Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion

[RevSteve]

Pastor Bliss writes:
No speculation Charles I know what they believe because they have told me.
I comment:
You don't get it. I do not intend to be dragged into a discussion of "them" when all we have is your statement of what "they" allegedly said. Of course you "know what they believe," that is, you know how you understand what they told you.
But "they" are not here, and those of us here do not have direct access to what they said.

Pastor Bliss writes:
And you are the one trying to distract away from the point by once again playing English monitor.
I comment:
Ah, but the rules of English and the principles of debate actually keep us from getting distracted by fuzzy language, keeping the discourse on an educated, civil level. And someday we will have a discussion about commas, and the nuances of "who" and "whom."
But let us move on.

Whatever Charles. Use whatever insulting tactics you want to such as, oh I don't know, telliing me I don't get it, or accusing me of trying to "drag" you into a discussion of people you don't even know. Even with just a quick reading of what I wrote it is clear that was not what I was doing. How about going back and reading the context of my comment. Brian made a comment suggesting that we can't even tell what LCMS people believe and teach. I simply tried to counter that by recounting something from my own personal experience whcih was inconsistent with what Brian was saying. This is something that Brian himself does often, yet you don't take him to task or erroneously accuse him of trying to drag you into some discussion of what the people whom he was referring to said.

Believe my story or not Charles, I don't give a crap. But either way I was not trying to drag you into a discussion of whether my story was true or not. Actually Charles I wan't even talking to you, I was talking to Brian but you decided to comment. You've said this to me so now I will say this to you it is not all about you!!!!!

[Brian Stoffregen]

As an ELCA pastor who has good collegial relationships with both ELCA and LCMS pastors I can honestly tell you that I have a much clearer idea of what my LCMS colleagues believe then my fellow ELCA pastors. Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

We are the "big tent" denomination. We expect differences among our folks. I can't recall that the LCMS has ever suggested that they were a "big tent".

[RevSteve]

As an ELCA pastor who has good collegial relationships with both ELCA and LCMS pastors I can honestly tell you that I have a much clearer idea of what my LCMS colleagues believe then my fellow ELCA pastors. Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

We are the "big tent" denomination. We expect differences among our folks. I can't recall that the LCMS has ever suggested that they were a "big tent".

Brian,
There is a big difference between LCMS pastors having different ways by which they exercse discretion when it comes to the practice of Holy Communion and some ELCA pastors believing in the virgin birth and the devil and some not. Is the big tent description of the ELCA an adequiate rationalization for ELCA pastors to deny the virgin birth or the existence of devil? If so doesn't that make the ELCA's claim to belive the bible to be the word of God just lip service. Or let me guess, in a big tent there can be multiple meanings of what it means to say we believe the bible to be the word of God. 

[Steven Tibbetts]

You tell us. What would be your response?

As a Roman Catholic, it would not be appropriate for her to commune at a Eucharist where I am celebrant.  I would probably alter my normal announcement to the one I use for Via de Cristo.  Then I not only briefly describe Lutheran teaching (all who receive the Bread and Wine receive the True Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ) and invite all baptized persons who believe that to come to the Lord's Table (my usual announcement), but note that other churches have their discipline, that we respect that discipline, and I will gladly offer a blessing to those who, for any reason, are not receiving the sacrament at this service.  And if the Roman Catholic Speaker of the House were to present herself at the Altar, I would give her a blessing.

pax, spt+

[Steven Tibbetts]

So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

The Virgin Birth is included in the Creed.

The Devil is an inseparable part of the Gospels.

spt+

[Steven Tibbetts]

We are the "big tent" denomination.

Big tents are for circuses.

Christe eleison, spt+

[Charles_Austin]

The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS, writes:
And if the Roman Catholic Speaker of the House were to present herself at the Altar, I would give her a blessing.

I comment:
Even if her hands were extended, expecting to receive? What if it was another Roman Catholic, known or unknown to you? Or  member of the LC-MS, known or unknown? Or an Episcopalian, perhaps one known to be in the "liberal" wing?

