Author Topic: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament or When to ask others to refrain  (Read 9750 times)

John_Hannah

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Mrs. Meyer has posted here that she voted for Obama, "with reservations."

I'd be interested to hear from her, or others, who did the same thing, what those reservations were, and why they did not prevent her, or others, from voting for Obama.

Thanks.

It just means that no candidate is perfect. I always vote "with reservations," that being the case.

Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

BPWandrey

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Others have raised the point on here already, but I wonder if there could be a bit more of a "fleshing" this out.

It appears to me that many people are proposing that in all reality a Christian voter should decide their vote on one issue, and one issue only: the issue of "life". It would seem that the RC priest, with which this post began, feels this way. It would appear that a personal friend of mine, Fr Jay Scott Newman, echoes this position. And it also appears that many who have commented on this forum feel the same way.

But the point has been raised: what is a Christian voter to do, who is against abortion, but also finds themself for or against other "life" issues (which they disagree with the other candidate on)? They find themself in a tough position and they might decide that one issue, in this case abortion, cannot be the sole issue that decides their vote. What are they to do other than follow their conscience, as uneasy as that one issue may make them, as uneasy as giving tacit "approval" to that one issue makes them?

Doesn't a Christian also have an opinion on so many other issues that must be weighed with the important "life" issues?

If not, if there is only one real vote that a Christian can cast (unless there are two "pro-life" (which needs definition) candidates) and that is a vote for the candidate that is "pro-life", and if an ecclesial body wants to bind its members to that vote, then what kind of "vote" is that, really? One is being left without a choice except for the choice that is being made for them. And what kind of liberty is that? What kind of democracy does one find themself in when an "authority" tells its "members" that if they have voted in such-a-such way then they have indeed voted incorrectly and need to repent?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 07:46:35 AM by Bryce P. Wandrey »

swbohler

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Rev. Wandrey,

I don't think it is so much that voters ought to base their decision ONLY on one issue, but rather that one issue may override all others.  In this case, if government cannot (or will not) protect life -- which is government's primary obligation -- then it is not worth retaining, or electing, that government.

Dan Fienen

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Voters should vote for the candidate that in their judgment will do the best job of serving in the office for which they are elected.  A president has many duties and many functions.  If a voter should decide that as far as he is concerned the most important duty is to look good at public appearances, then he should vote for the candidate that looks the best (John Edwards anyone?).  I think such a judgment is wrong, but have no actual Biblical basis for the judgment since the Bible does not actually talk about qualifications for president.

Especially in these kingdom of the left issues, we need to acknolwledge that these are issues about which sincere Christians will disagree.  Protection of life is something that Christians are concerned about, it is important to us, but that also is multifaceted.  Abortion should be a consideration, but also poverty issues, environmental policy, conduct of foreign policy (which includes war), etc.  Different Christians will place relative importance in various ways among all these considerations.  No candidate is likely to think just like me - I will like his stands in some areas better than others.  Deficencies in one are may be compensated by strengths in others.

For some Christians, abortion may be the number one issue that trumps all others.  For others, that may still be important but they view other issues of comparable importance.  We certainly can disagree with each other, and argue for our own view, but not to right someone out of the kingdom because they did not vote the way we did.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

swbohler

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What good are low taxes if life is not protected?  What good is a sound economy if life is not protected?  What good are fine roads or schools or mass transit if life is not protected?  If life is not protected -- if government does not value and treasure EVERY life -- what good does any of it do?  If that life in womb is not as valuable and protected and safe as mine, what reason do I have to think that my life will be safe tomorrow?

Brian Stoffregen

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What good are low taxes if life is not protected?  What good is a sound economy if life is not protected?  What good are fine roads or schools or mass transit if life is not protected?  If life is not protected -- if government does not value and treasure EVERY life -- what good does any of it do?  If that life in womb is not as valuable and protected and safe as mine, what reason do I have to think that my life will be safe tomorrow?

However, our nation is founded on: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Why should the protection of life be more important than the protection of liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

grabau14

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Why were they placed in that order?   Without the protection of life there is no liberty and happiness; just as without liberty there is no chance for happiness.

jrubyaz

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Dan,

This is your second common sense post in one day.  Keep it up and you may give Richard a run for the title of "Most exalted grand poo-bah"   ;D!    

