Messages

31

Your Turn / Re: A different take on the guns and schools debate

« on: May 10, 2023, 08:24:37 PM »

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don’t have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don’t want if it doesn’t pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don’t want. They only don’t want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

I don't think of any immigrant as a "poor schmuck," first of all.  Secondly, from Genesis through the Psalms through the New Testament, there is dignity in work.  Dignity in providing support for a family, dignity in getting education for the children, dignity in moving through society.  One of my great friends came to this country with nothing and limited family, took the gas station attendant job (like many immigrants in NYC, by the way), and through the course of years of, yes, hard work, came to own a car dealership.  Where he treats his employees with respect and dignity and where he manifests his Lutheran Christian faith daily.

What's ultimately the reality here is that immigrants take jobs.  They want to work.  They work hard.  Going off into some myopic economic theorizing is simply dehumanizing.  It is specifically not in the spirit of the Lutheran document presented by Kieschnick and Harrison.

Dave Benke

32

Your Turn / Re: A different take on the guns and schools debate

« on: May 10, 2023, 06:06:33 PM »

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

33

Your Turn / Re: The Aging LCMS Pastors & Laity

« on: May 07, 2023, 11:27:40 AM »

To Tim’s point, best circuit ever in my lifetime has been what used to be called the Brooklyn circuit (now including States Island and lower Manhattan).  And the meetings were not at the circuit winkel but at Richard John Neuhaus’s rectory in Williamsburg, on a weekly late-night basis where all the Brooklyn pastors gathered for refreshments and convivium fraternum.  We had the winkel meetings, but they weren’t the convivium fraternum. 

And then Brooklyn became the home of the great Lenten interchange, where each of the five Wednesdays we’d switch congregations and take our parishioners to Canarsie or Bay Ridge or Cypress Hills or Bushwick for food and spiritual refreshment.  Wonderful.

Again, not the circuit winkel, but “more than” in terms of relationship-building and relationship-building beyond the pastors but among the parishes. 

Circuits with a lot of conflict or diminishment of workers/parishes are tough these days, and members can head to other congregations for sanctuary from the fighting or the sense of doom.  In those cases even more the need for the informal connections that bind folks together in the Lord.

Dave Benke

34

Your Turn / Re: Law Suits and Christian Practice

« on: May 07, 2023, 11:17:35 AM »

I repeat. It’s exceedingly unfair to all the members of this once august forum if there are anonymous, posters with names not known by all. This is especially unfortunate when the poster, makes controversial or highly critical comments.
Furthermore, why in the supposedly collegial forum, would anyone want to be anonymous? What are they hiding?
Then there is the matter of supposedly a rule against anonymous posters.
There is a pastor here maybe named Tim, Who might’ve been accidentally revealed as a pastor Klinkenberg, but I can’t be sure of that.

Why can’t you be sure his name is Tim Klinkenberg when he has told you that is his name? Anyone can lie about their name if they really want to. In an online forum especially. Just because you use Charles Austin as your screen name doesn’t mean you really are one of the Charles Austins one can Google.

This has been the case with the “gan ainm” moniker from the beginning.  Why couldn’t two or more folks be “gan ainm?”  It’s a non-trademarked (as far as I know) acrostic.

  Maybe there is a gan ainm hive out there, with a related or non-related queen bee gan ainm and worker bees.  That’s been mainly nagging at me for awhile, in a QAnon sort of way.  Thanks for freeing me up to express the thought, Peter or Pseudo-Peter.

Dave Benke

35

Your Turn / Re: Law Suits and Christian Practice

« on: May 05, 2023, 10:43:38 AM »

Ted Kober provides through Peacemakers great Lutheran material for conflict resolution.  In a congregational setting, it’s tough to monitor every step along the way.  And the system can be gamed because a congregational voters’ assembly is King at least in our LCMS version of Lutheran.  Ergo, there are democratic or pseudo democratic elections periodically, which can have a dramatic effect on any conflict, especially one in which the pastor is involved.  So everyone plays nice, then even though the ecclesiastical supervisor urges that all elections be held in abeyance, they go ahead anyway.  And the resolvable Scripturally based resolution is overtaken by the voters’ assembly, which votes to stop paying the pastor, or excommunicate the group put out of power through the election process, etc. etc.  And those congregations go right down the tank, and the pastors (if involved) are devastated.  Not Ted Kobe’s fault.  Not the Bible’s fault.  Not the LUtheran Confessions’ fault.  Human failure.

To a certain point, I recall members of the Board of Directors of the LCMS suing the LCMS and its President for election fraud.  A fraud which did not exist.  That went to a panel which I was on, and got sort of resolved.  The suing Board members, upon the electoral vistory of the United List, eventually all got put back on either the Board of Directors or other Boards.  Absolute malarkey.  Absolutely an indicator of the LCMS disease labeled as infighting.

Dave Benke

Dave, I was not in the LCMS when Jerry Kieschnick was sued.  I defended their lawsuit at the time.  I was wrong to do so.  They shouldn't have done it.

Thanks for this post, RD!

“Reserved case confession”  is unknown to me, and if someone was using that term, I can guarantee it was not discussed at the level of the Council of Presidents for a 24 year period when I was there.  Whoever you were dealing with, Pastor Ed, must have not understood the confessional seal.  Because your pastor back then would have had no one to talk to about what he heard from you, that being the promise made in ordination.

Dave Benke

36

Your Turn / Re: Law Suits and Christian Practice

« on: May 04, 2023, 05:22:05 PM »

Ted Kober provides through Peacemakers great Lutheran material for conflict resolution.  In a congregational setting, it’s tough to monitor every step along the way.  And the system can be gamed because a congregational voters’ assembly is King at least in our LCMS version of Lutheran.  Ergo, there are democratic or pseudo democratic elections periodically, which can have a dramatic effect on any conflict, especially one in which the pastor is involved.  So everyone plays nice, then even though the ecclesiastical supervisor urges that all elections be held in abeyance, they go ahead anyway.  And the resolvable Scripturally based resolution is overtaken by the voters’ assembly, which votes to stop paying the pastor, or excommunicate the group put out of power through the election process, etc. etc.  And those congregations go right down the tank, and the pastors (if involved) are devastated.  Not Ted Kobe’s fault.  Not the Bible’s fault.  Not the LUtheran Confessions’ fault.  Human failure.

To a certain point, I recall members of the Board of Directors of the LCMS suing the LCMS and its President for election fraud.  A fraud which did not exist.  That went to a panel which I was on, and got sort of resolved.  The suing Board members, upon the electoral vistory of the United List, eventually all got put back on either the Board of Directors or other Boards.  Absolute malarkey.  Absolutely an indicator of the LCMS disease labeled as infighting.

Dave Benke

37

Your Turn / Re: The Aging LCMS Pastors & Laity

« on: May 04, 2023, 01:48:53 PM »

So, even though the LCMS currently has a pastor SHORTAGE, if the age statistics of the LCMS do not change, it won't be too long before we have a pastor SURPLUS because of all the LCMS congregations that have closed.

I’ve often opined, Tom, that rural and urban congregations have more in common with one another than it seems.  Even as the rural areas lose population and congregations either merge or simply close, urban congregations lost substantial membership through the decades to outbound, or now southbound migration.  In the urban setting it’s not that there are no people around.  Some urban neighborhoods have shrunken, to be sure, but where I’m located, there are tons of apartments being built, which will be occupied by a more gentrifying crowd.  So we simply have to re-imagine outreach.

In both cases the current congregations are frankly too small to sustain in terms of compensation or need. 

I am happy to hear of new student growth at St. Louis; watching Call Night there and the announcement that over 30 congregations were not going to receive a candidate tells me that there’s definitely need.

