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Your Turn / Re: Where are your men?
« on: December 12, 2008, 02:06:26 PM »
Q. "Where are your men?"
A. "pregame at 11, kickoff at noon"
A. "pregame at 11, kickoff at noon"

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Thanks for acknowledging that.
I have never believed total agreement is the basis of any denomination, church, or even a marriage and a family.
However, all these things have to have a central core of belief or creed . Whether it is a confessional statement, or a wedding vow, promises are made and you share what you believe in, as a matter of faith without knowing the future.
My point was that it would be very sad to even consider the possibility of leaving, either as a pastor or congregation. And I pray it never gets to that point. But, if it did, my emphasis was on the fact that our congregation would continue on and preach the Gospel and share ministry and mission. That would be true even if at some point ( one or three or five or ten years from now) the ELCA split, was dissolved, or diminished.
In that sense, to continue to proclaim the Good News, we don't need the ELCA. Would we be diminished in some respects? Probably. Would we be poorer in our ecumenical and inter-Lutheran dialogue, most likely. But we wouldn't close the doors or cease to operate. Since this is a public forum, I just wanted it noted that these words are not to be construed as the congregation I serve would leave, or I would leave. So much is unknown. Some pastors are promoting congregations who are orthodox should stay in ELCA but withdraw financial support. We are just waiting to see what happens in MN and then will act in response, but are not being pre -emptive. And hopefully the good folks there will not go off the deep end.
Now, you contend we "need the ELCA". I guess my point was, if it is the ELCA of today, that may be possibly true, but far more from a collegial standpoint than necessity. And if if it is the ELCA of 2009 or 2011 (or whenever the revisionists finally get their agenda foisted on the whole church )you speak of , many churches and pastors will "not be needing" the ELCA as they will see it as a church which has lost it's confessional moorings.
Lastly, a topic which hopefully is not too much thread drift but pertains to 2009 .....is anyone on this forum who is an ELCA pastor or layperson concerned if the vote goes off a cliff that they will have a decision to make that affects them personally in remaining on the clergy roster (or not) of ELCA, and a congregational process, and the two may not be in congruence?
Jeff RubyAgreed, Pastor Ruby, I wrote too strongly and it is evident that your parish is an active part of the ELCA. But you have said you really don't "need" the ELCA. I contend that you do, even if it doesn't always do what you want it to do.
Sorry about the harsh words and nonetheless, cheers.
Back on the point for a moment:
There is a theological issue involved here beyond being nice and one that the Lutheran “Streitkultur” needs to take more seriously. Christian language, and especially theological argument, should witness to the God who is Love, incarnate in Jesus, who is the Truth. Truth and love are finally one. When language seeking the truth is not spoken in love it is inadequate in its witness. We are to speak the truth in love not to be nice, but because when we speak the truth in something other than love, then what we say is defective precisely as truth. When Luther says that the 8th commandment means that I should interpret my neighbor in the best possible light, I think we should take that as an epistemological point: I am most likely to rightly understand the neighbor when I interpret the neighbor in the best light. That should apply to theological argument. We ought to think about how Luther on the 8th commandment applies to arguments in settings like this one. (I will grant that I myself in some of the ecumenical arguments within the ELCA a few years ago may have spoken in less than loving ways; I am not sinless in this respect.)
Michael Root
Have you given any thought to the fact that some people come from a family or cultural environment in which love abounds, but is expressed at a high decibel level? I would imagine that there are some in here with very little first hand experience with the low-key, soft, gentle Hallmark Card expressions of love that others seem to regard as the only flavor that love comes in. Some marital relationships I have observed that are clearly based on intense feelings of mutual love are also marked by yelling, screaming, occasional plate throwing and extremely passionate "make-up" relations. I suspect that one of the things that keeps many people at arm's length from Christianity is the idea that the only valid expression of Christian love appears to be too "fairy tale" for some people to identify with.
In reference to yesterday's formation of a new North American Anglican Province, dig this from the New York Times report:QuoteJim Naughton, canon for communications and advancement in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, and a liberal who frequently blogs on Anglican affairs, said he doubted that a rival Anglican province could grow much larger.
"I think this organization does not have much of a future because there are already a lot of churches in the United States for people who don’t want to worship with gays and lesbians," he said. "That’s not a market niche that is underserved."
Wow, Mr. Naughton really doesn't get the point.
Check out this quote:
However, Jim Naughton, of the Episcopal Church denied charges of unorthodoxy. He said: “There are small antigay Christian denominations all over the US and we have existed in the midst of these denominations for ages. At this point, this is just another of those small antigay Christian denominations. They are distinguished from other small antigay churches in the US by their global pretensions, but the relationships they have cultivated with a handful of like-minded leaders in Africa do not really change the dynamic here in the US.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5289581.ece
Welcome back Vicar Bob!
In reference to yesterday's formation of a new North American Anglican Province, dig this from the New York Times report:QuoteJim Naughton, canon for communications and advancement in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, and a liberal who frequently blogs on Anglican affairs, said he doubted that a rival Anglican province could grow much larger.
"I think this organization does not have much of a future because there are already a lot of churches in the United States for people who don’t want to worship with gays and lesbians," he said. "That’s not a market niche that is underserved."
Projection screens are just another device or tool or instrument, nothing more. They can be well-used or they can be mis-used or they can be intrusive and offensive. For me, the deal is the aesthetic and devotional "focus" of the service, which - on Sundays - ought to be the altar and the pulpit. Having the words of the liturgy, including the eucharistic prayer, on a screen up in the corner, detracts from the action at the altar.
I fear that many are either just playing with the technology or using it without considering the "bigger picture."
Though I prefer a worship booklet with full text of most things, I have almost never put the text of the eucharistic prayer in the booklet. I want people's attention to be on the altar where the taking and giving thanks and blessing and breaking is going on, rather than on a page in their hands.
I was at one church where, during the organ prelude, slides on the screens "advertised" upcoming events, made announcements, and did other things which, in my opinion, did not lead us into a worshipful state of mind. It was like the commercials that run on the screen while people are coming into movie theater. Yuck!
This is too rich: the two messiahs meet today. That is, the one who is being spoken of as such used just that language to describe his first encounter with the other. They can of course relive the moment if one of them reads foxnews:
"Suddenly it felt as if somebody in a back room had flipped a switch," Obama wrote. "The president's eyes became fixed; his voice took on the agitated, rapid tone of someone neither accustomed to nor welcoming interruption; his easy affability was replaced by an almost messianic certainty. As I watched my mostly Republican Senate colleagues hang on his every word, I was reminded of the dangerous isolation that power can bring, and appreciated the Founders' wisdom in designating a system to keep power in check."
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/11/09/bush-obama-meeting-hard-feelings-hand-sanitier/
Hope they, and you, have a good day!