Messages

16

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 18, 2023, 03:11:28 PM »

I have never demanded or even encouraged churches to publicly reject BLM. I don’t preach against it except to the degree that I preach that Christians ought not presume to know something about a person simply by assessing their skin color. Again, Dave’s criticism is projection. BLM is a secular political movement. Objecting to churches endorsing it is not the same thing as demanding churches preach against it.

 I’m fine with any theologically orthodox “black hymn” being in our hymnals. I just don’t think we should be segregated by hymnal. At the very least it amounts to the church being a “respecter of persons” by looking at people through the lens of the world rather than the church.

There is also no wholesome, salutary precedent in church history for recognizing race as a valid category of people. Language, yes. Unavoidable division if we’re going to have the Word in an intelligible way. Citizenship, yes. God has instituted secular authority and called people to honor their secular authority. Family/kinship, yes. God has established that expected us to honor those particularities. But skin color? Sorry, no. Christians have no business going by it.

You feel free to talk about the overlay or subtext of what I say. But you are consistently, almost dog-mindedly wrong.

I’m fine with any theologically orthodox “black hymn” being in our hymnals.  OK then.  But wait for it -

I just don’t think we should be segregated by hymnal. At the very least it amounts to the church being a “respecter of persons” by looking at people through the lens of the world rather than the church.  

So - you're not fine with it. 
The Church is publishing the hymnals because they are respecting the persons of that heritage/background or, yes, race.  I've had this discussion with seminary professors who in no way see the Kernlieder, both in word and melody, as having any attachment to culture.  It's as though those hymns came down directly from heaven upon orders from God, who said "Achtung."  It's Walther indicating that true theology could not be spoken clearly in English.  As a first generation ELL I'm sure that's the way he felt. 

When you say the "lens of the world" it is the world in its human dimension created by God.

I have never demanded or even encouraged churches to publicly reject BLM. I don’t preach against it except to the degree that I preach that Christians ought not presume to know something about a person simply by assessing their skin color. Again, Dave’s criticism is projection. BLM is a secular political movement. Objecting to churches endorsing it is not the same thing as demanding churches preach against it.
 

Your personalizing of this point is the expected deflection from the many who have been marching, writing, carrying out organized overtures and demands from the Gottesdienst blogosphere through the ordained leadership nationally, regionally and institutionally.  Their words and actions are public.  And they are teaching the specific rejection of any and everything connected to BLM, CRT etc.

But you are consistently, almost dog-mindedly wrong. 

In your opinion.  Which you're entitled to, and to state the obvious, you are opinionated.  In my opinion.

Dave Benke

17

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 18, 2023, 01:09:05 PM »

African-American Catholics have their own hymnic tradition, and the hymnal Lead Me, Guide Me includes a lot of it. I have sung from that hymnal for many years when I belonged to a Black Catholic parish (St. Benedict the Moor in Pittsburgh), but I am coming to realize that on this board such a parish and such church music do not exist. Who would have guessed that it would take folks from the LCMS to enlighten me?
https://www.giamusic.com/store/hymnals-lead-me-guide-me

Peace,
Michael

Hey - we use Lead Me, Guide me as the #1 follow-up to This Far by Faith.  There are several hymns/songs in there by Eddie Bonnemere, who was a jazz musician who was Lutheran and brought his gifts to St. Peter's Lutheran Citicorp in Manhattan for decades when they had a Jazz Vespers weekly.    "This is My Body" is a eucharistic effort, and "I Know Jesus" another one we often sing.  But - the entire volume, for which we paid the extra $135 to have the accompaniment edition, is very valuable to our urban mission.  We also use the other hymals in that series, but mostly Lead Me, Guide Me.  Also excellent Introit Psalm versions there and in This Far by Faith and in Lift Every Voice and Sing I and II, the Episcopal black hymnals.

