Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC

[Scott4]

Dave, I watched the good bishop, as you call him, on late night TV for three+ years in PA. I came to an informed conclusion and I am not slamming him, just pointing out something which I observed.

John Dornheim

You're appealing to an "informed conclusion" based on "late night TV"?  How is that qualitatively different than "trust me when I crank on him -- if you were as informed as I (and already agreed with me), you'd crank on him just like I'm happy to crank on him"?

Because I have no intention on "cranking on him" whatever that might mean.

John Dornheim

Yet:

Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.
John Dornheim

So this was just a paen of praise for Luther with no negative (my use of "crank") implications for Bishop Duncan intended?

[John Dornheim]

So this was just a paen of praise for Luther with no negative (my use of "crank") implications for Bishop Duncan intended?

Yes. I guess crank is a colloquial expression of which I am happily unfamiliar.

John Dornheim

[pr dtp]

1. Jesus is the way to the Father, not any particular doctrine, not an individual's faith, but Jesus -- and as God, Jesus can do what he wants to do, even grant the way to the Father to those who don't believe -- that is, unless you want to make "belief" the way to the Father rather than Jesus.

2. It is noteworthy that Jesus does not say that he is the way to God. I think that it is significant. For us to understand God as Father requires the presence of the Son. As Paul indicates in Romans 1, God is known to all people. God's power is known to all people. Even insurance companies recognize "acts of God". What they don't know without Jesus is the relationship of God to us as Father.

Yet, in the story about the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham is seemingly pictured in heaven. Did he not then receive what was promised?

Thus, I do not get too upset by the presiding bishop's remarks. When I get to heaven, I will believe that all the people are there because of Jesus.

Regarding point 1.  So Jesus did not mean what he said - that he is the only way to the Father, and NO man goes to the father but by Him? 

Regarding point 2.  Wow... did not realize that when Jesus says "I am "the" way, that he didn't mean "the" way.  And that truth and the life are not also definitive statements.  Btw - just because they know of God, that doesn't mean that knowledge is equivelant to saving knowledge.  See James 2 on that, as well as the Large Catechism's comments about Jews Turks and Heathens worshipping God to their denomination.  Knowledge doesn't predispose salvation.

Regarding Abraham's bosom - where do you get the idea that this is heaven?

[Brian Stoffregen]

1. Jesus is the way to the Father, not any particular doctrine, not an individual's faith, but Jesus -- and as God, Jesus can do what he wants to do, even grant the way to the Father to those who don't believe -- that is, unless you want to make "belief" the way to the Father rather than Jesus.

2. It is noteworthy that Jesus does not say that he is the way to God. I think that it is significant. For us to understand God as Father requires the presence of the Son. As Paul indicates in Romans 1, God is known to all people. God's power is known to all people. Even insurance companies recognize "acts of God". What they don't know without Jesus is the relationship of God to us as Father.

Yet, in the story about the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham is seemingly pictured in heaven. Did he not then receive what was promised?

Thus, I do not get too upset by the presiding bishop's remarks. When I get to heaven, I will believe that all the people are there because of Jesus.

Regarding point 1.  So Jesus did not mean what he said - that he is the only way to the Father, and NO man goes to the father but by Him? 

Regarding point 2.  Wow... did not realize that when Jesus says "I am "the" way, that he didn't mean "the" way.  And that truth and the life are not also definitive statements.  Btw - just because they know of God, that doesn't mean that knowledge is equivelant to saving knowledge.  See James 2 on that, as well as the Large Catechism's comments about Jews Turks and Heathens worshipping God to their denomination.  Knowledge doesn't predispose salvation.

Regarding Abraham's bosom - where do you get the idea that this is heaven?

Regarding point 1. Jesus meant exactly what he said. He is the way to the Father. That means our faith, our interpretations of scriptures, our beliefs about homosexuality or adultery or abortion are not the way to the Father.

Regarding point 2: Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. That means our faith, our interpretations of scriptures, our beliefs about homosexuality or adultery or abortion or even our knowledge about God are not the way to the Father. It's not about us. It's about Jesus. It's not about our knowledge or even faith, it's about Jesus.

Where else would Abraham's bosom be? We believe that are two places one may go after death: Heaven or hell -- unless you believe in purgatory. In the story, "Abraham's bosom" certainly is not hell, so that only leaves heaven.

[Charles_Austin]

Forgive the Zen-ish musing, but....
Might Jesus be the way for people reaching God (and successfully finding God) even if they don't know he iis the way?
I don't think I'd preach that, but I might wonder about it.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Forgive the Zen-ish musing, but....
Might Jesus be the way for people reaching God (and successfully finding God) even if they don't know he iis the way?
I don't think I'd preach that, but I might wonder about it.

