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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Charles Austin on March 27, 2021, 03:54:50 PM

Title: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 27, 2021, 03:54:50 PM
Chag Pesach Sameach
Or one says “Gut Yom Tov” to wish someone a Happy Passover feast.
    There are not “sermons” around the Seder table, but there is discussion and teaching about the events of the Exodus and God’s blessings.
    In today’s Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Robert Aronson asks Passover-related questions that make for some good biblical reflections.
    Passover’s narrative, he says calls upon us, the living, to embrace its transcendent themes of freedom, peoplehood, rededication, gratitude and social justice for “we were once slaves in the land of Egypt.” The plagues, he writes, are “superseded in the joy of crossing the Red Sea, starting a journey to the promised land and creating the covenant with the divine.”
    Aronson wonders, and wonders if the people then (or perhaps God) wondered, why the Israelites deserved the love and protection of the deity. “Was there any regret at the sufferings caused by the plagues to the Egyptians. Did the goal of the exodus create an special, ongoing responsibility to justify God’s intervention on behalf of the Israelites?”
    “From the standpoint of the Egyptians, was there ever a sense their own actions merited the plagues? Did they see themselves as innocent victims, or as deserving divine retribution, or simply as unfortunate victims of natural disasters? Did they conclude that perhaps all people have equal worth? Did their belief system change to embrace a single God?”
    Then he asks another good Bible study question for all of us. “Was there ever a moment when God questioned the justification of slaying the Egyptian firstborn or whether this was displaced punishment on guiltless victims?” He asks “Why didn’t God slay Pharaoh (the perpetrator of the Israelites’ enslavement) and his enablers rather than the firstborn?”
    “Or perhaps God, the all-powerful, should have softened Pharaoh’s heart by injecting into it mercy and justice rather than endowing Pharaoh with the free will to deny freedom to the Israelites?”
    Finally, Aronson speculates “Did God ever doubt whether the Israelites were really worthy of the extraordinary intervention provided to achieve their freedom?”
    Like a good preacher (although Aronson is a lawyer), he draws connections to real life. “We have now spent just over the last year embroiled in a plague – actually a series of plagues – encompassing a pandemic, civil unrest, political and social polarization, racism and in this community (he means Minnesota’s Twin Cities), a horrific in-custody death and destructive aftermath. We have constricted our lives and our dreams to navigate our path through this plague.”
    Were I preaching on a Passover theme, I might swipe his final paragraphs.
    “Our challenge,” he says, “is whether in the post-plague era, we will dismiss our experiences as something akin to a bad dream or take it as an imperative to seek its deeper meaning and instructive wisdom.
    “Can we become a more inclusive people and nation, with our ears attuned and our hearts receptive to the diversity of inhabitants in our land?
    “Will we treasure more our family and friends, feeling the sacredness of their touch and presence?
    “Will we have a new and different understanding of the sanctity of our lives now that we have faced more directly the frailty of our existence?
    “Do we have a deeper connectedness with our place within the world and a shared vision of humanity, knowing that we all, ultimately, seek our collective passage to the promised land?”
    Thus far the Aronson reflections. He is an immigration attorney and chair of the board of HIAS, an agency of the American Jewish community globally serving refugees.
    Gut Pesach to all.

Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 27, 2021, 05:26:38 PM
The themes of the Passover still resonate in the story of salvation.  We are reminded of this at the Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah talk to Jesus of His ἔξοδον, literally His "exodus" (sometimes translated as "departure" - Luke 9:31), where He would lead His people from slavery to sin to the freedom of the Promised Land of eternal life.

Some Christians today also celebrate 'Christianized' passover seders, which brings up a point of discussion.  The Passover has technically been fulfilled in Christ's death, and the last time our Lord celebrated it He instituted the blessed Sacrament of the Supper.  Although one could do so as an historic reenactment (by way of teaching or illustration), it seems superfluous as a formal rite within a Christian assembly, especially in connection with a celebration of the Lord's Supper.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 27, 2021, 05:32:08 PM
Some Christians today also celebrate 'Christianized' passover seders, which brings up a point of discussion.  The Passover has technically been fulfilled in Christ's death, and the last time our Lord celebrated it He instituted the blessed Sacrament of the Supper.  Although one could do so as an historic reenactment (by way of teaching or illustration), it seems superfluous as a formal rite within a Christian assembly, especially in connection with a celebration of the Lord's Supper.

And appending the Lord's Supper to a narrative Christianized Seder has the complication of contradicting normal practice (for many) of Fasting before receiving the Eucharist...even though the Apostles did not Fast at that Passover at which the Eucharist was instituted as the Bridegroom was still with them.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 27, 2021, 05:49:26 PM
There is no such thing as a "Christianized" Seder, and those who attempt to make one are profaning the faith of our Jewish friends and family. Out East, we had many Jewish friends and attended several Seders over the years. My reaction was always: Why do anything to this sacred rite? It is based on truth, instructive of faith and remains a powerful witness to the history we as Christians share with Jews.
The Aronson Op-Ed piece impressed me because of the questions it asked of the biblical narrative and of those of us who are part of that narrative today and share concerns for our community, our relationship with God and the world and how we are shaped by remembering who we were (once enslaved in Egypt) and what we are.
Once we attended a Seder on Tuesday in Holy Week in the home of a local rabbi. That experience changed what I was going to preach on Holy Thursday and how I felt about what we were doing that night.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Weedon on March 27, 2021, 05:55:18 PM
Interestingly, just read an article today from 1983 by two Oxford profs dealing with the question of the date of our Lord’s Crucifixion using astronomy and weighing the ancient texts. Their conclusion is that John’s narrative placing the event on 14 Nissan, not 15 Nissan is correct and that this occurred 3 April 33 A.D. and that when the Passover moon rose after sunset, it rose in partial eclipse: i.e., it rose red. And that THIS is what Peter was referring to in the Joel passage, how before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord (Resurrection), the sun was turned to darkness (they hypothesize caused by one of those horrid dust storms) and then the moon to blood. There’s an apocryphal writing attributed to Pilate, writing Tiberius, mentioning an eclipse at the Passover when Jesus was crucified. Fascinating stuff. But that means that whatever they did on Thursday evening actually wasn’t the actual Passover; rather, Jesus DIES when the Passover Lambs are being slaughtered, “not one of his bones shall be broken.” And maybe that’s the meaning behind Jesus: “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you.” But none of the Synoptics mention the actual presence of a Lamb at that meal. Anywho, if so, then the Supper was given in a context of an anticipated, not an actual, Passover. And think how Paul would later proclaim: “Christ, our Passover, is sacrificed!” It was a great article.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 27, 2021, 06:09:10 PM
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: RDPreus on March 27, 2021, 06:18:07 PM
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover.  1 Corinthians 5:7
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 27, 2021, 06:21:30 PM
Interestingly, just read an article today from 1983 by two Oxford profs dealing with the question of the date of our Lord’s Crucifixion using astronomy and weighing the ancient texts. Their conclusion is that John’s narrative placing the event on 14 Nissan, not 15 Nissan is correct and that this occurred 3 April 33 A.D. and that when the Passover moon rose after sunset, it rose in partial eclipse: i.e., it rose red. And that THIS is what Peter was referring to in the Joel passage, how before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord (Resurrection), the sun was turned to darkness (they hypothesize caused by one of those horrid dust storms) and then the moon to blood.

