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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Daniel Lee Gard on April 07, 2021, 06:24:59 PM

Title: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on April 07, 2021, 06:24:59 PM
I am relieved to now be 2 weeks past my second Pfizer shot. As a high risk individual, I have been essentially a hermit for over a year. Every Monday I have had the privilege of celebrating the Eucharist with other high risk folks in our parish. But on Easter I was able to attend the Sunday morning service for the first time. I will continue to serve my Monday morning people as long as the smaller gathering is needed.

I am curious if the Forum participants have had the vaccine and why you did or did not. Also, what is your sense of how the people you serve have approached the issue of getting the vaccine. Any insights?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Weedon on April 07, 2021, 06:41:34 PM
Hi, Daniel. My wife and I both have had the vaccine. We did so mostly to ease the angst of those who are worried about catching the virus in our parish and truthfully also in our family; my wife waffled right up to the last moment as to whether she wanted to get it. We figured with a trip to Mexico in the offing, it might make life easier, so we got it. We’re by no means anti-vax. But we don’t take every vaccine that comes along. Never have gotten the flu shot since a nasty experience with it over a decade ago. Never had our kids get that hpv vaccine. And so on. We pick and choose and weigh. So yeah, we got it for the peace of mind that it could give those who worry about it.

Under discussed in the whole area of COVID 19 is the disproportionate way it has affected metabolically compromised individuals and how those personal choices about the food you choose to eat, the sleep you get, the sunshine you get can all help minimize the impact of a bout of the wretched disease. There is more than one silver bullet to use on this sucker.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: D. Engebretson on April 07, 2021, 08:48:42 PM
I received my first Pfizer vaccine shot in late January and the follow up one on Feb. 12. Because of my role as a first responder (firefighter), I was able to get the vaccine in the initial distribution schedule in my state.  For me there was no question about receiving it.  I had dodged this virus left and right throughout the fall and winter, with close calls, especially, in dealing with the dying, not to mention the ongoing risk of responding to fire/accident calls where wearing a mask was not possible and close contact with fellow first responders was ongoing.  One of my strongest motivations was the ability to gain access to my long quarantined shut-ins in area care facilities.  When COVID cases spiked in the fall in my area, they locked down tight and I was unable to gain any access at all.  Since such elderly people are often very hard of hearing and sometime afflicted with dementia I realized that I would need to minister to them face-to-face. I actually tried one time to call a shut-in, only to have 80% of the call essentially unproductive. My vaccine, in fact, did gain me access and even the right to take off my mask so that the elderly resident could hear me.  I had no reactions when I received the shot, and have had none since.  I would have received the shot earlier, anyway, since I am also 'high risk' as a diabetic who has a history of upper respiratory issues.  I did not want to risk hospitalization and potential time on a respirator.

As for the people I serve I think that openness to getting the vaccine has been pretty high, especially among the older crowd eager to get out and reconnect.  I was surprised by a couple of members who serve in the healthcare industry who were resistant, and I understand that they are not an exception. 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on April 07, 2021, 08:59:37 PM
I posted this some time ago on one of the other threads:

I was very fortunate to have been able to receive the vaccine in January, thanks to an overabundance of supply at one of our larger health care provider networks and a higher than anticipated refusal rate among its employees.    Rather than have the doses go to waste, they were made available to first responders even though "our turn" wasn't to be for several weeks later.

There was no choice of serum.  Moderna was what they had:  Take it or leave it.

The first eight hours I felt great.  Based on many years of experience in receiving the seasonal flu vaccine I went home and did my weight training regimen.  As the former President said about his stay at Walter Reed "I felt like Superman."

And then the ninth hour arrived. 

I began having difficulty raising my injection arm.  Then the headaches began.   And deep chills.  "The hangover from Hell"

And a complete loss of appetite.  Even thinking about food was nearly nauseating.  That continued from the ninth hour until around the thirtith hour when I was able to force down some rice.

Around that time the chills and headaches subsided only to be replaced by hot flashes...which continued until about the thirty-sixth hour.   Then life returned to normal.

Many of the first responders who were vaccinated at the same time experienced similar symptoms.  The most severe symptoms were with those who had had COVID or strong exposure.  Since my wife had been hospitalized with COVID over Christmas I definitely had been exposed, even though I purportedly tested negative at the time.

Friends in the health care industry advised me to take 500mg Tylenol a few hours  prior to the second dose and for about 24-36 hours afterward to mitigate such reactions.  It worked.  There would be fleeting headaches (gone in 10-15 seconds) and similar fleeting chills and nausea.

Bottom line:  For clergy, best to schedule the injection on a Monday or Tuesday to allow maximum time of recuperation before Sunday.

+ + +

Reaction among others:  For the first month or so I said little about having received the vaccine because there was a lot of "vaccine envy" due to gross incompetence by the PA Department of Health in planning for distribution.  Now that the vaccine is more widely available folks are comforted to know that I have received it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion
Post by: Michael Slusser on April 07, 2021, 09:44:25 PM
My doctor's office called me in early February and set an appointment for 2/4/2021 at one of their Urgent Care facilities; they then set me up for #2 shot (Pfizer) for 2/25/21. Less than 30 minutes each time. I wish that all of you could have as smooth, reaction-free, vaccination.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: GalRevRedux on April 07, 2021, 10:48:16 PM
I had two doses of Moderna, 1/26 and 2/23. Partly for self- protection and partly to help the cause of stopping the spread. I am grateful to have been able to receive it.

