Politics as cult

[grabau14]

So Pr. Johnson, you don't find it disturbing that there are people who view Obama as a "messiah"?  Or do you believe him when he says that when he's elected the earth will cool and the planet will heal?  Anyway, I find it disturbing that Christians support a man who defends infanticide.   

Jeff,
 Hannity, Rush, Mark Levin and the rest will not be allowed to have a radio program with Obama as president.  If Pelosi and her ilk get a super-majority, the so-called "fairness doctrine" will get passed and Obama will sign.  Also, Pelosi has a "hate crime" bill on her desk that deals with the church and homosexuality (I forget the bill number).  This bill will be passed and Obama will sign.  Pelosi and Reed have a 100 day plan.  So you can be happy with your victory, but the country will suffer for it.

Obama will make me long for the Clinton years because Clinton at least had Newt to reign him in.

[jrubyaz]

Yes, but I am not a liberal or a moderate....lol  Besides, Hannity and O'Reilly and Limbaugh  are wrong. 

Sure, I will engage in hyperbole  if only to prove a point.

It seems very fascinating that we can't even argue anymore...i.e. point by point, with substance, without someone saying you are using "talking points" or parroting "Fox/ MSNBC".

I supposed years ago people blamed newspapers or editors, but I would prefer to be judged by the merits of an argument, such as the good back and forth Peter and I had about hunger, or the discussion of SCOTUS that many had on this forum, rather than be accused of being part of the vast liberal media conspiracy. 

There is also something going on that is quite interesting , and that is that the moderates or so called liberals on this forum are not saying that conservatives are mindless automons of Fox or Rush Limbaugh. However,  MSNBC and Keillor and others have been lambasted from the right.

I think that the vast majority, probably 70- 80% of Americans, give a lot of thought to their positions. The remaining  percentage are  listening to media of either fringe and form their opinions around those personalities.

One thing is sure, I am guessing that Hannity, Limabaugh, O'Reilly  and their kind will win either way...if Sen Obama is elected, they have four years of hating, if Sen McCain gets in they will be happy.

Let's be clear about one thing, Jeff:  You were the first one to use the "talking points" brush -- http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=1294.msg71800#msg71800 -- when you used it on me. That you now decry it so bitterly is ironic at best. In that same linked-to post, you also likened me to O'Reilly and/or Hannity in spouting FOX talking points, so your contention above (wherein you state that such has not been done by the "moderates or so called liberals on this forum" is not true.

And, as for your final sentence, why are you being so one-sided? All the pundits will still be in business no matter who wins. To paint with an overly-broad brush, if McCain wins, MSNBC/CNN get to "hate", while if Obama wins FOX gets to "hate". But in reality, the pundits will bloviate & spew forth no matter who is in the Oval Office.

-ghp

[jrubyaz]

Matthew,

If you followed this whole thread, you will know there is a difference between a fringe element who thinks Sen Obama is the messiah and HE believing in that himself. He has not evidenced that at all.

Also, as usual the quote is taken out of context. He was referring to environmental policies that will stop global warming (cool) and heal the earth from environmental disdain. I am not a big believer in global warming myself, but who can argue against helping the environment? I believe it is called stewardship.

Please don't indicate that Sen Obama will be a censor. He has given no indication of that.  Fears will run rampant , but he may just give everyone some pleasant surprises. I don't believe if Sen McCain wins he will shut down the liberal outlets, so spare us the exaggerations.

Jeff Ruby

So Pr. Johnson, you don't find it disturbing that there are people who view Obama as a "messiah"?  Or do you believe him when he says that when he's elected the earth will cool and the planet will heal?  Anyway, I find it disturbing that Christians support a man who defends infanticide.   

Jeff,
 Hannity, Rush, Mark Levin and the rest will not be allowed to have a radio program with Obama as president.  If Pelosi and her ilk get a super-majority, the so-called "fairness doctrine" will get passed and Obama will sign.  Also, Pelosi has a "hate crime" bill on her desk that deals with the church and homosexuality (I forget the bill number).  This bill will be passed and Obama will sign.  Pelosi and Reed have a 100 day plan.  So you can be happy with your victory, but the country will suffer for it.

