Author Topic: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC  (Read 19895 times)

Marshall_Hahn

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Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« on: November 02, 2007, 02:35:02 PM »
The Diocese of Pittsburgh is expected to vote today on whether or not to begin the process of leaving The Episcopal Church.  You can read the details here:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07306/830551-85.stm
A couple excerpts from the article outline the debate:

"Resolution 1, which is expected to pass easily, would allow the diocese to define itself as a 'constituent member' of the Anglican Communion and disaffiliate from the American church, realigning with another province after a second vote at next year's convention."

"Resolution 2 seeks to change the language of the diocese's constitution to reflect that it 'accedes to, recognizes and adopts the Constitution and Canons of [the] Church, and acknowledges its authority accordingly.'

It is not expected to pass."

Since this is the diocese of Bishop Duncan, the leader of the "Network" bishops, what takes place in Pittsburgh will have a great deal of effect elsewhere in the TEC.  For the readers here, and, in particular, the ELCA participants, I would encourage you to join with me in praying for our full communion partners in the TEC as these events unfold.    May God guide them in the decisions they make.

Marshall Hahn

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2007, 02:46:55 PM »
Letter from the Presiding Bishop to Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan

The Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan
Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Bob,

There have been numerous public references in recent weeks regarding resolutions to be introduced at your forthcoming diocesan convention. Those resolutions, if adopted, would amend several of your diocesan canons and begin the process of amending one or more provisions of your diocesan Constitution. I have reviewed a number of these proposed resolutions, and it is evident to me that they would violate the Constitutional requirement that the Diocese conform to the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church. It is apparent from your pre-convention report that you endorse these proposed changes. I am also aware of other of your statements and actions in recent months that demonstrate an intention to lead your diocese into a position that would purportedly permit it to depart from The Episcopal Church. All these efforts, in my view, display a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between The Episcopal Church and its dioceses. Our Constitution explicitly provides that a diocese must accede to the Constitution and Canons of the Church.

I call upon you to recede from this direction and to lead your diocese on a new course that recognizes the interdependent and hierarchical relationship between the national Church and its dioceses and parishes. That relationship is at the heart of our mission, as expressed in our polity. Specifically, I sincerely hope that you will change your position and urge your diocese at its forthcoming convention not to adopt the resolutions that you have until now supported.

If your course does not change, I shall regrettably be compelled to see that appropriate canonical steps are promptly taken to consider whether you have abandoned the Communion of this Church -- by actions and substantive statements, however they may be phrased -- and whether you have committed canonical offences that warrant disciplinary action.

It grieves me that any bishop of this Church would seek to lead any of its members out of it. I would remind you of my open offer of an Episcopal Visitor if you wish to receive pastoral care from another bishop. I continue to pray for reconciliation of this situation, and I remain

Your servant in Christ,

Katharine Jefferts Schori

LutherMan

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 02:49:39 PM »
Wasn't Jefferts Schori the heretic who said something along the lines that Jesus isn't the only way to heaven?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 03:03:02 PM »
Someone posts:
Wasn't Jefferts Schori the heretic who said something along the lines that Jesus isn't the only way to heaven?

I lament:
This ALPB forum is rapidly becoming like that other place (the Freep or Creep forum or whatever). Anonymous posters blasting away with their assault rifles. Presiding Bishop Jefferts Shori deserves the title of her office and the respect due that office, no matter what one might think of her views. And if one wants to brand a person a "heretic," (which her church has not done), common decency would require more than a blithe "something along the lines" of as "proof."
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 03:05:38 PM by Charles_Austin »

LutherMan

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 03:11:57 PM »
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/22006a.asp

ECUSA's Incoming Leader: Homosexuality Not a Choice, Jesus Not the Only Way
Comments by Jefferts-Schori During Interview Appear to Contradict Scripture


Looks like heresy to me...


Charles_Austin

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 03:20:00 PM »
The anonymous poster says:
Looks like heresy to me...

