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Messages - J.L. Precup

Quote from: Dave Benke on July 17, 2024, 10:19:28 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on July 17, 2024, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on July 17, 2024, 08:26:17 AMPut the shoe on the other foot.  It's the Democratic National Convention.  An LCMS pastor gives the benediction (as it was called) and puts in lines about blessings coming to Joe Biden (or whoever gets nominated), and prays a prayer from the Lutheran Service Book.  No problems?

Dave Benke

Is the LCMS in the chaplain business?  In some ways I don't really care the answer, just give a consistent one.  If we are then sometimes the pastor plays the chap. Which includes prayers and blessings over some hopelessly muddy theological places.  And it isn't my place to start saying your muddy place is too muddy but mine is just the right amount of mud. If we aren't than we just say no when asked.

If I was looking for sedes of doctrine I'd start with Daniel in Babylon and Jesus on what makes you unclean (Matt 15:1-20). But then I'm too English for Saxon history LCMS.

Actually, the LCMS is in the chaplain business, and led the way in military chaplaincy through the decades, praying in foxholes etc.  Jack Vessey was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, LCMS layman who credited the Army chaplain in his unit in I think WWII with setting him straight spiritually for life on a human level. 

My position is that we should be a little more OK with muddy waters. 

Dave Benke

Yes, Dave, and besides foxholes, I've done the praying at minus 400 feet under the Pacific Ocean. 

Searching for a sedes doctrina...well, that depends if that Latin phrase is plural or singular.  I suggest it is singular, and then the answer comes straight from the confessions.  It is the doctrina evangelii.
Quote from: JoshuaMc on July 16, 2024, 03:11:58 PMI'm coming over here to register again my distaste for the Pastor's comedy routine before praying. Not appropriate. Not befitting someone from our confession.


Thanks for pointing out what should be obvious to anyone, Josh.
"When Rev. A.L. Barry was president of the LCMS, he wrote a series of pamphlets that included one concerning close communion. (Copy attached: LCMS-Barry-What-About-Fellowship-in-the-Lords-Supper.pdf)

He said that
those who approach the same altar together profess to be one — one in all points of Christian doctrine and practice."

Yet is was the same President Barry who signed off on LCMS military chaplains being able to commune all Lutherans.  When I conducted worship at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, several of the newest Marine recruits would usually approach me before worship.  They fell into two groups:  1) LCMS recruits showing me a letter from their pastor that they were LCMS members in good standing and could attend the Eucharist  2) WELS recruits who told me they could not commune.  I would write the LCMS pastor to tell them their member had communed.  After a few weeks of boot camp, WELS recruits came forward to receive and I communed them.  ELCA recruits were simply welcomed as part of the big happy family :-)
Your Turn / Re: Some people claim...
July 09, 2024, 04:27:34 PM
Psalm 146

1 Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord, O my soul!

2 I will praise the Lord as long as I live;
I will sing praises to my God all my life long.

3 Do not put your trust in princes,
in mortals, in whom there is no help.

4 When their breath departs, they return to the earth;
on that very day their plans perish.
Your Turn / Prayer for July 4th
July 04, 2024, 06:56:08 PM
Almighty God—

Upon all the nations of the earth bestow your grace. Especially we ask you to bless our land and all its inhabitants and all who are in authority. Cause your glory to dwell among us and let mercy and truth, justice and peace everywhere prevail.

We ask this through Jesus Christ your Son, our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.


--Prayer from the LBW
Your Turn / Re: AC@494 — Happy Birthday!
June 27, 2024, 02:17:28 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2024, 07:42:31 PM
Quote from: J.L. Precup on June 26, 2024, 05:19:32 PMDave, besides the birthday of the confession, the date is also the beginning of the Korean War (which has not formally ended).  I guess it only shows that outside or inside the church, there is constant war.  Since we do not fight against flesh and blood, the only way forward is to answer with gentleness and reverence.

Amen to that, Lee!  How was the LSTC remembrance?

Dave Benke

wie im Himmel so auf Erden

Your Turn / Re: AC@494 — Happy Birthday!
June 26, 2024, 05:19:32 PM
Dave, besides the birthday of the confession, the date is also the beginning of the Korean War (which has not formally ended).  I guess it only shows that outside or inside the church, there is constant war.  Since we do not fight against flesh and blood, the only way forward is to answer with gentleness and reverence.
I read an interesting story from a rabbi which goes something like this:  a rabbi was asked if one person could read the creation account.  "No!" replied the rabbi.  "The mystery of creation is too far into the depths of God's mind and intention for one person to begin to understand.  It will only lead one person into confusion and error."  Then the rabbi was asked if two people could read the creation account together.  "No!" said the rabbi. "The grandeur of creation and the investigation of God's intent will lead each in a slightly different directions until there is a destructive argument."  Finally, the rabbi was asked if three people could read the creation account together.  "Yes!" affirmed the rabbi.  "As the reading progresses and thoughts and opinions are expressed, two are bound to argue for the explanation they prefer. Eventually the two will vehemently promote their own conflicting position.  Then the task of the third is to help make the two friends again." 
Your Turn / Re: Seminex Remembered
June 06, 2024, 11:41:57 AM
Witnessing Christ:  Preaching for the Church and the World  [excerpt] 

--Fred Niedner on the Fiftieth Anniversary of Seminex

They had the votes, however, and they ruled that our simple gospel, and all who preach or teach it, were "not to be tolerated in the church of God." There being no other church than God's so far as we knew, they had effectively dispatched us to outer darkness, to the weeping and gnashing of teeth, to God-forsakenness. "Go to hell," they said.

