Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC

[pr dtp]

Matt writes:
And I have a question, Charles: When the last trump is sounded and both Spong and Robertson have to give account for their ministries and for those who, by their teaching, have been mislead into damnation, who do you think will be pulling the heavier load?

I respond:
What pastoral or spiritual purpose would it serve for me to speculate on that? I would fear that my own biases and prejudices would lead me to make judgments that are not mine to make. I have my hands and spiritual life rather full with other things rather than where those two men stand in the sight of God.

This one:
1 Corinthians 4:1-2 (ESV)
1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.

Spong is not trustworthy. Prior to pointing out the following verses about judgment in time, realize in Galatians and in Philippians, Paul thought it was time.l

[Charles_Austin]

I have said it before. Bishop Spong has never been a "threat" to any people or any part of the church where I have responsibilities. The bigger "threats" are indifference, biblical and theological illiteracy, cultural distortions of the Christian faith, the contemporary bias against religious commitment, parents who expect the church to make their children faithful, rigid parochialism and Sunday morning soccer.

[Maryland Brian]

The bigger "threats" are indifference, biblical and theological illiteracy, cultural distortions of the Christian faith, the contemporary bias against religious commitment, parents who expect the church to make their children faithful, rigid parochialism and Sunday morning soccer.

   ... and perhaps the "biggest" threat is irrelevant preaching and boring worship.

Md Brian

[LutherMan]

   ... and perhaps the "biggest" threat is irrelevant preaching and boring worship.

Md Brian

Yes.  Nothing bores me more than "contemporary service" in Lutheran Worship...

[MMH]

What pastoral or spiritual purpose would it serve for me to speculate on that? I would fear that my own biases and prejudices would lead me to make judgments that are not mine to make. I have my hands and spiritual life rather full with other things rather than where those two men stand in the sight of God.

Somebody who takes such obvious glee in misleading people is someone to take note of.  That is all I am saying.  Not to make him the theological boogey-man, but simply to note that he can and does cause damage. 

[John Dornheim]

What pastoral or spiritual purpose would it serve for me to speculate on that? I would fear that my own biases and prejudices would lead me to make judgments that are not mine to make. I have my hands and spiritual life rather full with other things rather than where those two men stand in the sight of God.

Somebody who takes such obvious glee in misleading people is someone to take note of.  That is all I am saying.  Not to make him the theological boogey-man, but simply to note that he can and does cause damage. 

As can anyone who has a pulpit.
John Dornheim

[Charles_Austin]

Maryland Brian writes (about "threats")
.. and perhaps the "biggest" threat is irrelevant preaching and boring worship

I comment:
Nope. The faith can survive even that; but it cannot survive without Christians who are biblically literate, committed disciples and able to carry the Gospel into the world.
For such folk, with the fire of the Gospel within them, there is no such thing as boring worship, even if it is an off-key version of Setting 1 in the LBW.

[Maryland Brian]

Nope. The faith can survive even that; but it cannot survive without Christians who are biblically literate, committed disciples and able to carry the Gospel into the world.
For such folk, with the fire of the Gospel within them, there is no such thing as boring worship, even if it is an off-key version of Setting 1 in the LBW.

 Well ... like Dr. Carl Mau, my first mentor and your former boss use to tell me all the time, "The church can survive incompetent church bureaucrats, but not bad preaching - that's why the church needs its very best people in its pulpits."  Over the years I've noticed that to be true.  Or in the words of Dirty Harry, "A man has got to know his limitations ..."

Md Brian

[peter_speckhard]

Nope. The faith can survive even that; but it cannot survive without Christians who are biblically literate, committed disciples and able to carry the Gospel into the world.
For such folk, with the fire of the Gospel within them, there is no such thing as boring worship, even if it is an off-key version of Setting 1 in the LBW.

 Well ... like Dr. Carl Mau, my first mentor and your former boss, use to tell me all the time, "The church can survive incompetent church bureaucrats, but not bad preaching - that's why the church needs its very best people in its pulpits."  Over the years I've noticed that to be true.  Or in the words of Dirty Harry, "A man has got to know his limitations ..."

Md Brian

If the church has its very best people in the pulpits, we're all doomed, unless by "best" you simply mean "called". Somehow Israel thrived militarily not with its best people as generals, but with doofuses like Gideon, merely because God chose him. Ditto David. Ditto Moses. Ditto St. Peter. God uses people despite their attributes, not because of their attributes. Rather than worry about who is good, we need to go where God puts us and see what happens.

[grabau14]

Nope. The faith can survive even that; but it cannot survive without Christians who are biblically literate, committed disciples and able to carry the Gospel into the world.
For such folk, with the fire of the Gospel within them, there is no such thing as boring worship, even if it is an off-key version of Setting 1 in the LBW.

