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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Steven W Bohler on December 24, 2021, 03:05:53 PM

Title: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Steven W Bohler on December 24, 2021, 03:05:53 PM
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/12/the_evangelical_lutheran_churchs_first_transgender_bishop_is_being_booted.html
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 24, 2021, 03:08:40 PM
They always eat their own.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Birkholz on December 24, 2021, 03:53:03 PM
The posted article is long on rhetoric, but short on detail. 

More info here:
https://www.christianpost.com/amp/lutheran-lgbt-group-suspends-trans-elca-bishop-for-alleged-racism.html (https://www.christianpost.com/amp/lutheran-lgbt-group-suspends-trans-elca-bishop-for-alleged-racism.html)

ELM's statement:
https://www.elm.org/2021/12/20/elm-board-statement-regarding-bishop-rohrer/ (https://www.elm.org/2021/12/20/elm-board-statement-regarding-bishop-rohrer/)

And some background to the situation:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2021/12/elca-fires-whistleblower-rev-nelson-rabell-gonzalez/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2021/12/elca-fires-whistleblower-rev-nelson-rabell-gonzalez/)
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 24, 2021, 04:14:52 PM
The posted article is long on rhetoric, but short on detail. 

More info here:
https://www.christianpost.com/amp/lutheran-lgbt-group-suspends-trans-elca-bishop-for-alleged-racism.html (https://www.christianpost.com/amp/lutheran-lgbt-group-suspends-trans-elca-bishop-for-alleged-racism.html)

ELM's statement:
https://www.elm.org/2021/12/20/elm-board-statement-regarding-bishop-rohrer/ (https://www.elm.org/2021/12/20/elm-board-statement-regarding-bishop-rohrer/)

And some background to the situation:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2021/12/elca-fires-whistleblower-rev-nelson-rabell-gonzalez/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2021/12/elca-fires-whistleblower-rev-nelson-rabell-gonzalez/)

I find it hard to take the use of non-binary pronouns seriously.  Especially in the third article, but also in the second.

Bp. Rohrer is a trans woman right?  My English teacher is probably drinking heavily these days.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 24, 2021, 04:38:34 PM
She remains in office as an ELCA bishop.
I do not believe that the organization that suspended her is an official ELCA entity.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Michael Slusser on December 24, 2021, 05:49:03 PM
She remains in office as an ELCA bishop.
I do not believe that the organization that suspended her is an official ELCA entity.
They remains in office as an ELCA bishop. The organization, ELM, suspended them from the LGBT+ group than fought for their right to be ordained in the ELCA.

The third article posted by Birkholz, by Prof. Leah Schade, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2021/12/elca-fires-whistleblower-rev-nelson-rabell-gonzalez/ is actually growing into a series of articles. She is clearly an advocate, and does it clearly.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 24, 2021, 06:49:52 PM
They remains in office as an ELCA bishop.

Fr. Michael highlights why this strikes me so wrong.  We take a plural pronoun, but because of this silly fiction that she is not a she (even though she is actually a he, but I can at least grant that bit of fiction for the sake of politeness), we use the plural pronoun, and the only way to avoid further absurdity is to pair it with a singular verb.  So "they.....remains."

It's utterly stupid, but here we are, in 2021, pretending English is not a language with rules.

I'm not aiming this at you, Fr. Michael.  I hope that is clear.  I only chose your post to highlight it because it did so in such spot-on fashion.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Terry W Culler on December 24, 2021, 07:27:52 PM
Is everyone in the ELCA expected to write about people in that laughingly bizarre way?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 24, 2021, 08:49:09 PM
No, Pastor Cullor, no.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Michael Slusser on December 24, 2021, 09:02:19 PM
They remains in office as an ELCA bishop.

Fr. Michael highlights why this strikes me so wrong.  We take a plural pronoun, but because of this silly fiction that she is not a she (even though she is actually a he, but I can at least grant that bit of fiction for the sake of politeness), we use the plural pronoun, and the only way to avoid further absurdity is to pair it with a singular verb.  So "they.....remains."

It's utterly stupid, but here we are, in 2021, pretending English is not a language with rules.

I'm not aiming this at you, Fr. Michael.  I hope that is clear.  I only chose your post to highlight it because it did so in such spot-on fashion.
No offense, David Garner. I'm just seeing how this new suggestion plays out in practice.

Peace and blessed Christmas,
Michael
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 25, 2021, 12:03:42 AM
Does anyone remember "Pat" on Saturday Night Live?  Was s/he a man or a woman or something else?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 05:19:33 AM
And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Steven W Bohler on December 25, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?

Obviously it IS "critically important" to know a person's gender or sexual orientation.  Else one risks being destroyed personally, professionally, socially, and financially if using the wrong pronouns or somehow offending such a person.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Michael Slusser on December 25, 2021, 09:24:20 AM
And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?
And why, in the boilerplate signature at the foot of emails from the University of Edinburgh, is there a line "My personal pronouns are . . "?

It isn't just the ELCA in California.

Peace to persons of good will, and others,
Michael
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 09:59:25 AM
Pastot Bohler:
Obviously it IS "critically important" to know a person's gender or sexual orientation.  Else one risks being destroyed personally, professionally, socially, and financially if using the wrong pronouns or somehow offending such a person.
Me:
I hope you’re speaking sarcastically.
You can’t really be afraid that you’re going to be damaged by what gay or lesbian or transgender people think of you.
And if you give anybody, repeat anybody, power over the pronouns that you use in “normal“ English, then that “anybody” has won.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Steven W Bohler on December 25, 2021, 10:16:46 AM
Pastot Bohler:
Obviously it IS "critically important" to know a person's gender or sexual orientation.  Else one risks being destroyed personally, professionally, socially, and financially if using the wrong pronouns or somehow offending such a person.
Me:
I hope you’re speaking sarcastically.
You can’t really be afraid that you’re going to be damaged by what gay or lesbian or transgender people think of you.
And if you give anybody, repeat anybody, power over the pronouns that you use in “normal“ English, then that “anybody” has won.

I guess you have not been paying attention to the news.  How is life in your little bubble? 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 10:50:26 AM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?
 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 25, 2021, 12:13:17 PM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?


Yes. How many of them continue to use he (or He) as a pronoun for God when there are hundreds or maybe thousands of folks who object to that.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Coach-Rev on December 25, 2021, 12:26:47 PM
Jeff simply notes that the galactic absurdity on display in this thread alone is the main reason I mostly lurk here these days, and even then, not all that often...  :o
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 25, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?
If it really, as you assert, matters little what others say about you and there is no practical consequences to having some call you out for what you say, then why the complaints about how you, Charles, and your liberal/progressive compatriots are called, referred to, and written about in this modest forum? You complain that the more liberal side of American Lutheranism and of the ELCA are not well represented on this forum and you have said that one of the reasons is that they are treated with disrespect here. But what are those here who do not show the proper respect and deference to the more liberal/progressive among American Lutheranism and especially your home church the ELCA going to do to them. Break into their banks and ravage their accounts? Complain to their congregations or bishops? Why should they care what we say about them any more than you figure that Steven Bohler should care about what members of the LGBTQ community would say about him? Or do you figure that conservatives should be held to higher standard of politeness and civility than the LGBTQ community?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 01:04:57 PM
Pastor Bohler thinks “those people” can run his life in someway. I think that’s absurd.
And the conservatives in this modest form are certainly no threat to my life.
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 01:08:35 PM
Pastor Fienen:
…you have said that one of the reasons is that they are treated with disrespect here.

Me:
But a bigger reason is that they find the arguments here meaningless to their lives and not very compelling.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 25, 2021, 01:29:53 PM
Pastor Bohler thinks “those people” can run his life in someway. I think that’s absurd.
And the conservatives in this modest form are certainly no threat to my life.
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.
I wouldn't say never.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: James S. Rustad on December 25, 2021, 02:32:39 PM
They remains in office as an ELCA bishop.

Fr. Michael highlights why this strikes me so wrong.  We take a plural pronoun, but because of this silly fiction that she is not a she (even though she is actually a he, but I can at least grant that bit of fiction for the sake of politeness), we use the plural pronoun, and the only way to avoid further absurdity is to pair it with a singular verb.  So "they.....remains."

It's utterly stupid, but here we are, in 2021, pretending English is not a language with rules.

I'm not aiming this at you, Fr. Michael.  I hope that is clear.  I only chose your post to highlight it because it did so in such spot-on fashion.

Singular they has been in use since the 14th century, at least.  The normal use is in a case where you are talking about someone who's gender you do not know.  The new feature being added by some is to use singular they for someone asserting a non-binary gender.

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
One common bugbear of the grammatical stickler is the singular they. For those who haven’t kept up, the complaint is this: the use of they as a gender-neutral pronoun (as in, “Ask each of the students what they want for lunch.”) is ungrammatical because they is a plural pronoun.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: James S. Rustad on December 25, 2021, 03:13:03 PM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Work for certain employers while refusing to use preferred pronouns and you will find out just how much control "they" have over you.

Quote from: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248880/fired-over-transgender-preferred-pronoun-mandate-virginia-teacher-appeals-to-state-supreme-court
Peter Vlaming, who taught French in Virginia’s West Point school district for seven years, was suspended and subsequently fired in 2018 for not using a male pronoun to refer to a female student who identified as a transgender male. Vlaming claimed he could not do for religious reasons.

Quote from: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/protections-against-employment-discrimination-based-sexual-orientation-or-gender
11. Could use of pronouns or names that are inconsistent with an individual’s gender identity be considered harassment?

Yes, in certain circumstances. Unlawful harassment includes unwelcome conduct that is based on gender identity. To be unlawful, the conduct must be severe or pervasive when considered together with all other unwelcome conduct based on the individual’s sex including gender identity, thereby creating a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or offensive. In its decision in Lusardi v. Dep’t of the Army,[7] the Commission explained that although accidental misuse of a transgender employee’s preferred name and pronouns does not violate Title VII, intentionally and repeatedly using the wrong name and pronouns to refer to a transgender employee could contribute to an unlawful hostile work environment.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 25, 2021, 05:00:58 PM
Rev. Austin asks, "I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?"

Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Jim Butler on December 25, 2021, 07:11:51 PM
She remains in office as an ELCA bishop.
I do not believe that the organization that suspended her is an official ELCA entity.

