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Your Turn / Re: New CPH Large Catechism
« on: Yesterday at 11:52:33 PM »I take Rev. Preus' point to be that seminary instructors hold an office of the Word and receive a formal call to that office, to publicly instruct on behalf of the Church. They are "officially" speaking/teaching for the Church. Not so when a mother teaches her child, or Priscilla teaches Apollos.
Steve, just so I understand what you believe, would you be OK with a deaconess teaching/talking about God's Word with men in her home? Unless I misunderstand Rolf, he seems to think that this would be wrong whereas I would see this as the same as what Priscilla did with Apollos.
As for a woman sharing her insights from Scripture with men in a classroom, I just don't see that as much different than what Priscilla did with Apollos. Preaching from pulpit in the Divine Service is another issue.
Again, I encourage you to call a spade a spade. You use the words "sharing her insights from Scripture with men in a classroom." Is this how you describe the teaching of a theological professor at a seminary? Sharing his insights? Really? Jesus taught God's Word. Paul taught God's Word. Luther taught God's Word. Were they "sharing their insights from Scripture"? Are you not deliberately avoiding the use of words that would accurately depict what a theological professor is doing in the classroom? Are you not doing so to avoid running afoul of St. Paul's words that clearly teach that a woman may not "teach or have authority over a man"? So, you rephrase it, spin it, and dress it up as something it is not. Theological professors at seminaries are not there to share their insights from Scripture. They are there to teach, publicly, officially, on behalf of the church, God's Word to men to prepare them to be pastors in the church. Let's call a spade a spade.
Steven and Rolf, I appreciate this discussion because it helps us all think through things that are not as obvious as we'd like to think when considering 1st Tim. 2:12 (in spite of what Rolf thinks is "clear teaching").
Steven, in a previous post you wrote: "Your question has way too many variables to give a simple 'yes' or 'no'. For instance: Is she teaching in an official capacity, as a deaconess under call by the church? Is she teaching a formal Bible class or is she just sharing with friends who have asked questions? Are the men members of her congregation or are they prospective members that she is encouraging toward instruction with the pastor? You see, it is not as simple as question you have posed." I agree! There are many variables and unique situations that are not so obviously addressed by 1st Tim. 2:12 which, as all three of us can agree, prohibits a women from preaching as a pastor in the Divine Service. Of course, Rolf would add that 1st Tim. 2:12 also forbids a lay woman from teaching lay men in any PUBLIC setting of the Church - but as Rob Morris has pointed out elsewhere, what qualifies as "PUBLIC teaching of the Church" is precisely what is being debated!
Rolf, in a previous post you wrote to me: "Again, I encourage you to call a spade a spade." Two responses. First, I have! Second, you need to do a better job at defining what you call a "spade" because what you think is obviously a "spade" is NOT obviously a "spade" to others.
For example, when I speak of a woman with a PhD in exegetical theology "sharing her insights from Scripture" in a classroom you accuse me of being vague. OK. Of course, she is "teaching God's Word" - but what does that mean in a classroom setting? Honestly, the kind of lectures I remember getting in a seminary classroom setting were much different creatures than what I got in the sermon from the pastor in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
For instance, in many of my exegetical classes we discussed the dates/authorship of various books of Scripture, ancient maps of the Holy Land and the varioius views of geographical locations of ancient cities, textual variants, the views of various exegetical theologians throughout history, the fine points of grammar/syntax of the Hebrew/Greek text, discussing difficult bible passages which have had various interpretations by various Christians throughout history, etc. - are you saying an educated woman cannot share her views about such things in a seminary classroom because that would be the same thing as a pastor preaching a sermon from a pulpit during the Divine Service? If so, I think you are in error on that.
In addition, in many of my seminary classes in historical theology we discussed the ideas and view of various early church fathers; theological controversies of the early church - such as montanism, arianism and pelagianism; dates of significat events in Church history; names of theologians and laypeople who were significant players in the Reformation; important people and events in Amercian Lutheranism, etc. - are you saying an educated woman cannot share her views about such things in a seminary classroom because that would be the same thing as a pastor preaching a sermon from a pulpit during the Divine Service?
