Quite a discussion going on at LQ called "Unionism at Fort Wayne Seminary?"

[Dave Benke]

Matthew,

You're right on in explicating that the problem of high-handedness is not limited to the pastoral office, nor is nit-picky tempest-in-a-teapotting (I wrote a hymn with that title but it failed to make the LSB cut).  I'm thinking the example you mentioned of Mary as type of the Church comes from a midwestern protestantized precinct.  Now, if you made the perpetual virginity a divider of your congregation or let's say refused to commune with those who differed with you at the Winkel, then you would be treading over the line.  My first instinct when I'm invited in to these situations is to ask the parishioners, "Are you sure you're listening to what he's saying?"

Anyway, the TTMBO differential was that of the signatory nature of a theological document stating this WAS the correct theological position of the Church, absent any authorization, and pre-emptive to dialog with the wider denomination.  The others you mention were not signatory in that way.  But from what Ben says it's a dead horse we're beating anyway.  Have I ever told you about my wedding on horseback?  My pony was Abrahamic, in the biblical sense of "as good as dead." 

Dave Benke

[LutherMan]

This thread is heating up again over at LutherQuest.  They also have more than one thread titled "Questions for President Benke" which I haven't looked at yet...
Pres. Benke, do you post at LutherQuest??  I don't think I have ever seen you there in all my years of lurking.

[Dave Benke]

Nope.  No posting on Lutherquest. 

Dave Benke

[grabau14]

I had a good laugh when the folks over at Lutherquest.  They honestly believe that CTS is teaching Eastern Orthodox theology and polity.  For the love of God.  I took Eastern and Latin Fathers with Dr. Weinrich.  At no time did Dr. Weinrich teach Eastern Orthodox polity, he taught the Fathers and what they had to say.  If that moved some of my classmates to leave later on than so be it.  But I believe it had more to do with the State of Missouri as more Evangelical than Catholic for some of them.  For others it is Bishops.  And for a few they have genuinely become Eastern in their thought

But these are the same folks who believe that the CTS journal "For the Life of the World" is named after Alexander Schmemann fine book instead of John 6:51/Creed.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither   SSP

[pr dtp]

I had a good laugh when the folks over at Lutherquest.  They honestly believe that CTS is teaching Eastern Orthodox theology and polity.  For the love of God.  I took Eastern and Latin Fathers with Dr. Weinrich.  At no time did Dr. Weinrich teach Eastern Orthodox polity, he taught the Fathers and what they had to say.  If that moved some of my classmates to leave later on than so be it.  But I believe it had more to do with the State of Missouri as more Evangelical than Catholic for some of them.  For others it is Bishops.  And for a few they have genuinely become Eastern in their thought

But these are the same folks who believe that the CTS journal "For the Life of the World" is named after Alexander Schmemann fine book instead of John 6:51/Creed.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither   SSP

Matt,

I have a few friends (both LCMS and WELS) that post on LQ, the biggest issue there, is here from what i have seen.

It is the inconsistency that is found in judging one man's standard by a rule, then nulifying that rule for friends and/or family.   It is found in tolerating the sin amongst us, but priding ourselves in preaching law to others.  It is found in calling oneself Lutheran, but refusing to acknowledge the confessions, or Missourian when Walther talks of delegating the office's responsibilities.

Don't mock these men too quickly, even Jesus told the people to listen to the pharisees words, if not follow their actions. And the men over there are more sincere and faithful than pharisees.


Pray for them, (even as I encourage them to pray for those they mock)

[grabau14]

"Justified and Sinner" , I don't mock them, I just don't understand where they get the info that Fort Wayne is teaching EO theology and practice.  I never heard one prof encourage or out right teach EO theology.  I've been to their houses, drank their booze and nope no EO teaching going on.  Larry Rast and John Pless, Good Lutheran theologians, not EO.  Art Just, nope not EO.  Dean Wenthe, again not EO.  So, until they can concretely prove that something is afoul at CTS, they should just stop their "lies."

Also, why should the Seminary or Bishop Benke or any DP submit to some silly "Walther purity test" that New Haven and Lutherquest concoct?  I also find it interesting that the man behind Lutherquest has left the LCMS, yet he consistently writes articles about how bad the LCMS is.

I tried to get a account on their board and was denied.  Gave my yahoo and my hotmail e-mails and were not accepted.  Maybe I'm not in e-mail fellowship? 

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

[ghp]

Nope.  No posting on Lutherquest. 

