Author Topic: Herod is smiling  (Read 8775 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2007, 01:15:20 PM »
Idolatry is idiocy taken to the extreme, thus it too places the earth in peril. Witness the idolatry of Hilter, Pol Pot, Stalin or any of a hundred who in their idiocy thought they were God.
I once asked a psychiatrist why psychiatrists and clergy are high on the list of people who commit suicide. His answer was along the lines of, "They often think that they are god, and they will fail." Before looking at the extreme examples, we also need to be constantly aware of our own tendencies to try and rule the universe -- even if it's just the little universe of a congregation.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Gary Hatcher

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2007, 01:45:33 PM »
Idolatry is idiocy taken to the extreme, thus it too places the earth in peril.  Witness the idolatry of Hilter, Pol Pot, Stalin or any of a hundred who in their idiocy thought they were God.
I once asked a psychiatrist why psychiatrists and clergy are high on the list of people who commit suicide. His answer was along the lines of, "They often think that they are god, and they will fail." Before looking at the extreme examples, we also need to be constantly aware of our own tendencies to try and rule the universe -- even if it's just the little universe of a congregation.
Which is why humility, true Christ like humility, has been one of the chief goals of those seeking to follow the Savior.  The root sin of all humans is the desire to be like God.
Gary Hatcher STS,
Pastor St. Paul & First Lutheran Churches
Garnavillo & McGregor, IA

peter_speckhard

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2007, 01:49:12 PM »
Peter writes (re pollution):
the mountains that coal was mined from would have been nothing but pollution from day one.

I comment:
Peter! Thou knowest that those mountains "from day one" - if there was a "day one" - were not originally "mountains," nor were they coal. ;D ;D
Surely we agree that there was a day one. We probably don't agree as to roughly when it was, but sometime there had to be evening and morning, the first day. btw, did you all use the Thanksgiving OT text in which God describes the Promised Land as a place where the people can dig copper out of the hills? Does that sound like an environmentally sound sort of gift?

This is a thought experiment I've used here (I think) before. Imagine the discovery of another earth inaccessibly far out there exactly like our own in every way except that there are no people on it. Would the existence of plenty of "virgin" wilderness, say, in the arctic region of that planet free us up to explore for oil in ours? How much virgin wilderness is enough? Somehow I doubt our environmentalists would take that approach to the discovery. Why? Because we can't go to that other planet, so even though it is pristine and natural, it does us no good. But what this reveals to me is that all the practical reasons commonly given for environmental extremism are mere masks for religious zeal. And it is an anti-human religion, and it is becoming more mainstream every day.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2007, 03:03:34 PM »
So, Peter, do we have any responsibility as the people of God - those of us who may be that, understanding that to some all are not - to care for the earth and its air and water? Or is it all a "religion" of environmental extremism that may actually be getting in the way of God, who is winding things down in Creation?

pr dtp

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2007, 03:35:15 PM »
The Worship of Molech rises again.....

Even the worship of Ba'al and Asherah wasn't this bad...(though it too brought God's wrath, temporal and eternal) with them, you were the only one to suffer.  With this idolator, innocents are killed prior to even hearing of God's word.

As to anyone who think idiots are more dangerous than idolators, did you ever have any of those you shepherded swayed by such idolators, and thereby abandon their faith and salvation?  If you can think of them, and honestly make your statement, please leave the ministry far behind.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2007, 04:39:36 PM »
So, Peter, do we have any responsibility as the people of God - those of us who may be that, understanding that to some all are not - to care for the earth and its air and water?
Of course we do. My point is that the definition of "clean" as opposed to "polluted" air hinges on us. If it is good for us to breath, it is clean. People in third world countries do not have clean water; they have naturally occuring water sources instead of processed water. Properly understood, caring for the environment can mean changing it every bit as much as leacing it alone. Perfectly natural things like radon seepage are "pollution" in our basements because even though the radon was there first, we don't want it there. My objection to environmentalists is that when they say "care for" they tend to mean "leave alone". Thus, for them, coal inside a mountain is not pollution, but coal outside a mountain is. If God gave us hills to dig copper out of, the environmentalist would insist that we leave the copper in the hills. It is as though human hands are the Midas Touch of pollution; if we drilled for oil in Alaska, the land would somehow be ruined thereby. What is that oil for? If we take oil out of a cavern, that is polluting. And if we put oil into a cavern, that would also be polluting. The only thing to do is leave everything alone and call that "care" for the environment. This is the view that leads to the idiocy of the woman in the article that started this thread, and it is far more mainstream than most environmentalists would like to admit--that people are pollution. A proper view of the relationship between Man and the environment is far more pro-development than most environmental groups would ever sign off on.