Why are you a hater? What kind of transphobic cretin are you?

You should be reported to your bishop and put under whatever discipline exists for hateful people like you.

The bishop at worst, should be referred to as "he.' They is a transgender man. Referring to them as 'she' is hateful and demeaning. What's next, deadnaming?

Hater.

And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?

Because of narrow-minded, hate filled, transphobic deadnamers like you who shouldn't be allowed to live.

===
In all seriousness, the questions you are asking of Prs. Preus and Bohler show that you don't really understand the trans community. Do you have any idea of the offense you would have caused by calling a transgender male "she"? Next thing you know, you're going to tell us that men can't have periods or give birth.

You best contact the group that has disowned the bishop, tell them your sins of misgendering and deadnaming, and ask them what you need to do for penance.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Jim Butler on December 25, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
I do suggest, however, that we in this modest forum try to maintain a modicum of politesse among each other.
And now I await the postings that say I never do this.

Dude, you called a transgender male "she."

That proves that you are a cisgendered, clueless, white privileged male and a hater to boot.

Forget saying you "try to maintain a modicum of politesse" (whatever "politesse" is). Your language shows otherwise.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RogerMartim on December 25, 2021, 08:19:13 PM
This would not be a problem in German with its Sie, sie, sie (you, they, she/it).
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 25, 2021, 08:38:23 PM
And why would it matter, Pastor Preus? Unless one is single and needs to consider whether someone is “datable” in the romantic/sexual meaning of that word, is it critically important to know their gender or sexual orientation?

I think, Charles, you mean their sex or sexual orientation. Gender and sexual orientation is somewhat of a redundancy.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 09:22:08 PM
Pastor plPreus:
Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?

Me:
What does that have to do with their gender or knowing whether or not they are gay?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 25, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Pastor plPreus:
Let me answer your question with a question.  Do you care if the people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop are child-molesters?

Me:
What does that have to do with their gender or knowing whether or not they are gay?

I'm just trying to test the limits of your approval of perverts.  You say I should not care if someone is a homosexual or a tranny.  Clearly, you think that such perversions are of no concern to me.  What about child molesters?  Where do you draw the line? 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 25, 2021, 10:43:29 PM
Pastor Preus, Your use of the word “perverts” and “perversions” here means that our exchange on this matter is over. Of course you do not need my approval to feel smug about this. “Ha ha! He approves perverts and I don’t. Ha ha!”
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 25, 2021, 11:58:45 PM
No, I don't feel smug.  I feel sorry for you.  You are so blinded by the false standards of the popular culture that you become angry when someone uses a word  -- pervert -- that not so long ago was commonly used by to describe homosexuals.  I have so angered you by breaking a "woke" rule that you won't discuss the matter with me further.  But I am always willing to talk with you, even when you embrace the standards of a godless culture. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 26, 2021, 02:02:21 PM
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 26, 2021, 02:09:21 PM
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: DCharlton on December 26, 2021, 02:39:23 PM
I will use NEWSPEAK to summarize my thoughts:

Bishop Megan Rohrer is a trans-male.  Therefore, they is a white male.  Clearly, the incident in question, the firing of the Latinx pastor, is an example of patriarchy and white supremacy.  ELM had no choice to cut ties with them.

No further reporting necessary.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 26, 2021, 02:58:39 PM
Way back in the 1950s, when most of us had a quite different understanding of homosexuality, my mother chastised me and my brother if we used terms like "pervert" or "fag" or "queer." For one thing, we were inclined to apply those terms to people we deemed insufficiently "masculine" or "feminine." She found that judgmental. There's nothing "wrong" if a guy wears a pink shirt.
   But she also believed that the people mocked by those terms were sick, mentally and/or physically, and felt you should not dismiss people or make fun of them for being sick.
   Now many of us have a different understanding of sexuality. And even those who do not share our understanding should - if they are paying attention to the real world - be able to have some compassion for those whom they believe to be disordered. Dismissing them as "perverts" or linking them to child molestation therefore seems especially cruel.
  The reality of the world is clear. We have gays, lesbians and transgendered people, most of them proud of who they are, or who they have become, and many of them prominent in public life, like being a Lutheran bishop.
   I do not believe it would be a good thing to let that "old language" continue. That sentence, by the way, does not refer to the current silliness over pronouns.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 26, 2021, 03:57:45 PM
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.

Brian, I think we've had very different experiences with persons we've known. I will list a few examples, too:

R.R. Teacher imprisoned for child porn.
M.F. Pursued foreign exchange student, who came to my relative looking for shelter. Abusive.
A.C. Described abuse in family and pursued unfaithfulness in relations.
T. Exploited by older men and seeking to do the same to others.
R. Estranged wife and children to come out. Divorced.

There's a world of damaged and damaging people out there. The Gospel has healing for these people but the Law also has its role in calling people to a different life. I remain concerned that the "gospel" of acceptance is entrenching people in unhealthy and often self destructive life styles. I don't think that is the will of God. Lord, have mercy.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Steven W Bohler on December 26, 2021, 04:21:43 PM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Apparently you thought that I was only speaking for myself.  I was not.  No, I have very little concern that my life or living or reputation might be destroyed for using the wrong pronoun.  But I was rather thinking of others who have experienced such savaging for such transgressions.  And if you are not aware of those examples, then you must live in a snug, comfortable bubble indeed.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 26, 2021, 09:24:38 PM
Rev. Austin, you wrote above: "Pastor Preus, Your use of the word “perverts” and “perversions” here means that our exchange on this matter is over." 

Later, you wrote: "Now many of us have a different understanding of sexuality. And even those who do not share our understanding should - if they are paying attention to the real world - be able to have some compassion for those whom they believe to be disordered. Dismissing them as "perverts" or linking them to child molestation therefore seems especially cruel."

So "our exchange on this matter is over," but it's not really over, is it?  I've struck a nerve!  You won't talk to me, but you'll talk at me.  You defend a perversion that God's word condemns while you point the finger at me and accuse me of being cruel and lacking in compassion.  You say it is cruel to link homosexuality with child molestation.  There is a fine line between the adolescent boy and the young man.  How young must the victim of the homosexual predator be before you would grant that what he is doing is perverted?  Sixteen?  Fourteen?  Twelve?  Ten?

I know you won't answer me directly, but perhaps you could do so indirectly.  Do you believe that Jesus died for perverts?  I do.  Do you believe that God loves perverts?  I do.  Do you believe that God wants perverts to be saved?  I do.  Do you believe that God, in forgiving a pervert, has the power to change him on the inside so that he can fight against his perversion and, by his grace, overcome it so that even if it rises to claim his affection, he can drive it away by the power of his baptism?  Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, Rev. Austin, real sinners: perverts, prostitutes, liars, thieves, and arrogant religious know it alls like you and me. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 27, 2021, 10:11:49 AM
God created humanity to be male or female. This I know from Genesis and believe. But I also know and believe that after the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, creation is no longer as God created it. Genesis 3 made that abundantly clear. Some of the perversion of creation is a result of individuals' intentional sin. Much of it is because we now live in a creation tainted and perverted by sin, not attributable to any one's individual sin but the effects that sin had on creation.


Gender dysphoria is one of those unfortunate disordering of creation that resulted from sin. Tracing its roots and origin is far beyond my competence. My suspicion is that there are multiple causes and manifestations, some genetic, some in upbringing and socialization, and some in personal choice. It seems a quite complex condition. One size fits all treatment also seems inappropriate. I do not have the competence to rule out as appropriate radical treatment such as sex reassignment therapy or surgery as appropriate in some cases. Individuals dealing with these issues need our understanding, sympathy, and support.


What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community. Disparaging those who are not Trans (he's just cis-gendered) and pushing the most radical of treatments (sex reassignment hormone and surgical treatment) for all who are dealing with gender dysphoria seems inappropriate. That in some cases such a radical remedy may be indicated seems reasonable. But that should be undertaken not as the first choice but the last. This is especially true when adolescents or younger are involved. Gender dysphoria in the young needs to be handled with care, understanding, and sympathy, but apparently for some, any gender identity issues in the young is taken as a firm and permanent indication that sex reassignment is a necessity. That can do as much harm and ignoring or scorning gender discomfort.


As to calling behaviors perversion and those who practice them perverts, we need to remember that all sin represents perversions of something good. We are not Manicheans; we do not believe that Satan is God's opposite and equal, but God's creation who perverted his created nature to do evil. Insofar as all of us sin, we are all perverts, perverting what God created good in and for us to do wrong. Sexual perversions (or more likely just certain sexual perversions that the one calling it out especially does not like or share) are no more or less sinful perversions than those of the rest of the panoply of sinful perversions of God's good creation that people manifest. Does using that designator help discussions?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 27, 2021, 11:26:48 AM
I am very serious, Pastor Bohler. If a gay, lesbian or transgender person does not like the pronouns you - that is, you, Steven W. Bohler - use, what will they do to you?
Complain to your congregation? Yeah, that would work.
Go to you bank and ravage your accounts?
Refuse to service your car?
"Out" you in public as someone who doesn't approve of a sex change? (And if that happens, so what? Your people won't care, and if others do, you get a chance to stand witness for what you believe.)
I repeat the question I posed to Pastor Preus. Why do you care what the gender or transgender or
sexual orientation is of people you may see on the street or meet in the supermarket or barbershop?
How does their understanding of their sexuality affect you?
And are you at all concerned about what they - the dreaded "they" - have experienced or are experiencing in their lives? Or are you only frightened about what it might mean for you?

Apparently you thought that I was only speaking for myself.  I was not.  No, I have very little concern that my life or living or reputation might be destroyed for using the wrong pronoun.  But I was rather thinking of others who have experienced such savaging for such transgressions.  And if you are not aware of those examples, then you must live in a snug, comfortable bubble indeed.

I find it hard to believe this conversation is actually taking place, and I expect gaslighting from Pastor Austin. 