The only God we fully know and trust we see incarnate in the flesh and blood of the crucified Christ, and now, crucified with him by baptism into his death, we, like him, look at everything from the perspective of our cross-high perches, nailed as we are and dangling between heaven and earth, giving our lives for the world.

In a world that will dehumanize multitudes in order to save a few, we will hang nailed with the condemned, still making friends, still forgiving sins, still making Eden of our last days and final breaths. We are witnesses to the truth that God, the God we know in Christ the crucified, is with us here in the silence of God-forsakenness.

We are witnesses, Christ's witnesses, here in the universe of spectacles and ruins, opulence and poverty, yelling and silence, blinding light and consuming gloom. We preach Christ crucified, foolishness even to us so much of the time, but the Holy Spirit uses our halting words to put ligaments and muscles even on our bleached, old, forgotten bones. We stand, we sing—Ah, do we sing!!—and together we go out into the world, and there, too, we are witnesses to what's in the heart of God who so loved the world that he handed over the Son, and all us sons and daughters, brothers and sisters of Christ, that the world might be saved, not condemned. We witness to God's heart most directly and surely by simply being Christ's broken, crucified, and risen body in the world. Merely by being here, we un-hell hell. Our job is not to take over the world, but to be in the world, embodying God's love, wherever there is loneliness, hopelessness, condemnation, god-forsakenness, or every other outpost of hell we can see from our vantage point as the fellow-crucified.

"Go to hell," they said 50 years ago. And so we did. And ever since, we've helped get it ready for everyone else who will land here, including our children, and some of theirs. After all these years, all that's left to say is, "Thanks be to God!"
Your Turn / Re: Seminex Remembered
June 05, 2024, 05:48:31 PM
The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is partnering with a local St. Louis committee to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Seminex at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis.

The St. Louis Hymn Fest will take place on Friday, June 14, 2024, at 7 pm at the Lutheran Church of the Atonement in Florissant, MO. This significant milestone marks a pivotal moment in our shared history and the journey of faith.

For more details and to sign up to receive a recording, please visit our event page. We look forward to sharing the St. Louis Hymn Fest with you as we celebrate the legacy of Seminex!
Your Turn / Re: Please Don't Outbid Me!
June 05, 2024, 05:40:17 PM
He is emeritus in the SE District living in Sanford, NC.
Your Turn / Re: Please Don't Outbid Me!
June 05, 2024, 05:24:38 PM
Art, the author, was a classmate, Concordia Seminary, St Louis class of '72.
Your Turn / Re: LCMS 2023 Convention
June 21, 2023, 05:27:25 PM
Here is the latest convention update:
Quote from: Michael Slusser on March 03, 2023, 11:20:42 AM
Quote from: Richard Johnson on March 03, 2023, 08:59:59 AM
Another one bites the dust:
Finlandia University (formerly Suomi College and Seminary) says they never enrolled more than 650 students. That strikes me as precariously small at any time.

What will become of the Finnish American Heritage Center and the Folk School remains to be seen.


Father, Terveisiä ylemmältä niemimaalta.  650 students is well over 10% of the population of Hancock, Michigan.
Your Turn / Re: Seminex Profs
January 01, 2022, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on January 01, 2022, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on January 01, 2022, 09:39:25 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on January 01, 2022, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on January 01, 2022, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 31, 2021, 11:12:32 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on December 31, 2021, 08:44:36 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on December 31, 2021, 08:37:37 PM
Let's not overwork this. Not all highly academic studies lead to a deconstruction of the Christian faith.
No, I never said that they all do, but some do.

An example might be the academic approach that gained the most attention during the Walkout controversy: historical criticism. Some used it without overtly undermining articles of the Faith (though adoption of the method seems automatically to undermine the doctrine of Scripture). Others have used it to undermine doctrines such as the resurrection of Jesus, without which one cannot be a Christian.

No one at Concordia Seminary used historical criticism to undermine doctrines such as the resurrection of Jesus. Period.   >:(

Peace, JOHN

Happy New Year to all and blessings for 2022!  John, you're absolutely on target with this rejoinder to Ed.  Who are the "others" who taught at the St. Louis Sem in the late 60s and early 70s who used historical criticism to undermine the resurrection of Jesus at the St. Louis seminary?  Nobody.  The dots don't connect.

Dave Benke

I don't think Rev. Engelbrecht said that anyone at St. Louis did.  He said that SOME who used that method did.

Pastor Bohler is correct. In Reply 57 I asked Charles for an example of an academic approach that fit his description. He didn't provide one, so I thought historical criticism might serve as an example of method that turns out very different results depending on the practitioner. I made no accusations about the CSL faculty majority.

However, the Blue Book that Fienen mentions likely includes specific examples of what some faculty majority members said about their use of historical criticism, if anyone wants to explore that.

At the 1973 New Orleans convention of which I was a delegate, time was set aside for four St. Louis seminary professors to answer questions from the convention.  I recall one in particular.  Ed Krentz was asked if he believed Adam was a real person.  He responded, "yes."  Around me, I heard in not so hushed voices, "don't believe him."  Afterwards, President Preus addressed the convention and said much the same in perhaps not so harsh tones:  "we have heard...."  You can read whatever you wish, but I think the writing is skewed to whatever position the writer had to begin with.  I can tell you that as a student at St. Louis from 1968-1972, I never heard any professor attempt to prove to me that any part of Scripture is untrue. 
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