In other words, Michael, the dissonance you're picking up on this part of this discussion is definitively not shared ecumenically and not shared in  the entire Missouri Synod.  Thanks for bringing up Lead Me, Guide Me.

Dave Benke

I forgot to reference what is without a doubt my second favority RC hymnal resource behind Lead Me, Guide Me, and that's Oramos Cantando.  This Sunday we'll lead with a hymn of gathering entitled De Raza, Cuna de Nacion or "Diverse in Culture, Nation, Race."  First verse as follows:
Diverse in culture, nation, race/we come together by your grace./God, let us be a meeting ground/where hope and healing love are found.
The rest are directly on point, and lead in v. 4 to the Eucharist.

Dave Benke

18

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 18, 2023, 12:00:06 PM »

Dave, do think it a wise idea to encourage and cultivate a sense of racial solidarity among Christians? What is the theological basis for your criticism of any effort to avoid doing that?

I sounds as if Gottesdienst (which I don't read) is encouraging and cultivating a sense of racial solidarity among Christians, and it sounds as if Dave Benke is against what they are doing. That answers your first question. Your second, rather convoluted, question seems to beg the question, since he is already against encouraging and cultivating a sense of racial solidarity (whatever you mean by that); in fact, he complains about it. From his description of his parish, I'd say a sense of racial solidarity is quite absent from it.

Peace,
Michael

I was asked how alt-right and ultra nationalist perspectives have infected the LCMS, in line with Mr. Beck's paper.  His thesis is that theologically an inappropriate blending and intermingling of church and state, or in Lutheran terms God's Realm of Right and Left, has taken place.  He sees the manifestation of this in the connections he has witnessed and experienced with alt-right/Christian nationalist memes and theses presented by LCMS folks as LCMS theology (immigration, race, legal partners, etc.). 

I gave just several examples of how this has played out online and in social media and in LCMS-specific publication controversies (the catechism) and institutional controversies (CUW-AA).  Your term is the promotion of "racial solidarity" as presented by (as an example) the Gottesdienst blog and leadership.  I think that's an apt term. 

Theologically it is an inappropriate mixing of God's Two Realms.  However, at a deeper level, what happens is that the theological perspective is presented in service of the political perspective.  That is what Mr. Beck has received.   And that is what is apparent to me.

The accusation at all times on this discussion board is to insist on the placing of the shoe on the other foot - if you don't publicly abhor CRT/BLM, etc. you are
a) agreeing with everything they present
b) agreeing with their "theology" or Weltanschauung
c) a reverse racist
d) an anti-racist a la Kendi
e) a believer in social justice

I don't agree with everything they present, their Weltanschauung or aspects of anti-racism.  I do believe Scripture encourages the following theologically:
a) Inclusivity under the theological truth of what we Lutherans call Objective Reconciliation
b) Diversity under the theology of baptism
c) Equity under the divine mandate to establish with God "justice and equity."
d) The full examination of racism as practiced in our denomination

However, the mandatory deflection is not even to examine whether the examples of racism couched in theological terms are racist, but to state that embracing the full counter-cultural agenda means that these examples do not matter as much as the counter-cultural battle.

So for example This Far By Faith, An African American Resource For Worship.  That's the full title of the hymnal. 
Lead Me, Guide Me, the African American Catholic Hymnal, is in its second or third manifestation, and was undertaken throughout by Wilton Cardinal Gregory, an African American Catholic leader.  Its songs, hymns, canticles, liturgies and agenda are authorized.

As This Far By Faith comes up for discussion here, the second comment is that there no such things as black hymns.  Because, stated theologically but with the counter-cultural overlay, there is no such thing as race.  Therefore either your Roman Catholic theology is weak because it states there is such a thing as an African American Catholic Hymnal, or you are in league with the Lutherans in having an African American resource. 