I comment:
Doesn't matter what it looks like to you. We don't judge "heresy" as individuals. Churches have procedures and courts for doing that. And if you're making your judgment on information from a partisan website, there are other problems.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 04:24:03 PM »
Wasn't Jefferts Schori the heretic who said something along the lines that Jesus isn't the only way to heaven?
If so, how did Abraham get into heaven hundreds of years before Jesus' birth?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 04:32:27 PM »
Letter from the Presiding Bishop to Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan

The Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan
Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Bob,

There have been numerous public references in recent weeks regarding resolutions to be introduced at your forthcoming diocesan convention. Those resolutions, if adopted, would amend several of your diocesan canons and begin the process of amending one or more provisions of your diocesan Constitution. I have reviewed a number of these proposed resolutions, and it is evident to me that they would violate the Constitutional requirement that the Diocese conform to the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church. It is apparent from your pre-convention report that you endorse these proposed changes. I am also aware of other of your statements and actions in recent months that demonstrate an intention to lead your diocese into a position that would purportedly permit it to depart from The Episcopal Church. All these efforts, in my view, display a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between The Episcopal Church and its dioceses. Our Constitution explicitly provides that a diocese must accede to the Constitution and Canons of the Church...
[snip]

Your servant in Christ,

Katharine Jefferts Schor

According to the StandFirminFaith website, there has been a reply:

The Most Revd Katharine Jefferts Schori
Episcopal Church Center
New York, New York

Dear Katharine,

Here I stand. I can do no other. I will neither compromise the Faith once delivered to the saints, nor will I abandon the sheep who elected me to protect them.

Pax et bonum in Christ Jesus our Lord,

+Bob Pittsburgh


http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7316/

And from the diocese official website:
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/pbresponse110207

Sounds vaguely familiar...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 04:39:47 PM by MaddogLutheran »
Sterling Spatz
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 05:02:08 PM »
Wasn't Jefferts Schori the heretic who said something along the lines that Jesus isn't the only way to heaven?
If so, how did Abraham get into heaven hundreds of years before Jesus' birth?
Um, doesn't even the Roman Catholic catechism get this one right?  God may provide a way for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel to reach paradise.  We just don't know exactly how that works.

For myself, I would not be so casual at throwing the heretic anathema at a particular person.  I tried to make this point in a previous thread about the presiding bishop -- it is a dereliction of her office as a bishop of the church to proclaim anything other than Jesus is the only way.  It dilutes the message of the gospel.   Proclaiming Jesus as the only way doesn't mean that God doesn't provide other ways, just that as Christians our knowledge is limited -- we do not know the mind of God, and we should not try to extrapolate beyond His revelation to us.  I know unfortunately that some consider these self-restraints as not inclusive enough.  Oh well. It is not offered with any malice.  I am not free to emend what Scripture plainly says.

Sterling Spatz
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Marshall_Hahn

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 05:10:30 PM »
As my original post indicated, my first desire is for us to lift up in prayer those in this diocese and in The Episcopal Church in general, including Bishop Duncan and Presiding Bishop Schori.  Whatever any of us think of the wisdom or foolishness of the actions and statements by either of them and the entities they serve, this is a time of great consequence for these, our sisters and brothers in Christ.  I pray constantly that others will judge my thoughts, statements, actions and reaction to the turmoil in our church with compassion and forgiveness.  May we grant the same here.

Gracious Father, we pray for your holy catholic Church.  Fill her with all truth and peace.  Where she is corrupt, purify her; where she is in error, direct her; where in anything she is amiss, reform her; whre she is right, strengthen her; where she is in need, provide for her; where she is divided, reunite her; for the sake of Jesus Christ, your Son our Savior.

God our Father, your Son Jesus prayed that His followers might be one.  Make all Christians one with Him as He is one with you, so that in peace and concord we may carry to the world the message of your love; through your Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.

Marshall Hahn

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 05:24:33 PM »


According to the StandFirminFaith website, there has been a reply:

The Most Revd Katharine Jefferts Schori
Episcopal Church Center
New York, New York

Dear Katharine,

Here I stand. I can do no other. I will neither compromise the Faith once delivered to the saints, nor will I abandon the sheep who elected me to protect them.

Pax et bonum in Christ Jesus our Lord,

+Bob Pittsburgh


http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7316/

And from the diocese official website:
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/pbresponse110207

Sounds vaguely familiar...

