Author Topic: Herod is smiling  (Read 8783 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2007, 06:40:38 AM »
The Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither writes:
I have had several students in confirmation (here in Duluth/Superior) ask me if we are destroying the earth like that DVD from the former V.P. shows?   Middle School kids watching this movie in Social Studies and science classes. They are distraught and think that we have the power to destroy creation all because of some inspiid movie.

I comment:
The response might be: Yes, we are. Not because of some "insipid" movie, but because of greed and arrogance. (By the way, it's all right to say or write Vice President Gore's name; Satan does not sink claws into a person who does.)

Matthew J. Uttenreither continues:
Envirmomentalism has become a "relgion" (sic) to a growing number of people.

I respond:
Which does not mean that it is not a valid concern.

Matthew J. Uttenreither continues:
And this "relgion" (sic) is one that sees the earth as first and humanity as  not necessary.  One only needs to look at the op-ed pieces of many of these folks to this as a relgion.  One even went so far as calling the former V.P., Noah.

I respond:
An unfair characterization, on a par with those who say that Christians are theocrats who would pass laws legislating morality and forcing everyone to conformer to their views on every aspect of human conduct. And one could probably find an Op-Ed piece calling President Bush or Pat Robertson "savior."

MJU concludes:
It is sad and disturbing, especially when these kids have to sit and listen to this.

I respond:
I am more concerned when kids sit and listen to "American Idol," "Survivor" or any of a number of perverse, brain-draining and morality corrupting television shows or are told the myths of American history that are used to justify anything this country wants to do in the world.

Dave Benke

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2007, 08:38:06 AM »
Maybe a little re-focus, even from one of those dreaded people from the East.  I have an old friend, my former dentist, who advised me against overusing anti-biotics.  Why?  I asked.  He answered, "Because they're anti-biotic.  They're against what's living.  So they're not that discriminating inside your body.  They're wiping out lots of living stuff that you'd like to stay alive, even though they're knocking off what you need killed." 

In this case, it's the opposite.  We are/I am PRO-life.  I'm in favor of that which is living.  I'm protective of it, cherishing of life.  I believe it to be the MOST biotic point of view.  Does that make me an environmentalist?  I'd say it makes me a better citizen of that which cherishes and protects the whole creation.  I too have had trouble following Peter's train of thought on this, even with the clarifications.  To me, the woman who takes the life of the child within her for environmental reasons has not only sacrificed the child to a false god, but has sacrificed falsely to the god she claims to be serving, because she has behaved anti-biotically.  And she wants to be a heroine for the pro-biotic forces.  If, as Peter thinks, she's an apostle of "leaving life alone," then the life within her would be the place to start.

I say that what I'm saying as a citizen of the United States and as a Christian.  I could also say that as a citizen of the United States who was simply environmentally conscious.  Or as a citizen of the world who was Muslim.  Although Christianity in theory or theology provides the strongest home for the Pro-Life movement, its march through actual history has been profoundly antibiotic at times.  Indeed, violent and anti-life religious activity marks all the world's religions.   The United States has the same sad distinction.  "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" is a classic antibiotic phrase.  The nations of the world are no better.

In trying to think this through, though, I'd say there's a quantitative difference in the word "utilitarian"  - I have far more utilitarian flexibility when it comes to the environment - the creation - and being PRO-life than I do when it comes to abortion and the cherishing of human life.  There the utilitarian posturing must cease in the face of the human life within. 

Dave Benke

Richard Johnson

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2007, 09:28:13 AM »
Maybe a little re-focus, even from one of those dreaded people from the East.

Or, perhaps, one of the wise men from the East . . .  :)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2007, 02:28:12 PM »
The Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither writes:
I have had several students in confirmation (here in Duluth/Superior) ask me if we are destroying the earth like that DVD from the former V.P. shows?   Middle School kids watching this movie in Social Studies and science classes. They are distraught and think that we have the power to destroy creation all because of some inspiid movie.

I comment:
The response might be: Yes, we are. Not because of some "insipid" movie, but because of greed and arrogance. (By the way, it's all right to say or write Vice President Gore's name; Satan does not sink claws into a person who does.)

Matthew J. Uttenreither continues:
Envirmomentalism has become a "relgion" (sic) to a growing number of people.

I respond:
Which does not mean that it is not a valid concern.

Matthew J. Uttenreither continues:
And this "relgion" (sic) is one that sees the earth as first and humanity as  not necessary.  One only needs to look at the op-ed pieces of many of these folks to this as a relgion.  One even went so far as calling the former V.P., Noah.