This, though -- this is beyond gaslighting.  It's quite literally peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining.  If people use whatever pronouns they wish and then mind their business when people continue speaking as they always have, literally nobody has a problem with that.  It's precisely the push to cancel people for not using language that popped up 5 minutes ago, rhetorically speaking, that is objectionable.  At least for anyone who appreciates basic biology and human history.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 27, 2021, 11:31:05 AM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 27, 2021, 11:34:43 AM
God created humanity to be male or female. This I know from Genesis and believe. But I also know and believe that after the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, creation is no longer as God created it. Genesis 3 made that abundantly clear. Some of the perversion of creation is a result of individuals' intentional sin. Much of it is because we now live in a creation tainted and perverted by sin, not attributable to any one's individual sin but the effects that sin had on creation.


Gender dysphoria is one of those unfortunate disordering of creation that resulted from sin. Tracing its roots and origin is far beyond my competence. My suspicion is that there are multiple causes and manifestations, some genetic, some in upbringing and socialization, and some in personal choice. It seems a quite complex condition. One size fits all treatment also seems inappropriate. I do not have the competence to rule out as appropriate radical treatment such as sex reassignment therapy or surgery as appropriate in some cases. Individuals dealing with these issues need our understanding, sympathy, and support.


What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community. Disparaging those who are not Trans (he's just cis-gendered) and pushing the most radical of treatments (sex reassignment hormone and surgical treatment) for all who are dealing with gender dysphoria seems inappropriate. That in some cases such a radical remedy may be indicated seems reasonable. But that should be undertaken not as the first choice but the last. This is especially true when adolescents or younger are involved. Gender dysphoria in the young needs to be handled with care, understanding, and sympathy, but apparently for some, any gender identity issues in the young is taken as a firm and permanent indication that sex reassignment is a necessity. That can do as much harm and ignoring or scorning gender discomfort.


As to calling behaviors perversion and those who practice them perverts, we need to remember that all sin represents perversions of something good. We are not Manicheans; we do not believe that Satan is God's opposite and equal, but God's creation who perverted his created nature to do evil. Insofar as all of us sin, we are all perverts, perverting what God created good in and for us to do wrong. Sexual perversions (or more likely just certain sexual perversions that the one calling it out especially does not like or share) are no more or less sinful perversions than those of the rest of the panoply of sinful perversions of God's good creation that people manifest. Does using that designator help discussions?

The concern with the push to encourage transgenderism in society, beyond pushing it on children who are already confused and struggling with becoming adults, is precisely that it rejects the Image of God in man.  God created us, fearfully, wonderfully.  The Fall, as you rightly state, disorders that, but we are still created in the Image of God, having lost His likeness, and denying that has ramifications that go far beyond being nice to people who suffer from gender dysphoria.  It has implications for how we view our neighbor as well.

One of the worst things about society is the desire to dehumanize those who are inconvenient to us.  We see it on the right and the left, among Christians and non-Christians, and we have for quite a long time (is the desire to dehumanize the unborn to justify killing them really any different in a fundamental sense than the desire to dehumanize black people to justify their enslavement?). When Jesus said "whatever you have done for the least of these, my brethren, you have done for me," I doubt He had in mind exceptions such as "expect for black people, or infants in the womb, or cisgendered Patriarchal white males," or whatever.  We are to look at our neighbor and see Jesus.  He is the mark.  We all fall short of the mark, so He teaches us to see in others what He sees.  When the starting premise is "I reject my own creation," we deny Jesus in us.  How can we possibly then see Him in others?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 27, 2021, 11:39:49 AM
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.

Brian, I think we've had very different experiences with persons we've known. I will list a few examples, too:

R.R. Teacher imprisoned for child porn.
M.F. Pursued foreign exchange student, who came to my relative looking for shelter. Abusive.
A.C. Described abuse in family and pursued unfaithfulness in relations.
T. Exploited by older men and seeking to do the same to others.
R. Estranged wife and children to come out. Divorced.

There's a world of damaged and damaging people out there. The Gospel has healing for these people but the Law also has its role in calling people to a different life. I remain concerned that the "gospel" of acceptance is entrenching people in unhealthy and often self destructive life styles. I don't think that is the will of God. Lord, have mercy.


Those crimes are committed by heterosexuals as well. Being homosexual or trans is not necessarily any less healthy or self-destructive than being heterosexual. Anyone can and does behaviors that are destructive to self and others.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 27, 2021, 11:47:37 AM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.


There was a time when we thought that left-handed people were disordered and tried to force them to become right-handed. (My grandmother was such a person.) Just because we don't know where handedness comes from, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and is normal for those who are born with such a preference.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 27, 2021, 11:49:44 AM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.


There was a time when we thought that left-handed people were disordered and tried to force them to become right-handed. (My grandmother was such a person.) Just because we don't know where handedness comes from, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and is normal for those who are born with such a preference.

There is nuance in life.  One nuance is we don't accept all things that appear normal to those who suffer from them.

One would (I hope) consider it monstrous to tell an anorexic "look, you're objectively skinny and unhealthy and you will die if you don't eat more, but this is your reality and who am I to question it?  If it's true for you, I accept it."
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 27, 2021, 11:59:45 AM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.


There was a time when we thought that left-handed people were disordered and tried to force them to become right-handed. (My grandmother was such a person.) Just because we don't know where handedness comes from, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and is normal for those who are born with such a preference.

There is nuance in life.  One nuance is we don't accept all things that appear normal to those who suffer from them.

One would (I hope) consider it monstrous to tell an anorexic "look, you're objectively skinny and unhealthy and you will die if you don't eat more, but this is your reality and who am I to question it?  If it's true for you, I accept it."


One would (I hope) consider the difference between destructive behaviors, such as restricting food intake, and internal thoughts about body image. Homosexuality and transgender-ness are about inward thoughts and attitudes that may or may not result in corresponding behaviors. One can be homosexual and refuse to engage in sexual relationships, as a conservative Lutheran pastor I know was committed to doing. It's also possible for one to be heterosexual and engage in same-sex relationships, such as men in prison might do.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 27, 2021, 12:09:11 PM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.


There was a time when we thought that left-handed people were disordered and tried to force them to become right-handed. (My grandmother was such a person.) Just because we don't know where handedness comes from, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and is normal for those who are born with such a preference.

There is nuance in life.  One nuance is we don't accept all things that appear normal to those who suffer from them.

One would (I hope) consider it monstrous to tell an anorexic "look, you're objectively skinny and unhealthy and you will die if you don't eat more, but this is your reality and who am I to question it?  If it's true for you, I accept it."


One would (I hope) consider the difference between destructive behaviors, such as restricting food intake, and internal thoughts about body image. Homosexuality and transgender-ness are about inward thoughts and attitudes that may or may not result in corresponding behaviors. One can be homosexual and refuse to engage in sexual relationships, as a conservative Lutheran pastor I know was committed to doing. It's also possible for one to be heterosexual and engage in same-sex relationships, such as men in prison might do.

Sure, and one can be transgendered (or think they are transgendered because school officials, the media, Hollywood, major corporations, etc. encourage that), and want to mutilate their bodies.

Harm is the issue.  As long as a same-sex couple isn't asking me to change 2000 years of consistent Christian doctrine to suit their whims, we'll have no issue with what they do in the privacy of their home.  I've always been nice to my gay friends, gay people I meet, etc.  I'm a fan of live and let live.  As long as a transgendered person is an adult and has made a decision to have surgical alteration to their body, and isn't asking me to pretend red is blue, we'll have no problem.  When that person wants a 15 year old to cut her breasts off and take hormones and shut down my business because I won't say "she's really, truly a woman just like my daughters and ought to be able to compete against women in sporting events," we have a different issue.

There's a lot of gray area between those extremes.  But I think we all know which way the cultural winds are trying to blow, so complaining about the backlash is, as I said above, gaslighting.  You aren't doing that, so that's not aimed at you.  But the general push in pop culture is "get on board or you're a bigot."  That's stupid, and counter-productive, and destined to fail.  In fact, I think the real danger is the backlash against it ends up being way worse than my own "live and let live" philosophy.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 27, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Pastor Fienen:
What disturbs me and raises questions in my mind is the apparent tendency of some, some, in the Trans community to apparently actively recruit others for their community.
Me:
And one hopes they will quickly learn what others learned when they tried to “cure“ or “fix“ gays and lesbians and make them heterosexual. It doesn’t work.
What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.
One of the problems that I see in this is that those in the Trans community who are anxious to recruit others, especially minors and rush the more extreme solutions (sex reassignment surgery) are also recruiting society to back their claims and aims and labeling anyone who would dispute them as bigots and pariahs. Studies that suggest that embracing ones "Trans" nature and undergoing sex reassignment often does not "fix" people are rejected outright as bigoted and unacceptable, no matter how carefully they are done. In this area apparently the purpose of scientific studies is to support the preferred position.


What would “help the discussion” would be the willingness to at least consider whether gays and lesbians are not intrinsically disordered, but made that way. To consider whether the way that they are made is not disordered, and that how they live their lives is not an abomination.
Another thing that I find queer (Bing online dictionary, definition (1) strange, odd) is that we are supposed to take as an article of faith that gays and lesbians are born that way (the origins of gender attraction seems likely more complex than that simple assertion) and therefore their orientation must not be disordered because "God made us that way." However in the case of those with gender dysphoria it is the way that "God made them," the way that they were born that is disordered and to resolve that disorder their sex must be changed.


I know you are incapable of doing that, and I understand the reasons. Then the issue shifts to a different level, namely, how do you receive these people in civil society.
You say that you understand the reasons, but if you do (and that is a real "if") you certainly disapprove.

You write as though this were "my" society for which me and mine are the accepted gate keepers, so that it is up to us to receive those we perceive as "others" into our civil society. That may have been the case when you were much younger, but in this millennium, it is increasing a question of whether you and yours will receive people like me into your civil society. Increasing, it seems that the price of admission is conformity to liberal/progressive standards.

We live in a pluralistic society. Not only different ethnicities but different races, religions, political and social ideologies. Living in pluralism is often uncomfortable. Many, many, people seem to want to ease that discomfort by transforming the society in which they live into one that is more homogeneous in those areas that are important to them. Where they are, people are to act, talk, and exist in ways that they are comfortable with.


This impulse is not strictly a conservative, Republican, Evangelical, or right-wing phenomenon. It is a human one and is as typical among those who are liberal as those conservative. As is the tendency for people to assume that virtue lies in conforming to those standards of behavior that one favors and is comfortable with.

