Poll

Is The Papacy Still The Antichrist?

Yes, the Papacy is the Antichrist as the Lutheran Confessions say
11 (33.3%)
No, the Papacy was the Antichrist but Vatican II has changed things
4 (12.1%)
Don't know or care; not important to my ministry
5 (15.2%)
No, the Papacy has never been the Antichrist
13 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?  (Read 13422 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2012, 10:00:13 AM »
Sad that 17 people still think the pope is the Anti-Christ.
Interesting to see that  21 think the pope never was the Anti-Christ.

George Erdner

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2012, 02:43:17 PM »
One definition of the Antichrist is:  one who denies or opposes Christ; specifically : a great antagonist expected to fill the world with wickedness but to be conquered forever by Christ at his second coming.  I don't think the Pope denies or opposes Christ in any way. He leads a church that doesn't conform to what we believe as Lutherans - but I cannot, in my lifetime, remember a Pope who denied Christ.  The Pope and priests of the church preach of the Incarnate love of Christ - His death, His resurrection, His ascension, His coming again. 

As well, when I hear the word Antichrist, I always go back to the Signorelli painting. Since I first saw it, I have always thought it as such a powerful statement of all that is evil.  In its simplicity, it makes a profound statement. We see one who not simply opposes or denies Christ, but is evil and manipulates those who are weak away from Christ.


That's all well and good except for one thing. The Antichrist will be following Satan, the great Deceiver. I wouldn't expect anyone attempting to promote an evil agenda through deceit and trickery to be upfront and honest about it.


Keith Falk

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2012, 04:43:17 PM »
Is asking "Is the papacy still the very antichrist?" any different from asking "Is the pope still the very antichrist?"  How might the wording difference affect responders?
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2012, 05:37:56 PM »
It seems to me that an issue that is raised is whether or not one can say that the pope is not the antichrist and still be faithful to the Lutheran Confessions.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Eileen Smith

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2012, 09:09:29 PM »
That's all well and good except for one thing. The Antichrist will be following Satan, the great Deceiver. I wouldn't expect anyone attempting to promote an evil agenda through deceit and trickery to be upfront and honest about it.


[/quote]

That's the point of the painting.  The figure of the one who is being manipulated is as beautiful as the paintings of Christ; however, another's hand extends through the robe, another voice whispers in his ear.  The painting allows that evil gives the appearance of beauty.

Is asking "Is the papacy still the very antichrist?" any different from asking "Is the pope still the very antichrist?"  How might the wording difference affect responders?

There were Popes who abused their power, authority, and office.  Does that make the papacy the Antichrist?  There are clergy who have abused their power, authority, and office.  Does that make the office of the ordained the antichrist?  No, it doesn't change my mind.

vicarbob

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2012, 09:18:50 PM »
Can I ask.........Was Mohamed The Anti-Christ and is Islam the greatest thread against Christianity?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2012, 11:56:50 PM »
Can I ask.........Was Mohamed The Anti-Christ and is Islam the greatest thread against Christianity?


Karl Rahner surmised: “The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”


If true, the greatest threat against Christianity are Christians who fail to live like it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

vicarbob

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2012, 06:31:01 PM »
Can I ask.........Was Mohamed The Anti-Christ and is Islam the greatest thread against Christianity?
[/quote
Karl Rahner surmised: “The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”
If true, the greatest threat against Christianity are Christians who fail to live like it.


I agree Brian with what was quoted and your addition. However, that doesn't answer the question I posed.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2012, 02:20:55 AM »
Can I ask.........Was Mohamed The Anti-Christ and is Islam the greatest thread against Christianity?
Karl Rahner surmised: “The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”
If true, the greatest threat against Christianity are Christians who fail to live like it.

I agree Brian with what was quoted and your addition. However, that doesn't answer the question I posed.


Actually, your question was, "Can I ask?" Since you did ask, you answered it. I figured that my statement that the greatest threat against Christianity are Christians who fail to live like it was an answer concerning the "greatest threat" in your question.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:23:23 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

vicarbob

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2012, 09:45:13 AM »
Thank you Brian...........my bad, I forgot the games people play, like Gilda said on SNL........never mind.

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2013, 11:23:50 AM »
It appears time to revive this poll.

I reset the counts to zero.  We'll see if the breakdown has changed.

Mike

Lawrence804

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 02:35:38 PM »
Papacy has never been the Antichrist. Nonsense in the 1500's, nonsense now.

But there were a lot of awful polemics in the 1500's. Hate and bile from both sides. The Reformation was a very good thing, but there are parts of the story that were tragic indeed.

BrotherBoris

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2013, 05:08:43 PM »
Just a thought here:  Could it perhaps be possible that calling the Papacy the very Antichrist was simply part of the hyperbole of the Reformation?  One of my favorites quotes from Francis Schaeffer is "beware of the habits you learn during controversies."  When one has controversies and arguments and disagreements, passions are raised.  When passions are raised, people can say all sorts of things that they normally would not say. I think its kind of unrealistic to hold modern day Lutherans to some statements the elderly and cranky Luther made in the Schmalkald Articles about the Papacy.  I think it is both wise and prudent to look at the historical circumstances that led Luther to make those statements and place them in their proper context. 

I am not trying to sweep Lutheran and Roman Catholic differences under the rug in the name of some false ecumenism or "feel good" Christianity.  I recognize Lutherans and Roman Catholics have real, legitimate differences in their theology.  It does seem to me, however, that some Lutherans fixate on the Council of Trent to such a degree that they forget that Rome has held other Councils as well.   I do really get tired of the old Lutheran canard of "Rome damned the Gospel" at Trent.  Rome did no such thing.  Let's try to be honest and fair here.  Rome rejected the Lutheran interpretation of the doctrine of justification at Trent.  Rome most certainly did not anathematize the Gospel at Trent because Rome reads from the Holy Gospel at every Mass and confesses the Christ rose from the dead every time they recite the Nicene Creed.  I think a fairer and more objective way to phrase things might be "Lutherans hold to a monergistc view of salvation while Roman Catholics hold to a synergistic view of salvation" and leave it at all.  Throwing around the words "antichrist", "anathema" and "damned the gospel" are simply not helpful.  Can we not develop a new way to speak about those who disagree with us theologically in the 21st century without sounding so tribal, hateful and partisan?

Team Hesse

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2013, 05:31:41 PM »
Sometimes the truth hurts.


The "old cranky Luther" of Smalcald is not where the strongest language against the Papacy is found in the confessions. The much more irenic and peace loving Melanchthon was the author of the "Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope" at the request of John the Steadfast who thought Luther had not been clear enough on this matter.


It is no small matter of bemusement to me that some who will argue vehemently for certain fine points of the Lutheran Confessions (particularly from the FOC) as almost a litmus test for whether one is a Lutheran or not will back-peddle as fast as they can from this particular piece of our confessional heritage. There were arguments among Lutherans over many things in the FOC. The Papacy was not one of the points that the second generation of Lutherans argued about....


Lou
SC

Dan Fienen

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Re: Is The Papacy Still The Very Antichrist?
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2013, 10:38:42 PM »
Perhaps it's time to resurrect this thread for those who want to battle this some more.

Dan
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