Messages

1

Your Turn / Re: In Praise of God: CSL's New Stained Glass Windows

« on: May 14, 2023, 10:45:19 AM »

Don't care for them. Much better than Valpo's Chapel, but too white and washed out. Not enough color.

2

Your Turn / Re: Theater incident

« on: May 11, 2023, 08:53:09 AM »

Not seeking discussion, just reporting an interesting occurrence.
   Went to the comic/serious play “Incident at Our Lady of Perpetual Help” by Katie Forgette. It’s the early 1970s, American family of Irish heritage, mother maybe to get a job as the parish secretary, high school senior daughter, 12-year old sister, aunt whose marriage is heading for divorce, father Archie Bunker type automechanic. Lots of over-the-top humor, and the play later resolved on a serious note.
   The mother makes the elder daughter tell the younger sister the “facts of life,” menstruation and sex. Through some comic events, the 12-year old’s tape of her sister’s graphic instruction falls into the hands of the hard-line, uptight parish priest. Panic ensues.
   Now for the “occurrence.” The week-day matinee audience is busloads from Minnesota towns and mini-buses from retirement facilities such as the one I occupy, 100 percent elderly, probably 80 percent female.
   At one point, the elder daughter, whose favorite book is “Our Bodies, Our Selves”, reveals she may be pregnant. More panic, because the only thing middle-class Catholics have for “status” is their reputation, and… The mother asks why she didn’t read the chapter in the book about contraception; and the daughter says “The Church has rules against contraception.” (And here it comes)
   The mother shouts “The rules of the church are made by old men who haven’t changed a diaper in 2,000 years!” At that line, the audience breaks into cheers and applause – yes, cheers and applause from this elderly female Minnesota audience – and the cast has to vamp for 30 seconds until the applause dies down.
 

It did make me chuckle!

3

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 10, 2023, 09:06:07 PM »

Wybrew actually stated that the older Western idea continued to be present in the Eastern liturgies together with the newer idea of invoking the Spirit, but that the consecration was thought of in the newer way: as a result of invoking the Spirit rather than asking for the acceptance of the gifts upon the heavenly altar. See the last paragraph I quoted where he was dealing with the Clementine liturgy of the Apostolic Constitutions.

The idea of Christ both as victim and as priest, of course, is common to the entire liturgical heritage. I think of the old hymn: “Draw Near and Take” and how it uses that exactly: “Himself the victim and Himself the priest.” I think Wybrew’s point is that Cyril has introduced a novel way of understanding the Eucharist by his focus upon the presence of Christ AS the victim in order that He may be supplicated.

Do you know of any place in St. John Chrysostom’s writings (aside from the Divine Liturgy that bears his name, but is surely not entirely from his hand) where he attributes the consecration to the epiclesis as clearly as in the sermon on Judas he attributes it to the Words of Institution?

I would just say that Slavs in general LOVE bells. Don't expect hard and fast rules on them. There are local tradition even within Russia itself about exactly when bells are rung during the Divine Liturgy.  My parish (OCA) tolls the bells slowly and solemnly during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. There is a Ukrainian tradition of tolling the bells for every phrase of the Nicene Creed. At the hymn "It is truly meet" every bell in the church is tolled. There are also special peals for weddings and funerals, marriage announcements/anniversaries. There is even an entire Russian "school" or tradition of Bell Ringing. The bells are even given names. My parish has a collection of bells that were made in Moscow at the Sofrino Ecclesiastical Arts Factory.  Here is a picture:

I'm not, though I haven't exactly looked for it.  As I understand it -- as an Orthodox layman and not as a scholar or liturgist or specialist in any of these fields -- we don't really worry too much about the "when" of it all. We have an epiclesis for the same reason we invoke the Holy Spirit to come down on the waters of baptism or the oil in chrismation or unction.  Because we trust it is the Holy Spirit's work.  That's one reason we don't ring bells at the appropriate time.

Interestingly -- and as a complete aside -- other than on the censer, the only time I've heard bells in an Orthodox parish is this year, at and after Pascha.  We're attending an OCA parish now, which is in the Russian tradition.  We use the same version of "The Angel Cried" as we did in the Antiochian parish I attended. But in the OCA parish, bells are rung continuously during the hymn.  My oldest described it on Pascha eve "like a scene out of The Walking Dead," because all the little kids who were laying around sleepy got up when they heard the hymn start and went to these baskets full of little bells like zombies and started ringing them.  It is a beautiful tradition.  Perhaps Boris can weigh in on the meaning of that?

Russians love bells! Here are five bells we ring at my parish, all ordered from Russia. And we are training our young people how to ring them. (And how to protect their ears).

There is a great Slavic tradition of bell ringing and it varies a lot from place to place, even within Russia. You can't find a book or a set of rubrics that tell you precisely how to do it. You have to apprentice and learn from a master. That is how it is passed on. Every local tradition is going to do it slightly differently. Don't expect consistency.

My parish tolls the biggest bell very slowly during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. We also do a separate bell ringing for each Amen at the Epiclesis. At the hymn "It is truly meet" all the bells in the church are rung.  In the Ukrainian tradition (which some Russian parishes follow) a bell is rung for each phrase of the Nicene Creed. But this is not a universal practice. Don't expect it everywhere. There are also special peals for baptisms, marriages, funerals, anniversaries and the visit of a bishop. In the picture below you see one of our altar boys ringing the bells during the Divine Liturgy. You don't have to be an altar boy to ring. Anyone can be trained to do it. I have even seen some nuns that are darn good at it.

4

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 10, 2023, 08:48:06 PM »

If the reverence expressed by kneeling defines the lotus of consecration, then (outside of Paschatide) on weekdays most Orthodox communities stand during the Verba but kneel during the epiclesis.

"Most" because exceptions of many sorts can be found.

You will even find people prostrating during the Epiclesis in the Russian tradition. I do.

5

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 09, 2023, 04:39:03 PM »

Wybrew, again, seems to demonstrate that the invocation of the Spirit such as we find in St. James is a later form; later at any rate than the form in the Roman canon which St. Nicholas Cabasilas once called an “ascending” epiclesis (perhaps with the Angel carrying it being Christ Himself, the Messenger of God, resonance there with Hippolytus). He argues that the classic form of Eastern liturgies were largely influenced by St. Cyril of Jerusalem on this point. That seems to argue that the Liturgy of St. James could not be much before mid 4th century in origin, no? At least, as far as its epiclesis goes.

Interesting. Jungmann argues in his History of the Mass of the Roman Rite, that Rome originally had a descending epiclesis in its Mass just like the East did. He said that it disappeared from the Roman Rite after the language transition from Greek to Latin was made. I will try to look up the exact passage and post it later tonight.

6

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 09, 2023, 04:05:45 PM »

FWIW, I was taught that St. Basil's Liturgy was an abbreviated form of St. James Liturgy and that Chrysostom's Liturgy was an abbreviated form of St. Basil's.

7

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 09:54:49 PM »

You’re welcome, Tom. Let me point to an interesting passage in Luther that I think welds together what the East expresses in the Epiclesis and what the West believes about the consecratory nature of the Verba:

“For as soon as Christ says: ‘This is my Body,’ his body is present through the Word and the power of the Holy Spirit. If the Word is not there, it is mere bread; but as soon as the words are added they bring with them that of which they speak.” AE 36:341.

And yet, after the water rite, we lay hands on the baptized and pray for the Holy Spirit. An explanation given at seminary is that we can't ritualize everything that happens at the time it happens.

Reference to the Holy Spirit in Prayers of Thanksgiving in ELW

1
we ask you mercifully to accept our praise and thanksgiving
and with your Word and Holy Spirit to bless us, your servants,
and these your own gifts of bread and wine,
so that we and all who share in the body and blood of Christ
may be filled with heavenly blessing and grace,
and, receiving the forgiveness of sin,
may be formed to live as your holy people
and be given our inheritance with all your saints.

3
Holy God, we long for your Spirit.
Come among us. Bless this meal.
May your Word take flesh in us.
Awaken your people.
Fill us with your light.
Bring the gift of peace on earth.

4
O God of resurrection and new life:
Pour out your Holy Spirit on us and on these gifts of bread and wine.
Bless this feast. Grace our table with your presence.

5
Pour out upon us the Spirit of your love, O Lord,
and unite the wills of all who share this heavenly food,
the body and blood of Jesus Christ, our Lord;
to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be all honor and glory, now and forever.

6
Send now, we pray, your Holy Spirit,
that we who share in Christ's body and blood
may live to the praise of your glory
and receive our inheritance with all your saints in light.

7
Holy God, holy and merciful one, holy and compassionate,
send upon us and this meal your Holy Spirit,
whose breath revives us for life,
whose fire rouses us to love.
Enfold in your arms all who share this holy food.
Nurture in us the fruits of the Spirit,
that we may be a living tree,
sharing your bounty with all the world.

8
Send your Holy Spirit, our advocate,
to fill the hearts of all who share this bread and cup
with courage and wisdom to pursue love and justice in all the world.
Come, Spirit of freedom! And let the church say, Amen.

9
We pray for the gift of your Spirit:
in our gathering;
within this meal;
among your people;
throughout the world.

10
O God, you are Breath: send your Spirit on this meal.
O God, you are Bread: feed us with yourself.
O God, you are Wine: warm our hearts and make us one.
O God, you are Fire: transform us with hope.

11
Send your Spirit upon these gifts of your church;
gather into one all who share this bread and wine;
fill us with your Holy Spirit to establish our faith in truth,
that we may praise and glorify you through your Son Jesus Christ;
through whom all glory and honor are yours,
almighty Father, with the Holy Spirit, in your holy church, both now and forever.

Additional ones in All Creation Sings

Pour out your Holy Spirit in this meal,
and make us one in this community of faith
and with your people throughout the world.

Send forth your Spirit and renew the face of the earth.
Strengthen us for our journey with this meal,
the body and blood of Christ.
Give us a future that trusts in you and cares for your earth.
Empowered by your promises, we rise from our deaths to praise you again:

Come, Holy Spirit, make here the body of Christ:
in the breaking of the bread,
in justice for our broken world,
in rest for the weary, come, Holy Spirit.

These petitions tend to be more about the Spirit doing something with us - the people of God, than it is about (magically) changing the elements.

Why would changing the elements seem "magical" to anyone who believes in our Lord's Real Presence in the Eucharist?

8

Your Turn / Re: The Perfect Bible?

« on: May 08, 2023, 09:28:21 PM »

I have a copy of the Lutheran Edition of the Apocrypha (ESV). It is a very well done Bible. LOTS of historical information. And the editors took their time writing some very scholarly notes. I was quite impressed.

9

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 09:25:20 PM »

# 6 is the only one which even remotely approaches an Orthodox epiclesis. as that one alone refers to Christ's Body and Blood.

From the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Bread, says:

Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.

And the Priest blesses over the holy Bread and says:

And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Chalice, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, the holy Cup.

The Priest, blessing over the holy Chalice, says:

And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward both Holy Gifts, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, both the Holy Gifts.

The Priest, blessing both the Holy Bread and holy Chalice, says:

Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

Deacon: Amen. Amen. Amen.

The Priest says in a low voice:

So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation.

So simple. So beautiful. So profound. So ancient. So unchanging. So consistent.

10

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 03:31:52 PM »

The Epiclesis, on the other hand, is just incompatible with Lutheran theology, so I get removing that from a Lutheran perspective.

Why do you think the Epiclesis is incompatible with Lutheran theology?  Just curious.

Tom Pearson

I would think an Epiclesis would be incompatible with Lutheran theology because an Epiclesis indicates a belief in synergism. And Lutheran theology is strictly monergistic. So I don't think the two would work well together.

11

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 10:05:50 AM »

Secondly, I noticed they were singing most of the Liturgy in what we call Obikhod chant. This is a four part plain chant that was developed and perfect at the Russian Imperial Court Chapel in St. Petersburg in the 18th century by two composers: L'vov and Bakmetev. It is quite beautiful,, smooth as silk, and relies on very simple four part harmonies. It is very common in churches that trace their origin to the Moscow Patriarchate. One of the reasons for its popularity is that it is somewhat like Anglican chant and it is rather easy to teach a choir or a congregation how to sing it. My guess is that this is what their ancestors were using and they just kept it. It is congregational, it works, it is beautiful and there is no reason to discard it.

Side note here, after spending nearly 12 years in the Antiochian Archdiocese, we recently joined an OCA parish.  I won't get too deep into the reasons why, I'll just say they sent us a priest who is far more rigorist and monastic minded than the parish ever was before, and attempts to work with him and the bishop to sort out the issues were not fruitful, so to care for the spiritual health of my wife (who really struggled with a lot of this), I asked the priest's blessing to attend elsewhere. 

In any event, one of the hidden blessings is rediscovering Obikhod chant.  We used it in our Antiochian parish quite a bit, but it is nearly exclusive in this parish (though they also use some Byzantine chant and Kievan chant and other settings liturgically). 

After Pascha, a friend played a youtube clip of an African parish singing Christ is Risen, and about halfway through some drums came in and it became very lively.  Because they do that hymn in Byzantine Tone 5, she thought this clip was some exotic African tribal setting.  But it was just the very standard, recognizable Obikhod form of "Christ is Risen."  It's amazing the reach those simple tones have!

David: If you want to hear some really excellent Obikhod singing, listen to the parish of St. Symeon Orthodox Church (OCA) in Birmingham, Alabama. They may have the best choir of any Orthodox Church in the United States.
https://youtu.be/InxgD-fZBlw

12

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 09:49:27 AM »

You can hear them sing their liturgy here:

https://youtu.be/7XK8PSggAnA

Thanks for the musical links. I am eager to listen to them. And while I want to be polite, I am not impressed by the Ukrainian Lutheran Liturgy, not anymore that the RCC and the Council of Trent were impressed by Luther's Ordo Missae. I mean, it is "sort" of a Divine Liturgy, but they cut the guts out of it. They cut out the most important parts. I don't mean to be rude, but it is kind of a bastardized Divine Liturgy, if I can even call it that. Why do that when the omissions are just so obvious when the they could follow the example of Lutheran areas that are close to Ukraine like Sweden, Finland, Estonia and Latvia? They could even exchange clergy with them and preach through translators, if necessary. The unity of the Western Rite is a beautiful thing about Lutheranism. Why you would want to sacrifice that for a bastardized Byzantine Liturgy puzzles me greatly.

I didn't go all the way through, but I was curious about the Antiophons.  I understand Lutherans wanting to modify the 2nd Antiphon ("through the intercessions of the Theotokos O Savior, save us").  But I'm curious, why omit the little entrance, the 3rd Antiphon and the Entrance Hymn ("Come let us worship and fall down before Christ, O Son of God, Who art risen from the dead save us who sing unto Thee Alleluia! Alleluia!  Alleluia!"). 

This is speaking as someone who has been Orthodox for 13 years now, and so it's hard for me to put on a Lutheran hat and determine why changes were made, but I'd think a more faithful choice (to St. John's liturgy) would be to simply change the 2nd Antiphon and maintain the entrance.  The little entrance hearkens back to a time when the bishop would arrive with the holy books and process into the Church, so it is a celebration and proclamation of the Gospels, that is, the Scriptures.  It immediately precedes the Trisagion Hymn (which is retained) and the Epistle and Gospel readings.  Those strike me as perfectly in line with Lutheran understandings of the Service of the Word.