I respond:
An unfair characterization, on a par with those who say that Christians are theocrats who would pass laws legislating morality and forcing everyone to conformer to their views on every aspect of human conduct. And one could probably find an Op-Ed piece calling President Bush or Pat Robertson "savior."

MJU concludes:
It is sad and disturbing, especially when these kids have to sit and listen to this.

I respond:
I am more concerned when kids sit and listen to "American Idol," "Survivor" or any of a number of perverse, brain-draining and morality corrupting television shows or are told the myths of American history that are used to justify anything this country wants to do in the world.



Charles,

The difference is that students are forced to watch a DVD with known falsehoods as a part of their studies, are told by their teacher that Al Gore is a prophet.  American Idol is not forced on the children by authority figures,  this movie is. 

I won't even comment on the remark about American History classes. 

You should pay a visit to this neck of the woods.  It may be the mid-west but we have rapid enviromentalists all over the place, in the city government.  So what you view as a unfair characterization is a reality over here.

The article that Peter cited sounds like many of the people that live around here

Creation may or may not be winding down (and if it is should we be complaining) but we have heard the "sky is falling" from many a person.  In the 70's we heard that the earth was going to freeze, the aquatic wildlife was going to die and yet here we are.  Now we have it again in the global warming religion of envirmomentalism that would rather see babies aborted than grow up and comsume the bounty of the Lord's creation in a responsible way.




peter_speckhard

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2007, 03:00:14 PM »
Maybe a little re-focus, even from one of those dreaded people from the East.  I have an old friend, my former dentist, who advised me against overusing anti-biotics.  Why?  I asked.  He answered, "Because they're anti-biotic.  They're against what's living.  So they're not that discriminating inside your body.  They're wiping out lots of living stuff that you'd like to stay alive, even though they're knocking off what you need killed." 

In this case, it's the opposite.  We are/I am PRO-life.  I'm in favor of that which is living.  I'm protective of it, cherishing of life.  I believe it to be the MOST biotic point of view.  Does that make me an environmentalist?  I'd say it makes me a better citizen of that which cherishes and protects the whole creation.  I too have had trouble following Peter's train of thought on this, even with the clarifications.  To me, the woman who takes the life of the child within her for environmental reasons has not only sacrificed the child to a false god, but has sacrificed falsely to the god she claims to be serving, because she has behaved anti-biotically.  And she wants to be a heroine for the pro-biotic forces.  If, as Peter thinks, she's an apostle of "leaving life alone," then the life within her would be the place to start.

I say that what I'm saying as a citizen of the United States and as a Christian.  I could also say that as a citizen of the United States who was simply environmentally conscious.  Or as a citizen of the world who was Muslim.  Although Christianity in theory or theology provides the strongest home for the Pro-Life movement, its march through actual history has been profoundly antibiotic at times.  Indeed, violent and anti-life religious activity marks all the world's religions.   The United States has the same sad distinction.  "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" is a classic antibiotic phrase.  The nations of the world are no better.

In trying to think this through, though, I'd say there's a quantitative difference in the word "utilitarian"  - I have far more utilitarian flexibility when it comes to the environment - the creation - and being PRO-life than I do when it comes to abortion and the cherishing of human life.  There the utilitarian posturing must cease in the face of the human life within. 

Dave Benke
Dave, I don't say she's an apostle of "leaving life alone"; she's an apostle of leaving the earth alone. Big difference, especially since her child was an enemy of the earth. Even rearranging inanimate objects, like cutting granite into counter-tops, is probably sacrilige to her because the granite was "natural" where it was in uncut form. The little life inside her was destined, as a human being, to becoming the among the chief rearrangers of creation, since he'd certainaly want a house and a car and use energy and probably shop at Wal-Mart. So the child had to be sacrificed, lest the earth suffer. And I agree with you-- she is not consistent with her own religion on this. If she were, as someone noted upstream, she would kill herself. The prince she unwittingly serves is probably working on that problem.

I think Charles hit on one of the real issues-- some people think "exploiting" the earth via industry amounts to greed and arrogance. I think they're wrong, or at least I don't think people drilling for oil or mining coal are doing it any more greedily than people in any other profession.

I think this whole discussion could use some definition of terms. What is pollution? What is natural? What does it mean to "care for" the environment?

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2007, 04:02:09 PM »
Peter,

I think you are opening a can worms with that question.

Pollution:  puposely seeking to ruin creation either through laziness, greed.  Normally one finds the greatest polluters in the 2nd or 3rd world nowadays.  Accidents do not equate pollution insofar as they are not done in malice. 

NAtural:  Using the bounty that the Lord provides such as drilling for fossil fuels, proper care of the forests- for every tree a lumber company takes they plant something 3 or 4.