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2007, 08:44:10 PM »
The problem arises when we treat the creation as the Creator.  This is often the case with enviromentalism.  First the earth was going to freeze, yet it has not.  Then the earth is supposed to be ABLAZE!tm, still waiting (esp. up here in Lake Superior country)

Christians are called to be stewards of the enviroment.

It is interesting though that the man who brought "global warming" to our attention is also the same man who sells DVDs and "carbon credit" indullgences for those who are upset about flying, etc...  There was a RC church in my area that had a viewing of said DVD in their parish with its 12 known falsehoods in the DVD (so saith the British who now sell the DVD with a warning label of sorts)

David Charlton

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2007, 08:58:50 PM »
So, Peter, do we have any responsibility as the people of God - those of us who may be that, understanding that to some all are not - to care for the earth and its air and water?
Of course we do. My point is that the definition of "clean" as opposed to "polluted" air hinges on us. If it is good for us to breath, it is clean. People in third world countries do not have clean water; they have naturally occuring water sources instead of processed water. Properly understood, caring for the environment can mean changing it every bit as much as leacing it alone. Perfectly natural things like radon seepage are "pollution" in our basements because even though the radon was there first, we don't want it there. My objection to environmentalists is that when they say "care for" they tend to mean "leave alone". Thus, for them, coal inside a mountain is not pollution, but coal outside a mountain is. If God gave us hills to dig copper out of, the environmentalist would insist that we leave the copper in the hills. It is as though human hands are the Midas Touch of pollution; if we drilled for oil in Alaska, the land would somehow be ruined thereby. What is that oil for? If we take oil out of a cavern, that is polluting. And if we put oil into a cavern, that would also be polluting. The only thing to do is leave everything alone and call that "care" for the environment. This is the view that leads to the idiocy of the woman in the article that started this thread, and it is far more mainstream than most environmentalists would like to admit--that people are pollution. A proper view of the relationship between Man and the environment is far more pro-development than most environmental groups would ever sign off on.

Peter,

As a person who agrees with you most of the time, I have to say I find your blanket portrayal of environmentalists insulting.  I have been an environmentalist most of my life.  I still am, belonging to the Audobon Society and Nature Conservancy.  Saying all environmentalists are like the woman who aborted her child is like saying all those who are Pro-Life are like Eric Rudolf.  You are trafficking in stereo-types as much as liberals do when they say that conservatives are are hungry for war. 

Don't worry, I don't think a concern for the environment will ever eclipse our desire for more.  Most communities in America will pursue unlimited growth regardless of the environmental consequences.  The future is bright!

David Charlton

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2007, 09:22:31 PM »
Mystery writer P.D. James wrote and interesting novel called "Children of Men." Self indulgent adults, practicing abortion, birth controll and sterilization suddenly discover that the human race has become sterile.  It seems that God has granted modern humanity its wish.  Depression and meaninglessness ensue.  Comfort, entertainment and an easy death are the best one can wish for.  Sounds familiar.

David Charlton 

Charles_Austin

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2007, 10:29:22 PM »
All that I can say in my astonishment, Peter, is that it seems to me that you do not know any environmentalists; or are guilty of the most bizarre kind of stereotyping of environmental views.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2007, 10:33:38 PM »
Someone hiding under a phony name, who has been in this forum for less than one month and has blasted out only 42 postings, none of them sounding very sincere in dialog with the rest of us, says of my post upstream:

As to anyone who think idiots are more dangerous than idolators, did you ever have any of those you shepherded swayed by such idolators, and thereby abandon their faith and salvation?  If you can think of them, and honestly make your statement, please leave the ministry far behind.

To which I respond:
What a load of codswallop! I'd suggest that you have the decency to engage in some honest and serious fraternal conversation, treating the others like fellow members of the body of Christ, before you start telling us to "leave the ministry far behind".

peter_speckhard

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2007, 10:41:10 PM »
So, Peter, do we have any responsibility as the people of God - those of us who may be that, understanding that to some all are not - to care for the earth and its air and water?
Of course we do. My point is that the definition of "clean" as opposed to "polluted" air hinges on us. If it is good for us to breath, it is clean. People in third world countries do not have clean water; they have naturally occuring water sources instead of processed water. Properly understood, caring for the environment can mean changing it every bit as much as leacing it alone. Perfectly natural things like radon seepage are "pollution" in our basements because even though the radon was there first, we don't want it there. My objection to environmentalists is that when they say "care for" they tend to mean "leave alone". Thus, for them, coal inside a mountain is not pollution, but coal outside a mountain is. If God gave us hills to dig copper out of, the environmentalist would insist that we leave the copper in the hills. It is as though human hands are the Midas Touch of pollution; if we drilled for oil in Alaska, the land would somehow be ruined thereby. What is that oil for? If we take oil out of a cavern, that is polluting. And if we put oil into a cavern, that would also be polluting. The only thing to do is leave everything alone and call that "care" for the environment. This is the view that leads to the idiocy of the woman in the article that started this thread, and it is far more mainstream than most environmentalists would like to admit--that people are pollution. A proper view of the relationship between Man and the environment is far more pro-development than most environmental groups would ever sign off on.