The first comment, however, is from LCMS perspectives the most pertinent.  This Far by Faith, although authorized for use with guidance in the LCMS, is not pure.  It has not reached the test of Doctrinally Pure Hymnal and Agenda.  It is substandard.  That is the first comment.  There is no third comment, which could have been the first comment - The LCMS has allowed an African American Resource for worship to be used with guidance.  We in the LCMS are thankful to God for it, as it assists African Americans and others to access appropriate worship resources.

That comment is not forthcoming, because to make it would be to recognize race as having validity.
Therefore, the LCMS does not use the terms diversity, equity and inclusion because although biblical they might give the perception of insufficiently entering the counter-cultural wars. 

From my perspective, this is how theology stands in service of and to the politcal/counter-cultural perspective.

Dave Benke

19

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 11:06:31 PM »

Don E. asked me back aways what alt-right and ultra-right contexts exist in the LCMS, which is the original thread topic.  The point the author of the paper made was that the evidence is overwhelming in terms of the lack of consciousness in separating out the national political from the church-political realm.  Personal connection to scare memes sent to him I think lent urgency to his creation of the paper.

For me, it's the preponderance of evidence along the way.  Attempts to disconnect the Gottesdienst blog leaders and board from the alt-right white (Christian in terms of attending LCMS congregations) nationalists fail miserably.  It has been plain on Gottesdienst for a long time that the subtext is racial - that's where a chunk of the targets landed by their authors in calling on the Synodical President to stop the presses.  Which he did, and then undid.  At the same time, the twitterverse articulators against the catechism were using the same targets thinking, apparently, that this was the acceptable LCMS discourse, since a clergy-wider church leadership-dominated group was propounding them.  The Gottesdiensters also blogged about keeping the Confederate Flag and not calling for its disuse, as another example.  The calling out specifically of Lutheran for Racial Justice in district convention overtures for being Marxists and therefore removable from the LCMS roster has been another example.

This followed the mostly clergy-led "anti-woke" marches at CUW-AA, and the explosive charges made by the professor who felt his name shouldn't have been removed from consideration for the presidency of that institution.  And although folks who teach at those institutions made it clear that there was no "woke" revolution happening on those campuses, an investigation took place anyway.  Lots of the ire surrounded even having a Black Student Union, among other things, or even using the words Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Synodical college campuses. 

At the same time, books, pamphlets, convention overtures and resolutions at the district and now the national level claim to descry racism without ever giving an example while excoriating anything even close to speaking about Critical Race Theory or Black Lives Matter, for two.  In fact a significant percentage of the workshops at the national Evangelism Outreach program called Making Disciples For Life last fall dealt with coming against Critical Race Theory.  Given the fact that under 4% of the membership of the denomination is non-white, that emphasis can only be seen not just as useless but as fear-mongering.  This effort is led by professors at the seminaries and other synodical leaders.

White and Christian Nationalism are not hard to connect to the LCMS DNA at this time.  There are many more such examples.  The man who wrote the paper invited its readers not to be distracted, but to see the underlying theological crisis in failing to separate God's Realm of the Right from the Realm of the Left.

Dave Benke

20

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 04:23:57 PM »

African-American Catholics have their own hymnic tradition, and the hymnal Lead Me, Guide Me includes a lot of it. I have sung from that hymnal for many years when I belonged to a Black Catholic parish (St. Benedict the Moor in Pittsburgh), but I am coming to realize that on this board such a parish and such church music do not exist. Who would have guessed that it would take folks from the LCMS to enlighten me?
https://www.giamusic.com/store/hymnals-lead-me-guide-me

Peace,
Michael

Hey - we use Lead Me, Guide me as the #1 follow-up to This Far by Faith.  There are several hymns/songs in there by Eddie Bonnemere, who was a jazz musician who was Lutheran and brought his gifts to St. Peter's Lutheran Citicorp in Manhattan for decades when they had a Jazz Vespers weekly.    "This is My Body" is a eucharistic effort, and "I Know Jesus" another one we often sing.  But - the entire volume, for which we paid the extra $135 to have the accompaniment edition, is very valuable to our urban mission.  We also use the other hymals in that series, but mostly Lead Me, Guide Me.  Also excellent Introit Psalm versions there and in This Far by Faith and in Lift Every Voice and Sing I and II, the Episcopal black hymnals.

