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Messages - mariemeyer

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1
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 23, 2021, 08:07:48 PM »
Good grief! You and Marie carry a lot of baggage!

Again, the clergy-only BS you manufacture (as Steve says, your story keeps changing) is something I’ve never heard. And I hung out for quite a while years back at the Steadfast site among other places.

BTW, your “Try it this way” explanation is logically flawed.

Who might the above "you" be?  Am I in good company?

In any event, I respectfully ask that Donald Kirchner define  the "a lot of baggage" I carry.

Look forward to hearing clarification about the statement made about me.

Marie Meyer

2
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 22, 2021, 09:48:39 AM »
Moderator Peter Speckhard writes on the endless controversy......

"We have been down this road before because you proceed as though though nobody interacted with you. You lament that TLSB has a section about women but not men, and when multiple people point out why that makes perfect sense, you just keep pointing it out. You don’t say, “Okay, in that point you’re making sense,” or “I hadn’t looked at it that way,” nor do you disagree or even acknowledge the point was made. You just hold onto to your original lament. A year from now you’ll asking why TLSB has a section about women and not men."

Pr. Speckhard is on target when observing that I have not stated it makes sense to me that TLSB refers to wife and women as biblical topics without referring to husband and man as biblical topics.

Wife cannot be a biblical topic without husband also being a biblical topic.   The term wife defines a relationship with a husband.  You can't have one without the other.  IOW, no woman can be, or could never have been a wife, without a husband. 

The same is true for woman being a biblical topic without man being a biblical topic.  No woman can be human alone...so also, no man can be human alone.   Adam could never have known what it means to be a human, not God or one of the animals, without the woman God created to complete God's work of creating Man, male and female, in the image of God.

Finally, I find use of the term "lament" in reference to my posts condescending.  Reciprocal mutuality in any conversation avoids the persistent use of "you" in reference to how the other person has been, is now and will forever be misguided. 

Marie Meyer 

3
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 21, 2021, 02:18:25 PM »
The following appeared here on June1st...

"Rick Warren’s Saddleback church recently made headlines by ordaining three female leaders. I was grateful to see these women recognized and lent both the public authority and institutional accountability that comes from ordination. But when I read the news, I also thought with a heavy sigh, “Oh, here we go again.” I knew the debate about women’s roles in the church would dominate conversation all week, and I could already predict the rutted arguments I’d hear recited over and over."

Three weeks later and LCMS members of this list remain stuck in the same rut...defending an the order of creation structure where man and woman differ in origin, being, purpose and assigned non-interchangeable positions in relation to one another.

According to the accepted rational  the Genesis 2 biblical account of how God created the human male reveals God's design and will for an immutable pre-fall order of creation where the man, according to his visible created maleness, has natural precedence and authority in relation to woman. [/ This legal structure, known as the order of creation, does not apply in society.  It was for the sake of order and unity in the home and  among the people of God that God ordained the order.   

In the home and among the people of God, the order of creation structure binds God's authority to the man's position in the home and church.  NT texts are interpreted on the basis of the order of creation structure.

In society, God is free to work through man and woman to preserve creation. What Luther referred to as the orders of preservation. 

To date no one here has asked if God the Son violated the order of creation by taking on our human nature...by coming down to us as True God and true Man... by revealing the nature of God, not to regard the lowly estate of a young Jewish as a barrier to God the Son becoming a human man, but the freedom of God to act as God in, through and from the virgin Mary.

Was the incarnation of God the Son the ultimate violation of the order of creation as defined in LCMS literature?

Marie Meyer
No. Not as I see it. The Incarnation is a mystery we accept without understanding based on revelation. In some ways, so is the distinction between male and female. It isn’t just Gen. 2, it is also other places in Scripture that address the matter specifically and inference from Scripture that address the issue more generally or tangentially. It seems to me your position does an end around to avoid the Scriptures that address it by beginning with a set of foundational interpretations and using human reasoning from there to make things make sense even in opposition to divine revelation.

Given that I am a woman not a man, I have never played football.  I do, however,  understand what it means to attempt an end run.