Peter,

As a person who agrees with you most of the time, I have to say I find your blanket portrayal of environmentalists insulting. I have been an environmentalist most of my life. I still am, belonging to the Audobon Society and Nature Conservancy. Saying all environmentalists are like the woman who aborted her child is like saying all those who are Pro-Life are like Eric Rudolf. You are trafficking in stereo-types as much as liberals do when they say that conservatives are are hungry for war.

Don't worry, I don't think a concern for the environment will ever eclipse our desire for more. Most communities in America will pursue unlimited growth regardless of the environmental consequences. The future is bright!

David Charlton
David, I never said all environmentalists are like the woman who aborted her child. You're hearing a lot more than I'm saying. I'm saying that the view that "caring for" the environment really means "leaving it alone" is becoming more mainstream within the environmental movement, and it stems from a worldview of man's relationship to nature that I think is not Christian at all, and, followed logically, does lead to this woman's views. There is a big difference between stewardship and preservation or conservation. Certainly many environmentalists do not share this eco-religious worldview, which is why it is important for them most of all to speak out against it lest their movement be co-opted. I'm all for a "green" outlook as long as we understand that its value comes from people who prefer grass to pavement, clean air to smoky air, rivers filled with fish rather than dead rivers, etc. and not from some implied moral obligation to leave the world the exact same as we found it. There is a plce for conservation and preservation-- people like "unspoiled land. There ought to be some set aside. But not because it was holy the way it was and rearranging it would spoil it, but because most people want some set aside. But it isn't a matter of "the more set aside the better". And the issue does come up, especially regarding land management and any sort of development, be it housing, mining, logging, damming a river for energy, or whatever. My thesis is that caring for the environment and being good stewards of the land means changing it just as often as it means leaving it alone.

David Charlton

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2007, 11:00:25 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for the clarification. 

I also agree with you that preservation and development should not be pitted against each other if we want to care for the environment.  For one thing, it ain't gonna happen.  For another thing, as a critic from within the environmental movement has pointed out, only wealthy countries with free market economies have the luxury of  protecting the environment.

David Charlton

peter_speckhard

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2007, 11:02:44 PM »
All that I can say in my astonishment, Peter, is that it seems to me that you do not know any environmentalists; or are guilty of the most bizarre kind of stereotyping of environmental views.
To what stereotype do you refer? You're wrong, of course. I know many environmentalists. But I'm a little insulted that you think I was talking about all of them. I never said that. But I was talking about a sizable and growing number of them, and if you don't think that is true, then you're astonishingly ignorant of the issue because you look at it through a lens that refuses to see the less than Christian philosophical underpinnings employed by these (not ALL, but some) environmentalists.

The only sterotype I can see in my post was that when they say "care for" they "tend to mean" (not everyone all the time, explicitly, but as a tendency) "leave alone", which I maintain is an accurate portrayal. Honestly, speech is not possible if that description amounts to an overly broad-brush stereotype. You have to be able to label a tendency as distinct from a blanket law, and since I clearly and explicitly did the former and not the latter, it is inappropriate of you to respond as though I did the latter. As a writer, you knew that, of course. But then, you're from out East so I should have expected as much.

grabau14

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Re: Herod is smiling
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2007, 11:57:02 PM »
Peter,

I don't know about you, but I have had several students in confirmation (here in Duluth/Superior) ask me if we are destroying the earth like that DVD from the former V.P. shows?   Middle School kids watching this movie in Social Studies and science classes. They are distraught and think that we have the power to destroy creation all because of some inspiid movie. 

I am a conservationist.  I take part in being a steward of creation.  Envirmomentalism has become a "relgion" to a growing number of people.  And this "relgion" is one that sees the earth as first and humanity as  not necessary.  One only needs to look at the op-ed pieces of many of these folks to this as a relgion.  One even went so far as calling the former V.P., Noah.

It is sad and disturbing, especially when these kids have to sit and listen to this.