The question is not just "how do you receive these people in civil society"? That is a very important question that I must consider and deal with. But an equally important question is how will those who approve of homosexuality, etc. receive people like me in civil society? It seems that far too often the answer to that question is that you don't, and you won't. If people like us want to enter civil society, we have to abandon our disgusting ways and become good people like you.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 27, 2021, 03:24:53 PM
There was a female university student who felt herself to be male and in the wrong body. She decided to have her breasts removed. After the operation and physical recovery, she realized that the operation did not change her thoughts and feelings. The self-loathing and struggle was still there and she regretted her decision.

I think persons having these experiences are often unbalanced. They are insisting that we join them in their confused vision of themselves and others. All this calls for compassion but it seems not compassionate to simply go along with their misunderstanding of themselves. Lord, grant wisdom.


And there are many others who are quite happy with their decisions to transition, such as Bishop Megan, a youngster (now adult) I had in a congregation, the partner of pastor-friend's daughter.

Brian, I think we've had very different experiences with persons we've known. I will list a few examples, too:

R.R. Teacher imprisoned for child porn.
M.F. Pursued foreign exchange student, who came to my relative looking for shelter. Abusive.
A.C. Described abuse in family and pursued unfaithfulness in relations.
T. Exploited by older men and seeking to do the same to others.
R. Estranged wife and children to come out. Divorced.

There's a world of damaged and damaging people out there. The Gospel has healing for these people but the Law also has its role in calling people to a different life. I remain concerned that the "gospel" of acceptance is entrenching people in unhealthy and often self destructive life styles. I don't think that is the will of God. Lord, have mercy.


Those crimes are committed by heterosexuals as well. Being homosexual or trans is not necessarily any less healthy or self-destructive than being heterosexual. Anyone can and does behaviors that are destructive to self and others.

I certainly agree heterosexuals commit such crimes. But in my experience, the problem is broader among people with homosexual attraction. The issues that we've seen with the Boy Scouts, various sports programs---even at the university level, not to mention the clergy abuse scandal illustrate the problem. I find from talking with homosexual persons that they have often experienced sexual abuse or exploitation, which likely contributes to how they see themselves sexually. I believe that the acceptance of LGBTQ ideals will not reduce the problem but potentially compound it.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 27, 2021, 06:32:40 PM
Pastor Fienen writes:
Another thing that I find queer (Bing online dictionary, definition (1) strange, odd) is that we are supposed to take as an article of faith that gays and lesbians are born that way (the origins of gender attraction seems likely more complex than that simple assertion) and therefore their orientation must not be disordered because "God made us that way."
I comment:
No, you are not supposed to take it as an “article of faith.” You do not have to “take it” at all. You can believe that gays and lesbians are wrong wrong wrong and bad bad bad. You can believe they are “disordered”.  But…. (see below)

Pastor Fienen writes:
One of the problems that I see in this is that those in the Trans community who are anxious to recruit others, especially minors and rush the more extreme solutions (sex reassignment surgery) are also recruiting society to back their claims and aims and labeling anyone who would dispute them as bigots and pariahs. Studies that suggest that embracing ones "Trans" nature and undergoing sex reassignment often does not "fix" people are rejected outright as bigoted and unacceptable, no matter how carefully they are done. In this area apparently the purpose of scientific studies is to support the preferred position.
I comment:
Well, we cannot stop anyone from “recruiting” people to think anything (including bat-crap nonsense about elections). And there are laws about what surgeries minors can have. Your comment about the “purpose of scientific studies” is vague and irrelevant. We are often told of studies showing the horrors of homosexuality.

Pastor Fienen:
You write as though this were "my" society for which me and mine are the accepted gate keepers, so that it is up to us to receive those we perceive as "others" into our civil society. That may have been the case when you were much younger, but in this millennium, it is increasing a question of whether you and yours will receive people like me into your civil society. Increasing, it seems that the price of admission is conformity to liberal/progressive standards.
I comment:
There you go again, wanting to be a victim, playing the victim, fearing being victimized. Civil society does not require you to accept homosexuality or the concept of transgender surgery. But civil society does require you to treat everyone fairly and equally. Homosexuality is not a “liberal/progressive” standard. But fair treatment of others is. It’s like being a hard-core Protestant in Northern Ireland. You can still think the “papists” are hellish heretics. But you cannot discriminate against them.

Pastor Fienen writes:
The question is not just "how do you receive these people in civil society"? That is a very important question that I must consider and deal with. But an equally important question is how will those who approve of homosexuality, etc. receive people like me in civil society? It seems that far too often the answer to that question is that you don't, and you won't. If people like us want to enter civil society, we have to abandon our disgusting ways and become good people like you.
I comment:
And there you go again and again, and you are still at it. I promise to “receive” people like you in civil society even if you do not budge one millimeter from your current views. If someone tries to discriminate against you or your “type” of people in voting, housing, employment, etc. etc. etc., I’ll join you in the demonstrations. But I do not believe that will be necessary.
You, on your part, are going to have to live in this civil society knowing – and this seems to be hard for you to take – that some of us don’t like how you think about some of the rest of us.
Get over it. Certain people aren’t going to invite you to their beach homes in Malibu. And you wouldn’t want to go if they did. Believe what you want to believe. We will not stop you.
I believe we should strongly regulate guns, ban most guns and make it very very hard to own guns. Some people don't like that. I don't care. But the law right now is on the side of people who think I'm wrong. I can live with that.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 27, 2021, 06:44:06 PM
And by the way, the existence of people who own guns has a great chance of severely affecting my life. The presence of married gay couples has no chance to severely affect your life.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Terry W Culler on December 27, 2021, 08:03:31 PM
And by the way, the existence of people who own guns has a great chance of severely affecting my life. The presence of married gay couples has no chance to severely affect your life.


Said existence of married gay couples may not directly affect my life either, but it surely affects the culture in which I live and that then affects my life in too many ways to list. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 27, 2021, 08:26:48 PM
So live against the culture, Pastor Culler, a lot of us have been doing that for decades. So have the Mormons, the Amish, Mennonites and a lot of other folks.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RogerMartim on December 27, 2021, 08:37:08 PM
I, as a 73-year old Gay "pervert" (according to some of you), have never in my entire life seen or sensed any kind of "recruitment" either in my wide circle of Gay friends or in the Trans community. You cannot recruit a person to switch to the "other side." There is no campaign of any sort. You simply cannot make a person do something they don't want to do; or be something that they don't want to be. Where do some of you come up with this crap? There are a few indiscriminate Gay people who may act upon another person against their will, but that is criminal activity just as it would be in any straight circumstance.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 27, 2021, 08:45:24 PM
And by the way, the existence of people who own guns has a great chance of severely affecting my life...

How so?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rob Morris on December 27, 2021, 11:03:25 PM
I, as a 73-year old Gay "pervert" (according to some of you), have never in my entire life seen or sensed any kind of "recruitment" either in my wide circle of Gay friends or in the Trans community. You cannot recruit a person to switch to the "other side." There is no campaign of any sort. You simply cannot make a person do something they don't want to do; or be something that they don't want to be. Where do some of you come up with this crap? There are a few indiscriminate Gay people who may act upon another person against their will, but that is criminal activity just as it would be in any straight circumstance.

I can say, working closely with youth for the last 20 years, that your experience as a 73-year-old is very far removed from the daily reality of teens and pre-teens now. The social pressure to explore and experiment is unbelievably powerful; the social rewards for engaging in such exploration and experimentation are likewise unbelievably powerful.

A pre-teen or teen who struggles with their self-identity (and doing so is pretty much the definition of adolescence for all kids, where individuation is the primary task) will be quickly accepted and made untouchable to any teasing or social criticism... as long as they identify as gay or trans. Remain a straight, cisgendered but awkward kid and you're fair game. Be gay or trans and you are both accepted and protected.

This was true as observed by the youth I worked with when I made a living as a youth leader in the early 2000s. It has only increased in the decades since. Exponentially. I am currently working with four different families who have children/grandchildren experimenting with transgenderism. The youngest is seven. Five years ago, I had worked with zero. You really think there's no concerted effort going on?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 27, 2021, 11:36:36 PM
Pastor Kirchner asks:
How so?

I respond:
Because I or someone I care for, could be somewhere, possibly in the line of fire, when someone decides to shoot people.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 28, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
Pastor Fienen writes:
Another thing that I find queer (Bing online dictionary, definition (1) strange, odd) is that we are supposed to take as an article of faith that gays and lesbians are born that way (the origins of gender attraction seems likely more complex than that simple assertion) and therefore their orientation must not be disordered because "God made us that way."
I comment:
No, you are not supposed to take it as an “article of faith.” You do not have to “take it” at all. You can believe that gays and lesbians are wrong wrong wrong and bad bad bad. You can believe they are “disordered”.  But…. (see below)

Pastor Fienen writes:
One of the problems that I see in this is that those in the Trans community who are anxious to recruit others, especially minors and rush the more extreme solutions (sex reassignment surgery) are also recruiting society to back their claims and aims and labeling anyone who would dispute them as bigots and pariahs. Studies that suggest that embracing ones "Trans" nature and undergoing sex reassignment often does not "fix" people are rejected outright as bigoted and unacceptable, no matter how carefully they are done. In this area apparently the purpose of scientific studies is to support the preferred position.
I comment:
Well, we cannot stop anyone from “recruiting” people to think anything (including bat-crap nonsense about elections). And there are laws about what surgeries minors can have. Your comment about the “purpose of scientific studies” is vague and irrelevant. We are often told of studies showing the horrors of homosexuality.

Pastor Fienen:
You write as though this were "my" society for which me and mine are the accepted gate keepers, so that it is up to us to receive those we perceive as "others" into our civil society. That may have been the case when you were much younger, but in this millennium, it is increasing a question of whether you and yours will receive people like me into your civil society. Increasing, it seems that the price of admission is conformity to liberal/progressive standards.
I comment:
There you go again, wanting to be a victim, playing the victim, fearing being victimized. Civil society does not require you to accept homosexuality or the concept of transgender surgery. But civil society does require you to treat everyone fairly and equally. Homosexuality is not a “liberal/progressive” standard. But fair treatment of others is. It’s like being a hard-core Protestant in Northern Ireland. You can still think the “papists” are hellish heretics. But you cannot discriminate against them.