I suppose I understand a little better taking out the Epiclesis and the Great Entrance, perhaps the former more so than the latter.  The Great Entrance also hearkens back to a time when the faithful would bring the gifts for consecration and the deacons would go retrieve them and bring them to the altar.  That's why in hierarchical liturgies today, the bishop still remains behind the iconostasis and does not join the Great Entrance.  He remains to receive the gifts.  The Epiclesis, on the other hand, is just incompatible with Lutheran theology, so I get removing that from a Lutheran perspective.

Probably part of what is bugging Boris and I is the idea of meddling with such an ancient liturgy to begin with.  If it's incompatible with Lutheran theology, why use it at all? It wasn't intended to be a piecemeal service.  Taking so much out of it strikes me as consuming it like a meal, throwing away that which one deems unfit for consumption and attempting to retain the rest.  So perhaps whether one likes it or not depends on one's view of whether the parts discarded are appetizing or not.

[/b]

David, you read my mind!

13

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 08, 2023, 09:41:53 AM »

You can hear them sing their liturgy here:

https://youtu.be/7XK8PSggAnA

I listened to their entire Liturgy. And it was accompanied by some interesting photos. It would be even more interesting to see an actual video of it.  Here are my impressions:

First of all, I was pleasantly surprised at how much I could understand! Ukrainian really is quite close to Church Slavonic. I was able to understand about 80% of what they were singing.

Secondly, I noticed they were singing most of the Liturgy in what we call Obikhod chant. This is a four part plain chant that was developed and perfected at the Russian Imperial Court Chapel in St. Petersburg in the 18th century by two composers: L'vov and Bakmetev. It is quite beautiful,, smooth as silk, and relies on very simple four part harmonies. It is very common in churches that trace their origin to the Moscow Patriarchate. One of the reasons for its popularity is that it is somewhat like Anglican chant and it is rather easy to teach a choir or a congregation how to sing it. My guess is that this is what their ancestors were using and they just kept it. It is congregational, it works, it is beautiful and there is no reason to discard it.

I was pleasantly surprised that they chanted the Nicene Creed. And they did a great job with it too.

I was startled to hear an organ accompanying some of the congregational responses, but then I had to remind myself that these are Lutherans and the organ is a big part of the Lutheran tradition. They don't have to do it the Orthodox way.

From the pictures it was interesting how the church was decorated. I could detect, obviously, a Ukrainian folk influence, but also a German influence and an American influence. More on that later. But I did not find it offensive. It seemed innocent enough.

14

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 07, 2023, 08:39:04 PM »

But this Church was formed specifically because the authorities were trying to force these Byzantine Catholics to USE the Western Rite. It wasn’t their heritage! And they found in the Lutheran Confession (which, of course, speaks well of the Greek rite) the wherewithal to persist in their received heritage....

Exactly. If Rome can accommodate the Anglican patronage in the Ordinariate, and Antioch can accommodate a Western Rite, why can’t Byzantine Ukrainian Lutherans have a Byzantine Rite? What sense does it make to force them to use an unfamiliar German or Swedish/Finnish liturgy?

As someone who has been Orthodox for 26 years now, I think the Orthodox Western Rite is a tragic mistake, esp. in the United States where we need Orthodox unity. But I am a mere layman with no authority whatsoever, so my opinion isn't going to change anything.

15

Your Turn / Re: Ukrainian Lutheran Church-- Byzantine rite

« on: May 07, 2023, 08:35:20 PM »

My daughter just did a paper at Valpo exploring how it came to be that one of the three Lutheran denominations in Ukraine uses the Byzantine liturgy. The LCMS is set to vote on fellowship with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ukraine, but the one that uses the Eastern rite is called the Ukrainian Lutheran Church. It is a fascinating read, but she told me one thing that hampered her research was a dearth of sources. She ended up having to quote several anonymous posters on theological discussion sites.

We have a pretty solid group here on all things liturgical and Lutheran/Orthodox related, so I thought I'd ask for info and commentary. What would folks here think of a Lutheran church that used the Byzantine liturgy (with slight adaptations) instead of Western rite?

Outside of Ukraine, I would find it bizarre. Not that anyone would care.