Author Topic: ELCA Statistics Show Decline  (Read 32861 times)

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #390 on: August 28, 2008, 11:38:44 AM »

They can, but there can be consequences

So, the biblical exegete says that it all depends on what "can" means, eh?

spt+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44630
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #391 on: August 28, 2008, 11:46:35 AM »

They can, but there can be consequences

So, the biblical exegete says that it all depends on what "can" means, eh?
1. a cylindrical metal container
2. prison
3. the toilet
4. to have the ability to do something

In proper English (often misused in common English,) "can" meant the ability to do something. "May" meant permission to do something.

Congregations have the ability to call whomever they wish. They do not have permission from the ELCA to call whomever they wish.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #392 on: August 28, 2008, 01:11:33 PM »
So when my parents told me as a child, "You cannot cross the street by yourself," they were wrong?

spt+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #393 on: August 28, 2008, 01:39:19 PM »
Is this going anywhere, other than to prove that if Brian says the sky is blue, the Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS, will think something is suspicious about that?

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19541
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #394 on: August 28, 2008, 01:55:33 PM »
Is this going anywhere, other than to prove that if Brian says the sky is blue, the Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS, will think something is suspicious about that?
More likely, if Steven says the sky is blue, Brian will say, "Actually, the sky seems quite cheerful today. You see, blue has multiple meanings, one of which is morose or depressed, and it wasn't clear from the context what Steven meant, so technically we totally disagreed with one another and were both right! Isn't that neat? What a glorious thing ambiguity is..."

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10656
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #395 on: August 28, 2008, 03:20:56 PM »

1. a cylindrical metal container
2. prison
3. the toilet
4. to have the ability to do something

5. to stop something, as in "Can it, Brian."  ;)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44630
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #396 on: August 28, 2008, 04:19:52 PM »
So when my parents told me as a child, "You cannot cross the street by yourself," they were wrong?
They believed that you did not have the ability to safely cross the street by yourself.

You could certainly disagree with them and look both ways before safely running accross the street to prove that you could do it. However, you probably knew that such actions could result in disciplinary measures when the folks found out it. Or, given some circumstances, e.g., helping a little, ol' lady who had fallen down, the parents might both be angry and praise you for your act of care for another person.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 04:23:19 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44630
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #397 on: August 28, 2008, 04:24:06 PM »

1. a cylindrical metal container
2. prison
3. the toilet
4. to have the ability to do something

5. to stop something, as in "Can it, Brian."  ;)
Or, 6. something has been completed, as, "It's in the can." (I think usually of film making.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

TravisW

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #398 on: August 28, 2008, 04:56:42 PM »
Or as a slang reference to the posterior.

"They knocked him on his can for contributing to thread drift". 

Layman Randy

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #399 on: August 28, 2008, 05:04:31 PM »
Or as a verb "to can": To prepare for storage and future use.  Preserve, put up. Usually refers to food.
Or, as a verb in "dismiss": To end the employment or service of an employee.

hillwilliam

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #400 on: August 28, 2008, 05:43:49 PM »
I believe that those that 'can' discipline clergy, congregations, and seminary staff who fail to do so when it is appropriate to do so should be canned. If the ELCA becomes a paper tiger (and toothless at that) that pushes secular activism that is ignored by all because it has no moral authority then the current decline will only accelerate.

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #401 on: August 28, 2008, 05:46:03 PM »
Gary Hinton writes:
I believe that those that 'can' discipline clergy, congregations, and seminary staff who fail to do so when it is appropriate to do so should be canned. If the ELCA becomes a paper tiger (and toothless at that) that pushes secular activism that is ignored by all because it has no moral authority then the current decline will only accelerate.

I muse:
So the method for "saving" the ELCA from further decline is stronger discipline of clergy, congregations and seminary staff, firing people and avoiding anything that could be considered "secular activism." (And just what is that, exactly?)

hillwilliam

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #402 on: August 28, 2008, 06:01:51 PM »

So the method for "saving" the ELCA from further decline is stronger discipline of clergy, congregations and seminary staff, firing people and avoiding anything that could be considered "secular activism." (And just what is that, exactly?)

Well actually that was supposed to be a whimsical, tongue in cheek, play on words in the spirit of the preceding posts. That doesn't mean it couldn't be part of the total solution.

Secular activism is activism dedicated to reaching some secular goal. OTHO, Christian activism is dedicated to attaining Christian goals, such as trying to fulfill our commission from Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 06:06:14 PM by hillwilliam »

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

  • Guest
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #403 on: August 28, 2008, 06:46:23 PM »
I believe that those that 'can' discipline clergy, congregations, and seminary staff who fail to do so when it is appropriate to do so should be canned. If the ELCA becomes a paper tiger (and toothless at that) that pushes secular activism that is ignored by all because it has no moral authority then the current decline will only accelerate.

At the rate the ELCA is losing membership, it won't much matter what the leadership of the synod does. It will be naught but a voice crying in the wilderness, unheard.

Quote
Secular activism is activism dedicated to reaching some secular goal. OTHO, Christian activism is dedicated to attaining Christian goals, such as trying to fulfill our commission from Jesus Christ.

So what would you call attempting to achieve Christian goals by secularising the church to the point where all that pesky religious stuff has been squeezed out of it? What would you call picking and choosing which commissions to follow and which commissions to ignore? And as long as I'm on a roll, what do you call pressuring someone else (like the other kingdom) to do what the Church is supposed to do, because that's easier and there are more resources for it? Jesus said "What, you do for the least of these, you do for me". I don't recall Him saying, "What you convince the politicians to do for large blocs of voters, you do for me."

Does the Book of Concord or Augsburg Confessions mention anything about it being a good thing to delegate the job of doing good works to the government?

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: ELCA Statistics Show Decline
« Reply #404 on: August 28, 2008, 08:18:25 PM »
I suspect that in Yuma, the sky is blue.  Probably with a brownish haze, but as an LA boy, that's still blue sky.

Today in Peoria, the sky is gray.  A very dark, wet, foreboding gray.  (Or is that grey?)

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog