Author Topic: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC  (Read 19896 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 08:31:40 PM »
Um, doesn't even the Roman Catholic catechism get this one right?  God may provide a way for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel to reach paradise.  We just don't know exactly how that works.
Uh, the gospel is not exactly the same as Jesus of Nazareth. I'm sure that Abraham heard the gospel. The good news of God's grace is found many places in the OT -- prior to the coming of Jesus.

Too simply stated, when a group emphasizes the first person of God as creator, that more easily leads to multiple ways that the creator of all people can use to save people. You even admit that in regards to God's other ways for those who don't know Jesus. When a group emphasizes the second person of God as the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, that more easily leads to "only through Jesus" type language for salvation. When a group emphasizes the third person of God the Spirit, that more easily leads to personal experiences, such as speaking in tongues that is necessary for salvation. There are different understandings of salvation that are somewhat dependent upon which person one emphasizes.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Marshall_Hahn

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2007, 08:44:14 PM »
To hear from Bishop Duncan's own words, you may read his diocesan address here:

http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/duncanaddress110207

His advice for dealing with those in the minority are given here:

"It is clear to most on both sides, that continuing efforts to convince, at best, and coerce, at worst, will only deepen the failure of all.  A charitable and gracious provision for the minority to stay within the realigned fellowship of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh or to be given freedom to separate from us and align more directly with the wider Episcopal Church has also emerged as a course for which there is, I believe, a strengthening consensus."

And his suggestions for dealing with diocesan property is stated here:

"It is in this spirit that I share with you one of my convictions about what our God is calling us to in our stewardship of assets in the years ahead of us.  It is my growing conviction that all the things we presently hold in common need to continue to be administered for the good of all, even if we find ourselves in two different Anglican Provinces at the end of the day."

Granted, as I say, I am sympathetic to his underlying position, but it seems to me that he is attempting to separate from TEC in a gracious and Christian manner.

Marshall Hahn


Erma_S._Wolf

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2007, 11:08:31 PM »
Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.

    As are we all, John; as are we all.

Erma Wolf

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 11:11:12 PM »
Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.

    As are we all, John; as are we all.

Erma Wolf

Yes, I know, Erma. They just sound really funny coming from him. I always thought he left TEC years ago.

John Dornheim

pr dtp

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2007, 11:14:54 PM »
Um, doesn't even the Roman Catholic catechism get this one right?  God may provide a way for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel to reach paradise.  We just don't know exactly how that works.
Uh, the gospel is not exactly the same as Jesus of Nazareth. I'm sure that Abraham heard the gospel. The good news of God's grace is found many places in the OT -- prior to the coming of Jesus.

Too simply stated, when a group emphasizes the first person of God as creator, that more easily leads to multiple ways that the creator of all people can use to save people. You even admit that in regards to God's other ways for those who don't know Jesus. When a group emphasizes the second person of God as the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, that more easily leads to "only through Jesus" type language for salvation. When a group emphasizes the third person of God the Spirit, that more easily leads to personal experiences, such as speaking in tongues that is necessary for salvation. There are different understandings of salvation that are somewhat dependent upon which person one emphasizes.

It would seem to me this applies clearly,

6 Jesus said to him, "I am  the way, and  the truth, and  the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7  If you had known me, you would have  known my Father also. From now on you do know him and  have seen him." John 14,


as to Abraham and those prior to the resurrection, try "Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


Scott4

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 11:17:06 PM »
Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.

    As are we all, John; as are we all.

Erma Wolf

Yes, I know, Erma. They just sound really funny coming from him. I always thought he left TEC years ago.

John Dornheim

Yes, we know your opinion, John.  You already said as much (for those who actually needed you to vocalize your cognitive processes).

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 11:24:07 PM »
Bp Duncan can offer up Luther's words as much as he wishes but he is dwarfed by Luther in every way.

    As are we all, John; as are we all.

Erma Wolf

Yes, I know, Erma. They just sound really funny coming from him. I always thought he left TEC years ago.

John Dornheim

Yes, we know your opinion, John.  You already said as much (for those who actually needed you to vocalize your cognitive processes).

Sco tt, it is called conversation. I realize it might be an art form, so why not just sit back and watch it unfold?

John Dornheim

Scott4

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2007, 11:40:20 PM »
Yes, we know your opinion, John.  You already said as much (for those who actually needed you to vocalize your cognitive processes).

Sco tt, it is called conversation. I realize it might be an art form, so why not just sit back and watch it unfold?

John Dornheim

Chuckle. 

You do realize that I'm just responding as you respond to Paul, right?  :D  (No matter what, I fully expect you to now expect what I just said you expected.)

As to wanting me to sit back, thanks for the compliment.

As to you judging who most resembles Luther, well, there's another whole chuckle.  ;D

Gladfelteri

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 11:47:48 PM »
Letter from the Presiding Bishop to Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan

The Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan
Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Bob,

There have been numerous public references in recent weeks regarding resolutions to be introduced at your forthcoming diocesan convention. Those resolutions, if adopted, would amend several of your diocesan canons and begin the process of amending one or more provisions of your diocesan Constitution. I have reviewed a number of these proposed resolutions, and it is evident to me that they would violate the Constitutional requirement that the Diocese conform to the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church. It is apparent from your pre-convention report that you endorse these proposed changes. I am also aware of other of your statements and actions in recent months that demonstrate an intention to lead your diocese into a position that would purportedly permit it to depart from The Episcopal Church. All these efforts, in my view, display a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between The Episcopal Church and its dioceses. Our Constitution explicitly provides that a diocese must accede to the Constitution and Canons of the Church...
[snip]

Your servant in Christ,

Katharine Jefferts Schor

According to the StandFirminFaith website, there has been a reply:

The Most Revd Katharine Jefferts Schori
Episcopal Church Center
New York, New York

Dear Katharine,

Here I stand. I can do no other. I will neither compromise the Faith once delivered to the saints, nor will I abandon the sheep who elected me to protect them.