[Weedon]

Steven B.,

That's some set of questions!  First, the LCMS is nowhere near homogenous in whom it communes.  The parish I attended as a teen invited all baptized Christians who confessed the real presence of Christ's body and blood for forgiveness of sins to attend; though not explicitly stated, that was also the approach at Concordia Bronxville when I attended there.  It was not until I came to the seminary that I really encountered churches that taught and practiced that only confirmed members of the LCMS or of a sister church with whom we were in altar and pulpit fellowship would be communed, but even then, these parishes have always allowed for pastoral discretion in dealing with exceptional cases. 

Is an ELCA pastor or layperson who protests against the ELCA's communion fellowship practices, and yet remains within her, an exceptional case?  I don't think many Missouri pastors would be comfortable simply saying:  "Yes" or "No" to that.  Most, I suspect, would be comfortable dealing pastorally with the situations that arise on a one to one basis.  And Missouri pastors are all to well aware - as your example pointed out, and as my history witnesses - that there has been for some time a wide divergence in actual practice inside of Missouri and yet we've not reached the point of not communing each other. 

[RevSteve]

So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

The Virgin Birth is included in the Creed.

The Devil is an inseparable part of the Gospels.

spt+

And I would add that the mention of hell in the creed at least implies a certain fundamental nature to the belief in the existence of the devil.

[RevSteve]

Steven B.,

That's some set of questions!  First, the LCMS is nowhere near homogenous in whom it communes.  The parish I attended as a teen invited all baptized Christians who confessed the real presence of Christ's body and blood for forgiveness of sins to attend; though not explicitly stated, that was also the approach at Concordia Bronxville when I attended there.  It was not until I came to the seminary that I really encountered churches that taught and practiced that only confirmed members of the LCMS or of a sister church with whom we were in altar and pulpit fellowship would be communed, but even then, these parishes have always allowed for pastoral discretion in dealing with exceptional cases. 

Is an ELCA pastor or layperson who protests against the ELCA's communion fellowship practices, and yet remains within her, an exceptional case?  I don't think many Missouri pastors would be comfortable simply saying:  "Yes" or "No" to that.  Most, I suspect, would be comfortable dealing pastorally with the situations that arise on a one to one basis.  And Missouri pastors are all to well aware - as your example pointed out, and as my history witnesses - that there has been for some time a wide divergence in actual practice inside of Missouri and yet we've not reached the point of not communing each other. 

Pastor Weedon
Thanks. And I wasn't necessarily asking so much about the communing of ELCA folk who express opposition to the ELCA's communion fellowship practices, but rather the communing of an LCMS pastor who would commune ELCA folk. In my dealings with LCMS pastors I have become aware that indeed there are different approaches to pastoral discretion. I ask because one of my colleagues who happens to be LCMS has told me of experiences he has had where he went to an LCMS worship service when he was traveling and was uncomfortable with something that went on in the service and because of that chose not to commune.

Thanks again.

[MMH]

So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

The Virgin Birth is included in the Creed.

The Devil is an inseparable part of the Gospels.

spt+

And I would add that the mention of hell in the creed at least implies a certain fundamental nature to the belief in the existence of the devil.

Do we not ask those to be baptized "Do you reject all evil, the devil and all his empty promises?"

Are those just nice traditional words or do we mean something when we say them?  Seeing as how they form something of a gate to the Sacrament, I would say the devil and hell are fundamental to the faith.  From what, after all, are we saved?

[revjagow]

We are the "big tent" denomination.

Big tents are for circuses.

Christe eleison, spt+

LOL!   

Logging onto the Forum again was worth it just for that line!

[Brian Stoffregen]

And I would add that the mention of hell in the creed at least implies a certain fundamental nature to the belief in the existence of the devil.

Diabolos -- the "slanderer" -- had no connection with Hades or Sheol.

[Brian Stoffregen]

We are the "big tent" denomination.

Big tents are for circuses.

And revivals.

[Weedon]

Brian,

Our Lord would perhaps disagree:  Depart into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!