Donna
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 07, 2021, 11:14:12 PM
Beloved Spouse and I got the Moderna vaccine in January/February. So have 98 percent of the people in our facility, the two percent advised by their doctors about allergies.
I have several words for people who refuse to get the vaccines. They are words that cannot be printed here.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 08, 2021, 12:02:58 AM
Beloved Spouse and I got the Moderna vaccine in January/February. So have 98 percent of the people in our facility, the two percent advised by their doctors about allergies.
I have several words for people who refuse to get the vaccines. They are words that cannot be printed here.
So judgemental. One of my shut ins was seriously considering not getting vaccinated. She goes out very little and in the past has had adverse reactions to vaccines. Would use your unprintable words for her? It's her body, shouldn't she have some say over what is done with it? Shouldn't she be allowed choice?


Turns out she consulted her doctor who strongly recommended vaccination, so she's setting up appointments for the shots anyway.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on April 08, 2021, 01:56:51 AM
I started seeking the shots back in early January mostly to get one for my 91-year-old mother. Scheduling mine was easy through mychart on the internet. My wife didn't have an account and I didn't know my mothers. After finally getting through on the phone, I spent about 40 minutes, mostly waiting, but got them scheduled, too, on Jan. 30. They let us know (through the internet) when doses were ready to schedule the second shot which we had on Mar. 4. We received the Moderna. My wife and i had some chills for about 30 minutes a few hours after the second shot. One son has had his first shot. Our other son isn't yet eligible in his state, but plans to get it as soon as possible. We are all planning to get together next August for our 50th wedding anniversary. We want to be safe.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: John_Hannah on April 08, 2021, 06:33:52 AM
I started checking the city's web site as soon as I heard that coverage was expanding to seniors. Apparently very few knew that appointments were opening up. I got an appointment in two days (12 Jan) only 10 blocks from home. I was finished 5 minutes before my official appointment time. The next morning I felt a slight "pin jab" in my shoulder as I scrubbed in the shower where the needle had been. No other ill effects. It was Moderna so I got the next on 9 Feb. By then the line was much longer but it was still run very efficiently. I haven't met anyone resistant but only those who can't wait until they can get it and feel safe.

Thanks be to God for his creation which allows advance developments through science and medicine. Monday I had a knee replacement. It is painful now but getting better everyday. I wait in hope that soon I will soon be able to walk normally. It would have not been possible 100 ears ago.

Crippled but improving. Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: David Garner on April 08, 2021, 07:39:29 AM
Beloved Spouse and I got the Moderna vaccine in January/February. So have 98 percent of the people in our facility, the two percent advised by their doctors about allergies.
I have several words for people who refuse to get the vaccines. They are words that cannot be printed here.
So judgemental. One of my shut ins was seriously considering not getting vaccinated. She goes out very little and in the past has had adverse reactions to vaccines. Would use your unprintable words for her? It's her body, shouldn't she have some say over what is done with it? Shouldn't she be allowed choice?

We need more information.  Would she like to kill her offspring?

I'm set to get my first dose of Moderna today.  My wife and oldest daughter are currently being hounded by me to get theirs (they hardly get out at all, so it's a little less of an issue for them, but I am of the opinion that getting everyone vaccinated as quickly as possible is the best thing we can do to stop mutations, so I'm pushing the issue).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dave Benke on April 08, 2021, 08:30:26 AM
My wife and I took an upgrade from our scheduled time which would have been last week upon getting a link from a local public official, have had both Pfizer doses without terrible side effects; along with Thomas I would advise going early in the week for the shot if you're an active priest/pastor.  I took a Sunday off of preaching having received shot two on a Saturday and it was the right decision - I celebrated the Eucharist but one of our vicars took the pulpit.  I was just a tad (more?) off the beam.

As stated elsewhere we have an active program of promoting the vaccine in the congregation during announcement time each week.  We have lost way too many people in the congregation and among its family members to this virus.  And we are also seeing the "long haul" issues afflict folks for months afterward, which seems like the virus piling on even after it's left the body.  We are a fully masked and temperature controlled worshiping group, but we do sing in masks.  I believe by being very up front about promoting the vaccination among the membership we have gotten a more complete roster of folks to take the shot in a mostly black and brown congregation.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: JEdwards on April 08, 2021, 08:41:24 AM
I am of the opinion that getting everyone vaccinated as quickly as possible is the best thing we can do to stop mutations, so I'm pushing the issue
Thank you.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 08, 2021, 08:41:46 AM
I received my Moderna vaccine through the county sheriff's office in February/March and am not in full vax mode. My wife took one of our homebound members and was also able to get hers under the Massachusetts "ride along" program. She will get her second shot on April 17; I don't expect to see her in church the next day.

I've encouraged our members to be vaccinated as soon as possible. I believe everyone 16 and over will be eligible in Massachusetts beginning April 19.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on April 08, 2021, 10:14:01 AM
MJ and I had our 2nd Moderna last Thursday and Friday, as soon as it became available to us.  Got through the Good Friday service with no problem. Woke up Saturday morning feeling like I'd been hit by a truck! Achy, weak, racing heartbeat while at church getting ready for the Easter service. Slept off and on all afternoon. MJ's birthday on Sunday, so I dragged my carcass out for a quiet dinner Sat night. Woke up Sunday morning for the Easter sunrise service feeling like new!

My parents are 95 and 96. Absolutely no physical reactions to either dose! So, effects are different for various individuals.