The above strikes me as a misguided attempt to deny, dismiss, deflect and or disregard the fact that the order of creation, as defined and applied it the LCMS originates, in natural human reason. IOW, it's a classic end run to avoid  the one foundational Law to which man and woman are both subject, the first commandment... that we Let God, revealed as I AM WHo I AM for you, man and woman, be God in the life of man and woman.  No chain of being or chain of command end runs allowed. 

God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, relate as God to man and to woman.  Each are present as God in the life of man and woman.  Each are a living presence as God in the life of baptized man and woman.  Each are members of the One Holy Body of Christ who, but the power of the Holy Spirit grow up into the fullness of Christ, the One Head of the Church.

Marie Meyer



But we have been this road before.   

4
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 20, 2021, 04:37:43 PM »
The following appeared here on June1st...

"Rick Warren’s Saddleback church recently made headlines by ordaining three female leaders. I was grateful to see these women recognized and lent both the public authority and institutional accountability that comes from ordination. But when I read the news, I also thought with a heavy sigh, “Oh, here we go again.” I knew the debate about women’s roles in the church would dominate conversation all week, and I could already predict the rutted arguments I’d hear recited over and over."

Three weeks later and LCMS members of this list remain stuck in the same rut...defending an the order of creation structure where man and woman differ in origin, being, purpose and assigned non-interchangeable positions in relation to one another.

According to the accepted rational  the Genesis 2 biblical account of how God created the human male reveals God's design and will for an immutable pre-fall order of creation where the man, according to his visible created maleness, has natural precedence and authority in relation to woman. [/ This legal structure, known as the order of creation, does not apply in society.  It was for the sake of order and unity in the home and  among the people of God that God ordained the order.   

In the home and among the people of God, the order of creation structure binds God's authority to the man's position in the home and church.  NT texts are interpreted on the basis of the order of creation structure.

In society, God is free to work through man and woman to preserve creation. What Luther referred to as the orders of preservation. 

To date no one here has asked if God the Son violated the order of creation by taking on our human nature...by coming down to us as True God and true Man... by revealing the nature of God, not to regard the lowly estate of a young Jewish as a barrier to God the Son becoming a human man, but the freedom of God to act as God in, through and from the virgin Mary.

Was the incarnation of God the Son the ultimate violation of the order of creation as defined in LCMS literature?

Marie Meyer


5
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 17, 2021, 05:41:08 PM »
Marie, I think Tom, Peter, and Don are correctly describing the writer's intention in this case. A philosophical ontology was not in my mind as editor. As I've noted, I had not experienced this use of the term in this category of doctrine before seeing it on ALPB. It appears to be a Roman Catholic use, although someone cited Aulen saying something similar, perhaps because of views about apostolic succession that he shares with Roman Catholics.

Pr. Engelbrecht, several characteristics of TLSB are perplexing to me.

For example: wives and women are listed as biblical topics. For some reason, neither husbands or men are listed as biblical topics.  How can this be? Are men and woman so different that only women and wives are "topics" addressed in the Bible?

The 65 scholars consulted to write comments on the books of Scripture, introductions to the books and study notes began with the premise that a created difference between man and woman is that  men know the mind and will of God in ways not given to women.  They are designated by God to  teach woman the nature of her being, her purpose and the order of her relationship to men.  Rather than being "topics" in the Bible, men are the ones designated by God  to teach women and wives are "topic" in the Bible. 

Study notes begin with a God ordained "order of creation" that is a functional hierarchy of knowledge. How God created man and woman, man first, woman from the man, woman for the man, man having the authority to name woman all are given as reasons revealing God's will that man be the more responsible "party" in the order of creation.  It's all very rational.   

According to the TLSB man's sin is that he failed to exercise his authority as the head of the human community.  From the beginning, prior to the fall, man's role was to rule over woman.  "The order God established at creation has not been altered by the fall. Together, Adam and Eve will continue to rule over creation (1:28)."   However,   "God also intends that Adam remain God's steward, responsible for cultivating creation (vv, 17,23) and that the husband will remain the head of the family."     That women may now experience "the order of creation" as troublesome and a source of suffering is a direct result of the fall. 

