Author Topic: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament or When to ask others to refrain  (Read 9752 times)

Keith Falk

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/?gt1=43001

A Roman Catholic priest in North Carolina is telling his parishoners who voted for Obama to not receive Holy Communion until they have made confession for doing such an act - since Obama is such a strong pro-choice supporter.  The wording, of course, is much much different in the article...

I've heard the debate about whether or not to commune the candidates (Kerry '04 comes to mind) who support the pro-choice side of things, but this next step was something I had not heard of before.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 04:25:00 PM by Keith Falk »
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 11:58:42 PM »
How would he know?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dave_Poedel

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 01:05:35 AM »
Those of us in the  STS might recognize the name of the priest in question in this article...wasn't he our guest a few years back?

Samuel_Zumwalt

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 01:51:17 AM »
As Richard pointed out, this would be rather difficult to tackle.  On the other hand, leading pro-choice politicians that are practicing Roman Catholics are quite a different matter.  I keep wondering when, as Neuhaus pointed out in First Things, enough bishops are going to have the courage to take this one head on (he mentioned a certain one in the nation's capital).  If they ever do this, they'll be soundly thrashed by the anti-Roman bigots in the press and intelligentsia, but they will actually be putting into practice Roman Catholic teaching.

Keith Falk

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2008, 08:55:10 AM »
How would he know?

Beats me - first question my wife asked me when I told her about it. 
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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2008, 11:07:01 AM »
What Fr. Newman (at St. Mary's, Greenville, South Carolina) said in the parish bulletin was:

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exits constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christís Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation."

I think this overlooks an important distinction between the political action of voting for or against abortion (which political representatives do and which is not a prudential judgment) and the action of voters electing representatives and officials and who must estimate what effect a particular office can have on an issue (a president cannot outlaw abortion; he or she can only appoint a supreme court justice, who might then vote to overturn Roe v. Wade; which would itself then return to matter to the states, who then would have to decide) and whether this particular candidate would in fact carry through on what they say.  The latter are prudential judgments, to be weighed with other prudential judgments, on which even those who oppose abortion as an inherent evil which should be outlawed can disagree.

Michael Root

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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 11:22:21 AM »
How would he know?

It's irrelevant whether or not he knows. Read what is written:

"A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama ..."

So, what's the problem? Does it state anywhere that the priest is going to refrain from distributing the Sacrament to anyone?

I'm always amazed at the knee-jerk lib response to someone telling another that they shouldn't do something...as if it's an infringement on their "rights"...and then the Nazi card is played. ("No communion/Christ for you" ala "No soup for you!" by Seinfeld's Soup-Nazi.)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 11:24:31 AM by dgkirch »
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Keith Falk

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2008, 01:46:38 PM »
First time I've ever been accused of having a knee-jerk liberal response to... well, anything.  Guess it is all a matter of perspective.  I thought the "No Christ for you" would bring a bit of levity; in no way, shape, or form was I accusing the priest of being a Nazi.  That takes an incredible leap, not to mention going far afield in terms of putting the best possible construction on my initial post.

The problem is well-stated by Dr. Root which I will restate much less eloquently - there is a difference between voting on an issue/act/legislation regarding abortion and voting for a candidate who will be making those votes.
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 01:52:30 PM »
Oh, goodness. Don't be so thin-skinned. the article that I read had a "No communion for you" caption. Do you think that was no reference to the "No soup for you!" Soup-Nazi? Come on!

And if you were not simply paraphrasing the article caption, then are you saying you intended no reference to the Soup-Nazi- that "No Christ for you" is a phrase you would commomnly use? Or, if you simply intended levity then why use the Soup-Nazi, especially since the priest never has done what you allege him to have done?

You folks gotta lighten up.
Don Kirchner

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Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 01:54:19 PM »
How would he know?

Beats me - first question my wife asked me when I told her about it. 

Could it be the same way that LC-MS pastors recognize ELCA Lutherans?

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 01:57:09 PM »
How would he know?

Beats me - first question my wife asked me when I told her about it. 

Could it be the same way that LC-MS pastors recognize ELCA Lutherans?

Well, it is tattooed on the back of their necks...
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Keith Falk

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2008, 01:59:05 PM »
Oh, goodness. Don't be so thin-skinned. the article that I read had a "No communion for you" caption. Do you think that was no reference to the "No soup for you!" Soup-Nazi? Come on!

And if you were not simply paraphrasing the article caption, then are you saying you intended no reference to the Soup-Nazi- that "No Christ for you" is a phrase you would commomnly use? Or, if you simply intended levity then why use the Soup-Nazi, especially since the priest never has done what you allege him to have done?

You folks gotta lighten up.

I did mis-read the initial article - as you rightly pointed out, he is not necessarily refraining from distributing the sacrament, he is telling people not to receive if they voted for Obama.  A nuance that I overlooked, which will be corrected in my first post.

As to the Soup Nazi... if you think that the Soup Nazi and Nazi are the same things, then I'm not the only one who needs to lighten up.
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 02:07:16 PM »
"As to the Soup Nazi... if you think that the Soup Nazi and Nazi are the same things, then I'm not the only one who needs to lighten up."

Perhaps we should ask Jerry Seinfeld?

Let's see...

Example 1: Democratic candidate (or Minnesota Secretary of State Mark Ritchie) views a video clip that shows him saying X. His response: "I did not say X."

Example 2:  A "person of color" is not a "colored person." A person of wealth is not a wealthy person. A person of strength is not a strong person.

Example 3:  I did not call the Soup Nazi a Nazi. They are not the same thing, and any reference to a Soup Nazi is not a reference to a Nazi; it's a reference to soup. Well, no, not that either. It's...

I think I'm starting to get this. Post modernistic, subjective reality on steroids.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:41:30 PM by dgkirch »
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Keith Falk

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2008, 02:15:28 PM »
Clearly we're going to keep talking past another on the Soup Nazi v. Nazi (btw - an excellent explanation on "person of color" v. "colored person" was offerred elsewhere).  You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong.  We can keep going 'round and 'round on this, if you want, but perhaps we should do it via messages and not clutter up the thread with our person back and forth.

Back to your regular posting program.
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: When to refrain from distributing the sacrament -or- No Christ for you!
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 02:40:35 PM »
Michael Root,

Nice post.  We had a pastor put out a signed letter to the editor in a pretty major newspaper some time ago stating that to vote for Bill Clinton was blasphemy.  Along the lines of instrinsic evil.  I informed him that my own voting practice had been for many years to cast my vote for the Right to Life candidate (when there was one), since I knew then that my single most important issue had been addressed directly by my vote.  But that I did not state as the District President that anyone who did not vote Right to Life was a blasphemer. 

And I said that he would have been ok to express his opinion in the newspaper as a citizen, but by putting his Rev. and parish in there he was basically excommunicating or imperiling the faith any of his own parishioners who voted for Clinton and fending off any unrepentant Clintonites before they entered his sanctuary and stepping over a finely drawn two kingdoms line.  He disagreed completely with me, and said I was the only person who had not simply congratulated him.

The argumentation that the president does not make the law on abortion rights or reversal is interesting to me, because it doesn't get made very much.  How does level of influence play into that argumentation?  In other words, the president is not the lawmaker, but has tremendous influence in the selection of the lawmaker/justice as one member (in the Supreme Court) of a team of nine.  That influence can't be dismissed, can it?  And there are levels of influence - direct and indirect.  I guess you'd have to be an ethicist to put the logic out there completely.  That's why I'm asking.

Dave Benke