 Well ... like Dr. Carl Mau, my first mentor and your former boss use to tell me all the time, "The church can survive incompetent church bureaucrats, but not bad preaching - that's why the church needs its very best people in its pulpits."  Over the years I've noticed that to be true.  Or in the words of Dirty Harry, "A man has got to know his limitations ..."

Md Brian

Have you ever listened to Roman Catholic preaching.  Alot of it is "boring" in that  they do not proclaim but rather tell a story about a saint and then try to relate it to today or they preach some sort of moralism.  But the church survives.   Why? because they have the sacraments.  Sasse writes that a church that loses the sacraments truly becomes "irrelavent"  So all the "Evangelical"  Mega-Churchs with their sweet musci are truly irrelavent because the Sacraments are not there. 

The Church can survive many things but not the loss of the sacraments because the Gospel will always be preached in those outward signs.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

[Maryland Brian]

Rather than worry about who is good, we need to go where God puts us and see what happens.

  It's my sense St. Paul, in at least two of his letters, argued something about gifts and how best to use them in the Body of Christ.  Perhaps the aging, declining mainline is evidence we have forgotten his insights. 

Md Brian

[Maryland Brian]

Have you ever listened to Roman Catholic preaching.  Alot of it is "boring" in that  they do not proclaim but rather tell a story about a saint and then try to relate it to today or they preach some sort of moralism.  But the church survives.   Why? because they have the sacraments. 

Define "survive."  In Latin America the Roman Catholic Church is rapidly being replaced by evangelical churches - a tradition that stresses preaching.  Like our own tradition, the RC church is all but dead in Europe.  I know many recovering Catholics who have nothing to do with that tradition.  I don't know their experience in the Global South.

Md Brian

[Dave_Poedel]

Have you ever listened to Roman Catholic preaching. Alot of it is "boring" in that they do not proclaim but rather tell a story about a saint and then try to relate it to today or they preach some sort of moralism. But the church survives. Why? because they have the sacraments.

Define "survive." In Latin America the Roman Catholic Church is rapidly being replaced by evangelical churches - a tradition that stresses preaching. Like our own tradition, the RC church is all but dead in Europe. I know many recovering Catholics who have nothing to do with that tradition. I don't know their experience in the Global South.

Md Brian

Brian:

I'm not sure what attendance is like in the RC parishes out there in Maryland, but my ego and belief that my preaching is an exposition of correct doctrine found in Holy Scripture leads me to lust for a congregation the size of the smallest Roman Catholic parish in Phoenix on a given Sunday. When Roman Catholics visit my small parish, they, after Mass come to me and say "I wish you could say Mass and preach in my parish" to which I respond "So do I".  Our average parish has 4,000-5,000 FAMILIES registered and each Mass has over 1,000 worshippers present.  Their sermons are an average of 6 minutes long and as Fr. Matthew describes above.

[John Dornheim]

Rome survives because it has fairly well perfected the guilt trip. Perhaps part of Rome's shortcomings in Latin America has more to do with its rejection of the Romeros of the church. In our growing Latino ministry, the overwhelming majority are Roman Catholics and while they might hold to a sacramental presence, many are unwilling to commune.
In the US, homiletics is almost an elective in many RC seminaries. Even when we had a significant amount of RC seminarians from St. Louis in the classroom, you could see that they were light years behind us.
John Dornheim

[grabau14]

Have you ever listened to Roman Catholic preaching. Alot of it is "boring" in that they do not proclaim but rather tell a story about a saint and then try to relate it to today or they preach some sort of moralism. But the church survives. Why? because they have the sacraments.

Define "survive." In Latin America the Roman Catholic Church is rapidly being replaced by evangelical churches - a tradition that stresses preaching. Like our own tradition, the RC church is all but dead in Europe. I know many recovering Catholics who have nothing to do with that tradition. I don't know their experience in the Global South.

Md Brian

Brian:

I'm not sure what attendance is like in the RC parishes out there in Maryland, but my ego and belief that my preaching is an exposition of correct doctrine found in Holy Scripture leads me to lust for a congregation the size of the smallest Roman Catholic parish in Phoenix on a given Sunday. When Roman Catholics visit my small parish, they, after Mass come to me and say "I wish you could say Mass and preach in my parish" to which I respond "So do I".  Our average parish has 4,000-5,000 FAMILIES registered and each Mass has over 1,000 worshippers present.  Their sermons are an average of 6 minutes long and as Fr. Matthew describes above.

Rev'd. Poedel,

You and I have had some very similar experiences with Roman Catholic parishoners.  They come to my church for funerals, First Communions, etc... and they say the same thing to me.  They hear the Gospel, like liturgy and they always say "you could teach our priest a thing or two".  But their parish attendence is 5 times the size of mine on a given Sunday.

But it warms my heart that the Latin Mass is making a strong comeback in the USA and it is being atteded by the ever elusive young people of 25-35 year olds.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP