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Messages - Steverem

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46
Your Turn / Re: Planned Parenthood
« on: August 18, 2015, 11:28:19 AM »
Or, the mental and emotional health when parents know that their baby will live only a few hours after birth. To force all mothers/parents to suffer continued emotional trauma when it could be reduced seems as cruel as letting the Japanese continue to kill hundreds of Americans by sparing the 100,000's citizens in that country.

Try conservative estimates of 1 million Americans killed and woundedin a 1945-46 invasion of Japan. But, whether hundreds or one million, I'm trying to figure out the emotional benefit of having your baby killed now rather than having your baby live, albeit a few hours after birth and how the emotional trauma of the latter is as cruel as the deaths of hundreds or more of American soldiers..   :o


I cannot speak for anyone who has been in that situation, because I haven't. Have you? What makes you an expert on how a woman's emotional health after being raped or watching her infant die? What right do you have to tell her what she must do?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to do with regard to their own emotional health.  We all have a right to have a say in what people do with the physical health of others.  So let's please stop pretending the unborn child here is some non-factor that is irrelevant to the discussion.


Until that unborn child can live separated from its mother, it is not a separate entity. As far as I know, we cannot take an unwanted blastocyst out of the mother and put it into a test tube or even another woman and have it grow into a fetus then a newborn.

So ... if we can't play God with it, it doesn't exist?

47
Your Turn / Re: Planned Parenthood
« on: August 13, 2015, 06:14:32 PM »
 
I would also say that planned parenthood is doing a lot of public good, in the same way the Catholic Church is doing a lot of good. 


... and Mussolini made the trains run on time.  Sometimes, the evil being perpetrated renders all other benefits moot. 

48
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 12, 2015, 07:04:12 PM »
Using the word socialism to describe the early Christian movement is not off base.  Does that mean they were Socialists?  No, they followers of Jesus aka Christians.

The difference is that government socialism is enforced by guns and jail.


Uh, Acts 5 indicates that the Christian rules were enforced by death. Ananias and Sapphira lied to the church about their finances and they both died suddenly and mysteriously. You don't think that this story was told over and over again as a warning against lying to the church? Luke tells it right after the good example of Barnabas selling a field and placing all the proceeds under the authority of the apostles.

Uh, what's your point?


sometimes governments can be less harsh than God.

Of course, it helps that God is, you know, perfectly just, while human governments are ... less so.

49
Your Turn / Re: A Frivolous Thread: Football (v. 2.0)
« on: August 12, 2015, 05:33:15 PM »
I do enjoy a good match of handegg.

In truth, I appreciate American Football largely because of the strategy involved, as well as the fact that it's possible for lower seeded teams to become champions in a way that other popular sports don't have. 

I also enjoyed this (SFW)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXacL0Uny0

I, for one, am happy that football season is here.  There's nothing like watching Messi weave his way through flat-footed defenders; precise finishing by the likes of Kane, Costa, and Ibrahimovic; and brilliant saves by Courtois, Cech, and Neuer.  Can't wait to see legendary of venues like Stamford Bridge, Anfield, Camp Nou, and White Hart Lane once again filled with passionate (and hopefully not violent) fans.

We are talking about the same football, right? 

50
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 10, 2015, 12:40:57 PM »

War is always evil.  Unless they fully comply with the principles of just war, wars also are unnecessary.  That there may be specific instances in which war might be necessary, there is no excuse to eschew the principles of just war.  Yet, as a nation, we have done that throughout our history.


So, when "Joshua fit the battle at Jericho," he was engaging in an evil and unnecessary war?  Don't mean to harp, but if Joshua was being obedient to God, even though the fight failed to live up to modern ad bellum and in bello standards, I'd have a hard time calling it "evil."  A by-product of human sinfulness, perhaps, as contrasted to God's design in the garden, but not in-and-of-itself evil.

51
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 10, 2015, 11:01:12 AM »
Certainly, you can point out that wars directly mandated by God are rare, if not nonexistent, today, but the fact remains that those wars were God's chosen implement.

I'd suggest that, too often we operate on the assumption that the wars we choose to engage (lie ourselves into??) are mandated by God.  E.g. we invaded Iraq to conquer the "evil doers".

Of course.  That said, is war "always evil" and unnecessary?

52
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 10, 2015, 10:56:14 AM »

And in some of those battles, the civilians - men, women, and children were killed by Israelites.


Yep.  And they were also commanded to do so by God.  So, were those wars evil and/or unnecessary?


53
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 10, 2015, 10:13:18 AM »

War is always evil.  It might be true that war is unavoidable because war is engaged by sinful people.  That doesn't make it necessary!


I'm working my way through the Old Testament with my kids for bedtime devotion, and we're just finishing the conquest of Canaan.  Were those battles evil/unnecessary?  Certainly, you can point out that wars directly mandated by God are rare, if not nonexistent, today, but the fact remains that those wars were God's chosen implement.  Hard to call something God commands inherently and always evil.  Perhaps overwhelmingly so, but I think you'd have to allow that something that could be defined as a "good war" could exist, at least in the abstract.  (Also, while I am a proponent of just war principles, I think it would be very hard to view those OT wars as complying to the established guidelines.  Proportionality in bello  doesn't appear to be a strong suit among the Israelites.  In those cases, they were just because God commanded them.)

54
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 07, 2015, 03:20:40 PM »

What makes that life sacred? Is the zygote of a human more sacred than the zygote of a calf or the fertilized egg that a chicken lays?