Dave Benke

38

Your Turn / Re: Global Methodist Church Is 1 Year Old

« on: May 02, 2023, 04:03:24 PM »

Both Tom and Charles are correct.  The ELCA has to agree to the NALC becoming a member of the LWF, which would mean the ELCA would have to agree to being in fellowship with the NALC.  They're not about to do that (hopefully at some future time they will repent) so everything is officially on hold.  My sense is, though, that the NALC has somewhat lost interest in affiliating with the LWF, so they're OK with nothing much happening.

I suspect that the disagreement about fellowship is even stronger in the NALC. Can you see them accepting fellowship with the ELCA?

It is an interesting question that does shed light on the absurdity of communion fellowship between churches with mutually-exclusive positions on any point of doctrine.

Your point also leads to the more sectarian perspective that inside church denominations people, mostly clergy, refuse communion fellowship with their own denominational members over positions that are not on the list of “doctrinal resolutions” but are treated that way - viz. perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

39

Your Turn / Re: Homeschooling

« on: May 02, 2023, 03:59:32 PM »

Lutherans of all stripes have had the second largest parochial school enterprise by number in the US for a long time.  There are basically two stripes, LCMS and WELS, except in the area of early childhood, where all Lutherans tend to participate.  So we have been invested in education and spiritual formation for our faithful and our communities at the highest level.  After a long and sustained drop in enrollment, the Roman Catholic schools grew during the time of COVID.  It’s possible the same phenomenon took place among the Lutherans. 

Additional competition could be found from the charter school movement, which in areas of high concentration has diminished Lutheran schools substantially, since the charters are tuition free, and in promotion/branding of parochial schools as an alternative to the public systems, and finally with the increase of home schooling. 

The church of my childhood closed last year, even though its school, which I attended, could have continued due to receiving vouchers.  The voucher program didn’t translate in any meaningful way, apparently, to church membership.

“In loco parentis” had a wonderfully heyday, as did the fourth commandment and its meaning.  Not so much any more.

Dave Benke

40

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 27, 2023, 03:18:03 PM »

I was nominated for CTCR and filled out the forms but apparently did not make the cut to be on the ballot at all, much less the United List. Not sure why. I would have held Scott's world domination in check with blistering dissents that also winsomely demonstrated the error of his ways.

That you didn't make the nominations cut is interesting.  What's their problem? 

At the same time, you can and alpb should orchestrate a floor nomination for you, although that might split the emerging ALPB Choice vote.  The way forward is to have an ALPB Choice voting list, and begin with several worthy candidates who participate here, nominating them for positions of influence from the floor and mailing our choices to the delegates. 

If you're in favor of an ALPB Choice voting list of floor nominees and already-nominated candidates, please raise your hand or chip in with a comment. 

My personal goal is to have a Preus on every board and commission in the Missouri Synod within ten years.  From there we go for two Preus family members on every board and commission, and then three, until the Preus family has a super-majority on every board and commission in the Missouri Synod.  I add the one restrictive, and that is that these must be male members of the Preus family, no matter the current allowance for women on boards and commissions.

Dave Benke

Given current population trends and attitudes toward procreation, the Preus family might have a supermajority of the general population in a few generations. Then your personal goals will materialize by virtue of raw statistical probability.

This was part of my thought process.  The other idea is to expand what is included in the "Preus family."  Luther Classical College is the place to tackle that task.  It's a Preus Family enterprise, with colleagues, adherents and student trainees.  At the end of either the college career or the involvement in that enterprise they can and I think should be considered part of the family.  With that in mind, the goal can be accomplished to completion in no more than 25 years.

Dave Benke

41

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 27, 2023, 01:41:32 PM »

I was nominated for CTCR and filled out the forms but apparently did not make the cut to be on the ballot at all, much less the United List. Not sure why. I would have held Scott's world domination in check with blistering dissents that also winsomely demonstrated the error of his ways.

That you didn't make the nominations cut is interesting.  What's their problem? 

