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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 09, 2021, 07:25:06 AM

Title: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 09, 2021, 07:25:06 AM
Lenten greetings. I have put together a new YouTube playlist for my people and I'm sharing a link to it here. Since March is Women's History Month, the playlist feature notable Lutheran women. Unfortunately, there is a limited selection of videos for this topic on YouTube. Hopefully some others will be created in the future. God bless.

Lutheran Women. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6RVlO0YhDuhFmJ8rBKsWHOndQ-QtXD3d (https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6RVlO0YhDuhFmJ8rBKsWHOndQ-QtXD3d)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 10, 2021, 12:33:55 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   

As I young girl I witnessed LCMS deaconesses serve through the NYC Lutheran Inner Mission Society.  They also served at St. Luke Lutheran Church in the heart of Times Square.  The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India.  Many of the first LCMS deaconesses served as house mothers at Bethesda and other homes for children and/or the developmentally delayed. Originally LCMS deaconesses were not permitted to marry.

It was not until the deaconess program was moved to Valpo that women could continue serving if they married. When I was at Valpo, 1958-1960, several students favored the idea of having deaconess train at one of the seminaries. The Lutheran Deaconess Association Board favored continuing the program at Valpo.   Board member, Fort Wayne Sr. College Professor Robert Schnable, cautioned the Valpo deaconesses about such a move. Such a move might limit the freedom and flexibility of the existing LDA Board to supervise the Valpo program .   

Today, the history of how hundreds of women served as LCMS deaconesses prior to the black listing of Valpo's program is all but ignored. Simple things like having a deaconess read a lesson during worship divided the Valpo program and the synodically approved programs at RF, St. Louis and Fort Wayne.

The pastor under whom I served, 1958-60, had no problem with my teaching an adult confirmation class that included men.  It is my understanding that deaconesses trained at the synodically approved programs sign an agreement that limits areas of service that were not prohibited when I graduated.  Seven years ago when I went to India to work with the Indian deaconesses I witnessed how, in the LCMS
 partner church, the IELC, deaconesses are marginalized.   

My LCMS college education (Bronxville and Valpo)  made no mention of "the order of creation." Today, LCMS women, including the deaconesses,  are taught that Genesis two reveals the God ordained "Order of Creation Law" that defines how, when, where and whom women are permitted to serve. The Lutheran Study Bible now states that "the order of creation" is a Biblical topic that defines woman place and purpose in the church.   


Hopefully, the service of women who served faithfully from the time LCMS deaconesses were first trained at Ft. Wayne will include those subsequently educated at Valparaiso.   

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 10, 2021, 12:53:49 PM
The deaconess program at CUC is a small but vibrant program for those pursuing the undergraduate option.  My youngest daughter is in her second year at CUC with the intent of being a deaconess. Since she has been studying remotely at home this year, due to COVID, I have had the unique opportunity to interact with her, especially as she takes theology courses. I love having something to talk theology with! I have been very pleased with CUC's program and am glad that my daughter chose this school. It also has a great music program, and as a organist she has had a great chance to study under a first rate instructor to develop a skill that will be in high demand when she graduates.  When she was still in high school she 'job shadowed' me on shut-in visits.  Again, it was great to have a part in her training not only as her pastor but as her father. 

Deaconesses are a valuable part of the overall mercy ministry aspect of our church and we are blessed by their presence.  Although somewhat small in number compared to other church workers, they are are indispensable asset to the church!
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 10, 2021, 01:30:11 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   

As I young girl I witnessed LCMS deaconesses serve through the NYC Lutheran Inner Mission Society.  They also served at St. Luke Lutheran Church in the heart of Times Square.  The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India.  Many of the first LCMS deaconesses served as house mothers at Bethesda and other homes for children and/or the developmentally delayed. Originally LCMS deaconesses were not permitted to marry.

It was not until the deaconess program was moved to Valpo that women could continue serving if they married. When I was at Valpo, 1958-1960, several students favored the idea of having deaconess train at one of the seminaries. The Lutheran Deaconess Association Board favored continuing the program at Valpo.   Board member, Fort Wayne Sr. College Professor Robert Schnable, cautioned the Valpo deaconesses about such a move. Such a move might limit the freedom and flexibility of the existing LDA Board to supervise the Valpo program .   

Today, the history of how hundreds of women served as LCMS deaconesses prior to the black listing of Valpo's program is all but ignored. Simple things like having a deaconess read a lesson during worship divided the Valpo program and the synodically approved programs at RF, St. Louis and Fort Wayne.