What does this mean??? What about the pre-Fall "order of creation" might now be "troublesome" to woman?

Another confusing dimension of TLSB  is how the Incarnation of God the Son as the true Son of Man, born of the virgin Mary, is dismissed in study notes and comments.  Again the question, "What were the biblical scholars thinking about Mary, mother of God the Son incarnate as the Son of Man, when they stated that she was"confused by his calling," that "she did not agree with his decision to  leave the carpentry trade and live like a rabbi," and that "Jesus down played the suggestion that she was especially blessed because of their earthly calling."

Ironically, readers of the TLSB are directed to Luther's Magnificat Commentary.  I wonder how many of the consultants read where Luther states that Mary, as taught by the Holy Spirit, teaches us how to know God?  Given that the majority of laymen and laywomen have not read Luther on the Magnificat, why was Luther not quoted in TLSB comments on Mary? Why was the uniqueness of her invitation from God to be God's helper in the Incarnation ignored? 

The endless controversy concerns the biblical witness to how God, from the beginning, worked as God in the creation of Man, male and female in the image of God.  I understand a Lutheran theology of creation to beCreatio ex Nihilo.  In the Magnificat Commentary Luther states that the nature of God to "work from nothing"  remained the same in the incarnation of God the Son as the One true Son of Man as at the creation of woman from man.   

Whether at the creation of woman from man or the Incarnation of Jesus the Christ from a woman, God's work originated in and revealed the nature of  God's Divine gracious goodness in the life of man and woman.  Mary, as taught by the Holy Spirit, knew that what God accomplished from her for all the good of all humanity, was all about God.  God's work from her for human did not place her above any milk maid or any shepherd boy.

Marie Meyer
   

6
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 15, 2021, 08:13:41 PM »
Peter writes, "There simply is no way to understand humanity as created or salvation history as revealed without acknowledging the sharp distinction between male and female that is not part of the fall but part of the original creation and redeemed in the New Creation."


So how is the pre-fall "sharp distinction" of man and woman played out in the Church... in the home...in society?

As I understand the NT, the oneness of man and woman who are ONE Holy Body of Christ, is the work of God the Holy Spirit.  Due to the Living Presence of God the Holy Spirit working through the Means of Grace, man and woman who are the Church are now of one mind, heart, spirit and will.... the mind, heart, spirit and will of Christ, Head of the Church. 

Through Baptism, they are branches grafted to the same vine...IOW, the inner life of Christ is now a living reality in man and woman.  Both the Christian man and the Christian woman are changed from within even as they remain distinctly male or female. Rather than being directed inward toward self, including their distinct sexuality, both are directed to know God as revealed in Christ. 

According to Luther, a true biblical theology of creation, including the creation of man and woman, begins not with the creature, but the Creator. From a Lutheran perspective, it is crucial that we begin with the grace and freedom of God at creation. We, neither man nor woman, can understand or know the will of our good and gracious Creator apart from God's revelation of God in the Incarnate Son of God born of the virgin Mary.

If we try to understand God's work of creation in Genesis one and two apart from God revealed in Christ, we end with an understanding of creation that originates in natural reason.  The key to understanding God's work of creating Man, male and female, God's presence and promises to the people of Israel and God's presence in the birth, life, death and resurrection of the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Mary, the Mother of God the Son incarnate as the Son of Man, "got it."  What God accomplished in and through her through for the world is a work as significant as the creation of woman from a man ...if not more so.  Adam was asleep when God created woman from Adam for Adam.

Mary carried the Son of God in her womb for 9 months, she suffered the pain of giving birth to the Son of God become the Son of Man and then nursed him from her breasts.  Yet Mary did not  consider what God accomplished from her for the sake of the world as anything that set her above or apart from any milk maid... 

In the Magnificat Luther states that Mary, by her words and the example of her experience, teaches us how to know God....if we would but listen to her.  What might Mary teach us, man and woman, about God's work of creating woman from man?  Is it about the nature of God in relation to man and woman... or about an immtuable order of creation structure order of being structure of God, man, woman, animals?

