Author Topic: Politics as cult  (Read 14676 times)

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 01:29:31 PM »


If you want, I can find 20 American papers on Google that quoted it, that happened to be one that came up first. He said it. The fact you don't find that disturbing and have to dismiss the multiple sources because they don't agree with your view of the world is not rational debate.

Jeff Ruby

And I am in wonder that Americans are sourcing far-left English newspapers period, much less as some sort of credible  thing to be pointing to!

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2008, 01:33:05 PM »

If you look at Pastor's Wright's quotes in context, about 90 % of them are true-he goes wacko on the AIDS issue, but on everything else he is factual.

The quote "God d*** America" is the only thing people heard. Check the whole quote, and you will see something very similar to what the OT prophets said about Israel.

I would not have used his words, and I have my own beefs with his lifestyle of living above his people. However it actually disturbs me far more  that Pastor John Haggee endorsed John McCain, and that pastor believes we will end the world with nuclear war in the middle east and we have to support Israel at all costs is far more disturbing.

Jeff Ruby 
   




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

Jeff Ruby


We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex.
Really?  What's your evidence of that?  Let's be precise.  Misguided, mistaken, boneheaded, I could buy.
Thinking God is speaking to you and obeying Him makes you a Messiah?  Really?  Maybe an instrument of God or a prophet of the LORD, but I don't see anything messianic about this.  I'm not particularly comfortable with it, but that's something else entirely.  Seems to me the major difference between GWB and Jeremiah Wright is that the former had the power to act.

Sterling Spatz

« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:35:18 PM by jrubyaz »

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2008, 01:40:15 PM »


If you want, I can find 20 American papers on Google that quoted it, that happened to be one that came up first. He said it. The fact you don't find that disturbing and have to dismiss the multiple sources because they don't agree with your view of the world is not rational debate.

Jeff Ruby

And I am in wonder that Americans are sourcing far-left English newspapers period, much less as some sort of credible  thing to be pointing to!

So you knew the history of the Guardian? As to the rest I now have to run back and see what I was suposed to find so disturbing? I guess I'll be right back... (you really are turning into Brian S.)

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 01:47:39 PM »
"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 02:10:45 PM »


Forget the paper..there are multiple sources. Do your own homework on those , I don't have the time.

If you don't find it disturbing God told the President to start a war, which has cost 4,000 American lives, countless billions, and lasted five years while destroying our economy, I can't help you.

If he started it on the basis of national security, or that he really believed in WMD (as he originally said), than fine. One can debate that, and call it great or a crock.

But to hear God whisper go start this?

Any leader  who has God whispering in his ear to start war is a concern. Read Mark Twain's War Prayer

Jeff Ruby



If you want, I can find 20 American papers on Google that quoted it, that happened to be one that came up first. He said it. The fact you don't find that disturbing and have to dismiss the multiple sources because they don't agree with your view of the world is not rational debate.

Jeff Ruby

And I am in wonder that Americans are sourcing far-left English newspapers period, much less as some sort of credible  thing to be pointing to!

So you knew the history of the Guardian? As to the rest I now have to run back and see what I was suposed to find so disturbing? I guess I'll be right back... (you really are turning into Brian S.)

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 02:12:13 PM »

So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 02:14:22 PM »
I'm drawn back to the fact that with Obama we have someone to whom there is directly being ascribed overt Christian messianic imagery on/as a personal level/characteristic. That's the key data point, and the focus of interest, imo.

I notice that sentence was written in passive voice. The real issue isn't whether or not Obama is "directly being ascribed overt Christian messianic imagery". The real issue is who is it that is doing the describing? Can you name any credible, believable sources who are truly referring to Obama as some sort of messiah? I'm not talking about listing alleged journalists engaged in sensationalism and hyperbole. I'm talking about any single credible source who is genuinely saying that Obama is some sort of messiah?

