Messages

91

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Goodsoil's faith

« on: August 20, 2009, 01:03:25 AM »

I can't say I'm mad and angry.  That is so two years ago!  I've been fighting about this stuff for most of my young adult life, and this last synod assembly was it for me.  Now, I'm looking forward to the future and opportunities to make a solid Lutheran witness, not this antinomian, gnostic garbage.  Count me among one of the many people leaving sometime soon, as soon as a viable alternative to the ELCA is formed.  I'm headed to the CORE gathering to see what's up.  My hope is that all of us who want out can work out a good arrangement together.  

De profundis clamavi ad te Domine. Domine exaudi vocem meam.  

I am so mad and angry tonight I cannot speak on this thoughtfully. The church I love and know has gone off the deep end. The only consolation was sharing dinner with Richard Johnson, Thomas Pearson, Steven Tibbetts, Ken Kimball and others tonight.

God help us all. The rumours are rife of MANY people and congregations leaving. I had lunch with two bishops, they have major stomach ailments this week due to stress.

Jeff Ruby, Voting Member

92

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Tuesday morning: cheerleading, but always sexuality

« on: August 19, 2009, 02:55:31 PM »

Community Church of Joy recently left the ELCA for LCMC, just for your information.

You are correct, Charles, I am not part of your ELCA family, but I choose to speak on these topics because although the ELCA seems to not care, what you do in your corner of Lutheranism affects others as well.  Now it appears to me that you guys are about to thumb your nose at the rest of Lutheranism who are begging you not to do this, but we are all affected, like it or not.

Furthermore, I know for a fact that you feel quite free to chime in on LCMS discussions frequently while not being part of that family.  I see no reason why you felt it necessary to make that comment knowing full well that all are free to comment on any posting.

Finally, this issue would not have to be so painful if you in the ELCA had not spent the last seven years manufacturing reasons to go down this road.  By allowing the pro-gay activists in your midst to foment trouble for the last 20 years, you have brought this pain on yourselves.  While it saddens me to no end, you had to know there would be consequences of this action.  IMHO, you have just begun to feel them-they get worse from here if the proposals pass, and again, you will have brought that on yourselves by your arrogance.

You are correct in observing that the actions of any group of people who display the name "Lutheran" has an impact on all who wear that name. I have to wonder how things might have been better had the ELCA gave improving our relations with the rest of the Lutheran world instead of forging such ill-considered agreements with the Episcopalians, Reformed and (it appears likely) the Methodists. Melanchthon was wrong about entering into full fellowship with those we aren't in agreement with, Flacius was correct. Real true unity between Christians is only possible when it's based on a solid and honest agreement about important matters of core theology.

Maybe we should follow the lead of Community Church of Joy in Arizona. They don't use the word Lutheran in their name or website but are more Lutheran than many that do. That's one way of not being stigmatized by the actions of the ELCA.

93

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Tuesday morning: cheerleading, but always sexuality

« on: August 19, 2009, 02:35:25 PM »

Fred, remaining in the ELCA and forming a non geographic synod is only one option available.  That's not necessarily set in stone.  It's possible that one suggestion will be for Lutheran CORE to morph into a body separate from the ELCA.  Like I've said, I think that LCMC is good, but some folks are repelled by the lack of structure and oversight.  So, just keep that in mind.

My concerns about Lutheran Core are remianing in the ELCA.  I do not see a change in attitude coming from HQ anytime soon and I don't see why we should occupy our time and talents to promoting something as critical as this.  Even if CORE forms a non-geographic synod what can they really accomplish?  I have a freind whose congregation joined LCMC and they are happy with all of the time that it freed up so they can do actual ministry.  I think we are being tricked by the evil one.

94

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Tuesday morning: cheerleading, but always sexuality

« on: August 19, 2009, 01:03:23 PM »

Fred, you are not alone. I've taken great comfort in realizing that over the last months. In the meantime, sit tight while all the options are presented. You may be interested in the Lutheran CORE gathering in Indianapolis at the end of September, where a response to this situation will be discussed and options placed on the table. You're right that we don't have to just sit back and take what comes out way.

All the best,

Spaceman

Mike - so we should just sit back and take what ever comes our way?  What about "Here I Stand".  I am tired of being the door mat for those who are pushing change.  And I also wonder if we are afraid to take a real stand for our beliefs and not just sit back and say oh poor me.  I include myself in this situation.  I can tell you my walking shoes are warming up unless some other option appears after all of this is passed.  Why would I want to be a part of soemthing that I do not support?  My faith is more important to me than the "ELCA" label.  Sorry, but I have been frustrated with ELCA for a long time.

95

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Opening Eucharist

« on: August 19, 2009, 10:01:24 AM »

Bob,

I don't know enough about you and your thoughts to figure out where you stand on the issues being presented before the assembly regarding homosexual activity.  But, let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that we agree.  I am opposed to recognizing homosexual relationships as God-blessed.
Here comes the trick.  Based on your recent post, is is possible for us, even though we might agree on this point, to be a part of the same church body should such a division take place post assembly?
I do not agree with the notion of a three-fold ministry.  Your post leads me to believe that you think a three-fold ministry is what defines the apostolic, catholic Church.
I really don't see that such a structure is scriptural.  There are references to "bishops" and "deacons," but these roles are not clearly defined, and, as most scholars would point out, are not intended to mean the church offices that they later would become.  So, when it comes to dalmatics, I really couldn't care less.  Only you won't catch me wearing one, as I think they look kind of silly.     Just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Rev. Spaceman

Here is the poop about the dalmatics.
Since the ELCA doesn't have any "real" deacons, the assisting minister who "functions" as a Deacon in the Liturgy, gets to dree up as one!
This should not surprise us, as the ELCA has great difficulty with "man and wife" actually being, well.......... How could they EVER get the Deacons ministry correct, it too is Scriptual, Apostolic, Catholic???
Bob 

96

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Tuesday morning: cheerleading, but always sexuality

« on: August 18, 2009, 10:56:56 PM »

Phantom,

I couldn't agree more.  The leadership needs to get word out quickly to everyone who feels that the ELCA has abandoned them and encourage them to be at the CORE gathering in Indianapolis.  I'll be there for sure.  If there is a reasonable synodical alternative proposed to the ELCA, I don't think it would take much convincing for me to jump on board, nor many congregations for that matter.

