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Messages - Dave Benke

#16
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 13, 2024, 10:49:41 AM
Since my name is on this thread at the behest of Someone, so we could carry it over from another thread, there are specifics as to prohibitions and non-prohibitions for women in ministry in the Missouri Synod.  I'm going to try to do so propositionally.

One of my reasons for doing this is that we have 368 subscribed participants on this open forum, but many more people follow its discussions, threads, dialogs.  And the slice of the Missouri Synod pie participating here is thin.  So here goes: 

Women in the Missouri Synod are NOT prohibited from voting in the congregational assembly.
Congregations in the Missouri Synod are not MANDATED to allow for women to vote in the congregational assembly.

Women in the Missouri Synod are NOT prohibited from holding congregational offices of leadership up to and including president and vice-president.
Congregations in the Missouri Synod are not MANDATED to allow women to hold all congregational offices of service.

Women in the Missouri Synod are NOT prohibited from reading lessons in the Divine Service, or at other non-Eucharistic worship services. 
Congregations in the Missouri Synod are not MANDATED to allow women to read lessons at their various worship services.

Women rostered as commissioned workers in the Missouri Synod are NOT prohibited from altar participation (assisting minister)/reading lessons in the Divine Service or other non-Eucharistic services.
Congregations with rostered commissioned women workers in the Missouri Synod are not MANDATED to allow those women to read lessons or participate in Assisting Minister functions in their various worship services.

Laypeople in the Missouri Synod are NOT prohibited from speaking during the Divine Service or other non=Eucharistic worship services.
Congregations in the Missouri Synod are not MANDATED to allow laypeople to speak at their various worship services.
(A word of eplanation on this - catching up after the weekend, I picked up a post in which laypeople are NOT speaking during worship services.  I personally had never heard of this practice, so I inserted this point in response to that post.)

Women ARE prohibited from exercising the distinct functions of the pastoral office, ie preaching and consecration of the Holy Eucharist (ACVII, XIV) in the Missouri Synod.

Women are NOT prohibited from teaching Bible studies/classes in the congregations of the Missouri Synod.
Women are not MANDATED to teach Bible studies/classes in the congregations of the Missouri Synod.

This is a starter kit. I used what I believe to be the term most appropriate for the Missouri Synod posture in each case:  Prohibited/NOT prohibited and MANDATED/not Mandated. 

What this reveals is a type of adiaphorous belief and practice.  I say "a type of" because in most of these cases there is an acknowledgment of the lack of Scriptural/Confessional determinatives for absolute prohibition.  At the same time, NOT PROHIBITED does not equal "Encouraged" as far as practice. 

This is an area for discussion, in my opinion.  I believe all the practices listed that are NOT Prohibited should be Encouraged.  Others, particularly in the thin slice of Missouri Synod pie represented on this online forum, do not.

Some of those who are not moved to Encourage the practices Not Prohibited above have stated that if, say, a woman were reading a non-Gospel lesson in a church they were visiting, they would not attend the Eucharist if celebrated at that congregation.  At the same time, it is my considered understanding that if the situation were reversed (ie a pastor allowing women to read non-Gospel lessons attended a church where that is not the practice), that pastor - we'll say it's a pastor - could not be prevented from receiving the Eucharist at that church.  In the one instance, anyone can decide not to receive the offered Eucharist; in the other instance, the privilege of the altar cannot be denied to someone holding a view not prohibited in the denomination. 

Dave Benke
#17
Your Turn / Re: Busy Mom!
May 12, 2024, 12:38:21 PM
Her name is written in the Book of Life!

Dave Benke
#18
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 10, 2024, 05:50:13 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 10, 2024, 12:22:41 PMOur school doesn't have an endowment. But it's doing quite well (classical Lutheran model), and the parish still foots the bill for all the children who are members. The older members continually say: "We couldn't support the school the way we should when we had children in it; now we can. Remember that when it's your turn."

A model for Lutherans will be the Classical, and it can extend through college beginning next year if you're inclined to make your tent in Wyoming.

I personally do not think that's either the only model or the model of choice for many Lutheran schools and educators.  As of now, I also don't think that's the way Classical Lutheran is being promoted - as the only authentic Lutheran model for education.  You can tell me if I'm wrong on that. 

Those of us who have contracted with the gummint to run Universal Pre-K programs on our sites have found that our opportunities for mission outreach to those families have remained lively.  In that sense, the catechumenate rolls on through baptism, first Holy Communion, confirmation and adult instruction; just not through the religion classes held in the pre-school - because there aren't any.

