Messages

1

Your Turn / Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop

« on: May 13, 2021, 03:06:09 PM »

I would be grateful if someone could point me to the Assembly action that expanded the LG of our 2009 decision to include the rest of the sexual alphabet.

The alphabet has never been an issue. Sexual relationships (outside of marriage) were. Megan is married. Married clergy are on our roster of ministers of word and sacrament.

Perhaps Bishop Hanson didn't get the memo when, prior to our 2009 vote, he dropped the BT when discussing the HSGT. It magically re-appeared after the 2009 vote.

2

Your Turn / Re: Transgender ELCA Bishop

« on: May 13, 2021, 12:25:27 PM »

I would be grateful if someone could point me to the Assembly action that expanded the LG of our 2009 decision to include the rest of the sexual alphabet.

3

Your Turn / Re: Professor Fretheim

« on: November 18, 2020, 07:56:45 AM »

I too, had Dr. Fretheim for several classes at Luther during my years at Luther, 1973-1977. Христос воскресе!  Воистину Воскрес! May the Holy Angels Greet Thee!

4

Your Turn / Re: Election 2020

« on: November 02, 2020, 12:03:18 PM »

I have prepared myself for the possibility that Biden might lose. He will not lose the popular vote, but he may lose the electoral college vote, an outdated mess where the votes of a few people and some buffalo in South Dakota or Montana "count" more than the votes of tens of thousands of people elsewhere.

Do away with the electoral college and my vote will become meaningless. A handful of large urban areas will determine the outcome, the majority of which will favor the Democrats. We will become a one-party nation.

5

Your Turn / Re: Prayer requests

« on: October 20, 2020, 07:41:45 AM »

I am saddened by the loss of a brother in Christ whose kindness and love Christ shown in all he did. I am honored to have known and worked with Bishop Spring. May the Holy Angels greet him and rest eternal be granted. Христос воскресе!  Воистину Воскрес!

6

Your Turn / Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop

« on: August 16, 2019, 07:55:36 AM »

And when the romanticizing about that pleasantly symbolic but mythical and meaningless hand-to-head “succession” is set aside, no one cares.

Well, Charles, some people do care, you may not and that is your right, but to say 'no one cares' is not charitable.

7

Your Turn / Re: Replacing “Vision and Expectations”

« on: August 07, 2019, 08:33:51 AM »

Increasingly those who do not agree with the full inclusion of LGBT (same-sex marriage, ordination of partnered homosexuals, etc.) are unwelcome in the ELCA. By declaring the Deaconess association RIC I take it that all members are expected to be on board with the RIC beliefs and principles.

You don't believe that God in Christ is seeking to reconcile all people to himself and to each other?

I'm going to guess that is not the first priority of RIC.

8

Your Turn / Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?

« on: June 04, 2019, 08:56:12 AM »

Pastor Charlton:
Its more likely that in the case of the 2009 promises, y'all never meant them anyway.  In other words, y'all lied in order to get your way. 

Me;
Well, I’all never voted on anything, so....
  I spot some errors in the postings by Pastor Charlton and and Pastor Hatcher, but I suspect it would do no good to unpack them here.
   We can all see the trajectory of the events, and we have all been present how they have unfolded so far. I don’t know why people seem to be surprised at where we have ended up. But here we are.
   I know what I’m going to do. What are y’all going to do?
 

Please, Charles, point out my errors. If I have given incorrect information I need to correct it We are accepting of LBGTQ et in the ELCA. There were no churchwide discussions, forums or debates. There was no churchwide vote. We voted to roster gay and lesbian clergy in committed relationships in 2009. We did not vote to roster any other sexual minority. The stance at official ELCA events and publications are promoting the LBGTQ et al goals and if the traditional understanding marriage has been supported I must have missed it. Pastors are being denied calls because they will not perform same-sex weddings, no other reason. We were told at the 2010 NE Iowa Synod assembly that any resolution to reconsider the 2009 passage of HSGT would be ruled out of order. Had HSGT failed to pass in 2009 we all know it would have come back again and again until it did pass. Please point out my errors.

9

Your Turn / Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?

« on: June 03, 2019, 11:23:45 PM »

And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.

