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Messages - peter_speckhard

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31
Take Peter’s  comment just upstream over to that other discussion just locked down and you’ll be able to open up that discussion again.
Fixed a few typos (I was using my phone while sitting around after my Covid shot and I never pay close enough to attention to how it autofills words or deletes partial words). But what is it about my previous post you find political or even controversial?

32
Your Turn / Re: Coronavirus news
« on: January 19, 2021, 09:01:16 PM »
Just got my first dose of the Pfizer vaccine. Man, talk about a well-oiled machine. They said come early to register and do insurance and all that, so I left my house around 7:10 for a 7:40 appointment and was back home by 7:45. (The hospital is only about a mile away, but you had to park in the garage and take a skywalk to the correct door, but that was all explained in advance.) They had volunteers at every doorway, multiple tables for every stage of sign-in, and a steady flow of people, but no wait times anywhere. The only delay was the 15 minutes of sitting around afterward in case you had a reaction.

     

33
I don’t see the problem with the term “Biblical worldview.” The Bible tells us God’s story of dealing with Mankind. Someone with a Biblical worldview lives conceptually within that story. That doesn’t mean all such people agree on everything, but they all agree they are creatures of a Creator to Whom they are accountable. They all believe that Creation per se is good but that the world is fallen. They agree that history has a telos, that is, it is not random, nor is it without beginning or end. Materialists have an unBiblical worldview, as do Buddhists and Hindus.

34
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 19, 2021, 07:49:04 PM »
I thought a decision had been made to avoid all of these political discussions unless there was some sort of theological issue.  :-\
True. I’ll lock the thread.

35
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 19, 2021, 06:45:04 PM »
We are going to have to fact check that speech, Peter, before we can decide what we think about it. Four years of experience suggests that it is packed with a lot of misstatements and outright lies.
And I noticed that your post comes from what appears to be a Trumpist website.

The video of the speech is at the bottom of the article.
But the video was taken with Trumpist cameras. You can’t be too careful.

36
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 19, 2021, 06:43:57 PM »
This morning when I hopped on to ALPB I saw Pastor Engebretson's comments re reconciliation and unity.  I posted the Lincoln info as a step towards healing and reconciliation.  If we can agree on some basics, then we might be able to move forward.  If we  can agree that the rioters and Trump based their words and actions on a lie, then the path towards healing, reconciliation, and unity can begin.  The lie about the election is the barrier.  The lie  denies what Lincoln said in 1838 and which I asserted is still relevant today.   Admit  the lie.
Nobody here has said a word of support for rioters. I’ve said multiple times they should be prosecuted, like all rioters and looters. This is another example of the real battle being control of the narrative. Your guy won. He will be inaugurated. But that isn’t enough for you. You need to feel vindicated in how people tell the story of how you have behaved these past four years. After the attitude you displayed toward the previous administration, what makes you think unity with you is such a tempting offer? Really, you’ll let me join with the pussy-hat wearing, collusion hoax believing, Walmart looting, Seattle occupying resistance in a new, healed nation now that leftists are in power? Hard pass. We’ll continue be on opposite sides of a cultural divide regardless of what Trump or any of his supporters say or do now that he is leaving office. Biden will be president. I’m not going to stoop to the level of people who’ve been in “Not my president,” or “Resist,” mode these last few years. They aren’t worth bothering with. Biden will be president. He will likely be a bad president, but what can you do? I’ll vote against him next time, and in the meantime live as a Christian under bad political leadership. Nothing new about that.

38
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 19, 2021, 12:18:00 PM »
Read on, Pastor Speckhard, read all of Lincoln on this subject.  In his summation, Abraham Lincoln said:  "Passion has helped us; but can do no more.  It will in future be our enemy.  Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all  the materials for our future support and defence.  Let those materials be moulded into general intelligence, sound morality and in particular a reverence for the constitution and laws..."   The problem is that the mob which entered the Capitol wanted to overthrow the due process of the laws of the land.  The mob action was based on a lie, that the election of Joe Biden was invalid.  I think that the repudiation of the lie would be a necessary first step which would then lead on to unity.
Yes, I've read Lincoln. And I agree with him on this for the most part. I wish you did, too, and not just when people you hate are misbehaving.

It should be noted that Lincoln flagrantly disregarded the constitution and his government refused to seat electors he didn't think had been validly elected, so there is a lot more to the story than just everyone agreeing with his words.   

   

39
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 19, 2021, 11:00:58 AM »
Another important read on the way to healing would be to study Abraham Lincoln's "Address to the The Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois" found in the Library of America Vol. I. Lincoln's Speeches and Writings.

