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Messages - John_Hannah

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16
Your Turn / Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« on: January 08, 2021, 12:47:31 PM »
When one even mentions Wednesday's sedition one should expect that it will elicit strong reactions, many of which will inevitably bring in Trump.

Peace, JOHN
Sedition is a specific crime, that of revolting or inciting revolt against the government. While those who participated in the riot at the Capitol Building Wednesday broke a number of laws, it is not clear that they were trying to overthrow the government. Neither is it at all clear that Trump, as infelicitous and perhaps reckless as his words were, actually advocated anything more than protest at the Capitol Building. It is not clear that his words or actions Wednesday constituted sedition. Simply throwing around the charge of sedition as though it were a fact that sedition was involved does not bring clarity to discussions.

You might be right. Yet, the Senate and the House in a joint session is our government. Rioters sitting triumphantly in the chair of the President of the Senate and at the desk of the Speaker of the House give reason for some regard this event at least as attempted sedition. Fortunately it was not permanent.

Peace, JOHN

17
Your Turn / Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« on: January 08, 2021, 11:09:20 AM »
Why is the president being discussed in a thread about civil unrest and Christian witness in the first place?

Go to the initial post for an answer:

"It was gratifying to see the president and every conservative commentator (at least online that I saw) condemning the violence at the Capitol yesterday, and doing so immediately and in no uncertain terms. No "mostly peaceful" apologies for it (again, at least that I saw-- there always will be some outliers in the cyber-world, but of the mainstream voices I'm familiar with in politics, there was unanimity that the riots were wrong) nor calls for law enforcement to stand down, nor accusations of a murder about the unarmed protester who was shot and killed."
For heaven's sake, John, the point was that no leader or commentator on either political side was speaking in favor of the violence. There was swift bipartisan agreement that the violence and lawbreaking was wrong. Anyone can denounce the violence of the "other side" but that doesn't mean much. In this case, both sides of the culture/political wars broadly agreed that the violence was not justified. This was a stark contrast to the violence over the summer, which saw many politicians and commentators condemning it but also many justifying it.  By beginning with a point of agreement, we could (I hoped) discuss the topic, which is Christian witness to civil unrest. Over the summer the issue was clouded by which side of the cultural/political divide you were on. With this civil unrest, we're all on the same side concerning the violence while remaining in disagreement on politics, culture wars, etc. Thus, we can discuss the Christian witness to unrest in a more focused way. I mentioned the president in passing simply to establish the overall point about this difference between this violence and the violence over the summer. Among rational people the mere mention of the president as part of a larger, innocuous, and uncontroverted point (unless you can find some example to the contrary) does not trigger a tirade. Other people have brought interesting distinctions into the discussion, such as how the legitimacy of the authority is a different question than the fairness/justice of the rule. That's the sort of thing the thread is for.

When one even mentions Wednesday's sedition one should expect that it will elicit strong reactions, many of which will inevitably bring in Trump.

Peace, JOHN

18
Your Turn / Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« on: January 08, 2021, 08:59:58 AM »
Why is the president being discussed in a thread about civil unrest and Christian witness in the first place?

Go to the initial post for an answer:

"It was gratifying to see the president and every conservative commentator (at least online that I saw) condemning the violence at the Capitol yesterday, and doing so immediately and in no uncertain terms. No "mostly peaceful" apologies for it (again, at least that I saw-- there always will be some outliers in the cyber-world, but of the mainstream voices I'm familiar with in politics, there was unanimity that the riots were wrong) nor calls for law enforcement to stand down, nor accusations of a murder about the unarmed protester who was shot and killed."

19
Your Turn / Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
« on: January 08, 2021, 06:27:56 AM »
The ALPB publishes Prayers of the People: Petitionary Prayers Guided by the Texts for the Day by Richard Bansemer. There is a prayer for every Sunday in the 3 Year Cycle.

https://alpb.org/books/prayers-of-the-people-petitionary-prayers-guided-by-the-texts-for-the-day/

20
Your Turn / Re: Civil unrest and Christian witness
« on: January 07, 2021, 06:01:40 PM »
Dave, we met via zoom in December to discuss the future of the forum. One thing we agreed upon was that it was too political and insufficiently theological, too partisan and rancorous. Where do you see that spirit we were/are trying to banish introduced into this thread? How does Charlesís post align with the goals for the forum we talked about? I havenít seen the other posters descend to that level; there has been interesting discussion.