I certainly applaud those who are forming endowments for Christian education through their parochial schools.  Are there opportunities to apply for grants FROM those endowments for other Lutheran schools?  If so, send me a PM. 

Dave Benke
#19
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 12:03:29 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on May 10, 2024, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 10, 2024, 11:33:53 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 10, 2024, 11:23:30 AMA question to some of our LCMS participants (not all, by any means):  Is it possible for a woman to speak during the Divine Service?  For instance, this Sunday is Mother's Day (American).  Women may rise and thank God through a specific story or with their kids/family, at least at one Missouri Synod congregation.  They're speaking in church during a worship service.  Is that "public teaching" and therefore unScriptural? 

I would say Yes and No.  Yes, it's public.  Yes, the sharing could be perceived by some folks as "teaching."  No, it's not impossible.  It is specifically not the Sermon, not the Predig by the Prediger in the Predigamt.  In fact, I would say it's advisable and should be encouraged by laity of either stripe.  The teaching office is not invalidated or supplanted.  It is in fact authenticated, in that the message proclaimed by the proclaimer on behalf of the Proclamation has been received, Alleluia and thank you, Jesus.

Dave Benke
"Teachers" is one of the gifts listed in Ephesians 4 - along with "pastors." If women are allowed to teach in worship, why not also pastor?
Teaching, unlike preaching, takes place in many contexts other than worship. Women are permitted to teach, just not on worship. 1 Timothy 2 modifies other references that would have women teach. 

Back awhile, when Matt was inaugurated for the first (or second) time as Synodical President, great friend Monique Nunes sang a Gospel hymn/song.  Afterward, the specific thing you mention was brought up by, in my remembrance, some of the Gottesdiensters.  They
a) didn't like a Gospel hymn/song
b) heard Monique sing and do some call/response portions
c) determined that the responses were "public teaching"
d) used the argument atht sine this transpired inside the Divine Service it was a violation of the order of creation and of the order that women keep silent.

As always, where crazy goes to die.

Dave Benke
#20
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 11:59:35 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 10, 2024, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 10, 2024, 11:23:30 AMA question to some of our LCMS participants (not all, by any means):  Is it possible for a woman to speak during the Divine Service?  For instance, this Sunday is Mother's Day (American).  Women may rise and thank God through a specific story or with their kids/family, at least at one Missouri Synod congregation.  They're speaking in church during a worship service.  Is that "public teaching" and therefore unScriptural? 

I would say Yes and No.  Yes, it's public.  Yes, the sharing could be perceived by some folks as "teaching."  No, it's not impossible.  It is specifically not the Sermon, not the Predig by the Prediger in the Predigamt.  In fact, I would say it's advisable and should be encouraged by laity of either stripe.  The teaching office is not invalidated or supplanted.  It is in fact authenticated, in that the message proclaimed by the proclaimer on behalf of the Proclamation has been received, Alleluia and thank you, Jesus.

Dave Benke




I don't think most LCMS congregations distinguish between the sexes when it comes to having people stand up and give testimonies during Divine Service. It isn't part of the order of service and generally doesn't happen in the sanctuary. It happens informally, not formally.

By "formally" at least in our setting, there's a portion before the prayers and after the Nicene Creed where people speak/share.  It's under the heading "Announcements and Sharing" so a part of the order of service. They're still in the sanctuary.  I at least find it better that way than in the gossip session (oops, fellowship hour) after church in another part of the complex.  It's informal in that it's not scripted or mandatory, though.  "You, pew three, get up and tell a meaningful story!" 

Anyway, my advice is to give five to ten minutes to this portion of the service.  It can also serve as a way for folks to introduce those they've brought to church or individual newcomers to be recognized.

Dave Benke
#21
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 11:23:30 AM
A question to some of our LCMS participants (not all, by any means):  Is it possible for a woman to speak during the Divine Service?  For instance, this Sunday is Mother's Day (American).  Women may rise and thank God through a specific story or with their kids/family, at least at one Missouri Synod congregation.  They're speaking in church during a worship service.  Is that "public teaching" and therefore unScriptural? 

I would say Yes and No.  Yes, it's public.  Yes, the sharing could be perceived by some folks as "teaching."  No, it's not impossible.  It is specifically not the Sermon, not the Predig by the Prediger in the Predigamt.  In fact, I would say it's advisable and should be encouraged by laity of either stripe.  The teaching office is not invalidated or supplanted.  It is in fact authenticated, in that the message proclaimed by the proclaimer on behalf of the Proclamation has been received, Alleluia and thank you, Jesus.