A quarter century ago after I acquired my first computer, I purchased Carina Software's desktop planetarium program Voyager II.

With that software and its equinox precession tool I was able to replicate the night sky of Jerusalem in 33 AD; yes, the moon did indeed rise in TOTAL eclipse which explains why the Passion narrative mentions the crowd coming "with torches". 

Torches would have been unnecessary on a cloudless night illuminated by the full moon.

And yes, Joel's prophecy finds fulfillment in that when Christ is lifted up from the earth drawing all people to Himself, "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 27, 2021, 06:36:32 PM
I don't try to do a "Christian" Seder. What I've done is to try and reenact the events of the Upper Room. It was a Passover Meal. We are given some details about this meal in Scriptures (usually combined with the Feast of Unleavened Bread) in Exodus 23:43-13:10; Leviticus 23:5-6; Numbers 28:16-17; Deuteronomy 16:1-8; and the synoptic accounts. Luke 22:14-30 gives us the most details of what happened in the upper room.


It seems to me that two separate trajectories developed from the Passover/Unleavened Festival of the 1st Century. One was the Jewish Seder that retold the story of the Passover/Exodus through words and special foods. The earliest Seder liturgies come from the 5th century. The other was the Christians' Agape Meal with the Eucharistic blessing of bread and wine. The liturgical traditions of communion go back to the 2nd century AD.



We can use these resources and try to recreate what might have happened with Jesus and the disciples in the upper room. We can summarize the story from Exodus, with at least the two glasses of wine and sharing of bread that Luke tells us about. There was likely lamb at the meal, too (Mark 14:12), among other special foods. We can recite the ancient story (Haggadah) in Deuteronomy 26:5-8.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 27, 2021, 06:56:59 PM
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover.  1 Corinthians 5:7


πάσχα has four definitions in BDAG
1. an annual Israelite festival commemorating Israel’s exodus from Egypt, the Passover
2. the lamb sacrificed for observance of the Passover, the Passover lamb
3. the Passover meal
4. in later Christian usage the Easter festival

It places 1 Corinthians 5:7 under definition 2. Christ was the Passover Lamb who was slain for us.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 27, 2021, 07:08:35 PM
Interestingly, just read an article today from 1983 by two Oxford profs dealing with the question of the date of our Lord’s Crucifixion using astronomy and weighing the ancient texts. Their conclusion is that John’s narrative placing the event on 14 Nissan, not 15 Nissan is correct and that this occurred 3 April 33 A.D. and that when the Passover moon rose after sunset, it rose in partial eclipse: i.e., it rose red. And that THIS is what Peter was referring to in the Joel passage, how before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord (Resurrection), the sun was turned to darkness (they hypothesize caused by one of those horrid dust storms) and then the moon to blood.

A quarter century ago after I acquired my first computer, I purchased Carina Software's desktop planetarium program Voyager II.

With that software and its equinox precession tool I was able to replicate the night sky of Jerusalem in 33 AD; yes, the moon did indeed rise in TOTAL eclipse which explains why the Passion narrative mentions the crowd coming "with torches". 

Torches would have been unnecessary on a cloudless night illuminated by the full moon.

And yes, Joel's prophecy finds fulfillment in that when Christ is lifted up from the earth drawing all people to Himself, "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


John uses ὑψόω with a double meaning (as John does with a number of other words). In the literally sense, it means, "to make high;" "to lift up." Such as when Jesus was lifted up on the cross and when Jesus was lifted up to heaven with the ascension.


More figuratively, the word means "to exalt;" "to make great."


When Jesus says in John 12:32: "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me;" there are at least three possibilities. (Note: the passive verb doesn't state who is lifting up Jesus.)
1. When the authorities lifted him up on the cross.
2. When the Father lifted him up at the Ascension.
3. When believers exalt him at his return.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 27, 2021, 07:22:32 PM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 27, 2021, 08:07:51 PM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.


In Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 πάσχα refers specifically to the "Passover lamb who is sacrificed." The same word for "sacrifice" is used of Christ in 1 Corinthians 5:7. He has become the sacrificial lamb, which requires an understanding of the Jewish Passover in Exodus 12 to make sense.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: RDPreus on March 28, 2021, 12:20:14 AM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 28, 2021, 12:48:54 AM
Pastor Preus has pulled the pop-top on a can of worms which only leads to denying the validity of the Exodus for God's chosen people and attempting to break the bond between God and the Jews which was re-forged in the events celebrated at Passover, their Passover when, I believe, God receives the memories, prayers and songs sung around the world during Pesach.
And Aronson's article, like the African-American spirituals seeking freedom, plants those Exodus memories, prayers and songs in the midst of today's world.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 28, 2021, 03:25:27 AM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 28, 2021, 07:57:23 AM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.

So for you the Passover only celebrates that one event and does not foreshadow the great sacrifice to come when the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 28, 2021, 08:19:46 AM
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 28, 2021, 04:59:26 PM
Pastor Preus:
Jesus Christ ~is~ the Passover. 
Me:
For us, maybe, “a” Passover. My Jewish friends have “The” Passover. And we have that one too, unless we deny our roots in that event.

St. Paul writes, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7b)  Christ has always been the Passover.  To reject Christ is to reject the Passover.  Your Jewish friends have something that they may call the Passover, but it is not the Passover.  Christ is.  That's what Paul says.


The only sacrifice in the Passover is the lamb. The Passover itself is about remembering God's saving act in the Exodus with a meal.

So for you the Passover only celebrates that one event and does not foreshadow the great sacrifice to come when the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world?


No, I'm saying that 1 Cor 5:7b is talking about Christ being the Passover Lamb for us; not that he replaces the Jewish Passover Festival or Meal. As I noted in an earlier note, the word, πάσχα, has four entries in BDAG. The contexts of the word determines which definition best fits. Especially with θύω = "to sacrifice," in 1 Cor 5:7b, like its use with πάσχα in Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 suggests that πάσχα might be better translated, "passover lamb" in 1 Cor 5:7. (The NRSV has "paschal lamb;" ESV & NIV have "Passover lamb.")


We don't know the details of the Passover/Unleavened Bread Festivals in Jesus' day. I've suggested that whatever it was, two separate trajectories came from that time: the Christians' Eucharist (which, as the Agape Feast, had been more like a potluck meal with the sharing of stories of Jesus and included the sacramental blessing of bread and wine, perhaps similarly to what happened in the Upper Room;) and the Jewish Seder beginning around the 5th century, which, somewhat, standardized the rituals and foods the family shared as they remembered God's saving acts in the Exodus.


Although a different topic, a similar thing happened with Scriptures. The Christians, at the beginning, adopted the LXX with the Apocrypha as their scriptures (while adding writings that later became the New Testament for them) and the Jews went with the Hebrew text as their scriptures to help distinguish the two religions and their sacred writings. Two separate religions were created; rather than seeing Christianity as another Jewish sect (i.e., Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and Christians;) although there were some Christians who continued to see their religion as Jewish, i.e., the Ebionites, later declared heretics.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 28, 2021, 05:04:13 PM
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.


And yet, Exodus 12 is part of the Christians' Scriptures. It is Word of God for us. As some have mentioned before, much of the Old Testament presents a "type" of salvation that is fulfilled for us in Jesus. The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 28, 2021, 05:09:09 PM
The problem with the high-minded and feel-good approach of modern Christians toward Judaism is that it can't withstand even mild theological scrutiny. It is nice. It is civil. It tends toward neighborliness and friendship. But Christians who take that stance end up denying large swaths of the NT or else declaring all truth to be purely subjective, which amounts to the same thing.   
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Weedon on March 28, 2021, 05:10:28 PM
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 28, 2021, 06:57:56 PM
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.
Exactly. The shadow has no substance of its own. The concrete reality does not conform to the shape of its shadow; the shadow, even when seen first, conforms to the shape of the concrete thing. Apart from Christ, all the OT rites are without meaning. They are signs that do not point to anything, recipes offered up as food.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 28, 2021, 07:19:34 PM
It is the Passover for Judaism that the lamb’s sacrifice has validity.  The “passover” of Jesus is a whole different “animal.”  In Christ the Passover of Judaism has no validity.  It is Christ and his death on the cross that has “passover” significance unrelated to Judaism.


And yet, Exodus 12 is part of the Christians' Scriptures. It is Word of God for us. As some have mentioned before, much of the Old Testament presents a "type" of salvation that is fulfilled for us in Jesus. The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

As a Word of God for us as Christians then we must look at what Word it is.  Is it part of God's Word of Law or is it God's Word of the Gospel?  Does this Word save or condemn?  How does Christ bring the Law of God to fulfillment and then to silence?  How does Christ the lamb who was sacrificed for the sin of the world bring salvation?  Finally Lutherans also say something about God's Word of Law outside of Christ.  This must be discussed as well.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 28, 2021, 07:34:22 PM
I believe it is germane to this discussion to note that many liturgical Christian traditions continue to observe the Feasts of the Circumcision (January 1) and the Presentation/Meeting of the Lord (February 2); both of which demonstrate Jesus' voluntary submission and obedience to the Law.

The Orthodox continue to have prayers on the eighth day following birth for the naming of the child and to celebrate "churching" on the 40th day.

From the Doxosticon of the Presentation:

Quote

Today in the Temple, Christ is brought as an infant.
Today, He who gave the Law to Moses comes under the Law himself...

Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 12:02:33 AM
Peter writes:
 But Christians who take that stance end up denying large swaths of the NT or else declaring all truth to be purely subjective, which amounts to the same thing.   
I ask:
So tell me how saying that the Passover of Exodus has validity denies "large swaths of the NT". Wouldn't minimizing the Passover as having been totally subsumed by something else be denying a good portion of the Hebrew Scriptures, that portion BTW, being also our scripture?
The Passover is the Passover.
The Meal of the Eucharist is the Meal.
Both are scriptural.
One looks back for parallels and foreshadowing and sees them.
The other looks forward and does not see connections.
So what? 
And Peter writes:
Apart from Christ, all the OT rites are without meaning.
I comment:
Again, we have the same can of worms uncapped by Pastor Preus, a strange and dangerous action leading to some potentially catastrophic conclusions, the weight of those catastrophes falling solely upon those whose faith in God, the God we believe is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ celebrates those "OT rites."
Why this need to invalidate the rites of God's covenant clearly described in our scriptures?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 29, 2021, 12:26:49 AM
Are we reliving the extremes between Jiudaizers and Marcionites?

Is there anything new under the sun?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 02:39:04 AM
The "types," God's acts for the people, from the Hebrew Scriptures e.g., sacrifices that forgives sins; miraculous deliverance from slavery to freedom through water; give meaning to the death of Jesus. He becomes the sacrifice for sins. The water of baptism becomes the path from slavery to sin to freedom in God's grace.

Brian, with due respect, this has it exactly reversed. It is actually the death of Jesus that gives the meaning to the previous types, not vice versa. It’s later in time, but not later in the mind of God.


For the Romans, without the Hebrew scriptures, Jesus' crucifixion was just an execution. For the Hebrews, like all of the first disciples were, who understood sacrifices for sin and guilt offerings, who had been celebrating Passover for centuries with the sacrifice of the Passover lamb; they could look at Jesus' death as something much more than just an execution. Without the Hebrew Scriptures, they didn't have the background to make sense of Jesus' sacrifice.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 02:41:02 AM
Are we reliving the extremes between Jiudaizers and Marcionites?
No.

Quote
Is there anything new under the sun?
All sorts of new life are springing up with longer periods of sunlight.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 07:48:34 AM
There is no need to invalidate anything. Truth is what Is, not what any particular person recognizes or sees. Christ is the fulfillment of the OT rites. For everyone, whether they know it or not. Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

I don't have a problem with some group wanting to rebuild Noah's Ark if it makes them happy. I have a problem with Christians saying that rebuilding Noah's ark might be a valid thing to do because of the impending flood. Saying so denies the promise. The ark served its purpose. It is fulfilled. There will never need to be another one. If people don't know that, their building of a big boat might be a harmless falsehood. But if Christians do it, there is a big problem. Similarly, a lamb slain at twilight? Great. I like lamb. A Christian saying an animal sacrifice according to OT law has validity today? Not so much.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 29, 2021, 08:54:41 AM
Maybe I'm not following here, but how is saying that the OT is fulfilled in the New and that the rites and sacrifices practiced in the Temple, home and synagogue find their fulfillment in Christ, somehow a "strange and dangerous action leading to some potentially catastrophic conclusions?" Or did I make the wrong conclusion from this comment?

Or is it the desire to see a possibility of the OT finding fulfillment, along with rites and practices such as the Passover, in other religions such as Judaism? 
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 11:25:39 AM
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 29, 2021, 11:30:16 AM
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

What kind of a statement is this?  It reminds me of statements Erasmus made in the diatribe which Luther complained about in The Bondage of the Will.  Christianity DOES say that Christ's sacrifice on the cross "overwhelm(s) the Passover itself."   Otherwise we end up where Paul was in terms of what the Galatians were confessing wrongly, ie. that circumcision/Judaism is necessary for faith in Christ.  The Passover is valid for Judaism alone.   The Passover has no validity for Christianity since in Christ's death it has been set aside.  Any statement by someone who professes to be a Christian which seems to come to the aid of the Passover's validity and then to set that within Christianity as if the validity of the Judaism must somehow precede the value of Christ misses the whole point of Christianity and faith in Christ himself. 
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 29, 2021, 11:34:58 AM
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.

By saying that Judaism is invalid for me, a Christian, is to NOT invalidate it for a Jew.  Judaism and Jews in particular have the right to the validity of their own faith for themselves.  But it is not faith in Christ.  I am NOT being anti-semitic.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 29, 2021, 01:45:16 PM
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.

I think that "catastrophic anti-Semitism" is far more complex than simply acknowledging that for the Christian the OT covenant finds its fulfillment in Christ alone.  Hitler, the most notorious antisemitic, wasn't even a Christian, so his racist attacks on the Jews and the attempted extermination of their race, surely wasn't motivated by Christians 'invalidating' the faith of the Jews by insisting that the OT was fulfilled in Christ.

 
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 29, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole? 
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 02:07:47 PM
What makes a religious practice valid or invalid?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 02:32:45 PM
I like that kind of history, Pastor Weedon, but for me the Passover stands on its own. I can theologically choose not to break the connection with the Passover lamb and the Lord, but I also choose not to stress it in ways that have it overwhelm the Passover itself.

What kind of a statement is this?  It reminds me of statements Erasmus made in the diatribe which Luther complained about in The Bondage of the Will.  Christianity DOES say that Christ's sacrifice on the cross "overwhelm(s) the Passover itself."   Otherwise we end up where Paul was in terms of what the Galatians were confessing wrongly, ie. that circumcision/Judaism is necessary for faith in Christ.  The Passover is valid for Judaism alone.   The Passover has no validity for Christianity since in Christ's death it has been set aside.  Any statement by someone who professes to be a Christian which seems to come to the aid of the Passover's validity and then to set that within Christianity as if the validity of the Judaism must somehow precede the value of Christ misses the whole point of Christianity and faith in Christ himself.


While Paul argues that circumcision is not necessary for faith in Christ, we also read that he circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3). There can be other important reasons for circumcision. Paul didn't ban the practice. Even if the Passover has no validity for Christians, it doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons we should study it.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 29, 2021, 03:24:12 PM
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole?
Has either Omar or Tlaib worn a Camp Auschwitz T-shirt into the Capitol, or marched with torches shouting "The Jews will not replace us," or shot up a Pittsburgh synagogue because the Jews there were welcoming too many immigrants into the U.S.? Have they done anything beyond denouncing the Israeli seizing of land and handcuffing of government in the West Bank and Gaza? Is that the sum total of what you call their anti-Semitism? Or does it go farther? Have they attacked Judaism or its beliefs and practices?

A blessed Passover and Easter to all.
Michael
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 29, 2021, 04:31:59 PM
Is the anti-Semitism in the current Democratic Party evident in Democratic Congressional members like Minnesota Reb. Ilhan Omar and Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and the inability of Congressional Democrats to censure or even specifically call them out for their anti-Semitism based on the Christian faith and theology of the Representatives or the Democratic Party as a whole?
Has either Omar or Tlaib worn a Camp Auschwitz T-shirt into the Capitol, or marched with torches shouting "The Jews will not replace us," or shot up a Pittsburgh synagogue because the Jews there were welcoming too many immigrants into the U.S.? Have they done anything beyond denouncing the Israeli seizing of land and handcuffing of government in the West Bank and Gaza? Is that the sum total of what you call their anti-Semitism? Or does it go farther? Have they attacked Judaism or its beliefs and practices?

A blessed Passover and Easter to all.
Michael
You seem to want to set the bar very high for something to be considered anti-Semitic, one would need to praise the Nazi treatment of the Jewish or commit mass violence. Should that bar be set similarly high for other racisms? That one would need to call for violence against Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians before one could be considered racist?


One summary of recent Democratic anti-Semitism look at https://spectator.org/the-anti-semitism-of-aoc-omar-and-tlaib/ (https://spectator.org/the-anti-semitism-of-aoc-omar-and-tlaib/) or https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-meaning-behind-ilhan-omar-and-rashida-tlaibs-anti-semitic-comments (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-meaning-behind-ilhan-omar-and-rashida-tlaibs-anti-semitic-comments)
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the state of Israel. The spectator article  is a bitter piece of hatred. Notice that he refers to the members of the Congress as “creatures.“
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 29, 2021, 04:37:28 PM
But is it anti-Semitic to suggest that Senators who vote in ways that favor Israel are doing so because they have dual loyalty to America and to Israel and thus they are not really loyal to America, or that the Jews have simply bought their votes? ("It's all about the Benjamins, baby!)


Is it racist to criticize the Black Lives Matter movement?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 04:39:54 PM
Pastor Fienen, your “well, they do it too!” Tactic is really tiresome, because “they” don’t do it too.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dave Benke on March 29, 2021, 05:15:37 PM
Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

Do you think of the Jews as having a different relationship with Christians from Hindus, Muslims, etc.?  Do you think Christians have a different relationship with Jews from those of other religions? 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 29, 2021, 05:40:51 PM
As I began to prepare for Maundy Thursday I pulled out my copy of The Lord's Supper: De Coena Domini by Martin Chemnitz (as translated b y J.A.O. Preus). He notes, regarding the Passover in relation to the Lord's Supper:

But it is beyond controversy that this supper of the Old Testament was figurative, a type, a symbol, something that signified Christ, who accomplished its final fulfillment when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you that I will no more eat this passover with you until it is completed in the kingdom of God" [Luke 22:15-16].
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 29, 2021, 05:44:26 PM
Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

Do you think of the Jews as having a different relationship with Christians from Hindus, Muslims, etc.?  Do you think Christians have a different relationship with Jews from those of other religions? 

Dave Benke
Can't speak for Peter, but seems to me that we do have some differences in our relationship to Judaism than we do to Hindus, Buddhists, etc. As Christians, we see our religion and most especially Jesus as the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures. Jews, obviously do not. Thus we have much in common with Jews, although much different also so that we have become separate religions. We come from the same root stock. Our relationship with Muslims also is different than that of other religions in that they also grew out of the root stock that we did. One could (although Muslims would not) consider Islam to an heretical sect of Christianity, although it has diverged very far. Islam, as I understand it, sees itself as the correction and completion of what began as Judaism and Christianity became corrupted and off track along the way, and Mohammad sought to bring it back in line with God.


But we have today three separate and distinct religions. We can certainly (and should) perceive our common heritage. We can note our areas of agreement as well as where we disagree.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 29, 2021, 05:50:16 PM
Pastor Fienen, your “well, they do it too!” Tactic is really tiresome, because “they” don’t do it too.
So accusing Senators who vote in ways that support Israel of either being disloyal to America or selling their votes, is perfectly fine and acceptable? Repeating classic anti-Semitic topes is a perfectly acceptable form of political expression? We they're Democrats, can't accuse them of anything can you?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 06:32:33 PM
Whether someone wants to keep kosher, or slaughter or bull, or participate in the Passover, or whatever, I have nothing but respect for that person's piety and dedication. I respect Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, you name it, when they live their faith honestly. I think such piety is a worldly virtue that far exceeds anything the scoffer or "non-practicing" member of any religion has to offer. The objection is not to Jewish people engaged in the rites of Judaism. The objection is to Christians saying those rites have validity apart from fulfillment in Christ.

Do you think of the Jews as having a different relationship with Christians from Hindus, Muslims, etc.?  Do you think Christians have a different relationship with Jews from those of other religions? 

Dave Benke
I think Christians definitely have a different relationship with Jews and ancient/Temple Judaism. The curtain is torn in two from top to bottom, though. Sewing it back together does not restore its purpose.

Are we to distinguish between Jew and Gentile? How much DNA is required to be able to claim Abraham as one’s father on a genetic basis? If sacrificial rites are salvific according to Scripture even apart from faith in Christ, what should we do about the Scriptures that speak of such rites not done entirely correctly? Are non-practicing Jews included? If so, how can we call the world of Judaism salvific? If not, on what basis are they excluded.

My wife used to babysit overnight for a Jewish family. She had a separate dishwasher and silverware to use in order to hers apart from the kids’, well, germs I guess. Very observant, they were, and she didn’t begrudge them their religion for a moment. If they think God is made happy by them not using the same silverware as Gentiles, well, that is their religion. It is when a Christian says so that the trouble begins.

I realize Rom. 9-11 deals with great mysteries. But if St. Paul can say that neither  circumcision nor non-circumcision count for anything, it seems very odd indeed to insist that a Seder meal counts for something.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 06:56:34 PM
Peter, the separate dishwashers were to keep from washing meat and dairy dishes in the same machine. It had nothing to do with sharing dishes with gentiles. Your words are almost mockery.
I repeat my questions. All those prayers, songs and memories - both sweet and bitter - the lamentations and the exultations and the gratefulness for the Covenant expressed in Passover: are they reaching God's ears? Are they pleasing to God?
And do we Christians adequately remember that those rituals recall our history also, a history that is not rendered meaningless? How can we say that a Seder meal does not count for anything?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 07:21:31 PM
As I began to prepare for Maundy Thursday I pulled out my copy of The Lord's Supper: De Coena Domini by Martin Chemnitz (as translated b y J.A.O. Preus). He notes, regarding the Passover in relation to the Lord's Supper:

But it is beyond controversy that this supper of the Old Testament was figurative, a type, a symbol, something that signified Christ, who accomplished its final fulfillment when He said: "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you that I will no more eat this passover with you until it is completed in the kingdom of God" [Luke 22:15-16].


Hey! I'm quite positive I used that word that's now in boldface - and I was criticized for it.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 07:24:07 PM
Peter, the separate dishwashers were to keep from washing meat and dairy dishes in the same machine. It had nothing to do with sharing dishes with gentiles. Your words are almost mockery.
I repeat my questions. All those prayers, songs and memories - both sweet and bitter - the lamentations and the exultations and the gratefulness for the Covenant expressed in Passover: are they reaching God's ears? Are they pleasing to God?
And do we Christians adequately remember that those rituals recall our history also, a history that is not rendered meaningless? How can we say that a Seder meal does not count for anything?
The separate silverware served no such purpose. Perhaps I lumped in the separate dishwashers by mistake. In any event, would you feel better if I said a Seder meal counts for as much as circumcision? Circumcision is, after all, the more ancient rite/covenant, given long before the Passover and still practiced today more regularly than Seder meals.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 08:02:06 PM
I think Christians definitely have a different relationship with Jews and ancient/Temple Judaism. The curtain is torn in two from top to bottom, though. Sewing it back together does not restore its purpose.


 Since AD 70 the Jews have had no temple nor a curtain to sew back together. The Judaism that developed sans temple is a bit different than it was with the temple.


Quote
Are we to distinguish between Jew and Gentile? How much DNA is required to be able to claim Abraham as one’s father on a genetic basis? If sacrificial rites are salvific according to Scripture even apart from faith in Christ, what should we do about the Scriptures that speak of such rites not done entirely correctly?


The sacrificial rites haven't been done since AD 70. Proper sacrifices could only take place in the temple and they were done by the Levitical priests.


Quote
Are non-practicing Jews included? If so, how can we call the world of Judaism salvific? If not, on what basis are they excluded.


Jews are born into Judaism through their genetic connection with Abraham. We can call the world of Judaism salvific because God gave his promise to Abraham and his offspring. Either God is able to keep his word or not. If God's ancient promises are no longer good, how can we believe in the promises given to us through Jesus?

Quote
My wife used to babysit overnight for a Jewish family. She had a separate dishwasher and silverware to use in order to hers apart from the kids’, well, germs I guess. Very observant, they were, and she didn’t begrudge them their religion for a moment. If they think God is made happy by them not using the same silverware as Gentiles, well, that is their religion. It is when a Christian says so that the trouble begins.


I think that John's remark in 4:9: "Jews do not 'use together' (συγχράομαι) with Samaritans" is likely more about racial prejudice than religious purity issues. Consider our history of races not being able to drink from the same water fountain - even if they had the same religion.



Quote
I realize Rom. 9-11 deals with great mysteries. But if St. Paul can say that neither circumcision nor non-circumcision count for anything, it seems very odd indeed to insist that a Seder meal counts for something.


Yet, St. Paul circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3). Even if it didn't add anything to the salvation given by Jesus, he must have felt that it counted for something. Seeking to obey the Commandments (especially as Luther explained them) adds nothing to the salvation given by Jesus; but obedience counts for something.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 29, 2021, 08:30:18 PM
Peter, the separate dishwashers were to keep from washing meat and dairy dishes in the same machine. It had nothing to do with sharing dishes with gentiles. Your words are almost mockery.
I repeat my questions. All those prayers, songs and memories - both sweet and bitter - the lamentations and the exultations and the gratefulness for the Covenant expressed in Passover: are they reaching God's ears? Are they pleasing to God?
And do we Christians adequately remember that those rituals recall our history also, a history that is not rendered meaningless? How can we say that a Seder meal does not count for anything?
The separate silverware served no such purpose. Perhaps I lumped in the separate dishwashers by mistake. In any event, would you feel better if I said a Seder meal counts for as much as circumcision? Circumcision is, after all, the more ancient rite/covenant, given long before the Passover and still practiced today more regularly than Seder meals.


What if you used "The Ten Commandments" rather than "Seder meal" or "circumcision"? (The Seder didn't develop until about the 5th century AD. How the Passover (one day feast) and Unleavened Bread (week-long festival) were celebrated by the Jews for about 1500 years before then is unknown.)


Do the Ten Commandments - also given to the Jews during the Exodus (like the rules for Passover and Unleavened Bread) - count for anything?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 29, 2021, 08:35:41 PM
Peter, you say “There is no need to invalidate anything,” And then you go on to do just that to the rites of Passover. Does God hear these prayers and songs? Does the observance of these rituals connect with the covenant God made with the people of those ancient times? Do those rites have any validity with regard to the connection between God and the people that were called to be his own?
Pastor Engebretson, The danger is that it is this kind of language and thinking and the attempts to invalidate the entire faith of the people of that first covenant that has led to some of the worlds most vicious and catastrophic anti-Semitism.