Marie Meyer

Marie, you said:  "...or about an immtuable order of creation structure order of being structure of God, man, woman, animals?"

I'm not sure where you get the idea the LCMS - now or ever - suggest that women are of a different ONTOLOGICAL category than men.  As Peter as stressed to you numerous times, men and woman are both human beings created in God's image and yet we are also male and female.  We are ONTOLOGICALLY the same in our relationship to God, but God has given us different roles and vocations as male and female in His creation.  These two facts are not in opposition to each other.
Pastor Eckstein:

Suggest you read the CPH book LadyLike Living Biblically.  It passed doctrinal review, was recommended by President Harrison and Professor Peter Scaer.

Human is a category of being...male or female is not.  Human males and human females belong to the same category of being, human.  They are different in several ways, most certainly in that men are fathers, not mothers.  They most certainly are not spiritually different.

It's been 60 years since I took a few philosophy classes, but we seem to be operating with a different understanding of ontology.  I do not understand the Bible to say anything about "roles." I believe that man and woman were both created for the same purpose,  to give God glory, to be God's stewards in creation, to be God representatives on earth and above all, to know and be known to God.

marie   I

7
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 15, 2021, 09:47:56 AM »


Marie, I’m at a loss to discover where you think I disagree with you on any of this other than your last sentence, which is a false alternative. I don’t think it is at all fair to describe the LCMS position as though somehow woman were some level of creature between human and animal. Even the must arch-conservative advocate of patriarchy would not describe their views that way. The immutable order of creation is that men are men and women are women, and nobody is neither or both. To be human is to be either male or female, and they aren’t the same thing. 

Peter,

The so called "false alternative" appears in CPH publications that have  passed  the LCMS doctrinal review. (I have previously called attention to them.)  The critical issue is how "the order of creation" as a chain of being and/or a chain of command appears in LCMS writings including CTCR reports, Bible Studies, CPH books and Study Bibles. 

Previously you wrote," There simply is no way to understand humanity as created or salvation history as revealed without acknowledging the sharp distinction between male and female that is not part of the fall but part of the original creation and redeemed in the New Creation."

Perhaps I do not understand what is meant by "the sharp distinction between male and female that originates in Genesis two.What is the "sharp distinction" in question?  Does it refer to a distinction in being? in purpose? in the relationship between man and woman? a difference in authority?
 
We agree that humans are distinct as male and female.  We agree that Genesis 1-5 reveals God's will that Man, male and female, made in the image of God, were created as God's representatives on earth, stewards of God's creation and procreators of humans who would know and be known to God as Adam and Eve knew and were known to God.  IOW, the relationship between God and humans was to be an intimate relationship of unlike to unlike, Creator/creature, and like to like, God and human being good.   I think we agree that neither male or female could accomplish God's will for creation without the other.

We also agree that God created man and woman in different ways.  The man was created first. The woman was created from the man flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone.  The woman was created for the man who could not accomplish God's will for humanity alone.  He needed a "helper," a counterpart that would be like him, yet unlike him. 

Where we begin to differ is in the following... "The point is simply that recognizing the distinction between male and female and recognizing that God made them different and in some ways with different, complementary purposes in no way means God doesn't relate to men and women equally according to His nature as God."   

First - I bag the terms "equal" or "equality." I do not think it's a biblical term used in reference to man and woman. 

The presenting issue is how the different manner in which God created man and woman reveal that they have "different complementary purposes?"  What are the two different complementary purposes for which God created man and woman?  Where do they apply? in the home? in the Church? in society.  If they belong to a pre-Fall deep distinction that belongs to being male and female, then the different purposes have to apply in society.

Whether in the home, the Church or society, man and woman are who they are.  The pre-Fall order of creation distinction has to apply when and wherever they are.. that is to say it belongs to their being.  It is simply not possible to state that the deep created distinction does not apply beyond the home and church.

Thus, my question remains, "What is the deep created distinction revealed as God's will in different manner God created man and woman?" How are we to live out the deep created distinction in the home? the Church? society?

Marie



   

8
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 14, 2021, 05:52:52 PM »
Peter writes, "There simply is no way to understand humanity as created or salvation history as revealed without acknowledging the sharp distinction between male and female that is not part of the fall but part of the original creation and redeemed in the New Creation."


