Author Topic: Death of mainline protestantism  (Read 26240 times)

Scott5

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2008, 09:07:07 AM »
Point in fact,  every protestant mainline church's health care plan pays for abortions, without restriction, during the first trimester or more. It's a horrible tragedy and an inconvenient truth that all the PR-department spin in the world can not paper over with pious platitudes.

Real churches do not pay for elective abortions.

Absolutely.  That this is the case with the ELCA health plan is a complete and total tragedy that cries out to be rectified.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #136 on: August 01, 2008, 10:06:45 AM »
Sigh. So do LC-MS members have to withdraw from any health benefits plan that pays for abortion? It's their money doing it, right? And if it is a union or professional organization fund, they have some say in what it pays for. Would not the LC-MS say that an abortion in the case of rape, incest or the threat to the life of the mother might be permitted? Hence "elective."
This assumption of moral superiority or purity really gets tiresome.
But I'll stop there.

Scott5

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #137 on: August 01, 2008, 10:25:27 AM »
Sigh. So do LC-MS members have to withdraw from any health benefits plan that pays for abortion? It's their money doing it, right? And if it is a union or professional organization fund, they have some say in what it pays for.

I agree that other health care funds shouldn't pay for abortions, and people should agitate that they not be paid for.  Sorta like some are doing here.

Would not the LC-MS say that an abortion in the case of rape, incest or the threat to the life of the mother might be permitted? Hence "elective."

"Elective" as it's being used here is to refer to abortion for any reason at all, including inconvenience.

Procedures where an abortion is necessary because the baby simply cannot survive with the current state of technology (like in an ectopic pregnancy) or in the case of a mother who is in danger of imminent death due to the physical complications of the pregnancy hardly fall under the category of "elective."  If you want that term to have any meaning, that is.

This assumption of moral superiority or purity really gets tiresome.

I bet it does.  After all, you've done it for quite a while, and any such incredible repetition is bound to be wearying.

Rest in the shadow of the Almighty's wings and be renewed, little lamb. ;)

But I'll stop there.

Sure you will.  :D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:51:20 AM by Sc ott Yak imow »

E. Swensson

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2008, 11:21:22 AM »
Sigh. So do LC-MS members have to withdraw from any health benefits plan that pays for abortion? It's their money doing it, right? And if it is a union or professional organization fund, they have some say in what it pays for.

I agree that other health care funds shouldn't pay for abortions, and people should agitate that they not be paid for.  Sorta like some are doing here.

Would not the LC-MS say that an abortion in the case of rape, incest or the threat to the life of the mother might be permitted? Hence "elective."

"Elective" as it's being used here is to refer to abortion for any reason at all, including inconvenience.

Procedures where an abortion is necessary because the baby simply cannot survive with the current state of technology (like in an ectopic pregnancy) or in the case of a mother who is in danger of imminent death due to the physical complications of the pregnancy hardly fall under the category of "elective."  If you want that term to have any meaning, that is.

This assumption of moral superiority or purity really gets tiresome.

I bet it is.  After all, you've done it for quite a while, and any such incredible repetition is bound to be wearying.

Rest in the shadow of the Almighty's wings and be renewed, little lamb. ;)

But I'll stop there.

Sure you will.  :D

Nothing to add here! Carry on...

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #139 on: August 01, 2008, 12:36:43 PM »
in the case of a mother who is in danger of imminent death due to the physical complications of the pregnancy hardly fall under the category of "elective."
The mother can elect to save her own life, or to give up her life for the sake of the child. I believe that the Roman Church takes the position that it is better to save the life of the child than of the mother. The argument is that the mother has been baptized and believes in Christ and so her eternal salvation is secured. The opportunity to be baptized and believe and be saved should be given to the child.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #140 on: August 01, 2008, 12:38:22 PM »
I agree that other health care funds shouldn't pay for abortions, and people should agitate that they not be paid for.  Sorta like some are doing here.
So, what do you tell members of LCMS congregations who are paying for abortions through their company health programs?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

buechler

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2008, 03:04:28 PM »
Sigh. So do LC-MS members have to withdraw from any health benefits plan that pays for abortion? It's their money doing it, right? And if it is a union or professional organization fund, they have some say in what it pays for.

I agree that other health care funds shouldn't pay for abortions, and people should agitate that they not be paid for.  Sorta like some are doing here.

Would not the LC-MS say that an abortion in the case of rape, incest or the threat to the life of the mother might be permitted? Hence "elective."

"Elective" as it's being used here is to refer to abortion for any reason at all, including inconvenience.

Procedures where an abortion is necessary because the baby simply cannot survive with the current state of technology (like in an ectopic pregnancy) or in the case of a mother who is in danger of imminent death due to the physical complications of the pregnancy hardly fall under the category of "elective."  If you want that term to have any meaning, that is.

