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Messages - Norman Teigen

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1651
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: October 05, 2012, 07:07:45 AM »
Dear Pastor, I think that your use of the word 'tyrannis' and 'tyrant' is excessive.  I think that the point to be made here  is that well-meaning and sincere Christian people would have their views on this secular topic become binding in matters of faith and life.   The inclusion of secular matters into  an expression of Church doctrine and practice is a very serious matter. 

Tyranny?  Really, Pastor.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1652
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: October 04, 2012, 04:56:29 PM »
The Lutheran Confessions teach,  Dear Pastor Tibbetts, Non igitur commiscendoe sunt potestates ecclesiastica et civilis:  ecclesiastica suum mandatum habet Evangelii docendi et administrandi Sacramenta.  Non irrumpat in alienum officium, non transferat regna mundi, non abroget leges magistratum, non tollat legitimam obedientum, non impediat judicia de ullis civilibus ordinationibus aut contractibus, non proescribat leges magistrabibus de forma rei publicoe; sicut dicit Christus (John xviii. 36): Regnum meum non est de noc mundo,' Item  (Luke xii.14): 'Quis constituit me judicem aut divisorem super vos?'  Et Paul ait (Phil. iii.20): 'Nostra politia in coelis est.'  2 Cor. x.4: 'Arma militia nostrae non sunt carnalia, sed potentia Dei, ad destruendas cogitationes,' etc.  Ad hunc modum discernunt nostri utriusque potestatis officia, et jubent utramque honore officere et agnoscere, utramque Dei donum et beneficium esse.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical LutheranSynod

1653
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: October 04, 2012, 09:26:39 AM »
You would impose a burden on one's conscience that is not supportable. 

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

1654
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:58:01 AM »
I thought that the perceptive and well read participants in this forum would find this piece from this morning's New York Times to be of interest.

I have felt for some time that the argument that the health care ruling constituted an assault on religious liberty to be a bogus argument.  Sadly, in my opinion,  many good Lutherans have joined into this almost unending chorus of fear mongering.  The President of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod unwittingly allied himself with an opportunistic Republican politician in a Washington congressional hearing.  The Indiana seminary of the same synod likened this leader and this appearance  to Martin Luther at Worms in 1521.  The Lutheran Hour tapped into the frenzy to fund a special on the Fox Business Network.  There was no end to this sort of thing.  Many conservative Lutherans were swept along, some, a few of us, spoke up.   

Now, a ruling by Judge Carol Jackson, from St. Louis coincidentally has put the issue into proper perspective.   The Times editorial states it well:  " The 1993 statute [the Religious Freedom Restoration Act] 'is not a means to force one's religious practices upon others' and 'does not protect against the slight burden on religious exercise that arises when one's money circuitously flows to support the conduct of other free-exercise-wielding individuals who hold religious beliefs that differ from one's own.' "

The war is over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/opinion/contraception-and-religious-liberty.html?ref=opinion

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1655
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 28, 2012, 07:44:48 AM »
Yes, Mankato.   Mankato is the site of the headquarters of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  A member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee is running for Congress in the First District.  This candidate, and his finance chairman, also a member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee,  have been successful in incorporating the candidate's political platform into the little synod's program.    Here is an update on the progress of Allen Quist's campaign as reported by the New Ulm Journal.  http://www.nujournal.com/page/content.detail/id/531419/Walz--Quist-clash-in-first-debate.html?nav=5009

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1656
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 26, 2012, 09:46:19 AM »
That seems like a stretch.   

1657
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 26, 2012, 09:26:23 AM »
I am not a scientist.  I defer to others who know more about science and biology than I do.   

1658
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 26, 2012, 09:05:01 AM »
It seems to me that if there has been  no fertilization, then there is no abortion.   

Might others agree that the term 'abortifacient' has been much misused in the long discussion of the Affordable Care Act?   I suggest that in the discussion abortifacient is a term that has been misapplied, misused, and used to stir up faithful Christians on a political crusade.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

I have just recently been authorized by the ELS to list myself as an official spokesman for the  little synod.

1659
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 26, 2012, 09:01:00 AM »
I found this on a source Medicinenet.com

Abortifacient: A medication or substance that causes pregnancy to end prematurely
Source: MedicineNet
Plan B
...the process of ovulation. It may also interfere with fertilization or implantation. It is not effective once implantation has begun. It is not an abortifacient. Common side effects include nausea,
Source: MedicineNet
Fire, St. Anthony's
...contract. The ergotamines have been much used (and been very useful) for the treatment of migraine. They have also been used (and misused) as abortifacients (agents of abortion). In excess,
Source: MedicineNet
Ergotism
...to contract. They have been much used and been very useful for the treatment of migraine. They have also been used and misused as abortifacients (agents of abortion). In excess, however,
Source: MedicineNet

1660
Your Turn / Re: Abortion and Politics
« on: September 26, 2012, 08:53:58 AM »
That seems to be a stretch.  I don't think that very many people would agree with that.  Abortifacient seems to be a buzz word and should probably not be used in discourse.