Care for the creation:  regulations that keep certain chemicals out of water, "Be a hoot, don't pollute'.  Also hunting falls under this catagory as to keep the population of a deer under control.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 04:33:18 PM by Matthew J. Uttenreither »

jrubyaz

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2007, 05:20:54 PM »

Charles, two comments:

You will be relieved to know that they don't teach myths in American history anymore. That is because most of the American history my kids are learning is selectively picked to showcase just certain parts of American history-mostly, that we are always the bad guys, for example, World War Two has two chapters on how terrrible we were to the Japanese AMerican (which we were), yet nothing on Hitler, Germany, or the Holocaust, nor anything about Pearl Harbor.

So don't worry, because no history is even being taught.

Secondly, maybe one of the reasons the ELCA is declining in membership is that instead of attempting to understand why people are engrossed in American Idol we judge them and dismiss them, as you just did. Why are they watching that? What alternatives can the Church give ? Given we think The Lutheran and Lutheran Partners is still the way to reach people, I hold little hope for what we come up with in the digital flat world age.

Jeff Ruby 




I am more concerned when kids sit and listen to "American Idol," "Survivor" or any of a number of perverse, brain-draining and morality corrupting television shows or are told the myths of American history that are used to justify anything this country wants to do in the world.

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2007, 05:32:55 PM »
Considering what is on t.v. American Idol is the least of our problems.  We should be more concerned with the sexuality that the kids are exposed to on MTV.  Up here, that is the filith they watch so when they tell me they watched American Idol, I am relieved.

Kids today get bombarded with a agenda that is not helpful.  Teachers spend veterns day talking about hippies and objecter to war instead of the brave soldiers, marines, etc.. who nobly serve this country and give their lives for our saftey.  They spoon feed them tihs Al Gore nonsense as well as the proper techniques for sex, yet Charles is concerned that kids watch American Idol.  Good Lord.

Charles is sounding like those people of old who complain about kids and their Rock and or Roll musci  ;).

Charles_Austin

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2007, 05:48:52 PM »
Jeff writes:
You will be relieved to know that they don't teach myths in American history anymore. That is because most of the American history my kids are learning is selectively picked to showcase just certain parts of American history-mostly, that we are always the bad guys, for example, World War Two has two chapters on how terrrible we were to the Japanese AMerican (which we were), yet nothing on Hitler, Germany, or the Holocaust, nor anything about Pearl Harbor.

I comment:
Too bad you live where you do. In New Jersey, a section on the holocaust is a required part of the curriculum and every memorial day and veterans day, vets go to the schools and talk about their experiences.

Jeff writes;
Secondly, maybe one of the reasons the ELCA is declining in membership is that instead of attempting to understand why people are engrossed in American Idol we judge them and dismiss them, as you just did.

I comment:
And where did I "dismiss" those people? A media-awareness effort has always been part of my ministry, trying to get people to make consciencous and intelligent choices about media.

Jeff again:
Given we think The Lutheran and Lutheran Partners is still the way to reach people, I hold little hope for what we come up with in the digital flat world age.

Me again:
Well, Lutheran Partners isn't trying to "reach" folks outside, just the rostered people. And The Lutheran is not considered primarily an evangelism tool.
If that's all we were doing, I might agree. It isn't. And the issue is not what "the ELCA" does, but what we who deal with people in the parishes do.

jrubyaz

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2007, 07:30:47 PM »
Glad to hear that about Jersey. In California they recently passed legislation that boys who are girls in the self understanding and girls who are boys in the their self understanding can use each other's restrooms. I guess the wave starts West and will get to you eventually.

As to the Lutheran and Lutheran Partners, enough said. Declining subscriptions  tells the tale. At the time most rostered folks are computer literate, that magazine doesn't get much play amongst the clergy. I only read it for Pastor Loci, since he is retired I find it very boring. Occasionally a good article, but we need a digital age update.

Jeff Ruby


Jeff writes:
You will be relieved to know that they don't teach myths in American history anymore. That is because most of the American history my kids are learning is selectively picked to showcase just certain parts of American history-mostly, that we are always the bad guys, for example, World War Two has two chapters on how terrrible we were to the Japanese AMerican (which we were), yet nothing on Hitler, Germany, or the Holocaust, nor anything about Pearl Harbor.

I comment:
Too bad you live where you do. In New Jersey, a section on the holocaust is a required part of the curriculum and every memorial day and veterans day, vets go to the schools and talk about their experiences.

Jeff writes;
Secondly, maybe one of the reasons the ELCA is declining in membership is that instead of attempting to understand why people are engrossed in American Idol we judge them and dismiss them, as you just did.

I comment:
And where did I "dismiss" those people? A media-awareness effort has always been part of my ministry, trying to get people to make consciencous and intelligent choices about media.

