Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion

[RevSteve]

Not to be a whiner but is anyone going to answer the question about closed communion that I asked upstream that was directed to LCMS pastors??

[Brian Stoffregen]

The parallel I was drawing was not between the two acts but between the ramifications you were trying to make. Jesus said to take communion. Taken along with the rest of what God has revealed in the Scriptures, that means to take communion where you bring no divisions to the altar.

That's where we differ. I see God revealing in scriptures that communion creates unity between us and God and each other: 1 Cor 10:17 "Because there is one loaf, we, the many, are one body, for we all share from the one loaf." What makes us one body? Sharing from the one loaf.

I heard a seminary president stated that he believed we should just all share communion and let God make us one and figure out the paper work afterwards.

God also said "be fruitful and multiply" but then gave marriage as the only context in which to legitimately do that; the command does not legitimate every sexual encounter. A congregation with whom you are in fellowship is the proper context for communion.

What do you mean by "marriage"? I've stated this before, but there is no Hebrew word in the OT for marriage. The LXX did not use any of the Greek words for marriage in translating the OT.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Did you ask them why they left??

Usually I didn't have to ask. They were more than willing to tell me.

Did you talk to their former pastor??

I have visited with the two pastors who were most involved.

Or did you just perceive the message of their coming to your congregation that you were just such a great pastor.

They seldomed talked about my abilities, but much more about the welcome they felt from the congregation.

I mean by your logic if that is how you perceived then that must be the reality. It couldn't possibly be that there was more to their leaving than what you saw.

I'm sure that there was more to their leaving than what I saw and heard, but I did see and hear what they had to say. Right now I'm hearing from an older couple who are looking for a new church -- and they are leaving an LCMS congregation and have been checking ELCA ones.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Question for LCMS pastors who would not commune ELCA members; and I ask this purely to gain insight into the practice of close/d communion.

The same thing happened to a retired ELCA minister and his wife who were members at a former congregation. On their way to visit us, they worshipped at an LCMS congregation and were served communion -- no questions asked.

How are we to know what the LCMS really believes and practices?

[RevSteve]

Question for LCMS pastors who would not commune ELCA members; and I ask this purely to gain insight into the practice of close/d communion.

The same thing happened to a retired ELCA minister and his wife who were members at a former congregation. On their way to visit us, they worshipped at an LCMS congregation and were served communion -- no questions asked.

How are we to know what the LCMS really believes and practices?

Brian c'mon
As an ELCA pastor who has good collegial relationships with both ELCA and LCMS pastors I can honestly tell you that I have a much clearer idea of what my LCMS colleagues believe then my fellow ELCA pastors. Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

[Lutheran_Lay_Leader]

How are we to know what the LCMS really believes and practices?

Read the books and the essays, memorize all the acronyms, and study, study, study! And be prepared to learn new definitions for many common words. An advanced university degree helps. That won't bring full understanding, but it's a short step in the right direction.

As an ELCA pastor who has good collegial relationships with both ELCA and LCMS pastors I can honestly tell you that I have a much clearer idea of what my LCMS colleagues believe then my fellow ELCA pastors. Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

That's sadly true as well. However, the issue of what the LC-MS as an EoR in the OHC&AC teaches or what the ELCA as a different EoR in the OHC&AC teaches is not the same as what the C&OC in those EoR in the OHC&AC believe.

[Weedon]

Steve,

So as not to have to hunt through the whole stream, could you repeat the question?

[Dan Fienen]

Where to begin?  Imagine that, LCMS pastors who are not in full compliance with LCMS stated policy, how could that happen?  I'm sure, Brian, the ELCA would never let something like that happen with say their V & E.  At least we shoulde know what ELCA pastors really believe but cause they are all in compliance with the official positions and policies of the ELCA.

Now that I've got that out of my system, the LCMS position of close communion has always included provision for pastoral discretion.  Again, for a more in depth discussion of LCMS thinking and policy on communion fellowship, see the CTCR report, "Admission to the Lord's Supper."

While, in general, our policy of close communion would indicate that ELCA members are not normally invited to commune at LCMS altars, there can be circumstances in which other considerations, at the discretion of the pastor, rule otherwise.  Itg is not as neat and tidy as some would like but while rules are neat and tidy life is messy and it has always been a part of LCMS policy to allow for pastoral discretion.  There will be arguments as to what is an abuse or even under use of this discretion.

As to pastors who apparently abuse this discretion, or simply abandon any responsibilty to exercise oversight over the communion fellowship in their churches - well, no system is perfect and there are disagreements in every church.  There are provisions within the church to supervise and discipline pastors.  That does not happen perfectly should be a surprise to no one.  I am content to let the debate and the process continue as best it can.

Dan

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Bliss writes:
Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

I comment:
So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

[RevSteve]

Steve,

So as not to have to hunt through the whole stream, could you repeat the question?

Question for LCMS pastors who would not commune ELCA members; and I ask this purely to gain insight into the practice of close/d communion.

First for clariification, If I am understanding you correctly you would not commune an ELCA member based solely on the fact that they are in the ELCA; regardless of how much they might agree or disagree with the ELCA practices that would prohibit them from being communed by you (And I am not debating that position). The logic is that by their membership in the ELCA they are tacitly condoning an understanding of Holy Communion that is not only inconsistent with but rejected by the Lutheran confessions, again regardless of how they may feel about the ecumenical agreements etc. Assuming that I understand this correctly then my next question would be would you commune an LCMS pastor whom you know for a fact does commune ELCA members? When I was on vacation recently I worshipped at my cousin's church in California which happens to be LCMS. As soon as I got there I immediately asked my cousin if I had to go talk to an elder or something about communion. She told me no but they would ask that I fill out the communion cards in the pews. The pastor came over and introduced himself and my cousin told him I was a pastor in North Dakota. We talked a little bit and I did work into the conversation that I was ELCA, lest my cousin be mistaken about the communion practices. It didn't seem to bother him. And he communed me. By his communing me was he tacitly condoning the ELCA's communion practices? Would you commune him?? I am not trying to trap anyone or be beligerent. I am just seeking insight into your communion practice.

[RevSteve]

Pastor Bliss writes:
Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

I comment:
So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

Fine Charles fundamental maybe wasn't the best word. Maybe basic is better, I don't know.

How about actually addressing the point I was making. Do you think it's not problematic for a pastor to deny the virgin birth or to teach the devil is merely a metaphor for all the brokenness in the world??

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Bliss writes:
Fine Charles fundamental maybe wasn't the best word. Maybe basic is better, I don't know.

I comment:
Well, I don't base my faith on the existence of the devil or the virgin birth, so it's not "basic" for me.

Pastor Bliss writes:
Do you think it's not problematic for a pastor to deny the virgin birth or to teach the devil is merely a metaphor for all the brokenness in the world??

I comment:
Yes, it is "problematic," in that it can cause some problems within the community.
But let's not get distracted again on what you speculate that some pastor might say or teach.

[RevSteve]

Pastor Bliss writes:
Fine Charles fundamental maybe wasn't the best word. Maybe basic is better, I don't know.

I comment:
Well, I don't base my faith on the existence of the devil or the virgin birth, so it's not "basic" for me.

Pastor Bliss writes:
Do you think it's not problematic for a pastor to deny the virgin birth or to teach the devil is merely a metaphor for all the brokenness in the world??

I comment:
Yes, it is "problematic," in that it can cause some problems within the community.
But let's not get distracted again on what you speculate that some pastor might say or teach.

Where was I speaking hypothetically Charles??? I made it clear that I was speaking of colleagues who I speak with regularly. No speculation Charles I know what they believe because they have told me.

And you are the one trying to distract away from the point by once again playing English monitor.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Bliss writes:
No speculation Charles I know what they believe because they have told me.
I comment:
You don't get it. I do not intend to be dragged into a discussion of "them" when all we have is your statement of what "they" allegedly said. Of course you "know what they believe," that is, you know how you understand what they told you.
But "they" are not here, and those of us here do not have direct access to what they said.

Pastor Bliss writes:
And you are the one trying to distract away from the point by once again playing English monitor.
I comment:
Ah, but the rules of English and the principles of debate actually keep us from getting distracted by fuzzy language, keeping the discourse on an educated, civil level. And someday we will have a discussion about commas, and the nuances of "who" and "whom."
But let us move on.

[Keith Falk]

Pastor Bliss writes:
Among ELCA pastors I can't even be certain if they believe in something as fundamental as the devil or the virgin birth.

I comment:
So the devil and the virgin birth are "fundamental" to our faith? Where does that list come from?

Dunno 'bout the devil part, but as to the virgin birth, it is one of them creed-thingamajiggers...

"I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord
Who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary"

I think one can make the argument that the three ecumenical creeds are, in fact, fundamental (a basic principle).  They are fundamental expressions of the faith.  And, to really push a few buttons (though not for the sake of pushing buttons), one could also make the argument that a pastor (or anyone, for that matter) who says the Apostle's Creed and does not believe the virgin birth is a liar.  Stating, "I believe" without actually believing what is stated...  I believe this is the point where I am supposed to say, "ducking and running for cover"