I know we all have our "sacred cows," but Brian just takes that to a ridiculous extreme here.

(By the way, the answer is "yes.")

55
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 05, 2015, 03:41:13 PM »
So are we to believe now that the supposedly " pro-life" crowd will come out for greater gun control and oppose the killing of innocent animals?

Charles- Why the insistence on consistently- using the phrase, supposedly "pro-life"?

Also- a call for a reduction in gun violence, which any number of people are for, even anti-choice zealots, is NOT the same thing as stricter gun control.

And how do you define "innocent animals?" Are you suggesting a vegan diet?

I thought that the "pro-life crowd" known as the Catholic Church had done just that.  I thought the Catholic Church favored more gun control and that the current Pope had just written and encyclical that spoke strongly about the need to care for the non-human part of Creation. 

The Catholic Church at least makes an attempt to transcend the right/left divide.   Depending on the topic, the Catholic Church will take positions on the left and right side of that divide.  The ELCA, as if constrained by and invisible leash, never strays beyond the boundaries of the political left.

And the typical Roman Catholic encyclical on such matters contains exhaustive references to Scripture and Catholic teaching, offering a thorough yet nuanced perspective on the issues at hand, and arriving at a clearly defined position.  The typical ELCA social statement - not so much.

56
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 05, 2015, 12:33:14 PM »
I've always felt that at its root, the debate around abortion is more a matter of biology than theology.  The ultimate question, "Is it life?" is one that can and should be looked at apart from one's religious beliefs.  Of course, once it is determined it is life (and, honestly, I don't think that's an argument that the "pro-choice" side can win), the religious/theological element kicks in, as we ask what value that life has, and how we respond to it.

Public opinion is shifting toward pro-life. It will change (but probably not this year). There is a reason folks like those a Planned Parenthood are fearful.

Peace, JOHN

Yep.  Up until now, the PP folks have been able to speak in cliches, relying on friendly media to parrot their talking points without reflection.  If the videos have done nothing else, they have challenged the conventional wisdom and assertions about what Planned Parenthood does, and is forcing PP to make a defense for their practices, which they are proving wholly incapable of doing.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

57
Your Turn / Re: Those "old" hymns
« on: August 05, 2015, 11:42:35 AM »
Richard, I have old gospel hymns on my iPod and play them on my walk. But I also have a long list of German drinking songs. And marches by John Philip Sousa.

A (near) pacifist with a penchant for Sousa marches?  You are an enigma, Pastor Austin.

58
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 05, 2015, 11:37:30 AM »
I've always felt that at its root, the debate around abortion is more a matter of biology than theology.  The ultimate question, "Is it life?" is one that can and should be looked at apart from one's religious beliefs.  Of course, once it is determined it is life (and, honestly, I don't think that's an argument that the "pro-choice" side can win), the religious/theological element kicks in, as we ask what value that life has, and how we respond to it.

59
Your Turn / Re: Lump of cells vs human being
« on: August 04, 2015, 04:45:15 PM »
No "moral qualms"?  That is a lie.
I have all kinds of moral qualms concerning abortion. Dozens and dozens of them.  But I do not believe they will be solved by legislating against all abortions. First of all, that'll never happen. So if we are opposed to abortion, we have to find other ways to stop the number of abortions.  Better advice concering and access to contraception is one way.  Better teaching in our churches is another way.
 But you may not say that I, or people like me, have no moral qualms about abortion. That is overstated rhetoric. And that is a lie.

I have all kinds of moral qualms concerning abortion slavery. Dozens and dozens of them.  But I do not believe they will be solved by legislating against all abortions instances of slavery. First of all, that'll never happen. So if we are opposed to abortion slavery, we have to find other ways to stop the number of abortions reduce the number of slaves.
 
- Charles, circa. 1850

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

60
Your Turn / Re: "Less Room in the LCMS Brotherhood"
« on: August 04, 2015, 04:30:45 PM »

I know what you say, and I also know what you do. Actions speak louder than words.


So, to look at another issue currently being debated on this board, wouldn't the fact that the ELCA health plan allows for elective abortions for any reason at virtually any time in the pregnancy, and that no visible efforts have been made by the church to make abortions "safe, legal, and rare" trump any kind of official statement that purports to be in any way "pro-life"?  Actions speaking louder and such ...


If we knew how many women on the ELCA plan have chosen elective abortions in contrast to those who have followed the statement for making responsible moral choices, then we might say that our actions speak louder than our words. We don't have the information to know what our actions are, except that the choice is up to the woman - not Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

With all due respect, pastor, you're shoveling enough excrement to fertilize Montana.

This is not about how people may or may not respond to what you do.  If it were, then you wouldn't be able to make the claim that the LCMS is viewed as seeing those outside of full communion are "outside God's saving grace" without a full statistical breakdown whether that was true, as opposed to the few anecdotal examples you like to trot out from time to time.  If you are to allow that the "action" of closed communion speaks more of what the LCMS believes about those with whom it is not in fellowship than actual statements to that fact, then you must also allow that the fact that the ELCA is doing nothing to render abortions "rare" speaks more accurately to that church body's actual position than does its social statement on the same.  You can't play both sides of that fence.

I'm beginning to think that Koine Greek is your native tongue.  It's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for your exhaustive understanding of every little nuance in biblical text, paired with your failure to understand basic concepts in English.  I know that others here have suggested that we're speaking different languages, but I didn't stop to think that might actually be literally true.

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