I think that "catastrophic anti-Semitism" is far more complex than simply acknowledging that for the Christian the OT covenant finds its fulfillment in Christ alone.  Hitler, the most notorious antisemitic, wasn't even a Christian, so his racist attacks on the Jews and the attempted extermination of their race, surely wasn't motivated by Christians 'invalidating' the faith of the Jews by insisting that the OT was fulfilled in Christ.

I believe Hitler was baptized via Roman Catholicism.  But he wasn't a practicing Christian, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: George Rahn on March 29, 2021, 08:41:10 PM
Peter, the separate dishwashers were to keep from washing meat and dairy dishes in the same machine. It had nothing to do with sharing dishes with gentiles. Your words are almost mockery.
I repeat my questions. All those prayers, songs and memories - both sweet and bitter - the lamentations and the exultations and the gratefulness for the Covenant expressed in Passover: are they reaching God's ears? Are they pleasing to God?
And do we Christians adequately remember that those rituals recall our history also, a history that is not rendered meaningless? How can we say that a Seder meal does not count for anything?
The separate silverware served no such purpose. Perhaps I lumped in the separate dishwashers by mistake. In any event, would you feel better if I said a Seder meal counts for as much as circumcision? Circumcision is, after all, the more ancient rite/covenant, given long before the Passover and still practiced today more regularly than Seder meals.


What if you used "The Ten Commandments" rather than "Seder meal" or "circumcision"? (The Seder didn't develop until about the 5th century AD. How the Passover (one day feast) and Unleavened Bread (week-long festival) were celebrated by the Jews for about 1500 years before then is unknown.)


Do the Ten Commandments - also given to the Jews during the Exodus (like the rules for Passover and Unleavened Bread) - count for anything?

I use the 10 Commandments because Jesus honored them.  Not because they are from the Old Testament, although I realize their origin from there.  Jesus respected the 10 Commandments because they are God's law.  Through Jesus' death on the cross, Jesus fulfilled them and in Jesus they are set aside as a way to become righteous, for Christians, that is.  Jesus is the Living Lord and Savior.  He is our righteousness now.  Therefore no need for Passover, imo.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 09:51:23 PM
If an observant Jew converts to Christianity and is baptized, do we Christians think some good, bad, or indifferent has happened? If a practicing Christian converts to Judaism, do we think something good, bad, or indifferent happens?

I realize that when I answer honestly that a Jew converting to Christianity is a positive thing but a Christian converting to Judaism is a negative thing, that such a statement could offend many Jews. I think the Gospels mention possibilities along those lines. It seems to me that many Christians really do think that whatever people find meaningful is meaningful to them and that is as far as any religion can go. Evangelism is taken to be colonialism. Evangelism to Jews is taken to be anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 10:33:16 PM
Peter:
It seems to me that many Christians really do think that whatever people find meaningful is meaningful to them and that is as far as any religion can go.
Me:
That is not what we are talking about here. Did the New Covenant cancel the Old? Are God’s promises to the people of the old covenant still in force?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 29, 2021, 11:20:30 PM
Peter:
It seems to me that many Christians really do think that whatever people find meaningful is meaningful to them and that is as far as any religion can go.
Me:
That is not what we are talking about here. Did the New Covenant cancel the Old? Are God’s promises to the people of the old covenant still in force?
Do you believe that Romans 9:6 speaks the truth? That not all who are descended from Israel are Israel? That DNA and genetics has nothing to do with one's relationship with the God who created us all? Or do you think that salvation is by faith in Christ for people without DNA traceable through Jacob to Abraham, but automatic for anyone who can say they have Abraham as their father?

My mother was told as a girl that if she had been in Germany she would have been packed off to the camps because of the Jewish blood in her ancestry. Am I supposed to feel extra-loved by God because of that trace Jewish DNA in my system? Or should I, like St. Paul, consider all such things as rubbish compared to the surpassing worth of knowing Jesus? Modern Judaism, as Brian points out, bears little resemblance to the ancient Judaism of the Temple of which Christianity is the fulfillment. If you think modern Jews are saved apart from Christ by virtue of Jewish blood or lambs sacrificed at twilight or the Old Covenant generally, go ahead. I don't. I think Jews need Jesus as much as anyone else. He is the Messiah they are waiting for, and there is no other.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 29, 2021, 11:40:38 PM
Peter writes:
 If you think modern Jews are saved apart from Christ by virtue of Jewish blood or lambs sacrificed at twilight or the Old Covenant generally, go ahead. I don't. I think Jews need Jesus as much as anyone else. He is the Messiah they are waiting for, and there is no other.
I comment:
I have said it before: I believe that all who are saved are saved by Christ. We are not saved by blood, by sacrifices, by a moral life, by what we "confess," or by "pure doctrine." Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ. We Christians believe we know how that works for us. Can Christ (one with the Father, remember?) save someone who has stuck with the "Old Covenant"? Yes, of course. We have neither the authority, nor the information to rule that out. Or in.
We do have the authority and the information to see that the spiritual heirs of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have an allegiance to and love for scriptures which are also our scriptures. And we have (or ought to have) the information to see how history treated those sons and daughters of Abraham and our complicity in what they have suffered.
And if and when we get to heaven and gather around the Throne, and see folks there who - throughout their lives - followed that Old Covenant, it will still be Christ who got them there.
 
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 30, 2021, 12:44:38 AM
Peter writes:
 If you think modern Jews are saved apart from Christ by virtue of Jewish blood or lambs sacrificed at twilight or the Old Covenant generally, go ahead. I don't. I think Jews need Jesus as much as anyone else. He is the Messiah they are waiting for, and there is no other.
I comment:
I have said it before: I believe that all who are saved are saved by Christ. We are not saved by blood, by sacrifices, by a moral life, by what we "confess," or by "pure doctrine." Anyone who is saved is saved by Christ. We Christians believe we know how that works for us. Can Christ (one with the Father, remember?) save someone who has stuck with the "Old Covenant"? Yes, of course. We have neither the authority, nor the information to rule that out. Or in.
We do have the authority and the information to see that the spiritual heirs of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have an allegiance to and love for scriptures which are also our scriptures. And we have (or ought to have) the information to see how history treated those sons and daughters of Abraham and our complicity in what they have suffered.
And if and when we get to heaven and gather around the Throne, and see folks there who - throughout their lives - followed that Old Covenant, it will still be Christ who got them there.
I don't disagree with any of that, with the caveat that we are in fact saved by what we confess, just not by virtue of having confessed it. What we confess is Christ, and we are saved by Christ. But faith is how we receive Him. Your soteriology simply leaves faith out of the equation as though it doesn't matter in the slightest whether someone trusts in Christ when we consider whether they are saved by His grace. In short, when it comes to Jews you treat objective justification as identical to subjective justification.

The "spiritual heirs of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" are not the genetic heirs, but the receivers of the promise. St. Paul makes clear that faith in Jesus, the fulfillment of those promises, is how one receives the promises. What is the difference between a Jew who doesn't believe in Jesus and a Gentile who doesn't believe in Jesus? Some percentage of DNA. Is that DNA the basis for a relationship with God? Can a microscope or a genealogical study detect a relationship to God?