In other words, Michael, the dissonance you're picking up on this part of this discussion is definitively not shared ecumenically and not shared in  the entire Missouri Synod.  Thanks for bringing up Lead Me, Guide Me.

Dave Benke

21

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 02:14:08 PM »

Just one symptom of alt-right tendency in the LCMS is the long ago declining to endorse This Far By Faith, the hymnal of Black Lutherans. Of course many congregations still use it which also suggests an erosion of synodical influence.

Peace, JOHN

"The hymnal of Black Lutherans" is simply a schismatic, segregationist label. Is LSB for Black Lutherans? Or is it the designated White hymnal? I can see Lutherans having different hymnals for people who speak different languages, but it is contrary to the Gospel to have different hymnals for different skin colors. I think St. Paul would "oppose you to your face" if you introduced the idea of "the hymnal of Black Lutherans" in his presence.

Why have Lutheran hymnals then? Aren't all God's children part of one holy catholic and apostolic church?

Lutheran hymnals (at least ours, ymmv) contain hymns written by people from many denominations, and liturgies that are ancient. LSB would be a great hymnal for all English-speaking Christians to use.

The same can be said of This Far By Faith and LBW, which are Lutheran hymnals. 

To Brian, there have been long discussions through the decades on how to interpret the LCMS constitution on "exclusive use of doctrinally pure hymnals and agendas," which devolve into what additional songs/hymns/liturgies can be used in an LCMS congregation without church discipline being threatened or carried out against workers or congregations.  I'm not up to speed on it any more.   

Dave Benke

22

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 12:15:36 PM »

Used “with guidance” is to admit that it fails the Constitution test: “exclusive use of doctrinally pure Agenda and hymn books.” Unless you think that exclusively doctrinally pure material requires guidance in use! And, of course, the LCMS participation in the putting together of material has never guaranteed that what was put together would pass LCMS doctrinal norms: LBW? Welcome to Christ?

I think you think you're making a point.  The point I'm making is that the LCMS has indeed approved the hymnal for use with guidance, and many of our multi-cultural and Black congregations are using This Far By Faith with guidance.  The point you end up making is not simply that the hymnal failed, during the Barry administration, the purity clause.  Instead, you're indicating to me as a pastor of a congregation made up overwhelmingly (although not "exclusively) of black and brown members is that we're impure.  You could back away from that and say with us, "Thank God we have This Far By Faith.  It's beneficial to the faithful."  That's my invitation to you.

Dave Benke

23

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 11:59:16 AM »

John,

That is the most breathtakingly ignorant statement I have read on this board. And that’s saying a lot! But not at all what I expect from you. Our constitution’s requirement of “exclusive use of doctrinally pure agenda and hymnbooks” is what excluded that volume from endorsement.

The LCMS participated in the preparation of This Far By Faith all along the way.  In the end, however, it was approved for use with guidance at an LCMS convention (1998?), but not as an official hymnal of the LCMS.  To state the case as simply as you have, Will, is to give the impression that the hymnal cannot be used in the LCMS, which is not the case. 

The person in front of me on line at that convention spoke passionately about NOT allowing the hymnal to be used with guidance.  The next speaker, an African American woman delegate, said "Thank you, Missouri Synod, for giving us this hymnal to use!".  The next speaker called the question, so I didn't get to speak my peace.  The motion passed by a super majority of voters.  The speaker passionately against the use of the hymnal with guidance was at the time a Ft. Wayne Seminary professor, who is now a media influencer and teacher with 1517. 

This hymnal is a great resource for the congregation I serve, and for many in multi-cultural and black ministry.