Exactly my point when I said, "When I get to heaven, I will believe that all the people are there because of Jesus."

Similarly, whether people believe it or not, they are created by God. Their beliefs about a god, or gods, or no gods, doesn't change the fact that the Triune God was involved in their creation -- and, if we follow Luther's explanation of the First Article -- God is involved in providing all people what they need from day to day -- whether they recognize it or not, whether they thank and praise God for it or not.

[David Charlton]

Brian,

What you are talking about in Christo-centric Universalism.  This view says that there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and one savior, Jesus Christ.  All who are saved are saved through Jesus Christ, whether they know it or not.  That is the view that Walt Bouman expressed in his article in the Lutheran just before his death.

I believe that Jefferts-Schori is being accused of another form of universalism that is closer to Universalist-Unitarianism.  This says that there are many paths to god and many saviors, all of which are equally valid. 

David

[edoughty]

Brian,

What you are talking about in Christo-centric Universalism.  This view says that there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and one savior, Jesus Christ.  All who are saved are saved through Jesus Christ, whether they know it or not.  That is the view that Walt Bouman expressed in his article in the Lutheran just before his death.

I believe that Jefferts-Schori is being accused of another form of universalism that is closer to Universalist-Unitarianism.  This says that there are many paths to god and many saviors, all of which are equally valid. 

David

I don't know that she goes that far, at least not what I've read.  What I've seen is more along the lines of an admission that she does not completely know the mind of God and that she chooses to not assume the way that is The Way for Christians is the way for everybody else.

Erik Doughty
Minneapolis, MN

[Sublime_Harbinger]

I don't know that she goes that far, at least not what I've read.  What I've seen is more along the lines of an admission that she does not completely know the mind of God and that she chooses to not assume the way that is The Way for Christians is the way for everybody else.

I'm not sure how that would be different than what David has described above.

[edoughty]

I don't know that she goes that far, at least not what I've read.  What I've seen is more along the lines of an admission that she does not completely know the mind of God and that she chooses to not assume the way that is The Way for Christians is the way for everybody else.

I'm not sure how that would be different than what David has described above.

It's quite different.  "I don't know the mind of God fully" is much different than saying "I believe all paths are equal."

Erik Doughty
Minneapolis, MN

[David Charlton]

I don't know enough to place her in either category either.  I'm sure she wanted to avoid a headline such as, "Episcopal Leader Says non-Christians Going to Hell."

David Charlton

[revklak]

I don't know enough to place her in either category either.  I'm sure she wanted to avoid a headline such as, "Episcopal Leader Says non-Christians Going to Hell."

David Charlton

I don't know her personally myself, but I've seen and heard enough from her to indicate that the gospel is reduced to acceptance and no repentance/new life -- that is, of course, unless you stand firm in the faith on orthodox/traditional teachings and practices of the faith.

[Brian Stoffregen]

I don't know her personally myself, but I've seen and heard enough from her to indicate that the gospel is reduced to acceptance and no repentance/new life -- that is, of course, unless you stand firm in the faith on orthodox/traditional teachings and practices of the faith.

So if a baptized infant dies before reaching the age of being able to repent by confessing sins and receiving forgiveness, they cannot be saved by God? Does God accept infants before they are able to repent and receive the new life given in Christ or does God's acceptance depend on something we do first?

[revklak]

I don't know her personally myself, but I've seen and heard enough from her to indicate that the gospel is reduced to acceptance and no repentance/new life -- that is, of course, unless you stand firm in the faith on orthodox/traditional teachings and practices of the faith.

So if a baptized infant dies before reaching the age of being able to repent by confessing sins and receiving forgiveness, they cannot be saved by God? Does God accept infants before they are able to repent and receive the new life given in Christ or does God's acceptance depend on something we do first?

Not even related to what I was saying....  Can God make a stone too big for Him to lift?

[John Dornheim]

I don't know her personally myself, but I've seen and heard enough from her to indicate that the gospel is reduced to acceptance and no repentance/new life -- that is, of course, unless you stand firm in the faith on orthodox/traditional teachings and practices of the faith.

So if a baptized infant dies before reaching the age of being able to repent by confessing sins and receiving forgiveness, they cannot be saved by God? Does God accept infants before they are able to repent and receive the new life given in Christ or does God's acceptance depend on something we do first?

Perhaps what might be more applicable is would God punish a child whose parent(s) didn't take the time to see that the child was baptized?

John Dornheim