Obama will make me long for the Clinton years because Clinton at least had Newt to reign him in.

[grabau14]

Jeff,

Has he done anything to stop this "messiah worship"?  It also seems that you have turned him into a "cult" figure, after all how can you justify supporting a man who defends infanticide?  Oh, that's right, it's just one issue among many.  Have you ever stopped and considered that the reason why our society has stopped caring for the poor is because we have stopped caring for the unborn? 

[jrubyaz]

Matthew,

I have never voted for someone on the basis of popularity. I have voted for some winners and losers since 1980.

Your sarcastic comment adds nothing.....I clearly stated abortion is an important issue. I also think there are many important issues in this election. You are free to disagree. There are many Christians who are voting for both candidates. Making it seem you can only vote for one is part of the polarization our nation has undergone in the past 20 years or so . I don't appreciate being told , as some are, that are damned for their vote. That began with the far right saying if you voted for Gore or Kerry you are not a Christian.  That does not reflect anything remotely Christ-like to me. 

Jeff Ruby

Jeff,

Has he done anything to stop this "messiah worship"?  It also seems that you have turned him into a "cult" figure, after all how can you justify supporting a man who defends infanticide?  Oh, that's right, it's just one issue among many.  Have you ever stopped and considered that the reason why our society has stopped caring for the poor is because we have stopped caring for the unborn? 

[jrubyaz]

I don't know, has Gov Palin done anything to counter her goddess worship from some conservatives?

Jeff Ruby

Jeff,

Has he done anything to stop this "messiah worship"? 

[grabau14]

For the record, I am for Ron Paul (talk about a messiah complex amongst his followers) 

Anyway

You know that he will appoint justices that will make it harder to overturn Roe v. Wade.  You can kiss parental notification goodbye.  You can kiss partial birth abortion ban goodbye.  It's not just the man in the office, it is those who he appoints to life-long positions.   It is a congress that will have all the votes needed to push their agenda with a willing signer.

You still haven't explained how you can support a man who voted 4 times to kill a baby that was born from a botched abortion?   Apparently, this was an important issue for him since he did not vote "present" in the state legislature.

[jrubyaz]

Matthew,

On election eve I am not going to delve into the history of Sen Obama's votes that were discussed ad nauseam on several threads. Suffice to say,  I don't believe he has the reckless disregard for life you make him out to have , even while not agreeing completely with where he stands.

My rationale is as follows, which you may or may not agree with. I believe he is the leader  who is the most intelligent, forward looking and innovative. I believe his youth is a good thing. I think he presents a calmness in crisis.I also believe he knows we need to be strong and forceful while also communicating with other nations, something we have been sadly lacking. He will surround himself with intelligent people .He asks good questions. He is not a cowboy.

But to the question you asked, I am comforted by a system of checks and balances. The three justices most likely to retire from SCOTUS are all liberal. Liberals will not gain under Obama, neither will conservatives. I don't think it is a bad thing to have a SCOTUS that is somewhat split in ideology, I would be scared to have them all far left or far right.

It does concern me having a Congress and President of the same party, but the GOP had it for a number of years and flunked, I can't see how the Democrats can do a whole lot worse. And in two years we can throw them out. However, they may surprise us. And , I think Barack will move hard center. He has to.

As a hopefully thoughtful fiscal conservative and moderate to conservative on social issues, I am certainly not the only one who is voting for Barack . I do so with some questions, but I can't bring myself to vote for my home state Senator. He was a different man in 2000. Now he was captured by Rovian aides and the very man who destroyed him in 2000 has now destroyed him again.

 I know my home state senator  quite well, have even voted for him before.  He is a  great patriot and soldier but should have been President 8 years ago, not now. However, if he is elected, I will honor him and pray for him, as I would for anyone. The fact it is dead even in Arizona and he might lose his home state, something even Walter Mondale did not have happen to him in 1984, is telling.

Jeff Ruby

[Steven Tibbetts]

Secondly, don't gay Americans deserve equal protection under the law?