Dave Benke



#22
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 10, 2024, 11:16:25 AM
Under the general theme of how the LCMS moves into a better place down the line (remembering that Stone's thesis is that the next generation growth pattern is not happening any time soon), what's the theory on having an endowment, and how should an endowment be managed including by whom? 

Organized money is power - it gives the ability to act and continue acting.  Who's in charge either assists or gets in the way.  And - lots of time in local congregation, the endowment allows a dying congregation to stay alive on life support, viz. the 15 people at St. John Pump have $1.5 million dollars in the endowment which pays for the building expenses and a part-time pastor and (of course) a full time parish secretary whose husband is the chair of the endowment fund.  The mission of Christ to the world?  Not so much.  Lyle Schaller said in the way back when that the endowment can be either a pearl necklace or a chain around the neck attached to an anchor. 

Anyway, worth more comments and thoughts.

Dave Benke
#23
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 09:39:24 AM
God said so.  That settles it.

The Battle for the Bible mic drop. 

Gott Mit Uns on the belt buckle of the German soldiers in WWI, the war to end all wars. 
Oh, snap.  That didn't end well for those on the inside of the belt.  Twice.

Dave Benke
#24
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 10, 2024, 09:35:13 AM
Quote from: PrTim15 on May 10, 2024, 08:45:49 AMIt became clear to me when the fundraisers came back out that the break from Covid was over. The Concordias, the Seminary, the various mission organizations, et al everybody has their hand out. Part of being Senior Pastor is helping steward the giving of our congregation to various things. Giving to our School's Endowment Fund is a top priority. Here in CA the fees, taxes, regulations and other intrusions are suffocating our schools and non-profits. Continuing to grow our endowment fund keeps the school accessible to all families and actually gives us staying power and the ability take some chances programmaticially.

A factor that led and is leading to the closing of Lutheran schools (and I'm sure others) is the dysfunction behind "the COVID break."  Agencies and schools took the COVID offset funds (PPP, PPPII, etc) and treated them as though they would be recurring income.  Spending the funds without preparing future budgets without them led to basically the end of the world. 

What is the percentage of Lutheran grade schools with an endowment fund?  5%?  2%?
You're doing the right thing, but you may be one of the few that's doing anything.  Lead the way!!

Dave Benke

#25
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: Revpeter on May 09, 2024, 12:41:36 PM
Quote from: Mike in Pennsylvania on May 08, 2024, 08:03:28 PM
Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on May 08, 2024, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on May 08, 2024, 05:41:02 PMI encountered in a church of some size in Minnesota a service where the pastor presided at the altar, and then went and sat down as lay people distributed the sacrament. That was just weird. Did not return to that church.

ELCA?

Sounds like Disciples of Christ practice.  OTOH, some 30 years ago when I had a broken leg I consecrated the elements and let the lay people distribute, since it ain't too easy to do on crutches.

In my parishes, my use of a cane makes many folks nervous so on a regular basis the Elders and Deacons serve the communion while I stay at the Altar after the consecration.

I presided at a most wonderful Eucharists at the 100th Anniversary of the Atlantic District in 2006.  We had serious mojo at the time (by which I mean spiritual energy confessionally articulated).  So we had a 100th Anniversary service at the Egg in Albany, our state capitol; and a 100th Anniversary service at the Episcopal Cathedral of Garden City, LI.  And finally we had a 100th Anniversary Service at the West Point Cadet Chapel. 

Between 1600 and 2000 people attended the Eucharist at West Point.  (link:  https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/square-dynamic/small/images-medium-large-5/cadet-chapel-dan-mcmanus.jpg) The ushers were West Point cadets.  Price of admission right there, orchestrated by the head of the Economics Dept, Col. Michael Meese, and the head of buildings and grounds, Col. Michael Colaccico.  The choir was under the direction of Dr. Ralph Shultz.  The organist was Tom Schmidt.  The Preacher was Dr. Ron Fink, the Bishop who guided us through the years after the prior Bishop, Rudy Ressmeyer, was removed from office.  I was the Celebrant.

So amazing.  Except that I had just had knee surgery two weeks prior.  So I conducted the Eucharistic liturgy, consecrated the Elements, and then stood behind the altar (free standing) to witness the entire reception by the gathered communion of saints.  I may have a few copies of the CD of the music if anyone's interested.  "Foretaste of the Feast to Come" is what that was all about, and I was given the best view in the house because of my bum knee.
#26
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 09, 2024, 04:07:39 PM
I'm in total agreement with your last sentence and with most of the rest of the post.  For the reasons mentioned, the three levels of Church as we know it - national regional and local - are all headed in the same direction.  That's not a good thing.