Dave Benke

24

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 17, 2023, 09:53:14 AM »

Having read the paper, the author came across to me as a conservative Lutheran from the Missouri Synod who's alarmed by the connections to alt-right and far right political actors and institutions under the heading of Christian nationalism and white nationalism.  He speaks from personal experience, has done his homework, knows our denominational history, and is understanding of LCMS theology.

Having followed the extend of those thought patterns into our institutional settings and expressions by the leadership from seminary to synodical praesidium to district convention overtures and resolutions to the national level in preparation for its convention, I share his concern. 

Deflecting that concern will be the task of those interested in continuing the directions already being taken.  Deflecting the methods that blur the church-state distinction to the point of obliteration on issues taking the denomination down the alt-right/far right path will present a monumental theological challenge.  Because we've long since left the territory of reasonable discourse in the Missouri Synod.

Dave Benke

25

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 16, 2023, 06:47:45 PM »

The topic is of interest to me, Jim, because it boils down to Law/Gospel and the Two Realms in terms of theology.  As much as the ELCA may be perceived to be or in fact be captive to culture, the LCMS has taken positions that lead to at the very least the perception that it is captive to the counter culture.  The one is seen as the progressive wing of the Democratic Party at prayer, the other as the Trump/right wing of the Republican party at prayer.   The recent incursion by white Christian nationalists was illustrative to me of that perception moving through time in the LCMS, along with the anti-woke segment of clergy who stopped the presses at CUW-AA, and the bloggers from Gottesdienst who enabled it all.  It's hard not to have that impression.

The separation of the national LCMS from integral connection with LWR, LSA and LIRS through The Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty is also illustrative.  The national church body used to be present and active across the board, from Life issues to human care and social justice.  That's no longer the case. 

So I'd be interested in what the brother is talking about.

Dave Benke

I forwarded it to your AOL address.

Thanks, Jim - have read and commented to you.  Here's an excerpt from an editorial in today's New York Times about Christian nationalism and the Republican party:  - “If we are going to have one nation under God, which we must, we have to have one religion,” Flynn said at a 2021 ReAwaken America event. “One nation under God and one religion under God, right?  A major question for Republicans in 2024 is whether this militant version of Christian nationalism — one often rooted in Pentecostalism, with its emphasis on prophecy and revelation — can overcome the qualms of more mainstream evangelicals.

The issue isn’t whether the next Republican presidential candidate is going to be a Christian nationalist, meaning someone who rejects the separation of church and state and treats Christianity as the foundation of American identity and law. That’s a foregone conclusion in a party whose state lawmakers are falling over themselves to pass book bans, abortion prohibitions, anti-trans laws and, in Texas, bills authorizing school prayer and the posting of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. 

What’s not yet clear, though, is what sort of Christian nationalism will prevail — the elite, doctrinaire variety of candidates like Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida or the violently messianic version embodied by Flynn and Trump.


The paper you received lifts up the Synod's connections at the high and middle levels of governance to the Alliance Defending Freedom.  Its connections to the Michael Flynn and more Pentecostal/prophetic versions of Christianity as the one religion in the land are clear, and violate not only Lutheran theology but, as contained in the letter from James Madison to St. Matthew Lutheran in Manhattan almost two centuries ago, violate the standard under which the United States Constitution and Amendments were written (interestingly - Luther's Two Kingdoms!).  The current LCMS in my opinion has clearly steered toward both Christian nationalism and white nationalism (viz the catechism controversy). 

I haven't finished looking at the convention workbook, but most likely the floor committees will struggle not to continue the cave-in to those ultra-nationalist leanings, because they've been incorporated into practice already.