So how is the pre-fall "sharp distinction" of man and woman played out in the Church... in the home...in society?

As I understand the NT, the oneness of man and woman who are ONE Holy Body of Christ, is the work of God the Holy Spirit.  Due to the Living Presence of God the Holy Spirit working through the Means of Grace, man and woman who are the Church are now of one mind, heart, spirit and will.... the mind, heart, spirit and will of Christ, Head of the Church. 

Through Baptism, they are branches grafted to the same vine...IOW, the inner life of Christ is now a living reality in man and woman.  Both the Christian man and the Christian woman are changed from within even as they remain distinctly male or female. Rather than being directed inward toward self, including their distinct sexuality, both are directed to know God as revealed in Christ. 

According to Luther, a true biblical theology of creation, including the creation of man and woman, begins not with the creature, but the Creator. From a Lutheran perspective, it is crucial that we begin with the grace and freedom of God at creation. We, neither man nor woman, can understand or know the will of our good and gracious Creator apart from God's revelation of God in the Incarnate Son of God born of the virgin Mary.

If we try to understand God's work of creation in Genesis one and two apart from God revealed in Christ, we end with an understanding of creation that originates in natural reason.  The key to understanding God's work of creating Man, male and female, God's presence and promises to the people of Israel and God's presence in the birth, life, death and resurrection of the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Mary, the Mother of God the Son incarnate as the Son of Man, "got it."  What God accomplished in and through her through for the world is a work as significant as the creation of woman from a man ...if not more so.  Adam was asleep when God created woman from Adam for Adam.

Mary carried the Son of God in her womb for 9 months, she suffered the pain of giving birth to the Son of God become the Son of Man and then nursed him from her breasts.  Yet Mary did not  consider what God accomplished from her for the sake of the world as anything that set her above or apart from any milk maid... 

In the Magnificat Luther states that Mary, by her words and the example of her experience, teaches us how to know God....if we would but listen to her.  What might Mary teach us, man and woman, about God's work of creating woman from man?  Is it about the nature of God in relation to man and woman... or about an immtuable order of creation structure order of being structure of God, man, woman, animals?

Marie Meyer

9
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 14, 2021, 10:44:37 AM »
Moderator Peter  Speckhard writes...
"I don’t think anything I believe or have stated in these endless discussions interferes with the idea that every human being should let God be God. God speaks. He spoke through St. Paul. God (not St. Paul, not men generally, but God the Creator of us all) revealed that men and women are equally His children, but are not the same. Letting God be God means listening attentively when God reveals things in Genesis 2 or in the NT epistles. Refusing to let God be God would lead us to begin with what we know of God and extrapolate from human reasoning what He must think about men and women in defiance of what He actually said. A fully theocentric worldview is not in the least bit threatened by the sharp distinction between male and female God wove into His creation and His story."

My question, "What is the sharp distinction between male and female that God wove into His creation and His story?"

During my life I have been a daughter, sister, woman, wife, mother, grandmother and now, a great-grandmother. In each area of life the defining relationship that shaped my identity, the purpose for which I was created and all my relationships, whether in the home, the church or society, was God's relationship to me. 

Neither my father, nor any of the LCMS men who were my pastor, parochial school teachers, confirmation class teacher or college theology professors, taught me that God related to me or was present in my life on the basis of any "sharp" distinction between male and female. The day of my marriage to Bill, his father preached a sermon in which both of us were directed to live out our marriage relationship with Christ at the center of our marriage. (Something about  a cord of three strands not being broken.)

Humans are distinct as male and female, a distinction that belongs to who we are as creatures, not God the Creator. 