With regard to UPK, the great and powerful allies for religious signage and religious permissions are the Jews.  Maybe that's an NYC thing.  But at our meetings, back when we had them face to face, the Educational Funders would wax eloquent on various curriculum components we didn't want or need, and the rabbis would say, "That's a violation of our religious principles," and they would win - over and over.  So toward the end of the last contractual run, I just took to saying, "Whatever the Yeshivas have, we want the same thing."  Religious signage, optional prayer time over the lunch hour, all possible because of the rabbis.  They've got game.  And they turn out voters at the 100% level.  I guess what you needed upstate was a rabbi.  Jesus actually WAS an upstate rabbi.

"Other people's kids" is a phrase not to be tolerated.  Incurvatus se.  "All the way/with incurvatus se!"  All the way to extinction.

Dave Benke
#27
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: JoshuaMc on May 09, 2024, 10:44:55 AM
Quote...where crazy goes to die.

Dave, I'm going to use this! Pithy and tragically on point for some of the zanier corners of our Lutheran world.


Peace,
Josh

As an alternate, consider the term "happy clappy."  That's been used for a long, long time by the more liturgical to describe those involved with contemporary tunes and tones.

My estimation, therefore, is that the average Lutheran church is where happy and clappy go to die.

Happy?  No, we don't cotton to happy much here.  Clappy?  Well, as the saying goes, "if you're happy and you know it clap your hands."  We're not happy, so we're not moved to clap.  At all.

Dave Benke
#28
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 12:11:55 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 09, 2024, 09:52:28 AMRev. Austin, God is not going to convince us that a male only pastorate is bad order because he has commanded in His holy Word that only males can serve as pastors.  Also, when a woman thinks she has a call from the Holy Spirit to be a pastor, she is wrong because the Holy Spirit says that a woman may not preach or teach in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34; 1 Timothy 2:12) But what about a woman preaching the gospel?  Is the Holy Spirit present in her preaching?  Now, that's a tough one.  We are faced with a contradiction.  On the one hand, God says don't do it.  If he says don't do it and somebody nevertheless does what he said not to do, will he bless it?  On the other hand, His Word is inherently efficacious.  I guess I'd have to go with the other hand.  A sermon that rightly proclaims God's gospel is efficacious regardless of who preaches it, even if God told the one preaching it that she may not preach.

This was an argument made in the other direction by the Ft.Wayne faculty as regards the Eucharist in the early 90s.  I credit you with some remnant level of Greek grammar understanding in your proper use of the English "on the one hand..on the other hand", which is the extension of the Greek "men/de" comparison clause.  (At this point, I insert the link to one of the all-time country songs about temptation by unquestionably the all-time all star of country music, George Jones - this is a must listen:  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=george%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube%20videos&FORM=VIRE0&mid=E6684C5DF394954A2EE8E6684C5DF394954A2EE8&view=detail&ru=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dgeorge%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube).

Back to the topic at hand.  Luther had opined on the efficacy of the Meal that even if the Pope or a pig had consecrated Holy Communion, the Meal itself would be valid.  Our friends at the Ft. Wayne seminary, doubling down as always, indicated that the word for "pig" was not the female "sow" in German, so that Luther was not including the Eucharist as consecrated by a woman.

It stands in my mind as where crazy goes to die.

Dave Benke
Quote from: RDPreus on May 09, 2024, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 09, 2024, 10:01:13 AM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 09, 2024, 09:52:28 AMRev. Austin, God is not going to convince us that a male only pastorate is bad order because he has commanded in His holy Word that only males can serve as pastors.  Also, when a woman thinks she has a call from the Holy Spirit to be a pastor, she is wrong because the Holy Spirit says that a woman may not preach or teach in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34; 1 Timothy 2:12) But what about a woman preaching the gospel?  Is the Holy Spirit present in her preaching?  Now, that's a tough one.  We are faced with a contradiction.  On the one hand, God says don't do it.  If he says don't do it and somebody nevertheless does what he said not to do, will he bless it?  On the other hand, His Word is inherently efficacious.  I guess I'd have to go with the other hand.  A sermon that rightly proclaims God's gospel is efficacious regardless of who preaches it, even if God told the one preaching it that she may not preach.