Even if the OT covenant were still in effect, it would depend on people keeping it. There is no Temple. There is no priesthood. There are no sacrifices.   
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 30, 2021, 02:46:45 AM
Peter, the separate dishwashers were to keep from washing meat and dairy dishes in the same machine. It had nothing to do with sharing dishes with gentiles. Your words are almost mockery.
I repeat my questions. All those prayers, songs and memories - both sweet and bitter - the lamentations and the exultations and the gratefulness for the Covenant expressed in Passover: are they reaching God's ears? Are they pleasing to God?
And do we Christians adequately remember that those rituals recall our history also, a history that is not rendered meaningless? How can we say that a Seder meal does not count for anything?
The separate silverware served no such purpose. Perhaps I lumped in the separate dishwashers by mistake. In any event, would you feel better if I said a Seder meal counts for as much as circumcision? Circumcision is, after all, the more ancient rite/covenant, given long before the Passover and still practiced today more regularly than Seder meals.


What if you used "The Ten Commandments" rather than "Seder meal" or "circumcision"? (The Seder didn't develop until about the 5th century AD. How the Passover (one day feast) and Unleavened Bread (week-long festival) were celebrated by the Jews for about 1500 years before then is unknown.)


Do the Ten Commandments - also given to the Jews during the Exodus (like the rules for Passover and Unleavened Bread) - count for anything?

I use the 10 Commandments because Jesus honored them.  Not because they are from the Old Testament, although I realize their origin from there.  Jesus respected the 10 Commandments because they are God's law.  Through Jesus' death on the cross, Jesus fulfilled them and in Jesus they are set aside as a way to become righteous, for Christians, that is.  Jesus is the Living Lord and Savior.  He is our righteousness now.  Therefore no need for Passover, imo.


Righteousness, in simplest terms, is doing what is right. Doesn't the law tell us what are the right things to do? Doesn't Jesus expand on them in Matthew 5? Doesn't Luther expand on them in the Small Catechism? Righteousness is about doing the right things. It is being a moral person. For Jews and Christians, knowing the right things to do are found in the laws from God. For others, ethics is the study of what is right and wrong.


I also note that Jesus' treatment of the Law in Matthew takes some from the Ten: murder (Ex 20:13) and adultery (Ex 20:14); but "false pledges" comes from Lev 19:12; Num 30:2; Dt 23:21; "eye for an eye" (Ex 21:24; Lev 24:20; Dt 19:21; and "love your neighbor" is from Lev 19:18. Jesus didn't limit himself to the Ten. In fact, the "greatest commandments" do not come from the Ten.


When the commandments are brought up with the rich man seeking to inherit eternal life, Jesus only mentions five of them (all from the second tablet) (Mt 19:19; Mk 10:19; Lu 18:20). The man says that he has kept them all! I also note that this man didn't ask about what would make him righteous.


In fact, righteousness (δικαιοσύνη) is not a big topic in the Gospels.


Matthew does talk about it much more than the others. The word occurs seven times; five are in the Sermon on the Mount.


Mark never uses the word.


Luke uses it once, in the Benedictus, probably copied from a source (Lu 1:75).


John uses it twice (16:8, 10).


To compare, δικαιοσύνη occurs in 29 verses in Romans.



Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dave Benke on March 30, 2021, 08:54:51 AM
When I think of the topic of and substance of the inter-relationships between Jews and Christians in my life and ministry, what comes to mind is a long series of conversations deep into the night with Richard John Neuhaus and his friends, Neuhaus doing much of the conversing.  It was a different kind of conversation in many ways from the one going on here in the thread called Pesach 2021. 

I also hadn't thought through that dear Richard John was often involving us as his sounding board on those evenings.  And what we were hearing and reacting to often was about to become his written dialog with the world.  This will be well worth your time - some of us saw and heard it in person:

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2001/11/8220salvation-is-from-the-jews.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 30, 2021, 09:18:38 AM
As is often (but not always ;)) the case, we have thoughtful and helpful words from RJN. At times, he and the late great Rabbi Abraham Herschel shared the stage in interesting ways.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 30, 2021, 10:11:57 AM
Peter:
It seems to me that many Christians really do think that whatever people find meaningful is meaningful to them and that is as far as any religion can go.
Me:
That is not what we are talking about here. Did the New Covenant cancel the Old? Are God’s promises to the people of the old covenant still in force?

Let us consider the implications that follow if the New Covenant doesn’t cancel or at least significantly change the Old Covenant. There was more to the Old Covenant and the promises that God made to the people of the Old Covenant than a promised savior, forgiveness and salvation. There were significant promises concerning the land. God promised to Abraham and his offspring the land, the promised land.

Genesis 12:5-7 (ESV) 5  And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan, 6  Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7  Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
Genesis 13:14-17, Genesis 15:18-21
Genesis 17:7-8 (ESV)
7  And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8  And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

Could it be that the reestablishment of Israel and their taking possession of the land from those who had taken it over when they had be dispersed is simply the fulfillment of prophecy and God fulfilling His promise? That those who would oppose their taking the land that had been promised to them are standing against God? If there is no change to the Old Covenant as set out in Genesis and elsewhere in the Old Testament, why should the promises concerning the land not be included?

God also promised that He would bring back the children of Abraham when they had become scattered.

Deuteronomy 30:1-5 (ESV) 1  “And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you, 2  and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3  then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4  If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5  And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

Isaiah 60:4-5 (ESV)
4  Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5  Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you.

Isaiah 35:10 (ESV)
10  And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Isaiah 49:22 (ESV) 22  Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders.

Isaiah 60:4-5 (ESV) 4  Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5  Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you.

Jeremiah 31:10 (ESV)

If nothing is changed about the Old Covenant, why not include the land claimed by the people of Israel, brought back from the diaspora, as part of God’s fulfillment of His promises in the Old Covenant?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 30, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
When I think of the topic of and substance of the inter-relationships between Jews and Christians in my life and ministry, what comes to mind is a long series of conversations deep into the night with Richard John Neuhaus and his friends, Neuhaus doing much of the conversing.  It was a different kind of conversation in many ways from the one going on here in the thread called Pesach 2021. 

I also hadn't thought through that dear Richard John was often involving us as his sounding board on those evenings.  And what we were hearing and reacting to often was about to become his written dialog with the world.  This will be well worth your time - some of us saw and heard it in person:

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2001/11/8220salvation-is-from-the-jews.

Dave Benke
Yes, I remember reading that at the time and again later. It is indeed an interesting inner pondering, albeit shy on any conclusions. I like Pope John Paul II's words, "the New Covenant has its roots in the Old. The time when the people of the Old Covenant will be able to see themselves as part of the New is, naturally, a question to be left to the Holy Spirit.” It isn't an "if" it is a "when," and it is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, who works through the proclamation of Christ. There is one people of God, consisting of Jews and Gentiles who know Jesus as Lord. 