We had a substantial congregational contingent that refused to wear masks and refused to comply with the State mandate, so they stopped coming to services. One officer on the council insisted on complaining about the violation of his constitutional rights! We tried to explain that we wear masks for the sake of our neighbor, particularly the widows who were frightened that some refused to mask. Stiff-necked people in every congregation, I guess.  😟
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peterm on April 08, 2021, 10:38:19 AM
I received my second shot this past Monday (the 5th) Moderna. 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dave Benke on April 08, 2021, 10:43:15 AM
MJ and I had our 2nd Moderna last Thursday and Friday, as soon as it became available to us.  Got through the Good Friday service with no problem. Woke up Saturday morning feeling like I'd been hit by a truck! Achy, weak, racing heartbeat while at church getting ready for the Easter service. Slept off and on all afternoon. MJ's birthday on Sunday, so I dragged my carcass out for a quiet dinner Sat night. Woke up Sunday morning for the Easter sunrise service feeling like new!

My parents are 95 and 96. Absolutely no physical reactions to either dose! So, effects are different for various individuals.

We had a substantial congregational contingent that refused to wear masks and refused to comply with the State mandate, so they stopped coming to services. One officer on the council insisted on complaining about the violation of his constitutional rights! We tried to explain that we wear masks for the sake of our neighbor, particularly the widows who were frightened that some refused to mask. Stiff-necked people in every congregation, I guess.  😟

One thing we noticed, and I read something about it, was that those who had already been tested positive, had the virus, or in retrospect thought they might have had it - which means they had antibodies in their system - were whacked with more substantial reactions.  One of our leaders was hit so hard - and she had the virus some months before - that she cleaned herself up, sat on the floor and prepared to be found dead but ready for heaven when her family members returned to the house.  Instead she fell asleep there on the floor for three hours, woke in a better place here on earth, and recovered. 

Stiff necks can be a side effect.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: David Garner on April 08, 2021, 10:57:01 AM
I received my second shot this past Monday (the 5th) Moderna.

I'm getting the Moderna today -- have you had any side effects?

Keeping in mind Pastor Kirchner's admonition that it affects everyone differently, I'm collecting as much anecdotal data as I can.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: James S. Rustad on April 08, 2021, 10:57:15 AM
My wife and I received the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine on Saturday, March 28.  Sunday afternoon I started feeling tired.  Monday I felt wiped out but started working - that lasted a couple hours before the headache started.  I crawled back into bed and slept the rest of the day.  Tuesday I felt some better and worked most of the day.  In the afternoon I took a nap.  Wednesday I was much better - no headache, still somewhat tired but not the wiped out feeling from Monday.

My wife?  No symptoms at all.  So what happens definitely varies from person to person.

My 23-year-old son gets his first dose this Saturday.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on April 08, 2021, 11:09:57 AM
MJ and I had our 2nd Moderna last Thursday and Friday, as soon as it became available to us.  Got through the Good Friday service with no problem. Woke up Saturday morning feeling like I'd been hit by a truck! Achy, weak, racing heartbeat while at church getting ready for the Easter service. Slept off and on all afternoon. MJ's birthday on Sunday, so I dragged my carcass out for a quiet dinner Sat night. Woke up Sunday morning for the Easter sunrise service feeling like new!

My parents are 95 and 96. Absolutely no physical reactions to either dose! So, effects are different for various individuals.

We had a substantial congregational contingent that refused to wear masks and refused to comply with the State mandate, so they stopped coming to services. One officer on the council insisted on complaining about the violation of his constitutional rights! We tried to explain that we wear masks for the sake of our neighbor, particularly the widows who were frightened that some refused to mask. Stiff-necked people in every congregation, I guess.  😟

One thing we noticed, and I read something about it, was that those who had already been tested positive, had the virus, or in retrospect thought they might have had it - which means they had antibodies in their system - were whacked with more substantial reactions.  One of our leaders was hit so hard - and she had the virus some months before - that she cleaned herself up, sat on the floor and prepared to be found dead but ready for heaven when her family members returned to the house.  Instead she fell asleep there on the floor for three hours, woke in a better place here on earth, and recovered. 

Stiff necks can be a side effect.

Dave Benke

Just might be something to that, Dave. MJ had her 2nd on Thursday and was similarly wiped out on Friday. And she strongly believes that we had COVID when we returned from a Caribbean cruise in late winter of 2020 and got sick. I don't recall losing my sense of taste and smell (Her brother got COVID and said that you definitely will notice a loss of taste and smell, that's it's really weird), but had a lot of the other symptoms.

Obviously, complete speculation.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peterm on April 08, 2021, 11:15:52 AM
I received my second shot this past Monday (the 5th) Moderna.

I'm getting the Moderna today -- have you had any side effects?

Keeping in mind Pastor Kirchner's admonition that it affects everyone differently, I'm collecting as much anecdotal data as I can.
I didn't have any from the first shot in March other than a sore arm which hurt no more than the average tetnus shot.  The day after my second shot (which was Tuesday)  my legs ached so bad I could hardly walk and I was tired but I'm not sure how much of that was vaccine and how much was the 6 holy week services I did.  Ibuprofin cleared things up nicesy, as did a good nap.  Nurses in my congregation recommended drinking plenty of water after the shot and for the next couple days after.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: MaddogLutheran on April 08, 2021, 11:21:39 AM
One thing we noticed, and I read something about it, was that those who had already been tested positive, had the virus, or in retrospect thought they might have had it - which means they had antibodies in their system - were whacked with more substantial reactions. 
Yes, this is quite possibly true.  Only thing I would add, maybe not just antibodies from COVID19 but also a similar enough coronavirus.  That's been one of the theories about the severity variability, that people less effected might have been exposed to a similar virus previously.

