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Messages - DCharlton

#1
Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 15, 2024, 10:23:17 AM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 15, 2024, 08:21:50 AM
Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 14, 2024, 02:08:19 PMWho is condemning gender nonconformists? I know I don't. You don't condemn someone for mental illness.
\

If the standard for mental illness is the DSM-V, gender nonconforming is not a mental illness and to suggest otherwise is judgmental.

I love watching folks like you embrace the literal interpretation of documents like the DSM while castigating people for their fundamentalist reading of the Bible. You're just a different type of fundie.

Or to paraphrase Luther, "Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals can err."  Afterall, if a previous DSM declared being gender nonconforming to be a mental illness, then at least one of them has erred. 
#2
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 09:51:35 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 07:28:51 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 04:27:57 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 03:35:17 PMThis goes back to a question that Charles asked early one, insinuating that people like me would oppose gender affirming care regardless of whether the person was a minor.  I replied that it is not so.  I told him that I  have not desire to prevent adults from choosing chemical and surgical therapy if they choose. 

According to the guidelines that I posted, gender affirming care includes both mental health and medical care.  It involves the patient and, in the case of minors, the family.  As I noted, it is deliberative and progressive, minimizing the potential for performing irreversible care for patients who might later regret the treatment.  And, surgery is not performed on minors and appropriate referrals from both mental health professionals and from a physician qualified to provide hormonal care.

You may not agree that this is appropriate medical care.  But, there is nothing whimsical about the care that is provided by competent professionals.

More argument by non-sequitur.  Nothing that you posted has any relevance to my reply to Charles. 

The point is that minors can't give consent for gender affirming surgery if the surgeon performing the surgery follows the guidelines that I posted because that surgeon would not perform that surgery on a minor.

And it does not refute my reply to Charles, which had to do with what my position was. To reply by telling me what position a third party holds in no way refutes what I said.  The only thing that would refute what I stated would be to show proof that I don't truly hold that position.   You have not given any such evidence.

I will illustrate what I mean:
Charles says, "I bet you believe A."
I reply, "Not so.  I believe B."
You say, "Liar, the medical standards say C."

If the medical standards say C, it does not follow that I don't believe B.  When I call your reply a non-sequitur, I mean to say that it does not follow.
#3
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 04:27:57 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 03:35:17 PMThis goes back to a question that Charles asked early one, insinuating that people like me would oppose gender affirming care regardless of whether the person was a minor.  I replied that it is not so.  I told him that I  have not desire to prevent adults from choosing chemical and surgical therapy if they choose. 

According to the guidelines that I posted, gender affirming care includes both mental health and medical care.  It involves the patient and, in the case of minors, the family.  As I noted, it is deliberative and progressive, minimizing the potential for performing irreversible care for patients who might later regret the treatment.  And, surgery is not performed on minors and appropriate referrals from both mental health professionals and from a physician qualified to provide hormonal care.

You may not agree that this is appropriate medical care.  But, there is nothing whimsical about the care that is provided by competent professionals.

More argument by non-sequitur.  Nothing that you posted has any relevance to my reply to Charles. 
#4
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 02:48:16 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 01:41:29 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 12:37:26 PMIn addition, I think of whether amputating a healthy and functional organ to replace it with a prosthetic organ is a philosophical/ethical question, not a medical question.  I have no desire to prevent you from amputating a part of your body if you want to, as long a you can find a medical professional who would agree to do so.  I don't think a minor is capable of consenting to such a procedure.

I think the only gender-affirming surgery that uses prosthetics would be breast augmentation.  And, I'm pretty sure that performing gender-affirming surgery on a minor is outside the standard protocol.

I don't believe either statement is true. 

You can easily fact check both. 

Here is a copy of the standards of care that are followed by the physicians who are best qualified to perform gender affirming surgeries.  Note that protocol for treating children and teens is holistic, very deliberative and progressive.  This approach retains the opportunity for reversal at each step, prior to surgery and surgery is only performed on patients who have reached their legal majority.

https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English.pdf

If you are so inclined, you can do your own search regarding the procedures for phalloplasty and vaginoplasty and phalloplasty.  If you find them, please point out where either procedure requires a prosthesis.

I'm sorry, my pedantic interlocutor.  I misspoke.  I conflated the term prosthetic with .....plasty.  So let me rephrase what I said:

In addition, I think of whether amputating a healthy and functional organ to replace it with an organ [constructed out of other body parts that is not fully functional]is a philosophical/ethical question, not a medical question.

Regarding whether gender affirming surgery has ever been done in the US on minors, that is beside the point.  The question was whether a minor should be able to make the decision to have it done, i.e. whether a minor can give consent.  This goes back to a question that Charles asked early on in which he insinuated that people like me would oppose gender affirming care regardless of whether the person was a minor.  I replied that it is not so.  I told him that I  have no desire to prevent adults from choosing chemical and surgical therapy if they choose. 
#5
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 12, 2024, 01:41:29 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 12, 2024, 12:37:26 PMIn addition, I think of whether amputating a healthy and functional organ to replace it with a prosthetic organ is a philosophical/ethical question, not a medical question.  I have no desire to prevent you from amputating a part of your body if you want to, as long a you can find a medical professional who would agree to do so.  I don't think a minor is capable of consenting to such a procedure.