Gay Americans already have equal protection under the law. 

Sen. Obama's speech is loaded with red herrings. 

And the moment a same-sex couple files a tax return as "married," or a same-sex "spouse" files for Social Security benefits, the definition of marriage has become a federal matter.  These are benefits and privileges that have been granted specifically to assist husbands and wives and their children.  They are not rights and "protections" for every individual citizen

spt+

[Steven Tibbetts]

Those of you who speak with such disdain about Senator Obama: if he is elected president of the United States, will you regularly pray for him in your liturgies? Will you speak of him with the respect that seems (at least to me) to be required by the 4th commandment?

Yes,  And given that at Zion we pray for the President of the United States, the Governor of Illinois, and the Mayor of Peoria every Sunday by name, I can actually point to a long record of regularly praying for elected officials regardless of whether I hold any one of them in great respect, deep contempt, a combination of the two, or somewhere in-between.

pax, spt+

[Lutheran_Lay_Leader]

So Pr. Johnson, you don't find it disturbing that there are people who view Obama as a "messiah"? 

Should not the level to which one feels "disturbed" by such a think be proportional to the number of people who actually think that way? Should one be equally disturbed if a very few people in the tin foil hat set believe something that outrageous as one would be if one out of every four people believe that?

If a few misguided souls fall for such hogwash, then isn't our duty as Christians to see that tiny handful of people as being in need of the same sort of care and healing as the people who believe they are the reincarnation of Napoleon or suffer from some other similar mental disconnect with reality? Is the proper reaction to a few people suffering from a form a madness to pray that they return to good mental health or should it be to exploit and repeat their delusions in hopes of getting others to share in the delusion?

[LCMS87]

For the record, I am for Ron Paul (talk about a messiah complex amongst his followers) 

Now that's a Theology of the Cross!

[Layman Randy]

For the record, I am for Ron Paul (talk about a messiah complex amongst his followers) 

Now that's a Theology of the Cross!

Exit polls as of this hour (not that exit polls are very precise) are showing Ron Paul at 4% in Montana (where he won the Republican presidential primary) and therefore Barack Obama several points ahead of John McCain in the race for Montana's electoral votes.

Could continue the interesting series of third party or populist candidates with cult-like followings (not saying the candidates held themselves up as Messiahs) that has changed national results over the years -- If I recall correctly, didn't Ross Perot's results put Bill Clinton over the top in enough states to win, and didn't  Ralph Nader's percentage in one or two states push GWBush over the top?  Did Strom Thurmond's results in 1948 put Truman over Dewey? 

How has/does/might the "vote of conviction" for a candidate who will most assuredly not win, but could prove to be a spoiler, affect the governance of our nation?

[swbohler]

Rev. Uttenreither writes: "Have you ever stopped and considered that the reason why our society has stopped caring for the poor is because we have stopped caring for the unborn?"

A most profound comment.  Thank you, Rev. Uttenreither.

[Lutheran_Lay_Leader]

It does concern me having a Congress and President of the same party, but the GOP had it for a number of years and flunked,

Sadly, that's a very misleading semi-fact. Though for a while there were a majority of people in Congress with an "R" after their names, there were enough RINOs who sided with the Democrats on some issues to make the GOP majority almost an illusion. It was a situation very similar to back in the 40's and 50's when the "Dixiecrat" Democrats sided with the Republicans often enough to make the majority of people in Congress labeled with a "D" an illusion.

Anyone who simply glanced at the surface of issues would never notice what I just mentioned, but anyone who paid attention to stories of what bills got stalled in committees and what bills had major compromises before going to the floor for a vote would see the impact of the Dixiecrats in the 40's and 50's and the impact of the RINO's in the 90's and 00's.

How has/does/might the "vote of conviction" for a candidate who will most assuredly not win, but could prove to be a spoiler, affect the governance of our nation?

It's one of the most damaging aspects of how our electoral system functions. There are simply too many people who are just clueless about how politics actually work, and who'll throw their votes away on candidates like Ron Paul or Ralph Nader to effective vote for that which they oppose the most.