I managed to find a vaccine appointment next week at a grocery store pharmacy, not sure which one it will be.  A friend who clued me in that this chain had the vaccine (despite not being currently listed as a provider on the Pennsylvania Department of Health website/database, go figure), got the J&J vaccine yesterday, but their info advertises all 3.  I took a chance and saw an appointment an hour away, close to where I grew up.

While I only marginally qualify on several categories (1-B/C), as Pennsylvania is about open up to all residents (having lagged most states, probably because our population skews older) and as my congregation is resuming in-person services and needs people willing to usher, I feel justified for the needs of the many, not just mine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Robert Johnson on April 08, 2021, 12:26:22 PM


I'm getting the Moderna today -- have you had any side effects?


My wife and I both got Moderna. First shot: slightly sore arm, both of us. (I hear that if you already have had Covid you'll get a stronger reaction to the first shot.)

Second shot: day of shot, sore arm. Day after: bigger reactions. I was slightly out of it all that day. My wife felt worse, and had chills that wouldn't stop for a while.

Those are our data points, but reactions are all over the map
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Richard Johnson on April 09, 2021, 12:00:03 AM
We had our second Pfizer about a month ago. No serious side effects with either shot; just a little fatigue the day after the second one.

We got them because (1) we think it is the wisest health decision for ourselves; (2) we think it is the wisest decision for our community; (3) we want to be able to see our children and grandchildren; (4) we are about to move to New York, and we didn't want to make a transcontinental drive unprotected.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: David Garner on April 09, 2021, 06:22:51 AM
First shot of Moderna down. My arm is a little sore (like a tetanus booster) but otherwise no ill effects.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 09, 2021, 10:16:09 AM
I have the vaccine. I don’t plan to carry a vaccine passport and will certainly go out of my way to avoid any place that asks for one, though depending on how heavy handed the passport cheerleaders want to get it could be unavoidable. The whole idea is worse than merely distasteful.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 11:00:17 AM
Do you avoid public schools if children there are required to be vaccinated? For things like diphtheria and typhoid and the other stuff the children are vaccinated for? Is that distasteful?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 09, 2021, 11:52:43 AM
Do you avoid public schools if children there are required to be vaccinated? For things like diphtheria and typhoid and the other stuff the children are vaccinated for? Is that distasteful?
I find the idea of the government treating the citizenry the way public school administrators treat young children to be distasteful, yes.

In England they used to forcibly shave the heads of children in slum districts in order to combat the spread of lice. I'm not pro-lice, but I find the idea of mandatory haircuts distasteful, too.

If you can't see the possibilities for abuse from requiring approved vaccination "passports" and where such things inevitably lead, you are an autocrat's dream subject.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 12:25:16 PM
The “possibility“ for abuse exists in virtually every human activity, including some of those civic actions which you might prefer. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take those actions, even if we watch out for signs of abuse.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: RDPreus on April 09, 2021, 12:49:03 PM
If I've already had the virus do I need to be vaccinated against it?  I've heard from several sources that if you've already had it and get vaccinated the side effects can be quite serious.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on April 09, 2021, 01:11:36 PM
The “possibility“ for abuse exists in virtually every human activity, including some of those civic actions which you might prefer. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take those actions, even if we watch out for signs of abuse.


It seems to me that the first abuse was when Eve and Adam took matters into their own hands and did whatever they wanted without giving any thought to God or the world God had given them. Selfish individualism as at the heart of human sinfulness.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on April 09, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
If I've already had the virus do I need to be vaccinated against it?  I've heard from several sources that if you've already had it and get vaccinated the side effects can be quite serious.


But you'll get a little card that may be your passport to travel and events. :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 01:26:34 PM
For heaven’s sake! Pastor Preus, we do not make decisions like this based on something that we “heard.” We read what the experts are saying, what the scientists are advising, what the medical profession is suggesting that we do. You don’t even know, I think, whether you’ve already had the virus. Talk to doctors. Don’t mess around with something you have “heard.”
Yes, there can be uncomfortable side effects. Big deal. Sometimes medicine hurts.  The side effects cannot kill you, they are the result of your body setting itself up to protect you against the virus. The virus can kill you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: RDPreus on April 09, 2021, 01:32:08 PM
I'm pretty sure I've had it.  Doesn't that make me immune? 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 09, 2021, 01:32:39 PM
If I've already had the virus do I need to be vaccinated against it?  I've heard from several sources that if you've already had it and get vaccinated the side effects can be quite serious.
Consult with your doctor in this situation. He may need to consult experts in order to give you sound advice.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: RDPreus on April 09, 2021, 01:33:39 PM
If I've already had the virus do I need to be vaccinated against it?  I've heard from several sources that if you've already had it and get vaccinated the side effects can be quite serious.
Consult with your doctor in this situation. He may need to consult experts in order to give you sound advice.

Thanks, Dan.  That's good advice.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: James_Gale on April 09, 2021, 01:37:08 PM
First shot of Moderna down. My arm is a little sore (like a tetanus booster) but otherwise no ill effects.


I've had both Moderna doses.  The first was no different from a flu shot.  My arm was sore for a couple days, but the pain was very minor.  It did not inhibit my range of motion or interfere with my sleep.  (For some context, my arm was much more sore after the shingles vaccine.)


The second dose caused me about the same degree of pain as the first.  My sleep was a little troubled the first night, but not from arm pain.  I had weirdly unsettling dreams (nothing tawdry and nothing I'd call a nightmare, just weird).  The next day, my head was a little cloudy.  No fever.  No aches.  By the second day, I was absolutely fine.


Of course, your experience might be very different.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Eugene Crowner on April 09, 2021, 01:41:00 PM
Given my medical history, two more needles is the last thing I need.  On the other hand, only two more needles would never even be noticed.

In this case, two needles never being noticed prevailed, I had no problems with the vaccine whatsoever.

Eugene Crowner
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: JEdwards on April 09, 2021, 01:45:38 PM
If I've already had the virus do I need to be vaccinated against it?  I've heard from several sources that if you've already had it and get vaccinated the side effects can be quite serious.
The official recommendation is still to get the vaccine, as it appears that the vaccine generates a more robust response than natural infection.  However, we are starting to see some data that a single dose of Moderna or Pfizer may provide adequate protection to persons who previously had COVID. 

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: James_Gale on April 09, 2021, 01:49:37 PM
I'm pretty sure I've had it.  Doesn't that make me immune?


You might have immunity from having had COVID.  An antibody test would give you at least a bit of relevant information on that front.


The CDC at the point is recommending vaccination for those who have had COVID.  The big debate seems to be whether two doses are necessary (of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines) for such people.  Fighting off the disease potentially primes your immune system the way that the first dose does for others.  Thus, when you get the vaccine, your immune system is primed to strike.  That's why people are more likely to have bad reactions to the second dose than to the first.  And it's why bad reactions to the first dose are more common among those who have had COVID than among those who have not. 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 09, 2021, 01:54:31 PM
The “possibility“ for abuse exists in virtually every human activity, including some of those civic actions which you might prefer. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take those actions, even if we watch out for signs of abuse.
True. I would say it is not so much a possibility as an inevitability unless it meets some resistance. The whole "power corrupts" thing and original sin. We could reduce truancy, bail-skipping, and almost eliminate kidnappings, abductions, and a host of other social ills, saving many lives, if the government would simply mandate implanted tracking devices in all citizens. And people who weren't up to no good wouldn't even know the devices were there. But I'd oppose that idea, too, and for many of the same reasons.

The vaccine passports are an idea. I think they are a bad idea, so I won't participate if I can avoid it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 02:05:50 PM
Pastor Preus:
Thanks, Dan.  That's good advice.
Me:
And it was good advice when I gave it, too.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 09, 2021, 02:12:06 PM
Pastor Preus:
Thanks, Dan.  That's good advice.
Me:
And it was good advice when I gave it, too.
But Dan managed to give it with without embedding the advice in a ridiculous rant.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 09, 2021, 02:43:52 PM
Pastor Preus:
Thanks, Dan.  That's good advice.
Me:
And it was good advice when I gave it, too.

You did? Reading your response to me, it sounds like your knickers are in a twist.

You also stated:

The side effects cannot kill you.

A pastor friend of mine had a bad reaction to the first Moderna shot, is now having a great deal of trouble breathing, and is on constant oxygen. He had no problems before getting the  vaccine.

If he was not on constant oxygen, he would be dead.

There have been reports of others who have died from the vaccine.

Now the chances of those types of reactions are very small; less than 1 in 10,000. But low probabilities--even extremely low ones--are not the same as "cannot."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 09, 2021, 02:59:52 PM
Pastor Preus:
Thanks, Dan.  That's good advice.
Me:
And it was good advice when I gave it, too.
While a spoon full of sugar may help the medicine go down, a soupcon of abuse rarely helps the advice be heeded.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 03:33:23 PM
Well, folks, I was using pretty much the exact words of one of the doctors in our facility who answered a question like the one presented here from one of our residents. “For heavens sake,“ he said, you don’t make medical decisions on something that you heard.

Jebutler writes:
There have been reports of others who have died from the vaccine.
I ask:
Show me these reports. Tell me where they came from, and the competence of the people who are reporting them. And tell me what the doctors have to say about the vaccine after a “report“ that someone “died from the vaccine.“
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 03:47:21 PM
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Steven W Bohler on April 09, 2021, 04:03:58 PM
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.

My body, my choice.  Right?  And before you start bleating about how if I don't get vaccinated I MIGHT cause someone else harm, remember that every abortion ALWAYS causes harm -- even death -- to at least one person.  Always.  Yet I don't hear you on the same soapbox about ending abortions.  Maybe when THAT happens, I will reconsider your appeals to the health of others in regards to this vaccination.

And by the way, as JEdwards' post above about the necessity of a second dose shows, the science on these vaccines is far from complete.  It seems legitimate to me for someone to say they wish to wait and see.  Whenever something new comes out, many experts advise waiting until all the "bugs" are sorted out before buying.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dave Likeness on April 09, 2021, 04:17:07 PM
People who are over 70 years old.......they have a good reason to get vaccinated.
It could be a matter of life or death.  A 70 year old body is more prone to a virus
than a 30 year old body.  For the 70 yr old person it is perhaps not a tough decision.

Regardless of age every person has the freedom of choice whether to get the vaccine.
None of us should sit in judgment on those folks who do not get vaccinated.  To be
honest about the over 70 crowd, it could be a matter of self-preservation.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 09, 2021, 04:45:58 PM
Generally speaking, it seems to me that in the great majority of cases the responsible and wise choice seems to be to take the Covid vaccination when it is offered. One can find support for just about any conclusion about anything that one wants on the internet, especially if one is willing to accept as fact items on the web that supports one's opinion without checking for the reliability of the sources. The reliable science on that vaccines, as far as I have seen, is that they were competently developed and tested for safety and effectiveness. The side effects are generally mild, at most inconveniences for a few days. In rare cases the side effects apparently are sever or even debilitating. However the occurrences of sever side effects are apparently much fewer that instances of lasting debilitating effects of the disease, not to mention the instances of death from the disease which is a far higher consequence of contracting Covid than getting the vaccine. The risk from vaccination seems far lower than the risk of contracting Covid and having sever adverse effects or death from Covd. All actions or inactions entail risk. Generally the risk from the vaccines seem much lower than the risk of not vaccinating.

