Poll

Is The Papacy Still The Antichrist?

Yes, the Papacy is the Antichrist as the Lutheran Confessions say
11 (33.3%)
No, the Papacy was the Antichrist but Vatican II has changed things
4 (12.1%)
Don't know or care; not important to my ministry
5 (15.2%)
No, the Papacy has never been the Antichrist
13 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?  (Read 13426 times)

carlvehse

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2013, 11:04:05 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2013, 11:07:40 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;)  ;D
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

LutherMan

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2013, 11:10:15 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).
Apparently some LCMS'ers at this forum don't hold to a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.
Including some prominent ones...

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2013, 11:11:00 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) :P


Not ALPB polls?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2013, 11:14:30 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) :P


Not ALPB polls?

No.  ALPB is definitely hierarchical. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

George Erdner

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2013, 11:34:56 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) ;D


Though not a partisan or advocate for the ELCA, I've read more than a few posts in here where folks from the LCMS refer to votes taken at large, official gatherings to settle disputes. Granted, there's often the loophole that they only vote on interpreting or implementing doctrine, not the doctrine itself. That strikes me as picayune nitpicking.


If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

DCharlton

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2013, 11:57:00 PM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) ;D


Though not a partisan or advocate for the ELCA, I've read more than a few posts in here where folks from the LCMS refer to votes taken at large, official gatherings to settle disputes. Granted, there's often the loophole that they only vote on interpreting or implementing doctrine, not the doctrine itself. That strikes me as picayune nitpicking.


If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

Since I belong to the ELCA, I picked on the ELCA, in a reply to our friend Brian, who is also an ELCA pastor.  From a comment by John Hannah on another thread, it seems that some in the LCMS have a similar complaint about doctrine being submitted to majority vote.*  But since I do not belong to the LCMS, I did not include them in my attempt a humor.  Furthermore, "only in the _____________" is a familiar figure of speech that most people understand is not to be taken literally. 

*Actually, it seems from what I have read that such a complaint has been around for decades in the LCMS.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:01:46 AM by DCharlton »
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2013, 12:25:01 AM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) :P


Not ALPB polls?

No.  ALPB is definitely hierarchical.


True, I don't remember voting for our all-powerful moderators.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Tim Schenks

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2013, 02:11:43 AM »

If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

I think there are a lot of LCMS congregations who vote on doctrine who are not supposed to. For example, there are congregations who vote to have the Lord's Supper less often, when the Confessions do say that we offer the Supper every Lord's Day. The correct response to voting on doctrine is that you don't vote on it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 02:15:01 AM by Tim Schenks »

George Erdner

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2013, 04:32:48 AM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) ;D


Though not a partisan or advocate for the ELCA, I've read more than a few posts in here where folks from the LCMS refer to votes taken at large, official gatherings to settle disputes. Granted, there's often the loophole that they only vote on interpreting or implementing doctrine, not the doctrine itself. That strikes me as picayune nitpicking.


If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

Since I belong to the ELCA, I picked on the ELCA, in a reply to our friend Brian, who is also an ELCA pastor.  From a comment by John Hannah on another thread, it seems that some in the LCMS have a similar complaint about doctrine being submitted to majority vote.*  But since I do not belong to the LCMS, I did not include them in my attempt a humor.  Furthermore, "only in the _____________" is a familiar figure of speech that most people understand is not to be taken literally. 

*Actually, it seems from what I have read that such a complaint has been around for decades in the LCMS.


My apologies. I haven't memorized the denominational affiliations of everyone who participates in here.


It also seems to me that most of the doctrine we all are taught, and that we aren't supposed to vote on, was decided by a vote at some ecumenical council or gathering in the early church. Weren't things like the Nicene Creed decided by a vote of bishops?

Eileen Smith

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2013, 07:45:16 AM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) :P


Not ALPB polls?

No.  ALPB is definitely hierarchical.


True, I don't remember voting for our all-powerful moderators.

Would anyone really run for that position!

DCharlton

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2013, 07:49:58 AM »
An ALPB Antichrist poll does not supplant a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary).


Is doctrine determined by majority vote?

Only in the ELCA! ;) :P


Not ALPB polls?

No.  ALPB is definitely hierarchical.


True, I don't remember voting for our all-powerful moderators.

I think they get their position through a form of historic succession.   ;) :D
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

swbohler

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #88 on: December 29, 2013, 08:11:49 AM »

If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

I think there are a lot of LCMS congregations who vote on doctrine who are not supposed to. For example, there are congregations who vote to have the Lord's Supper less often, when the Confessions do say that we offer the Supper every Lord's Day. The correct response to voting on doctrine is that you don't vote on it.

Mr. Schenks,

The Confessions also say "We keep traditional liturgical forms, such as the order of the lessons, prayers, vestments, etc."  In fact, that is the very next sentence after the one that says "In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other festivals..."  So, are you wanting to say that those LCMS churches that do not use the "liturgical forms, such as the order of lessons, prayers, vestments, etc." as they did in Melanchthon's experience are not following Lutheran doctrine?  How about the use of German hymns, along with Latin hymns, as he writes is done "among us" in our observation of the Mass?

Tim Schenks

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2013, 08:49:08 AM »

If it takes a majority vote by some sort of official gathering of LCMS officials to decide whether or not the LCMS is in full communion fellowship with some other church body, that seems to me to be determining doctrinal issues by a majority vote. I'm not saying that the LCMS is wrong to decide such matters using that method. But it is hypocritical to even jest that only the ELCA does such things.

I think there are a lot of LCMS congregations who vote on doctrine who are not supposed to. For example, there are congregations who vote to have the Lord's Supper less often, when the Confessions do say that we offer the Supper every Lord's Day. The correct response to voting on doctrine is that you don't vote on it.

Mr. Schenks,

The Confessions also say "We keep traditional liturgical forms, such as the order of the lessons, prayers, vestments, etc."  In fact, that is the very next sentence after the one that says "In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other festivals..."  So, are you wanting to say that those LCMS churches that do not use the "liturgical forms, such as the order of lessons, prayers, vestments, etc." as they did in Melanchthon's experience are not following Lutheran doctrine?  How about the use of German hymns, along with Latin hymns, as he writes is done "among us" in our observation of the Mass?

The difference to me would be that Holy Communion is a major doctrinal article in the Confessions. Liturgical forms isn't a Means of Grace and doesn't have entire confessional articles assigned to it.

One should not make changes it offends members of the congregation.  Liturgy is not adiaphora.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:51:27 AM by Tim Schenks »