I wonder what his plans are for the parishes who do not wish to leave? Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.
John Dornheim

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2007, 07:45:52 PM »
The Diocese of Pittsburgh has passed Resolution 1 which will begin the process of disaffiliating with The Episcopal Church.  Vote Totals - Lay: 118 Yea, 58 Nay, 1 Abstain;  Clergy: 109 Yea, 24 Nay, 0 Abstain.
The rationale for this resolution is given on the diocesan website at
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/Conventions/convention2007/ResOneFAQ101707.pdf

This is the first of 3 votes that would be needed to complete the disaffilliation, as the rationale states:

"The vote on Resolution 1 does not immediately accomplish dis-affiliation from the
Episcopal Church or cause a realignment of the Diocese with another Province. In fact
this vote does not even amend the Constitution. It is the first step in what would be a
three step process that would give the Diocese freedom to dis-affiliate and realign by a
decision of its diocesan convention at a future time. Those three steps are: (i) a vote to
amend the Constitution at this Convention, (ii) a second vote to amend the Constitution at
the next annual Convention, (tentatively slated for November of 2008) and finally (iii) a
separate and third vote at an annual convention to adopt a canon that specifies
membership in a province other than TEC."

As to what will happen with those who are in disagreegment with this action in the diocese, the rationale has this:

"Between First and Second Readings (November 2007 – November 2008)
Assuming the passage of Resolution One, it would be in this period that a discussion
would be undertaken about which Anglican Province to affiliate with upon dis-affiliation
from the Episcopal Church.
It would be in this period that determinations and negotiations would be undertaken as to
how the minority (those who disagree with the dis-affiliation) would be charitably and
equitably treated, including the hope that they would remain a part of the Diocese and
continue to benefit from its resources and mission strategy.
It would be in this period that the possibility of a mediated settlement in the best interests
of all parties might be accomplished."

Of course, all of this is subject to the objections from TEC rasied in Bishop Schori's letter, and the possible actions TEC may take.  While I sympathize with the actions the diocese has taken and the direction Bishop Duncan is leading, I have no illusions that this is an easy road that they are on, nor that it is settled as to what may eventually come of it.

Marshall Hahn

frluther1517

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2007, 08:04:24 PM »


According to the StandFirminFaith website, there has been a reply:

The Most Revd Katharine Jefferts Schori
Episcopal Church Center
New York, New York

Dear Katharine,

Here I stand. I can do no other. I will neither compromise the Faith once delivered to the saints, nor will I abandon the sheep who elected me to protect them.

Pax et bonum in Christ Jesus our Lord,

+Bob Pittsburgh


http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7316/

And from the diocese official website:
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/pbresponse110207

Sounds vaguely familiar...

I wonder what his plans are for the parishes who do not wish to leave? Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.
John Dornheim

So it's okay to belittle and slam bishops of the Church as long as we don't use the "h" word.  Good to know.  In another thread you praise pacifists who are conscience bound.  Here is a bishop consceince bound on matters of faith and you slam him.  Lord have mercy.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 08:25:43 PM by Rev. Ian Wolfe, STS »

Scott4

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2007, 08:22:48 PM »
So it's okay to belittle and slam bishops of the Church as long as we don't use the "h" word.  Good to know.  In another thread you praise pacificsts who are conscience bound.  Here is a bishop consceince bound on matters of faith and you slam him.  Lord have mercy.

Don't worry.  I'm sure that in a little while you'll be treated to an interesting "spelling out" so that you can understand how this really is consistent, but you're just too dull to get it right now.  All will be made better.  ;D

frluther1517

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2007, 08:31:04 PM »
So it's okay to belittle and slam bishops of the Church as long as we don't use the "h" word.  Good to know.  In another thread you praise pacificsts who are conscience bound.  Here is a bishop consceince bound on matters of faith and you slam him.  Lord have mercy.

Don't worry.  I'm sure that in a little while you'll be treated to an interesting "spelling out" so that you can understand how this really is consistent, but you're just too dull to get it right now.  All will be made better.  ;D

I can't wait...

may I also say I've missed your posts Scott