This was an argument made in the other direction by the Ft.Wayne faculty as regards the Eucharist in the early 90s.  I credit you with some remnant level of Greek grammar understanding in your proper use of the English "on the one hand..on the other hand", which is the extension of the Greek "men/de" comparison clause.  (At this point, I insert the link to one of the all-time country songs about temptation by unquestionably the all-time all star of country music, George Jones - this is a must listen:  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=george%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube%20videos&FORM=VIRE0&mid=E6684C5DF394954A2EE8E6684C5DF394954A2EE8&view=detail&ru=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dgeorge%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube).

Back to the topic at hand.  Luther had opined on the efficacy of the Meal that even if the Pope or a pig had consecrated Holy Communion, the Meal itself would be valid.  Our friends at the Ft. Wayne seminary, doubling down as always, indicated that the word for "pig" was not the female "sow" in German, so that Luther was not including the Eucharist as consecrated by a woman.

It stands in my mind as where crazy goes to die.

Dave Benke

Dave, I had no idea you were a country western fan!  David Benke listens to George Jones.  I can't believe it!  I'm going to have to reevaluate all the prejudices I have about you!  :)

Little known facts - West Indian people, especially East Indian West Indian people, love their Country and Western - Charlie Pride, Georges Strait and Jones, etc.  But the #1 All Time was and remains Jim Reeves, whose songs were also often Christian.  I have heard every one of them.  This morphed into Jamaican groups like The Grace Thrillers who took the praise songs in country and western and put a little back beat Caribbean thing together.  Carrie Underwood - Yes.  One of my favorites is George Jones and Vestal Goodman singing Mansion Out Over the Hilltop:  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=george%20jones%20and%20vestal%20goodman%20mansion%20out%20over%20the%20hilltop%20videos&FORM=VIRE0&mid=4F2B53FCCA018812E9434F2B53FCCA018812E943&view=detail&ru=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dgeorge%20jones%20and%20vestal%20goodman%20mansion%20out%20over%20the%20hilltop

Our church musical coordinator worked for ASCAP for years; he told me George Jones was old, old school and always recorded with the whole crew in studio.  That's why the guitar riffs and the orchestration are at a higher level, as in "Mansion."  Give me that slide guitar every time, a weeping wonder for the soul.  (Not saying the theology is at the toppest level, but still.)

Dave Benke
#29
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 10:01:13 AM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 09, 2024, 09:52:28 AMRev. Austin, God is not going to convince us that a male only pastorate is bad order because he has commanded in His holy Word that only males can serve as pastors.  Also, when a woman thinks she has a call from the Holy Spirit to be a pastor, she is wrong because the Holy Spirit says that a woman may not preach or teach in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34; 1 Timothy 2:12) But what about a woman preaching the gospel?  Is the Holy Spirit present in her preaching?  Now, that's a tough one.  We are faced with a contradiction.  On the one hand, God says don't do it.  If he says don't do it and somebody nevertheless does what he said not to do, will he bless it?  On the other hand, His Word is inherently efficacious.  I guess I'd have to go with the other hand.  A sermon that rightly proclaims God's gospel is efficacious regardless of who preaches it, even if God told the one preaching it that she may not preach.

This was an argument made in the other direction by the Ft.Wayne faculty as regards the Eucharist in the early 90s.  I credit you with some remnant level of Greek grammar understanding in your proper use of the English "on the one hand..on the other hand", which is the extension of the Greek "men/de" comparison clause.  (At this point, I insert the link to one of the all-time country songs about temptation by unquestionably the all-time all star of country music, George Jones - this is a must listen:  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=george%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube%20videos&FORM=VIRE0&mid=E6684C5DF394954A2EE8E6684C5DF394954A2EE8&view=detail&ru=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dgeorge%20jones%20on%20the%20other%20hand%20you%20tube).

Back to the topic at hand.  Luther had opined on the efficacy of the Meal that even if the Pope or a pig had consecrated Holy Communion, the Meal itself would be valid.  Our friends at the Ft. Wayne seminary, doubling down as always, indicated that the word for "pig" was not the female "sow" in German, so that Luther was not including the Eucharist as consecrated by a woman.

It stands in my mind as where crazy goes to die.

Dave Benke
#30
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 08, 2024, 05:37:06 PM
This kind of goes to what's in my head.  Looking at how I understand the Bible under the assumption God wanted to communicate what church looks like - I can see a female at every part of the service (including sermon and celebrant), just not the Overseer/admin
QUOTE
MORE...


Well, the LWML color is royal purple.  Who's going to argue that?

Dave Benke
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