The question is whether God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit, relate to man and woman according to Their nature as God, or according to the created "sharp distinction" between man and woman. IOW, is the living presence of God in the life of the men and women  whom God claims as His sons and daughters according to the nature of God or their distinct sexuality?  Is the One Holy Catholic Church, the ONE Body of Christ divided in two parts according to distinct sexuality of the many men and woman who ARE the Church, the Bride of Christ.

marie meyer

10
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 13, 2021, 03:01:10 PM »
One possible way to address "the endless controversy" is to begin with God, the nature of God by Whom and for Whom Man, male and female were created.  Both were to subdue the earth, both were to procreate sons and daughters, both were to know and be known to God.  Knowing and being known to God originated in their being holy as God's was holy and letting God be God, the source of all that was good in their life. (see Genesis one)

Thus, human life that originated with God, was created for God's purpose and was by God's design theocentric.  The essence of every human being whether male or female, their purpose (telos) and their relationship (ethics) to one another was to "Let God be God" in each of their lives and in the life of one another.

God promised to be with them according to God's nature as the source of their being.  They were to trust they had been given all that was good and necessary for their life as Man, male and female recreated in the image of God.  God would relate to each of them,  male and female, as their God and Image Maker. 

From the beginning the  common human vocation of male and female, was to give God glory in their daily life.

Beginning in Genesis and continuing through Revelation God related to man and to woman according to God's nature as the I Am WHO I AM for you. They were created to know GOD as the source of all that was necessary for a good and holy life and to be known to God as God's Beloved.   They, man and woman, were created to be the glory of God's creation.

Including "the order of creation" as a Biblical topic, whether defined as a chain of being and or an order of command, originates in the deductive reason of natural human reason.... not the mind of God as revealed in the written and Incarnate Word.

Unless it can be demonstrated that God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman in any way other than according to their nature as the I AM Who I Am for you, the claim that a static immutable structured "order of creation" is a Biblical Topic or doctrine must be re-examined.  The ultimate issue is God's order for living relationship of the ONE true living God to man and woman and their letting God be God in their life.

No where does the different  manner in which God created man and woman reveal God's intent that God would relate to woman as God in and through the man.  Both were to let God be God in their life.   

Marie Meyer

11
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 13, 2021, 11:01:31 AM »

On the basis of my limited education I understand ontology to deal with the essential being of God as the "I am who I am."  The being (beingness) of God is God.  Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not ontologically distinct categories with the larger ontologically distinct category of God. 


Yes, ontology does deal with Being.  But unless you are a certain kind of thinker, Being is another way of talking about the concept of "existence"; and since there are many different modes of "existence" (many different kinds of existing things), Being is often treated as a plural concept, not a unitary concept.  That's why I speak of ontology in terms of an inventory, or a catalogue, of existants.

I would have supposed that the Creeds (especially the Athanasian Creed) regard the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as ontologically distinct categories ("Persons"), not to be confused.  But I'm not sure the Church can penetrate any deeper into that ontological mystery than the Church already has.

Tom Pearson   

I understand ontology to deal with basic categories and which of these entities exist on the most fundamental level.
   
At the most fundamental level God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are GOD.   That is the essence of their Being - there nothing other than the Three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,  that are God.  Each is not a category of being other than God.

At the most fundamental level the human female and the human female are human. Being human is the category of being which both are.  is there   Animals are male and female, but that it not their category being.

Adam (ish) existed as a human before the creation of the woman (ishshah).   He recognized her as "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh."   The woman, was, like him, God's creation, a fellow human being. Without the woman God brought to man, he could never have known what it was to be or been the man God created Adam to be.  He recognized that she was a human being like him, but that she was also unlike him. 

According to The Lutheran Study Bible, the man Adam, in his role as God's steward, gives a name "to this category of created beings, just as he has given a name to the rest of God's creation."

The not so subtle note suggests the man did not see her as the only being who was"bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh,"  but as a creature that was a "different category of beings."  I suspect he could "see" that she was a sexual being just as animals are sexual being....but she was like him as a human being... a standing, walking creation of God with whom he could communicate and " be one flesh. 

His one flesh union with her would be that of two human beings (ish and ishshah).  Unlike, God they were male and female.  Together they were human beings, created in the image of God for fellowship with God as stewards of God's creation. Like the animals they were male  and female, unlike the animals they were human beings created in the image of God to know and be known to God.  To know God as their Creator by Whom and for Whom they were created.  Together they were to be the glory of God within God's creation.   