At the same time, you can and alpb should orchestrate a floor nomination for you, although that might split the emerging ALPB Choice vote.  The way forward is to have an ALPB Choice voting list, and begin with several worthy candidates who participate here, nominating them for positions of influence from the floor and mailing our choices to the delegates. 

If you're in favor of an ALPB Choice voting list of floor nominees and already-nominated candidates, please raise your hand or chip in with a comment. 

My personal goal is to have a Preus on every board and commission in the Missouri Synod within ten years.  From there we go for two Preus family members on every board and commission, and then three, until the Preus family has a super-majority on every board and commission in the Missouri Synod.  I add the one restrictive, and that is that these must be male members of the Preus family, no matter the current allowance for women on boards and commissions.

Dave Benke

42

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 27, 2023, 12:52:24 PM »

Yes! Most regents of each Concordia are elected at the national convention. An anonymous group of clergy publish a list of “approved candidates” for all synodical offices including all the regents. For all of the recent conventions most candidates listed on that “United List” have been elected. Attempts to subvert the procedure by means of a competing list have failed. You can sense that convention veterans (Dave Benke, PrTim) have simply resigned themselves to the enduring dysfunction.

Hard to believe but true.

Peace,JOHN

Looks like my plans for world dominion have failed.  I didn't make the United List for the Board for International Mission.  Drat!

I just found the nominations information and download.  So you are a nominee, but not one supported by the United List.  Let's rock the vote for Scott, ALPB Forum Online! 

I say that even though the United List choice, Dave Stechholz, is an avid Mets fan and former COP colleague. 

Overall, my spidey sense is that the nominations committee brings forward a fairly balanced list of nominees.  The Chair is one of RD's brothers, Christian, so you can check with RD if you'd like. 

So there are several issues -
a) will there be more than one list?  I don't have an answer.
b) how do the convention delegates stack up in terms of their points of view on issues and candidates?  Unknown, but....
c) will there be floor nominees to mess with the nominations committee inclusions?
Here my hunch is that there will not be that many floor nominations.  Reason is that folks have done the advance work and connected with or were in fact members of the United List so that they know the votes are already pretty much going to be for the United List.  I say that because that's the way it works.  Failure to plan is to plan to fail.

Personal estimate way in advance: 
United List - 93% elected
Vote margins - 60-62% to 38-40% with some variables along the way

But then, who am I?  Maybe Synodical President Pat Ferry will shake a fist at me upon his election and call me out for overestimating the power and sweep of the United List in LCMS politics. 

Dave Benke


 

43

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 27, 2023, 09:21:06 AM »

Yes sir…that’s why congregational ministry is so critical…we believe the Scriptures, we believe the Gospel…we are Sacramental…we honestly don’t need to have a convention somehow make us more confessional…that’s a myth IMHO…but we will celebrate being in fellowship with tiny factions of Lutherans, pat ourselves on the back and sing the doxology. It’s a small way to think we are a big deal.

Yes to congregational ministry being the absolutely major focus, Tim.

We held a tremendous celebration in our parish hall last night in Brooklyn as we watched the Call Night service at Concordia Seminary St. Louis.  Prayer group  in the sanctuary led by one of our Guyanese women followed by pizza, and then the service on You Tube on the big screen TV.  Calls were extended, candidates came forward, and St. Peter's, Brooklyn received not one but two associate pastors.  When the Ethnic Immigrant Institute of Theology candidates came forward, we all rose from our chairs and stood in front of the TV and watched Henry Chanderdatt step forward to receive his Divine Call.   Cheers and tears of joy. When the Hispanic Center of Studies candidates were announced, there was only one.  And he was with us in the parish hall, as his name was announced.  Jose Pinedo Whatts received his Divine Call. Cheers and tears of joy.  They will be ordained and installed in the late summer/fall.  It was an amazing evening!