Jeff again:
Given we think The Lutheran and Lutheran Partners is still the way to reach people, I hold little hope for what we come up with in the digital flat world age.

Me again:
Well, Lutheran Partners isn't trying to "reach" folks outside, just the rostered people. And The Lutheran is not considered primarily an evangelism tool.
If that's all we were doing, I might agree. It isn't. And the issue is not what "the ELCA" does, but what we who deal with people in the parishes do.

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2007, 08:37:02 PM »
All that I can say in my astonishment, Peter, is that it seems to me that you do not know any environmentalists; or are guilty of the most bizarre kind of stereotyping of environmental views.

I thought Peter's description of a certain very common variety of environmentalism was spot on. That variety of environmentalism is a parody of itself, and doesn't need Peter to stereotype it.

Mike Bennett
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David Charlton

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2007, 10:24:05 PM »
Yes Mike, it was spot on about a certain kind of environmentalism.  But certainly not all.  It does not fit many, or I dare say most, environmentalists. 

Having lived in Florida most of my life, it is not rabid environmentalists who hold sway, but rabid developmentalists.  They hold that all growth is good, regardless of what it is.  Just travel US 192 west of Kissimmee, Florida if you don't believe me.  There you will find 13 miles of empty t-shirst shops, cheap motels, shopping malls, convenience stores, novelty shops.  Whenever anyone would raise and objection, the developers would label them environmental fanatics. 

If you want to talk about a "certain kind of environmentalist" then make it clear what kind you are talking about.

As to someone else's constant snide comments about Al Gore, I could just as easily make the same kind of comments about Our Supreme Leader, King George.  Usually, I try to leave my partisan political views at the door when I come on to this forum.  Boy, its a good thing a liar like Gore wasn't elected president, he might have led us to war based on false evidence!

David Charlton
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 10:34:44 PM by David Charlton »

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2007, 10:47:46 PM »
So the argument about "global warming as told by Al Gore" is politcal.  Huh, never would have guessed.  Thanks.  As for enviromentalism, the only type I see up here in my neck of the woods is the kind that thinks humanity is a hinderance to "mother nature".  This world would be so great if it wasn't for those pesky humans.  Also, to use the public school as a indoctrination camp where they are told that their parents are bad if they drive a pick-up truck or any other vehicle, well that is wrong. 

It has also been shown that E-85 and the those vehicles who run on regular gas as well as E-85 burn up more gas than a normal vehicle.  And the energy and infastructure required for E-85 does more harm and causes more money than good.  But it does feel good to when you feel like you are protecting "mother earth."  Also the same E-85 has done more harm than good for the people of Mexico as they have seen the price of tortiilas go way up.  But it does feel so good that you are doing something for the enviroment.

When we believe that we have the power to ultimately do great harm to something has grand as Creation, we truly have a problem.  But it doesn't surprise me when the same people who want to believe in this doom-gloom scenerio are the same that believe that we came from monkeys.  After all , it all happened by chance.

Heck, my wife is watching one of these insipid "Made for t.v. Christmas movies" and the child is asking Santa to solve "global warming."  To quote a great cartoon character, "Good Grief."

This is what our children are hearing in school, on the t.v., etc..  They are made to feel bad for having a S.U.V. or a old pickup.  They are told by their teachers that their parents need to get a better car because their parents are destroying the enviroment.  3 kids in catechism told me this.  It is this type of idiocy that I rail against, the type that has become the norm.




« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 10:51:08 PM by Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither »

David Charlton

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2007, 11:06:21 PM »
So you would say that it is only our sexual behavior that has consequences?  God will punish us for misusnig oiur own bodies.  But because God is creator, He will protect us from the consequences of our use or misuse of natural resources?  That doesn't seem to follow.  I think we are responsible for how we use all of God's gifts.

As to the misuse of of public education for partisan purposes, that certainly happens.  There was a certain Governor here in Florida who mandated a new testing regime.  Soon after, his brother began marketing software to help students "prepare" for the test.  The same governor used money from the the Florida teacher retirement fund to purchase Enron stock, continuing to do so even while it was tanking.  I don't remember whether that governer was a lib'ral or not.

David Charlton

P.S.  I was a member of the Republican Party in North Carolina in the 1980's.  I remember many there railing againt the hoax perpetrated by liberals, saying that tobacco caused cancer.  Public schools were even used to further this hoax.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 11:17:40 PM by David Charlton »

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2007, 11:13:22 PM »
Please note the last quote in this article as it fits in with what we are talking about.    This artilce came at just the right time. 

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2103433.ece
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 11:16:07 PM by Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither »