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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Harry Edmon on July 05, 2021, 12:11:51 PM

Title: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Harry Edmon on July 05, 2021, 12:11:51 PM
According to President Matthew Harrison the following resolution was passed at the Mid-South District Convention on July 3:

SUBJECT: TO REJECT RACISM AND ADVANCE THE GOSPEL

WHEREAS, God has created all people and they are blood related going back to our mutual fathers, Adam and Noah, and all are subject to the stain of original sin, but now also have been equally redeemed by the blood of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other; and

WHEREAS, God’s Word says, “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “’You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.” (James 2:8, 9); and

WHEREAS,  Racism (the sinful notion that some races are inherently superior to others),   misunderstanding, and strife are present in the world and experienced in congregations due to our sin; and

WHEREAS, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) abhors racism, and in convention has passed resolutions repudiating all racism, (see 1992 Res. 3-03 and 2019 Res. 11-04A); and

WHEREAS, Critical Race Theory (CRT) has become a common, multifaceted, and controversial theory for discussion of contemporary race relations; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That the Mid-South District in convention reject the world view of CRT, as it is contrary to Scripture and counterproductive to true racial conversation and reconciliation, for it pursues equality of outcome (“equity”) between racial groups, which requires treating individuals unequally based on race, and also reject all organizations, movements, petitions, and theological language that support that world view in a positive manner; and be it further

RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;

RESOLVED, That the circuits of the Mid-South District of the LCMS develop an objective mission and ministry action plan for outreach to diverse communities among us;

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to conduct conversations on race and diversity, to strengthen unity within the congregation; and be it further

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to engage members of their communities in these conversations, in light of Christ’s Gospel; and be it further

RESOLVED, We commend those within the LCMS Mid-South District who intentionally proclaim and work to reach out with the Gospel of Jesus to those who are different from themselves in the light of the Great Commission; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That the Mid-South District send this resolution to the Synod as it gathers at its 2023 Convention to do similarly.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on July 05, 2021, 12:39:44 PM
Tremendous news!  Thanks for sharing the text of the resolution.  My hope is that actual conversation takes place over this.  This is where all the "Call the question" delegates need to stay in their seats.  I would also hope that the group Lutheran for Racial Justice would speak and make their case.  Then the question can be called. 

Jeremy
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 05, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
WHEREAS, Critical Race Theory (CRT) has become a common, multifaceted, and controversial theory for discussion of contemporary race relations; therefore be it


Huh? From what I've read on Critical Race Theory, it supports all the previous "whereases" from a secular and historical viewpoint. It is not in conflict with a Christian approach to equality of all people.


Or, the resolution should show support for its contention that CRT is a "controversial theory for discussion of contemporary race relations." What seems controversial is that we are talking about racism, and the history of racism in America in ways we haven't done previously. There were people who were never taught that we had Japanese interment camps during WWII. Because our Lutheran ancestors were victims, we might be more aware of the persecution of German-Americans during WWI. At one congregation I served, the parsonage was burned down at that time. (The congregation still had German-language services. That soon stopped.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 05, 2021, 01:41:54 PM
RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   


● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality...

This is the part of CRT that I have struggled with the most.  The idea that I am "inherently racist" simply because I was born a while male.  That whatever I have and whatever I have accomplished is traced back to that 'advantage' of my skin color and the history of our country that favored that color.

Now I will admit that many atrocities were committed against minorities.  That's not the debate, at least for me. It's that racism is, in a way, 'cooked' into the very structure of our society - even today. And that I should apologize for all that my forebears have done over the last several hundreds of years of our nation's history.  And what is my responsibility for reparation of these atrocities?  Do I denounce my so-called status as a white American male?

CRT, some content, is only an academic theory mainly discussed in law schools. Or maybe even universities. But not in our lower elementary system.  But it is far more widespread than that. It is being discussed in elementary classrooms. We need to have discussion on this as a society.  Is this 'theory' going to define how people now interact in the future regarding their race?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: George Rahn on July 05, 2021, 02:16:20 PM
This brings up an over-arching matter as to what extent ought churches in general address political, social and cultural issues in terms of making public opinion.  I continue to wrestle with this. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 05, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
This brings up an over-arching matter as to what extent ought churches in general address political, social and cultural issues in terms of making public opinion.  I continue to wrestle with this.

There's the rabbit hole. 

My understanding, not referenced in specific, is that President Harrison himself spoke first about "CRT" in some blog or post, condemning it.  So the district resolution is an adjunct to his own already-taken position and may have been created to buttress more officially what had been blog-posted.

Fast-forwarding to the next national convention, as Jeremy has in his post, if and as this is given the old convention-session hash-through and then - in my estimation - passes in the way presented here by around 80-20, what happens next? 

If somebody says at a congregational Bible study, "There are aspects of critical race theory which I believe are on target Scripturally," does something happen to that person in terms of spiritual or ecclesiastical discipline? 

I think what's especially interesting in Jeremy's post is linking Lutherans for Racial Justice to this resolution.  The level of assumption in doing so seems presumptuous to me.  If the end-game is to have a majority vote and pinch it toward targeting one group in the LCMS, it will in my opinion backfire, big time.

All that being said, the Mid-South District, composed of the red-state trio Arkansas, Kentucky and Tennessee, has resolved to do a whole bunch of things that we can monitor and assess:

RESOLVED, That the circuits of the Mid-South District of the LCMS develop an objective mission and ministry action plan for outreach to diverse communities among us;

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to conduct conversations on race and diversity, to strengthen unity within the congregation; and be it further

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to engage members of their communities in these conversations, in light of Christ’s Gospel; and be it further

RESOLVED, We commend those within the LCMS Mid-South District who intentionally proclaim and work to reach out with the Gospel of Jesus to those who are different from themselves in the light of the Great Commission; and be it finally


So the way out of the rabbit hole is engage, conduct and develop an inclusive mission strategy.  I think Lutherans for Racial Justice, those whom I know, would give those resolveds a standing ovation. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 05, 2021, 02:44:04 PM
I thought we had a generally agreeable and favorable discussion about "Caste" the Wilkerson book. She writes, and I thought most of us liked it, about experiences and the conclusions she drew from them, along with some scholarly sociological analysis about "white privilege."
It is wrong, I believe to say that Critical Race Theory "categorizes" people based on race, that is, automatically names White citizens as racist. It is correct to say that white people today have benefitted from the racism of the past, a racism that persists, though in different ways than before, in key structures of society.
Consider the current struggle with voting rights.
Consider the economic inequalities, inequalities that are based on income, not race, but the fact is that AFrican Americans and other non-whites experience the inequalities more frequently than white Americans.
I think the district scraped together the worst possible image of CRT, got all huffy about it, and passed the resolution.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Harry Edmon on July 05, 2021, 02:54:09 PM
Several of the overtures to the District Convention that were addressed by the resolution explicitly mentioned Lutherans for Racial Justice. The convention was wise in not including such language in the final resolution and concentrating on the biblical issues involved.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 05, 2021, 03:09:55 PM
It is wrong, I believe to say that Critical Race Theory "categorizes" people based on race, that is, automatically names White citizens as racist.

Here are reports from actual lessons that say you are wrong. The links embedded in the articles show source documentation.

https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/antiracism-comes-to-the-heartland?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/identity-politics-in-cupertino-california-elementary-school?wallit_nosession=1

Consider the current struggle with voting rights.

What are you talking about? Please give three examples of actual people not having the right to vote.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 05, 2021, 05:36:15 PM
It is wrong, I believe to say that Critical Race Theory "categorizes" people based on race, that is, automatically names White citizens as racist.

Here are reports from actual lessons that say you are wrong. The links embedded in the articles show source documentation.

https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/antiracism-comes-to-the-heartland?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/identity-politics-in-cupertino-california-elementary-school?wallit_nosession=1

the “abolition” of whiteness.

This term stood out to me.  I was not really sure what it meant. Apparently "whiteness," in this sense, is a tendency to set limits in how far they (those identified as "white") will go in terms of true racial equality.  It is an effort to protect the advantages and privileges assumed in "whiteness."  "Whiteness" is enshrined, we are taught, in what we have called "American Civilization." "Whiteness" supposedly permeates everything in our society.  It is essentially irredeemable and must be destroyed.  Much of this was advanced by Noel Ignatiev.

Although "whiteness" is supposedly not the same as "white supremacy," it seems the two get put together at times.  There is a 'scale' of whiteness with "white supremacy" at one end (the worst) and "white abolitionist" at the other.  This last category seeks to dismantle whiteness which involves changing the institutions that support and encourage it.  The premise is that our current structure - governmental, business, education, etc. - still serves and supports "whiteness."  Or at least at a yet unacceptable level. 

From what we saw in the past year it appears that a complete reorganization and major defunding of law enforcement is part of the process of abolishing whiteness.  It also seems to involve a rewriting of history and the way we have historically taught it in our elementary and secondary schools.  Prison reform, likewise, is part of the efforts to "abolish whiteness," including looking at ending incarceration which is felt to be statistically against those who are not "white."

There is probably more, but I'm gathering that the "abolition of whiteness" is a complete overhaul of our culture and society. 

And it begins, I am assuming, by admitting that if I am white, I am already part of the problem. 

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 06:38:50 PM
It is wrong, I believe to say that Critical Race Theory "categorizes" people based on race, that is, automatically names White citizens as racist.

Here are reports from actual lessons that say you are wrong. The links embedded in the articles show source documentation.

https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/antiracism-comes-to-the-heartland?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/identity-politics-in-cupertino-california-elementary-school?wallit_nosession=1

the “abolition” of whiteness.

This term stood out to me.  I was not really sure what it meant. Apparently "whiteness," in this sense, is a tendency to set limits in how far they (those identified as "white") will go in terms of true racial equality.  It is an effort to protect the advantages and privileges assumed in "whiteness."  "Whiteness" is enshrined, we are taught, in what we have called "American Civilization." "Whiteness" supposedly permeates everything in our society.  It is essentially irredeemable and must be destroyed.  Much of this was advanced by Noel Ignatiev.

Although "whiteness" is supposedly not the same as "white supremacy," it seems the two get put together at times.  There is a 'scale' of whiteness with "white supremacy" at one end (the worst) and "white abolitionist" at the other.  This last category seeks to dismantle whiteness which involves changing the institutions that support and encourage it.  The premise is that our current structure - governmental, business, education, etc. - still serves and supports "whiteness."  Or at least at a yet unacceptable level. 

From what we saw in the past year it appears that a complete reorganization and major defunding of law enforcement is part of the process of abolishing whiteness.  It also seems to involve a rewriting of history and the way we have historically taught it in our elementary and secondary schools.  Prison reform, likewise, is part of the efforts to "abolish whiteness," including looking at ending incarceration which is felt to be statistically against those who are not "white."

There is probably more, but I'm gathering that the "abolition of whiteness" is a complete overhaul of our culture and society. 

And it begins, I am assuming, by admitting that if I am white, I am already part of the problem.

Here is the test -- and I admit I do not know enough about CRT to answer the question -- is "whiteness" something one is born with and cannot change?  Or is "whiteness" some sort of state of mind that one can adopt or reject?

If the former, this is plainly racism.  If the latter, then I suppose it doesn't matter because I can simply suggest I don't possess it and move on.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 05, 2021, 06:49:50 PM
It is wrong, I believe to say that Critical Race Theory "categorizes" people based on race, that is, automatically names White citizens as racist.

Here are reports from actual lessons that say you are wrong. The links embedded in the articles show source documentation.

https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/antiracism-comes-to-the-heartland?wallit_nosession=1
https://www.city-journal.org/identity-politics-in-cupertino-california-elementary-school?wallit_nosession=1

the “abolition” of whiteness.

This term stood out to me.  I was not really sure what it meant. Apparently "whiteness," in this sense, is a tendency to set limits in how far they (those identified as "white") will go in terms of true racial equality.  It is an effort to protect the advantages and privileges assumed in "whiteness."  "Whiteness" is enshrined, we are taught, in what we have called "American Civilization." "Whiteness" supposedly permeates everything in our society.  It is essentially irredeemable and must be destroyed.  Much of this was advanced by Noel Ignatiev.

Although "whiteness" is supposedly not the same as "white supremacy," it seems the two get put together at times.  There is a 'scale' of whiteness with "white supremacy" at one end (the worst) and "white abolitionist" at the other.  This last category seeks to dismantle whiteness which involves changing the institutions that support and encourage it.  The premise is that our current structure - governmental, business, education, etc. - still serves and supports "whiteness."  Or at least at a yet unacceptable level. 

From what we saw in the past year it appears that a complete reorganization and major defunding of law enforcement is part of the process of abolishing whiteness.  It also seems to involve a rewriting of history and the way we have historically taught it in our elementary and secondary schools.  Prison reform, likewise, is part of the efforts to "abolish whiteness," including looking at ending incarceration which is felt to be statistically against those who are not "white."

There is probably more, but I'm gathering that the "abolition of whiteness" is a complete overhaul of our culture and society. 

And it begins, I am assuming, by admitting that if I am white, I am already part of the problem.

Here is the test -- and I admit I do not know enough about CRT to answer the question -- is "whiteness" something one is born with and cannot change?  Or is "whiteness" some sort of state of mind that one can adopt or reject?

If the former, this is plainly racism.  If the latter, then I suppose it doesn't matter because I can simply suggest I don't possess it and move on.

If I understand it correctly, "whiteness" is the protection and privilege of those identified as "white" which was built upon historic atrocities that still perpetuate current structures, practices, and organizations.

If that is the case, I don't think that those who accuse others of being guilty of "whiteness" would be content with people simply suggesting they are not guilty and then moving on.  They would like the structures that are supposedly protected and privileged by "whiteness" to be abolished and remade.  If there is "systemic racism," then there must be "systemic" change and overhaul of the entire system of government, the economy, education, etc.  "Whiteness," as generally defined, is not redeemable.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 05, 2021, 07:20:56 PM
If I understand it correctly, "whiteness" is the protection and privilege of those identified as "white" which was built upon historic atrocities that still perpetuate current structures, practices, and organizations.

If that is the case, I don't think that those who accuse others of being guilty of "whiteness" would be content with people simply suggesting they are not guilty and then moving on.  They would like the structures that are supposedly protected and privileged by "whiteness" to be abolished and remade.  If there is "systemic racism," then there must be "systemic" change and overhaul of the entire system of government, the economy, education, etc.  "Whiteness," as generally defined, is not redeemable.

In that case, they are hampered by their own language.  Because power systems and institutions that protect white power are not best explained by the word "whiteness," which sounds like something else.

Much as with the redefinition of "racism" to include things one does not mean to be "racist," such as being able to go to college (something I was the first of my grandfather's children or grandchildren to accomplish), etc. as "racist."  I suspect the use of a non-descriptive term is intentional, intended to allow for equivocation.  But even if it is merely horrible judgment, it is in fact that.

For my part, I will simply continue to advocate for the eradication of inequities such as increased police attention, disparity in sentencing, etc. Perhaps it is lazy, but I'm way too old at this point to learn a new way of talking that seems like it was sent from the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 05, 2021, 08:20:04 PM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 05, 2021, 09:02:53 PM
RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   


● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality...

This is the part of CRT that I have struggled with the most.  The idea that I am "inherently racist" simply because I was born a while male.  That whatever I have and whatever I have accomplished is traced back to that 'advantage' of my skin color and the history of our country that favored that color.

Now I will admit that many atrocities were committed against minorities.  That's not the debate, at least for me. It's that racism is, in a way, 'cooked' into the very structure of our society - even today. And that I should apologize for all that my forebears have done over the last several hundreds of years of our nation's history.  And what is my responsibility for reparation of these atrocities?  Do I denounce my so-called status as a white American male?

CRT, some content, is only an academic theory mainly discussed in law schools. Or maybe even universities. But not in our lower elementary system.  But it is far more widespread than that. It is being discussed in elementary classrooms. We need to have discussion on this as a society.  Is this 'theory' going to define how people now interact in the future regarding their race?


I would contend that racism is cooked into our human nature. It's part of our sinfulness. It seems that the histories of every civilization includes racist elements. (Not usually based on the color of skin; although that's an obvious difference.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 05, 2021, 09:05:34 PM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer

What about the resolution "grieves" you?  Is it that the resolution "rejects CRT" or something else?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Norman Teigen on July 06, 2021, 02:03:02 AM
Reading suggestion:   Clint Smith, "How the Word is Passed -  A Reckoning with the History of Slavery Across America,"  2021.

From today's NY Times:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/05/opinion/anti-critical-race-theory-laws-are-un-american.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

"Let’s not mince words about these laws. They are speech codes. They seek to change public education by banning the expression of ideas. Even if this censorship is legal in the narrow context of public primary and secondary education, it is antithetical to educating students in the culture of American free expression.

"There will always be disagreement about any nation’s history. The United States is no exception. If history is to judge the United States as exceptional, it is because we welcome such contestation in our public spaces as part of our unfolding national ethos. It is a violation of this commonly shared vision of America as a nation of free, vigorous and open debate to resort to the apparatus of the government to shut it down."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 06, 2021, 07:53:55 AM
If you read the overtures to the District Convention that were addressed by the resolution several of them explicitly mentioned Lutherans for Racial Justice. The convention was wise in not including such language in the final resolution and concentrating on the biblical issues involved.

You made me look it up, Harry Edmon.  That was fun.  Of course the overtures, from a congregation and mirrored in that congregation's circuit, tell us just what mischief LRJ has been up to, in the opinion of the overture-writer(s).  The result is that whatever the wording in the final resolution, it's actually aimed at LRJ, which was my takeaway from Jeremy's comments. 

So the design is to put LRJ on mute in that Great Zoom Meeting called the LCMS, even with praiseworthy "resolveds" in the resolution finally accepted.

The weird item that turned up in that search is that the congregation authoring the overture is located in McMinnville, TN, and the pastor's surname is McMinn.  Pr. Dave Benke serving St. David's, Benkeville, where all the residents are members and all the members are residents and all the people are left-handed just like Pastor B.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 08:42:32 AM
RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   


● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality...

This is the part of CRT that I have struggled with the most.  The idea that I am "inherently racist" simply because I was born a while male.  That whatever I have and whatever I have accomplished is traced back to that 'advantage' of my skin color and the history of our country that favored that color.

Now I will admit that many atrocities were committed against minorities.  That's not the debate, at least for me. It's that racism is, in a way, 'cooked' into the very structure of our society - even today. And that I should apologize for all that my forebears have done over the last several hundreds of years of our nation's history.  And what is my responsibility for reparation of these atrocities?  Do I denounce my so-called status as a white American male?

CRT, some content, is only an academic theory mainly discussed in law schools. Or maybe even universities. But not in our lower elementary system.  But it is far more widespread than that. It is being discussed in elementary classrooms. We need to have discussion on this as a society.  Is this 'theory' going to define how people now interact in the future regarding their race?


I would contend that racism is cooked into our human nature. It's part of our sinfulness. It seems that the histories of every civilization includes racist elements. (Not usually based on the color of skin; although that's an obvious difference.)

So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"? And if this is true, do you now want the culture and society in which you live rebuilt to "abolish" this "whiteness"?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 09:52:21 AM
In some places there is a practice of dividing people up based on their perceived status as "oppressed" or "not oppressed."  For example: man/oppressor, woman/oppressed; black/oppressed, white/oppressor, and so on.  "Oppressed people" is defined in the Urban Dictionary as "People who are unfairly being robbed of freedoms"?

Is this practice fair?  Does it not contribute to the ongoing tension to label entire groups in this way, not to mention demeaning to some who may not actually feel "oppressed"? Does this not create a victim class and target people as guilty of things which are they are guilty of?

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 06, 2021, 10:01:15 AM
If you read the overtures to the District Convention that were addressed by the resolution several of them explicitly mentioned Lutherans for Racial Justice. The convention was wise in not including such language in the final resolution and concentrating on the biblical issues involved.

You made me look it up, Harry Edmon.  That was fun.  Of course the overtures, from a congregation and mirrored in that congregation's circuit, tell us just what mischief LRJ has been up to, in the opinion of the overture-writer(s).  The result is that whatever the wording in the final resolution, it's actually aimed at LRJ, which was my takeaway from Jeremy's comments. 

So the design is to put LRJ on mute in that Great Zoom Meeting called the LCMS, even with praiseworthy "resolveds" in the resolution finally accepted.

The weird item that turned up in that search is that the congregation authoring the overture is located in McMinnville, TN, and the pastor's surname is McMinn.  Pr. Dave Benke serving St. David's, Benkeville, where all the residents are members and all the members are residents and all the people are left-handed just like Pastor B.

Dave Benke

That congregation put forth two separate overtures, one dealing with CRT and Lutherans for Racial Justice and the other dealing with CRT and its worldview. It looks like the floor committee merged the overtures and, most importantly, removed the reference to LRJ.

Regardless of what the congregation wanted in one of its overtures, what the convention actually passed was, I think, a solid resolution and that is what matters.

I hope the leadership of LRJ respond to the resolution; I'd be interested in reading their response. But I would also hope they respond to the resolution itself and not to its "legislative history."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: RevG on July 06, 2021, 10:05:36 AM
If you read the overtures to the District Convention that were addressed by the resolution several of them explicitly mentioned Lutherans for Racial Justice. The convention was wise in not including such language in the final resolution and concentrating on the biblical issues involved.

You made me look it up, Harry Edmon.  That was fun.  Of course the overtures, from a congregation and mirrored in that congregation's circuit, tell us just what mischief LRJ has been up to, in the opinion of the overture-writer(s).  The result is that whatever the wording in the final resolution, it's actually aimed at LRJ, which was my takeaway from Jeremy's comments. 

So the design is to put LRJ on mute in that Great Zoom Meeting called the LCMS, even with praiseworthy "resolveds" in the resolution finally accepted.

The weird item that turned up in that search is that the congregation authoring the overture is located in McMinnville, TN, and the pastor's surname is McMinn.  Pr. Dave Benke serving St. David's, Benkeville, where all the residents are members and all the members are residents and all the people are left-handed just like Pastor B.

Dave Benke

You know I have actually been to that church.  I have close college friend who lives in that area and his father-in-law was at one time an active deacon in the area. 

Anyways, here’s what strikes me as rather interesting.  Because some districts went ahead and had their conventions like the Mid-South does this mean we are now poised to have a resolution battle via district conventions?   I would think there were some resolutions coming down the pike in support of LRJ, does this mean they will be reworded and phrased in order to rebuff this resolution?   Is that possible?  Should be an interesting coming year of district conventions.

Peace,
Scott+
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 06, 2021, 10:20:00 AM
If you read the overtures to the District Convention that were addressed by the resolution several of them explicitly mentioned Lutherans for Racial Justice. The convention was wise in not including such language in the final resolution and concentrating on the biblical issues involved.

You made me look it up, Harry Edmon.  That was fun.  Of course the overtures, from a congregation and mirrored in that congregation's circuit, tell us just what mischief LRJ has been up to, in the opinion of the overture-writer(s).  The result is that whatever the wording in the final resolution, it's actually aimed at LRJ, which was my takeaway from Jeremy's comments. 

So the design is to put LRJ on mute in that Great Zoom Meeting called the LCMS, even with praiseworthy "resolveds" in the resolution finally accepted.

The weird item that turned up in that search is that the congregation authoring the overture is located in McMinnville, TN, and the pastor's surname is McMinn.  Pr. Dave Benke serving St. David's, Benkeville, where all the residents are members and all the members are residents and all the people are left-handed just like Pastor B.

Dave Benke

You know I have actually been to that church.  I have close college friend who lives in that area and his father-in-law was at one time an active deacon in the area. 

Anyways, here’s what strikes me as rather interesting.  Because some districts went ahead and had their conventions like the Mid-South does this mean we are now poised to have a resolution battle via district conventions?   I would think there were some resolutions coming down the pike in support of LRJ, does this mean they will be reworded and phrased in order to rebuff this resolution?   Is that possible?  Should be an interesting coming year of district conventions.

Peace,
Scott+

Yes it will be an interesting year in terms of resolution preparation.  The Synodical convention is two years out, but it's ramp-up time.  With the district convention schedule all over the place, everything will be relatively in slow motion.  This just is a sneak preview.  I think it has more to do with the LCMS Presidential election than with anything else. 

That being said, as I mentioned, the LRJ folks could have written the actual resolveds from the Mid-South resolution.  There is a ferocity in what brought the resolveds about that is where the emotional action is located.  Are there problems with aspects of Critical Race Theory?  Of course.  Are there aspects of it that are useful in understanding not only individuals but treatment over time of people in and from so-called minority communities in our country?  Yes. 

The LRJ folks are sharp, young, mission-outreach-oriented, and interested in exploring all things concerned with racial justice.  Keep on keeping on, is my advice to them.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 06, 2021, 10:26:24 AM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer

What about the resolution "grieves" you?  Is it that the resolution "rejects CRT" or something else?

Pr. Engebretson, What prompts you to ask if there is "something else?"     What in my post suggests your question?

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 06, 2021, 10:30:42 AM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer

What about the resolution "grieves" you?  Is it that the resolution "rejects CRT" or something else?

Pr. Engebretson, What prompts you to ask if there is "something else?"     What in my post suggests your question?

Marie Meyer

As I read it, Pr. Engebretson was surprised you would be grieved by a mere rejection of CRT, and was wondering basically "is that all?"

Perhaps I misread him, but I don't think it's anything nefarious.  Dr. Benke has said he reads the resolution as a rejection of the work of LRJ, of which I am unfamiliar and cannot comment, but if one were a supporter of LRJ's work and thought LRJ's work did not promote CRT, that would be a reason other than rejection of CRT that might grieve a person.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 10:32:55 AM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer

What about the resolution "grieves" you?  Is it that the resolution "rejects CRT" or something else?

Pr. Engebretson, What prompts you to ask if there is "something else?"     What in my post suggests your question?

Marie Meyer

I think it was simply an attempt to cover anything else in the resolution that bothered you.  I just wondered about the specifics behind your "grieving" over the resolution. 

As I was typing this David Garner replied first.  He captures my intent.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 06, 2021, 10:57:22 AM

Yes it will be an interesting year in terms of resolution preparation.  The Synodical convention is two years out, but it's ramp-up time.  With the district convention schedule all over the place, everything will be relatively in slow motion.  This just is a sneak preview.  I think it has more to do with the LCMS Presidential election than with anything else. 

Really? I don't see how this connects to the LCMS election at all. I can't see any candidate for LCMS president endorsing CRT.


That being said, as I mentioned, the LRJ folks could have written the actual resolveds from the Mid-South resolution.  There is a ferocity in what brought the resolveds about that is where the emotional action is located.  Are there problems with aspects of Critical Race Theory?  Of course.  Are there aspects of it that are useful in understanding not only individuals but treatment over time of people in and from so-called minority communities in our country?  Yes. 

That "the LRJ folks could have written the actual resolveds from the Mid-South resolution," is key. That shows there is no real actual disagreement here; everyone agrees that CRT and its worldview are problematic from an Evangelical Lutheran perspective.

As to the underlying overtures, I get that the pastor has some concerns about LRJ. My question is whether or not he actually spoke to any of the pastors associated with it to get their perspective. It seems to me that this is something that needs some dialogue. My guess is that this pastor and the pastors in LRJ agree on more than they disagree and that the disagreements could be worked through.

As to Scott's question as to whether or not there will be other District resolutions supporting LRJ, I would say yes, but I would have expected those regardless of this resolution. I think many pastors, congregations and circuits would agree with your assessment, "The LRJ folks are sharp, young, mission-outreach-oriented, and interested in exploring all things concerned with racial justice", and would support them accordingly.

I don't know enough about them to comment and I don't think this congregation in Tennessee does either, which is really the sad part.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: John_Hannah on July 06, 2021, 11:00:54 AM
Are there LCMS pastors or congregations advocating CRT making this resolution necessary? It doesn't seem so.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Likeness on July 06, 2021, 11:51:46 AM
Many of the resolutions at LCMS national conventions are simply reaffirmations of the same
recycled issues.  Yes, the LCMS is in favor of Chevy, Apple Pie, and Motherhood.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 06, 2021, 12:18:03 PM
Someone asks:
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"?
I answer:
Not “all I have done in my life“, but being white has given me privileges and put me in places that helped me along with help that I would not have had if I were African-American, Native American or a recent immigrant.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 06, 2021, 12:30:09 PM
Someone asks:
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"?
I answer:
Not “all I have done in my life“, but being white has given me privileges and put me in places that helped me along with help that I would not have had if I were African-American, Native American or a recent immigrant.
If we grant that being white have given us privileges and opportunities that we would not have had otherwise, what should be the consequence of that?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 06, 2021, 12:40:11 PM
Someone asks:
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"?
I answer:
Not “all I have done in my life“, but being white has given me privileges and put me in places that helped me along with help that I would not have had if I were African-American, Native American or a recent immigrant.
If we grant that being white have given us privileges and opportunities that we would not have had otherwise, what should be the consequence of that?
We should learn, cultivate, and actively exercise the virtues appropriate to the advantages we have received. From those to whom more has been given--especially if those advantages were bolstered by injustice to others--more will be required. We may not be able to undo the injustices (in fact, we almost certainly can't), but we should assume extra obligations without complaint and try to mitigate the effects of past and present injustice.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 06, 2021, 12:56:24 PM
Someone asks:
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"?
I answer:
Not “all I have done in my life“, but being white has given me privileges and put me in places that helped me along with help that I would not have had if I were African-American, Native American or a recent immigrant.
If we grant that being white have given us privileges and opportunities that we would not have had otherwise, what should be the consequence of that?
We should learn, cultivate, and actively exercise the virtues appropriate to the advantages we have received. From those to whom more has been given--especially if those advantages were bolstered by injustice to others--more will be required. We may not be able to undo the injustices (in fact, we almost certainly can't), but we should assume extra obligations without complaint and try to mitigate the effects of past and present injustice.

Peace,
Michael

Any extra obligations?  I mean, I agree with you in principle.  The problem seems to arise when we start to articulate exactly what obligations we ought assume.  For example, I am in favor of changing laws to eradicate racial disparity in sentencing and police attention.  I am in favor of tax dollars being paid to help foster this.

I am not in favor of being silenced because I am white and therefore not entitled to a say in the discussion.  I think that's racist.

At some level, it is not the principle, but the specifics, that are troublesome.  I've taught my children that there is a middle way between adopting all of the demands of the loosely connected "Black Lives Matter" movement and adopting the equally problematic "All Lives Matter" corollary and refusing to accept the truth that black lives do, indeed, matter.  Of course it is true that all lives matter.  The point is black lives matter too, and all lives are not as easily discarded, and therefore extra attention is warranted where the problem is -- too many black people are killed in this country at the hands of the police.

Or the abortionist, but I digress.

Yet, my children do not have to become Marxists to accept that truth.  They can agree with the sentiment "black lives matter" without adopting the methods and goals of the organization.  So it is here. I agree with you we ought, as those who have been advantaged by institutional policies that harm black Americans, endeavor to undo that damage, inasmuch as we are able.  But until someone says "this is what you must do," the sentiment and my agreement with it are largely meaningless.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 01:07:09 PM
Someone asks:
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"?
I answer:
Not “all I have done in my life“, but being white has given me privileges and put me in places that helped me along with help that I would not have had if I were African-American, Native American or a recent immigrant.

Perhaps in your day, 50-60 years ago, that may have been true.  But today it is white males who go to the back of the line.  With the consent/approval of the government.  Colleges lower admission standards for minorities and women.  Affirmation Action hiring of less qualified candidates based simply on skin color or gender.  Blame from media, education establishment, popular culture for virtually ALL ills in society.  And on and on.  So, if YOU feel you had "white privilege" then by all means apologize for it for yourself.  But do not arrogate the same attitude towards other white males who have NOT had such perceived advantages.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 01:40:10 PM
So by extension, given your inherent "whiteness", do you believe that you are therefore a racist yourself and that all you have and all you have done in your life is owed to the supposed privileges you have enjoyed due to that "whiteness"? And if this is true, do you now want the culture and society in which you live rebuilt to "abolish" this "whiteness"?


I'm a bit unique. My "whiteness" also includes Jewish ancestors - some of the most persecuted people in history. Being "white" even in America, doesn't mean there will be no persecution. My mother experienced some of that. She felt more in common with the Black students in high school than with white students. She brought a greater openness to others to our family than we might have had otherwise.


I believe I was privileged. I had opportunities that many others didn't have. My brothers and I all got through college and graduate schools without any debts. I also think that there's a difference between racism and naïveté. My mother tells of the first time I saw a Black person (a porter on a train). I was about two-year-old. I said something like, "Look at that dirty person." Those words may sound racist, but from a two-year-old they were words expressing a lack of experience and knowledge. My mother quickly apologized and corrected my incomplete understanding.


Besides having privileges that come from being a moderately wealthy white family in the suburbs, I also admit that I grew up quite ignorant about people from other races. There were 694 people in my high school class. Only two of them were Black. (I just checked the year book.) I didn't interact with either of them. I didn't know about their life experiences. I've since had close friends from minority races, but still lack a lot of knowledge about their experiences growing up Black or Native or Asian or Latinx in America. I have made comments that were heard as racists without knowing it.


I've also been in a position of selecting worship leaders for synod worship services. One of our goals is to be inclusive. I never selected a person of color just because they were people of color; but from a group of people who were all good readers, the female and or person of color might get selected before a white male. If the bishop was preaching, and he often did at one service, we would look for a female clergy to preside. We selected males and females, young and old, to distribute the sacrament to the hundreds in attendance. On one hand, I didn't like having expected "quotas," but on the other hand, I knew that visible inclusivity represents the coming kingdom of God. I believe that we should manifested that future kingdom as much as possible among the believers now.


The first "message" I remember preaching, even before I was ordained, while traveling on gospel teams, was about whether or not one would be comfortable in heaven with all those other people God had let in: people from every race, tribe, language, denomination, etc. If one wasn't comfortable with them here on earth, one might not be comfortable in heaven. (Today I would probably include conservatives and liberals, traditionalists and progressives in the mix of the heavenly crowd.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 01:42:22 PM
Are there LCMS pastors or congregations advocating CRT making this resolution necessary? It doesn't seem so.


I'm not an LCMS pastor, but I did see the attached meme on Facebook, and shared it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 06, 2021, 01:49:16 PM
Are there LCMS pastors or congregations advocating CRT making this resolution necessary? It doesn't seem so.

I'm not an LCMS pastor, but I did see the attached meme on Facebook, and shared it.

Thank you for your daily example of total illogic.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 06, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
Pastor Bohler:
With the consent/approval of the government.  Colleges lower admission standards for minorities and women.  Affirmation Action hiring of less qualified candidates based simply on skin color or gender. 

Me:
And that may be some of the “extra obligations“ that father Slusser mentioned.
I don’t think I care for all of it either, but get over it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 06, 2021, 02:00:46 PM
Lutheran Church -Missouri Synod president, Matthew Harrison, posted the Mid South District CRT resolution on Facebook.  His comments begin with one word.  ""Excellent."

I find it totally inappropriate  that the president of my church would use the social media in this way.  What has the LCMS come to?

Former Atlantic District president David Benke offered a resolution that reflects how Christian pastors, particularly those who identify themselves as Lutheran, are called to lead their people in the mission of the Church.

In heart and mind I grieve that the resolution was adopted and that President Harrison posted it on Facebook with his endorsement.

Marie Meyer

What about the resolution "grieves" you?  Is it that the resolution "rejects CRT" or something else?

Pr. Engebretson, What prompts you to ask if there is "something else?"     What in my post suggests your question?

Marie Meyer

I think it was simply an attempt to cover anything else in the resolution that bothered you.  I just wondered about the specifics behind your "grieving" over the resolution. 

As I was typing this David Garner replied first.  He captures my intent.

From David Garner.....
"As I read it, Pr. Engebretson was surprised you would be grieved by a mere rejection of CRT, and was wondering basically "is that all?"

Perhaps I misread him, but I don't think it's anything nefarious.  Dr. Benke has said he reads the resolution as a rejection of the work of LRJ, of which I am unfamiliar and cannot comment, but if one were a supporter of LRJ's work and thought LRJ's work did not promote CRT, that would be a reason other than rejection of CRT that might grieve a person."

Permit me to explain.

I first read about the Southern District resolution on Facebook, not on the Lutheran Forum where matters of faith are discussed.  Only after the district resolution on CRT was posted here did I report that the resolution appeared on Facebook with President Matthew Harrison's one word comment, "Excellent."

I was grieved that the subject of a resolution as adopted by an LCMS District and endorsed by the synodical present appeared on a social media platform.  I do not consider Facebook a media that allows for a thoughtful discussion of issues where politics, morality and theology intersect.  One word comments do not offer an opportunity for a teachable moment, nor do they open minds for being teachable.   

IMO, past and present issues related to race relations in our country continue to provide "teachable moments."   For example, while visiting a museum with several grandsons, one was troubled by the photo of a lynching that took place during the Jim Crow era.  it was a teachable moment, not to make him feel guilty for being white, but a moment simply to explain what happened in that time of our nation's history.

I am also persuaded all American citizens benefit from being "teachable" about the reality of our history.  For this reason I think CRT merits consideration. 

As a Lutheran, I look to LCMS leaders to recognize how racism, past and in present,  provide "teachable moments" in the Kingdom of the Left. At issue is recognizing how best do we, citizens of the Right, address a moral issue in the Kingdom of the Left. To do this I submit we  have to open ourselves to being taught, first by Scripture, but also by our history as citizens of the United States of  America. 

IMO, the resolution passed by the Southern District, endorsed by the LCMS president and promoted here by fellow LCMS for further similar resolutions  in other districts do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation.

For this reason, I am persuaded that LCMS pastors and laity must give careful attention to the up or down CRT resolution put before delegates to an LCMS district convention.   

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on July 06, 2021, 02:16:51 PM
Are there LCMS pastors or congregations advocating CRT making this resolution necessary? It doesn't seem so.


I'm not an LCMS pastor, but I did see the attached meme on Facebook, and shared it.

That meme was from an LCMS pastor?  I think it's a pretty big load of idealistic BS.  There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 

Jeremy
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on July 06, 2021, 02:19:16 PM
Either I didn't use the quote function properly, but the meme didn't show up in the portion I quoted.  You can find it in a post from Pastor Stoffregen upstream.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 06, 2021, 02:22:58 PM
Are there LCMS pastors or congregations advocating CRT making this resolution necessary? It doesn't seem so.


I'm not an LCMS pastor, but I did see the attached meme on Facebook, and shared it.

That meme was from an LCMS pastor?  I think it's a pretty big load of idealistic BS.  There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 

Jeremy

Nor are they logically connected using the term "hate."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 06, 2021, 02:28:05 PM
"At least nine Catholic and Anglican churches across Canada have gone up in flames amid a backlash over the country's use of church-run residential schools to forcibly assimilate indigenous children from the late 19th century until the 1970s."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-church-fires-first-nation-residential-schools-graves?cmpid=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR2p4g9-Nhhy8lvH7sU23Iq4-PayhnN6sGGxO-VCJSLPPWuM3yHsekmwk-Y
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 06, 2021, 02:36:34 PM
From David Garner.....
"As I read it, Pr. Engebretson was surprised you would be grieved by a mere rejection of CRT, and was wondering basically "is that all?"

Perhaps I misread him, but I don't think it's anything nefarious.  Dr. Benke has said he reads the resolution as a rejection of the work of LRJ, of which I am unfamiliar and cannot comment, but if one were a supporter of LRJ's work and thought LRJ's work did not promote CRT, that would be a reason other than rejection of CRT that might grieve a person."

Permit me to explain.

I first read about the Southern District resolution on Facebook, not on the Lutheran Forum where matters of faith are discussed.  Only after the district resolution on CRT was posted here did I report that the resolution appeared on Facebook with President Matthew Harrison's one word comment, "Excellent."

I was grieved that the subject of a resolution as adopted by an LCMS District and endorsed by the synodical present appeared on a social media platform.  I do not consider Facebook a media that allows for a thoughtful discussion of issues where politics, morality and theology intersect.  One word comments do not offer an opportunity for a teachable moment, nor do they open minds for being teachable.   

IMO, past and present issues related to race relations in our country continue to provide "teachable moments."   For example, while visiting a museum with several grandsons, one was troubled by the photo of a lynching that took place during the Jim Crow era.  it was a teachable moment, not to make him feel guilty for being white, but a moment simply to explain what happened in that time of our nation's history.

I am also persuaded all American citizens benefit from being "teachable" about the reality of our history.  For this reason I think CRT merits consideration. 

As a Lutheran, I look to LCMS leaders to recognize how racism, past and in present,  provide "teachable moments" in the Kingdom of the Left. At issue is recognizing how best do we, citizens of the Right, address a moral issue in the Kingdom of the Left. To do this I submit we  have to open ourselves to being taught, first by Scripture, but also by our history as citizens of the United States of  America. 

IMO, the resolution passed by the Southern District, endorsed by the LCMS president and promoted here by fellow LCMS for further similar resolutions  in other districts do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation.

For this reason, I am persuaded that LCMS pastors and laity must give careful attention to the up or down CRT resolution put before delegates to an LCMS district convention.   

Marie Meyer

Which of these resolutions SPECIFICALLY "do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation."?


RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;

RESOLVED, That the circuits of the Mid-South District of the LCMS develop an objective mission and ministry action plan for outreach to diverse communities among us;

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to conduct conversations on race and diversity, to strengthen unity within the congregation; and be it further

RESOLVED, That the congregations of the LCMS Mid-South District be encouraged to engage members of their communities in these conversations, in light of Christ’s Gospel; and be it further

RESOLVED, We commend those within the LCMS Mid-South District who intentionally proclaim and work to reach out with the Gospel of Jesus to those who are different from themselves in the light of the Great Commission; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That the Mid-South District send this resolution to the Synod as it gathers at its 2023 Convention to do similarly.


De Hall
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: pearson on July 06, 2021, 03:02:09 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson         
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 03:10:00 PM
Pastor Bohler:
With the consent/approval of the government.  Colleges lower admission standards for minorities and women.  Affirmation Action hiring of less qualified candidates based simply on skin color or gender. 

Me:
And that may be some of the “extra obligations“ that father Slusser mentioned.
I don’t think I care for all of it either, but get over it.

The point, Rev. Austin, is that if you think that YOU benefitted unfairly by being white, that is one thing.  But for you to claim that ALL whites have -- and currently do -- benefit, that is another.  And it would be flat-out wrong.  Get over it?  Tell that to the young white man who was denied admission to the college of his choice simply because he was a white male.  Or the young white man who was passed over for promotion in favor of one less qualified, simply because he was a white male.  If you want to do penance for unfair advantages you personally received, go ahead.  But do not tell that young white male who has been denied equal treatment that it is fair -- HE did not benefit from "white privilege", YOU did.  And now you want him to not only pay the piper for your unfair advantages, you want him to say "thank you, sir, may I have another?".  My goodness, man, do you not see the evil of that?  YOU benefitted unfairly (so you say), but now another (not YOU) should suffer for it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 03:20:29 PM
"At least nine Catholic and Anglican churches across Canada have gone up in flames amid a backlash over the country's use of church-run residential schools to forcibly assimilate indigenous children from the late 19th century until the 1970s."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-church-fires-first-nation-residential-schools-graves?cmpid=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR2p4g9-Nhhy8lvH7sU23Iq4-PayhnN6sGGxO-VCJSLPPWuM3yHsekmwk-Y

https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/07/bc-civil-liberties-association-boss-calls-for-church-burnings/
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 06, 2021, 03:26:40 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory (http://patterico.com/2021/07/05/david-french-kmele-foster-and-thomas-chatterton-williams-misrepresent-a-key-aspect-of-the-laws-banning-critical-race-theory/)

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Likeness on July 06, 2021, 03:27:09 PM
Perhaps the New Jersey Transplant in Minnesota needs to join the 21st century.
I would second the motion of Pastor Bohler that some colleges are recruiting non-white males
due to some unwritten quota system.  As far as job promotions are concerned major companies
are demonstrating a willingness to become more diverse employers by promoting non-white males.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 03:33:32 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory (http://patterico.com/2021/07/05/david-french-kmele-foster-and-thomas-chatterton-williams-misrepresent-a-key-aspect-of-the-laws-banning-critical-race-theory/)

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 03:41:31 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory (http://patterico.com/2021/07/05/david-french-kmele-foster-and-thomas-chatterton-williams-misrepresent-a-key-aspect-of-the-laws-banning-critical-race-theory/)

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.

CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty? 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 06, 2021, 03:44:09 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?

Tom Pearson       
Thank you for this academic context.  But also, especially your parting shot, which clarifies why this is far from harmless, contrary to the people telling us this is no big deal.

A blogger I follow on Twitter, Patterico (another virulent bordering on deranged anti-Trumper), wrote this column yesterday in reaction to David French et al NY Times column about recent state laws attempting to ban CRT:  David French, Kmele Foster, and Thomas Chatterton Williams Misrepresent a Key Aspect of the Laws Banning Critical Race Theory (http://patterico.com/2021/07/05/david-french-kmele-foster-and-thomas-chatterton-williams-misrepresent-a-key-aspect-of-the-laws-banning-critical-race-theory/)

As a practical matter in his follow up tweets, he highlighted the distinction with how CRT educational initiatives impact white people...his thesis:  There is nothing wrong with the possibility that white people could feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress.  However, if the lesson taught, especially in K-12 schools but also in mandatory corporate D.E.I. events, is that white people must feel any distress, it has crossed the line.  Both ethically and with respect to anti-discrimination laws and more generally the 14th Amendment.

I think this racial message is what is driving more working class whites to Trump-like political messages in the wake of BLM rioting last summer, even as the college educated upper middle class flee that crassness.  Even though I'm fairly classified as the latter, I can't tell you first hand how offensive this race accusation rhetoric is to the older generation in my family.  People living in the northeast, an area with no great history of legal discrimination or racial unrest (being small town/rural), being told they somehow owe something to minorities elsewhere and should feel ashamed (and thereby politically pliant to make amends for their offenses).  Their lives were tough, they worked hard, and so bristle at the notion they owe any particular social debt to anyone else.  They do not perceive themselves as privileged whites.  This is toxic and dare I see evil.

Resistance to CRT is not just a Trump movement thing.  Trying to make it so, and the gaslighting of "when will you stop beating your wife?", only poisons the well further.  If reasonable people don't squelch this, then those outraged will turn to the unreasonable, again.


So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

You embarrass yourself with this non-sequitor, again.  I'm taking about civil affairs, and I reject your theocratic inclinations.  The 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection has nothing to do with God's Law here.  I specifically mentioned that such a thing violates the civil law.   That's not how any of that works.  Just because I used the word "accusation" does not mean you can reflexively play the word association game in response and suggest a context I did not mean.

Perhaps you should reflect on what you have just done and consider your guilt.  Because you have sinned against me by  misrepresenting my words.  I tell you this plainly for all the good it will (not) do.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 03:48:28 PM

There are theories that cross the line from theory to fact- evolution being one of them.  CRT is in the process of evolving from theory to fact.  Children are being taught to hate their race, hate their country. 

Not all theories are created equal. 


I think you have put your finger squarely on one dimension of the issue with CRT, Pr. Loesch.  The problem with CRT is not with the "critical" or with the "race."  There's no question but that critical examination and evaluation of race and rectification of America's historic formal, legal and economic structures affecting racial categories is long overdue.  The problem is with "theory."

In the natural sciences, "theory" is a term that refers to something like "a proposal for organizing and giving meaning to empirical data."  In short, "theory" emerges out of the empirical data; it follows from the data.

But that's not the way "theory" works in the social sciences and the liberal arts.  In those domains, "theory" is an ideological construct used to assemble and "interpret" a narrowly selected range of phenomena assumed to be relevant to some problem.  In short, the empirical data is gathered insofar as it fits the antecedent "theory"; the data follows from, and made legitimate by, the "theory."  In the end, the narrowly selected range of phenomena are critically assessed; but the antecedent "theory" -- never.  The "theory" is the basis for the critical assessment, so the "theory" cannot itself be critically assessed.

Critical Legal Theory, out of which Critical Race Theory developed, operates the same way:  first you articulate a "theory" that addresses  certain features of legal practice, then you line up those features in an interpretive profile that validates the "theory," and then you hold up the "theory" as a comprehensive account of jurisprudence.

To claim (as does the meme offered by Pr. Stoffregen earlier) that such "theories" are nothing more than "tools for problem solving and critical thinking" is equivalent to the claim that racial, ethnic or sexist jokes are "harmless."  I mean, they're just jokes, right?  I mean, it's just "theory," right?


If it is my theory that such jokes are harmless because they are jokes; and I'm challenged on that by someone who is hurt by such words, because they are living by a different theory; I might have to examine my theory. I could be wrong.


One of the issues with the COVID-19 is that they operated on a theory, which was later modified, and modified again and again as new and better information was learned about the virus.


Perhaps another term for this is paradigm. which has been defined: "What we think is the correct way of viewing things." (Jean Morris Trumbauer, Sharing the Ministry: A Practical Guide for Transforming Volunteers into Ministers, p. 34)


When we learn that our "correct way of viewing things" is no longer correct, then we need a paradigm shift. A change in what we consider the correct way of viewing things. Major shifts occurred during the pandemic as congregations had to learn new ways of viewing and doing church, e.g., zoom worship and meetings, new ways of distributing communion, etc.


As we learn more about historical events from the view of the victims: Blacks, Native Americans, Japanese, Chinese, etc. Our "correct way of viewing things" has been challenged and for many requires looking at things in new and different ways.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 06, 2021, 03:53:10 PM
So we had better stop using God's Word as Law because it must make people feel guilty.

So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.

CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?
This is a great point.  Attempting to treat white racial guilt and responsibility as "original sin", tainting all, is offensive to the civil law.  It's just variation of chattle slavery based on race.  One drop of African blood?  You're no longer a person and can be enslaved...even if you look "white".  This kind of racial gamesmanship has always been poison.  Both slavery and CRT do have one thing in common...they are both about obtaining and maintaining power over others.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 03:53:34 PM
You embarrass yourself with this non-sequitor, again.  I'm taking about civil affairs, and I reject your theocratic inclinations.  The 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection has nothing to do with God's Law here.  I specifically mentioned that such a thing violates the civil law.   That's not how any of that works.  Just because I used the word "accusation" does not mean you can reflexively play the word association game in response and suggest a context I did not mean.

Perhaps you should reflect on what you have just done and consider your guilt.  Because you have sinned against me by  misrepresenting my words.  I tell you this plainly for all the good it will (not) do.


God uses Law (and it makes no difference whether the laws are civil laws, divine laws, commands from my mother or wife) in two ways. To bring order to society by curbing bad behaviors and encouraging good behaviors; and to convict us of our sins.


I repent of my sin against you and point out that you did not interpret my response in the best possible light either.


This is not the first, nor will it be the last time I embarrass myself.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 03:57:33 PM
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 06, 2021, 04:07:58 PM
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
For the final time, being found guilty under God's law is nothing like how the civil law works.  Being white is not a crime.  Such racial discrimination is unconstitutional and illegal.  That's what is so offensive about CRT, because it attempts to teach just that.

Objection to CRT does not mean that the United States history of racial inequality should suddenly not be taught.  Contrary to the CRT advocates, who want to suggest it is not being taught without their bravery, it has been a mainstay of the American education curriculum since the Civil Rights movement happened.  Especially why the Civil Right Act of 1964 was especially historic and necessary, to deliver more fully on the words of the Declaration of Independence.  But they want something more, which is new, novel, dangerous, and divisive.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 04:10:40 PM
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So, I guess by your reasoning that all are generically guilty, I am guilty, by association, because of my "whiteness" of all apparent sins of racism.  God's law does not have to condemn me in this case, just the unfortunate burden of my whiteness and its connection with the past sins of those I never knew.  The implications of this are enormous.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on July 06, 2021, 04:34:40 PM
White folks talking to White folks, getting into divisive snits: Marxist CRT working according to plan… excellent.


Peter (Wampanoag and Neanderthal DNA White guy 1% Sephardic Jew) Garrison
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 06, 2021, 04:41:26 PM
DeHall1  ask the question....

Which of these resolutions SPECIFICALLY "do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation."?


RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;


In this resolve there is an assumption that the CRT supports the idea... Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality."   

The Mid South rejects any doctrine that teaches "Any individual is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry or nationality."   That sounds to me as if the LCMS Mid-South District rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Might the CRT be on to something that is Biblical and in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions.  Seems to me that the CTCR report Racism connected racism with our human ancestry that goes back to the Fall.  The problem, according to the CTCR report, is both the denial and self-defensiveness of how we humans are inclined to erect barriers between humans on the basis of visual distinctions.

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 04:49:25 PM
DeHall1  ask the question....

Which of these resolutions SPECIFICALLY "do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation."?


RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;


In this resolve there is an assumption that the CRT supports the idea... Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality."   

The Mid South rejects any doctrine that teaches "Any individual is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry or nationality."   That sounds to me as if the LCMS Mid-South District rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Might the CRT be on to something that is Biblical and in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions.  Seems to me that the CTCR report Racism connected racism with our human ancestry that goes back to the Fall.  The problem, according to the CTCR report, is both the denial and self-defensiveness of how we humans are inclined to erect barriers between humans on the basis of visual distinctions.

Marie Meyer

How does that statement deny original sin?  It denies that one is guilty of racism or oppression simply/solely on the basis of "race, ancestry or nationality".  It says nothing about original sin; it speaks to a specific and actual sin: racism/oppression.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 06, 2021, 04:52:19 PM
An additional parting thought on the proposition that CRT compelling all whites to feel complicit in non-specific racism...among the reasons that this runs afoul of U.S. civil law is that you have a constitutional right to be a racist bigot.  The government is not allowed to punish you for what you believe.  Only if you act upon them unlawfully, in an area over which the state has jurisdiction.  But to hear this latest generation of civil rights advocates talking gives me pause, demanding that we fight racism and that if you're not anti-racist then you are a racist, because we do not do re-education camps in the United States.  At least not yet.  So any such attempt at political indoctrination and testing, be it in the schools or the workplace, will be vigorously resisted as unconstitutional...so long as the 14th Amendment stands.  Yet some approach this issue as if it's the government's job to convert or punish bigots...no.

All this has no relation to God's law, which most certainly CAN convict you of sinful thoughts.  From my perspective, being a racist bigot makes you a sinner, for definitely not loving your neighbor as yourself.  It just doesn't belong to state's authority to punish you for that.  Of course the oppressed are always keen to become the oppressor.  That's something else God's Word teaches us.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 06, 2021, 04:59:23 PM
Pastor Bohler:
The point, Rev. Austin, is that if you think that YOU benefitted unfairly by being white, that is one thing.  But for you to claim that ALL whites have -- and currently do -- benefit, that is another. And it would be flat-out wrong. 

Me:
No, it would not be wrong. You don’t get it. Yes, all white people have in various different ways benefited from the privileges given the white people. Did you read the book “Caste”? If you did, did you not see yourself, and everybody like you in it?

Pastor Bohler:
Get over it?  Tell that to the young white man who was denied admission to the college of his choice simply because he was a white male.  Or the young white man who was passed over for promotion in favor of one less qualified, simply because he was a white male.
Me:
It is almost never that “simply” done. You make a caricature of the situation. That shows you do not understand what is really involved.

Pastor Bohler:
If you want to do penance for unfair advantages you personally received, go ahead.  But do not tell that young white male who has been denied equal treatment that it is fair -- HE did not benefit from "white privilege", YOU did.
Me:
See above. If he is white in today’s society. He has benefited from being white, often at the disadvantage of those who are not.

Pastor Bohler:
And now you want him to not only pay the piper for your unfair advantages, you want him to say "thank you, sir, may I have another?".  My goodness, man, do you not see the evil of that?  YOU benefitted unfairly (so you say), but now another (not YOU) should suffer for it.
Me:
See above. We all need to “pay” in order to make our society more just and equitable. Do you not see the mercy and care for neighbor in that? I have watched numerous situations and known of several others. Your caricature is wrong. It’s not that someone gets a job or a benefit simply because they are not white. It may mean that if people of relatively equal competence are seeking a job or in need of something, it may be time to consider whether one’s race, or ethnicity, or economic status might be a factor in decision making.
It applies to situation concerning gender also. A friend from years ago was denied a teaching job because she was a woman. The job went to a man, because, of course, “he has a family to support.“ As if she, at the time caring for elderly parents, did not.
I have no hope that you will understand any of this.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 05:01:21 PM
DeHall1  ask the question....

Which of these resolutions SPECIFICALLY "do NOT contribute to teachable moments or opening minds to knowing the truth about our nation."?


RESOLVED, That the LCMS Mid-South District reject any doctrine that teaches:   

● One’s race, ancestry, or nationality are inherently superior to the race, ancestry, or nationality of another.
● Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality;


In this resolve there is an assumption that the CRT supports the idea... Any individual is inherently racist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry, or nationality."   

The Mid South rejects any doctrine that teaches "Any individual is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, because of his or her race, ancestry or nationality."   That sounds to me as if the LCMS Mid-South District rejects the doctrine of original sin.

Might the CRT be on to something that is Biblical and in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions.  Seems to me that the CTCR report Racism connected racism with our human ancestry that goes back to the Fall.  The problem, according to the CTCR report, is both the denial and self-defensiveness of how we humans are inclined to erect barriers between humans on the basis of visual distinctions.

Marie Meyer

How does that statement deny original sin?  It denies that one is guilty of racism or oppression simply/solely on the basis of "race, ancestry or nationality".  It says nothing about original sin; it speaks to a specific and actual sin: racism/oppression.

There is another theological piece of this that needs to be addressed as well: sin by association.  It's one thing to acknowledge that we are all sinners because of the Fall.  Yes, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Got it. We are inclined to sin in thought, word and deed. But CRT appears to bring the 'sin' of racism and attach it to a group of people because of their "whiteness" simply because those from said group committed horrible racist acts in the past, which impacted our government, economy and civic structure, and now, far down the line, I am benefiting from that, even if unaware.  The fact that I supposedly benefit from that, I am, if I'm getting this straight, 'complicit' in the sin of my white forebearers. And now I must feel guilty over it and repent. 

Something isn't lining up theologically for me here. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 05:25:10 PM
Pastor Bohler:
The point, Rev. Austin, is that if you think that YOU benefitted unfairly by being white, that is one thing.  But for you to claim that ALL whites have -- and currently do -- benefit, that is another. And it would be flat-out wrong. 

Me:
No, it would not be wrong. You don’t get it. Yes, all white people have in various different ways benefited from the privileges given the white people. Did you read the book “Caste”? If you did, did you not see yourself, and everybody like you in it?

Pastor Bohler:
Get over it?  Tell that to the young white man who was denied admission to the college of his choice simply because he was a white male.  Or the young white man who was passed over for promotion in favor of one less qualified, simply because he was a white male.
Me:
It is almost never that “simply” done. You make a caricature of the situation. That shows you do not understand what is really involved.

Pastor Bohler:
If you want to do penance for unfair advantages you personally received, go ahead.  But do not tell that young white male who has been denied equal treatment that it is fair -- HE did not benefit from "white privilege", YOU did.
Me:
See above. If he is white in today’s society. He has benefited from being white, often at the disadvantage of those who are not.

Pastor Bohler:
And now you want him to not only pay the piper for your unfair advantages, you want him to say "thank you, sir, may I have another?".  My goodness, man, do you not see the evil of that?  YOU benefitted unfairly (so you say), but now another (not YOU) should suffer for it.
Me:
See above. We all need to “pay” in order to make our society more just and equitable. Do you not see the mercy and care for neighbor in that? I have watched numerous situations and known of several others. Your caricature is wrong. It’s not that someone gets a job or a benefit simply because they are not white. It may mean that if people of relatively equal competence are seeking a job or in need of something, it may be time to consider whether one’s race, or ethnicity, or economic status might be a factor in decision making.
It applies to situation concerning gender also. A friend from years ago was denied a teaching job because she was a woman. The job went to a man, because, of course, “he has a family to support.“ As if she, at the time caring for elderly parents, did not.
I have no hope that you will understand any of this.

Your female friend who lost the job to a man -- when was this? 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 06, 2021, 06:42:35 PM
First, I think we should be thankful for a dialog in which original sin is part of the discussion.   So thank you, Marie Meyer.   Ask Average Joe about that anymore.  It's a non-starter.  So what is the essence of original sin and how does it relate to racism?  Some say pride - being as God.  I think power and control.  The need to have the same Weltanschaung as God - I run this place.  Don't tell me which trees are good and bad.

Race as an aspect of that in these latter times become a way to keep people in their place, and to determine pecking order according to the power grid.  We get locked into our American perspective, to be sure, because of slavery and the way "we" ran over the indigenous people on our way to our Manifest Destiny.

The folks I am with on a daily basis, though, were in large part connected to the various European colonial enterprises, by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch and the English.  So some of the antagonism between those of Indo-Asian heritage and African heritage through the Caribbean come from the way the colonial British set the system up, with those from India who were placed as those who were in middle management and one/two steps above the indigenes and the African-based indentured.   To this day the power and control granted brings a differentiation between/among those groups.  All of it - all of it, is about power and control.  It is "racial" as well, because the lighter melatonin folks held sway (even the Spanish/Portuguese/Italian are included, although to us Teutons they are "swarthy").

At the end of the day, however, the original sin returns to its source, power and control as a god. 

Jesus is the Upside-Down Kingdom of God initiator, isn't He?  Servant - not the person AT the table, but the person WAITING on the table.  That guy - in those days no tipping required, by the way. 

So maybe we could open up a dialog on Servant Leadership as the alternative to Power and Control in the Realm of God.  Maybe someone might even tune in.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 06, 2021, 07:51:54 PM
But to hear this latest generation of civil rights advocates talking gives me pause, demanding that we fight racism and that if you're not anti-racist then you are a racist, because we do not do re-education camps in the United States.  At least not yet...

Actually, isn't the teaching of CRT in our public schools becoming virtually that? Except the students get to go home every night.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 07:55:08 PM
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So, I guess by your reasoning that all are generically guilty, I am guilty, by association, because of my "whiteness" of all apparent sins of racism.  God's law does not have to condemn me in this case, just the unfortunate burden of my whiteness and its connection with the past sins of those I never knew.  The implications of this are enormous.


You are generically guilty because you are human. You will sin against other people because you are human. It's part of our nature. Related to CRT, our sinfulness means that we will nature view life from our own (selfish) perspective. Hearing about the civil rights movement from a Black man or a Black woman who were involved, is quite different from hearing it from a white professor who studied it in books. Or, in another context, having a Roman Catholic tell us about their faith and their church is different than having a Lutheran professor tell us what Roman Catholics believe and do. Conversely, a Roman Catholic friend asked me about Lutheranism because he didn't quite buy what the priest had told him Lutherans believed.


When a white lawyer says, "These are neutral laws," and a Black man says, "They are not." I think critical race theory says that we need to listen to the Black man and learn why the laws may not be as neutral as we think; and how the application of the laws certainly haven't been neutral.


Wiki article on Critical Race Theory lists common themes.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Terry W Culler on July 06, 2021, 08:02:34 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 08:02:47 PM
So you are putting God's Word and CRT on the same level?

God's law, as a mirror, shows me my sins, sins noted by specific divine prohibitions.


 God uses any commands from anyway to be a mirror. It does not have to be only "God's law."

Quote
CRT points out a number of issues believed to be associated with racial discrimination, especially those connected with discrimination against blacks.  But it also wrongly demands guilt from those not guilty.  It condemns people for benefiting from supposed advantages based on their race, not their personal actions.  Guilt by association.  How is that equivalent to the divine Law making me feel guilty?


Who is not guilty? All have sinned. That's what God's law says. Also, "If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So, I guess by your reasoning that all are generically guilty, I am guilty, by association, because of my "whiteness" of all apparent sins of racism.  God's law does not have to condemn me in this case, just the unfortunate burden of my whiteness and its connection with the past sins of those I never knew.  The implications of this are enormous.


You are generically guilty because you are human. You will sin against other people because you are human. It's part of our nature. Related to CRT, our sinfulness means that we will nature view life from our own (selfish) perspective. Hearing about the civil rights movement from a Black man or a Black woman who were involved, is quite different from hearing it from a white professor who studied it in books. Or, in another context, having a Roman Catholic tell us about their faith and their church is different than having a Lutheran professor tell us what Roman Catholics believe and do. Conversely, a Roman Catholic friend asked me about Lutheranism because he didn't quite buy what the priest had told him Lutherans believed.


When a white lawyer says, "These are neutral laws," and a Black man says, "They are not." I think critical race theory says that we need to listen to the Black man and learn why the laws may not be as neutral as we think; and how the application of the laws certainly haven't been neutral.


Wiki article on Critical Race Theory lists common themes.

Then to be fair, if this is simply because we are "human" and doesn't relate to my "whiteness," then CRT should be broad enough to indict all races and hold all races guilty instead of just one category that isn't even a 'race,' per se.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 08:05:46 PM
So maybe we could open up a dialog on Servant Leadership as the alternative to Power and Control in the Realm of God.  Maybe someone might even tune in.

Since a major theme of the thread involves CRT, how do you see "Servant Leadership" in the context of our current time and culture as related to CRT?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 08:12:18 PM
There is another theological piece of this that needs to be addressed as well: sin by association.  It's one thing to acknowledge that we are all sinners because of the Fall.  Yes, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Got it. We are inclined to sin in thought, word and deed. But CRT appears to bring the 'sin' of racism and attach it to a group of people because of their "whiteness" simply because those from said group committed horrible racist acts in the past, which impacted our government, economy and civic structure, and now, far down the line, I am benefiting from that, even if unaware.  The fact that I supposedly benefit from that, I am, if I'm getting this straight, 'complicit' in the sin of my white forebearers. And now I must feel guilty over it and repent. 

Something isn't lining up theologically for me here.


You might consider Exodus 20:5c-6 where God says:


I punish children for their parents’ sins even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me. But I am loyal and gracious to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.


It sounds like there is guilt by association - or at least blood lines.



Consider also how often the prophets pronounced oracles against nations - not individuals. (Ezekiel is a bit of an exception.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 08:19:14 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 08:31:43 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 06, 2021, 08:34:51 PM
There is another theological piece of this that needs to be addressed as well: sin by association.  It's one thing to acknowledge that we are all sinners because of the Fall.  Yes, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Got it. We are inclined to sin in thought, word and deed. But CRT appears to bring the 'sin' of racism and attach it to a group of people because of their "whiteness" simply because those from said group committed horrible racist acts in the past, which impacted our government, economy and civic structure, and now, far down the line, I am benefiting from that, even if unaware.  The fact that I supposedly benefit from that, I am, if I'm getting this straight, 'complicit' in the sin of my white forebearers. And now I must feel guilty over it and repent. 

Something isn't lining up theologically for me here.


You might consider Exodus 20:5c-6 where God says:


I punish children for their parents’ sins even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me. But I am loyal and gracious to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.


It sounds like there is guilt by association - or at least blood lines.



Consider also how often the prophets pronounced oracles against nations - not individuals. (Ezekiel is a bit of an exception.)

So the interpretation of Exodus 20:5c-6 is about guilt by association?  Would you like to draw out the implications of that exegesis?  The resulting list would be endless.  Do you anticipate being directly punished for your parent's sins? Or do you think you have?  Or let's just consider your ethnic heritage.  What in your family tree causes you great guilt?  Should you be punished for their sins? Or do you believe that you are?

Or might the passage mean that sin often corrupts whole families and is often handed down through learned behavior from their parents and the generations prior? Notice that the text mentions that these "generations" were those who "hated" God.  They were idolaters, not faithful believers. When Luther interpreted this section at the end of his explanation of the commandments, he said that "God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments."  He did not say that we are all guilty of other's sins by mere association.   
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 08:45:12 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.


Mrs. Meyers certainly should be a spokeswoman about the way the LCMS treats women. Her story is one that no male could share.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 06, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
So the interpretation of Exodus 20:5c-6 is about guilt by association?  Would you like to draw out the implications of that exegesis?  The resulting list would be endless.  Do you anticipate being directly punished for your parent's sins? Or do you think you have?  Or let's just consider your ethnic heritage.  What in your family tree causes you great guilt?  Should you be punished for their sins? Or do you believe that you are?

Or might the passage mean that sin often corrupts whole families and is often handed down through learned behavior from their parents and the generations prior? Notice that the text mentions that these "generations" were those who "hated" God.  They were idolaters, not faithful believers. When Luther interpreted this section at the end of his explanation of the commandments, he said that "God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments."  He did not say that we are all guilty of other's sins by mere association.


I think that it is a statement of reality (but not all of reality). We know that there are inherited issues, like alcoholism, mental illnesses, poor eyesight, perhaps diabetes. We know that there are behavior issues that carry on from generation to generation. As the saying goes, "The apple does fall far from the tree."


We characterize people from "the wrong side of town." In the biblical world, there was essentially no individual identity. One was identified by the group(s) they were in: "from Nazareth," "Samaritan," "Gentile," "Pharisee." Etc. One was born into a class and generally could not leave it.


One of the great significance of the "born from above" image is that one is now part a new family, which gives a new identity, a new status.


At the same time, it's not the whole of reality, Ezekiel is clear that children are not punished for parents sins, nor are they blessed for their parents' righteousness. I believe that's a novel idea for the culture of that time.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 06, 2021, 09:20:14 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Your female friend who lost the job to a man -- when was this?
Me:
2001, maybe a year or two later.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 06, 2021, 09:23:49 PM
Mrs. Meyers certainly should be a spokeswoman about the way the LCMS treats women. Her story is one that no male could share.

Strike three in your illogical posts today, Brian. 😒
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 06, 2021, 09:53:45 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.


Mrs. Meyers certainly should be a spokeswoman about the way the LCMS treats women. Her story is one that no male could share.

No, she can only speak about women because she is not a man (oh, and by the way, it is Mrs. Meyer not Mrs. Meyers).  So, she cannot speak of anything said or done by LCMS men -- she does not share their experience.  How can she know what they felt or thought or believed since she is not one of them?  Only LCMS men can speak about LCMS men.  That, after all, is the logical conclusion of what you had written in your previous post.  And, following that same weird logic of yours, non-white people cannot speak or write about anything whites have said or done since they do not share those experiences of white people.  Only white people can be allowed to do that. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 06, 2021, 10:13:21 PM
So maybe we could open up a dialog on Servant Leadership as the alternative to Power and Control in the Realm of God.  Maybe someone might even tune in.

Since a major theme of the thread involves CRT, how do you see "Servant Leadership" in the context of our current time and culture as related to CRT?

Great question.  I'll give it a go tomorrow as I have time.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 06, 2021, 10:43:07 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything
Citing Wikipedia could be a sign of laziness. They should go to the sources Wikipedia cites. As a source of knowledge on most topics, though, it's about as good as other general reference works.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 02:48:58 AM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.


Mrs. Meyers certainly should be a spokeswoman about the way the LCMS treats women. Her story is one that no male could share.

No, she can only speak about women because she is not a man (oh, and by the way, it is Mrs. Meyer not Mrs. Meyers).  So, she cannot speak of anything said or done by LCMS men -- she does not share their experience.  How can she know what they felt or thought or believed since she is not one of them?  Only LCMS men can speak about LCMS men.  That, after all, is the logical conclusion of what you had written in your previous post.  And, following that same weird logic of yours, non-white people cannot speak or write about anything whites have said or done since they do not share those experiences of white people.  Only white people can be allowed to do that.


She can speak about herself as a woman. A man cannot speak about her as a woman, but some try. She can speak about ways she (and other women) experience the LCMS. Men have tried to tell her that what she experienced was wrong.


When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)


For that matter, nearly every time someone else attempts to tell me what I'm thinking, they are wrong.


Men speak about themselves, their own experiences, their feelings, their interactions with others, the way they experience the world; and it will be different than women. It will be different if one is a gay man vs. a straight man. Whites experience the world differently than Blacks. Black females experience it differently than Hispanic females. CRT might also throw sexual orientation as well as country of origin into the mix of Intersectional. I know that Black men from Africa experienced Dubuque, IA when I was there, differently than Black Americans who lived there.



Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 02:50:17 AM
Mrs. Meyers certainly should be a spokeswoman about the way the LCMS treats women. Her story is one that no male could share.

Strike three in your illogical posts today, Brian. 😒


Good thing we're not playing baseball.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 07:25:17 AM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"

Not that I endorse the concept that "mansplaining" is a thing.  Just that even if one accepts that men as some sort of reflexive habit talk down to women, this doesn't seem to be an example of it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Richard Johnson on July 07, 2021, 09:10:01 AM
For a contrast, here's a statement from the African Methodist Episcopal Church bishops (from a Religion News Service release):

“We acknowledge the current controversy around Critical Race Theory and acknowledge that healing can only begin when the traumas of the past are recognized,” the bishops said.

“In African Methodism, our strategy will be informed by the notion that racism is the root evil and that ending racism is one of our highest priorities. We need partners in the fight against race inspired ills that continue to cry out against inequities beyond the borders of the USA. We must signal to public officials that the actions taken are more important than the proclamations made.”
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 07, 2021, 10:05:55 AM
As I understand it, one of the contentions of Critical Race Theory is that laws, policies, societal structures, and the like can have negative racial impacts even if they do not seem to have that as their purpose, especially as they interact and intersect with each other. It is important that we ferret out these negative impacts and eliminate them. Thus while something in society may seem to have nothing to do with race, if a negative racial effect is found, it must be changed.


The same kind of intersectionality can and does happen with regard to religion. Laws and policies that ostensibly have nothing to do with religion can burden particular religious people and hinder their free exercise of their religion. The difference in our current societal climate is that when the negative impact is racial it must be changed. If the negative impact is religious, too bad. If your religion is inconvenienced, change your religion to something more acceptable.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 07, 2021, 10:07:02 AM
For a contrast, here's a statement from the African Methodist Episcopal Church bishops (from a Religion News Service release):

“We acknowledge the current controversy around Critical Race Theory and acknowledge that healing can only begin when the traumas of the past are recognized,” the bishops said.

“In African Methodism, our strategy will be informed by the notion that racism is the root evil and that ending racism is one of our highest priorities. We need partners in the fight against race inspired ills that continue to cry out against inequities beyond the borders of the USA. We must signal to public officials that the actions taken are more important than the proclamations made.”

What is a "root evil"? Is there more than one?   Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil? 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: aletheist on July 07, 2021, 10:31:54 AM
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 07, 2021, 11:01:12 AM
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).

Thanks!  I think it's the KJV that states "For the love of money is the root of all evil.."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: aletheist on July 07, 2021, 11:21:40 AM
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).
Thanks!  I think it's the KJV that states "For the love of money is the root of all evil.."
Correct, but most of the modern translations are similar to the ESV, including the NKJV.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Mark Brown on July 07, 2021, 12:15:19 PM
First, I think we should be thankful for a dialog in which original sin is part of the discussion.   So thank you, Marie Meyer.   Ask Average Joe about that anymore.  It's a non-starter.  So what is the essence of original sin and how does it relate to racism?  Some say pride - being as God.  I think power and control.  The need to have the same Weltanschaung as God - I run this place.  Don't tell me which trees are good and bad.

Race as an aspect of that in these latter times become a way to keep people in their place, and to determine pecking order according to the power grid.  We get locked into our American perspective, to be sure, because of slavery and the way "we" ran over the indigenous people on our way to our Manifest Destiny.

The folks I am with on a daily basis, though, were in large part connected to the various European colonial enterprises, by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch and the English.  So some of the antagonism between those of Indo-Asian heritage and African heritage through the Caribbean come from the way the colonial British set the system up, with those from India who were placed as those who were in middle management and one/two steps above the indigenes and the African-based indentured.   To this day the power and control granted brings a differentiation between/among those groups.  All of it - all of it, is about power and control.  It is "racial" as well, because the lighter melatonin folks held sway (even the Spanish/Portuguese/Italian are included, although to us Teutons they are "swarthy").

At the end of the day, however, the original sin returns to its source, power and control as a god. 

Jesus is the Upside-Down Kingdom of God initiator, isn't He?  Servant - not the person AT the table, but the person WAITING on the table.  That guy - in those days no tipping required, by the way. 

So maybe we could open up a dialog on Servant Leadership as the alternative to Power and Control in the Realm of God.  Maybe someone might even tune in.

Dave Benke

From Ibram X Kendi in 2019 at the "National Anti-Racist Book Festival" hosted by American University.

"You know America was stamped from the beginning to build and maintain the power of of white folk. We've never had a democracy in order to have freedom, you have to have power or you have to have power in order to be free. People of color have never had power. Women have never had power. Antiracists must organize and accumulate power. The power to make and break policy."

So yeah, it's about power.  And this is about the dumbest possible way to try and divide up the polis.  That would be Glenn Loury and John McWhorter that would agree there.  The leadership in the country is so terrible it is hard to describe.  That this stuff could become the default religion of the American upper class with plenty of useful idiots in all the institutions pushing it is just hard to fathom.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Coach-Rev on July 07, 2021, 12:49:08 PM
Seems we are reduced to two sides shouting at one another again here.  Some things never change...

All the discussions of "White Fragility" etc here the past year got me thinking of reading a contrarian POV.  I settled on Voddie Baucham's book, "Fault Lines."  I recommend it wholeheartedly.

https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 07, 2021, 01:00:37 PM
I'm up at Camp Luther this week with spotty internet and even spottier desire to be online, but I have been checking in from time to time. Last week I put together a draft of a policy for our school concerning racial issues. We haven't adopted it yet, but I'd appreciate any feedback that might help hone it into a better statement. We'll probably be voting on it or something like it in August.

St. Paul’s Lutheran Church and School teaches in accord with God’s Word that God made mankind in His image and that all human beings share the same origin, suffer from the same fall into sin, and are offered full redemption in Jesus Christ. Strictly speaking, there is only one human race. Accordingly, we serve students and families of all ethnicities and colors without distinction. We seek to provide a learning environment in which skin color is irrelevant and the children of any ethnicity do not talk about their black friends or their white friends but simply about their friends.

We also acknowledge that despite Christianity’s clear teaching that all people have the same inherent value and ultimate origin, differences in skin color have often led to injustice, bitter hatreds, prejudice, and divisions in the world and even among Christians. These sins and afflictions can be difficult to overcome, and God’s Word calls to repentance anyone who manifests or perpetuates them. Although we may be required for some government purposes to classify our students according to their ethnicity, race, or skin color, such classifications work against our Christian and educational mission and purpose, so we strive not to import them into the classrooms or into the hearts and minds of our students.

We reject any religious doctrine, sociological theory, or educational practice that
   --perpetuates negative stereotypes based on race/color;
   --tolerates abusive language based on race/color;
   --accuses people of being racist based on their race/color;
   --categorizes or segregates students according to race/color;
   --asks students to classify themselves or others according to race/color;
   --applies differing academic expectations or standards of behavior based on race/color;
        --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color;
        --treats individuals as representatives of their race/color.

We will address with God’s Word and sound management principles any faculty, staff, student, or parent who violates these teachings and policies. Persistent violations may lead to removal from the St. Paul’s Lutheran Church and School community.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 07, 2021, 01:20:23 PM
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM
I'm up at Camp Luther this week with spotty internet and even spottier desire to be online, but I have been checking in from time to time. Last week I put together a draft of a policy for our school concerning racial issues. We haven't adopted it yet, but I'd appreciate any feedback that might help hone it into a better statement. We'll probably be voting on it or something like it in August.

St. Paul’s Lutheran Church and School teaches in accord with God’s Word that God made mankind in His image and that all human beings share the same origin, suffer from the same fall into sin, and are offered full redemption in Jesus Christ. Strictly speaking, there is only one human race. Accordingly, we serve students and families of all ethnicities and colors without distinction. We seek to provide a learning environment in which skin color is irrelevant and the children of any ethnicity do not talk about their black friends or their white friends but simply about their friends.

We also acknowledge that despite Christianity’s clear teaching that all people have the same inherent value and ultimate origin, differences in skin color have often led to injustice, bitter hatreds, prejudice, and divisions in the world and even among Christians. These sins and afflictions can be difficult to overcome, and God’s Word calls to repentance anyone who manifests or perpetuates them. Although we may be required for some government purposes to classify our students according to their ethnicity, race, or skin color, such classifications work against our Christian and educational mission and purpose, so we strive not to import them into the classrooms or into the hearts and minds of our students.

We reject any religious doctrine, sociological theory, or educational practice that
   --perpetuates negative stereotypes based on race/color;
   --tolerates abusive language based on race/color;
   --accuses people of being racist based on their race/color;
   --categorizes or segregates students according to race/color;
   --asks students to classify themselves or others according to race/color;
   --applies differing academic expectations or standards of behavior based on race/color;
        --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color;
        --treats individuals as representatives of their race/color.

We will address with God’s Word and sound management principles any faculty, staff, student, or parent who violates these teachings and policies. Persistent violations may lead to removal from the St. Paul’s Lutheran Church and School community.

I like this statement.

One change I would suggest is in the bolded words "led to." It sounds as if the color differences themselves cause the wickedness. More accurate would be "been the excuse for".

The phrase "  --expects or assumes solidarity or group loyalty among people of the same race/color" is only half of that story, which also includes expecting or assuming antagonism or rivalry between people of different races or colors.

God bless you in your work.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Mark Brown on July 07, 2021, 01:42:20 PM
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   

The deep problem is how do you prevent those whose monomaniacal focus is on power from taking over.  As evidenced by the state of many of the important institutions on our Republic, we've failed.  The vast majority of everybody would rather not live such a stunted life, but the zealots won't allow that. And so far the sane left (if you believe in such a thing) is completely unwilling to stand up. Rod Dreher said recently thinking of Hungary and Orban "we might need some soft authoritarianism to save us from soft totalitarianism."  Because that is what this stuff is, totalitarian.  It reduces all of life to who/whom.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 07, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
Seems we are reduced to two sides shouting at one another again here.  Some things never change...

All the discussions of "White Fragility" etc here the past year got me thinking of reading a contrarian POV.  I settled on Voddie Baucham's book, "Fault Lines."  I recommend it wholeheartedly.

https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/

This is what happens when you get forced into a binary choice, us versus them, when it becomes all about power.

For myself, I've tried to make clear that I am all for discussing the failings of America, from its founding to the present day.  What I cannot accept, and I believe is unconstitutional racial discrimination, is anything government sanctioned or tolerated by law which treats people differently according to their race.  That includes requiring all whites to accept blame and culpability for things they, as individuals, have nothing to do with.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 07, 2021, 03:20:46 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 03:39:02 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 04:23:07 PM
Didn't St. Paul say that the love of money was the root of all evil?
No. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (1 Timothy 6:10, ESV, bold added).
Thanks!  I think it's the KJV that states "For the love of money is the root of all evil.."
Correct, but most of the modern translations are similar to the ESV, including the NKJV.


However, the CEB has: "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."


Of course I'll bring in the Greek.


ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ φιλαργυρία,
root for of-all of-the evils is the love-of-money


While ῥίζα (=root) does not have a definite article = "a root". The fact that it is modified by a genitive, "of all the evils," a translator can supply "the" to root.


This is usually done with υἱὸς θεοῦ = "(a) son of (a) God" with no articles; or in some cases υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ = "(a) son of the God", but it is usually translated, "the Son of God" or occasionally, "God's Son" (Mt 4:3, 67; 14:33; 27:40, 43, 54; Mk 1:1; 15:39; Luke 4:3, 9; John 10:36; 19:7). The modifier "of God" can make it a definition son, i.e., "the son." So, similarly, the modifier: of all the evils" could make it a definite root: "the root."


Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 04:28:53 PM
As I've been following the discussion, one thing that has struck me is how willing Christians seem to be to accept the materialist premise that everything is exclusively about power. It isn't. Power is one facet and factor in any sociological movement, but by no means the sole or even always the most important factor. Only true Marxist/materialists reduce everything to what can be gleaned about it through the lens of power.

Even British/European colonialism wasn't all about power. Part of it was genuinely sensing that the colonizing power brought good news, a better way, and liberation and enlightenment. They might not always been correct about the superiority of their "better way" (though they certainly often were) but the enterprise was not explicable strictly in terms of power dynamics except in the stunted explication of materialism, which, as Chesterton said, has all the marks of the insane explanation. The insane (or the materialist) explanation does explain everything. It just does so in a less expansive way than the sane explanation. It gives one the impression of simultaneously including everything while leaving everything out.

The 1619 Project and books like Caste have this flavor to them. They view the world through the lens of the monomaniac. Not everything is about race and power, certainly not the thrust of American history.   


I think that the attitude that we have something good to give to them has already set us up as the superior people. Consider a contrasting view: God is already present with those people and we go to discover what God is teaching us through them. (Of course much of the colonialism was about taking from the people - their precious metals and gems; not what they might teach us about God.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 04:31:21 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 07, 2021, 05:23:16 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you wrote: "Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command."  I think you have just answered your own question.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 05:24:42 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 07, 2021, 05:41:30 PM
There is a reason why reputable academics do not allow their students to quote Wiki-anything


A good Wiki article contains footnotes where researchers can look up the source material and quote from them.


I think that CRT would ask if any student should be able to quote a white author talking about the Black experience. Or, as a white man tried to do here, to teach us about Native American spirituality.


If Wiki is an unreliable source, than so are folks who talk about races and genders that are not their own. That, I believe, is what is being critiqued. Let those who actually live the experiences tell their stories rather than "experts" who theorize about them.

So, you are saying that any non-white person ought not talk about white privilege since they haven't lived that alleged experience?  And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool.  That settles that.

For some reason Steven W Bohler finds it necessary to twist this thread with the following, "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or what ever more? Cool. That settles that."

Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   

I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command.

I am persuaded that it is to the spiritual detriment of men when they, albeit unwittingly, place the human male between God and God's creation, the human woman.    The ultimate issue is letting God be God in the life of woman.

I am grateful to the LCMS men, beginning with my late father Herman Otten Sr., my parochial school teachers including Dr. Robert Schnabel,  my pastors including the Rev Oswald Hoffman and The Rev Ted Whitrock, the vicars who served my home church including John Damm, John Tietjen, Walter Bouman, Milton Rudnick, Art Simon, Hans Spalteholz and Dale Hansen,  my college professors including Prof Robert C Schultz, Robert Bertram, Richard Koenig, my father-in-law the Rev Adolf Meyer  AND my beloved  husband of 59 years, Bill Meyer. (Please note how many of these men have a history with the ALPB.;

Was I oppressed?  Hardly.  These men taught me the importance of letting God be God in my life....no man was to claim a place between  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and me.  Most certainly, they were not to misuse Scripture to prove it was God's idea that a  man or men take God's rightful place in  my life.  Doing so is the result of original sin; the mind and heart being curved inward on self. 

Marie Otten Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you wrote: "Rather than start another thread, I would simply ask that Mr. Bohler surface any post, one will do, where I have commented on how oppressive LCMS men are to women.   I have stated, and continue to maintain, that some LCMS men have misused God's Word to teach that God's order for the relationship of man and woman in the Church is a structured chain of being and/-or a structured chain of command."  I think you have just answered your own question.

Mr. Bohler, the above is a cop-out.  I think you have taken a coward's way out of a situation you created.

There is yet to be any post on this Forum that suggests I am an oppressed women.  A rather humorous comment was made by an LCMS District President when we were both serving on the LCMS Convention Nominations Committee.   His comment, "Marie, you are a very feminine women.  You also have the ability to stand firm like a MACK truck."

I took the reference to a MACK truck as a complement.   

Marie Otten Meyer

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 07, 2021, 05:53:04 PM
Ha - some of you may never have actually met Marie.  "Poor me" is not her mode of existence on our planet.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 07, 2021, 06:05:32 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

I did not say that you were oppressed. This is what I wrote (and, by the way, it was not serious): "And Mrs. Meyer cannot talk about LCMS men and how they are oppressive to women or patriarchal or whatever anymore?  Cool."  It was a joke, to illustrate the foolishness of saying that only members of a certain group can talk about that particular group.  I do not, and never did, think you were oppressed -- by the LCMS or anyone else.  Despite your constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 07, 2021, 06:12:12 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 07, 2021, 06:30:18 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.

That's nice.  I hear complaints.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 06:34:00 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 06:37:18 PM
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 06:39:26 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 06:40:27 PM
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.

No. 

You use language like the Mad Hatter.  This is 90% of the reason people get exasperated trying to talk to you.  You use words, but you don't mean them the way the words are typically used.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 07, 2021, 06:46:07 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Despite your (Deaconess Meyer’s) constant complaints about the LCMS and what it teaches in books, classrooms, etc.

I comment:
I do not hear “complaints.“
“Complaints” is a negative term in this setting and usage.
I hear questions. I hear attempts to correct what the writer believes to be wrong. I hear questions. I hear a search for real meaning in the subject at hand. All positive things.

That's nice.  I hear complaints.

Yup. "Grieved" is such a positive term.  🙄

On a truly positive note, it sure was a nice respite those  two days in the last week or so!
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 06:51:00 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.


I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.


I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 07, 2021, 06:53:01 PM
As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own. (See photo) Different perspectives are created by race, gender, sexual orientation, national origins and cultures.

No. 

You use language like the Mad Hatter.  This is 90% of the reason people get exasperated trying to talk to you.  You use words, but you don't mean them the way the words are typically used.


I beg to differ. When I use words as the dictionary defines them, I am using the words the way they are typically used. Its those who don't get it who are out of step with proper usage.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 07, 2021, 07:00:33 PM
When I've shared what my wife experienced at an LCMS congregation, men have said that she was wrong about her experience. Mansplaining is a new term to describe that. (I've been charged with that a time or two - always by women.)

That's weird.  As I recall, your wife's experience had nothing at all to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her joining an ELCA parish.  Why is that something unique to women that would bring on a charge of "mansplaining?"


Ah, but when some LCMS clergy told her, "You shouldn't feel that way." or "She should have known the LCMS position." They were mansplaining. Her deep feelings of hurt were inconsequential.

No, they weren't.  They'd have said the exact same to a man.


It's still mansplaining. A man thinking that he knows better doesn't always have to be with women.

Oh, I see.  You don't know what mansplaining is, you just wanted to use the word.

Got it.


Well, consulting my New Oxford American Dictionary, I think I used it quite properly.
man·splain| ˈmanˌsplān | verb [with object]
informal (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing:

So you think it's patronizing or condescending to suggest a former LCMS member ought to know the LCMS policy on communion?

I'd suggest it's patronizing, condescending and insulting to suggest she shouldn't know.


I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.


I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.

As the recipient, I conclude that Brian's post treats his wife in a condescending manner.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 07, 2021, 07:28:08 PM
I'm certainly my wife would say Yes; and beyond patronizing, condescending, and insulting, it was also hurtful.

So mansplaining is in the eye of the beholder?  Interesting.  See response below.

Quote
I believe that one of the issues of CRT is that the receiver of such messages gets to determine if they are helpful or hurtful. As I posted above, from another perspectives, there can be quite a different judgment about the words.

Yeah.  Except your woke buddies don't work that way.  See, there's a spa in California that is required by California law to admit transgender women into the women-only areas of the spa.  There was an op-ed about it in the LA Times about it.  Here's the link:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-07-06/editorial-transgender-spa-customers-have-the-same-rights-as-everyone-else

From the op-ed:

"There is no doubt that Wi Spa did the right thing in defending the right of a transgender customer to be nude in the women’s area, even though the sight of male-appearing genitalia discomfited at least one female customer, who complained at the front desk. As a public-serving business, Wi Spa had to follow California law forbidding discrimination against transgender people. What’s extraordinary isn’t that the spa’s employees followed the law but that this led to violence outside as opponents and supporters of the law clashed over the weekend."

First, let's pass to laugh at the phrase "male-appearing genitalia." 

Okay, (whew).  The "no doubt" part is also comical, because it seems to me the people complaining doubt whether Wi Spa did the right thing. Anyway, let's move on.

"At the same time, that doesn’t make everyone who feels uncomfortable in such scenarios a bigot. There are women who have been through personal experiences such as sexual assault who might find such a situation intimidating. It could go against the convictions and traditions of observant Muslims and Jews, who have a conservative or orthodox interpretation of gender norms and might themselves feel marginalized for their traditionalist beliefs. Right now, entrepreneurs may not create businesses solely for those who don’t want to be exposed to transgenderism; those businesses, too, would have to follow anti-discrimination laws."

Well, that's nice.  The women who don't like being subjected to penises in what is supposed to be a gender-exclusive area aren't bigots.  At least not all of them.  Some of them probably are though, because the author leaves it open with that whole "that doesn't make everyone ... a bigot" thing.  But anyway, let's accept the author's charity.  Here's where the rubber meets the road.

"As complicated as the opposing beliefs might be, it is clear where the rights in this matter land. Everyone — transgender customers, members of every faith and women who are upset by the sight of penises — has the right to use the spa and other public accommodations. It just happens that in this case, the public accommodation also includes nudity.

But no one has an absolute right to feel comfortable all the time. People have a right to use the spa, but that doesn’t include with it a guarantee that they all will feel at ease with everything they see. They might prefer a spa where a certain amount of body covering is required."

So, here, a higher level of oppressed person is involved.  And let's be clear, I assume your wife is a white woman, and therefore barely better than you, a white man, and she's a Christian to boot, so she is in fact an oppressor, not an oppressed person.  So when another person (like a white transgender male who wants to fling his bits and pieces in your wife's direction in the bathroom or locker room) gets to play the "I'm more oppressed than you" trump card, then your wife will simply have to look at the swinging "male-appearing genitalia" and get over it.  Is she chaste?  Is she modest?  Would she rather not see that?  The author of this article doesn't care.  Neither do most of your leftist fellow travelers.  What you fail to realize is you are climbing in bed with a praying mantis.  And she will eat you.  You think you're friends -- she just acted very friendly in courting your affection after all. She doesn't love you though.  Because your wife is married to you, a white Christian man, and she is a white Christian woman, and therefore barely deserving of the label "oppressed" except, perhaps, by you and people at the LCMS church who wouldn't let her commune that day.  But certainly not by them, and mostly, she's just another oppressor.  And by the time you figure that out, it will be your neck on the chopping block, and hers.  As much as you and I butt heads here, I guarantee you I like you a lot more than they do.  I will extend you courtesy, grace, charity and forgiveness.  You think they will. But you're wrong.

The better way, in fact, the Christian way, is to say "when offense is given, apology is owed, but when no offense was intended, charity and grace are owed, and apology is also owed for false witness if one was accused of intending the offense and did not."  That is, charity, grace, Christian forgiveness.  What you describe -- the receiver of the message gets to decide if it's helpful or hurtful -- simply isn't the way things actually are.  You may wish it were that way, but it isn't.  And if you're going to defend CRT and use terms like "mansplaining" that were coined by the woke left, you should take the time to understand the implications of your alliances.

The people whose language you are co-opting and whose philosophies you are espousing hate you.  Perhaps you the most, because they have to pretend to like you and value you as an ally, when the reality is they think you are a useful idiot.  And they will eat you before this is all said and done.  Either that or you will surrender everything, even your wife's modesty and chastity, and your own faith, to their demands.

Sorry if that's too much mansplaining.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 07, 2021, 08:36:43 PM
If there is no right to feel comfortable (and there isn’t) then the male appearing person should just use the male section of the spa and solve the whole problem. By going into the women’s room, the trans person is saying, “Because I have a right not to be made to feel uncomfortable, I will make you uncomfortable because you do not have the right not to be made to feel uncomfortable. My discomfort being in a room naked with people who appear to be male is absolute. Your discomfort being in a room naked with people who appear to be male is just some culturally conditioned thing you’ll have to get over.”
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: pearson on July 07, 2021, 10:22:45 PM

As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own.


Really?  "In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?

Tom Pearson
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 02:04:13 AM

As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own.


Really?  "In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 08, 2021, 04:34:51 AM
The issue is not whether white are automatically racist.
The issue is how we look at our history, our laws, our society, the ways we live with each other.
If we do not see how race has dominated, shaped and - usually for ill towards many - created our life today, we do not have a clear, honest and helpful understanding of who we are, where we were, what we have done how we got where we are today and where we should go.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 08:31:18 AM
If there is no right to feel comfortable (and there isn’t) then the male appearing person should just use the male section of the spa and solve the whole problem. By going into the women’s room, the trans person is saying, “Because I have a right not to be made to feel uncomfortable, I will make you uncomfortable because you do not have the right not to be made to feel uncomfortable. My discomfort being in a room naked with people who appear to be male is absolute. Your discomfort being in a room naked with people who appear to be male is just some culturally conditioned thing you’ll have to get over.”

Precisely.  It's all a lie.  They know they're lying.  We know they're lying.  But we're supposed to pretend this is something to be taken seriously.

What they mean is YOU have no right to feel comfortable, and we intend to ensure that you are as uncomfortable as possible, and we will do this by claiming that WE must be made to feel comfortable at all times.

Think about it -- the very people claiming YOU (and Pr. Stoffregen's dear bride) have no right to feel comfortable are the same people who say stupid things like "silence is violence" and claim that words endanger students on college campuses.  They're the people who invented concepts like "safe spaces" and the like.  But now, all of a sudden, they pull up the emergency brake and do the bootlegger's turn and NOBODY has a right to feel comfortable in public?

It's gaslighting.  And whether Pastor Stoffregen really, really believes what he says or is participating in the lie is really immaterial (I won't say which I think because I really don't know and I don't know whether willful ignorance or dishonesty is the more charitable option).  The point is, as I have said numerous times -- we aren't falling for the banana in the tailpipe.  And until people start saying so outright, it only gets worse.

I'm saying so.  The author of this op-ed is lying and it is gaslighting.  Telling people there is some sort of universal principle that the offended get to define the offense may not be lying, but it is gaslighting, in that it is demonstrably untrue.  The only rules regarding who is offended and who is offensive have to do with loose identity associations like sexual orientation, so-called gender identity, race, sex (unless you're white and Christian), etc.  And those rules change literally every day, so it's probably best not to pretend they're rules at all.  They're convenient rationalizations for abusing people the left doesn't like.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 08, 2021, 09:11:14 AM

As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own.


Really?  "In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)

Do critical race theorists believe there are other right perspectives than their own?   Has Cheryl Harris stated that “whiteness maybe isn’t property” and no one bothered to cover it in the news?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: pearson on July 08, 2021, 09:31:30 AM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?

Tom Pearson
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Coach-Rev on July 08, 2021, 10:30:16 AM
quite a telling video that shows truth is NOT relative for most people, despite what Brian likes to claim about "multiple truths."

https://www.prageru.com/video/leftist-students-support-segregation/
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 08, 2021, 10:45:38 AM
The issue is not whether white are automatically racist.
The issue is how we look at our history, our laws, our society, the ways we live with each other.
If we do not see how race has dominated, shaped and - usually for ill towards many - created our life today, we do not have a clear, honest and helpful understanding of who we are, where we were, what we have done how we got where we are today and where we should go.
Has race been an important factor in the development and shaping of America? Certainly. Has race far too often been ignored or downplayed as a factor? Most likely. Is race the interpretive paradigm through which all of American history and life should be studied and understood, the one factor much more than any other that has dominated American life and shaped everything that we are and have become? No. Life is messy and complicated. It has always been tempting to simplify our understanding of the vast, multivaried, kaleidoscopic phenomenon that is life by forcing everything into a limited number of categories analyzed according to a single interpretive principle. Marxists tend to see everything as related to money, for Freudians all human behavior relates to sex in one way or another, for Post-Modernists everything is reducible to power and all motivation ultimately is the motivation for power, for the current anti-Racists everything happens and happened because of race. But life just ain't that simple!


Too bad Freud probably never said it, but the Freudian observation that "Gentlemen, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" is a useful caution. I have no doubt but that the motivation of racism has been ignored too often as we consider our history and contemporary situation. But not everything is racism. In commenting on her disdain for Fourth of July celebrations, one comment in the news (I forget from whom) was that why should we celebrate the 4th since the American Revolution happened simply because the colonists were afraid that British abolitionists would take away their slaves. That come straight out of the 1619 Project, and historically speaking is not only a gross oversimplification of the history of the American Revolution but is an outright fabrication and misrepresentation of what we know of the revolution.


The racism that has been a part of our American story and life needs to be reckoned with. But we cannot really do that if we distort and misrepresent our story and life to either downplay or exaggerate the role that race has played and continues to play.


I am diabetic. If I pig out on sugar and carbohydrates, I am going to get into trouble. My blood sugar will soar leading to all sorts of complications. If it goes too high, it could kill me directly. But if in order to avoid having too much sugar in my blood I don't eat enough, even carbohydrates, I will also get into dire trouble. I'll wind up in a hypoglycemic episode and untreated could also kill me. That is why I carry with me both insulin and glucose gel. As well as my blood glucose meter so that I can test myself and take appropriate action. It was the invention of the portable glucose meter that transformed diabetic treatment since it allowed immediate, accurate data on blood glucose levels. I can administer insulin based on what I need at the time by the meter. And if I get the sweats and shakes I can test myself and take sugar if I am too low,


We have a problem with racism in American society. To ignore racism and allow it flourish unchecked would be poisonous to our society. We dare not do that. But to see everything only in terms of race would also be harmful. It would be like seeing all of my health concerns only in terms of diabetes, as though my blood pressure should only concern me as it relates to my diabetes. Changing the medical metaphor a bit, obsessively seeing everything in terms of race could end up being like an allergy or autoimmune disorder. We begin attacking each other even when not really doing something racist.


So yes, we must face the racism that has been a part of our American story, recognize how laws and policies that ostensibly have nothing to do with race may nevertheless create racial disparities, and work to clean up the messes in our society that past racism have left behind. But we also need to be careful lest in looking for racism we find it where it is not. No doctor would attempt to examine a patient with a glucose meter as his only tool - as important a tool as that can be. Neither can we understand our society and work to improve it by having as our only tool a racism detector.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 10:45:56 AM
Another example -- now if you don't wholesale adopt the theory of evolution, you are a white supremacist.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/denial-of-evolution-is-a-form-of-white-supremacy/?fbclid=IwAR3sqZuh322Dr5ixxxl5JLBxhYZbsyilogTuryEGJ24vLG-CaX8elP4hRng

https://youtu.be/HktV2yGtLv8
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 08, 2021, 10:59:22 AM
Another example -- now if you don't wholesale adopt the theory of evolution, you are a white supremacist.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/denial-of-evolution-is-a-form-of-white-supremacy/?fbclid=IwAR3sqZuh322Dr5ixxxl5JLBxhYZbsyilogTuryEGJ24vLG-CaX8elP4hRng

https://youtu.be/HktV2yGtLv8
Which is weird because the theory of evolution was a major prop for the theory of racial superiority in the abstract.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 11:04:56 AM
Another example -- now if you don't wholesale adopt the theory of evolution, you are a white supremacist.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/denial-of-evolution-is-a-form-of-white-supremacy/?fbclid=IwAR3sqZuh322Dr5ixxxl5JLBxhYZbsyilogTuryEGJ24vLG-CaX8elP4hRng

https://youtu.be/HktV2yGtLv8
Which is weird because the theory of evolution was a major prop for the theory of racial superiority in the abstract.

Oh, you're looking for logic?  What you should be asking is "what group generally takes issue with evolutionary theory."  It's the group association that matters, not whether any of this is true.  Denial of evolution is white supremacy because white supremacists deny evolution, and white supremacists do white supremacist things. How do we know they're white supremacists?  Because they deny evolution.  Why is denying evolution white supremacy?  Because white supremacists deny evolution.

See?

This is basically the rhetorical equivalent of saying "so's your mother."  Only it's endorsed by those in higher education, the media, Hollywood, etc., so it has a sort of imprimatur of legitimacy.  We should all call it what it is -- the reduction of everything to the pejorative based solely on your race or religion.  In other words, it's bigotry, precisely the thing these folks want to say we're all guilty of.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 08, 2021, 11:17:16 AM
This is basically the rhetorical equivalent of saying "so's your mother."  Only it's endorsed by those in higher education, the media, Hollywood, etc., so it has a sort of imprimatur of legitimacy.  We should all call it what it is -- the reduction of everything to the pejorative based solely on your race or religion.  In other words, it's bigotry, precisely the thing these folks want to say we're all guilty of.
Yes, this is the particular gaslighting (something you mentioned earlier) that is so problematic.  Because it's being done by the people who used to be, and still presume to be, the arbiters of truth in our culture:  media/opinion elites.  They claimed the objectivity to sift through competing facts/opinions.  Except now they are the cheerleaders for all this, in pursuit of an agenda they whole heartedly support (into the Cancel Culture they've nurtured comes for them individually, obviously).  The modern media was never truly non-partisan (Cronkite and the Tet Offensive etc), yet the objectivity has collapsed yet they retain the pretense.  No other explanation for affirming the voter ID laws are Jim Crow racial discrimination.  It's a partisan weapon to bludgeon the enemy.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 12:16:47 PM

As I understand it: In simplest terms critical race theory challenges us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own.


Really?  "In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)

Do critical race theorists believe there are other right perspectives than their own?   Has Cheryl Harris stated that “whiteness maybe isn’t property” and no one bothered to cover it in the news?


Yes, at least from what I've read about it.


I think of it as being like the attached picture, but replace the number with "U.S. History;" and have one person be a white male viewing our history from his perspective and experience, and the other person being any one (or a combination of) of the CRT categories: Black, female, Latinx, lgbt, Native, immigrant, etc. who also looks at U.S. History from their experience and perspectives.


However, there is a third perspective, which I consider the liberal perspective, which are those who view the whole picture from outside the two arguing about who is right. We see the number. We see the two people. We see that they are coming from different perspectives. We can see how both can be right when viewing the object from their perspective.


I would hope that we could agree that the way most white men view police officers is likely to be different than how a Black man views them. I hope we could agree that the way most white Americans view Columbus (as the "discoverer" of America) is different than how Native peoples will view the incursion of Europeans to their land. I have seen, read, and heard how women  and minorities frequently approach biblical studies and interpretations differently than I have done as a white male. Mark Allen Powell relates how Americans, Russians, and Tanzanian seminary students saw something different when asked about what got the prodigal son in trouble. He relates at being surprised by the Tanzanians' response, because, although what they saw as primary was in the text, it was something Powell had never noticed before.


He also relates how clergy and lay people had slightly different responses to these two questions: "What does the text mean?" and "What does the text mean to you?" For the laity, their answers to the two questions was exactly the same. For the clergy, they had different answers; they saw them as two separate questions.


There are all kinds of examples of how one's perspective changes how we see and understand what is true. It is also true (at least from my studies of Type Theory) that those with a Feeling preference are more likely to be one of the people in the picture arguing for what is right vs. what is wrong. They are more likely to get personally involved in a discussion/argument. Those with a Thinking preference are more likely to separate themselves from the argument and look at the whole issue as a neutral observer. They tend not to take arguments personally.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 12:20:51 PM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?


As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 12:29:46 PM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?


As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.

But you don't do that Pastor Stoffregen.  This line of discussion started mostly when you brought your wife's experience at an LCMS church into the picture, and said it was "mansplaining."  You did not look at it from the perspective of the man, and in fact when I suggested the man's perspective was not in any way affected by the fact your wife is a woman, you said the person who is offended gets to judge the words.

I guess it's interesting in some way that you view white supremacy as just another perspective on the world, equally valid alongside CRT, which sees a lot of things as being white supremacy.  I think if pushed to the wall you wouldn't like being called a white supremacist though.  And if we started quoting your words here as "white supremacist Brian Stoffregen said," you'd think we were being unfair.

I've also seen the fruits of your lack of perspective in how you have, at least in the past, recounted the story of your wife's visit to her former congregation.  From where I sit, you did not take their perspective into account at all.  You painted them as mean, unloving, etc.  Even in this discussion, you said they were patronizing and insulting.  Granted, this time you said that was from your wife's perspective, but you also said hers is the one that matters.  I don't think you are anywhere near as outside the argument as you think you are.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 08, 2021, 12:37:35 PM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?


As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.
That whole notion hinges on the idea that truth and meaning is a construct. Not in your picture is the one who drew the little design, who may have meant six or may have meant nine, or may have been writing in some unknown language or just doodling, but certainly was not saying anything meaningful by which six and nine were equally valid interpretations.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Randy Bosch on July 08, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.

Well, at least you've positioned yourself off of one slippery slope -- at the bottom.

Not a hypothetical: Two countries agree to invade and dismember a third country, dividing it between them, because each of them, for entirely different reasons, is expressing their truth about the situation (eliminating another country and taking its people and lands as their own) - the truth (as they perceive it).  You believe that you can accept that they are expressing their perception. Your belief has no value literally or philosophically - particularly to the people and the country extinguished by those truths.
What do you, personally find edifying about that position?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 02:11:57 PM
But you don't do that Pastor Stoffregen.  This line of discussion started mostly when you brought your wife's experience at an LCMS church into the picture, and said it was "mansplaining."  You did not look at it from the perspective of the man, and in fact when I suggested the man's perspective was not in any way affected by the fact your wife is a woman, you said the person who is offended gets to judge the words.


Yes, I was speaking from the perspective as an outside observer of the two people looking at the number. My wife, and LCMS clergy were the two people arguing about the truth of the number.

Quote
I guess it's interesting in some way that you view white supremacy as just another perspective on the world, equally valid alongside CRT, which sees a lot of things as being white supremacy.  I think if pushed to the wall you wouldn't like being called a white supremacist though.  And if we started quoting your words here as "white supremacist Brian Stoffregen said," you'd think we were being unfair.


Where did I say that white supremacy perspective is equally valid? One of the benefits of trying to be the outside observe of the sides in the drawing is that should one said be arguing that the number is a five; we can conclude that they are misperceiving the number. Or, to be more generous, we can explore why they are seeing the shape as a 5 and not a 6 or 9.

Quote
I've also seen the fruits of your lack of perspective in how you have, at least in the past, recounted the story of your wife's visit to her former congregation.  From where I sit, you did not take their perspective into account at all.  You painted them as mean, unloving, etc.  Even in this discussion, you said they were patronizing and insulting.  Granted, this time you said that was from your wife's perspective, but you also said hers is the one that matters.  I don't think you are anywhere near as outside the argument as you think you are.


Actually, we never made it to the congregation. When the pastor told her parents that she couldn't commune with them, they went without us. We went to my home church. Perhaps the one who might have been more angry at the pastor than my wife was her father, who was council president at the time. He also said that none of his church friends were aware that their "close communion" policy could mean that their children couldn't commune with the family. The outcome was that that pastor was soon gone and they got a more liberal pastor in his place. We attended once with the parents on a non-communion Sunday.

I personally did not have a problem with the pastor upholding LCMS policy. I respect your right to have and practice it even though I disagree with it. As an "outside observer," I'm sharing what I saw and heard from my wife; the hurt that she (and her family) had over this policy. When I've attended Roman Catholic masses, I respect their position and have gone up for a blessing (at a friend's ordination) or stay in my seat during the sacrament. Had a priest, knowing I was a Lutheran, invited me to commune with them, I would have gone.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 02:19:54 PM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?


As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.
That whole notion hinges on the idea that truth and meaning is a construct. Not in your picture is the one who drew the little design, who may have meant six or may have meant nine, or may have been writing in some unknown language or just doodling, but certainly was not saying anything meaningful by which six and nine were equally valid interpretations.


6 or 9 are equally valid interpretations. The outside observe can see that, while the two arguing are blind to the other's perspective. If one argued 2 or 5, the outside observe would see that there is a misperception. Arguing that it is 2 is not based on reality (as seen by the observer). Truth that corresponds to perceived reality has, to use a phrase from the old Bethel Bible Series, "freedom within limits." In the drawing, 6 and 9 are expressions of truth based on correct (but incomplete) perceptions. 2 or 5 are not expressions of correct perceptions.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 02:31:53 PM
As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.

Well, at least you've positioned yourself off of one slippery slope -- at the bottom.

Not a hypothetical: Two countries agree to invade and dismember a third country, dividing it between them, because each of them, for entirely different reasons, is expressing their truth about the situation (eliminating another country and taking its people and lands as their own) - the truth (as they perceive it).  You believe that you can accept that they are expressing their perception. Your belief has no value literally or philosophically - particularly to the people and the country extinguished by those truths.
What do you, personally find edifying about that position?


You're taking my example to another step: adding a value judgment by the outside observer. Based on the broader picture of the observer, s/he can conclude that one or both sides is not properly seeing reality.


To use a real example: was the colonizing of America by Europeans a good thing or a bad thing? I think that most of us European-Americans have seen it as a good thing. It became the "land of opportunity" for our ancestors and we have benefited from it. For many Native Americans, it has been a bad thing. They invaded their lands. They conquered them and took their property. They infected them with deadly diseases. They treated them as less than human.


I don't think that there is anything untruthful about either of those perspectives; thus, both can be "true" at the same time based on the perspective of the speaker.


From my perspective, CRT is arguing that for too long we have only heard from the European-American (males). All the other voices of our land need to have an equal say in describing our history. (At the same time, from the observers' viewpoint, we judge as to whether their perceptions seem to be based in reality, but we need to be sure that we are in the position of an outside observer and not seeing from the dominant European-American male perspective.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 08, 2021, 02:34:31 PM
Are all perspectives and therefore all interpretations created equal? That depends on what is being perceived. In the case Brian's picture of the two men viewing the same numeral, both of their perspectives are equaling valid to make sense of the graphic symbol because the graphic symbol is ambiguous. Depending on the point of view the same graphic could be equally understandable as a 6 or a 9. In order to make a definitive determination of what the graphic means, more information would be needed to put it in context.


Substitute a "4" for the 6/9 and the situation changes. No matter what viewing angle, if we assume that we are dealing with standard western numbers the 4 is always a 4. It may be upside down or sideways, but it is "4." A 6 can be the symbol for 9 if rotated, which is what Brian's picture depends upon. Rotate a 4 any way you wish and it will remain a rotated 4. It's meaning is invariant upon rotation.


Different groups and different people will have differing perspectives on historical events. People could focus on different aspects of the event, or the differing roles that people played in the event, the differing effects that result from the events on different people. Each perspective is a partial understanding of the whole of the event. With enough information and enough thought, one could even show how these different perspectives relate to each other and fit together to give a more complete accounting of the whole of the event. Thus, women, men, Blacks, whites, Asians, etc. could each have their perspective and take on WWII and while they differ, if they are honest perspectives one could see why they are valid perspectives on the same events. Taken together they provide a more complete picture of the whole.


However, that is not what the 1619 Project is attempting to do with American history. It has been recommended not as an additional perspective but as the one perspective that we as Americans need to have on America and that needs to be taught in our schools. That in itself is problematic. To say that only the perspective of white males on American history is important, valid, and should be taught would be wrong and impoverish our understanding of America. But it would also be wrong and impoverishing to say that only the perspective of Blacks on American history is important and should be taught.


But if we look at historical events from differing perspectives, we are still looking at the same event, with data that is open and available to all. The 1619 Project not only would privilege one perspective over all others, the perspective is pushed is a distorted one. Take for example, the 1619 Project perspective on the American Revolution. In the perspective of the Project, the American Revolution was fought for racist reasons, to preserve American slavery against the threat of British abolitionists. The problem with this perspective is not that it differs from what has been the standard perspective, but that it is not based the information that is available about the Revolution. As history it is bad history. It does not accord with the facts that we have. That is not just a matter a different perspective, it is myth making in the face of contrary facts. It did not happen that way.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 08, 2021, 02:42:00 PM
From my perspective, CRT is arguing that for too long we have only heard from the European-American (males). All the other voices of our land need to have an equal say in describing our history. (At the same time, from the observers' viewpoint, we judge as to whether their perceptions seem to be based in reality, but we need to be sure that we are in the position of an outside observer and not seeing from the dominant European-American male perspective.)
I don't know if you would include the 1619 Project in CRT. I am less interested in arguing what is and is not included in CRT than I am in what is going on in our national discussion about race.


I could agree that we have prioritized the male European-American perspective on history too much and that there is a need to consider and learn from the perspectives of other peoples. However we will not foster good discussion much less good decision making if we accept historical fabrications as history and as another acceptable perspective.


As I pointed out before. The much of the historical basis and assertions of the 1619 Project contribution to the discussion are historical fabrications rejected by historians who widely acknowledged as experts in the field.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 02:48:16 PM
This seems timely.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/is-critical-race-theory-the-wrong-836?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo5NTg1OTUwLCJwb3N0X2lkIjozODUzMTY4NCwiXyI6IlYxQW5XIiwiaWF0IjoxNjI1NzY5NjMwLCJleHAiOjE2MjU3NzMyMzAsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0xMDQyIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.iTG3CRWQNSR_7Lr4egsLZJnaDWfcA0a-5AxltRwcshA

"Less than a month after these pieces, the Washington Post came out with, 'Why ‘White’ should be capitalized, too,' arguing: 'No longer should white people be allowed the comfort of this racial invisibility; they should have to see themselves as raced.'

In a flash the bulk of the business dropped their righteous reservations about using Stormfront style guide, and began employing capital Ws all over. I’ve since gone back to lower-casing everyone. People just make these things up on the fly, reveling in the overthrow of prevailing attitudes, even if the overturned standards are ones they themselves set ten minutes ago. It’s fashion, not politics."

(SNIP)

"Two years ago, writer Wesley Yang penned a series of tweets about the 'new language of power throughout the non-profit sphere,' giving it a name: the 'Successor Ideology.' The author of The Souls of Yellow Folk created an umbrella term to explain everything from whatever the hideous moniker “cancel culture” means to purges of classics and STEM disciplines in universities, to the new move toward segregated 'affinity spaces,' to 'intent doesn’t matter,' to the spread of workforce training sessions that ask white employees in both the public and private sectors to focus on things like 'undoing your own whiteness,' to a dozen other things.

What Yang went on to describe in a series of articles and appearances isn’t narrowly about race, or trans issues, or feminism, or American history, but a much wider concept that argues that our foundational notions about everything are wrong and need to be overturned.

Conversely, a wide variety of oppositional theologies, of varying degrees of eccentricity, have become allied in a unified front of negation:

Twitter avatar for @wesyang
Wesley Yang
@wesyang
From eco-feminism to Carlos Castenada to Carol Gilligan to German Romanticism, there isn't a single woolly-headed critique of Western philosophy that isn't thrown willy-nilly into this stew and presented as authoritative, despite the obvious internal inconsistency.
May 21st 2019

The movement Yang describes is strategically brilliant and substantively moronic, a perfect intellectual killing machine. The Successor Ideology has blown through institutional America with great speed, coming to dominate everything from academia to the news media to Silicon Valley almost overnight.

Attempts by conservatives or even critics on the left to question any of this are usually described in news accounts as efforts to clamp down on something uncontroversially right and necessary, e.g. 'educational discussions about race.' This ignores the fact that the movement seems also to be about things like ending blind auditions for orchestra applicants, or redefining mathematics to discourage a focus on “getting the right answer,” to classics teachers canceling the classics, and many other bizarre things.

In some instances it pleases intellectuals to argue that all of these things are and must be connected — that the opponent of police brutality must also stand in opposition to everything from the Harper’s Letter to the young adult novels of Amélie Zhao and EE Charlton-Trujillo. Sometimes, as in the case of the response to latest Republican backlash, the argument is not only that none of these things are connected, but that there’s nothing to connect. Which view is right?"
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 08, 2021, 02:53:31 PM


"In simplest terms," then, there's actually no difference between critical race theory and white supremacist theory, is there?


Do white supremacist believe there are other right perspectives? (I don't think so.)


That's irrelevant.  Regardless of what white white supremacists believe, they still "challenge us to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own" just as much as critical race theory "challenges us to to recognize that there are other perspectives of truth than our own," don't they?


As I wrote in another post, I believe that our position should not be either of the people in the picture, but as an outside observer who can see how both are expressing the truth as they perceive it. Even if we disagree with their position, we can accept that they are expressing their perception.
That whole notion hinges on the idea that truth and meaning is a construct. Not in your picture is the one who drew the little design, who may have meant six or may have meant nine, or may have been writing in some unknown language or just doodling, but certainly was not saying anything meaningful by which six and nine were equally valid interpretations.


6 or 9 are equally valid interpretations. The outside observe can see that, while the two arguing are blind to the other's perspective. If one argued 2 or 5, the outside observe would see that there is a misperception. Arguing that it is 2 is not based on reality (as seen by the observer). Truth that corresponds to perceived reality has, to use a phrase from the old Bethel Bible Series, "freedom within limits." In the drawing, 6 and 9 are expressions of truth based on correct (but incomplete) perceptions. 2 or 5 are not expressions of correct perceptions.
To the degree that meaningless can be precise, you have captured it. Six can be nine, nine can be six, reality is subjective, the symbol corresponds to nothing.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 03:19:41 PM
Also timely -- regarding David French and friends' op-ed in the NYT criticizing those who don't want CRT taught in public schools:

https://americanmind.substack.com/p/david-vichy-french?fbclid=IwAR02_hqtK63JxNzfZpQccbnHWnR4YBxWdcZ-OFRkto1cY0uowLfwPhI-8uM

"Avoiding the discomfort or guilt of children while teaching history is not a valid educational principle, they argue, because history is messy, and to clean it up for the sake of feelings is to whitewash the past: 'Indeed, the very act of learning history in a free and multiethnic society is inescapably fraught. Any accurate teaching of any country’s history could make some of its citizens feel uncomfortable (or even guilty) about the past. To deny this necessary consequence of education is, to quote W.E.B. Du Bois, to transform ‘history into propaganda.’'

The bills inspired by Rufo do not state that children should not be made to feel uncomfortable in any way by an even-keeled lesson in history. The bills instead emphasize that children should not be made to feel uncomfortable precisely on the basis of their immutable identity in the particular way that Critical Race Theory divides and categorizes people, singling out white children and forcing them to publicly “examine their privilege” in light of the liberal revisionist retelling of the past that would make them believe all their ancestors are in hell.

CRT is not, contrary to the authors’ implicit suggestion, a new, 'critical' but still neutral administration of historical fact. It instead explicitly, necessarily demonizes an entire racial group as a part of its so-called interpretive lens. To end with the Du Bois quote as if to suggest that the opponents of CRT are the party guilty of turning American history into reductionist propaganda is flagrant political projection and gaslighting."

Especially this part, which I alluded to earlier:

"Totalitarians do not get very far without the help of enablers who, whether out of fear, principle, or instinctual subservience to power, pave the way to hell. Thankfully, no 'conservative' who has ever attempted to conserve anything (especially the innocence of children) reads David French. He does not write for conservatives. He and the rest of the “good faith conservatives” write for liberals and for libertarians who need liberals to pat them on the heads and say, 'Good boy.' The project of the obsequious person is to secure his social status among people who hate him. Maybe he knows that. Maybe that’s why."
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 08, 2021, 03:25:26 PM
If my color is going to be capitalized, it should be accurate: Pink.

Same if it's not capitalized: I'm a pink man.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
If my color is going to be capitalized, it should be accurate: Pink.

Same if it's not capitalized: I'm a pink man.

Peace,
Michael

I'm more tannish-peachy.  Some spots more tan, some more peach, but that's as far as I'll explain the matter.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 08, 2021, 03:40:00 PM
If my color is going to be capitalized, it should be accurate: Pink.

Same if it's not capitalized: I'm a pink man.

I'm more tannish-peachy.  Some spots more tan, some more peach, but that's as far as I'll explain the matter.
Since VERY few of us are mimes, how did we come to be called white (or White)?

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: James S. Rustad on July 08, 2021, 03:42:10 PM
If my color is going to be capitalized, it should be accurate: Pink.

Same if it's not capitalized: I'm a pink man.

Peace,
Michael

I'm more tannish-peachy.  Some spots more tan, some more peach, but that's as far as I'll explain the matter.

I'm more of a light tan color.  Darker than my wife, but lighter than my son.  All three of us get darker in the summer and lighter in the winter.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 08, 2021, 04:49:56 PM
That whole notion hinges on the idea that truth and meaning is a construct. Not in your picture is the one who drew the little design, who may have meant six or may have meant nine, or may have been writing in some unknown language or just doodling, but certainly was not saying anything meaningful by which six and nine were equally valid interpretations.
6 or 9 are equally valid interpretations. The outside observe can see that, while the two arguing are blind to the other's perspective. If one argued 2 or 5, the outside observe would see that there is a misperception. Arguing that it is 2 is not based on reality (as seen by the observer). Truth that corresponds to perceived reality has, to use a phrase from the old Bethel Bible Series, "freedom within limits." In the drawing, 6 and 9 are expressions of truth based on correct (but incomplete) perceptions. 2 or 5 are not expressions of correct perceptions.
To the degree that meaningless can be precise, you have captured it. Six can be nine, nine can be six, reality is subjective, the symbol corresponds to nothing.

This kind of sophistry really doesn't interest me.  If you have 6 life preservers and 9 passengers on a sinking ship in the middle of the ocean, it is an objective fact that 3 passengers will have to go without one.  That doesn't mean they will die, as I'm sure any number of alternatives might be possible, using debris to stay afloat, good swimmers, whatever.  There may even be a life boat that can contain all 9.  It does not change the fact 3 people in that boat will not be able to wear a preserver if the other 6 have theirs on.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 04:59:34 PM
That whole notion hinges on the idea that truth and meaning is a construct. Not in your picture is the one who drew the little design, who may have meant six or may have meant nine, or may have been writing in some unknown language or just doodling, but certainly was not saying anything meaningful by which six and nine were equally valid interpretations.
6 or 9 are equally valid interpretations. The outside observe can see that, while the two arguing are blind to the other's perspective. If one argued 2 or 5, the outside observe would see that there is a misperception. Arguing that it is 2 is not based on reality (as seen by the observer). Truth that corresponds to perceived reality has, to use a phrase from the old Bethel Bible Series, "freedom within limits." In the drawing, 6 and 9 are expressions of truth based on correct (but incomplete) perceptions. 2 or 5 are not expressions of correct perceptions.
To the degree that meaningless can be precise, you have captured it. Six can be nine, nine can be six, reality is subjective, the symbol corresponds to nothing.

This kind of sophistry really doesn't interest me.  If you have 6 life preservers and 9 passengers on a sinking ship in the middle of the ocean, it is an objective fact that 3 passengers will have to go without one.  That doesn't mean they will die, as I'm sure any number of alternatives might be possible, using debris to stay afloat, good swimmers, whatever.  There may even be a life boat that can contain all 9.  It does not change the fact 3 people in that boat will not be able to wear a preserver if the other 6 have theirs on.

Worse, if there are 9 life preservers but only 6 passengers, 3 passengers will have to wear 2!
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Richard Johnson on July 08, 2021, 05:57:46 PM
Another example of white cultural dominance: it used to be that there was a crayon whose color was labeled "flesh." You can guess what color it was.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 08, 2021, 06:07:08 PM
Another example of white cultural dominance: it used to be that there was a crayon whose color was labeled "flesh." You can guess what color it was.
The world according to Binney & Smith.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 08, 2021, 06:38:25 PM
Another example of white cultural dominance: it used to be that there was a crayon whose color was labeled "flesh." You can guess what color it was.

I was at the secret white people meeting where we conspired to label crayons in order to preserve white supremacy power structures, so I can attest this is accurate.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 08, 2021, 06:57:58 PM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 08, 2021, 08:15:07 PM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?

I like this chart and will find ways to explore it with others in the parish.  Very useful, thanks.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 08, 2021, 08:17:29 PM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?

My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".  This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 02:00:45 AM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?

My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".  This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.


Where do you see that on the chart?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 09, 2021, 05:23:51 AM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 09, 2021, 08:37:23 AM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 09, 2021, 09:01:42 AM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 09, 2021, 09:12:19 AM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.

Well, they ARE right.  I misquoted it.  But you are also right: the meaning is the same.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 09, 2021, 09:13:33 AM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 09, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know.

By the way, if the claim that all whites are racist is what I perceive CRT to be saying then, according to Revs. Stoffregen and Austin, it MUST be so.  Because what really matters is what the recipient perceives, and NOT what the speaker/writer intended (or even actually said).
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: MaddogLutheran on July 09, 2021, 09:19:01 AM
Another example of white cultural dominance: it used to be that there was a crayon whose color was labeled "flesh." You can guess what color it was.

I was at the secret white people meeting where we conspired to label crayons in order to preserve white supremacy power structures, so I can attest this is accurate.
I had been trying to come up with a pithy way to mention that crayon color conundrum, but the moderator got to it first.  My wife is in on this supremacy power structure, as she was just looking for the proper yarn to make some kind of knitted dolls or something, and I called her out on her privilege.

I suggested to her that the only proper true flesh color is obviously orange.  Remember, mocking someone's skin tone is morally reprehensible.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: JEdwards on July 09, 2021, 09:32:05 AM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?
I think #3 is problematic.  I can't say that it is false, because it is too vague to be rigorously evaluated as either true or false.  However, it is completely useless as a guiding principle for action, unless one is prepared to make the argument that legal advancement for minorities is undesirable because it involves collaborating in a scheme to benefit the dominant group.  So the only practical impact of endorsing the statement is to promote cynicism and the questioning of others' motives.

Do you really accept number 6?  If so, why would you, as a white man, participate in discussions on the impact of racism? At the very least, you ought to defer to the insights of Justice Clarence Thomas and Dr. Thomas Sowell on what can mitigate the impact of racism on the Black community.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 09, 2021, 11:01:01 AM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know.

By the way, if the claim that all whites are racist is what I perceive CRT to be saying then, according to Revs. Stoffregen and Austin, it MUST be so.  Because what really matters is what the recipient perceives, and NOT what the speaker/writer intended (or even actually said).

Shut up, white boy. It’s time for you to listen.

(In some alternate universe where the mansplaining pastors Austin and Stoffregen aren’t white).
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 09, 2021, 11:02:38 AM
Another description of CRT. Which of these do you object to and why?

My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".  This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.


Where do you see that on the chart?
You're right, it isn't on the chart. Nevertheless it is not just minorities that get stereotyped. The "all whites are racist" meme may not officially be a part of CRT, but it does circulate. Or how about the ACAB stereotype? ACAB roughly translates as "every police officer is the product of an illicit sexual liaison between unmarried people."


Part of the problem is that CRT does not have a widely accepted and followed definition. It started as an academic exercise in law school but has since been much more widely applied and depending on who is applying it accumulated various accretions that may or more may not be accurate, fair, or even what the originators of CRT intended. As a designator of a specific theory it has gone the way of "liberal" and become whatever the specific speaker wants it to mean. It is probably unfortunate that the Mid-South District labeled that which they opposed and objected to as CRT.


A whole industry has grown out of anti-racism. Books and articles have been written. People have set themselves up as anti-racist pundits, experts, and trainers. Training seminars have been developed and sold. Some of it is helpful and needed. But inevitably abuses arise along with the beneficial which is what, it seems to me, the Mid-South District opposed. The whole concept of the evils of "whiteness" and how "whiteness" must be eradicated have often been pushed into what is itself racism.


Along with CRT have grown other projects and trends of which the "1619 Project" is a good example. Now, is the "1619 Project" an example of CRT in action or is it a separate phenomenon? The "1619 Project" is itself, it seems to me, an example of a good idea - reexamining the role that racism has played throughout American history to help us get a handle on areas where we still need to root out racism - pushed to extreme so that it itself become part of the problem. It is most likely that the role of racism in the American story has been under reported. But the Project takes that and now over emphasizes it to be the whole story and the only paradigm that should be used in writing and teaching history. When we go from one extreme to the other, truth is still tossed out the window.


Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 02:33:12 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 


I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't imply that all whites are racists.


Perhaps related to this, researchers are projecting that whites will be a minority in America by about 2047.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 02:35:56 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't 'get stereotyped often'" come from? I don't find it on the chart.


Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 02:41:22 PM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know.


It seems to be what the founders of CRT are striving for. Certainly there will be opponents who mischaracterize CRT. Remember that early opponents of Christianity accused us of being cannibals because we ate bodies and drank blood. They could certainly find such statements in our documents; but they didn't properly understand our meaning.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 09, 2021, 02:45:11 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.

Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

There is no "don't get stereotyped often" quote, so why are you asking?   ;D
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 09, 2021, 04:22:01 PM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know.


It seems to be what the founders of CRT are striving for. Certainly there will be opponents who mischaracterize CRT. Remember that early opponents of Christianity accused us of being cannibals because we ate bodies and drank blood. They could certainly find such statements in our documents; but they didn't properly understand our meaning.

Who is to say who is mischaracterizing what?  You just said a day or two ago it is the receiver of the message who determines whether it is offensive. Now you seem to be accusing those offended by CRT messages as people who "mischaracterize CRT."

Of course, you know this already.  This isn't the first time we've been down this road.  I said a while back, I believe in reference to Pastor Austin but right now you are lacing up his shoes, that it is not about right or wrong, or consistent application of rules.  It is about being on the right side with the right people.  You demonstrate this so clearly.  You have zero care whether the things you say are right or wrong, only that when you say them, they place you on the side of the people you wish to align yourself with.  That's why you can flip-flop inside of a trip around the sun -- because you don't care about anything other than defending the side you are aligned with.  As long as they win, you can literally reverse the rules in mid-stream.

So you've determined people who support CRT are the good people.  It doesn't matter to you whether offense ought to be determined by the giver or receiver, as long as they end up with the power and control.  So you say things, but you don't mean them.  It's why people here do not take you seriously.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 09, 2021, 04:35:56 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.

Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

There is no "don't get stereotyped often" quote, so why are you asking?   ;D


Because of the boldface in the quote box that mostly has "" around it.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 05:45:17 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that.


Yes, and I'm still asking where did the quote come from? Why did you add "don't" to it?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 05:49:11 PM
Pastor Bohler:
This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist.

Me:
Not on the chart. But Pastor Bohler heard somewhere, someplace that someone said that, so he applies it universally. And I think he is not sure that there is even a need for that chart.

Oh, so everything taught by CRT is on that chart?  Cool.  Good to know.


It seems to be what the founders of CRT are striving for. Certainly there will be opponents who mischaracterize CRT. Remember that early opponents of Christianity accused us of being cannibals because we ate bodies and drank blood. They could certainly find such statements in our documents; but they didn't properly understand our meaning.

Who is to say who is mischaracterizing what?  You just said a day or two ago it is the receiver of the message who determines whether it is offensive. Now you seem to be accusing those offended by CRT messages as people who "mischaracterize CRT."

Of course, you know this already.  This isn't the first time we've been down this road.  I said a while back, I believe in reference to Pastor Austin but right now you are lacing up his shoes, that it is not about right or wrong, or consistent application of rules.  It is about being on the right side with the right people.  You demonstrate this so clearly.  You have zero care whether the things you say are right or wrong, only that when you say them, they place you on the side of the people you wish to align yourself with.  That's why you can flip-flop inside of a trip around the sun -- because you don't care about anything other than defending the side you are aligned with.  As long as they win, you can literally reverse the rules in mid-stream.

So you've determined people who support CRT are the good people.  It doesn't matter to you whether offense ought to be determined by the giver or receiver, as long as they end up with the power and control.  So you say things, but you don't mean them.  It's why people here do not take you seriously.


So, by your logic a young boy thinks it's perfectly all right to snap a girl's bra. She takes offense at it; but she shouldn't because the boy didn't mean to offend her. Beyond that, she should listen and believe him when he says she shouldn't take offense at his actions. Her feelings; her interpretation; just don't matter in your logic.


Oh, to use the example I gave: those early Christians shouldn't be offended when they were accused of being cannibals. What they think, feel, believe doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 09, 2021, 05:52:23 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that.


Yes, and I'm still asking where did the quote come from? Why did you add "don't" to it?

He didn't.  Read it again.  The quotation marks are only on the words get stereotyped often.  You are the one who added the don't to the quotation.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 06:41:24 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that.


Yes, and I'm still asking where did the quote come from? Why did you add "don't" to it?

He didn't.  Read it again.  The quotation marks are only on the words get stereotyped often.  You are the one who added the don't to the quotation.


When will someone answer my question: Where did that line come from? I did not add "don't" to the phrase. Granted, it wasn't in the "" marks, but it was certainly part of DeHall1's original post.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 09, 2021, 07:16:58 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that.


Yes, and I'm still asking where did the quote come from? Why did you add "don't" to it?

He didn't.  Read it again.  The quotation marks are only on the words get stereotyped often.  You are the one who added the don't to the quotation.


When will someone answer my question: Where did that line come from? I did not add "don't" to the phrase. Granted, it wasn't in the "" marks, but it was certainly part of DeHall1's original post.

It's not rocket surgery.   
Pastor Bohler wrote "Minorities get stereotyped often"
The jpg file you posted states "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often."
You (and Charles) made it a point to state that what Pastor Bohler wrote isn't in the jpg.
I'm waiting patiently for you or Charles to explain the difference between the 2 statements.  To me, the 2 statements mean pretty much the same thing.

And, I'll note, rather than answer THAT question, you have gone off questioning a comment that YOU created.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 08:30:25 PM
Another source that defines CRT and its origins in the law profession.


https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/civil-rights-reimagining-policing/a-lesson-on-critical-race-theory/?fbclid=IwAR2y4LdQfK4R-so7zDRxjt165R0yNUYb_1KVAF5a0cGbXAFJAtNKa1PGI5w
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2021, 08:33:29 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.


Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

The quoted portion is "get sterotyped often".   
But you know that.


Yes, and I'm still asking where did the quote come from? Why did you add "don't" to it?

He didn't.  Read it again.  The quotation marks are only on the words get stereotyped often.  You are the one who added the don't to the quotation.


When will someone answer my question: Where did that line come from? I did not add "don't" to the phrase. Granted, it wasn't in the "" marks, but it was certainly part of DeHall1's original post.

It's not rocket surgery.   
Pastor Bohler wrote "Minorities get stereotyped often"
The jpg file you posted states "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often."
You (and Charles) made it a point to state that what Pastor Bohler wrote isn't in the jpg.
I'm waiting patiently for you or Charles to explain the difference between the 2 statements.  To me, the 2 statements mean pretty much the same thing.

And, I'll note, rather than answer THAT question, you have gone off questioning a comment that YOU created.


You wrote: Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.

Where does the bold faced line come from? It is the opposite of what Pastor Bohler wrote.


What we objected to from Pastor Bohler's post is what he wrote after what you quoted: "This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist." We asked where that is found in the post.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: DeHall1 on July 09, 2021, 10:15:14 PM
I’ll admit, I may have misunderstood your response to Pastor Bohler.  I thought your question  “Where do you see that on the chart?” Was in regards to Pastor Bohler writing “ My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".”


Of course, the rest of his comment was his on thoughts on the matter- hence the lack of quotes around them.


So again, I am waiting patiently for you to explain the difference between the comment on the chart and Pastor Bohler’s comment.  Do you think they mean essentially the same thing? If not, why not? if they do, why question his comment?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 10, 2021, 02:20:34 AM
I’ll admit, I may have misunderstood your response to Pastor Bohler.  I thought your question  “Where do you see that on the chart?” Was in regards to Pastor Bohler writing “ My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".”


No, I was not responding to that part of his post.

Quote
Of course, the rest of his comment was his on thoughts on the matter- hence the lack of quotes around them.


Yes, I was responding to his thoughts on the matter. "This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist."


Presumably, "This," refers to the part he quoted from the chart. Then he states that it came "from the same folks who tell us that all whites are racist." Where are the people who wrote the chart telling us that all whites are racist? I don't see that on the chart. I haven't seen it in any of the other sources I've read from the CRT folks. So I asked where he came up with that statement.


It seems to be a critique from those who mischaracterize CRT so that they can mount an attack against it. Like I've said, it's like the opponents of Christianity criticizes us for being cannibals.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: John_Hannah on July 10, 2021, 06:42:15 AM
Here's a interesting survey of religious affiliation:  https://religionnews.com/2021/07/08/survey-white-mainline-protestants-outnumber-white-evangelicals/

Then an Op-Ed piece on the survey results:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html

Peace, JOHN



Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Terry W Culler on July 10, 2021, 08:15:02 AM
Here's a interesting survey of religious affiliation:  https://religionnews.com/2021/07/08/survey-white-mainline-protestants-outnumber-white-evangelicals/

Then an Op-Ed piece on the survey results:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html

Peace, JOHN

I will be teaching a church history class on evangelicalism this fall semester and in my preparations I've been reading a lot about and by people who describe themselves as evangelicals. (note: my opinion--it's a meaningless word too often used, misused and abused).  Surveys used to count evangelicals often ask certain questions--do you have a high view of Scripture, do you believe in the need for a born again or conversion experience, do you believe evangelism is the main business of the church, and do you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.  Anyone who answered yes to those questions is generally categorized as an evangelical, irrespective of their denominational affiliation.  Because there are no denominations that can be called "the" or even "an" evangelical denomination the numbers can shift dramatically depending upon who is polling and reading results.  Some people (Mark Noll for example ) include Pentecostals among evangelicals--you could have a lot of discussion about that.  I suspect many evangelicals in mainline churches are not now using that description of their beliefs because they are turned off by the politicization of the term and because they don't want their relationships disrupted by what the word means in the discourse of the moment.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: John_Hannah on July 10, 2021, 08:40:02 AM
Here's a interesting survey of religious affiliation:  https://religionnews.com/2021/07/08/survey-white-mainline-protestants-outnumber-white-evangelicals/

Then an Op-Ed piece on the survey results:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html

Peace, JOHN

I will be teaching a church history class on evangelicalism this fall semester and in my preparations I've been reading a lot about and by people who describe themselves as evangelicals. (note: my opinion--it's a meaningless word too often used, misused and abused).  Surveys used to count evangelicals often ask certain questions--do you have a high view of Scripture, do you believe in the need for a born again or conversion experience, do you believe evangelism is the main business of the church, and do you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.  Anyone who answered yes to those questions is generally categorized as an evangelical, irrespective of their denominational affiliation.  Because there are no denominations that can be called "the" or even "an" evangelical denomination the numbers can shift dramatically depending upon who is polling and reading results.  Some people (Mark Noll for example ) include Pentecostals among evangelicals--you could have a lot of discussion about that.  I suspect many evangelicals in mainline churches are not now using that description of their beliefs because they are turned off by the politicization of the term and because they don't want their relationships disrupted by what the word means in the discourse of the moment.


Yes. I would like to see more data here on the actual strength of White Evangelicalism. Likewise, I would like to see alternative explanations for the popular embrace of QAnon.


Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 10, 2021, 09:27:25 AM
This will help, maybe:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html
White evangelicalism is in decline, and what will that mean?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 10, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
I take note of the median age.  And in our shrinking circles, both the more mainline ELCA and the more evangelicalist LCMS are well above the median evangelical age of 56.  So - what's the median age of mainline Protestants?  In fact, what's the median age of practicing Christians across the board?  My estimate is that the mainliners are also mid-50s, and all Christians is probably high 40s. 

At some point it's last one out turn off the lights. 

Politically, and even church-politically, it's more about where the folks of all stripes are located when it comes to, say, the electoral college or the US Senate.  In the Missouri Synod, there's very strong national representation on boards and committees from Wyoming, and very little representation from those on the East and West coasts.  I don't know how that geographic works out in the ELCA. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Likeness on July 10, 2021, 10:28:22 AM
During my pastoral ministry in the LCMS, I have seen two MIdwest Districts give us
a conservative stance on the national level:  Iowa East and Central Illinois.  They
gifted us with membership on Seminary Board of Regents, national boards, convention
resolutions, and LCMS office holders.

Rev. Alvin Barry, Rev. Paul McCain came from Iowa East and Rev. Robert Kuhn and
Rev. E.J. Otto came from Central Illinois  as well as some prominent laity.  The LCMS
has its roots in the Midwest and that fact will not change anytime soon.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Randy Bosch on July 10, 2021, 10:39:51 AM
I take note of the median age.  And in our shrinking circles, both the more mainline ELCA and the more evangelicalist LCMS are well above the median evangelical age of 56.  So - what's the median age of mainline Protestants?  In fact, what's the median age of practicing Christians across the board?  My estimate is that the mainliners are also mid-50s, and all Christians is probably high 40s. 

At some point it's last one out turn off the lights. 

Politically, and even church-politically, it's more about where the folks of all stripes are located when it comes to, say, the electoral college or the US Senate.  In the Missouri Synod, there's very strong national representation on boards and committees from Wyoming, and very little representation from those on the East and West coasts.  I don't know how that geographic works out in the ELCA. 

Dave Benke

There really was a massive growth surge via the so-called Baby Boomer generation, followed by decades of lowered birth rates and significant increases in immigration by Christians who were/are not typically main stream Christian church members or main stream evangelical church members - both in their very USA mutations.

Are the attendance declines greater in non-coastal states?  Population increases in more urbanized states seem to be much higher (not percentages, necessarily, but raw numbers), and particularly in major metropolitan areas. 

Doesn't "At some point it's last one out turn off the lights" seem a legacy ownership decision, and not the customers' choice?  Doesn't this seem to be on its way to a self-fulfilling prophecy - those young whippersnappers certainly don't have what it takes to preserve -- or transform -- what we have built?

Why does political representation seem to always devolve to rural versus urban, not on ability to carry on and spread the Word.  Is it more a "Nothing good can come out of Nazareth" issue, sometimes?  And those folks are just not worth persuading to see the legacy urban point of view?  Rather just turn out the lights?

There are some churches (rumor has it that there is one somewhere in a New York Borough) that - on the ground - don't follow this vision.  Except, are even those not bringing up and empowering successor leadership?



Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 10, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
I’m not sure that Qanon hits the level of a “popular“ influence. There are too many bat-crap crazy elements to it. On the other hand, people who are in the popular mix of authority, for example politicians, seem to pay some attention to it. And some of our people are nuts enough to elect QAnon followers to public office.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 10, 2021, 11:41:39 AM
I’ll admit, I may have misunderstood your response to Pastor Bohler.  I thought your question  “Where do you see that on the chart?” Was in regards to Pastor Bohler writing “ My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".”


No, I was not responding to that part of his post.

Quote
Of course, the rest of his comment was his on thoughts on the matter- hence the lack of quotes around them.


Yes, I was responding to his thoughts on the matter. "This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist."


Presumably, "This," refers to the part he quoted from the chart. Then he states that it came "from the same folks who tell us that all whites are racist." Where are the people who wrote the chart telling us that all whites are racist? I don't see that on the chart. I haven't seen it in any of the other sources I've read from the CRT folks. So I asked where he came up with that statement.


It seems to be a critique from those who mischaracterize CRT so that they can mount an attack against it. Like I've said, it's like the opponents of Christianity criticizes us for being cannibals.

The problem, Brian, is that we don't know who wrote the chart. You didn't tell us. There are reasons why one should give citations. One of them is so that we can research things for ourselves.

While the chart may not make the argument that all whites are racist, one does not have to look very hard to find promoters of CRT that say just that. Chris Rufro of the Manhattan Institute has done a wonderful job of documenting training, classroom material, etc. that say just that. You can also try reading DiAngelo's _White Fragility_ where she basically makes the claim that saying you are not racist proves that are. Or, better yet, you might want to read her newest book "Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm." Sadly, I can't find the source where Ibram X Kendi accuses people who, like me, adopted children whose skin is a different color, of being racist and showing our "white savior" complex.

But you hold to your charts.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 10, 2021, 12:02:45 PM
I’ll admit, I may have misunderstood your response to Pastor Bohler.  I thought your question  “Where do you see that on the chart?” Was in regards to Pastor Bohler writing “ My favorite is Number 4: "Minorities get stereotyped often".”


No, I was not responding to that part of his post.

Quote
Of course, the rest of his comment was his on thoughts on the matter- hence the lack of quotes around them.


Yes, I was responding to his thoughts on the matter. "This from the folks who tell us that all whites are racist."


Presumably, "This," refers to the part he quoted from the chart. Then he states that it came "from the same folks who tell us that all whites are racist." Where are the people who wrote the chart telling us that all whites are racist? I don't see that on the chart. I haven't seen it in any of the other sources I've read from the CRT folks. So I asked where he came up with that statement.


It seems to be a critique from those who mischaracterize CRT so that they can mount an attack against it. Like I've said, it's like the opponents of Christianity criticizes us for being cannibals.

The problem, Brian, is that we don't know who wrote the chart. You didn't tell us. There are reasons why one should give citations. One of them is so that we can research things for ourselves.

While the chart may not make the argument that all whites are racist, one does not have to look very hard to find promoters of CRT that say just that. Chris Rufro of the Manhattan Institute has done a wonderful job of documenting training, classroom material, etc. that say just that. You can also try reading DiAngelo's _White Fragility_ where she basically makes the claim that saying you are not racist proves that are. Or, better yet, you might want to read her newest book "Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm." Sadly, I can't find the source where Ibram X Kendi accuses people who, like me, adopted children whose skin is a different color, of being racist and showing our "white savior" complex.

But you hold to your charts.


The chart tells you where to look for more information. I think this link goes to the teacher who created the chart (or at least supports what it says). https://www.kindacademy.org/single-post/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-should-we-be-teaching-about-it-in-schools-crt-explained


She offers her real-life experiences of teaching "decolonized history" to students. (It hasn't led to hating whites or hating America.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Randy Bosch on July 10, 2021, 12:19:42 PM
Following up on #191 and the de-evangelicalism proto-secularization or abandonment of the remembered church, here is a view into the Church of England these days.  They are about solving the problem of declining parishes by putting the pastors out to pasture and selling off the old pile of bones churches.
 https://unherd.com/2021/07/the-church-is-abandoning-its-flock/
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 10, 2021, 12:24:04 PM
Part of the problem with discussing CRT is that there really is no definitive statement available anywhere as to just what it is and what it is not. That makes it easy for those who oppose it to take just about anything that they object to in our racial discussions and attribute it to CRT and use it as evidence against CRT. It also makes it easy for supporters of CRT to deflect criticism by simply asserting that whatever is being objected to simply isn't CRT.


I suspect that CRT has become a red herring in these discussions. "All whites are racist because they are white and product of white privilege." That may not be a tenet of CRT but is being widely affirmed by some who wish to discuss race and influence policies and training seminars. It is also objectionable even if not a part of CRT.


I am not an expert on CRT, so I will not try to state definitively if this is a criticism of CRT or of people who are pushing their own racial agenda and get lumped into CRT. But from all that I have read, there is a tendency in racial discussions and analysis to make race the universal analytic tool. Everything must be analyzed according to why it is racist. So those who have made interracial adoptions are guilty of exercising a racist "Savior Complex" not because they wanted to parent a child in need. Mathematics is racist if there is an emphasis on following correct mathematical procedures and obtaining correct answers.


That may not be CRT, but it is perverse and ultimately damages racial discussion by making the whole topic seem absurd. Racism has been such a pervasive part of American life that its effects are not always obvious. Those need to be discovered. But making everything about race, and finding ways to interpret everything that whites do as some sort of racist plot ultimately discredits the whole discussion.



Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 10, 2021, 12:28:47 PM
Here's a interesting survey of religious affiliation:  https://religionnews.com/2021/07/08/survey-white-mainline-protestants-outnumber-white-evangelicals/

Then an Op-Ed piece on the survey results:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/opinion/religious-right-america.html

Peace, JOHN

This methodology seems........odd..........

"All respondents who identify as Christian are then asked: “Would you describe yourself as a ‘born again’ or ‘evangelical Christian,’ or not?” Respondents who self-identify as white, non-Hispanic, Protestant and identify as born-again or evangelical are categorized as white evangelical Protestants. Respondents who self-identify as white, non-Hispanic, Protestant and do not identify as born-again or evangelical are categorized as white mainline Protestants."

https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/#_ftn2

So basically, they call "mainline" sort of "anything but evangelical or born-again."  Okay, but what about those who perhaps still attend an evangelical church, but simply don't identify that way themselves?  That doesn't mean they joined the Presbyterians.  It just means they don't self-identify as evangelical. 

"Mainline" has a pretty specific meaning. And for my part, I'd put church affiliation over and against self-identification any day.  A lot of people identify as a particular thing who aren't really, and vice-versa.  Every "non-denominational" Christian I've ever met is on a sliding scale between Baptist and Pentecostal, as one example.  You can call yourself whatever you want, but ultimately it ends up being pretty meaningless if that's the only basis for classification.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 10, 2021, 12:47:13 PM
Part of the problem with discussing CRT is that there really is no definitive statement available anywhere as to just what it is and what it is not. That makes it easy for those who oppose it to take just about anything that they object to in our racial discussions and attribute it to CRT and use it as evidence against CRT. It also makes it easy for supporters of CRT to deflect criticism by simply asserting that whatever is being objected to simply isn't CRT.


I suspect that CRT has become a red herring in these discussions. "All whites are racist because they are white and product of white privilege." That may not be a tenet of CRT but is being widely affirmed by some who wish to discuss race and influence policies and training seminars. It is also objectionable even if not a part of CRT.


I am not an expert on CRT, so I will not try to state definitively if this is a criticism of CRT or of people who are pushing their own racial agenda and get lumped into CRT. But from all that I have read, there is a tendency in racial discussions and analysis to make race the universal analytic tool. Everything must be analyzed according to why it is racist. So those who have made interracial adoptions are guilty of exercising a racist "Savior Complex" not because they wanted to parent a child in need. Mathematics is racist if there is an emphasis on following correct mathematical procedures and obtaining correct answers.


That may not be CRT, but it is perverse and ultimately damages racial discussion by making the whole topic seem absurd. Racism has been such a pervasive part of American life that its effects are not always obvious. Those need to be discovered. But making everything about race, and finding ways to interpret everything that whites do as some sort of racist plot ultimately discredits the whole discussion.


I believe that the best and most accurate statement of what CRT is intended to be is the link to the American Bar Association posted above. It began with a group of lawyers. It expanded from that. Some of the expansions (especially as interpreted by opponents) go far beyond the original intent. (I think a similar thing has happened with BLM, too. The original intent of those who created the movement gets hijacked by more radical folks and by those mischaracterizing it to oppose it.)


One illustration just popped up in Facebook: what should be taught about the battle at the Alamo? Was it about American heroes defending America from the ruthless Mexicans? Was it about Americans trying to drive out the Mexicans who required the Texans to give up owning slaves? (Texas legislatures certainly prefer one view over the other - and want to eliminate the slavery issue from text books. Should they?)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 10, 2021, 01:08:17 PM
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-you-e5f

Andrew Sullivan, formerly of New York Magazine, argues that CRT is really a facet of what someone he quotes as called “Successor Ideology” which seeks to overthrow liberalism more generally.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 10, 2021, 01:51:51 PM
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-you-e5f

Andrew Sullivan, formerly of New York Magazine, argues that CRT is really a facet of what someone he quotes as called “Successor Ideology” which seeks to overthrow liberalism more generally.

This, from the article, is astounding in its naïveté (not that Sullivan is immune to that -- he always prefers posturing from the middle over any sort of realistic view of the world):

"Take a big step back. Observe what has happened in our discourse since around 2015. Forget CRT for a moment and ask yourself: is nothing going on here but Republican propaganda and guile? Can you not see that the Republicans may be acting, but they are also reacting — reacting against something that is right in front of our noses?

What is it? It is, I’d argue, the sudden, rapid, stunning shift in the belief system of the American elites. It has sent the whole society into a profound cultural dislocation. It is, in essence, an ongoing moral panic against the specter of 'white supremacy,' which is now bizarrely regarded as an accurate description of the largest, freest, most successful multiracial democracy in human history."

Well, wait a minute.  Haven't a lot of us been saying for decades now that Marxist thought runs along the lines articulated by Archbishop Charles Chaput?

“Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.”

Why does Sullivan regard the "shift" as "sudden, rapid (or) stunning?"  Or, for that matter, a "shift?"  This is who they are.  It's who they always were.  We've been saying it for ages now.

The death of liberalism is first and foremost caused by the fact that a very, very large number of so-called "liberals" never believed in it to begin with.  "Tolerance" was a ruse to obtain power.  Power was the means by which tolerance would be crushed.  I mean, we've been talking about this on this board for at least the 11 years I've been posting here.  That loud pop you heard yesterday was Andrew Sullivan pulling his head out of his posterior.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 10, 2021, 02:07:14 PM
I know that when I drive across a bridge I fervently hope that the engineers who designed the bridge and supervised its construction we schooled in the old racist mathematics and engineering that were so insensitive as to insist on accurate calculations and proper design and calculation procedures and not a more racially sensitive method of design.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 10, 2021, 02:45:40 PM
So you are assuming, Pastor Fienen, that when other races are involved in structural engineering, or when we look at structural engineering from their perspective, we will be negligent of such things as precise mathematics or the physics of designing bridges?
Because after all, it’s only old white guys that insist on such things as 2+2 = 4.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 10, 2021, 02:55:19 PM
I know that when I drive across a bridge I fervently hope that the engineers who designed the bridge and supervised its construction we schooled in the old racist mathematics and engineering that were so insensitive as to insist on accurate calculations and proper design and calculation procedures and not a more racially sensitive method of design.
The Romans built bridges that are still in use today. We, however, will insist that the designers of our bridges use calculus and other tools of modern engineering unknown to the Romans. Even so, less than two hours after I drove over the I-35W bridge over the Mississippi in Minneapolis, it fell down.

What on earth do you mean by "a more racially sensitive method of design"?  ??? ???

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 10, 2021, 03:22:35 PM
So you are assuming, Pastor Fienen, that when other races are involved in structural engineering, or when we look at structural engineering from their perspective, we will be negligent of such things as precise mathematics or the physics of designing bridges?
Because after all, it’s only old white guys that insist on such things as 2+2 = 4.

You might want to read about the Seattle Public Schools curriculum before commenting.

https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf

Among other things, students will now be taught that what you have said above is "Western Math." Western Math has been appropriated from communities of color and is "used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color."

Now, some of this stuff can be helpful. It is good for us to know a bit about the history of math and the contributions of POC. Heck, our very numbers are Arabic! There can be other good ideas for rethinking math. But math as a tool of oppression? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: James_Gale on July 10, 2021, 03:25:50 PM
I know that when I drive across a bridge I fervently hope that the engineers who designed the bridge and supervised its construction we schooled in the old racist mathematics and engineering that were so insensitive as to insist on accurate calculations and proper design and calculation procedures and not a more racially sensitive method of design.
The Romans built bridges that are still in use today. We, however, will insist that the designers of our bridges use calculus and other tools of modern engineering unknown to the Romans. Even so, less than two hours after I drove over the I-35W bridge over the Mississippi in Minneapolis, it fell down.

What on earth do you mean by "a more racially sensitive method of design"?  ??? ???

Peace,
Michael


There now are a number of math education professors now arguing that math as it’s been taught is connected with whiteness and oppression. They think that we ought not focus so much on right answers. After all, 2 + 2 can equal 5. The insistence on logic and reason over intuition is an oppressive tool used by white-dominated power structures. Google Rochelle Gutierrez (a University of Illinois professor). She’s written a great deal on the need for completely revamping math education to get away from notions of right and wrong answers.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 10, 2021, 03:27:46 PM
So you are assuming, Pastor Fienen, that when other races are involved in structural engineering, or when we look at structural engineering from their perspective, we will be negligent of such things as precise mathematics or the physics of designing bridges?
Because after all, it’s only old white guys that insist on such things as 2+2 = 4.

You might want to read about the Seattle Public Schools curriculum before commenting.

https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf

Among other things, students will now be taught that what you have said above is "Western Math." Western Math has been appropriated from communities of color and is "used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of color."

Now, some of this stuff can be helpful. It is good for us to know a bit about the history of math and the contributions of POC. Heck, our very numbers are Arabic! There can be other good ideas for rethinking math. But math as a tool of oppression? I don't think so.
That paper is foolish to the point of self-parody. Math is hard enough for some students all by itself.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 10, 2021, 03:54:15 PM
So you are assuming, Pastor Fienen, that when other races are involved in structural engineering, or when we look at structural engineering from their perspective, we will be negligent of such things as precise mathematics or the physics of designing bridges?
Because after all, it’s only old white guys that insist on such things as 2+2 = 4.
No, not at all. I think for example of Neil deGrasse Tyson who is of mixed race, father African-American and mother of Puerto Rican decent. He certainly knows his math as well as a great many other things.

No, I'm thinking of the trend to call traditional ways of teaching mathematics racist. For example this Washington Times article, "Is mathematics racist? California could blaze pathway with woke math" (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/6/is-mathematics-racist-california-could-blaze-pathw/)

Quote
California education officials are considering applying a social justice paradigm to teaching K-12 mathematics that would erase “White supremacy” from the subject and eliminate gifted classes for students.

Proponents of new math say the way the subject currently is taught is suffused with White supremacy. They say it handicaps some minority students by insisting on what they consider racist concepts — such as arriving at correct answers.

Or this article in the Chicago Tribune "Is math racist? New course outlines prompt conversations about identity, race in Seattle classrooms" (https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/sns-tns-bc-edu-math-racist-20191010-story.html)

Quote
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle's recently released proposal includes questions like, "Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?" and "How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?"

Several online critics voiced their disapproval, insisting that Seattle schools were trying to politicize a subject that often serves as a universal language with clear, objective answers.

It's not the first time the project has been attacked. Some detractors, Au said, don't understand what ethnic studies is.


Perhaps I have taken what is the objective of revamping mathematics education to be more racially sensitive further than the educators desire, but what is the objective?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dana Lockhart on July 10, 2021, 05:25:29 PM
One reason we struggle to have conversations about topics like "CRT" is that it ends up being an endless game of Motte and Bailey.

With a goodly amount of plain old equivocation thrown in.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 10, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Dana Lockhart, for most of this forum you have to put an “erudition alert” on before you use a phrase like Motte and Bailey.
I generally apply it to a certain style of some of my Sandcastles.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 10, 2021, 07:18:17 PM
Dana Lockhart, for most of this forum you have to put an “erudition alert” on before you use a phrase like Motte and Bailey.
I generally apply it to a certain style of some of my Sandcastles.


I didn't know Motte and Bailey before reading this post. Fortunately I read this forum on the internet so looking up something I don't know is a couple of clicks away. Learned something here. Thanks
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 10, 2021, 11:11:38 PM
Point 4 is "Minorities deal with being stereotyped often." 

Dave Benke
Patiently waiting for Charles and/or Brian to explain how someone can “deal with being stereotyped often” when they don’t “get stereotyped often”.

Where does the quote "don't get stereotyped often" come from? I don't find it on the chart.

There is no "don't get stereotyped often" quote, so why are you asking?   ;D


Because of the boldface in the quote box that mostly has "" around it.

Oh, so now you’re changing your posts after I quote them?!! Actually, you’ve done it before.

Brian, your posts are seriously dishonest.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 11, 2021, 07:46:52 AM
Following up on #191 and the de-evangelicalism proto-secularization or abandonment of the remembered church, here is a view into the Church of England these days.  They are about solving the problem of declining parishes by putting the pastors out to pasture and selling off the old pile of bones churches.
 https://unherd.com/2021/07/the-church-is-abandoning-its-flock/

This is interesting as a strategy/tactic.  Back in the day, Episcopal Bishop Spong of New Jersey wrote what to me was a telling article that the Episcopal urban churches there should be saved for the sake of the architecture and stained glass in the church buildings.  I wrote a letter to the editor asking if it might not be more important to save the geographical locations for the sake of the saving Gospel and go out to engage some people to put in those mahogany pews. 

Where the church buildings, no matter their architecture, are worth lots of money and where they cost lots of money to maintain, would not a better strategy be to redeploy those dollars to actual Gospel outreach rather than facility repair?  Maybe so.  Secondly, are there people who are ready to do the work of Gospel outreach?  Are there missionary pastors so inclined?  Or are the pastors more accustomed to facility repair and sacristy maintenance?  At the very least, the questions are being asked and called among the Anglicans. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 09:40:15 AM
Sometimes, Bishop Benke, that mission effort may require the demise or removal of the current small number of pew- sitters. I have encountered too many congregations for whom the “mission“ is to “save“ the church for themselves. Reaching out to others, to new people in the neighborhood, or for new ways of being the church, such as - oh my goodness, no! - blending or merging with a nearby congregation in similar difficulties is a very hard sell. I know two pastors who nearly worked themselves into poor health trying to shepherd this type of congregation Into a mission that went beyond keeping the church doors open until the last current member died.
One church closed and was sold and the synod lost what should’ve been a prime mission site. One pastor nearly left the ministry, so frustrated with the congregation and the synod. Another pastor plods on, doing dreary interims, because this person is not qualified to do anything else and is at an age when any kind of employment would be difficult.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Randy Bosch on July 11, 2021, 09:53:47 AM
Sometimes, ...that mission effort may require the demise or removal of the current small number of pew- sitters.

May I suggest a rewrite of this sentence? 
As written it appears to suggest a Lt. Calley approach: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"!

Too often, a unidirectional approach is stated as the only way.  Jesus teaches both about gathering and nourishing the flock and reaching out to take the Gospel to those outside the sheepfold. 

Both/and.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 11, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Sometimes, ...that mission effort may require the demise or removal of the current small number of pew- sitters.

May I suggest a rewrite of this sentence? 
As written it appears to suggest a Lt. Calley approach: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"!

Too often, a unidirectional approach is stated as the only way.  Jesus teaches both about gathering and nourishing the flock and reaching out to take the Gospel to those outside the sheepfold. 

Both/and.

Agreed - both/and.  Agreed as well that the combination of very small flock and very large facility cost cannot be sustained, and those who have located their faith only in that facility are not only mistaken but may prevent outreach.  Honest conversations lead to better decisions.  As I've said here before, if the congregation comes to the conclusion that it's a choice between maintaining the building or having a pastor/church worker, the normal response is for the former. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 12:45:07 PM
And sometimes the truth is that the last of the “old guard” are just that, fiercely guarding the old and blocking the new.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 11, 2021, 12:55:31 PM
Sometimes denominations must make such hard decisions, like with the recent closings of some Concordias.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 11, 2021, 02:10:41 PM
Following up on #191 and the de-evangelicalism proto-secularization or abandonment of the remembered church, here is a view into the Church of England these days.  They are about solving the problem of declining parishes by putting the pastors out to pasture and selling off the old pile of bones churches.
 https://unherd.com/2021/07/the-church-is-abandoning-its-flock/ (https://unherd.com/2021/07/the-church-is-abandoning-its-flock/)

This is interesting as a strategy/tactic.  Back in the day, Episcopal Bishop Spong of New Jersey wrote what to me was a telling article that the Episcopal urban churches there should be saved for the sake of the architecture and stained glass in the church buildings.  I wrote a letter to the editor asking if it might not be more important to save the geographical locations for the sake of the saving Gospel and go out to engage some people to put in those mahogany pews. 

Where the church buildings, no matter their architecture, are worth lots of money and where they cost lots of money to maintain, would not a better strategy be to redeploy those dollars to actual Gospel outreach rather than facility repair?  Maybe so.  Secondly, are there people who are ready to do the work of Gospel outreach?  Are there missionary pastors so inclined?  Or are the pastors more accustomed to facility repair and sacristy maintenance?  At the very least, the questions are being asked and called among the Anglicans. 


I remember reading an article about large, expensive church buildings in South America among the poverty of the people. The argument given for the spending of such money on those structures was that it offered the people a glimpse of the heavenly world. Going into that space brought them into a different world than the one that they lived in. It was a type of foretaste of the world to come.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 02:42:01 PM
I have been in a lot of Lutheran churches in this country. Some of them were very nice. Most of them were quite decent. But none of them would’ve served the purpose of being a foretaste of the feast to come.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 11, 2021, 05:56:12 PM
I have been in a lot of Lutheran churches in this country. Some of them were very nice. Most of them were quite decent. But none of them would’ve served the purpose of being a foretaste of the feast to come.

That's odd.  ALL of them (at least where the Gospel was present) served that purpose for me.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 11, 2021, 06:34:56 PM
In any culture the temples/shrines/churches should be (and generally have been) the most architecturally beautiful and most fully accessible to people of all strata of society. Whether you are a senator or a street sweeper, you sit in the same holy place. Having a beautiful (and therefore likely expensive) sanctuary in the center of the town is one of the greatest gifts to the poor a town can offer its poor-- recognition that the soul of the poor man is human with the same yearnings as any human soul.     
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 06:47:54 PM
How many times, Peter, has any American Lutheran or for that matter, any American protestant Received their reason for Faithful being inside a great Cathedral? I suspect not very many.
Does the yearning of anyone’s soul need a cathedral?
P.S. I love the great cathedrals of Europe. They were then, this is now.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
Pastor Bohler:
That's odd.  ALL of them (at least where the Gospel was present) served that purpose for me.
Me:
Don’t pretend you don’t know what we’re talking about. Or how this line of discussion began. It does not become you.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 11, 2021, 07:14:35 PM
Pastor Bohler:
That's odd.  ALL of them (at least where the Gospel was present) served that purpose for me.
Me:
Don’t pretend you don’t know what we’re talking about. Or how this line of discussion began. It does not become you.
Well that's one way to win an argument. Anyone who disagrees with you is simply pretending to not understand how correct you are. I might try that the next time we discuss.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 11, 2021, 07:34:08 PM
How many times, Peter, has any American Lutheran or for that matter, any American protestant Received their reason for Faithful being inside a great Cathedral? I suspect not very many.
Does the yearning of anyone’s soul need a cathedral?
P.S. I love the great cathedrals of Europe. They were then, this is now.
It doesn't have to be a great cathedral to aspire to be beautiful, and I don't think anyone has suggested that architecture, whether then or now, gave Christians their reason for faithful being. The difference is that older, traditional churches, even tiny ones, used art, light, furnishings, symmetry, and space to evoke a sense of reverence, gravitas and holy presence. If you were thirty years younger and a congregation of a few hundred people asked you to lead them in designing a church, what would you build? I know there are still some 60's retreads who would say they wouldn't want a church building at all but would simply rent any old place for worship that the real work of being the people of God takes places out in the world. But I doubt you are one of them and I certainly am not. I think our communities are starving for beauty and visibly sacred spaces. Take the 100+ year old steeples (and the churches from under them) out of Milwaukee and you have an ugly mess. Let the steeples that are there now crumble, or refuse to build new churches with beautiful architecture, and in a hundred years Milwaukee will simply be all ugliness, like a brutalist East German nightmare.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 11, 2021, 07:45:07 PM
I find it interesting that the conversation has gone down the "you don't need fancy buildings anyway -- get in the mission field” path.  When the reality is, they had the fancy building, and then they ran everyone off, which created the problem they have now where they need to sell the buildings.

The ECUSA has a shade over a million and a half members as of 2019, with around half a million attending each Sunday.  To put that in perspective, that's fewer than the Orthodox churches have.  The ECUSA also owns a ton of vacant and elaborately expensive property.  Their membership is plummeting -- they've lost nearly 20% of their membership in the last decade.  That loss has coincided with the ECUSA jumping on every left wing political platform it can find, which putting two and two together suggests they are literally running off the faithful in an effort to attract people who have no interest in what they offer.

The first step in reaching the lost is not losing the reached.  The ECUSA is doing literally everything wrong.  The reason they own a bunch of elaborate real estate they cannot afford to maintain is not because they are spendthrifts.  They once had the money.  No, it is because they are fools.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 11, 2021, 08:33:15 PM
Pastor Bohler:
That's odd.  ALL of them (at least where the Gospel was present) served that purpose for me.
Me:
Don’t pretend you don’t know what we’re talking about. Or how this line of discussion began. It does not become you.

Oh, I know what we are talking about.  And I am dead serious: every church in which the Gospel is preached/taught/given IS a foretaste of heaven.  Don't you agree? 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
Yes, I agree. But we were talking about how the grandeur of the great cathedrals was the foretaste. And I’m saying that rather few of us got the fortaste through a great cathedral.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 11, 2021, 09:50:32 PM
Yes, I agree. But we were talking about how the grandeur of the great cathedrals was the foretaste. And I’m saying that rather few of us got the fortaste through a great cathedral.
Actually, just you were limiting it to grand cathedrals. Others were just talking about traditional church architecture that aspired to befit holy proceedings with appropriate beauty and a sense of the transcendent.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 11, 2021, 09:51:41 PM
OK
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 13, 2021, 12:36:51 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Mark Brown on July 13, 2021, 01:21:53 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke

Well, you know, they could always try teaching math, grammar, logic, rhetoric.  You know, all those things that can't find a space in the modern public school curriculum, but that parents tend to think are important.  Oh, they majored in Critical Ed studies.  Bummer.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 13, 2021, 01:28:16 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke

Well, you know, they could always try teaching math, grammar, logic, rhetoric.  You know, all those things that can't find a space in the modern public school curriculum, but that parents tend to think are important.  Oh, they majored in Critical Ed studies.  Bummer.

Good point on basic education.  What grabbed me was the animosity aspect - security protection, threats of violence and death.  This in my estimation connects to the initial overtures to the Mid-South district, which were very direct in determining who's behind all this CRT business in the LCMS, and they must be stopped.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Michael Slusser on July 13, 2021, 01:28:57 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke
Very interesting story! Suppression of thought and information is alive in lots of places.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 13, 2021, 01:31:27 PM
Anti-racism efforts in the United States is a mess. It has become a vast conglomeration of ideological positions, efforts, programs, and special interests. It has also become for some a profitable industry. It has also become, for some, an opportunity to promote their own form of racism while portraying it as opposition to racism. Nobody can say with authority what is and is not, much less what should and should not be included in this national effort.

And therein lies a big problem. Everybody has a stake in what we do to combat the racism that is still plaguing our nation. And inevitably, some will push their efforts beyond what is reasonable or just. Thus sincere and reasonable efforts to detect the racist effects of seeming benign laws, rules, and procedures can be denounced along side efforts to paint everything "white" as evil.

Most of the big and obvious racist laws and procedures, Black slavery, Jim Crow, obviously racist voting restrictions are gone. What are left are the more subtle and thus more insidious remnants of them that still need to be discovered and changed.

What doesn't help this is that there are some who are still flatly racist who will use the more outrageous excesses of the Anti-racist movement to urge rejection of the whole effort and divert attention to their own bad action. And there are some who seek to use the drive against the vestiges of racism as an opportunity to totally change American government and society to something more of what they want. Both of these elements are likely small, but they are also dedicated and adept at manipulating others by exaggerating the excesses of the other side to paint the whole of that point of view as dangerous radicals.

Thus some would paint any attempt to raise awareness of the remnants of the old racism as a racist attempt to brand all whites as racists, and thus make any effort to be a danger. And some would paint any resistance to even the Anti-racist more radical and unsupportable claims and programs as White Supremacy in action. Productive dialogue is poisoned and polarization promoted.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 13, 2021, 03:29:30 PM
Here's an interesting story by Bari Weiss:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 13, 2021, 03:43:35 PM
Here's an interesting story by Bari Weiss:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society

I've taken the somewhat heartless approach that this is a public good.  Let them reap what they sow.  When it affects them, they'll have an interest in putting a stop to it.

Just a quick read of the article sounds like an apologetic.  "Why are they canceling me -- I'm one of the GOOD people!"

Pastor Stoffregen, remember when I told you these folks are not your friends?  Bari Weiss already knew this because of what happened to her at the New York Times.  Maron learned it more recently.  In time, you all will.  You can toe the line all you want -- at some point your toe will eek across it and then you will be the enemy too.  It's the natural end of cancel culture.  Be careful who you choose to align yourself with.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 13, 2021, 05:15:57 PM
Here's an interesting story by Bari Weiss:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society (https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society)

I've taken the somewhat heartless approach that this is a public good.  Let them reap what they sow.  When it affects them, they'll have an interest in putting a stop to it.

Just a quick read of the article sounds like an apologetic.  "Why are they canceling me -- I'm one of the GOOD people!"

Pastor Stoffregen, remember when I told you these folks are not your friends?  Bari Weiss already knew this because of what happened to her at the New York Times.  Maron learned it more recently.  In time, you all will.  You can toe the line all you want -- at some point your toe will eek across it and then you will be the enemy too.  It's the natural end of cancel culture.  Be careful who you choose to align yourself with.


Well, folks tried to cancel Jesus. It didn't work. For a couple centuries they tried to cancel his followers. It didn't work. Aligning oneself to Jesus may result in appearing like we're defeated; but we aren't.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: David Garner on July 13, 2021, 05:23:53 PM
Here's an interesting story by Bari Weiss:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society (https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society)

I've taken the somewhat heartless approach that this is a public good.  Let them reap what they sow.  When it affects them, they'll have an interest in putting a stop to it.

Just a quick read of the article sounds like an apologetic.  "Why are they canceling me -- I'm one of the GOOD people!"

Pastor Stoffregen, remember when I told you these folks are not your friends?  Bari Weiss already knew this because of what happened to her at the New York Times.  Maron learned it more recently.  In time, you all will.  You can toe the line all you want -- at some point your toe will eek across it and then you will be the enemy too.  It's the natural end of cancel culture.  Be careful who you choose to align yourself with.


Well, folks tried to cancel Jesus. It didn't work. For a couple centuries they tried to cancel his followers. It didn't work. Aligning oneself to Jesus may result in appearing like we're defeated; but we aren't.

This is astounding. I mean just amazing.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Rob Morris on July 13, 2021, 05:36:50 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke
Very interesting story! Suppression of thought and information is alive in lots of places.

Peace,
Michael

Until quite recently, one of my members was the finance director for the combined three school districts that are the centerpiece of this AOL story. Suffice to say, the storyline that says the superintendent came, was opposed because of CRT, and left for that reason alone is not accurate. It is a meat grinder of a job with a force-fit, no-one-is-ever-happy, solution of taking 2 school districts and “combining” them into three: one for each town’s K-8 schools and a third for the shared regional high school. The superintendent reports to three separate school boards and every budget meeting and vote has to happen in triplicate. If one district throws a wrench, all three go down with it. It was common for my member to be needed at board meetings every single night of the week, plus the day job.

Yes, CRT is a hot topic in that district. Is it the only reason the superintendent left in under a year? Far from it. Just for what it’s worth.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 13, 2021, 06:35:19 PM
Here's an interesting story by Bari Weiss:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society (https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-witch-trial-at-the-legal-aid-society)

I've taken the somewhat heartless approach that this is a public good.  Let them reap what they sow.  When it affects them, they'll have an interest in putting a stop to it.

Just a quick read of the article sounds like an apologetic.  "Why are they canceling me -- I'm one of the GOOD people!"

Pastor Stoffregen, remember when I told you these folks are not your friends?  Bari Weiss already knew this because of what happened to her at the New York Times.  Maron learned it more recently.  In time, you all will.  You can toe the line all you want -- at some point your toe will eek across it and then you will be the enemy too.  It's the natural end of cancel culture.  Be careful who you choose to align yourself with.


Well, folks tried to cancel Jesus. It didn't work. For a couple centuries they tried to cancel his followers. It didn't work. Aligning oneself to Jesus may result in appearing like we're defeated; but we aren't.

This is astounding. I mean just amazing.


Thank you.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 14, 2021, 06:18:17 PM
From newsfeed on what's happening to those involved:  https://www.aol.com/news/growing-animosity-over-critical-race-083200182.html

Dave Benke
Very interesting story! Suppression of thought and information is alive in lots of places.

Peace,
Michael

Until quite recently, one of my members was the finance director for the combined three school districts that are the centerpiece of this AOL story. Suffice to say, the storyline that says the superintendent came, was opposed because of CRT, and left for that reason alone is not accurate. It is a meat grinder of a job with a force-fit, no-one-is-ever-happy, solution of taking 2 school districts and “combining” them into three: one for each town’s K-8 schools and a third for the shared regional high school. The superintendent reports to three separate school boards and every budget meeting and vote has to happen in triplicate. If one district throws a wrench, all three go down with it. It was common for my member to be needed at board meetings every single night of the week, plus the day job.

Yes, CRT is a hot topic in that district. Is it the only reason the superintendent left in under a year? Far from it. Just for what it’s worth.

All politics is local.  I'm on a board now with a woman who survived 21 years as a superintendent of a school district on Long Island, and the wisdom she gained, along with the scars, is very apparent.  When in doubt, follow the money.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 14, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Catching up with Lutherans for Racial Justice on Facebook today (I think they're mostly on Instagram), and noticed that there's a sparkling set of quotes and references to the LCMS and its President's statements on Racism:

After hearing about the faithful racial justice work of so many Lutheran congregations and schools (see yesterday's post), we recall the LCMS President's words, which remind us that repentance and healing begins with Christ's church.
President Rev. Dr. Harrison's Full 2020 Statement: https://tinyurl.com/vyn2b4wu
LCMS Responses to Racism: https://tinyurl.com/5yrry44k
Lutherans for Racial Justice (LRJ) strives to embody the Synod's teaching on racism. Learn more about LRJ: https://lutheransforracialjustice.com/about-us


Dave Benke

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 19, 2021, 04:28:59 AM
An African-American professor at Wheaton College on why Christians must point out and oppose systemic racism. He is shocked at the conservative response when he does so.
“I remain puzzled as to why discussions of racism and injustice stir up so much venom from fellow believers. They do not simply disagree. They are angry. Despite this hysteria, there is simply no theological or historical reason for Christians to hesitate over acknowledging structural racism.
   “When people point out bias or racism in structures (health care, housing, policing, employment practices), they are engaging in the most Christian of practices: naming and resisting sins, personal and collective. A Christian theology of human fallibility leads us to expect structural and personal injustice. It is in the texts we hold dear. So when Christians stand up against racialized oppression, they are not losing the plot; they are discovering an element of Christian faith and practice that has been with us since the beginning.”

The full opinion essay:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/18/opinion/racism-christianity.html

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Benke on July 19, 2021, 07:26:50 AM
An African-American professor at Wheaton College on why Christians must point out and oppose systemic racism. He is shocked at the conservative response when he does so.
“I remain puzzled as to why discussions of racism and injustice stir up so much venom from fellow believers. They do not simply disagree. They are angry. Despite this hysteria, there is simply no theological or historical reason for Christians to hesitate over acknowledging structural racism.
   “When people point out bias or racism in structures (health care, housing, policing, employment practices), they are engaging in the most Christian of practices: naming and resisting sins, personal and collective. A Christian theology of human fallibility leads us to expect structural and personal injustice. It is in the texts we hold dear. So when Christians stand up against racialized oppression, they are not losing the plot; they are discovering an element of Christian faith and practice that has been with us since the beginning.”

The full opinion essay:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/18/opinion/racism-christianity.htm

Broken link shows up on your post, Charles.  Here's a new one:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/18/opinion/racism-christianity.html
It's a helpful connector to the thread topic, when tied to Lutherans for Racial Justice, the LCMS effort that meets stiff resistance from some quarters. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 08:41:37 AM
An African-American professor at Wheaton College on why Christians must point out and oppose systemic racism. He is shocked at the conservative response when he does so.
“I remain puzzled as to why discussions of racism and injustice stir up so much venom from fellow believers. They do not simply disagree. They are angry. Despite this hysteria, there is simply no theological or historical reason for Christians to hesitate over acknowledging structural racism.
   “When people point out bias or racism in structures (health care, housing, policing, employment practices), they are engaging in the most Christian of practices: naming and resisting sins, personal and collective. A Christian theology of human fallibility leads us to expect structural and personal injustice. It is in the texts we hold dear. So when Christians stand up against racialized oppression, they are not losing the plot; they are discovering an element of Christian faith and practice that has been with us since the beginning.”

The full opinion essay:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/18/opinion/racism-christianity.htm

Because CRT is, by definition, racist.

“Dr. Ben Carson: Fighting critical race theory – this is how we stop this blatantly racist ideology”

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/fighting-critical-race-theory-racist-ideology-dr-ben-carson

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 19, 2021, 08:56:38 AM
Fixed the link. Thanks.
Dr. Ben Carson? A credible voice on the theology of racism? Above a Wheaton prof?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 09:11:43 AM
Wheaton prof?

🤣 🤣

I think Dr. Carson’s (a Christian) article, as well as his career, points out that the opinion of the “Wheaton prof” is hardly a Christian viewpoint, that, rather, it’s racist as is CRT.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 19, 2021, 09:49:54 AM
Nobody can reasonably deny that there has been Systemic Racism in American history. Racially based slavery and Jim Crow are two of the most obvious examples. Neither can anyone reasonably deny that some people are still racists. Incidents of anti-Black, anti-Asian, and anti-Semitic violence this past year make that obvious. That subtle Systemic Racism is still present in America seems entirely possible. The contentious question is how prevalent and where it is.


Since Critical Race Theory leaked out of containment in its law school Ivory Tower it has mutated to become in popular usage a generic term often used interchangeably with Systemic Racism. A great many observations, ideas, and programs have come to be referred to as CRT by both supporters and critics. Does CRT really demand that we change how math is being taught so as to get away from the White Supremacist method of teaching that emphasizes getting the,correct answer and showing how one worked the problem to a way of teaching the teaches social justice? Or holding training sessions to teach people that "whiteness" is a social ill and people need to be less "white"?


Race and Racism is still a problem in America. But not everything is a dog whistle for White Supremacy. Neither is opposing some of the excesses perpetuated in the name of CRT and anti-racism necessarily an exercise of White Supremacy.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 19, 2021, 10:21:54 AM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color? 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: John_Hannah on July 19, 2021, 10:27:32 AM
Conservative Lutherans might appreciate Dr. McCaulley's line of thinking.

It is not about being "woke" or progressive or acceptable to certain Americans. It is about sin.


When people point out bias or racism in structures (health care, housing, policing, employment practices), they are engaging in the most Christian of practices: naming and resisting sins, personal and collective. A Christian theology of human fallibility leads us to expect structural and personal injustice. It is in the texts we hold dear. So when Christians stand up against racialized oppression, they are not losing the plot; they are discovering an element of Christian faith and practice that has been with us since the beginning.

Some of remember that Walther warned in Law and Gospel that varnishing over sin is destructive to the Christian.

McCaulley is unapologetic about his Christian faith even if it happens to coincide with other voices/

My religious beliefs will give my arguments a certain tenor. They are a part of who I am; it was the gift my grandparents and parents gave me, their weapon against anti-blackness and despair. Others have trod different paths.

That does not mean that we cannot talk to one another. W.E.B. Du Bois, Frederick Douglass, Fannie Lou Hamer, James Baldwin and Martin Luther King Jr. held a variety of religious views. Nonetheless, they managed to speak to a religiously diverse America. That is what the public square is for. That is the rough and tumble of democracy.

I am a Christian theologian, not a critical race theorist. When I say that, it is not an attempt to avoid censure or to seal these worlds off from each other. There are no respectability politics here. Instead, it is a statement about the shape of my training and my respect for others’ expertise. Black historians, theologians, philosophers and legal scholars disagree about a host of things. There is an entire Black intellectual tradition about the nature and means of Black freedom of which much of America remains blissfully unaware.

Like McCaulley, I remain grateful for my parents and grandparents and the Christian faith they fostered in me. They happened to be white but took no pride in that; "only Christ and him crucified."

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Rob Morris on July 19, 2021, 10:36:35 AM
Wheaton prof?

🤣 🤣

I think Dr. Carson’s (a Christian) article, as well as his career, points out that the opinion of the “Wheaton prof” is hardly a Christian viewpoint, that, rather, it’s racist as is CRT.

Did you read the McCaulley article? Esau McCaulley was a classmate of mine at Gordon-Conwell before I colloquized into the LCMS. His viewpoint, while I disagree with certain aspects, contains much of value for all conservative Christians, of whom he is one. His view is being badly misunderstood and misrepresented if it's being called "hardly a Christian viewpoint". Full-baked CRT is "hardly a Christian viewpoint", but that's not what McCaulley was ever arguing in favor of.

So, did you read the article? Which portions were "hardly Christian"?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 11:04:02 AM
No, I couldn’t access the article, even after the link was fixed. I read the portion that Charles posted.

I find the whole idea of systemic/institutional racism, i.e., “the systems in place that create and maintain racial inequality in nearly every facet of life for people of color” as overblown and not Christian. As Dr. Carson points out, the idea of CRT/systemic racism to be racist in itself and, therefore, un-Christian.

If his only point is that, in discussing the issue, people should stop being mean to each other, i.e., that anger is sinful, then that can be a Christian viewpoint, though not necessarily so.

The laughing was about Charles’ often criticism and even ridicule of conservative “evangelicals” unless, as here, they serve his purpose.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 19, 2021, 11:20:31 AM
Dagnabbit, Pastor Kirchner! I posted the article by a “Christian conservative” with words of praise for this “Christian conservative.”
Yes, I often criticize them, but not always.
When is the last time you or someone of your ilk did anything but demonize and mock progressives?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 12:02:37 PM
Yes, I often criticize them, but not always.

Isn’t that essentially what I wrote?

“The laughing was about Charles’ often criticism and even ridicule of conservative “evangelicals” unless, as here, they serve his purpose.”
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2021, 01:35:07 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Likeness on July 19, 2021, 01:49:23 PM
Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King  had two different approaches to racial injustice
Malcolm X advocated violence &  Dr. Martin Luther King stressed non-violence.

Malcolm X in reality became a Black Muslim who did not believe in racial integration
but demanded Blacks become a separate nation.  Dr. MLK was a Baptist pastor who
preached that we are all members of the human race created by God to love one
another.  He believed in racial integration.

Bottom Line: Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King had completely opposite approaches
to racial justice.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
Could it be that the word "critical" is a problem for conservatives? Going back nearly 50 years, the "critical" tools for Bible study were eschewed by conservatives. Those who used them were often called unChristian or denying the Word of God. We who used them said that they are necessary for properly understanding the message that God is speaking to us through the Bible. Over the years, my discussion with folks who opposed the "critical" tools and methods convinced me that they really don't understand how they are used by most biblical scholars. They create their own definitions of the tools so they can criticize it and demean those who use them.


I see the same thing happening with those who oppose the Critical Race Theory.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2021, 01:50:50 PM
Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King  had two different approaches to racial injustice
Malcolm X advocated violence &  Dr. Martin Luther King stressed non-violence.


Their differing approaches to racial injustice didn't stop them from being murdered by those who opposed them. They weren't silent; so they were silenced.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: mariemeyer on July 19, 2021, 02:27:58 PM
Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King  had two different approaches to racial injustice
Malcolm X advocated violence &  Dr. Martin Luther King stressed non-violence.

Malcolm X in reality became a Black Muslim who did not believe in racial integration
but demanded Blacks become a separate nation.  Dr. MLK was a Baptist pastor who
preached that we are all members of the human race created by God to love one
another.  He believed in racial integration.

Bottom Line: Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King had completely opposite approaches
to racial justice.



Some historians might question the above. True, Malcolm X embraced Islam, but to the best of my knowledge he did not advocate violence. Historians on this Forum may have further in formation about Malcolm X.

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 19, 2021, 03:56:53 PM
Could it be that the word "critical" is a problem for conservatives? Going back nearly 50 years, the "critical" tools for Bible study were eschewed by conservatives. Those who used them were often called unChristian or denying the Word of God. We who used them said that they are necessary for properly understanding the message that God is speaking to us through the Bible. Over the years, my discussion with folks who opposed the "critical" tools and methods convinced me that they really don't understand how they are used by most biblical scholars. They create their own definitions of the tools so they can criticize it and demean those who use them.


I see the same thing happening with those who oppose the Critical Race Theory.
The problem that many of us who opposed the so called "higher criticism" was not the the word "criticism" so much as unquestioning embrace of whatever literary fad then currect (like the dissecting of ancient texts into sources, such as the denial that Homer actually wrote what had been attributed to him) and the profound skepticism that anything taught in the Bible or classic Christian doctrine was true in any but the most symbolic way. The telos of higher criticism seemed to be the various quests for the historical Jesus, which inevitably found that Jesus was nothing like the Jesus found in the Gospels or traditional Christian beliefs (scorned as mere Sunday School faith, perhaps fit for the simple and unsophisticated but not wise scholars), or the project of demythologizing the Bible, i.e. removing all supernatural elements that we modern scientific sophisticates know have no place in reality, or the skeptical "faith" of the Jesus Seminar,  and scholars like John Dominic Crossen and Bart Ehrmann. Sorry, not inclined to go there.


Being critical, however, was itself not necessarily rejected. The era of skepticism of textual criticism had long since passed in conservative LCMS circles by the time I hit college in the 70s. We were expected to learn the canons of textual criticism and use the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Charles Austin on July 19, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
Pastor Fienen, yours is the worst description of higher criticism that I have ever seen.
And you assume the worst about every aspect of it, you compare it with the worst things that you think you have found.
Not helpful.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dave Likeness on July 19, 2021, 04:56:52 PM
Malcolm X was glad when he heard about the assassination of President J.F. Kennedy.
He said that it was a case of "chickens coming home to roost".

In April 1964, Malcolm X gave a speech entitled "The Ballot or the Bullet"
He encouraged Blacks to vote wisely, but stated that if the government
tries to prevent full equality, it might be necessary to take up arms.

Malcolm X advocated Black Supremacy, Black Empowerment, the Separation of
Blacks and Whites, and sharply criticized the civil rights movement led by
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 19, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.

Colin Kaepernick received a lot of 'blow back' specifically because of his act of 'taking a knee' during the National Anthem.  It was interpreted more as much a sign of disrespect for the nation as a protest against police brutality.

You go back in time but neglect to acknowledge the accomplishments of the more contemporary examples I gave.  What about those who grew up and benefited from the gains secured after the time of Malcolm X and MLK?

And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Jim Butler on July 19, 2021, 06:28:21 PM

Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country.

Didn't he get a multi-million dollar deal with Nike along with his own apparel line? Wasn't he also given a slew of awards from different organizations?

https://time.com/5386204/colin-kaepernick-nike-keeps-winning/
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2021, 08:03:24 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.

Colin Kaepernick received a lot of 'blow back' specifically because of his act of 'taking a knee' during the National Anthem.  It was interpreted more as much a sign of disrespect for the nation as a protest against police brutality.


 When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

Quote
You go back in time but neglect to acknowledge the accomplishments of the more contemporary examples I gave.  What about those who grew up and benefited from the gains secured after the time of Malcolm X and MLK?


Like Colin Kaepernick? Or Rodney King? Or George Floyd?

Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?


I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations.


It was mentioned in another discussion that 50 years for the Vatican II reforms is not a long time in church history. What as created back then is still the "new liturgy." It's only been about 60 years since different ethnic Lutherans came together when TALC was created in 1960. It brought together German, Norwegian, and Danish Lutherans into one church body. 1962 brought together Germans, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Icelandic, and Slovak Lutherans in the LCA.


We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?



Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 09:13:58 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.

Colin Kaepernick received a lot of 'blow back' specifically because of his act of 'taking a knee' during the National Anthem.  It was interpreted more as much a sign of disrespect for the nation as a protest against police brutality.


 When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

Quote
You go back in time but neglect to acknowledge the accomplishments of the more contemporary examples I gave.  What about those who grew up and benefited from the gains secured after the time of Malcolm X and MLK?


Like Colin Kaepernick? Or Rodney King? Or George Floyd?

Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?


I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations.


It was mentioned in another discussion that 50 years for the Vatican II reforms is not a long time in church history. What as created back then is still the "new liturgy." It's only been about 60 years since different ethnic Lutherans came together when TALC was created in 1960. It brought together German, Norwegian, and Danish Lutherans into one church body. 1962 brought together Germans, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Icelandic, and Slovak Lutherans in the LCA.


We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

Good grief, Brian! Analogizing kneeling before Jesus and Colin Kaepernick showing disrespect to our flag?!!

Colin Kaepernick took the knee during the national anthem before a match in 2016. He said he could not stand to show pride in the flag of a country that oppressed black people. It was a sign of disrespect.   ::)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2021, 10:07:18 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.

Colin Kaepernick received a lot of 'blow back' specifically because of his act of 'taking a knee' during the National Anthem.  It was interpreted more as much a sign of disrespect for the nation as a protest against police brutality.


 When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

Quote
You go back in time but neglect to acknowledge the accomplishments of the more contemporary examples I gave.  What about those who grew up and benefited from the gains secured after the time of Malcolm X and MLK?


Like Colin Kaepernick? Or Rodney King? Or George Floyd?

Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?


I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations.


It was mentioned in another discussion that 50 years for the Vatican II reforms is not a long time in church history. What as created back then is still the "new liturgy." It's only been about 60 years since different ethnic Lutherans came together when TALC was created in 1960. It brought together German, Norwegian, and Danish Lutherans into one church body. 1962 brought together Germans, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Icelandic, and Slovak Lutherans in the LCA.


We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

Good grief, Brian! Analogizing kneeling before Jesus and Colin Kaepernick showing disrespect to our flag?!!

Colin Kaepernick took the knee during the national anthem before a match in 2016. He said he could not stand to show pride in the flag of a country that oppressed black people. It was a sign of disrespect.   ::)


I don't know about you, but I'm not proud of our country's oppression of Black people; and other people of color.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 10:13:50 PM
CRT is often talked about in the abstract, seemingly as almost a kind accusation and judgment. Likewise with "systemic racism."  I keep waiting for specifics as to how all this is supposed to be 'fixed,' especially in the church.  What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"? And what do we tell people of color who have risen to great heights of achievement, such as Dr. Ben Carson or Gen. Colin Powell or Pres. Barak Obama, or many of the entertainers, business people, sports stars, etc. over the course of so many years and decades?  You were just lucky? The system only works for a select few? How does their example inspire other people of color?


In days past, many of the Blacks who rose to great heights, like Sammy Davis, Jr., and Nat King Cole, had to keep quiet about the racism they faced. Reports I've read about Jackie Robinson is that he was chosen to be the first Black baseball player in the major leagues because he was not only an excellent player, but because he had the temperament to take the abuse that he would receive.


Look what happened to Colin Kaepernick when he took a stand against police brutality, racial injustice, and systemic oppression in our country. The minorities who succeeded, did so by being quiet. The life spans of those who spoke up, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cut short.

Colin Kaepernick received a lot of 'blow back' specifically because of his act of 'taking a knee' during the National Anthem.  It was interpreted more as much a sign of disrespect for the nation as a protest against police brutality.


 When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

Quote
You go back in time but neglect to acknowledge the accomplishments of the more contemporary examples I gave.  What about those who grew up and benefited from the gains secured after the time of Malcolm X and MLK?


Like Colin Kaepernick? Or Rodney King? Or George Floyd?

Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?


I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations.


It was mentioned in another discussion that 50 years for the Vatican II reforms is not a long time in church history. What as created back then is still the "new liturgy." It's only been about 60 years since different ethnic Lutherans came together when TALC was created in 1960. It brought together German, Norwegian, and Danish Lutherans into one church body. 1962 brought together Germans, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Icelandic, and Slovak Lutherans in the LCA.


We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

Good grief, Brian! Analogizing kneeling before Jesus and Colin Kaepernick showing disrespect to our flag?!!

Colin Kaepernick took the knee during the national anthem before a match in 2016. He said he could not stand to show pride in the flag of a country that oppressed black people. It was a sign of disrespect.   ::)

I don't know about you, but I'm not proud of our country's oppression of Black people; and other people of color.

Expected diversion...

I deny the premise.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 19, 2021, 10:15:24 PM
When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

I know that Pr. Kirchner responded to this, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around your comparison.  Do you seriously think that Colin Kaepernick 'took a knee' as an act of worship or respect? Really? It was, as everyone knows, a "knee of protest." Your comparison is waaaaaay off.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 19, 2021, 10:21:07 PM
Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations...

We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

My congregation is predominantly white.  I live in a rural area.  The "European" differences of a previous era have no meaning today. No one talks about it. You can't even tell by the names.  People of color are not prevalent in my area.  So is my church inherently "racist" because we are predominantly white? If we took CRT seriously and believed our church to be "systemically racist," what do you suggest we change?
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on July 19, 2021, 10:23:30 PM
When the Magi came to Jesus and took a knee before the infant (Mt 2:11), was that a sign of disrespect? When a leper knelt before Jesus (Mt 8:2) or the synagogue leader (Mt 9:18), were those signs of disrespect? I'm sure that in every movie I've seen when a new monarch is crowned, the people knelt in both respect and as a sign of subservience to the new ruler. Where did the people get the idea that kneeling was a sign of disrespect? It doesn't come from scriptures or movies.

I know that Pr. Kirchner responded to this, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around your comparison.  Do you seriously think that Colin Kaepernick 'took a knee' as an act of worship or respect? Really? It was, as everyone knows, a "knee of protest." Your comparison is waaaaaay off.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around much that Brian posts.  Yes, A footballer taking a knee is the equivalent of purposely sitting on your butt during the National Anthem. (Brian, they don't have chairs on the sidelines where they're standing.)
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 20, 2021, 01:45:01 AM
Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations...

We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

My congregation is predominantly white.  I live in a rural area.  The "European" differences of a previous era have no meaning today. No one talks about it. You can't even tell by the names.  People of color are not prevalent in my area.  So is my church inherently "racist" because we are predominantly white? If we took CRT seriously and believed our church to be "systemically racist," what do you suggest we change?

I've also served in rural areas. Even though there were few people of color, the comments I heard about Natives indicated racial prejudices. We weren't all that far from the Rosebud Reservation. A friend served near the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming. She ran into racism all the time as she was trying to get Habitat homes built on the reservation. Where I served in Wyoming, they had the largest massacre of Chinese in the U.S. They also had two Roman Catholic parishes: one for the Slovaks, and one for the Italians. The bishop has combined them into one parish - but they aren't about to give up their two buildings. The divisions run deep.

An enlightening event for me was when the old Central District of the ALC held its convention at the Cherokee Nation's Capital in Tahlequah, OK. The nearby Oaks Indian Mission, in Oaks, OK, is a ministry of the ALC/ELCA. I had not heard about the Trail of Tears that brought the Cherokee from their homeland to Oklahoma. Just learning about the history of the Natives in our land is part of CRT.

If your rural congregation is near a reservation and/or if your synod has a Native ministry, take time to visit it and learn.

CRT isn't just about race, but hearing the stories of oppressed people because of gender or sexual orientation or religion, or national origins. I think one could even look at the disabled and what the community is doing to help or hinder their full participation in the community. A speaker at the rehab hospital where I did some work said that 10% of the people in the community are disabled; but we just don't see them because they don't are aren't able to get out.

A friend, a quadriplegic, who had been a patient and now worked there, talked about physical barriers; but that they aren't as bad as the attitudinal barriers.

One of the subtle things I learned in rural Nebraska is that there are differences between farmers and ranchers; and they don't like being called by the wrong title. Many of them also had prejudices against educated folks. They didn't trust any of the "experts" from the University. Generally, they didn't think much of city-folks, either, (which meant people living in Omaha). Although one farmer told me that the closest town to his farm was too big for him. It had a population of 65. 

One of the stated aims of CRT is: "to help students identify and critique the causes of social inequality in their own lives." That certainly could be done in our congregations, even those in rural communities.

Some observations and thoughts I had after visiting some churches and hearing a Native speaker on the Wind River Reservation is the differences in buildings. Their communities tend to be round. Ours tend to be square. They have round sweat lodges; we have square saunas. They tend to sit in a circle (where there is no head or foot, but all are equal). We tend to have rectangular tables where there is a head.

Generally, literate cultures use square/rectangular architecture because we tend to see in straight lines. Oral cultures tend to use circles, because we hear in more of a circular pattern.


I believe that one of the great issues in biblical studies is that the Christians at that time were the oppressed people. They were a minority. They were counter-cultural. They were practicing an illegal religion. They were seen as enemies of the state because they wouldn't worship the Greek/Roman gods and goddesses. They wouldn't worship the emperor as god and lord. We, especially as privileged white folks in our country, read the scriptures from a far different perspective than the first hearers.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Coach-Rev on July 20, 2021, 10:12:14 AM
I just finished THIS book (https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/), and it is well worth the read.  Check your Lutheranism at the door first, but then see the universal aspect of what he says to all mainline churches.

If I ever get it in the mail, I'll start THIS one (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1620-peter-w-wood/1137347205?ean=9781641771245) next.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 20, 2021, 10:47:43 AM
I've read the second book, 1620: A Critical Response to the 1619 Project on Kindle. I found it to be a good read. It does not deny that racism has been a part of American history, but rather fights back against the bad and distorted history in the 1619 Project.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 20, 2021, 11:52:03 AM
Quote
And, to another point of my post: What exactly does a church or community look like where we have supposedly moved beyond the racism that is still so deeply embedded in our current "system"?

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't look like most of our congregations that are all white. For the most part, we don't know what it would look like in our Lutheran congregations because it hasn't yet happened. We have tended to have our white congregations, and occasionally, we are developed Black Lutheran congregations. We visited one a few times when we lived in Denver. (It had a white pastor, a friend; but most of the members were black.) As the neighborhood changed, it became a Hispanic Lutheran congregation; but it no longer exists. A friend was the pastor of a Black Lutheran mission congregation in Kansas City. During the week the building was a dance studio. It became a worship space on Sunday. It has also closed.


There was recently a post on Facebook about a pastor who came to.a Lutheran congregation told that "his church was down the street." That usher didn't know that he was the guest preacher that Sunday. That got a talkin' to. For the most part, we have not created multi-cultural congregations...

We Lutherans had difficulties coming together as white, Northern European, Lutheran Christians. Is it any wonder we have difficulties reaching out  and bringing in people who aren't from northern European cultures?

My congregation is predominantly white.  I live in a rural area.  The "European" differences of a previous era have no meaning today. No one talks about it. You can't even tell by the names.  People of color are not prevalent in my area.  So is my church inherently "racist" because we are predominantly white? If we took CRT seriously and believed our church to be "systemically racist," what do you suggest we change?

I've also served in rural areas. Even though there were few people of color, the comments I heard about Natives indicated racial prejudices. We weren't all that far from the Rosebud Reservation. A friend served near the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming. She ran into racism all the time as she was trying to get Habitat homes built on the reservation. Where I served in Wyoming, they had the largest massacre of Chinese in the U.S. They also had two Roman Catholic parishes: one for the Slovaks, and one for the Italians. The bishop has combined them into one parish - but they aren't about to give up their two buildings. The divisions run deep.

An enlightening event for me was when the old Central District of the ALC held its convention at the Cherokee Nation's Capital in Tahlequah, OK. The nearby Oaks Indian Mission, in Oaks, OK, is a ministry of the ALC/ELCA. I had not heard about the Trail of Tears that brought the Cherokee from their homeland to Oklahoma. Just learning about the history of the Natives in our land is part of CRT.

If your rural congregation is near a reservation and/or if your synod has a Native ministry, take time to visit it and learn.

CRT isn't just about race, but hearing the stories of oppressed people because of gender or sexual orientation or religion, or national origins. I think one could even look at the disabled and what the community is doing to help or hinder their full participation in the community. A speaker at the rehab hospital where I did some work said that 10% of the people in the community are disabled; but we just don't see them because they don't are aren't able to get out.

A friend, a quadriplegic, who had been a patient and now worked there, talked about physical barriers; but that they aren't as bad as the attitudinal barriers.

One of the subtle things I learned in rural Nebraska is that there are differences between farmers and ranchers; and they don't like being called by the wrong title. Many of them also had prejudices against educated folks. They didn't trust any of the "experts" from the University. Generally, they didn't think much of city-folks, either, (which meant people living in Omaha). Although one farmer told me that the closest town to his farm was too big for him. It had a population of 65. 

One of the stated aims of CRT is: "to help students identify and critique the causes of social inequality in their own lives." That certainly could be done in our congregations, even those in rural communities.

Some observations and thoughts I had after visiting some churches and hearing a Native speaker on the Wind River Reservation is the differences in buildings. Their communities tend to be round. Ours tend to be square. They have round sweat lodges; we have square saunas. They tend to sit in a circle (where there is no head or foot, but all are equal). We tend to have rectangular tables where there is a head.

Generally, literate cultures use square/rectangular architecture because we tend to see in straight lines. Oral cultures tend to use circles, because we hear in more of a circular pattern.


I believe that one of the great issues in biblical studies is that the Christians at that time were the oppressed people. They were a minority. They were counter-cultural. They were practicing an illegal religion. They were seen as enemies of the state because they wouldn't worship the Greek/Roman gods and goddesses. They wouldn't worship the emperor as god and lord. We, especially as privileged white folks in our country, read the scriptures from a far different perspective than the first hearers.

My church is within about 5 miles of the Menominee Indian Reservation. Lutheran outreach in this general area (which also includes the Stockbridge-Munsee tribal area) goes back quite a few years. I am not sure of the current status of this outreach at the moment. There is also a Catholic presence there, as well as other Christians. However, the Native American Church and other Native American religious practices are also part of the community. 

To date I don't know of any Native Americans that have become part of my congregation. Demographically, even though we are geographically close, the county in which my congregation exists is only .54% Native American.   

I don't consider my congregation "racist" simply for its lack of diversity.  It is a matter of demographics, not racial prejudism. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Steven W Bohler on July 20, 2021, 12:13:16 PM
Rev. Stoffregen,

Above you wrote about farmers/ranchers being prejudiced against “educated” people.  I have served in farming areas all of my ministry.  And virtually all the farmers in those places had at least some post-high school education.  I would guess close to, if not an actual, majority have college degrees.  Farming is big business, involving knowledge of chemistry, botany, zoology, economics, meteorology, mechanics, and more.  It is also extremely practical.  Perhaps the antipathy you described was not towards the education of those “experts” but rather their lack of farming experience and practical knowledge. 
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: John_Hannah on July 20, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
My church is within about 5 miles of the Menominee Indian Reservation. Lutheran outreach in this general area (which also includes the Stockbridge-Munsee tribal area) goes back quite a few years. I am not sure of the current status of this outreach at the moment. There is also a Catholic presence there, as well as other Christians. However, the Native American Church and other Native American religious practices are also part of the community. 

To date I don't know of any Native Americans that have become part of my congregation. Demographically, even though we are geographically close, the county in which my congregation exists is only .54% Native American.   

I don't consider my congregation "racist" simply for its lack of diversity.  It is a matter of demographics, not racial prejudism.

My father in law was the last resident pastor (1942-1952) to three congregations of the Stockbridge-Munsee (Mohichan) tribe. One of those was closed long ago. The original one was hanging by a thread the last time I visited there about three year ago. A third in Bowler seems to more or less flourish; it joined the AELC (ELCA now) long ago. The mission was begun by Presbyterians and included a school with a church. When they abandoned it in the early 1900s, the Wisconsin District accepted the invitation to come in.

My wife and her siblings all attended the one room school with members of the tribe. The Chief at the time had attend the federal school in Carlisle, PA with Jim Thorpe. His daughter was serving in the Navy at Pearl Harbor and died in the attack.

I do not believe that there is any Lutheran presence among the Menominee. I have driven past the large Roman Catholic Church on the reservation.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 20, 2021, 12:18:27 PM
My church is within about 5 miles of the Menominee Indian Reservation. Lutheran outreach in this general area (which also includes the Stockbridge-Munsee tribal area) goes back quite a few years. I am not sure of the current status of this outreach at the moment. There is also a Catholic presence there, as well as other Christians. However, the Native American Church and other Native American religious practices are also part of the community. 

To date I don't know of any Native Americans that have become part of my congregation. Demographically, even though we are geographically close, the county in which my congregation exists is only .54% Native American.   

I don't consider my congregation "racist" simply for its lack of diversity.  It is a matter of demographics, not racial prejudism.

My father in law was the last resident pastor (1942-1952) to three congregations of the Stockbridge-Munsee (Mohichan) tribe. One of those was closed long ago. The original one was hanging by a thread the last time I visited there about three year ago. A third in Bowler seems to more or less flourish; it joined the AELC (ELCA now) long ago. The mission was begun by Presbyterians and included a school with a church. When they abandoned it in the early 1900s, the Wisconsin District accepted the invitation to come in.

My wife and her siblings all attended the one room school with members of the tribe. The Chief at the time had attend the federal school in Carlisle, PA with Jim Thorpe. His daughter was serving in the Navy at Pearl Harbor and died in the attack.

I do not believe that there is any Lutheran presence among the Menominee. I have driven past the large Roman Catholic Church on the reservation.

Peace, JOHN

Thank you!  Your are far more familiar with the ministry in this area.  I appreciate the update.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 20, 2021, 01:14:09 PM
My church is within about 5 miles of the Menominee Indian Reservation. Lutheran outreach in this general area (which also includes the Stockbridge-Munsee tribal area) goes back quite a few years. I am not sure of the current status of this outreach at the moment. There is also a Catholic presence there, as well as other Christians. However, the Native American Church and other Native American religious practices are also part of the community. 

To date I don't know of any Native Americans that have become part of my congregation. Demographically, even though we are geographically close, the county in which my congregation exists is only .54% Native American.   

I don't consider my congregation "racist" simply for its lack of diversity.  It is a matter of demographics, not racial prejudism.


I don't think CRT is about getting more diverse people as members in our congregations. It's having our members learn from the experiences of those other people. How well do your members know the history of the Natives? Are they willing to look at the history of the area from the perspective of the first residents, rather than those who came from Europe? I think it's about learning from the "other" and respecting what they have to teach us. It's recognizing that our way (white, European-cultured, protestant) is not the only way of seeing the world.

Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: pearson on July 20, 2021, 01:21:15 PM

I just finished THIS book (https://www.voddiebaucham.org/fault-lines/), and it is well worth the read.  Check your Lutheranism at the door first, but then see the universal aspect of what he says to all mainline churches.

If I ever get it in the mail, I'll start THIS one (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1620-peter-w-wood/1137347205?ean=9781641771245) next.


And after you get done with that one, you may want to take a look at Jonathan Rauch's The Constitution of Knowledge.  How (and where) do people get whatever they consider to be "knowledge" -- the genuine article?  Non-academic, and therefore, insightful stuff.

Tom Pearson
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Dan Fienen on July 20, 2021, 01:39:29 PM
Rev. Stoffregen,

Above you wrote about farmers/ranchers being prejudiced against “educated” people.  I have served in farming areas all of my ministry.  And virtually all the farmers in those places had at least some post-high school education.  I would guess close to, if not an actual, majority have college degrees.  Farming is big business, involving knowledge of chemistry, botany, zoology, economics, meteorology, mechanics, and more.  It is also extremely practical.  Perhaps the antipathy you described was not towards the education of those “experts” but rather their lack of farming experience and practical knowledge.
My observation from the decade I ministered in rural Nebraska was that there are no dumb farmers. As Steven pointed out, farming is a technical and sophisticated business. It also general has thin profit margins. The dumb farmers went out business long ago.
Title: Re: Mid-South District of the LCMS rejects Critical Race Theory (CRT)
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 20, 2021, 04:28:31 PM
Rev. Stoffregen,

Above you wrote about farmers/ranchers being prejudiced against “educated” people.  I have served in farming areas all of my ministry.  And virtually all the farmers in those places had at least some post-high school education.  I would guess close to, if not an actual, majority have college degrees.  Farming is big business, involving knowledge of chemistry, botany, zoology, economics, meteorology, mechanics, and more.  It is also extremely practical.  Perhaps the antipathy you described was not towards the education of those “experts” but rather their lack of farming experience and practical knowledge.
My observation from the decade I ministered in rural Nebraska was that there are no dumb farmers. As Steven pointed out, farming is a technical and sophisticated business. It also general has thin profit margins. The dumb farmers went out business long ago.


I put "educated" in quotes. Generally, it referred to the professors from the university who hadn't farmed/ranched in years (if ever) who thought they were the experts in those professions. There are times, as one rancher illustrated, when a professor didn't know what he's talking about. The rancher and his father, had been doing something for years that the professor said couldn't be done.