Pax et bonum in Christ Jesus our Lord,

+Bob Pittsburgh


http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/7316/

And from the diocese official website:
http://www.pgh.anglican.org/news/local/pbresponse110207

Sounds vaguely familiar...

Here is a response to + + Jefferts- Schori from TEC's Bishop of Central Florida: 

Central Florida Bishop Rips PB Schori Over Her Letter to Pittsburgh Bishop

The Presiding Bishop
815 Second Avenue
New York, NY 10017

Dear Katharine,

I have read with great sadness your letter to Bishop Bob Duncan of
Pittsburgh. And, since you have chosen to make your letter to him
public, I will make this one public, as well.

I have stood shoulder to shoulder with Bob in the efforts of the
Network to reverse the course of The Episcopal Church with regard to
recent decisions regarding human sexuality.

I part company with him in his decision to abandon the commitment we
made when we formed the Network, to work "within the Constitution and
Canons of The Episcopal Church."

But, Katharine, I cannot support your thinly veiled threat to resort
to litigation if the Diocese of Pittsburgh rescinds its accession to
the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church.

Dioceses voluntarily join (accede to) The Episcopal Church. And they
can voluntarily determine to separate from (withdraw their accession
from) The Episcopal Church.

During the Civil War, the Dioceses within the Confederate States
withdrew from The Episcopal Church without penalty. They were reunited
when that terrible war ended. Perhaps there will be a reunion of
presently seceding Dioceses at some point in our future, as well.

But just now, to threaten litigation, especially in the face of the
unanimous exhortation from the Primates in Dar es Salaam (an
exhortation you agreed to) to end such litigation, is deeply
troubling. I beg you to stand down.

This can only harm our relationships as fellow members of the Body of
Christ and our witness to the outside world. Warmest regards in our Lord,

The Right Rev. John W. Howe
Episcopal Bishop of Central Florida


This  comes from VirtueOnline
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal

Reference for this letter is:  http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/article.php?storyid=7000

Scott4

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 11:56:18 PM »
Irl,

Thanks for posting that.  What a powerful endorsement of Bishop Duncan's stand for truth.  May God continue to give such boldness and courage to His people throughout the world!

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2007, 11:57:21 PM »
So it's okay to belittle and slam bishops of the Church as long as we don't use the "h" word.  Good to know.  In another thread you praise pacificsts who are conscience bound.  Here is a bishop consceince bound on matters of faith and you slam him.  Lord have mercy.

Don't worry.  I'm sure that in a little while you'll be treated to an interesting "spelling out" so that you can understand how this really is consistent, but you're just too dull to get it right now.  All will be made better.  ;D

I can't wait...

may I also say I've missed your posts Scott

Me too.

And may I second Ian's concern about the slam on the good Bishop of the Diocese of Pittsburgh.  May our Lord sustain him and the priests and parishes of his Diocese as they maintain the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2007, 12:05:47 AM »

Me too.

And may I second Ian's concern about the slam on the good Bishop of the Diocese of Pittsburgh.  May our Lord sustain him and the priests and parishes of his Diocese as they maintain the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Dave, I watched the good bishop, as you call him, on late night TV for three+ years in PA. I came to an informed conclusion and I am not slamming him, just pointing out something which I observed.

John Dornheim

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2007, 12:14:49 AM »
It would seem to me this applies clearly,

6 Jesus said to him, "I am  the way, and  the truth, and  the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7  If you had known me, you would have  known my Father also. From now on you do know him and  have seen him." John 14,

1. Jesus is the way to the Father, not any particular doctrine, not an individual's faith, but Jesus -- and as God, Jesus can do what he wants to do, even grant the way to the Father to those who don't believe -- that is, unless you want to make "belief" the way to the Father rather than Jesus.

2. It is noteworthy that Jesus does not say that he is the way to God. I think that it is significant. For us to understand God as Father requires the presence of the Son. As Paul indicates in Romans 1, God is known to all people. God's power is known to all people. Even insurance companies recognize "acts of God". What they don't know without Jesus is the relationship of God to us as Father.

Quote
Hebrews 11:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Yet, in the story about the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham is seemingly pictured in heaven. Did he not then receive what was promised?

Thus, I do not get too upset by the presiding bishop's remarks. When I get to heaven, I will believe that all the people are there because of Jesus.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 12:17:16 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Scott4

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2007, 12:18:18 AM »
Dave, I watched the good bishop, as you call him, on late night TV for three+ years in PA. I came to an informed conclusion and I am not slamming him, just pointing out something which I observed.

John Dornheim

You're appealing to an "informed conclusion" based on "late night TV"?  How is that qualitatively different than "trust me when I crank on him -- if you were as informed as I (and already agreed with me), you'd crank on him just like I'm happy to crank on him"?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 12:33:04 AM by Sco tt Yak imow »

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2007, 12:37:35 AM »
Dave, I watched the good bishop, as you call him, on late night TV for three+ years in PA. I came to an informed conclusion and I am not slamming him, just pointing out something which I observed.

John Dornheim

You're appealing to an "informed conclusion" based on "late night TV"?  How is that qualitatively different than "trust me when I crank on him -- if you were as informed as I (and already agreed with me), you'd crank on him just like I'm happy to crank on him"?

Because I have no intention on "cranking on him" whatever that might mean.

John Dornheim