I recall back in the 1970's when the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers was often referred to as "The Emperor". Again, that was the media engaging in hyperbole. No one then truly believed that Chuck Noll was really an Emperor. And no one with any sense in 2008 truly believes that Obama is really a messiah, no matter how much media hyperbole there is using those terms.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 02:32:22 PM »
If you look at Pastor's Wright's quotes in context, about 90 % of them are true-he goes wacko on the AIDS issue, but on everything else he is factual.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?  But seriously, other than being wrong about the current existence of WMD (and the implied threat they posed to us), how else was Bush wrong about the need to free Iraq of a tyrant (who was shooting at our planes almost every day, so it's not like we weren't there already)?  I don't mean to re-argue these things, I'm just trying to point out the selective forgiveness being applied here.

Quote from: jrubyaz
The quote "God d*** America" is the only thing people heard. Check the whole quote, and you will see something very similar to what the OT prophets said about Israel.
Hmmm, didn't I say/imply that last point?  Ah yes, I think I did, when I made the comparison between Wright and Bush.  So I wouldn't deny it...I'm saying why doesn't Bush get extended the same courtesy when he thinks God is speaking to/through him?  The orignal point was debunking Bush having a Messiah complex.  He's more Moses:  Let my those people go.

Quote from: jrubyaz
I would not have used his words, and I have my own beefs with his lifestyle of living above his people. However it actually disturbs me far more  that Pastor John Haggee endorsed John McCain, and that pastor believes we will end the world with nuclear war in the middle east and we have to support Israel at all costs is far more disturbing.
Ah, the moral equivalency with Pastor Haggee.  A mere endorsement, with no evidence he holds any sway over McCain's thinking, versus Obama who said that Wright was instrumental in his spiritual formation, with Wright a disciple of black liberation theology.  Judging from McCain's national political track record (think 2000 Republican primary), I think he detests these high profile Religious Right leaders.  But that's just me.

I hope you will note that I am not excusing Republican excesses, just trying to show they are not unique or even everything they are imagined to be.  As others have said, Republicans are far from pure.  But then politics ain't bean bag.
Sterling Spatz
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 02:35:30 PM »
If you don't find it disturbing God told the President to start a war, which has cost 4,000 American lives, countless billions, and lasted five years while destroying our economy, I can't help you.
See, you keep saying things like this that are unsubstantiated.  The war is not responsible for destroying our economy.  Unless you can show that somehow it made the issuance and packaging of shoddy mortgages possible.

Sterling Spatz
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anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 03:34:28 PM »

So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

If you truly wanted clarity I don't hink you would be going abou tit like this!

No, Jeff, what I thought you could understand is that nearly all leaders of nations who are at war have made the exact same statement. Do you want to go back and forth on that too?

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2008, 03:59:46 PM »


YEs, I am a student of history. I know Lincoln, Washington, and many others believed this.

My point was that combining a command of God with a war is a dangerous thing. Certainly, who am I to question the Almighty? He could speak to leaders.  But my guess is our God is a God of love and justice, not a God who wants us to initiate wars.

And my point is at best it is shoddy theology. If God told Saddam Hussein the same thing, who is right? Or remove the Muslim equation, the Prods and RC's in Ireland.   

If Bush wanted to be Iraq's savior, or Democracy's savior, so be it. It certainly seems that there are not many people agreeing with him, either theologically or on the ground.

Jeff Rub y

 


So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

If you truly wanted clarity I don't hink you would be going abou tit like this!

No, Jeff, what I thought you could understand is that nearly all leaders of nations who are at war have made the exact same statement. Do you want to go back and forth on that too?

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2008, 04:04:50 PM »


YEs, I am a student of history. I know Lincoln, Washington, and many others believed this.

My point was that combining a command of God with a war is a dangerous thing. Certainly, who am I to question the Almighty? He could speak to leaders.  But my guess is our God is a God of love and justice, not a God who wants us to initiate wars.

And my point is at best it is shoddy theology. If God told Saddam Hussein the same thing, who is right? Or remove the Muslim equation, the Prods and RC's in Ireland.   

If Bush wanted to be Iraq's savior, or Democracy's savior, so be it. It certainly seems that there are not many people agreeing with him, either theologically or on the ground.

Jeff Rub y

 


So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

If you truly wanted clarity I don't hink you would be going abou tit like this!