Dave Benke

44

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 26, 2023, 06:46:32 PM »

I would be happy to make a motion that the CTCR examine the issue or the Koinonia project take it up. It isn’t something I’m passionate about either way. My daughter is thinking about going to Seward in a few years, and certainly if the discussion led to a woman president at Seward it would not automatically be a deal-breaker in and of itself. I’d have to follow the discussion. But by the same token, if the discussion concluded that only men can serve in that role, I wouldn’t trust that the discussion had concluded in your mind. It would result in calls for more discussion or else all kinds of shenanigans like relabeling the position or finding some workaround. That’s why I can take or leave discussion, too. It is a foregone conclusion that the discussion is never over until the conservative side loses a vote. Then the discussion ends forever and the matter is settled.

That last comment is kind of a laugher, Peter.  When has the "conservative" side lost a vote recently?  It's a walkover, basically, at least throughout the convention workbook and as I've predicted, at the level of elections up and down ballot. 

I have little skin left in the game myself.  There is a woman who knocks it out of the park in terms of leadership skills; of course in life there are many and will be many more.  But in the LCMS the glass ceiling is made of titanium.  Too much to lose by giving permissions.  And really the desire is to gain traction for patriarchy.

As one of our midwestern DPs told me laughingly, "once you let a woman read a lesson, the next thing they'll expect to do is usher.  Where does it end?"

Dave Benke

I wasn’t talking about simply the LCMS. Just look at your comments about women’s suffrage. In your mind, there was a vote. That settled it. Any effort to discuss it again is a non-starter if not an eye-roller. But if the vote had gone the other way, there would have been another vote, and then another one after that.

You mentioned GCU being a conservative Christian university. Conservative Christianity is patriarchal. If patriarchy bothers you, you shouldn’t be advocating for a conservative Christian university.

I'd say patriarchy-ish for GCU as opposed to say Bob Jones University.  As far as "conservative Christianity" goes, it's a reasonably wide stream.  Speaking today with a Jewish friend who attends a Reformed synagogue, he rattled off everything from his own place on the left to the Hasidim on the right with the Conservative, Orthodox and Conservodox (he said that's a real thing) and other brands. 

As far as continuing the conversation if you're not satisfied with the result, doesn't everybody do that anyway?  I can say the results in terms of the LCMS are locked in at probably the 90% level.  We are a conservative church body that bases its beliefs and statements on Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions as we have understood them pretty much all along at that 90% level. 

On the issue of women, as one with women serving in all types of leadership locally and at the district level for such a long time, it's not an issue for me that fires me up.  It's an assumption about the power and gifts endowed in baptism for all the faithful. 

Dave Benke

45

Your Turn / Re: Concordia University Texas

« on: April 26, 2023, 06:18:51 PM »

I would be happy to make a motion that the CTCR examine the issue or the Koinonia project take it up. It isn’t something I’m passionate about either way. My daughter is thinking about going to Seward in a few years, and certainly if the discussion led to a woman president at Seward it would not automatically be a deal-breaker in and of itself. I’d have to follow the discussion. But by the same token, if the discussion concluded that only men can serve in that role, I wouldn’t trust that the discussion had concluded in your mind. It would result in calls for more discussion or else all kinds of shenanigans like relabeling the position or finding some workaround. That’s why I can take or leave discussion, too. It is a foregone conclusion that the discussion is never over until the conservative side loses a vote. Then the discussion ends forever and the matter is settled.

That last comment is kind of a laugher, Peter.  When has the "conservative" side lost a vote recently?  It's a walkover, basically, at least throughout the convention workbook and as I've predicted, at the level of elections up and down ballot. 

I have little skin left in the game myself.  There is a woman who knocks it out of the park in terms of leadership skills; of course in life there are many and will be many more.  But in the LCMS the glass ceiling is made of titanium.  Too much to lose by giving permissions.  And really the desire is to gain traction for patriarchy.

As one of our midwestern DPs told me laughingly, "once you let a woman read a lesson, the next thing they'll expect to do is usher.  Where does it end?"

Dave Benke