Thus the ontological classifications of being after God's creation of woman, ishshah, were God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), human (male and female), and the many animals who, like the  human man and woman were sexual beings. 

Being male or female belongs to being human and animal. Being male or female does not define what it means to be human not God. 
     

12
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 12, 2021, 08:25:39 PM »


Is Luther's understanding of vocation associated with the "ontological status" of human beings created as male and female?  IOW, is Luther's understanding of vocation associated with our common human nature or is vocation  defined according to  the distinct male and female sexuality that belongs to our human nature?
     

Aside from ancient formulations like "religious vocation" or "spiritual vocation," the concept of "vocation" is a fairly modern one (William Placher has a fine anthology on "vocation," Callings, which has passages from the early church Fathers, through Luther, to  twentieth century Christian writers; but the term "vocation" does not show up until the latter historical period).  So a Lutheran doctrine, or even a coherent concept, of "vocation" has to be extrapolated from scattered remarks on relationships, labor, occupational training and employment, social roles, moral obligations, and the like.

So there's no definitive answer I know of, Deaconess Meyer, to your question.  As far as I understand (and I haven't read everything in Luther on this topic, so this is subject to correction), a plausible argument can be (and has been) made that when Luther is speaking about marriage and family, male and female are ontologically distinct categories within the larger ontologically distinct category of the (sinful) human person.  That may well carry the implication that males and females in designated relationships (such as marriage) may have different vocational roles.  But I would argue that such vocational roles are temporal and mundane, and do not influence the relationship that males and females alike have with the Triune God.  This seems pretty obvious to me: I don't know why it would be controversial.

What I am still curious about, and trying to figure out an answer for, is the question of whether the very existence of "vocations" (and of "vocational roles") can be legitimately described as being built in to the original act of Creation.  I've always been puzzled why those who speak of "order(s) of creation" are so singularly focused on the sole issue of ordering male-female relationships.  I'm more interested (because I think it is more important, and more central to human experience) in the "order of vocation" that we are all called to live out daily.

I hope that is helpful, Deaconess Meyer.

Tom Pearson

Thanks for your response...  I do not understand the following...

"As far as I understand (and I haven't read everything in Luther on this topic, so this is subject to correction), a plausible argument can be (and has been) made that when Luther is speaking about marriage and family, male and female are ontologically distinct categories within the larger ontologically distinct category of the (sinful) human person. "


The concept of "male and female are ontologically distinct categories within the larger ontologically distinct category of the (sinful) human person. "  eludes me.

On the basis of my limited education I understand ontology to deal with the essential being of God as the "I am who I am."  The being (beingness) of God is God.  Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not ontologically distinct categories with the larger ontologically distinct category of God. 

So also, being human is who man and woman are ...that is the category of being to which male and female belong.  The essence of our being is that we are human.  Being male or female belongs to our human nature.  Neither man or woman can be human alone.   Being male or female is not a distinct category within the larger ontologically distinct category of being human.   

Marie Meyer

13
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 12, 2021, 03:31:12 PM »

“A bad day is when I lie in bed and think of things that might have been.”

In the sermon I preached for my stillborn daughter’s funeral I spoke about the temptation to live in a world of what might have been. But such a world has no Creator. I called it the deceiver’s empty realm of empty promises. If potentialities are realities, do they always exist? If there was potential for Hitler to die young and never rise to power, must there be a world where that happened? Or does every moment of time forever destroy what irrevocable potentialities do not materialize. If every “what might be” is in some sense real, what distinguishes it from what might have been? It time itself the engine of grinding possibilities into realities, which therefore permanently destroys the unused possibilities?


Well, from the things I've been reading recently, this is an exercise in biblical metaphysics, and it's an occasional hot topic among those who go in for this sort of arcana.  So here's how the game is played (as best I can tell):  You're right to say that "such a world has no Creator."  That because the realm of "possibilities" is not a world as we know it.  Those limitless "possibilities" exist prior to the instantiation of any particular world (such as ours).  Therefore, "possible worlds" all have the status of pre-Creation options for instantiating an actual world.  But those "possible worlds" all have a type of metaphysical existence, simply as "possibilities."  So one option for God was to create a world slightly different from the one we actually occupy; perhaps a world in which particle physics, say, is not quite so weird.