No, Jeff, what I thought you could understand is that nearly all leaders of nations who are at war have made the exact same statement. Do you want to go back and forth on that too?

Yes, war is just not a good brand anymore... I just stuck a fork in this one. What do you say we stick to arguing just in one thread? Which one?

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 04:15:41 PM »


Like the labels of bleeding heart liberal, methinks you are given to hyperbole. I look on this as a friendly forum with earnest, sometimes even heated discussion among brothers and sisters in Christ. There is strong moderation, but freedom also granted.

If you chose to see this as a war, then label away. Over the past two years I have a lot of discussions, learned a lot, agreed a lot, and disagreed a lot as well.

Such is  faith and life.

Jeff Ruby   




YEs, I am a student of history. I know Lincoln, Washington, and many others believed this.

My point was that combining a command of God with a war is a dangerous thing. Certainly, who am I to question the Almighty? He could speak to leaders.  But my guess is our God is a God of love and justice, not a God who wants us to initiate wars.

And my point is at best it is shoddy theology. If God told Saddam Hussein the same thing, who is right? Or remove the Muslim equation, the Prods and RC's in Ireland.   

If Bush wanted to be Iraq's savior, or Democracy's savior, so be it. It certainly seems that there are not many people agreeing with him, either theologically or on the ground.

Jeff Rub y

 


So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

If you truly wanted clarity I don't hink you would be going abou tit like this!

No, Jeff, what I thought you could understand is that nearly all leaders of nations who are at war have made the exact same statement. Do you want to go back and forth on that too?

Yes, war is just not a good brand anymore... I just stuck a fork in this one. What do you say we stick to arguing just in one thread? Which one?

anonymous

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2008, 04:23:22 PM »


Like the labels of bleeding heart liberal, methinks you are given to hyperbole. I look on this as a friendly forum with earnest, sometimes even heated discussion among brothers and sisters in Christ. There is strong moderation, but freedom also granted.

If you chose to see this as a war, then label away. Over the past two years I have a lot of discussions, learned a lot, agreed a lot, and disagreed a lot as well.

Such is  faith and life.

Jeff Ruby   




YEs, I am a student of history. I know Lincoln, Washington, and many others believed this.

My point was that combining a command of God with a war is a dangerous thing. Certainly, who am I to question the Almighty? He could speak to leaders.  But my guess is our God is a God of love and justice, not a God who wants us to initiate wars.

And my point is at best it is shoddy theology. If God told Saddam Hussein the same thing, who is right? Or remove the Muslim equation, the Prods and RC's in Ireland.   

If Bush wanted to be Iraq's savior, or Democracy's savior, so be it. It certainly seems that there are not many people agreeing with him, either theologically or on the ground.

Jeff Rub y

 


So, just to clarify, in your view, God initiated this war through our President, he was obedient, is God's servant, and we are righteous in this?

Jeff Ruby

"We have had a man in the White House the past 8 years with a Messiah complex."

That is what you meant? My goodness, so in your mind if someone discerns that God wants them do something they have a Messiah complex?!?! Here I would have labeled that generally as "being obedient."

As to the point that Bush would say that, it is a little remarkable, in fact it is almost anachronistic, why it reminds me of almost every leader before secularization struck us.

My goodness, he's almost as deranged as FDR, Lincoln and all the founding fathers! Somebody form a committee and recommend a course of action and then let's get the legislators to write a law and forbid this before somebody is is victimized by the Christian terrorists! :)

If you truly wanted clarity I don't hink you would be going abou tit like this!

No, Jeff, what I thought you could understand is that nearly all leaders of nations who are at war have made the exact same statement. Do you want to go back and forth on that too?

Yes, war is just not a good brand anymore... I just stuck a fork in this one. What do you say we stick to arguing just in one thread? Which one?

What I call it an intervention, Jeff, I just can't get hold of your other friends and family :)

Go back. I said "argue". That's as in "arguing points. War was what we were talking about in the previous point.
 

jrubyaz

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Re: Politics as cult
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2008, 05:15:45 PM »
 My apology if I misinterpreted. It was written a bit  vaguely , IMHO.

Jeff Ruby