It still, however, seems strange to me that those who value personal choice over all other considerations, even the inevitable death of some if that choice is exercised, suddenly consider such personal choice about vaccination as of negligible value and scorn those who would choose differently than themselves.

Individual cases may well differ. Some individuals medical status may indicate that vaccination poses a significant risk that may suggest not being vaccinated. Determining that situation would properly a matter for the individual and their doctor to discuss and make determination. Deciding, for or against, simply on the basis what one has heard, or seen online, would be irresponsible. There is no good substitute for consulting one's own doctor. Even the advice given to someone else by their doctor would be inadequate if one has serious concerns. Even one who readily gives advice on discussion forums may not know an individual's conditions and the advice they received from their doctor may not really apply.


There is also a community aspect to this. It is far to early to try to give definitive judgements as to the relative effectiveness of the various levels of isolation, closure of businesses, masking protocols, etc. for slowing the spread of the coronavirus. It seems clear that some such efforts were needed and at least somewhat effective. The need to develop a general or "herd" immunity seems clear, and mass vaccination with safe and effective vaccines seems both obvious and confirmed. We have seen this in other diseases. The sooner that we reach the critical herd immunity to sooner that isolation and masking strategies can be relaxed or eliminated. Even if I am not concerned for my own health safety, the benefit to the community of developing that herd immunity would suggest a duty to be vaccinated unless there are serious health contraindicators. It should also be noted that in general, in mass vaccinations a certain number of vaccine refusers can be tolerated without compromising the overall benefit of such mass vaccinations. There will generally always be a few that should not be vaccinated.


Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 04:50:15 PM
Pastor Bohler attempts to change the discussion to his favorite topic. No, that won’t work, and we won’t go there.
Especially since I’m rather sure he isn’t serious about the “my body, my choice“ slogan.
And Dave Likeness, I shall not sit in “eternal judgment” on those who choose not to get vaccinated. But I make no apologies for applying a certain dose of “temporal judgment“ on their decisions.
As I would if someone chose to use their “freedom“ to drive 60 miles an hour through a school zone during the time that the kids were being released for the day. My judgment on that? Selfish. Stupid.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 09, 2021, 04:57:48 PM
Pastor Bohler attempts to change the discussion to his favorite topic. No, that won’t work, and we won’t go there.
Especially since I’m rather sure he isn’t serious about the “my body, my choice“ slogan.
And how serious the pro-choice faction about the "my body, my choice" slogan if it applies to abortion but not vaccines? How serious are you?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 05:04:34 PM
I have never found the “my body, my choice” argument compelling or useful. So I have never used it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 09, 2021, 05:32:10 PM
Well, folks, I was using pretty much the exact words of one of the doctors in our facility who answered a question like the one presented here from one of our residents. “For heavens sake,“ he said, you don’t make medical decisions on something that you heard.

Jebutler writes:
There have been reports of others who have died from the vaccine.
I ask:
Show me these reports. Tell me where they came from, and the competence of the people who are reporting them. And tell me what the doctors have to say about the vaccine after a “report“ that someone “died from the vaccine.“

There is this thing called the Centers for Disease Control. Don't know if you've heard of it or not, but its part of the U.S. Government. The CDC has this thing called the "Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System" (VAERS).

According to VAERS, "Over 167 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 5, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,794 reports of death (0.00167%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Now, you might questions the "the competence of the people who are reporting" this information, but I think this constitutes a "'report' that someone 'died from the vaccine.'“

Now, you might question the preposition "from." Is there any evidence that the vaccine caused any of these deaths? The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."

However, after an autopsy of a Utah woman who died within days of receving the second vaccine, "Dr. Erik Christensen, Utah's chief Medical Examiner, said proving vaccine injury as a cause of death almost never happens."  Further,
"Christensen can think of only one instance where you would see a vaccine as the cause of death on an official autopsy report, and that would be in an immediate case of anaphylaxis — one where a person received the vaccine and died almost instantaneously, he said. 'Short of that, it would be difficult for us to definitively say this is the vaccine.' A more likely result would be a lack of answers or an 'incomplete autopsy.'” https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-woman-39-dies-4-days-after-2nd-does-of-covid-19-vaccine-autopsy-ordered

So, someone who does autopsies all of the time you can't ever know if a vaccine (any vaccine) is the cause of death or not. Apparently, autopsies aren't designed to reveal that kind of information.

As to Rolf's question, different doctors will give you different advice. One of the interesting things about my congregation is that we have many doctors and medical researchers. They work at places like Boston Children's, Mass General, the University of Rhode Island, Tufts University, Dana Farber, and Moderna.

I was talking with some of them about this very question after church one morning, as one of our preschool staff had COVID a month ago and didn't know if she should be vaccinated now or if she should wait. The consensus: there is no consensus. We simply don't know enough yet; this is all still too new (we've been vaccinating for less than six months). While they all suggested she talk with her primary, they also said that different doctors would give different advice. When she told her doctor that she was going on vacation to another state in May, the doctor told her to get the vaccine, that way she wouldn't need a COVID test when she returned. Otherwise, she should put it off. I had to admit, that was a practical answer.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 06:09:57 PM
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Weedon on April 09, 2021, 06:28:22 PM
Pastor Austin,

I think Jim’s point is that proving causation (for anything!) is notoriously difficult; but noting correlation is not. True, of course, post hoc ergo propter hoc will remain fallacious, but if enough post hoc occurs, it might well lead folks to be wary of the hoc!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 09, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:

My name is J. E. Butler. I have no idea how you could possibly think I am posting anonymously when I am using my actual name. For most people, that would be a contradiction in terms, but for you it's apparently possible. The fact that you not only think so, but publicly state it, explains a lot.

Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

I withdraw nothing. I wonder why you would think so.

1. People have died after getting COVID-19 vaccines. Very few, yes, but still some.

2. While the CDC states that autopsies have not given evidence that COVID vaccines have caused deaths, the fact is that autopsies can't rule it out either. They can only demonstrate that there isn't some other reason the person died.

3. We have been distributing the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines for less than six months; J and J/Jansen for even less time. We are getting more real world data all of the time. In time, researchers may be able to be more definitive one way or another.

4. This is analogous to the problems with blood clots and the AstraZenca vaccine which led several European countries to halt distribution of that vaccine. Yes, some people getting that vaccine got blood clots. While researchers doubt there is a link, they cannot definitively prove it one way or the other. They can only demonstrate that it is very rare.

People have died after receiving the vaccine. While researchers doubt there is a link, they cannot, at this time, definitively prove it one way or the other. They can only demonstrate that it is extremely rare (0.00167%).

5. The really weird thing is that I recently had this conversation with a staff member who was worried when she read that there were over 2000 people who had received a COVID vaccine had died and was wondering if she should get it. I agreed, yes, that many people have died. But a) the linkage is doubtful; and b) even if there is a link, her chances of dying from one of the vaccines are less than her chances of getting struck by lighting. I then helped her make her appointment.

Hopefully, this is clear enough even for someone who thinks I'm posting anonymously under my real name.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: James S. Rustad on April 09, 2021, 07:45:10 PM
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

So now you pivot from "cannot kill you" to cannot "cause significant deaths"?  Whatever happened to "if it saves one life"?

And you ignored the whole discussion about how hard it is to prove causality...

The point is that there is some risk in all vaccination.  Why do you think they have you sign a disclaimer indicating that you're aware that there are risks of side effects and that some could be serious?  You did read the fact sheet before signing, didn't you?

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 09, 2021, 08:10:04 PM
Jebutler (still anonymous?) reports:
 The CDC states, "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths."
I comment:
Good. So your statement upstream that the vaccine can cause significant deaths, enough to be wary of taking it, is withdrawn?

So now you pivot from "cannot kill you" to cannot "cause significant deaths"?  Whatever happened to "if it saves one life"?

And you ignored the whole discussion about how hard it is to prove causality...

The point is that there is some risk in all vaccination.  Why do you think they have you sign a disclaimer indicating that you're aware that there are risks of side effects and that some could be serious?  You did read the fact sheet before signing, didn't you?
Yes, the experts administering the vaccines tell you there is significant risk that you need to be aware of, but listening to the experts means disregarding the whole idea that there are significant risks. How is this so complicated for you?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 09, 2021, 08:18:06 PM
Deutsche Welle did a fact check on reports of death from vaccinations all over the world. You can read it here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-links-found-between-vaccination-and-deaths/a-56458746

Then, if you’ve not already done so, go get vaccinated, or schedule your appointment.

Thank you for proving my point with this article. Glad to see that you agree with me.

The article states, "In each case, there has been more to the story than meets the eye. DW reviewed reports from Italy, Austria, South Korea, Germany, Spain, the United States, Norway, Belgium and Peru, finding that in most cases health authorities have not found causal links between the vaccination and deaths." (Emph. mine).

"Most" is not "all."

In dealing with Germany, it lists the reasons for many of the 113 deaths, but then it states, "In 50 cases, the cause of death remains unknown." One fun comment from "Brigitte Keller-Stanislawski, the head of the PEI's department of safety for medical products. 'Based on the data that we have, we assume that the patients died of their underlying disease — in a coincidental time with the vaccination.'" They didn't actually do an autopsy or anything, they are just making that assumption.

While I agree with her point, I find it ironic in that is the very same argument I've read from people who are anti-mask, anti-vax, and who want to open everything up: the only people dying from COVID are those with pre-existing conditions (close to 98% in Massachusetts). So the rest of us shouldn't worry about it.

To sum up the article:

1. A handful of people who have receive a COVID vaccine have died after receiving it.

2. While researchers do not believe there is a causal connection, no one definitively rules it out.

I'm glad you came around to my point of view. You can now untwist your knickers.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 08:45:40 PM
You LCMS guys have - It seems to me, in my not so humble opinion - a real mania about being “right” (as in correct) all the time. You will even settle for a little bit of “right“, Or a partially right. But you have to be right.
In this matter, Pastor Butler, you are a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, a bit so small small it hardly matters, partially right. We agree on that.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: George Rahn on April 09, 2021, 08:51:21 PM
You LCMS guys have - It seems to me, in my not so humble opinion - a real mania about being “right” (as in correct) all the time. You will even settle for a little bit of “right“, Or a partially right. But you have to be right.
In this matter, Pastor Butler, you are a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, a bit so small small it hardly matters, partially right. We agree on that.

I don’t see the problem.  What is not right about searching for what is right?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 09, 2021, 09:31:02 PM
For me, it is also a matter of being credible. That there have been deaths after covid shots is a matter of public record, and it is not just some loony right wing internet conspiracy paranoia. To simply brush that off as nothing to someone who has seen the data and is concerned accomplishes little but sow distrust. Deaths are not nothing. Better to acknowledge that and then realistically look at what it signifies. As jebutler did https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7801.msg499758#msg499758 (https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7801.msg499758#msg499758) . A possible but very slight risk that is entirely reasonable to take given the magnitude, or perhaps more accurately triviality, of the risk and what is at stake.