If by 'good faith' you mean pushing the LBGTQ et al in everything from youth gatherings, to Living Lutheran, to the most recent draft social statement, adding to that full acceptance of LBGTQ et al goals with no discussion, no resolutions and no vote at any Churchwide assembly.  Of course, that trajectory should have been clear in 2010 when we were told that no resolution to reconsider the 2009 decision would be allowed. If that is what you mean by 'good faith' I would not like to see what it would be like if the ELCA had acted duplicitously.

10

Your Turn / Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?

« on: June 03, 2019, 09:43:13 PM »

Peter writes (re the bishop-elect):
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is (in violation). Unless those people don't count, of course.
I ask:
Tell me how he is not in conformance with our policies.
10 years after we made certain decisions, it seems clear that our church is moving beyond the decisions made 10 years ago and into a new kind of understanding of certain things. It would seem that we are becoming a church where the majority of the people accept a certain aspect of the 2009 decisions. Hundreds of congregations who could not accept those decisions left us. I don’t think it is clear yet exactly where this is leading.
The episcopal church reached a time when it could no longer accommodate those who forever refused to accept women priests. I wonder if we will reach a time when we can no longer accommodate those who will not accept the ministries of a significant number of our ordained leaders.

P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.

So, those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?

That about sums it up in the ELCA.

11

Your Turn / Re: The North American Lutheran Seminary Presidential Search

« on: March 03, 2019, 08:12:34 AM »

I am not qualified to suggest who might become president of the Seminary. As to the office of bishop of the NALC, Pr. Marshall Hahn is the obvious choice. Of course, the church headquarters will have to move to St. Olaf, Iowa, but that is a small sacrifice for such a capable bishop. 

12

Your Turn / Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber

« on: December 17, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »

That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.

Charles, two things, you have some fairly strong opinions on the use of names in this forum. Yet, you seem careless about the correct spelling of folks' names or even attributing the right person to the right post. It makes your protests about others use of pen names less credible. In the above quote, why did you feel it necessary to fire the parting shot at Pr. Kirchner? It come across as peevish.

13

Your Turn / Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber

« on: December 06, 2018, 07:59:07 AM »

Here is my take on the current discussion about Pastor Bolz-Weber (who, BTW, I believe, has a name that deserves respect and should not be minimized to a set of letters).
If you totally reject the ELCA's position on same-gender marriage and acceptance of gays and lesbians....

Just reminder that the ELCA has voted in Assembly that its policy does include the understanding that same sex unions are not God pleasing and contrary to Scripture. Also, there are those in the ELCA, who are not departing, who regard this as the true understanding of Scripture.

14

Your Turn / Re: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.

« on: August 30, 2018, 08:25:37 AM »

There is more than one "narrative" (and that word is, in my opinion, a meaningless and contrived bit of buzzing), Steven. I am constantly asked to believe and stew about your experiences. And I do believe you.
Why must you dismiss my life in the ULCA, LCA, and ELCA as some "narrative" rather than a blessed, joyous experience with faith and church?

Steven is speaking of real experiences of real ELCA pastors. I cannot speak for Steven, but you know from conversations with me that these are real experiences. Pastors have been removed, threatened with removal and harassed because their 'bound conscience' does not support the current direction of the church they love and serve. I am not asking you to stew about what I and other ELCA pastors have experienced. I am asking that you respect us who were told in 2009 that our understanding would be honored. It is not being honored. And you do yourself no honor by implying that we are whiny and full of sour grapes.

15

Your Turn / Re: The thread for info on churches voting to change affiliation & all follow-up.

« on: August 29, 2018, 04:16:54 PM »

While approval of CCM required bylaw changes, these were modified in 2001 to provide candidates for ordination the option of not having a synodical bishop officiate at the ordination to try and appease the opposition to CCM. ...

... We again tried to appease the opposition by including positions 1 & 2. ...

...While we have taken their complaints into account, it often wasn't enough to fully appease them. ...

I think you need to look up the word "appease."

I did. The illustration my dictionary gives sounds exactly like what we did in 2001.


pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands: amendments have been added to appease local pressure groups.

One could also make the argument that we approved HSGT to appease those who support 3 & 4.