Dave Benke

Are the responses that Rev. Louderback posts from you (as they are purported to be)? Or is he engaging in some sort of horribly misguided ruse?

While I was surprised to see it over there, I took it to be an attempt to dialog. A surprising but well-intentioned and very interesting attempt. And it read like something you would write.

Curious...

[Dave Benke]

Sorry, Glen, for the misdirection; Mark Louderback asked me if I'd interact with the Lutherquesters under the format whereby I don't post, he does.  So I'm not the poster, although the post is written by me.  I'm the poster's child, so to speak.  Anyway, the attempt is actually to do some dialog in that way.

Dave Benke

[ghp]

Sorry, Glen, for the misdirection; Mark Louderback asked me if I'd interact with the Lutherquesters under the format whereby I don't post, he does.  So I'm not the poster, although the post is written by me.  I'm the poster's child, so to speak.  Anyway, the attempt is actually to do some dialog in that way.

Dave Benke

I figured as much, Dr. Benke, but it's best to get these things clearly stated, no? Thanks for the update.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of this attempt to dialog. Ideally, it'll be thoughtful in execution and beneficial in result. Even if disagreement persists, if the issues are thoughtfully & respectfully engaged (by the majority of participants - 'cause even here on ALPB it's not always 100%    ), it won't be a bad thing.

[pr dtp]

"Justified and Sinner" , I don't mock them, I just don't understand where they get the info that Fort Wayne is teaching EO theology and practice.  I never heard one prof encourage or out right teach EO theology.  I've been to their houses, drank their booze and nope no EO teaching going on.  Larry Rast and John Pless, Good Lutheran theologians, not EO.  Art Just, nope not EO.  Dean Wenthe, again not EO.  So, until they can concretely prove that something is afoul at CTS, they should just stop their "lies."

Also, why should the Seminary or Bishop Benke or any DP submit to some silly "Walther purity test" that New Haven and Lutherquest concoct?  I also find it interesting that the man behind Lutherquest has left the LCMS, yet he consistently writes articles about how bad the LCMS is.

I tried to get a account on their board and was denied.  Gave my yahoo and my hotmail e-mails and were not accepted.  Maybe I'm not in e-mail fellowship? 

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

Matthew,

First off, the charge was that they tolerated and didn't correct seminarians work, that appeared in a student produced paper.  I do find it funny that the blame was put at Dean Wenthe's feet, and at our SP's by extrapolation. I can't really see our SP in full regalia of the East, nor dealing with the limitations that system of polity puts towards evangelism.  ( Personally, if Benedict got rid of the edicts of Trent, and the silly celibacy rule....the conservative fransiscan groups are more appealing thant he east!)  But again, the question is - why isn't someone correcting these kids?  (or perhaps they are ?)

So the question appears - why is it Fort Wayne guys go East, as opposed to West? Is there a tie between the love of liturgy?  Perhaps!  What about the  role of herr pastor, in a culture that doesn't recognzie it?  The East also seems a great option.

A bigger question - why are we losing pastors and theologians in general - to the east (Pelikan comes to mind) and to the west (R Neuhaus)  Having read their works, it seems that the things that drew me from my non-denom world to the LC-MS are never mentioned.  Yet they are so intrinsic to my ministry.  Some may say it is because of internal struggle - but ours is nothing compared to the SBC's fights or those in the UMC, (never mind the conflicts among the catholic denoms.... invite a Jesuit priest, a Benedictine monk, a Maronite and a Fransiscan over for dinner some time!)

My point still stands, a good majority over there you are in fellowship with, right? Others, given a chance to talk - you would find your theology compatible to theirs.  Pray for them, a lot.

God bless,
J&S

[John_Hannah]

So the question appears - why is it Fort Wayne guys go East, as opposed to West?

I have also wondered about that. I suspect it is because of a deep seated prejudice, common in American politics especially the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. We call it anti-Catholicism, which of course means anti-Roman Catholicism. Were I to leave if the LCMS goes off the deep end into non-confessional, super-confessional, Fundamentalist, and sub-confessional stuff (not likely actually) I'd go West.

Peace, JOHN HANNAH, STS

[revjagow]

Pray for them, (even as I encourage them to pray for those they mock)

That the word "mock" would be used here in regards to LutherQuest is telling. 

I've been avoiding a peek just because of the Dave Benke posts.  It opens up way too many wounds, and I would rather move forward in the LCMS with people who will actually speak of Dave and like-minded folk (like me) and dialog with us as if we were orthodox LCMS pastors who care very much about correct doctrine in the church.