Dave Benke

26

Your Turn / Re: LCMS Dystopian Future

« on: May 16, 2023, 04:39:48 PM »

The topic is of interest to me, Jim, because it boils down to Law/Gospel and the Two Realms in terms of theology.  As much as the ELCA may be perceived to be or in fact be captive to culture, the LCMS has taken positions that lead to at the very least the perception that it is captive to the counter culture.  The one is seen as the progressive wing of the Democratic Party at prayer, the other as the Trump/right wing of the Republican party at prayer.   The recent incursion by white Christian nationalists was illustrative to me of that perception moving through time in the LCMS, along with the anti-woke segment of clergy who stopped the presses at CUW-AA, and the bloggers from Gottesdienst who enabled it all.  It's hard not to have that impression.

The separation of the national LCMS from integral connection with LWR, LSA and LIRS through The Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty is also illustrative.  The national church body used to be present and active across the board, from Life issues to human care and social justice.  That's no longer the case. 

So I'd be interested in what the brother is talking about.

Dave Benke

27

Your Turn / Re: In Praise of God: CSL's New Stained Glass Windows

« on: May 15, 2023, 12:35:14 PM »

Great pic Will!

To speak charitably of the new windows...they are windows. They keep out the elements. They have images you can look at.

I don't care for them, though I believe I knew back in the late 90s that this day was coming. The huge panes of glass was just begging for a donor to pony up the cash to put in stained glass. And I also believed that the window of St. Timothy and St. Titus would remain in place, since after all it was The Chapel of St. Timothy and St. Titus.

Now it is the Chapel of the Highest Bidder. Why not put the new windows in another building, or on the sides of the Nave and leave the chancel area alone?

And what happened to the original windows? They were taken down to be restored and then put back up? But that has been years now. Are they now in storage at the National Archives  between the Ark of the Covenant and the flight manifesto of all those who rode Jeffrey Epstein's Lolita Express?

In closing, the windows are there. They are okay. It's real disingenuous to have the Chapel of St. Timothy and St. Titus with no imagery regarding them.

Jeremy

The Chapel of the Highest Bidder is very nice.  As one who worshiped at the selfsame seminary in The Old Chapel, which was an auditorium, it is in my opinion a great thing to have the St. Timothy and Titus sanctuary for use and for practice of the liturgy.  Having presided over the Lutheran Ministry at the United States Military Academy at West Point, the comparisons are apt.  The Old Cadet Chapel was erected in 1836 and still houses the Lutheran worship (which is under LCMS auspices):  https://www.westpoint.edu/about/chaplain/chapels/old-cadet-chapel.  In point of fact, the first ordination in remembrance took place around ten years ago as I perforemd the service of ordination for Rev. Martin Tyce, who had been the leader of the brass section of the US Military Band, and is now a Circuit Visitor.  The Cadet Chapel is quite different and on a really grand scale: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/The_Cadet_Chapel/home.html.  This includes the largest chapel organ on our planet. 

We held the 100th Anniversary Eucharist of the Atlantic District there for 2000 people in 2006.  It was truly a Foretaste of the Feast to Come.  We could not have done that in the Old Cadet Chapel. 

For non-Missouri Synod folks who look in, our rules of conduct do not allow either seminary, even with a Dean of Chapel, to have congregational status, even though there is a distinct worshiping community and more worship services conducted than at probably 99% of all LCMS churches on a weekly basis.  So it has been.  So it will always be.

Dave Benke

28

Your Turn / Re: What a Wonderful, Blessed Day!

« on: May 14, 2023, 06:45:40 PM »

Wonderful day in Brooklyn celebrating Mother's Day on the 6th Sunday of Easter.  I've been out of town for awhile visiting brothers and fellow pastors Mike and Bob and their wives, plus dealing with some health issues.  Thankfully we're blessed with two Vicars/pending Associate Pastors.   Lots of singing, including a couple of special numbers, presentations of all kinds, a testimony at the end of the service, closing hymn an Andrae Crouch classic, "Through It All."   And way, way lots of incredible food including some of my favorites, pholourie and barah along with spicy lo mein and fried pork, all served by, although not made by, the men.  Plus a delayed birthday cake for me.  Nothing wrong with food fellowship!