Also, in my classes of systematic theology we discussed the differences between various theological traditions; the intricacies of the Two Natures of Christ and the Christological genera; compared and contrasted difference theological books written by different authors - such as "Freedom of the Will" by Erasmus versus "Bondage of the Will" by Luther, etc. - are you saying an educated woman cannot share her views about such things in a seminary classroom because that would be the same thing as a pastor preaching a sermon from a pulpit during the Divine Service?
Now, when it comes to teaching a class on homiletics or pastoral theology - I think that such subjects should be taught by an ordained pastor, but in the other cases I mentioned above I don't see why a woman can't share her insights in a seminary classroom because what is going on there is far different than what a pastor is doing when he baptizes, absolves, preaches and consecrates the elements of the Lord's Supper during the Divine Service.
I have a deaconess in my congregation who will sometimes teach a bible class in my absence - and these bible classes have both men and women. She does this with the following understanding: 1) She is NOT the pastor of the congregation and any teaching she does is under my authority; 2) When she teaches a bible class she is doing this as lay person talking about God's Word with other lay people - which is something lay Christians have always done and is what Priscilla did with Apollos. Just because lay people are discussing God's Word at church versus someone's home doesn't make the former PUBLIC and the latter PRIVATE. The issue is whether she claims to be teaching God's Word as the ordained pastor of the congregation, which she is NOT! In addition, I would also make a distinction between a bible study (which can happen with only lay people present) versus the Divine Service where God's people are gathered to receive Christ's gifts from the called and ordained pastor in their midst.
Here'a another example. At a congregation I once served in the St. Louis area there were a few lay women who were vocal about how the LCMS should ordain women as pastors. I used Scripture to correct them on this, but they would respond that I was reading Scripture as a "man" and couldn't be objective.Well ... there was a woman who was getting her PhD in exegetical theology at the St. Louis seminary. She was writing her thesis on 1st. Corinthians 11 and the meaning of "headship" - and she agreed 100% with the LCMS that women should not serve as pastors and used 1st Cor. ch. 11 as one of the texts to prove that point. So, I invited her to address our bible class one Sunday and give her insights from her study of I Cor. chap. 11 and what "headship" means and why only men should serve as pastors. Do you think she sinned when she did this?
One last example. The LifeLight Bible Study series from CPH has multiple authors who are men (I'm one of them) as well as WOMEN. Do you think 1st Tim. 2:12 forbids a lay woman from writing a LifeLight bible study for other lay people to consider and digest? If so, why?
Rolf, in a nutshell, I think you are using 1st Tim. 2:12 to impose your views of what women can't do on situations that, contrary to your view, are not so obviously addresed by 1st Tim. 2:12. Again, I don't think that a professor giving a lecture about Scripture or other theological subjects in a seminary classroom is the same as what a called and ordained pastor is doing during the Divine Service. I think the seminary classroom is more like what Priscilla did with Apollos. Faithful Lutherans need to be able to discuss these things without one of them saying: "Scripture's clear teaching on this should be obvious to you!"
Frankly, Tom, it take a bit of chutzpah for you to accuse me of imposing my views on 1 Timothy 2:12 when it is you who insists that Paul's words, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" do not mean "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" but rather I do not permit a woman to conduct the Divine Service. No, Tom, faithful Lutherans should not deny that God forbids women theological professors just because somebody cannot acknowledge the obvious sense of the biblical text. When a brother is wrong, a faithful brother tells him so. You are wrong. You refuse to take Paul's words to mean what they say. The teaching of theology to seminarians is not given by God to women to do. To put a woman in the classroom to teach theology to seminary students is to disobey the clear apostolic instruction of St. Paul. It is as a faithful Lutheran brother that I say to you: "Scripture's clear teaching on this should be obvious to you!" 1 Timothy 2:12 means what it says.