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Messages - mj4

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1
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran ethnic origins
« on: November 26, 2020, 03:51:14 PM »
Germany did not have a state church like Scandinavian Countries, but each prince decided whether his territory would be Roman Catholic or Lutheran, and later, Reformed entered the mix.

Not all Lutherans came from Lutheran lands. The Salzburgers, for example, were expelled from the Catholic Archbishopric of Salzburg, Austria, and settled in Georgia and South Carolina. I guess you could put them in the Old German camp though.

2
Your Turn / Re: The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical Books
« on: November 23, 2020, 03:45:04 AM »
Brian, I noticed you posted earlier, "Luther's canon had 73 books."

I think this unlikely since Luther said the Apocrypha are not the same as Holy Scripture. He certainly translated and included the Apocrypha in the Luther Bibel but did not treat them the same as the 66 books of the two testaments.

Gerhard expressly states the Apocrypha are "outside the canon." Deuterocanonical, as in the thread heading, is a Roman Catholic view, I think. Not sure if the Eastern Orthodox use that distinction.


I believe that the fact that Luther translated the Apocrypha and included them at the end of the Old Testament, like including James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation at the end of of the New Testament, indicates that he included them in his "canon" - his listed of sacred books.

His published edition from 1545 does leave room for debate. From a facsimile:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044049943897&view=1up&seq=19



3
Your Turn / Re: The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical Books
« on: November 22, 2020, 05:12:24 PM »
The Luther Bible (German: Lutherbibel) is a German language Bible translation from Hebrew and ancient Greek by Martin Luther. The New Testament was first published in 1522 and the complete Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments with Apocrypha, in 1534. It was the first full translation of the Bible into German based mainly on the original Hebrew and Greek texts and not the Latin Vulgate translation.

I did some poking around and found a nice two-volume 1534 facsimile edition. Hmm...maybe a nice Christmas gift? Also a nicely bound 1545 facsimile edition. I won't post the links as I don't want to be banned for promoting a product, but I thought some might like to know that facsimile editions are available.

4
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 17, 2020, 01:26:43 PM »
Hardly a “massive flaw”.
It was human error involving apparently less than 3000 ballots, which would not have changed anything.
Again no evidence of massive orchestrated voter fraud.
So let’s not go hysterical over this error.

Yes, the infighting, calls for resignations, and alarmist rhetoric in Georgia are really all about posturing for the January runoffs. The failure to upload data from a memory card in Floyd county resulted in a marginal gain of only 778 votes for President Trump. We should count every vote, but this error won’t overturn the election results.

5
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 10, 2020, 02:21:13 PM »
What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed. 

I recall a recent news report that suggested that the incoming Trump administration was ill prepared to receive the cooperation of the Obama administration. When President-elect Trump fired former Gov. Chris Christie during the transition, the whole process fell apart. Obama staffers would go to a scheduled transition meeting only to find out that there would be no Trump administration counterpart with whom to meet. It showed.

6
Your Turn / Re: Planning for life's end
« on: November 10, 2020, 12:47:00 PM »
I think it was on the Forum here that I was introduced to Pr. Matt Whitman’s YouTube videos. For those that have enjoyed his videos in the past, you might find his videos on preparing for the end of life helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0XMTSDQ2ko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ-M5j9enfs

…and here’s an off-topic bonus video with one of our own. Hopefully it won't derail the conversation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsEw7ECzGlc

7
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 09, 2020, 07:48:32 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.

Okay. I’ll answer your question even though you haven’t bothered to answer mine. First, though, let me be clear about what I meant when I wrote that Norman Teigen’s characterization of Evangelicals was too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose. Think of how many Lutheran groups there are today. A lot, right? Would you ever be able to make a sweeping claim about our political views or motives as sweeping as Mr. Teigen has made regarding Evangelicals? I don’t think so. And Evangelicals are many times more diverse than Lutherans in America. Whatever Mr. Teigren’s accomplishments as an historian, they are not reflected in his claims regarding Evangelicals.

About the Franklin quote, Mr. Teigen correctly put it in the context of the religious tests that Massachusetts tried to impose on candidates for the House of Representatives during Franklin’s lifetime. He wasn’t referring to financial support for churches or their schools as far as I can tell. My guess, and I’d rather he clarify this himself, is that Mr. Teigen was making a connection between his claim that Evangelicals are ”power-hungry” and the attempt of Massachusetts to guarantee that only Christians served in the legislature.

But if you want to extrapolate the Franklin quote to apply to the debate about private school access to federal funds, then I can extrapolate too. Our ELCA advocates for all sorts of government actions and policies, much of it telling the government where we want it to spend taxpayer’s money. So, are ELCA Lutherans “power-hungry”? Are we refusing to confine ourselves to the work of the Lord? I don’t think so any more or less than the Evangelicals.

https://support.elca.org/site/SPageNavigator/elca_action_center.html?NONCE_TOKEN=23BB48C1CE79EF02C5B7920B7041F7D6&_ga=2.231511455.1676207686.1604950913-1852050956.1600195088

8
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 09, 2020, 03:24:51 PM »
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.