PETER,

You introduced the subject. Charles merely elaborated on reasons a Christian might object in this case. That he does not like anything about Trump is no sin any more than the many here who seem to feel the way about both Clintons, Obama, Harris, and maybe even Biden.

Peace, JOHN

21
Your Turn / St. Peter's, Manhattan
« on: January 05, 2021, 05:23:05 PM »
Many here know of St. Peter's in Midtown Manhattan (Lexington and 53rd). Last night it suffered serious water damage from a ruptured water main. The sanctuary and most of the educational rooms are below street level so it was extensive, probably in the millions of dollars. John Damm served as pastor for many years.

22
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 05, 2021, 11:16:53 AM »
I submit the decline began with the birth of the 1961 "the State of the Church" conference in Milwaukee, WI.  It had nothing to do with "our German ghetto."  The gathering was designed to return the LCMS to the Confessional Lutheran and the writings of Pastor Paul Burgdorf.  The "State of the Church" conference founders accomplished their goal of embedding "The Brief Statement" into LCMS theology and dismissing any remnant of the "44."

Supporters of Burgdorf contributed to the continued publication of "Lutheran News," later "Christian News," under editor Herman Otten.  The ALBP Publication, "The American Lutheran," under editor Adolf Meyer is now "Lutheran Forum."

I was present at the first State of the Church Conference in Milwaukee. In fact, I agreed to my brother Herman Otten's request to serve as secretary of the Conference. (At the time I was parish deaconess at Nazareth in downtown Milwaukee.) What I heard and witnessed there was unsettling.   

On August 12, 1962 my father-in-Adolf Meyer presided at the wedding of Bill Meyer and Marie Otten.  Also present at the New York wedding were Oswald Hoffman, a signer of the "44," and my brother Herman Otten, editor of the new "Lutheran News."

Two weeks later, Grace Anderson, one of my college roommates and a bridesmaid at the Bill Meyer/Marie Otten wedding, married Herman Otten in Marengo, Iowa.  Bill and I were both members of the Herman Otten/Grace Anderson wedding party attended by numerous supporters of the former Confessional Lutheran.

Persons who lived through events that followed the Milwaukee State of the Church know that the history of the LCMS from that time on is not the story of an "LCMS German ghetto" that "glommed onto the American mainstream just in time to buy high and sell low."

The internal political and theological story is far different and far more tragic. It is story that began within the LCMS, is currently maintained within the LCMS... a story that contributes to the current decline of the LCMS.

IOW... the current decline neither originated outside the LCMS, nor is it maintained from without.  We have yet to meet and confront the problem that exists within.

Marie Otten Meyer


Accurate, Marie. The Burgdorf-Otten rebellion was not the only factor toward decline but was perhaps the largest contributor.

Peace, JOHN

PS: I still have a cousin living in Marengo.

23
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 04:18:22 PM »
I have watched parts of this course so far. It is accurate and fair in my estimation. Best of all the two avoid hysterical descriptions of characters opposing the majority. All are treated as sincere churchmen.

Peace, JOHN

24
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 02:45:24 PM »

Don, John, and Dave, I think it is very telling that you are all describing the wounds associated with purging. The short term political gains of this tactic keep political leaders coming back to it as a solution while the long term damage ensures yet more purging in the future. The back and forth of this tactic will need to stop for the sake of stability and renewed growth.


Indeed, Ed. The consequences of starting a purge is that it becomes addictive to some and others join and also become addicted.   :)

Peace, JOHN

25
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 01:27:56 PM »
Dave,

You sure do hate the Benedict Option!


Are you sure he does, Will? Maybe he merely rejects a perverted Benedict option of the church isolated.

Peace, JOHN

26
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 10:22:53 AM »

So, for those who mourn what they feel we lost in the era before I entered the ministry, can you explain what we need to recover and rediscover that is no longer here?  Especially for those of us who did not live and experience the church in the era where your time began.


From what I read here from you I would say you are on the right track and fulfilling your proper vocation.     ;D

Peace, JOHN


27
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 10:03:43 AM »
Ah, the unending bitterness of that battle... We need to allow the blood of the Savior which has answered for the sins of the world to do exactly that.