Thus, the phrase "In the beginning" (Genesis 1:1), as George Rahn points out, is strictly as temporal phrase, identifying the first moment of instantiation of one particular "possible world" -- ours.  But it's not the only world God could have made.

Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716, and a Lutheran), for instance, goes to great lengths in his Discourse on Metaphysics, to explain how God created "the best of all possible worlds," since God selected (from a range of pre-existing, and still existing, "possible worlds") our own world as the "best possible."  More recently, Alvin Plantinga (not a Lutheran) has made the same argument in an effort to defeat the intractable "problem of evil."

It turns out, then, that this stuff isn't all that new or unusual.  But it is metaphysics, which, I suppose, is an acquired taste.  And it is an effort to make some comprehensive, systematic sense of the biblical text.  Luther did it on occasion, Melanchthon did it in spades, and the later Lutheran scholastics (including Leibniz) -- oh, my.

So what else might be the objection to treating vocation as having ontological status?

Tom Pearson

Is Luther's understanding of vocation associated with the "ontological status" of human beings created as male and female?  IOW, is Luther's understanding of vocation associated with our common human nature or is vocation  defined according to  the distinct male and female sexuality that belongs to our human nature?

Marie Meyer       

14
Your Turn / Re: Another contribution to the endless controversy
« on: June 10, 2021, 08:03:22 PM »
Jeff simply notes:

now 17+ pages of regurgitating the same arguments that have been used by both sides time and again.  Might it be time to shut this one down?  Moderators, what say you?

Please.

Amen.

If only the thread would recognize how, within the LCMS, natural human reason misuses the written and Incarnate Word to justify a pre-Fall order of creation that mirrors a chain of being world view.  I understand your frustration.  To understand mine I would encourage you to obtain a copy of THE Lutheran Study Bible published by CPH.  The study notes, beginning with Genesis, weave a thread supporting an ideology where the human man displaces God's rightful place in the life of woman. 

My thinking is informed by Luther's Commentary on Galatians, his Magnificat Commentary, Let God Be God by Philip Watson and Grace and Reason by Bryan Gerrish.   

I never aspired to be ordained. Consecrated as a Deaconess in 1960, I served a parish for two years prior to marrying my husband after his vicarage year.  After that my calling was  "home maker" (aka wife and mom) and volunteer when opportunities presented themselves.  This included several years on the ALPB Board, the Board of Lutheran Bible Translators, LIRS and Board for Lutheran Social Services of New York City.

Along the way a completed a year of CPE at the Nassau County Medical Center. Within the LCMS this was perceived by some as a first step toward ordination.  In truth, it was my desire to better understand the LCMS as a family system as well as my place in my Otten family of origin. My life experience taught me that there are times one has to love a brother in Christ enough to question how they arrive at a chain of being world view on the basis of Genesis 1-5  where God is said to have assigned woman a subordinate identity, function and place in relation to man. 

Marie Meyer

15
Your Turn / Re: New Podcast Episode on Herman John Otten
« on: June 10, 2021, 04:25:50 PM »
At this this time I respectively request a "point of personal privilege."

Now secret here, I am the younger sister of Herman John Otten.  Also no secret is that my picture appeared in CN with some regularity as a "feminist" promoting the ordination of women. To say this was painful is an understatement.

Also true is that I loved my brother.  The last time I saw Herman we were in his office. Much to my surprise, hanging on the wall was a piece of art work I created for him years ago.  The conversation was in many ways like that of an older brother and a younger sister.   I always looked up to my good looking brother.   The fact that he married my Valpo roommate, fellow deaconess Grace Anderson, was another tie that bound us together. 

In any event at the close of our final visit, Herman, not one to express feelings said, "I love you, Marie."

Due to the fact that Herman's funeral service was held so quickly following his death and getting from Bethel, CT to New Haven, MO was no easy task I was not able to attend the funeral.  I arrived a day late, but was able to spend a week with Grace.

I would ask that this thread by closed.

Marie Otten Meyer

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