9
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 09, 2020, 02:16:52 PM »
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the Vice-President Elect.  Evangelicals are politically power hungry and do not confine themselves to doing the work of the Lord,  This is my letter to NY Times which has been approved for distribution.   

"Your comment has been approved!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with The New York Times community.

Norman Teigen | Hopkins MN
In 1780 Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Richard Price on the subject of religious tests: "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." see the Library of America collection."

Your characterization of Evangelicals is too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose.

Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.

10
Your Turn / Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
« on: November 09, 2020, 01:26:31 PM »
Ross Douthat has an interesting post-mortem.  The gist of it is that at its best, Trumpism represented a potential multiethnic coalition more focused on blue collar workers, social conservatism, and economic populism than previous Republican leaders, a coalition that is now just shy of a majority.  The big question is whether it could be a majority absent Trump's abrasive personality, or whether it would be a smaller minority without Trump's personal appeal to some segments of the coalition:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/opinion/sunday/is-there-a-trumpism-after-trump.html

My take is simple.  It's not only a majority, but likely a permanent majority, if Republicans can moderate on race and other divisive issues and take the best of Trump's approach without the worst of it. 

Most of the country is not in the rabidly woke camp that the Democrat base is.  It is also not in the same place as the angrier parts of the Republican base.  But Republicans are better positioned to move in their direction, because on social issues they are where most of the country is, and they can easily pivot on economic issues.  For example, come up with an actual healthcare plan instead of promising to "fix" something that they have shown no inclination to actually do anything about.  Etc.

I agree. Republicans have a great opportunity to build a new multiracial populist coalition without Trump. But they’ve got to make some changes in order to capitalize on the moment. Trump was elected on the populist impulse but squandered his chance to give it shape by tripping over his own ego. He also appointed advisors who were corrupt and let some like Steven Miller betray values that are woven into the very fabric of the American identity.

I could foresee a successful Republican Party that embraces its history as a champion of emancipation, smaller government, environmentalism (without necessarily going full on Green New Deal), and create opportunity for individual economic success. It would also need to get us out of the wars we are currently fighting (Is it six or seven now?) and come up with a smart and efficient healthcare plan. It would be a more populist and even progressive Republican Party, one less concerned with Wall Street and more concerned with Main Street, to use a cliché.

All of this would make the corporate elites and lobbyists squirm, but I think it would be a winning approach.

11
Your Turn / Re: Election 2020
« on: November 06, 2020, 01:24:10 AM »
As a Democrat, I'm really upset. We've done such a good job rigging the vote count for Biden, but we've utterly failed to flip the Senate and increase the House majority. Heads are going to roll!

No, think of the fund raising possibilities that presents. Speaker Pelosi can continue to send out alarmist fund raising letters about what an existential threat the Republicans are. Ice cream for everyone!

12
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Forum
« on: November 03, 2020, 12:26:03 AM »
Are there examples from other countries handling reparations for slavery?

That's a very interesting question given that the USA is not the only country to have had legal slavery.

I recall that Germany paid WW2 reparations to Israel. Also, Volkswagen, having used slave labor during the war, paid reparations to survivors.

13
Family separation of migrant children allowed U.S. government to ‘traffic in kidnapping’ | COMMENTARY
By KRISH VIGNARAJAH
FOR THE BALTIMORE SUN |
OCT 26, 2020 AT 5:32 AM

Two years ago, our country watched in horror as our own government literally ripped children from their parents' arms and locked them away behind chain-link cages. The images and recordings of children crying in the media were so disturbing, so alien to who we thought we were as a free, civilized country, that politicians on both sides of the aisle called for its immediate end. The outcry was swift; the policy was ended.

But for the 545 children who still haven’t been reunited with their parents, it was only the beginning of a three-year nightmare with no end in sight.

for more...https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/op-ed/bs-ed-op-1026-migrant-children-parent-separation-20201026-mcb36wtkdbaqhnkhj6cuhykrya-story.html


14
Your Turn / Re: Election 2020
« on: October 25, 2020, 07:05:56 PM »
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/with-the-hunter-biden-expose-suppression-136

As I implied up stream, I try to hold the other candidate to the same standard. When I do, it's not pretty. I really like Matt Taibbi, by the way. Thanks for calling attention to his article.

15
Your Turn / Re: Election 2020
« on: October 25, 2020, 06:16:44 PM »
And I suspect countless others who refused to vote for him last time, or did so only extremely reluctantly, will be doing so again without all the reservations.

If voters have weighed the pros and cons and can now vote for the president without reservations, I'm dumbfounded. It seems to me that weighing the pros and cons would only increase the reservations. I'd say the same thing about the other candidate, by the way.

Piper's point was that we can't discount the effect of personal flaws on the culture of the nation. Many Christians, especially in Piper's circle of influence, have justified their votes by elevating policy issues over personal character as if character didn't matter.

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