1661
Your Turn / Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« on: September 09, 2012, 05:30:40 PM »
Varia - Thoughts on a Sunday

1.  President Harrison originally declared that the LC-MS Concordia plans were not covered by the ACA Mandate.  His interest, therefore, is wider than his own church body.  His actions are reminiscent of church people going on crusade.

2.  The Epistle lesson from my church was Ephesians 6:10-20.  Paul wrote that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."   From this I conclude that the enemies of the church are not necessarily Kathleen Sebelius, the Affordable Care Act, the Democratic Party, or even the President of the United States, Barack Obama.

"Our struggle (Paul said) is not against flesh and blood..." Mein Reich ist nicht von dieser Welt.

3.  The Gospel lesson,(and the sermon text) was  Mark 7:1-8; 14,15, 21-23.  The problem of the Pharisees was that they wanted to tangibilize the intangible.  Religion does not consist of making the opinions of humans and political platforms and human agendas into obligatory actions, nor does the condemnation of human programs  and political platforms and human agendas make a church body faithful to its calling.

4.  I do not possess the secret knowledge that the honorable Ohio Deaconess claims to possess.  I have read (in translation) "Erkenntnis und Propaganda," Signale der Neuen Zeit, 25 ausgewahlte Reden von Dr. Joseph Goebbels (Munich: Zentralverlaqg der NSDAP., NSDAP., 1934), pp. 28-52.  Perhaps if I could read more I could achieve the exalted state of understanding in which she lives.

5.  While it is certain that:  1) the Hyde Amendment has failed   2) SCOTUS has ruled that the ACA is not unconstitutional, it is not certain that: 1) the religious freedom cases will prevail in court, and    2) that the Republican nominee for POTUS will win the election, and  3) the incumbent President will be voted out of office. 

6.  Should the election and the court cases go against those who protest that religious freedoms are being threatened, what might these persons and institutions have to say?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1662
Your Turn / Re: The Intersecion of Church and State
« on: September 09, 2012, 08:47:23 AM »
This is an amazing piece of political propaganda and historical distortion that is being peddled by a respectable Lutheran church.

Should individual Christian consciences be bound by such proclamations?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Jesus said:  Mein Reich ist nicht von dieser Welt.

1663
Your Turn / Re: Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day
« on: August 24, 2012, 01:25:30 PM »
RE #141   The Evangelical Lutheran Synod has, regrettably, gotten into this mess.  One reason for this is that an extreme right-wing member of the ELS is running for Congress in the First Minnesota District.  This man is also on the ELS Doctrinal Committee.  This man's financial director is a member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee.  This candidate's pastor is the secretary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  The similarities between the candidate's public comments and the ELS Proclamation on the subject are remarkably similar.   It is not a good thing when a church body embraces partisan secular politics. 

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1664
The ludicrous left and the religious right would both secularize the message of the church.   What is new in this discussion, I think, is how in this year the religious right's message has become mixed in with the political right's message.  In my previously cited example of the ELS member who is running for Congress in the 1st Minnesota Congressional District, whose pastor is the secretary of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and of whom Michelle Bachmann is a major fund raiser, is on the ELS Doctrinal Committee and his views, political views to be sure, are stated as the policy of the synod.   

As stated,  the church would bind the consciences of the faithful to this secular political message.   This binding of the conscience to a secular matter is clearly in conflict with the Confessions of the Lutheran Church.   All of the conservative Lutheran synods attempt to bind the consciences of their members to the issues of Darrell (Issa), Cardinal Dolan, and James Dobson.   

The defenders of these sorts of message would argue that they are not binding the consciences of the faithful, they are only pointing out to the faithful the dangers of the secular age in which we live.   What arrogance!   Can the people of the United States not make up their own minds about the wisdom of political and secular matters?  Does a secular issue trump the more important issue of Lutheran Confessional integrity? 

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod


1665
Here is an important link to the discussion.  The writer contends that the religious right has destroyed the Republican Party.  The influence of the religious right among the conservative Lutheran synods is, I think, apparent to all.  http://www.salon.com/2012/08/05/republicans_slouching_toward_theocracy/

The antidote for this foolishness for confessing Lutherans are the very words and example of Christ himself.  Yesterday my pastor preached an outstanding sermon on the attempts of those who would make Christ  an earthly king.   The pastor very ably pointed out that Christ would have none of this and that he "withdrew."    Mein Reich ist nice von dieser Welt; ware mein Reich von dieser Welt, meine Diener wurden darob kampfen, dass icy den Juden night uperantwortet wurde! aber, nun ist mein Reich nicht von dannen.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

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