I think the only gender-affirming surgery that uses prosthetics would be breast augmentation.  And, I'm pretty sure that performing gender-affirming surgery on a minor is outside the standard protocol.

I don't believe either statement is true. 
#6
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 12, 2024, 01:26:22 PMConversion therapy isn't the same thing.  There's no grounds for it to be used in any circumstances.  Simple as that. 

Still changing the argument, I see.  Let me restate what I said, for the third(?) time. 

You apparently believe that there are some circumstances when hormone therapy, puberty blockers, or the removal of healthy reproductive organs brings healing in some cases.  Whether I agree with you or not, I have no desire to prevent you from choosing to undergo any of those therapies.  However, I do not think that a minor can truly consent to such procedures.  The level of their brain development, combined with the level of psychological and social development, prevent them from fully understanding the irreversible consequences of those procedures. 

Regarding conversion therapy, it is not necessary for you and I to agree that it NEVER works or that it ALWAYS causes harm.  I agree that minors should not be permitted to consent to such "therapy". 

Where you and I disagree this:

1.  You believe that adults should be prevented from undergoing conversion therapy, even if they want to do so, but free to choose gender reassignment surgery.
2.  I believe that adults should be free to choose to undergo conversion therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

My position that would require minors to wait until adulthood to undergo potentially harmful procedures, is consistent.
Your position of prohibiting minors from undergoing potentially harmful therapeutic interventions, but allowing them to choose irreversible and life altering surgery does not seem consistent to me.
#7
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 09:23:21 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 

Well, in that case, your reply to me was a non-sequitur.  I was talking about minors. 

not really, because conversion therapy is harmful across the board.  not the same thing
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 09:23:21 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 

Well, in that case, your reply to me was a non-sequitur.  I was talking about minors. 

not really, because conversion therapy is harmful across the board.  not the same thing

I made a comparison.  You said it was not an appropriate comparison.  I showed you that it was an appropriate comparison.  You then defended your assertion with a non-sequitur.  When I pointed that out, you replied with a different objection.  That doesn't make your original objection any less of a non-sequitur. So I will repeat, I object to hormone therapy and gender transition therapy for minors, for the same reason that I object to conversion therapy for minors. 

As to whether conversion therapy is always harmful, while hormone therapy and gender transition therapy is not, I don't think there is sufficient data to justify your assertion.  In addition, I think of whether amputating a healthy and functional organ to replace it with a prosthetic organ is a philosophical/ethical question, not a medical question.  I have no desire to prevent you from amputating a part of your body if you want to, as long a you can find a medical professional who would agree to do so.  I don't think a minor is capable of consenting to such a procedure.
#8
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 

Well, in that case, your reply to me was a non-sequitur.  I was talking about minors. 
#9
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet. 
#10
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one were opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery for minors. 

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.   On the other hand, I do not believe that minors are capable of fully understanding the irreversible consequences of undergoing hormone therapy and surgery.  Plus, there is the danger of Munchausen by Proxy. 
#11
Your Turn / Re: White for Easter?
April 03, 2024, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: MaddogLutheran on April 03, 2024, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 03, 2024, 01:39:26 PMI'm sure that will be on the agenda before 2030.  Some Lutheran clergy have started wearing what they call a "black alb" instead of a "white alb".
Started?  Aren't you talking about going back to the future with the Geneva gown?  :o

Either the Geneva gown or something called a "cassock".  Apparently, Lutheran pastors once wore those.
#12
Your Turn / Re: White for Easter?
April 03, 2024, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 03, 2024, 10:41:14 AMIn one of those random thoughts that pop up from time to time, it occurred to me that if we want to be in tune with the culture in which we are embedded, we maybe should reconsider using white as the liturgical color for Easter, or using white at all as a liturgical color since white has become the symbol of all that is wrong with American culture. Our society is to be purged of the evil of whiteness and here we are flaunting it, even in the ELCA and LCMS who are two of the three least racially diverse and whitest church bodies in the US. White is the symbol of racism, colonialism, white supremacy, and a host of other evils. Perhaps we could replace white as a liturgical color with a nice lavender or maybe aqua.

I'm sure that will be on the agenda before 2030.  Some Lutheran clergy have started wearing what they call a "black alb" instead of a "white alb". 
#13
Your Turn / Re: A Blessed Triduum
March 29, 2024, 03:22:52 PM
Don,

Thank you for that edifying devotion for Good Friday.

David Charlton
#14
Quote from: John Mundinger on March 28, 2024, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: DCharlton on March 28, 2024, 11:47:10 AMI know you would.  However, if we only protest against the use of the Bible for ideological purposes when we disagree with the ideology, we are hypocrites.  At the present time, I am against both the misappropriation of the Bible by MAGA and DEI/CRT ideology.  So I have not difficulty rejecting those.  The problem is making sure I don't misuse the Bible for a political movement that I agree with.

Please explain how the Bible has been misappropriated when used to declare that God love all persons and that God's love is unconditional.

It hasn't. 
#15
I know you would.  However, if we only protest against the use of the Bible for ideological purposes when we disagree with the ideology, we are hypocrites.  At the present time, I am against both the misappropriation of the Bible by MAGA and DEI/CRT ideology.  So I have not difficulty rejecting those.  The problem is making sure I don't misuse the Bible for a political movement that I agree with.

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