Last night one of our young members, Nick Fanara, whose family has a long LCMS history through the Boeck family of Milwaukee (his mom, Annette Boeck Fanara), presented a piano concert for young artists available at this link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNm6FG9hOk&t=615s.   Bach, Beethoven (Waldstein Sonata) and all twenty four Chopin Preludes.  The camera positions are incredible to the extent that Nick's amazing keyboard gifts are fully visible. 

Dave Benke

29

Your Turn / Re: A different take on the guns and schools debate

« on: May 11, 2023, 02:02:35 PM »

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don’t have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don’t want if it doesn’t pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don’t want. They only don’t want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today’s very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

I agree.  A very conservative Republican who I knew, who is intimately involved in the trucking industry, told me that if you removed every illegal immigrant in the US, we would run out of food in two weeks.

What I can't understand is that, given that fact, our elected leaders have yet to find a way for those necessary workers to enter into our country and remain here legally.  Well, I actually do.  It's a charade played on us by our elected leaders. 

One side pretends that it wants to end illegal immigration.  It doesn't.  It wants people to come into our country illegally, rather than legally, so they can be exploited economically and politically.   The other side pretends that it wants to welcome immigrants and migrant workers into our county.  It does and it doesn't.  I wants people to come into our country, but to do so illegally, so that they can be exploited economically and politically.

A real solution would involve changing our laws so that the people who are necessary for our economy to function wouldn't have to live in fear.  Unfortunately, our elected leaders have too much to gain by changing nothing.

Last sentence says it all.  I have participated in legislative days on behalf of LIRS, Lutheran Services in America and Lutheran World Relief many, many times.  What is done is that those who agree to come to the nation's capitol go through a workshop on issues of importance and then head off to those very large office buildings housing senators and congressmen.  Some serious walking is involved.  And invariably the meeting ends, on either side of the aisle, with - "I doubt we can get anything done in this legislative session, but our hopes are high for next fall."

One time the event was structured to involve LCMS legislators, so we met at the Republican Club, hosted by one of our congressional occupants.   Same ending to the meeting as above, but an honest dialog took place in between.

Dave Benke

30

Your Turn / Re: A different take on the guns and schools debate

« on: May 11, 2023, 10:40:12 AM »

There is dignity in work, and the worker is worthy of his wages. The Third World standard directly competing with the American standard of living is what people object to. But I’ll remember your point about how dehumanizing it is to argue against the “right to work” and for deliberate upward pressure on unskilled or semi-skilled labor wages. It sounds at least Red State-adjacent.

I’m for (legal) immigration on a massive scale because I think the imminent aging, then cratering of the population portends disaster. But many people I regularly converse with vehemently disagree. They  point out that it is easy for me to support immigration; it has no adverse effect of any kind on my salary or way of life. It unarguably has a huge adverse effect on many people’s salary and way of life.

Happy to hear you're for massive increase in immigration and a pathway to citizenship for those millions of folks.  That's always been a Republican party shibboleth because of a fear that those immigrants will be voting on the Democratic line.  I believe that not automatically to be the case, because if there were a Republican party functioning on family values it would be attractive to the great majority of those immigrants, who are here to further their families' welfare and opportunity.  The national leader of the Republican party presents an entirely different message.

The New York miracle that took place after we went bankrupt in the 70s was due in large part to - immigrants, many many of whom moved to Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx, often to sketchy neighborhoods and who took the entrance level essential jobs that allowed their families to flourish.  In fact, a group close to my heart, the Guyanese, proved to be so hard working in Queens that the mayor of Schenectady, seeking to rebuild a devastated city after the corporate move-out of General Electric, invited and actually brought busloads of Guyanese up there to start a new life with very affordable inner city property available.  They did so and guess what?  Same result.  We sent a Guyanese, and more recently an African, pastor up there to take parishes with that opportunity for outreach. 

Dave Benke

I just