The bitterness of that battle is actually at an ebb, because most of the participants and those directly connected have passed or are well into their older years.  But "battle" is the operative term.  I've stated here and continue to hold that the battle that persists in our Missouri fellowship is not primarily the one from the 70s, but the one that took place in the late 80s and early 90s which could be labeled Bohlmann/RPreus and was more about leadership and succession - ecclesiology - than anything else.

Jack Preus spoke at length from retirement at the 1989 Synod convention about the division being created by his brother; eventually Bohlmann was upended, and a cycle of battles over worship style, prayer in public and leadership succession have continued.  I think the ongoing marker of leadership issues is highlighted by the simple fact that an anonymous group - the United List - controls the selection of national electees by a 90% margin.  I don't think there's another Protestant denomination with that "distinction."

People who studied under or were mentored by ACP or Fred, or Bill Danker, for example, will continue in their senior years to mourn the loss of those stalwarts to their denomination.  They should.  It was a great loss.  But more and more of those people are saints around the eternal throne each year.  John Hannah eloquently and painfully describes what's happened in Lutheranism as the authentic evangelical and catholic center has failed to hold.

Dave Benke

Yes, Dave. The consequences of the "Battle" reach into the 1980s and 1990s as we in the LCMS drifted from our evangelical catholic and confessional witness.

Peace, JOHN

28
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 09:27:27 AM »
The ultimate lunacy was labeling Dr. Arthur Carl Piepkorn as part of a faculty
that was no longer orthodox.  He was one of the outstanding theologians of
the LCMS in the 20th century. Dr. Piepkorn was unjustly condemned and
made a victim of a heresy hunt in the 1970's.

Indeed.   :)

Peace, JOHN

Double indeed.  All in the name of the Bible.

Dave Benke

Even a pastor holding an LCMS approved hermeneutic who happens to use his Nestle-Aland New Testament text will also use the BDAG lexicon. That is Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich. Danker was a world-class NT scholar but another victim of the heresy hunt.

Peace, JOHN
John, you consistently blame the LCMS for having doctrinal standards they actually enforce. Is it your contention that people like Prof. Becker teach what the LCMS teaches? Or that they donít, but they teach what the LCMS should teach? Or is it that they teach something different, but the LCMS should stop being so fussy about its teachers contradicting each other? How would you prevent the LCMS from becoming just another mainline liberal Protestant body like the ELCA if you think it wrong to remove preachers and teachers whose side with the ELCA on matter where the two bodies differ?

PETE,

The doctrinal standard of the LCMS is clear in the constitution. Confessions only. The only doctrinal standard of the prescribed ordination rites is clear. The Evangelical Lutheran Confessions. Sacramentally, liturgically, and theologically, the Lutheran Symbols clearly distinguish us from any American Protestant body, whether liberal or conservative.

Just in my lifetime I have watched sadly as American Lutheranism permitted our confessional heritage to erode and evolve gradually into various forms of Protestantism. Missouri opted for Evangelical Protestantism and the ELCA predecessors for the mainline. Our current state suggests that we are headed for extinction as Lutherans. There is no longer any reason to remain distinct. Once we were a brilliant evangelical catholic witness; now that is eclipsed by the American melting pot. I am an outlier, I know. So were Benedict, Luther, Stephan, Walther, and many, many more.   ;D

Peace, JOHN

29
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 02, 2021, 08:15:51 AM »
The ultimate lunacy was labeling Dr. Arthur Carl Piepkorn as part of a faculty
that was no longer orthodox.  He was one of the outstanding theologians of
the LCMS in the 20th century. Dr. Piepkorn was unjustly condemned and
made a victim of a heresy hunt in the 1970's.

Indeed.   :)

Peace, JOHN

Double indeed.  All in the name of the Bible.

Dave Benke

Even a pastor holding an LCMS approved hermeneutic who happens to use his Nestle-Aland New Testament text will also use the BDAG lexicon. That is Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich. Danker was a world-class NT scholar but another victim of the heresy hunt.

Peace, JOHN

30
Your Turn / Re: LCMS Inc 2020 Report
« on: January 01, 2021, 05:40:56 PM »
The ultimate lunacy was labeling Dr. Arthur Carl Piepkorn as part of a faculty
that was no longer orthodox.  He was one of the outstanding theologians of
the LCMS in the 20th century. Dr. Piepkorn was unjustly condemned and
made a victim of a heresy hunt in the 1970's.

Indeed.   :)

Peace, JOHN

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