Author Topic: Politics as cult  (Read 15909 times)

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2008, 01:50:34 PM »
xxxxx xxxxxxxxx writes:

I respond:


xxxxx xxxxxxxxx writes:

I comment:

For what it is worth, regardless of who uses the technique of inserting "so-and-so wrote" above cut & pasted (or re-typed) material from others, and "I respond" or "I comment" above the poster's own words, I shall ignore any and all such posts that use that format. I will not ignore any person or participant. I shall only ignore posts made in that manner. I strongly suggest that others who find that using that particular technique causes problems follow suit if they choose to.

However, no one should in any way, shape, or form construe my comment as being directed against any particular person. It is only about a technique for quoting others within a reply, not about any person or persons who might choose to use that technique.

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2008, 04:28:30 PM »


Thank you Pastor Tibbetts, that is the case. I was uncharitable to Charles and I did remove the post, however,  what he quoted was not  exactly what I had written. That is why I put the emoticon I did,   ??? .

 My apologies to anyone I offended, especially Charles. 

However, that is past tense. I do agree that in the future using the quote feature  would be helpful and avoid this type of situation. Those that post in the way Mr. Erdner stated run the risk of a lot of misquoting. Of course, it is also not proper etiquette.

Jeff Ruby

 

For one who is so insistent on both sources and accuracy, there has been a terrible failure at both.  Again, by not using the Quote feature on the board, you have no proof that what you are alleging was actually stated by Pastor Ruby -

FWIW, the quote you and Pr. Austin are disputing was in a post by Pr. Ruby that I read.  That the post is no longer there suggests that the thought better of a heated, unhelpful comment, and had withdrawn it -- if not necessarily quickly enough for it to have gone unread.

pax, spt+

JoshuaEM

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2008, 10:44:36 AM »
So maybe this a non-starter or is just hopelessly out of context on this late page in this now well-worn thread, but I'm wondering, as per the 'Politics as Cult' subject, if anyone saw Senator McCain or Governor Palin on SNL and if so, what did y'all think? Funny, tacky, amusingly self-effacing, good campaign ploy?

Josh 'the election's decided before we left coasters even get to vote' E-M

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2008, 02:45:04 PM »
if anyone saw Senator McCain or Governor Palin on SNL and if so, what did y'all think? Funny, tacky, amusingly self-effacing, good campaign ploy?

All of the above. Though it has nothing to do with the "politics as cult" them, there is a strong sentiment that people should vote for the person rather than the party, platform, or ideology. In this day and age, coming across as likeable in a personal way seems to trump good ideas or strong qualifications. Look at the previous President. Whether one agreed or disagreed with his principles (or lack thereof), no one could deny that he was a likeable person. It seems that the America public will overlook felony perjury and selling military secrets to the Red Chinese in return for campaign contributions so long as the person doing those things seems like a nice, pleasant person. So, in 2008, the modern campaign equivalent of kissing babies is to demonstrate that you're a pleasant, nice person with a sense of humor by going on Saturday Night Live.

 

rcephd

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2008, 05:55:26 PM »
No, the modern equivalent to kissing babies is to threaten, and intimidate, and wage personal destruction against anyone who dares so much as to  mention your middle name, or ask an embarrassing question. I have been lurking here for a long time and you people slay me. The world economic system is in meltdown, thanks to legislation pushed througn under Jimmy Carter, and gross malfeasance by democrat-ruled oversight committees. Civil liberties are under attack in a way never before seen in my 62 years of life (Which one of you children can cite the equivalent of the proposed  "Civilian Security Force" anywhere outside the Brownshirts). We have a presidential candidate who has announced for the record his intention to bankrupt the US energy system. And who has made clear by his own words that "If political winds turn ugly" he "will stand with the muslims" (re: Israel.). And you guys hyperventilate about trivia like SNL. Sheesh.

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2008, 07:27:49 PM »

Who are you and why don't you sign your name? Are you afraid to sign your name to your post because it is so outlandish?

I suppose the size of government increasing 40% in the last 7 years had nothing to do with the executive branch?

Jeff Ruby

No, the modern equivalent to kissing babies is to threaten, and intimidate, and wage personal destruction against anyone who dares so much as to  mention your middle name, or ask an embarrassing question. I have been lurking here for a long time and you people slay me. The world economic system is in meltdown, thanks to legislation pushed througn under Jimmy Carter, and gross malfeasance by democrat-ruled oversight committees. Civil liberties are under attack in a way never before seen in my 62 years of life (Which one of you children can cite the equivalent of the proposed  "Civilian Security Force" anywhere outside the Brownshirts). We have a presidential candidate who has announced for the record his intention to bankrupt the US energy system. And who has made clear by his own words that "If political winds turn ugly" he "will stand with the muslims" (re: Israel.). And you guys hyperventilate about trivia like SNL. Sheesh.

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2008, 09:19:08 PM »
And you guys hyperventilate about trivia like SNL. Sheesh.

Hyperventilate? Hardly!

When I was being trained to prepare sermons, one of the best pieces of advice I received was to remember that one cannot cram every single detail about the Good News into every single sermon. That's why a preacher preaches at least 52 of them a year, year after year. That same principle applies in internet forums. I won't dispute that the serious issues you raise are important. Some of them have been discussed in this thread or others.