There is the old phrase "until the conversion of the Jews" that means basically, "until the end of time" or "until the cows come home." The idea was that just as Christians were grafted into Israel (and, notably, that meant branches of the tree of Israel being cut off), so Israel would be grafted back in via conversion to Christianity. That way everyone would "in" but everybody would also be in on a contingent/dependent basis with no room for boasting. Christians may not boast, because salvation for all is from the Jews. Jews may not boast, because salvation for all is by faith in Christ.

When I explain what it means for the Jews to be the chosen people, I say that when God became a man, He became a Jewish man. He didn't hang out with Norwegian or Japanese fisherman, He hung out with Galileans. His language, culture, history, family, etc. were necessarily particular, and the particularity God chose was Jewish. And He prepared the Jews throughout salvation history to be the people He would call "my people" when He walked the earth. Salvation is from the Jews because Jesus is Jewish. That's what it means to be the chosen people.

Salvation that is from the Jews is, however, accomplished. The Temple is gone, as is the Ark of the Covenant. Salvation that is from the Jews depends upon the proclamation of Christ. It will not do to cast Acts 4 as big misunderstanding between Peter, John and the believers on one side and the Jewish leaders on the other side, with none of them realizing that their differences were really a larger unity and the proclamation of Christ was just for Gentiles, not Jews. RJN would no doubt agree but then add, "And yet...and yet." 

As for me and my house, we will continue to serve the Incarnate Lord Jesus as the only Lord and Savior of Jew and Gentile without distinction.   
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: John_Hannah on March 30, 2021, 10:49:29 AM
When I think of the topic of and substance of the inter-relationships between Jews and Christians in my life and ministry, what comes to mind is a long series of conversations deep into the night with Richard John Neuhaus and his friends, Neuhaus doing much of the conversing.  It was a different kind of conversation in many ways from the one going on here in the thread called Pesach 2021. 

I also hadn't thought through that dear Richard John was often involving us as his sounding board on those evenings.  And what we were hearing and reacting to often was about to become his written dialog with the world.  This will be well worth your time - some of us saw and heard it in person:

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2001/11/8220salvation-is-from-the-jews.

Dave Benke

Thanks, Dave. Richard offers makes a substantial biblical argument, as always.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 30, 2021, 11:15:13 AM
Pastor Fienen writes:
If nothing is changed about the Old Covenant, why not include the land claimed by the people of Israel, brought back from the diaspora, as part of God’s fulfillment of His promises in the Old Covenant?
I muse:
Yes. Why not?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 30, 2021, 11:36:57 AM
Pastor Fienen writes:
If nothing is changed about the Old Covenant, why not include the land claimed by the people of Israel, brought back from the diaspora, as part of God’s fulfillment of His promises in the Old Covenant?
I muse:
Yes. Why not?
So you support Israel's claim to the land which they occupy as fulfillment of God's promise to them?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Charles Austin on March 30, 2021, 11:58:43 AM
I did not say that.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 30, 2021, 12:00:56 PM
I did not say that.
Why not? Is it not a key part of the covenant you’re talking about?
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 30, 2021, 01:31:20 PM
I did not say that.
No, you did not specifically say that. But on what basis would you affirm that the Old Covenant made during the time of the Old Testament is still fully in effect yet exclude the promises made concerning the land?
Title: Re: Holy Week and Easter 2021
Post by: Randy Bosch on March 30, 2021, 01:46:29 PM
I am grateful for and benefit from this fascinating thread weaving through various understandings of Passover.
Nice diversion from anyone discussing Holy Week and Easter in the Christian church in 2021.  Apparently successful, since Holy Week and Easter seem vastly underrepresented on ALPB Forum during Lent.
Congratulations.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 30, 2021, 02:12:23 PM
God also promised that He would bring back the children of Abraham when they had become scattered.


Yes, and that happened. When the children of Abraham were in Egypt, God brought them back centuries later.


When the children of Abraham were exiled in Babylon, God brought them back about 70 years later.


The prophecies of Isaiah and other writings about the return happened.

To say that they now apply to the present situation of the reestablishing the nation of Israel might be a stretch. God is doing a new thing now. God's grace that returned the people to the land through the Exodus and after the Exile wasn't sufficient to produce the trust God demanded from his people. A new plan was born in Bethlehem. Jesus says that the kingdom of God is not related to the land, but it is within us (Luke 17:21). It happens when people are healed (Luke 10:9).

As it is, as I recall reading, there are more Jews living in America (perhaps even in New York,) than are living in Israel. The children of Abraham are not flocking back to Israel.
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Weedon on March 30, 2021, 02:26:55 PM
Randy,

Let’s lot St. John of Damascus fix that for us:

The day of resurrection,
Earth tell it out abroad,
The Passover of gladness,
The Passover of God,
From death to life immortal,
From this world to the skies,
Our Christ has brought us over
With hymns of victory.

And

Come, you faithful, raise the strain
Of triumphant gladness.
God has brought His Israel
Into joy from sadness.
Loosed from Pharaoh’s bitter yoke,
Jacob’s sons and daughters,
Let them with unmoistened foot
Through the Red Sea waters.

Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Randy Bosch on March 30, 2021, 02:55:16 PM
Thank you, Will.
Our congregation's hymns for Maundy Thursday Divine Service:
LW356: Drawn to the Cross, Which You Have Blessed
LW240: Draw Near and Take the Body of the Lord
LW359: Just As I Am, Without One Plea
LW116: Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted
LW110: Go to Dark Gethsemane

A lot of singing, in masks, in Season, with Christ at the center and on the way to the cross.
SDG
Title: Re: Pesach 2021
Post by: Dave Benke on March 30, 2021, 03:27:25 PM
Thank you, Will.
Our congregation's hymns for Maundy Thursday Divine Service:
LW356: Drawn to the Cross, Which You Have Blessed
LW240: Draw Near and Take the Body of the Lord
LW359: Just As I Am, Without One Plea
LW116: Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted
LW110: Go to Dark Gethsemane

A lot of singing, in masks, in Season, with Christ at the center and on the way to the cross.
SDG

On Holy Thursday for some years we have conducted a Divine Service using the oils blessed for service earlier in the week at service for many congregations; except last year and this year.  So we have "older" oils.  There are three types of holy oil consecrated in our little part of the Missouri Synod world - chrism for baptisms, oil for anointing the sick, and oil for the catechumens (confirmation/adult affirmation).   Three different odors, all good - eucalyptus in the healing oil.  On Holy Thursday we either combine with reception of the Eucharist or have a separate "altar call" for the anointment for healing.   Then there are other services of healing throughout the year.

Anyway, I have just spoken on how I was raised with one set of hymns and have through the years had them appended by a different set of hymns, all to the good and God's glory. 

So, beginning with the one we're singing that you're singing:
Just As I Am
There is a Balm in Gilead
Te Vengo a Decir
Alone
When Israel was in Egypt's Land
Above All
Were You There
and a song composed by a parishioner as a duet

To repeat - a lot of singing, in masks, in Season, with Christ at the center and on the way to the cross.

Dave Benke