"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger?   By what means shall we fortify against it?  Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!  All the names of Europe, Asia combined with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected?  I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us.  It cannot come from abroad.  If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.  As a nation of free men, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

The wisdom o Lincoln's remarks are valid today.  A cartoon in The Washington Post shows  US troops stationed inside the Capitol.  One soldier is on the phone and says:  "Well, Mom, here I am defending the nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
Of course, our nation exists on the twin assumptions that the government itself can become the threat to the populace rather than vice-versa, and that there can come a time in the course of human events...etc. We may be invincible to foreigners, but we are not exempt from the temptations common to man, especially not in seat of power. The people who rallied to Trump were not the elite, established insiders, but they were a large swath of the populace. I would not have condoned breaching the Capitol even for symbolic reasons, but I would advice treading lightly with the assumptions about who was justified in doing what at a time of great cultural division.   

40
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 18, 2021, 06:12:31 PM »
OK this is kind of geeky.  But in my second year of prep school in Milwaukee, we were taught English by a biology professor who really only knew from taxonomic organization - so we spent the entire term diagramming sentences.  Which is very cool, actually, in understanding how words get put together.  Useful for preachers.  I like writing in long sentences with all kinds of meandering.  But preaching is for short sentences.  Subject/object/verb.  Boom, boom, boom.  Unless you're telling a story in the sermon, in which case all bets are off.

This takes us to the Pledge of Allegiance, which is a diagrammer's late nite challenge.  Check this out:  http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams2/pledge.htm.

The pledge is to the flag and to that for which it stands - the republic.  What is the republic? 
One nation
Under God
Indivisible
With (for all) liberty and justice. 

I had only assumed that last component.  We're not saying justice is for all, but not liberty, are we?  So the diagram has to put "for all" in front of liberty and justice.  Unless some ne'er do well thinks that our republic stands for justice for all, but not liberty for all.

Dave Benke
Some tangentially related lore. RJN’s mother, my grandmother, who taught me to play scrabble for blood, considered correct grammar to be as indispensable as liberty and justice. One time when my mom called her in tears to commiserate about a genuinely terrible time my rebellious brother was going through in his late teens, Grandma Neuhaus responded, “It’s because he never learned to diagram sentences.”

41
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 18, 2021, 09:28:45 AM »
That is, Peter, the classic distinction without a difference.
"One nation, under God" still requires a thought as to which God and whose God.
Otherwise, we would say "one nation, under (we think) some God somewhere (if there is a God), indivisible, with liberty and..."
It is not a distinction without a difference. Unlike Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, we insist our state is at best penultimate.


For about 1/2 of the 129 years since the Pledge of Allegiance was created, "under God," was not part of it. It was added in 1954 to show that America was not like atheistic communist Russia.


The three different versions are listed below.


Original: 1892 Francis Bellamy
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
1923
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
1954
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
That’s because it went without saying among people whose culture was formed by Christendom that every nation and government is under God. Only when confronted by overt denial of it by the Soviets, Nazis, and in a different way Imperial Japan did it suddenly become necessary to state the obvious.

42
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 17, 2021, 09:22:33 PM »
It’s amazing how the non-Lutheran churches are always inspiration for us to learn from until they stop parroting progressives. Then they’re dangerous heretics. And we are always too strict about policing doctrine unless it is other conservative churches. Then we’re too lax in putting up with them.

43
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 17, 2021, 06:17:23 PM »
We don't have a version of God. We have God. When we recite the pledge, He is the God we're talking about. When those who are perishing recite the pledge, it may be the Flying Spaghetti Monster they have in mind for all I know. That matters is that they are not claiming the highest place for the constitution, the elected government, or the general existence of the United States.

This distinction matters. Our rights are not conferred by the constitution or government. They are recognized by the constitution and government as coming from a higher power that the Constitution and government have no authority to contradict. 

44
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 17, 2021, 02:26:54 PM »
That is, Peter, the classic distinction without a difference.
"One nation, under God" still requires a thought as to which God and whose God.
Otherwise, we would say "one nation, under (we think) some God somewhere (if there is a God), indivisible, with liberty and..."
It is not a distinction without a difference. Unlike Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, we insist our state is at best penultimate.

45
Your Turn / Re: The Church's Response to Government and Governing
« on: January 17, 2021, 12:43:00 PM »
I think it is an important point to insist that “under God” is a description of the United States, not God. The key is that we acknowledge that our nation can never be our highest priority. It is a great nation, but cannot bear up under the burden of being deified, nor can it make sense as understood in a completely materialistic, atheistic framework.

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