Pastor Fienen writes:
The question is not just "how do you receive these people in civil society"? That is a very important question that I must consider and deal with. But an equally important question is how will those who approve of homosexuality, etc. receive people like me in civil society? It seems that far too often the answer to that question is that you don't, and you won't. If people like us want to enter civil society, we have to abandon our disgusting ways and become good people like you.
I comment:
And there you go again and again, and you are still at it. I promise to “receive” people like you in civil society even if you do not budge one millimeter from your current views. If someone tries to discriminate against you or your “type” of people in voting, housing, employment, etc. etc. etc., I’ll join you in the demonstrations. But I do not believe that will be necessary.
You, on your part, are going to have to live in this civil society knowing – and this seems to be hard for you to take – that some of us don’t like how you think about some of the rest of us.
Get over it. Certain people aren’t going to invite you to their beach homes in Malibu. And you wouldn’t want to go if they did. Believe what you want to believe. We will not stop you.
I believe we should strongly regulate guns, ban most guns and make it very very hard to own guns. Some people don't like that. I don't care. But the law right now is on the side of people who think I'm wrong. I can live with that.
OK, I give up. There is no point in trying to converse with you Charles.  The image of me that you've built up in your mind, that you know represents the real me that even I am not aware of speaks to you so loudly that you never hear what I say. I’ll just bow out of this conversation now, you don't need me anyway. The straw man that you've created to represent me is all you need to prove how pathetic I am. Go on demonstrating your superiority without me.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 28, 2021, 12:57:47 AM
Pastor Fienen, I am trying honesty to help you understand that I do not think you are worthless, that your "kind" should be subject to any illegal discrimination, that your views are your views and you can hold on to them and that I understand where you are coming from. I disagree, obviously, but I am not "putting you down" or dissing you. I think there are some things that you don't understand and I am trying to explain.

Then you write:
OK, I give up. There is no point in trying to converse with you Charles.  The image of me that you've built up in your mind, that you know represents the real me that even I am not aware of speaks to you so loudly that you never hear what I say.
I comment:
But my "image" of you comes through your words here, over a long period of time. You sound to me like someone who wants others to like him, is afraid of being victimized and frets a lot about what might happen because of what others - progressives mostly - think of his views.

You write:
I’ll just bow out of this conversation now, you don't need me anyway. The straw man that you've created to represent me is all you need to prove how pathetic I am.
I comment:
I hope you don't. And if I wanted a straw man, it would be a lot easier to create than the hard-shell you put around yourself. Again, I am not, I am not, I am not trying to "prove how pathetic" you are. I am actually trying to make you feel better and see that all the liberal/progressives in the world are not out to get you.

You write:
Go on demonstrating your superiority without me.
I comment:
No, I need you for that. RELAX! That's a joke. I don't mean it. (You just gave me such a set-up that the writer in me couldn't let it pass without a shot.) But do you see how, once again, you take yourself down? "Poor me!" Stop doing that.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 28, 2021, 07:24:39 AM
Pastor Kirchner asks:
How so?

I respond:
Because I or someone I care for, could be somewhere, possibly in the line of fire, when someone decides to shoot people.

So, you're talking about a criminal act, "shooting people," not about "people who own guns" and who might save your and/or Beloved Spouse's life/lives "when someone decides to shoot people."
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 28, 2021, 11:18:27 AM
As noted far upstream, I believe the numbers show that the so-called defensive guns are more likely to wound or kill the wrong person or to be misused than to actually save lives.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 28, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
Pastor Kirchner asks:
How so?

I respond:
Because I or someone I care for, could be somewhere, possibly in the line of fire, when someone decides to shoot people.

So, you're talking about a criminal act, "shooting people," not about "people who own guns" and who might save your and/or Beloved Spouse's life/lives "when someone decides to shoot people."


Remember that when talking about homosexuals or trans. They, like any other person, can commit criminal acts. Falling in love and wanting to spend one's life with a same-sex partner is not a criminal act.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 28, 2021, 11:27:50 AM
Pastor Kirchner asks:
How so?

I respond:
Because I or someone I care for, could be somewhere, possibly in the line of fire, when someone decides to shoot people.

So, you're talking about a criminal act, "shooting people," not about "people who own guns" and who might save your and/or Beloved Spouse's life/lives "when someone decides to shoot people."


Remember that when talking about homosexuals or trans. They, like any other person, can commit criminal acts. Falling in love and wanting to spend one's life with a same-sex partner is not a criminal act.

We're getting light snow right now. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 28, 2021, 12:03:32 PM
As noted far upstream, I believe the numbers show that the so-called defensive guns are more likely to wound or kill the wrong person or to be misused than to actually save lives.

That belief is inaccurate, based on junk science funded by anti-gun zealots, chiefly in the form of the Arthur Kellerman study.  Problems with that study are numerous, but just a few to get you started:

1). It studied a very small sample (388 homicides) in predominately urban areas in TN, WA and OH. 
2). 84% of the homicides reported were committed did not involve forced entry.  This means the person who did the killing likely had permission to enter the home. 
3). The study did not try to control for whether the victim tried to retrieve a gun kept in the home for defense, or whether they were essentially ambushed and had no opportunity to acquire a gun.
4). The method of determining whether someone kept a gun or not was to ask friends and relatives (because obviously, the decedent could not testify about this).  This is problematic both because it could lead to false reporting (if the person thought a gun was present when it was not), and underreporting (if the person did have a gun and this fact was unknown to the people being questioned).
5). The study did not sort out causation versus correlation, in a few important ways.  First, other factors associated with homicide were living alone (which roughly correlated to the same association as owning a gun), drinking alcohol, renting, etc.  It also did not control for guns that were specifically brought into the home to commit a murder.  There are other, statistics nerd issues that I won't get into.  I will say, of all of these risk factors, having a gun in the home had the lowest association with homicide.  Yet the study is often reported by anti gun groups and a compliant lying media to conclude that keeping a gun in the home is a significant risk factor for homicide.  Notably, the study itself references these deficiencies, but Kellerman has nonetheless used the study popularly to tout that conclusion.
6). As the study states specifically, "some of the association between gun ownership and homicide may have come from the victims having previously 'acquired a gun in response to a specific threat.'”  In other words, using this study to prove that people who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide is a lot like arguing that people who keep aspirin in their home are more likely to suffer pain and people who keep insulin in their home are more likely to contract diabetes.
7). The study made no effort to determine if the victim's gun was the one used in the homicide.
8 ). There is a potential for volunteer bias, in that people willing to participate in the study might differ from those who refused to participate in important ways that would effect the study's reliability and the strength of its conclusions.
9). The sample was not random, nor did Kellerman claim it to be.
10). The study did not assess the benefits of firearms ownership in preventing homicide, nor did it pretend to try.

This study is, put bluntly, garbage if used to support the conclusion you have drawn.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 28, 2021, 12:09:13 PM
Pastor Kirchner asks:
How so?

I respond:
Because I or someone I care for, could be somewhere, possibly in the line of fire, when someone decides to shoot people.

So, you're talking about a criminal act, "shooting people," not about "people who own guns" and who might save your and/or Beloved Spouse's life/lives "when someone decides to shoot people."


Remember that when talking about homosexuals or trans. They, like any other person, can commit criminal acts. Falling in love and wanting to spend one's life with a same-sex partner is not a criminal act.

We're getting light snow right now.


I would expect that in Bemidji. Never seen snow in Yuma. Only once can I remember in our 15 years here the temperature dipped below freezing. I expect LGBT folks to live criminal-free lives like most heterosexuals. You seem to expect them to engage in criminal acts.


Perhaps, your life as a lawyer has jaundiced your view, like a lawyer on a board I was on admitted. We received an offer for some property we owned. He admitted that all of the Real Estate agents he had dealt with in his profession were criminals. He had a hard time believing that it was a legitimate offer from a legitimate company.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 28, 2021, 12:21:12 PM
I expect LGBT folks to live criminal-free lives like most heterosexuals. You seem to expect them to engage in criminal acts.


Perhaps, your life as a lawyer has jaundiced your view, like a lawyer on a board I was on admitted.

Wherever did you see any statement from me that would lead you to conclude that I "expect [LGBT folks] to engage in criminal acts" or that my "life as a lawyer has jaundiced [my] view"?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 28, 2021, 06:43:30 PM
I expect LGBT folks to live criminal-free lives like most heterosexuals. You seem to expect them to engage in criminal acts.


Perhaps, your life as a lawyer has jaundiced your view, like a lawyer on a board I was on admitted.

Wherever did you see any statement from me that would lead you to conclude that I "expect [LGBT folks] to engage in criminal acts" or that my "life as a lawyer has jaundiced [my] view"?


You brought up "criminal acts" in regards to guns in your response to Charles. If it is not their acts that you object to, with regards to LBGT, what is it?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: James S. Rustad on December 28, 2021, 07:16:26 PM
As noted far upstream, I believe the numbers show that the so-called defensive guns are more likely to wound or kill the wrong person or to be misused than to actually save lives.

Your hoplophobia seems caused not by the things you don't know, but the things that you do know that are wrong.  Reading the work of Gary Kleck might give you a different understanding from the twisted version of the Kellermann work you seem to be referring to.  Especially interesting is Kleck's examination of unpublicized CDC data in comparison to his own data.  (Hint - CDC data agrees with Kleck's data.)

Next you'll be telling us how historians have shown that guns were uncommon in colonial and revolutionary America.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 28, 2021, 07:51:12 PM
I expect LGBT folks to live criminal-free lives like most heterosexuals. You seem to expect them to engage in criminal acts.


Perhaps, your life as a lawyer has jaundiced your view, like a lawyer on a board I was on admitted.

Wherever did you see any statement from me that would lead you to conclude that I "expect [LGBT folks] to engage in criminal acts" or that my "life as a lawyer has jaundiced [my] view"?


You brought up "criminal acts" in regards to guns in your response to Charles. If it is not their acts that you object to, with regards to LBGT, what is it?

Exactly. Criminal acts "in regards to guns," not "with regards to LBGT."
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RogerMartim on December 28, 2021, 08:20:42 PM
Good heavens, Pastor Morris, you are so off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Many LGBTQ kids are so bullied that some go on to end their lives. Society's disdain of LGBTQ people can be so profound that they carry scars that never go away. I was bullied by both students and teachers, yes, teachers, but by God's grace I was able to overcome this abuse and go on to live a moderately productive and happy life. Once I understood my own homosexuality I never hid it.