Jeff Ruby

Voters should vote for the candidate that in their judgment will do the best job of serving in the office for which they are elected.  A president has many duties and many functions.  If a voter should decide that as far as he is concerned the most important duty is to look good at public appearances, then he should vote for the candidate that looks the best (John Edwards anyone?).  I think such a judgment is wrong, but have no actual Biblical basis for the judgment since the Bible does not actually talk about qualifications for president.

Especially in these kingdom of the left issues, we need to acknolwledge that these are issues about which sincere Christians will disagree.  Protection of life is something that Christians are concerned about, it is important to us, but that also is multifaceted.  Abortion should be a consideration, but also poverty issues, environmental policy, conduct of foreign policy (which includes war), etc.  Different Christians will place relative importance in various ways among all these considerations.  No candidate is likely to think just like me - I will like his stands in some areas better than others.  Deficencies in one are may be compensated by strengths in others.

For some Christians, abortion may be the number one issue that trumps all others.  For others, that may still be important but they view other issues of comparable importance.  We certainly can disagree with each other, and argue for our own view, but not to right someone out of the kingdom because they did not vote the way we did.

Dan

Steven Tibbetts

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Why should the protection of life be more important than the protection of liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


Ah, Brian.  The problem is that life is being protected visibly less than liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Worse, it is being protected not at all when it is most vulnerable.  

Then again, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (as understood by the Founding Fathers) have been pretty much tromped on, too.

Of course, apart from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are just abstractions.  

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mariemeyer

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Mrs. Meyer has posted here that she voted for Obama, "with reservations."

I'd be interested to hear from her, or others, who did the same thing, what those reservations were, and why they did not prevent her, or others, from voting for Obama.

Paul:

As stated previously I disagree with the PE's support of abortion.  As I processed his platform I voted for him because I feel it is more likely that he will work toward reducing the number of abortions in the United Sates than it is for Roe v Wade to be  overturned in the near future.  I also think his international policies toward developing nations may result in fewer women dying in child birth.   

Marie Meyer

ptmccain

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Mrs. Meyer, thanks. I'm wondering how he will be reducing the number of abortions, when he has promised very clearly that he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act. Your thoughts?

PrSabin

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       And to follow up with Iowakatie's post, here is one more story to check out, from a report done earlier this fall by ABC News:

   http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5627305&page=1

     This story out of Memphis, Tenn. is the other side of the tragedy.  These babies are not being aborted, but they are dying nonetheless.  I do not raise this as an argument for abortion; one tragedy doesn't make another one acceptable.  But there is more to this whole issue of abortion and decisions about life in the womb than "women who just don't want their babies."

     As Katie said, we need to go out and be the church.

I believe that Pastor Wolf is on the right track here. In my opinion, the Church’s witness to the sanctity of human life in its opposition to abortion is most effective and most persuasive when it is a part of a comprehensive life ethic. An ethic which in addition to opposing abortions, advocates for work, bread, and dignity (including housing and health care) for all human creatures, responsible reproduction, opposition to the death penalty, the repudiation of nuclear weapons, and a scrupulous application of the just war doctrine.

In addition, such a life ethic must also acknowledge and address the situation of those who make life and death decisions without the necessary resources, support, and encouragement to sustain human dignity from life’s beginning to its natural end.

John_Hannah

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Mrs. Meyer, thanks. I'm wondering how he will be reducing the number of abortions, when he has promised very clearly that he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act. Your thoughts?

Paul:

Unfortunately, the present Executive Order prohibiting abortion under federal auspices does not actually reduce abortions. It simply sends them elsewhere.

Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Harvey_Mozolak

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I have asked this before in an abortion discussion and has been met with silence.  I know something of the Roman Catholic answer.  What is our Lutheran (albeit divided as we always are) answer (or answers) to the question-- what is the salvic state of those people who are aborted?  And what does our view of such salvation or condemnation or lack of knowledge/certainty have to day to our postion on abortion in the first place?  (Universalists need not respond, please)   Harvey Mozolak
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http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

Jay

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Above all, let us not wallow in the "possibilities" of what effect a pro-abortion president might have on this nation.  Let us go out and be the church.

Agreed!

And, greetings from a fellow Iowan.