But a candidate's appearance on a television show is a valid thing to consider within the larger context of the election and politics in general. I believe that most of the problems this nation face that might be traced to having the wrong people elected to office are the direct result of people being guided by their emotions instead of their intellects in selecting who to vote for. Sadly, some of the Presidential candidates who would have possibly been the best leaders for this nation are those who failed to make it through more than a few early primary elections, and who never even got close to getting the nomination, let alone the getting elected President.

It also needs to be said that another probably more serious reason for the nation's problems is the constant erosion of the Church's position as a source of moral education and God's Grace. But given two problems, and the nature of forums such as these, the problem of the decline of the Church's influence is grist for other threads. This thread is about politics, specifically about the sad fact that too many people look to the state and political leaders for the things that they should look to God and God's church to find. The premise that one candidate is depicted as a quasi-mystical messiah figure is part of some sort of new pseudo religion is a gross exaggeration of reality, but it is based on a small kernel of reality.

No political leader can accomplish anything of importance without first getting elected. The tactics required to get elected in the United States in 2008 might appear trivial. Indeed, they often are trivial. But given how many people don't have a clue about how American politics works, especially those who are voters, the candidate who ignores such trivia ends up having the same amount of influence over America's future as people like Micheal Dukakis, Ross Perot, and Bob Dole. They end up on the outside, looking in, powerless to do much of anything.

This election, like most Presidential elections in recent years will be close. A few minor shifts in the opinions of undecided voters that convinces them to choose one candidate or the other, or a a lack of campaign ads to energize either candidate's solid support base and the results could be very different from what the polls currently predict.

If McCain's appearance on Saturday Night Live convinces a few percent of the conservative Republicans who planned to stay home next Tuesday that even though he's a RINO, he's still an affable enough person to warrant going to the polls to vote, then it was a tactical move that would help his chances of getting elected.

So please, remember that a long, long journey takes many steps. There's nothing wrong with discussing one or two of the steps along the way. I'm a student of history, especially military history. Generals might plan massive military campaigns, but often the success or failure of those campaigns hinge on whether or not some platoon sergeant makes the right tactical decisions in a minor fire-fight. It might seem trivial in the larger scheme of things when looking at the stakes involved in winning or losing a war. But that doesn't mean that such minor details aren't meaningful and worth considering.

Jay

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2008, 10:27:39 PM »
And who has made clear by his own words that "If political winds turn ugly" he "will stand with the muslims" (re: Israel.).

That isn't even close to being true - it took me 5 seconds via a google search to find out the truth behind what you said. 

I think a modern application of the Eighth Commandment would include not repeating the ridiculous garbage that is spread through the internet and forwarded emails until checking the veracity of what is said. 

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_write_that_he_would_stand.html

Misleading e-mail: From Audacity of Hope: "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Actual quote from "The Audacity of Hope" [pg. 261]: Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2008, 10:30:36 PM »

Thanks for this Jay.  One of many in this campaign.

Jeff Ruby

And who has made clear by his own words that "If political winds turn ugly" he "will stand with the muslims" (re: Israel.).

That isn't even close to being true - it took me 5 seconds via a google search to find out the truth behind what you said. 

I think a modern application of the Eighth Commandment would include not repeating the ridiculous garbage that is spread through the internet and forwarded emails until checking the veracity of what is said. 

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_write_that_he_would_stand.html

Misleading e-mail: From Audacity of Hope: "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Actual quote from "The Audacity of Hope" [pg. 261]: Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2008, 06:13:02 AM »
factcheck.org huh? If one wants to "check veracity" why go to a site that belongs to the person under suspician.

One thing is true, we have never  seen such partisanship by so many before.

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2008, 06:15:58 AM »
Not sure what Jeff reads into our reading into. Obama equates the "hard stares" after 9/11 with the Japanese internments. 

Jay

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2008, 08:20:45 AM »
factcheck.org huh? If one wants to "check veracity" why go to a site that belongs to the person under suspician.



Did you even bother to look to see who they are?

http://www.factcheck.org/about/

"The Annenberg Political Fact Check is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. The APPC was established by publisher and philanthropist Walter Annenberg in 1994 to create a community of scholars within the University of Pennsylvania that would address public policy issues at the local, state and federal levels.

The APPC accepts NO funding from business corporations, labor unions, political parties, lobbying organizations or individuals. It is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation. "


Apparently you also didn't check to see that they have several articles debunking what has been said about McCain:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_trade_trickery.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/out_of_context_on_health_care.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_social_security_whopper.html


In any event, are you saying that their quotation directly from Obama's book is not accurate?  Here's another site with the quote:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ownwords.asp





anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2008, 08:51:25 AM »


Did you even bother to look to see who they are?

I remember the day they announced the beginning of the site. Even MSM said it was an Obama shadow.


anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2008, 08:54:16 AM »
By the way, "did you even bother" is no way to respond to someone-you had better deescalate or we are going to have the "getting testy" comments from moderators REAL quick.

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2008, 09:28:38 AM »

Hey Valentin,

Did you know that Annenberg was a great friend and buddy of Ronald Reagan's? That he was appointed ambassador to the UK by President Nixon? That he was a lifelong Republican?

There are some fact checks.  ;)

Jeff Ruby 



Did you even bother to look to see who they are?

I remember the day they announced the beginning of the site. Even MSM said it was an Obama shadow.