I simply do not know where you get this "peer" pressure to be something that a person is not. Locker rooms are the same now as they were 50 and 60 years ago when I was coming up. They are not fun places for a Gay person to hang out with so much toxic masculinity to prove that one is not a fag. Statistically it is considered that maybe one out of ten (and that might be on the high end) are in the LGBTQ spectrum. So how does this work with nine out of 10 people all in some kind of a cabal to recruit kids to the "other" side?

There is much more awareness nowadays of gender dysphoria whereas in my time coming up, it was completely unknown except in a couple of those individuals who were probably seen as not much better than circus freaks. So, today there may be much more expressions from certain individuals because there is a name for it and that with physical and extensive psychological counseling, it is seen by many as a correction. Again, there is no recruitment or peer pressure or concerted effort that some think is more prevalent nowadays. Just count the number of dead of those who have chosen to end their lives.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Matt Hummel on December 28, 2021, 09:26:12 PM
Good heavens, Pastor Morris, you are so off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Many LGBTQ kids are so bullied that some go on to end their lives. Society's disdain of LGBTQ people can be so profound that they carry scars that never go away. I was bullied by both students and teachers, yes, teachers, but by God's grace I was able to overcome this abuse and go on to live a moderately productive and happy life. Once I understood my own homosexuality I never hid it.


Roger- While we are in disagreement on a number of issues, I appreciate your posting here. I appreciate somebody who makes me think through my position based upon their comments. But as someone who spent a good portion of late elementary school and junior high school being bullied, I have to say that I am somewhat peeved that bullying became something that absolutely had to be stopped because after all, homosexual children were being bullied. Where the hell were the PTB when I, (as described by a a gay fellow CPW student) a raging heterosexual, was being physically and verbally bullied?

I am against bullying. But it's like educators and child psychologists discovered in the 90s or so that children who self identified as having same sex attraction were bullied, so NOW it has to stop. Straight bullied kids get just as depressed and just as suicidal. But no one gives a s*** about straight nerds.

Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 29, 2021, 07:33:45 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Matt Hummel on December 29, 2021, 08:58:29 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”

Charles,

I wouldn’t expect you to understand because, tbh, you are a bully. One of the upsides of my early life experience is an ability to spot them.

Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: David Garner on December 29, 2021, 09:10:22 AM
Good heavens, Pastor Morris, you are so off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Many LGBTQ kids are so bullied that some go on to end their lives. Society's disdain of LGBTQ people can be so profound that they carry scars that never go away. I was bullied by both students and teachers, yes, teachers, but by God's grace I was able to overcome this abuse and go on to live a moderately productive and happy life. Once I understood my own homosexuality I never hid it.

I simply do not know where you get this "peer" pressure to be something that a person is not. Locker rooms are the same now as they were 50 and 60 years ago when I was coming up. They are not fun places for a Gay person to hang out with so much toxic masculinity to prove that one is not a fag. Statistically it is considered that maybe one out of ten (and that might be on the high end) are in the LGBTQ spectrum. So how does this work with nine out of 10 people all in some kind of a cabal to recruit kids to the "other" side?

There is much more awareness nowadays of gender dysphoria whereas in my time coming up, it was completely unknown except in a couple of those individuals who were probably seen as not much better than circus freaks. So, today there may be much more expressions from certain individuals because there is a name for it and that with physical and extensive psychological counseling, it is seen by many as a correction. Again, there is no recruitment or peer pressure or concerted effort that some think is more prevalent nowadays. Just count the number of dead of those who have chosen to end their lives.

You’re simply wrong about this. I’ve had to deal with it with my own children, and they are homeschooled. I know it exists in public schools.

Read Abigail Shrier’s book.

https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seducing-Daughters-ebook/dp/B07YL6XK55/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATEdWER41FJ6wCexF913BQbxxvr88ASrB0vb_612mCJSphWoSGksWYkaAkbHEALw_wcB&hvadid=439051710152&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9010849&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=6804217412128915342&hvtargid=kwd-914704793883&hydadcr=22595_10348272&keywords=abigail+shrier+irreversible+damage&qid=1640786976&sr=8-1

If you don’t know, don’t speak. If you do know you’re gaslighting. Either way, you are as wrong as you could possibly be on this issue.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rob Morris on December 29, 2021, 09:24:54 AM
Good heavens, Pastor Morris, you are so off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Many LGBTQ kids are so bullied that some go on to end their lives. Society's disdain of LGBTQ people can be so profound that they carry scars that never go away. I was bullied by both students and teachers, yes, teachers, but by God's grace I was able to overcome this abuse and go on to live a moderately productive and happy life. Once I understood my own homosexuality I never hid it.

I simply do not know where you get this "peer" pressure to be something that a person is not. Locker rooms are the same now as they were 50 and 60 years ago when I was coming up. They are not fun places for a Gay person to hang out with so much toxic masculinity to prove that one is not a fag. Statistically it is considered that maybe one out of ten (and that might be on the high end) are in the LGBTQ spectrum. So how does this work with nine out of 10 people all in some kind of a cabal to recruit kids to the "other" side?

There is much more awareness nowadays of gender dysphoria whereas in my time coming up, it was completely unknown except in a couple of those individuals who were probably seen as not much better than circus freaks. So, today there may be much more expressions from certain individuals because there is a name for it and that with physical and extensive psychological counseling, it is seen by many as a correction. Again, there is no recruitment or peer pressure or concerted effort that some think is more prevalent nowadays. Just count the number of dead of those who have chosen to end their lives.

I maintain my point: schools have changed drastically in the last 6 decades. I am astounded you would claim otherwise.

I am extremely sorry for the bullying you faced. Were you to attend school now and inform the school of anti-gay bullying you experienced, the students would be suspended and the teachers would be fired. I am thinking that’s a change from your experience.

As to me positing some shadowy cabal… far from it. There are organized pride parades, pride month celebrations, book share programs where only LGBTQ resources are allowed, Gay-Straight Alliances… should I go on? How many of those were taking place in the 1950s? How about the powerful LGBTQ lobbying groups? Shadowy cabal? No. Concerted effort? Yes.

Lastly, my point isn’t that people are being bullied into being gay or trans, but that claiming to be gay or trans is the one safe pass out of bullying. Maybe the four families I am working with are all aberrations, but I don’t think so.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 29, 2021, 10:43:23 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Some people seem condemned or eager to continue to live as though the 1950s never ended. Has American society made no progress and no change with regard to racism, sexism, or genderism in the seventy years since 1951? Why must every discussion relating to race or gender be conducted as though conditions today are the same as they were back then?


We still have issues relating to race, sex, or gender, especially for those whose minds or emotions are fixated on the 1950s. We have not entered into a racial or gender utopia by any means, but the kind of abusive, blatant racism, sexism, or genderism that was more or less accepted in the 1950s is no longer as unremarkable or socially accepted as it was then. And yes, most conservatives have gotten the memos, gotten a little more humility, and recognized that we need to live in a society where racism and sexism is unacceptable, and a much broader gender spectrum is. Lectures that assume that we are troglodytes unaware that some of what was accepted in the 1950s was really wrong and needed (and still in some ways still needs) to be corrected, or just because we have not become fully accepting of homosexuality and transsexuality as normal and natural, blessed by God as in accord with His will, we really want to return to the bullying of the 1950s are not helpful. Nor does it mean that new issues in these areas have not arisen.


We need to find ways so that people of differing beliefs can live together in civil society without unduly impinging on each other's rights. So, yes, there is now same-sex marriage and despite how some of us disagree with that decision, that is how it is. But there will also people who continue to disagree with that and wish to live their lives, even when interacting in civil society without having to pretend that they agree with it. And in ways that do not prevent those who wish to be in a same-sex marriage from doing so. The county clerk in Kentucky who believed that signing same-sex marriage licenses in her governmental official capacity as clerk violated her religious beliefs was clearly out of line. Her right to practice her beliefs had become incompatible with their rights to that license. Where else would such a couple go? But what about the baker who had no qualms selling goods off the shelf to homosexuals but decline to use his creative skills to celebrate what he believed should not be celebrated? Did his refusal prevent the same sex marriage, or even prevent it being celebrated with specially crafted cake from any of the other bakers who were willing and eager to accommodate them? Or are we going to start drawing up private sector occupations that can only be filled by those willing to act in support of same-sex marriage?


Life in civil society inevitably involves compromise. A goal should be to create compromises that recognizes the rights and dignity of all people, not just the preferred set and minimizes the inconveniences and disadvantages to all as much as possible. In the 1950s white, male, heterosexuals were favored to the disadvantage and even bullying of those who did not fit that group. That was wrong, has been recognized as wrong, and progress has been made to ameliorate the damage done. More needs to be done and there are still a few who won't acknowledge the changes or still fight against them. But is the solution to simply reverse things so that now a new grouping is privileged and the old one now is relegated to the bottom and kept there?

Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 29, 2021, 10:59:33 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Some people seem condemned or eager to continue to live as though the 1950s never ended. Has American society made no progress and no change with regard to racism, sexism, or genderism in the seventy years since 1951? Why must every discussion relating to race or gender be conducted as though conditions today are the same as they were back then?


Yup, because some people only remember the good about the 50s & 60s, e.g., full and growing churches; communities centered around church life, Sunday mornings, evenings, and Wednesday evenings as "church nights" where the community wouldn't plan any competing activities. Sexual topics were taboo. One couldn't even say "pregnant" on TV. When a teacher (even married ones) began to show a pregnancy, they had to stay home.



I was chastised when I read the Christmas story from the Good News Bible because it used the word "pregnant." I asked, "Should I have said, 'great with child'?" "Yes." "What does that mean?" There was a pause. "She was pregnant."


There is a desire among some (generally, those who were privileged at that time) to return to that world.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Matt Hummel on December 29, 2021, 11:20:11 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Some people seem condemned or eager to continue to live as though the 1950s never ended. Has American society made no progress and no change with regard to racism, sexism, or genderism in the seventy years since 1951? Why must every discussion relating to race or gender be conducted as though conditions today are the same as they were back then?


Yup, because some people only remember the good about the 50s & 60s, e.g., full and growing churches; communities centered around church life, Sunday mornings, evenings, and Wednesday evenings as "church nights" where the community wouldn't plan any competing activities. Sexual topics were taboo. One couldn't even say "pregnant" on TV. When a teacher (even married ones) began to show a pregnancy, they had to stay home.



I was chastised when I read the Christmas story from the Good News Bible because it used the word "pregnant." I asked, "Should I have said, 'great with child'?" "Yes." "What does that mean?" There was a pause. "She was pregnant."


There is a desire among some (generally, those who were privileged at that time) to return to that world.

Well my point is just that being a cisgendered heterosexual white male did not seem to give me any privileges when it came to bullying. My point is that it is wrong, it should be stopped, and not because the victim is an x. It should be stopped because there is a victim.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 29, 2021, 11:23:52 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Some people seem condemned or eager to continue to live as though the 1950s never ended. Has American society made no progress and no change with regard to racism, sexism, or genderism in the seventy years since 1951? Why must every discussion relating to race or gender be conducted as though conditions today are the same as they were back then?


Yup, because some people only remember the good about the 50s & 60s, e.g., full and growing churches; communities centered around church life, Sunday mornings, evenings, and Wednesday evenings as "church nights" where the community wouldn't plan any competing activities. Sexual topics were taboo. One couldn't even say "pregnant" on TV. When a teacher (even married ones) began to show a pregnancy, they had to stay home.



I was chastised when I read the Christmas story from the Good News Bible because it used the word "pregnant." I asked, "Should I have said, 'great with child'?" "Yes." "What does that mean?" There was a pause. "She was pregnant."


There is a desire among some (generally, those who were privileged at that time) to return to that world.
So, does that justify treating anyone who is not fully on board with the latest cutting-edge progressive fad to be treated as though they were stuck back in the 1950s? Some of us, I dare say many of us who are on the traditional side of the current culture wars recognize the failings of the 1950s and do not wish to return to those. Treating all conservatives or traditionalists as though we were unreconstructed 1950s racists, sexists, and genderists does not foster productive discussion. It just makes it seem that you divide the world into two groups, those who completely agree with you and the basket of deplorables. I decline to subscribe to your orthodoxy.


And yes, I do recognize that there are those who wish to return to that world. That is regrettable and those of us on the conservative side of things need to be aware of that and watchful that we do not lend support to that kind of regressive attitude. But do you really want to try to divide the world into either those who are with you all the way and those who wish to return to the 1950s in all its ugliness? Is nuance dead?
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dave Benke on December 29, 2021, 11:35:54 AM
Well. Fr. Hummel, people sure gave a whole lot less concern for what was happening to gay children. Matter of fact, most people were eager and willing to add to the bullying and disparagement of gay kids, or to kids deemed insufficiently “masculine” or “feminine.”
Some people seem condemned or eager to continue to live as though the 1950s never ended. Has American society made no progress and no change with regard to racism, sexism, or genderism in the seventy years since 1951? Why must every discussion relating to race or gender be conducted as though conditions today are the same as they were back then?


Yup, because some people only remember the good about the 50s & 60s, e.g., full and growing churches; communities centered around church life, Sunday mornings, evenings, and Wednesday evenings as "church nights" where the community wouldn't plan any competing activities. Sexual topics were taboo. One couldn't even say "pregnant" on TV. When a teacher (even married ones) began to show a pregnancy, they had to stay home.



I was chastised when I read the Christmas story from the Good News Bible because it used the word "pregnant." I asked, "Should I have said, 'great with child'?" "Yes." "What does that mean?" There was a pause. "She was pregnant."


There is a desire among some (generally, those who were privileged at that time) to return to that world.

That's a great conversation from the KJV days.   8)

I almost always revert to KVJ because that's the way I memorized the various passages.  The two that remain in play for many, many people are the 23rd Psalm and (the Protestant version of, in our circles) The Lord's Prayer.  We have taken to singing the latter, so now we have "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" as the default weekly version.  I like it in a poorer community because it includes economic misery as well as transgressive misery.

Dave Benke

To Dan's post, I think we do need more nuanced approaches coming from both edges.  Those interested in bringing nuances forward are going to come from the vast group of people in middle ground, not the culture warriors at the edges.  They view nuance as caving in.

To the substance of the discussion, the speed of the change toward LGBTQ folks including legislative has been culturally at warp speed.  That has been aided by the dramatic warp speed changes in communication and information sharing.  I have to think of my grandparents, who grew up and were raised quite literally in the horse and buggy era and were alive through the wars, the H-bomb, commercial air flight for the masses, man on the moon and a vaccine for a child-paralyzing disease (polio).  Those cultural/scientific changes, viewed as advances in tech, led to the belief in tech that a lot of folks are abandoning because of the other changes, which seem somehow inter-related.  200 years ago almost all of our forebears were in agriculture and lived in agricultural areas.  Lots to take in.

Dave Benke

Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 29, 2021, 11:57:24 AM
I would once again point to an article from the Atlantic online that I mentioned in a different thread: "Conservatives and Liberals are Wrong about Each Other" https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/conservatives-and-liberals-are-wrong-about-each-other/ar-AASb7Hc?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/conservatives-and-liberals-are-wrong-about-each-other/ar-AASb7Hc?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

The view that all or most conservatives are from the "Let's turn back the clock to the 1950s because things were good then" misunderstands most conservatives and confuses them with the regrettable minority who do want to go back. The number in that camp is often way overstated. Must progressives always fight the old battles? Perhaps because they had such success with those battles, they want to simply relive their glory days when great progress was made against truly evil opposition. So they want all their efforts today to be seen as the same.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 29, 2021, 12:50:03 PM
I believe the "battle" or at least most of it, for gay rights in the public arena is over. Gay marriage is legal; discrimination based on sexual orientation is generally illegal or at least proscribed in civil society.
No one needs to turn back clocks or fight old battles.
Frankly, I think we just ought to shut up about sexuality for a few years. I'd ask "conservatives" whether that is the only evil they want to fight. I'd ask "liberals" what more they think should be done. I'd ask everyone to just live with where we are for a few years.
    You don't like gay marriage? Don't enter into one and don't go if you are invited to attend a gay wedding. But don't do anything to marginalize or discriminate against those who do.
   You don't like it that your neighbor pastor opposes gay weddings or doesn't support the so-called "gay agenda" (whatever that is)? Leave him alone, he's probably not worth the blood and guts of battle. And his people are probably a lot more tolerant and accepting than he is.
    Tackle more pressing evils - like voting rights, being trampled all over our land; systemic racism, still working throughout our society; marginalizing of the poor, the mentally ill; crummy health care; and underpaid teachers in school systems where they have to buy their own teaching supplies.
    Take on your church or denomination for lousy pastoral salaries that hurt families and make a retirement fraught with economic insecurity. Hassle the church for ducking true evangelism and thinking that "pastoral care" means sticking with your own kind instead of reaching out. Have a word with the pastor who is obviously recycling old sermons in a new call. Help rid a congregation of a member who is a nay-saying clergy killer.
   Gay marriage or the "gay agenda" is not a blight that is destroying our society or our churches. Some of those other things are. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 29, 2021, 12:53:13 PM
As far as the American popular culture goes, I would welcome a return to the fifties.  I was born in 1953.  Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954.  Racism was on the wane a decade before MLK and the civil rights legislation of the sixties.  Besides repudiating racism, which I believe should be repudiated, I can't see any area where we have advanced culturally.  I see little good and much bad having resulted in the feminist and later the GLBTQ movements.  Granted, there were laws that were unfair to women that needed to be changed.  But look at what we have today!  A man who is a champion swimmer claims to be a woman and competes against women who have no chance of beating him because he's really a man.  I much prefer the country I was born in in 1953 to the country my grandchildren have been born in in the 21st century.  btw, my 71st grandchild was born on December 19 and born again at the Divine Service on Christmas Day.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on December 29, 2021, 01:39:25 PM
Stop the thread.
I want to hear about 71 grandchildren!
So fun!

Peter (Mormon ancestors make up for me not being so prolific) Garrison
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: DeHall1 on December 29, 2021, 01:45:16 PM
...Tackle more pressing evils - like voting rights, being trampled all over our land; systemic racism, still working throughout our society; marginalizing of the poor, the mentally ill; crummy health care; and underpaid teachers in school systems where they have to buy their own teaching supplies.
    Take on your church or denomination for lousy pastoral salaries that hurt families and make a retirement fraught with economic insecurity. Hassle the church for ducking true evangelism and thinking that "pastoral care" means sticking with your own kind instead of reaching out. Have a word with the pastor who is obviously recycling old sermons in a new call. Help rid a congregation of a member who is a nay-saying clergy killer.

There's "what should be done", and there's "what you are doing".

What I see from you is the former.  Tell me about the latter.  Perhaps we can find common ground.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dave Likeness on December 29, 2021, 03:45:00 PM
RDPreus has 71 grandchildren.......The current Guinness Book of Records has
Hans and Josie Shaffer of the United Kingdom with 99 grandchildren.  However
when you break it down it comes to 56 grandchildren and 43 great grandchildren.

Bottom Line:  RD Preus has possibly become the record holder for grandchildren
without counting great grandchildren.  This should be listed in the next issue of
The Lutheran Witness.   

Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 29, 2021, 04:42:56 PM
I’m 12 years older than you are, Pastor Preus:
I experienced as a teenager the decade in which you were born. It was great. Early rock ‘n’ roll was terrific.
But it was also a time of learning about the world and our society. Racism. The Cold War. The “police action“ in Korea. The nuclear threat. Polio and other medical difficulties. Mocking put downs of women, gays, and anyone not like we white folks. The church expanding its scope from previously narrow parameters of faith and worship. The church stepping out of our ethnic ghettos into a multicultural world.
Today, Pastor Preus, I’ll bet you and I would be on the opposite side of almost every question that would arise, Including the “goodness” of the 1950s, how to eat a pizza and what kind of girl we would like to go bowling with.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dave Benke on December 29, 2021, 04:53:08 PM
RDPreus has 71 grandchildren.......The current Guinness Book of Records has
Hans and Josie Shaffer of the United Kingdom with 99 grandchildren.  However
when you break it down it comes to 56 grandchildren and 43 great grandchildren.

Bottom Line:  RD Preus has possibly become the record holder for grandchildren
without counting great grandchildren.  This should be listed in the next issue of
The Lutheran Witness.   

I'll put a bid in for one of my parishioners who gave birth to 14 children, one of whom died in infancy, and has somewhere around 70 grandchildren, plus many great-grand.  Same ballpark.  I'll ask her for the current count and amount.  I asked her whether she knows all of the names of her grandchildren and great-grand.  Her response - "every one of them is known by name."  I am going to imagine it's the same for RD.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 29, 2021, 06:21:07 PM
Grandchildren Birthdays (last updated in December of 2021)

Jacob
Hans
Jewel
Rebekah
Magdeline
Hannah
Samuel
Paul
Katherine
Rolf
Andrew
James
David
John
Anastasia
Lena
Nadia
Severin
Christine
Jacob
Christian
Abraham
Søren
Idella
Elizabeth
Anne
Isaiah
Solveig
Noah
Martha
Sophia
John
Clara
Leif
Louisa
Kristiana
Andrew
Mary
Mark
Thomas
Elizabeth
Andreas
Job
Christopher
Robert
Kristin
Isaac
Heidi
Daniel
Eve
Abigail
Emily
Sarah
Marian
Lars
Moses
Matthew
Joseph
Herman
Dorothy
Pricilla
Stephen
Madeline
Naomi
Anna
Cephas
David
Sonja
Lucy
Peter
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 29, 2021, 06:26:44 PM
I’m 12 years older than you are, Pastor Preus:
I experienced as a teenager the decade in which you were born. It was great. Early rock ‘n’ roll was terrific.
But it was also a time of learning about the world and our society. Racism. The Cold War. The “police action“ in Korea. The nuclear threat. Polio and other medical difficulties. Mocking put downs of women, gays, and anyone not like we white folks. The church expanding its scope from previously narrow parameters of faith and worship. The church stepping out of our ethnic ghettos into a multicultural world.
Today, Pastor Preus, I’ll bet you and I would be on the opposite side of almost every question that would arise, Including the “goodness” of the 1950s, how to eat a pizza and what kind of girl we would like to go bowling with.

Let's see.  How to eat a pizza . . . With a knife and a fork?   :)
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rob Morris on December 29, 2021, 07:30:23 PM

Two thoughts...
1) Many congratulations!
2) You might not want to leave their full birth names, parents' names, and birth dates online... that's a lot of searchable data. Just a thought.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: RDPreus on December 29, 2021, 08:37:19 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I edited it.  Would you please edit your also?  Thanks!
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 29, 2021, 08:40:08 PM

Grandchildren Birthdays (last updated in December of 2021)

Jacob
Hans
Jewel
Rebekah
Magdeline
Hannah
Samuel
Paul
Katherine
Rolf
Andrew
James
David
John
Anastasia
Lena
Nadia
Severin
Christine
Jacob
Christian
Abraham
Søren
Idella
Elizabeth
Anne
Isaiah
Solveig
Noah
Martha
Sophia
John
Clara
Leif
Louisa
Kristiana
Andrew
Mary
Mark
Thomas
Elizabeth
Andreas
Job
Christopher
Robert
Kristin
Isaac
Heidi
Daniel
Eve
Abigail
Emily Ruth Preus (James and Theresa)         March 24, 2018
Sarah
Marian
Lars
Moses
Matthew
Joseph
Herman
Dorothy
Pricilla
Stephen
Madeline
Naomi
Anna
Cephas
David
Sonja
Lucy
Peter

And here I thought that one of my immigrant ancestors, Casper Glattfelder (emigrated 1743) was prolific with 55 grandchldren.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Rob Morris on December 29, 2021, 09:17:24 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I edited it.  Would you please edit your also?  Thanks!

Done! And now, just the congratulations remain unchanged. 😁
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Steven W Bohler on December 29, 2021, 09:54:19 PM
As far as the American popular culture goes, I would welcome a return to the fifties.  I was born in 1953.  Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954.  Racism was on the wane a decade before MLK and the civil rights legislation of the sixties.  Besides repudiating racism, which I believe should be repudiated, I can't see any area where we have advanced culturally.  I see little good and much bad having resulted in the feminist and later the GLBTQ movements.  Granted, there were laws that were unfair to women that needed to be changed.  But look at what we have today!  A man who is a champion swimmer claims to be a woman and competes against women who have no chance of beating him because he's really a man.  I much prefer the country I was born in in 1953 to the country my grandchildren have been born in in the 21st century.  btw, my 71st grandchild was born on December 19 and born again at the Divine Service on Christmas Day.

I was born in 1961 in Green Bay.  I feel bad for the young people today, having to grow up in the current culture, and wish they could have the same sort of life we knew back then.  Two parent families were the general rule.  Father working outside the home, mother working in the home.  Supper together as a family.  Very little TV and NO video games or computers or internet -- so our entertainment was in the family and/or with the other kids in the neighborhood (and there were LOTS of them!).  Playing outside in the fresh air.  Children taught to respect and obey adults -- ANY father or mother was expected to be heeded by the kids in the neighborhood.  While there were few minorities in our community, we were taught that people are people and must be respected as such.  A common view of morality.  I knew nothing about drugs and very little about alcohol usage -- the first time I saw someone under the influence of alcohol was when I was 10 or 11.  No vulgarities on TV -- now it seems that kids grow up constantly exposed to sex and violence and bad language even during "prime time".  Church attendance was normal rather than exceptional.  Wednesday evenings and Saturdays and Sundays were reserved for church activities -- no school events or sports on those days.  Being a good citizen was admired and extolled  and expected.  Sure, there were exceptions. But they were just that: exceptions.  And they were explained by our parents, with why such things were problematic. 
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 29, 2021, 10:21:10 PM
I was born in 1961 in Green Bay.  I feel bad for the young people today, having to grow up in the current culture, and wish they could have the same sort of life we knew back then.  Two parent families were the general rule.  Father working outside the home, mother working in the home.  Supper together as a family.  Very little TV and NO video games or computers or internet -- so our entertainment was in the family and/or with the other kids in the neighborhood (and there were LOTS of them!).  Playing outside in the fresh air.  Children taught to respect and obey adults -- ANY father or mother was expected to be heeded by the kids in the neighborhood.  While there were few minorities in our community, we were taught that people are people and must be respected as such.  A common view of morality.  I knew nothing about drugs and very little about alcohol usage -- the first time I saw someone under the influence of alcohol was when I was 10 or 11.  No vulgarities on TV -- now it seems that kids grow up constantly exposed to sex and violence and bad language even during "prime time".  Church attendance was normal rather than exceptional.  Wednesday evenings and Saturdays and Sundays were reserved for church activities -- no school events or sports on those days.  Being a good citizen was admired and extolled  and expected.  Sure, there were exceptions. But they were just that: exceptions.  And they were explained by our parents, with why such things were problematic.

Just one year ahead of you; and yes, much the same. 

In the household where I grew up it was a law of the Medes and Persians that you voted on Tuesday (irrespective of the weather or whether you "felt" like it) and you went to Church on Sunday....with the same non-caveats.

My first conscious memory of church is that of being rocked in the "cradle room" by the mother-in-law of the man who is still my barber.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 29, 2021, 11:48:13 PM
Pastor Bohler, you described my life growing up in the 1950s. Except that I was conscious of the Cold War, polio, and I took part in the gleeful mockery of anyone not like us. Maybe the turmoil of the 60s and 70s was slow to reach Green Bay.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dave Benke on December 30, 2021, 08:49:37 AM
Pastor Bohler, you described my life growing up in the 1950s. Except that I was conscious of the Cold War, polio, and I took part in the gleeful mockery of anyone not like us. Maybe the turmoil of the 60s and 70s was slow to reach Green Bay.

In terms of "gleeful mockery," some of the time you just don't know what you don't know.  When we moved to NY in the summer of 1973, I was one of a dozen new hires at the high school to which I was called.  And let's say half of us were from the midwest.  So we're at an orientation meeting clucking away at the Noo Yawk accents and how funny they sound.  And all of a sudden three of the other new hires just broke on us in laughter.  "Do you not even hear yourselves with that nasal midwestern twang?  You're here now.  You're the ones with the funny accents."  And they mimicked us.  Through the years those with the classic NYC accent have mostly moved to the Island or New Jersey or to the next life and the multi-national accents and phrases have taken over.  But my takeaway was the dawning realization that you often don't know what you don't know until it's pointed out to you.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 30, 2021, 12:33:59 PM
Pastor Bohler, you described my life growing up in the 1950s. Except that I was conscious of the Cold War, polio, and I took part in the gleeful mockery of anyone not like us. Maybe the turmoil of the 60s and 70s was slow to reach Green Bay.

In terms of "gleeful mockery," some of the time you just don't know what you don't know.  When we moved to NY in the summer of 1973, I was one of a dozen new hires at the high school to which I was called.  And let's say half of us were from the midwest.  So we're at an orientation meeting clucking away at the Noo Yawk accents and how funny they sound.  And all of a sudden three of the other new hires just broke on us in laughter.  "Do you not even hear yourselves with that nasal midwestern twang?  You're here now.  You're the ones with the funny accents."  And they mimicked us.  Through the years those with the classic NYC accent have mostly moved to the Island or New Jersey or to the next life and the multi-national accents and phrases have taken over.  But my takeaway was the dawning realization that you often don't know what you don't know until it's pointed out to you.


And, as a friend said about his training to be a Roman Catholic deacon: "I learned how much I didn't know."
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Charles Austin on December 30, 2021, 02:35:41 PM
It was the late 1950s, my involvement with the church, and my general “growing up“ that took me out of the blissful teenage world of the 50s into the real world. And I learned that my blissful, family centered teenage world was not the whole world, not even a major part of it.
Title: Re: ELCA Transgender Bishop in the News
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 31, 2021, 08:26:52 PM
Pr. Charles Austin, "Retired ELCA Pastor. You can say liberal Christians are wrong. You can say that you disagree with our interpretation of faith. But when you say we are driven by “culture” or “trendiness,” you prove that you do not listen to us. Luther fared better with Rome."

I see your point. Have you ever considered that when you say that us conservative Christians are driven by fear, revulsion, dedication to the founding 16th Century Lutheran documents, or wanting to be a victim, you demonstrate that you do not listen to us.