 ... a synod within  the ELCA will form a  new body-Jim Crumley, Former LCA Bishop, is one person working it , Larry Yoder another. ..and I am sure CORE will be there as well.

OK, I'm really dense today.  Probably 'cause I spent most of it outside working on an old hotrod VW camper - in the stark August heat and humidity ...

That said, I just caught your subtle language.  IF this is moving forward, my suggestion to the leadership is to *quickly* get the word out.  Whichever synod will be leading this needs to let us know "real soon now" before we start heading out different doors. 

ThePhantom

97

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Tuesday morning: cheerleading, but always sexuality

« on: August 18, 2009, 05:42:01 PM »

He spoke right at the mic near my Synod's seats. That is correct. He equated calling gay marriage sinful blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I feel like a stranger in a strange land..

Talk is that if the revisionists win, which as a voting member seems increasingly likely ( but still praying hard for a miracle) a synod within  the ELCA will form a  new body-Jim Crumley, Former LCA Bishop, is one person working it , Larry Yoder another. ..and I am sure CORE will be there as well.

Jeff

Jeff,

Elaborate a bit on this idea for a "synod within the ELCA forming a new body."

Does that mean that these folks are trying to form an alternative body outside the ELCA? Or do you mean they are trying to create a separate synod within the ELCA?

Please clarify.  I would be all for the creation of a new Lutheran church body.  Don't get me wrong.  I like LCMC and the witness they carry.  But I think that there are dangers from having such little official oversight.  Perhaps this new body could have some official relationship with LCMC but not be connected with it.

Thanks

Spaceman

98

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Monday Evening Plenary: Simple majority upheld

« on: August 18, 2009, 04:27:00 PM »

That is, they expect God to change everyone to be "traditionalists".

I do not expect revisionists to be changed. If there's anything I can do to protect the next generation from them, that will be my life's work until the Lord calls me home.

Ditto to that.

99

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Monday Evening Plenary: Simple majority upheld

« on: August 18, 2009, 01:46:17 PM »

In our conference, the synod office doesn't decide who goes to the CWA.  They simply throw out whatever "quota" is required for conferences. No discussion from the people to be elected to go, no engagement with the issues.

Then that's the fault of the conference for not engaging in discussion with those who are willing and able to go before they are nominated/elected.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise.  I, for one, am tired of having these constant parliamentary battles.  I think it would be much better if people would go their own way now.  Let those who want change live in a church with whatever "gospel" suits their fancy.  I want no part of it.

It sounds like you are one of those people who is contemplating going "your own way now". If so, it also sounds like you will be searching for a church body with a "gospel" that suits your fancy.

Too rich! From the one who has made 10127 posts searching for a gospel that suits him. Hi Brian. Some way to welcome someone to the forum.

Spaceman! Welcome. I am leaving the ELCA. Brian helped push me over the edge. You have such an auspicious beginning here being welcomed by pure malarky. But lest we get into the dreaded ad homeinem ...

Thanks, "Just here for the CWA."

I'd be interested in having a conversation with you about your future plans.  Glad to be on here now.  Something I should have done long ago.  Any way for us to get in touch and discuss these issues in a more private fashion?

Spaceman

100

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Monday Evening Plenary: Simple majority upheld

« on: August 18, 2009, 01:09:32 PM »

It sounds like you are one of those people who is contemplating going "your own way now". If so, it also sounds like you will be searching for a church body with a "gospel" that suits your fancy.
[/quote]

My point is that the concept of general "acceptance" and "inclusivity" [sic] is not the real gospel.  A fuller, richer expression of the gospel is not that God accepts me for who I am.  Rather, God accepts me for who I am in order to justify me (not my sins) and to go to work on me, calling me to a life of daily baptism, daily repentance.  This is inconsistent with the rhetoric of a lot of people advocating for change.

I operate under no illusions that it is possible to create a perfect church body.  That is why I have remained in the ELCA for as long as I have.  However, there comes a point where we have to honestly ask ourselves what purpose it serves remaining in an organization where one has to constantly defend him/herself against charges of "hate" and "intolerance."  I've about had it.

101

ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2009 / Re: Monday Evening Plenary: Simple majority upheld

« on: August 18, 2009, 12:41:34 PM »

In our conference, the synod office doesn't decide who goes to the CWA.  They simply throw out whatever "quota" is required for conferences. No discussion from the people to be elected to go, no engagement with the issues.  You have to wonder if the people who are going have any clue about the magnitude of the decisions they will be asked to make.  No wonder you never know what's going to happen at these assemblies! People can criticize the LCMS all they want, but at least there's some discussion (healthy or unhealthy) about issues with the people who will fill their offices.

I've held out in the ELCA for quite some time in the hopes that healthy reform can take place.  I now see that we've dragged this out about as long as possible.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise.  I, for one, am tired of having these constant parliamentary battles.  I think it would be much better if people would go their own way now.  Let those who want change live in a church with whatever "gospel" suits their fancy.  I want no part of it.