Author Topic: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC  (Read 18507 times)

Richard Johnson

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2007, 10:21:58 PM »
Just wondering what role our confession of Christ's descent into hell plays in people's ruminations upon these matters.

BTW- this is one of the reasons I am ticked off at ELW and its complete ignoring of FC IX.

See "Give Hell a Chance," Forum Letter April 2006, also in "Selected Reprints" in these here precincts.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2007, 10:23:30 PM »

Complete ignoring of FC IX?  Do tell.

Erik Doughty
Minneapolis, MN


See "Give Hell a Chance," Forum Letter April 2006, also in "Selected Reprints" in these here precincts.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2007, 10:27:13 PM »


 1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

Well, the second part of this may be true. A lot of theological God-talk today is meaningless. But it's meaningless because it is propagated by people who think they are finding a "new way to speak of God" when what would give meaning would be to go back to talking about God in the ways that have worked pretty well for 2000 years or more.  8)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

revklak

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2007, 10:32:01 PM »


 1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

Well, the second part of this may be true. A lot of theological God-talk today is meaningless. But it's meaningless because it is propagated by people who think they are finding a "new way to speak of God" when what would give meaning would be to go back to talking about God in the ways that have worked pretty well for 2000 years or more.  8)

Or, as a wise seminary prof of mine said, yes there is "inside language" in the church.  But instead of eliminating it, denying it,  and speaking only in terms people "get" today, we should actually teach people what it means.  Who'd have thunk?

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2007, 10:33:08 PM »
Now Paul, that's the type of language that insults and doesn't further a dialogue  ;).  But on the other hand, when a Bishop denies the incarnation it's hard not to use that nasty a word. 

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

You can use all of the smiley happy faces thingies you want, it doesn't change the fact that boorish behavior is tolerated on this list beyond all reason and charity.

John Dornheim

Richard Johnson

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2007, 10:34:15 PM »

You can use all of the smiley happy faces thingies you want, it doesn't change the fact that boorish behavior is tolerated on this list beyond all reason and charity.


OK, fine, no more coercion. If you want to leave, fell free.  :o
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

revklak

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2007, 10:48:48 PM »
Thanks, Richard, for pointing back to the "Give Hell a Chance" thread.  I wasn't a member then, but I remember reading your piece in FL when it came out.  Loved it then, love it now.  And, ironically, in a bible study I'm teaching with the ladies at the congregation I serve we recently hit on that passage, and it was interesting the conversation caused when one lady pulled out her Concordia Study Bible and declared, "All those possible interpretations are wrong -- it says so right here!"  We came back to agree that there are many possible interpretations, but I couldn't remember where I'd seen it before.  Now I know!

John Dornheim

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2007, 11:24:49 PM »

You can use all of the smiley happy faces thingies you want, it doesn't change the fact that boorish behavior is tolerated on this list beyond all reason and charity.


OK, fine, no more coercion. If you want to leave, fell free.  :o

I don't believe that the thought has ever entered my mind.
John Dornheim

peter_speckhard

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2007, 11:27:09 PM »
What is boorish about calling Bp. Spong an apostate if that is what you truly think he is? Is there no such thing as an apostate? Because if Bp. Spong isn't one, who is?

grabau14

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2007, 11:40:09 PM »
The Writers Guild because there will be no episodes of 24 at all?  Seriously though, can such words like apostate or heretic ever be used?  Would our Fathers in the Faith who called Arius, Nestorius, etc... heretics not call Bishop Spong one as well? 

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

Mel Harris

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2007, 03:38:08 AM »

What is boorish about calling Bp. Spong an apostate if that is what you truly think he is? Is there no such thing as an apostate? Because if Bp. Spong isn't one, who is?


It seems to me that it is not what is said that some here seem to have a problem with, but how it is said.  Lutherans tend to be blunt and to the point.  Compare that to a Welshman's response to Bishop Spong's argument that is posted farther above in this thread.  He started out saying that he could understand what Bishop Spong was attempting to do; slowly and carefully went on to point out that he had failed at it miserably; and ended up saying that he cannot understand why Bishop Spong even pretends to still be a Christian or still has anything to do with the church.  It only took him 2,514 words to say this.  I have not seen anyone here complain about that response.  So it appears that it is not what you say, but how you say it that determines whether or not your response is "boorish".

 ;)     Mel Harris

ptmccain

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2007, 08:03:36 AM »
Spong is apostate. This is most certainly true.


A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.


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Charles_Austin

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2007, 08:45:30 AM »
Bishop Spong serves a purpose, though not the one he intends. He stands as the bugaboo for all those fearful of "newness" or "liberalism" or whatever, so they can point and take shots and feel righteous and crusader-like. Meanwhile, discussion of the meaning of faith and doctrine for today goes on elsewhere and on quite a different tack.

MMH

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2007, 09:27:46 AM »
Bishop Spong serves a purpose, though not the one he intends. He stands as the bugaboo for all those fearful of "newness" or "liberalism" or whatever, so they can point and take shots and feel righteous and crusader-like. Meanwhile, discussion of the meaning of faith and doctrine for today goes on elsewhere and on quite a different tack.

In much the same way Robertson et. al provide a target for the Religious Left who are scared about the coming Theocracy.  If I have to attend one more event where some leftist cleric shares fears about that, I am going to scream.

And I have a question, Charles: When the last trump is sounded and both Spong and Robertson have to give account for their ministries and for those who, by their teaching, have been mislead into damnation, who do you think will be pulling the heavier load?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2007, 09:41:01 AM »
Matt writes:
And I have a question, Charles: When the last trump is sounded and both Spong and Robertson have to give account for their ministries and for those who, by their teaching, have been mislead into damnation, who do you think will be pulling the heavier load?

I respond:
What pastoral or spiritual purpose would it serve for me to speculate on that? I would fear that my own biases and prejudices would lead me to make judgments that are not mine to make. I have my hands and spiritual life rather full with other things rather than where those two men stand in the sight of God.