This assumption of moral superiority or purity really gets tiresome.

I bet it is.  After all, you've done it for quite a while, and any such incredible repetition is bound to be wearying.

Rest in the shadow of the Almighty's wings and be renewed, little lamb. ;)

But I'll stop there.

Sure you will.  :D

Nothing to add here! Carry on...

Ditto! ;)

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

bmj

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2008, 03:39:21 PM »
in the case of a mother who is in danger of imminent death due to the physical complications of the pregnancy hardly fall under the category of "elective."
The mother can elect to save her own life, or to give up her life for the sake of the child. I believe that the Roman Church takes the position that it is better to save the life of the child than of the mother. The argument is that the mother has been baptized and believes in Christ and so her eternal salvation is secured. The opportunity to be baptized and believe and be saved should be given to the child.

Yes, and you can read about one courageous and faithful person who was beautified by Pope John Paul II in 1994..
http://www.vatican.edu/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20040516_beretta-molla_en.html

Or another..
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/may/08050108.html

I don't know that your stated reasoning is correct (it is more based on the sanctity of all life, and the fact that it is not ours to give and take, not so much on salvation issues).  However, the fact that the Catholic church teaches unambiguously that life is sacred from the moment of conception until natural death is true.  Abortion is an 'intrinsic evil' and a non-negotiable.  I believe the RCC teaching is that if the life of the Mother AND the child are at stake, AND there is no possibility that the child can live, then all measures (including abortion) can and should be taken to preserve the life of the Mother.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2008, 05:57:39 PM »
I agree that other health care funds shouldn't pay for abortions, and people should agitate that they not be paid for.  Sorta like some are doing here.
So, what do you tell members of LCMS congregations who are paying for abortions through their company health programs?
That depends.  If they are in charge of setting up the plan and have the discretion to set the terms of the plan, then I would urge them to limit the benefit paid for abortion to be in line with our beliefs.  If it is an employee benefit over which they have minimal control, I would suggest that if they have an opportunity to voice an opinion that they do so, otherwise then even though the plan provides such a benefit, they personally do not have abortions except in such circumstances as are accepted within our beliefs in the matter.

Brian,

You have some strong beliefs concerning same sex relationships.  How can you live in and support with taxes a nation, state, or community that does not exactly put into practice what you believe?  If you feel that LCMS people should be conscience bound not to participate in health plans over which they exercise little control and that provide abortion converage that they believe is wrong, should you not also be conscience bound not to be a part of a community that goes against what you believe is morally correct concerning same sex relationships?  For that matter, if you feel that the war in Iraq is wrong should that not have been a deal breaker and you renounced American citizenship and residence immediately.  Good luck at finding a situation where your moral imperitives are completely followed.

Obviously, if we have strong beliefs concerning abortion, we would much prefer that medical plans and social systems of which we are a part would honor and conform to our beliefs.  That is not always possible though we should exercise what influence we might have.  As, I am sure you try to exercise what influence you have in nation, state, community, and church that your moral imperatives concerning same sex relationships be recognized and followed.   However, in the case of medical insurance provided by a church body for her workers, the church body should be able to exercise considerable influence over the nature and terms of coverage.  What they do should reflect their beliefs.  And from their policy concerning what they will cover, we are, I think justifiably, able to gleen an idea of what they really believe.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Thomas Byers

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #144 on: August 02, 2008, 01:32:05 PM »
Do religious bodies die or morph into being something different?  Case in point New England Puritansim developed into Unitarianism--a long way from Jonathn Edwards.  tb

ptmccain

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #145 on: August 02, 2008, 02:54:52 PM »
I'm still wondering how we can not but hear a "death rattle" when examine mainline protestantism's position on abortion.

That seems such a dramatically obvious indication of a church's core values.

Thomas Byers

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2008, 09:27:44 PM »
Solemn thought but isn't this exactly what Eck or Bellarmine and Borromeo predicted would happen?  tb

Thomas Byers

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2008, 12:17:20 PM »
 :-[ So no one could think of a thing to say after that?  tb

Weedon

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2008, 04:02:02 PM »
Well, I did think of something to say, but wasn't sure it was terribly helpful.  It has to do with in name versus in fact and would likely be deemed insulting.  The point, however, is that no LUTHERAN Church would countenance such.  Period.  Our Rule of Faith, the Sacred Scriptures, prohibit bringing harm to anyone in their body; and certainly that includes the unborn.  So to use the name Lutheran to cloak this is to show the truth about where one stands as Lutherans (meaning no disrespect to my faithful brothers and sisters in the ELCA who continue to strive to be and remain Lutheran in more than name).

Weedon

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Re: Death of mainline protestantism
« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2008, 04:04:29 PM »
By the way, this article might be an interesting addition to the one originally referred to:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0mUNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA27

Krauth is always heavy slogging, but so worth it...