But generally speaking, which is a better way to help people overcome their fears and act in sensible ways? Poo poo and ridicule their fears and them, or acknowledge their fears and help them reasonably work through them? I can guess your preferred strategy, never pass up an opportunity to treat with scorn someone without the sense to immediately and unquestioningly agree with you. Perhaps no longer needing to deal with at times unreasonable and unreasoning parishioners you have lost the patience to deal with such.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dave Likeness on April 09, 2021, 09:58:15 PM
 The right-fielder in baseball is usually the one who has a good throwing arm.
Some of them made the MLB Hall of Fame.....Roberto Clemente of the Pittsburgh
Pirates is one great example.  An excellent right-fielder will often keep a hitter
from stretching a single into a double.  The base runner respects the arm of a
good right fielder.

On this modest forum, a humble correspondent was transplanted from New Jersey
to Minnesota.   His pride permits him to boast that his right arm has been vaccinated
twice.  He keeps throwing that arm in the air and shouting: "I can throw some heifer
dust with the best of them."   The fact is that he throws it so much, that others have
lost respect for his right arm.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 10:27:09 PM
You guys exaggerate. And you seem obsessed with my comments, when we both agree that - in the Waldorf-Astoria Grand Ballroom of life - my words aren’t all that important.
BTW I have absolutely no idea what that baseball reference meant.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Steven W Bohler on April 09, 2021, 10:41:50 PM
You LCMS guys have - It seems to me, in my not so humble opinion - a real mania about being “right” (as in correct) all the time. You will even settle for a little bit of “right“, Or a partially right. But you have to be right.
In this matter, Pastor Butler, you are a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, a bit so small small it hardly matters, partially right. We agree on that.

And, I guess, you ELCA guys are happy to be wrong much of the time.  Which means, I suppose, that you must be a very happy man.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: jebutler on April 09, 2021, 11:22:17 PM
You LCMS guys have - It seems to me, in my not so humble opinion - a real mania about being “right” (as in correct) all the time. You will even settle for a little bit of “right“, Or a partially right. But you have to be right.
In this matter, Pastor Butler, you are a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, a bit so small small it hardly matters, partially right. We agree on that.

Well, yes. Don't you? I mean, you are the one who argued the point with me in the first place. You are the one who posted the link to a German article which was supposed to disprove my point. Why would you do those things if you didn't think you were right?

But you were wrong and that's what burns you. For all of your protests, you haven't demonstrated where I was wrong in anything that I stated. The only thing you could come up with was using something that I had already pointed out. It's kind of silly to argue a point that's already been conceded.

But when I deal with you I must remember that you publicly accused me of anonymous posting when my name is clearly written on the screen.I think that says a lot about you and your interest in accuracy vs. gaslighting.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Charles Austin on April 09, 2021, 11:49:25 PM
Giving up here, except to note that "jebutler" is not a name posted on the screen.
I might guess that you are James E. Butler of Randolph, Massachusetts.
I might guess, based on things you have posted here,  that you are the James E. Butler that is pastor at St. Luke's in Dedham.
But just "jebutler" is not a "name clearly written on the screen."

And the ever-charming Pastor Bohler writes:
And, I guess, you ELCA guys are happy to be wrong much of the time.  Which means, I suppose, that you must be a very happy man.
So I must comment:
I suggest that you don't try to make a career of witty repartee.

Now: How about them vaccines! Terrific, right? Everybody eager to get their shots? Good for you, good for society. Some hiccups along the way, to be sure (Johnson & Johnson, get your act together please), but we're on the way to big-time protection and immunity. Whoo Hoo!
Thanks to the previous guy (now the Hermit of Mar-a-Lago) for telling the drug companies to do something; and B-I-G thanks to President Biden for shooting it out to us.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Dan Fienen on April 10, 2021, 12:14:51 AM
The history of mass vaccination programs is not unspoiled. I remember in 1976 getting the first of two vaccinations for the swine flu. The government was strongly supporting the vaccinations and strongly urging us all to be vaccinated for out own good, and for the good of public health. Never did get my second shot. The whole vaccination was shut down over concern about side effects that were showing up from the shots.


Caution is not always unwarranted.


By the by, this time I've gotten my second shot, no problems.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on April 10, 2021, 02:10:14 AM
You LCMS guys have - It seems to me, in my not so humble opinion - a real mania about being “right” (as in correct) all the time. You will even settle for a little bit of “right“, Or a partially right. But you have to be right.
In this matter, Pastor Butler, you are a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, a bit so small small it hardly matters, partially right. We agree on that.

And, I guess, you ELCA guys are happy to be wrong much of the time.  Which means, I suppose, that you must be a very happy man.


Most certainly. Jesus came to seek people who do wrong, not those who do right.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussin
Post by: peter_speckhard on April 10, 2021, 09:30:59 AM
Here is an example from several months ago of someone not trusting the WHO on vaccines. "The science" is a political tool. Thankfully, the WHO has reversed course and apparently gone back to the original explanation of herd immunity. The point, though, is that last spring/summer there was legitimate debate about the merits of letting the virus spread among low-risk populations in order to achieve herd immunity. People who opposed that idea were able to get the WHO to simply change the science that the public could read. Then they changed it back.

Propaganda is real and pervasive. It does not stay in any left/right boundaries or government/private sector boundaries, or legitimate new/fake news boundaries. It is a power, and people naturally use it to advance what they believe to be good.

https://www.aier.org/article/who-deletes-naturally-acquired-immunity-from-its-website/