The pastor under whom I served, 1958-60, had no problem with my teaching an adult confirmation class that included men.  It is my understanding that deaconesses trained at the synodically approved programs sign an agreement that limits areas of service that were not prohibited when I graduated.  Seven years ago when I went to India to work with the Indian deaconesses I witnessed how, in the LCMS
 partner church, the IELC, deaconesses are marginalized.   

My LCMS college education (Bronxville and Valpo)  made no mention of "the order of creation." Today, LCMS women, including the deaconesses,  are taught that Genesis two reveals the God ordained "Order of Creation Law" that defines how, when, where and whom women are permitted to serve. The Lutheran Study Bible now states that "the order of creation" is a Biblical topic that defines woman place and purpose in the church.   


Hopefully, the service of women who served faithfully from the time LCMS deaconesses were first trained at Ft. Wayne will include those subsequently educated at Valparaiso.   

Marie Meyer

MARIE,

That history should be captured and published. It is important. I have speculated about my mother's career path. Sometime in the 1930's she entered a nurses' training program at the Lutheran Hospital in Hampton, Iowa. The hospital had a large house next door which served as a dormitory for the nurse candidates. When she graduated she was a Registered Nurse and worked in the Lutheran Hospital off and on until she remarried and moved away. By my time the nurses' school was closed but the hospital remained for quite a few years as Lutheran Hospital, the only one in the county.

My speculation is that this Iowa complex of institutions (Hospital, Nurses' Quarters, and School) was descendant from the deaconesses of the Muhlenberg Lutherans, which I believe included nurses as well as parish workers. I do know that other cities have or have had Lutheran Hospitals. (The one in Hampton closed.) I don't know if any also had the associated nurses' training. It is something that should be researched and might be found to have been a prelude to the formation of the LCMS deaconess enterprise sometime in the 1940s.

Peace, JOHN

PS: I do consider the "black listing" of the Valpo Deaconesses as immoral as in stealing. Very sad.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 10, 2021, 01:34:00 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   

As I young girl I witnessed LCMS deaconesses serve through the NYC Lutheran Inner Mission Society.  They also served at St. Luke Lutheran Church in the heart of Times Square.  The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India.  Many of the first LCMS deaconesses served as house mothers at Bethesda and other homes for children and/or the developmentally delayed. Originally LCMS deaconesses were not permitted to marry.

It was not until the deaconess program was moved to Valpo that women could continue serving if they married. When I was at Valpo, 1958-1960, several students favored the idea of having deaconess train at one of the seminaries. The Lutheran Deaconess Association Board favored continuing the program at Valpo.   Board member, Fort Wayne Sr. College Professor Robert Schnable, cautioned the Valpo deaconesses about such a move. Such a move might limit the freedom and flexibility of the existing LDA Board to supervise the Valpo program .   

Today, the history of how hundreds of women served as LCMS deaconesses prior to the black listing of Valpo's program is all but ignored. Simple things like having a deaconess read a lesson during worship divided the Valpo program and the synodically approved programs at RF, St. Louis and Fort Wayne.

The pastor under whom I served, 1958-60, had no problem with my teaching an adult confirmation class that included men.  It is my understanding that deaconesses trained at the synodically approved programs sign an agreement that limits areas of service that were not prohibited when I graduated.  Seven years ago when I went to India to work with the Indian deaconesses I witnessed how, in the LCMS
 partner church, the IELC, deaconesses are marginalized.   

My LCMS college education (Bronxville and Valpo)  made no mention of "the order of creation." Today, LCMS women, including the deaconesses,  are taught that Genesis two reveals the God ordained "Order of Creation Law" that defines how, when, where and whom women are permitted to serve. The Lutheran Study Bible now states that "the order of creation" is a Biblical topic that defines woman place and purpose in the church.   


Hopefully, the service of women who served faithfully from the time LCMS deaconesses were first trained at Ft. Wayne will include those subsequently educated at Valparaiso.   

Marie Meyer

MARIE,

That history should be captured and published. It is important. I have speculated about my mother's career path. Sometime in the 1930's she entered a nurses' training program at the Lutheran Hospital in Hampton, Iowa. The hospital had a large house next door which served as a dormitory for the nurse candidates. When she graduated she was a Registered Nurse and worked in the Lutheran Hospital off and on until she remarried and moved away. By my time the nurses' school was closed but the hospital remained for quite a few years as Lutheran Hospital, the only one in the county.

My speculation is that this Iowa complex of institutions (Hospital, Nurses' Quarters, and School) was descendant from the deaconesses of the Muhlenberg Lutherans, which I believe included nurses as well as parish workers. I do know that other cities have or have had Lutheran Hospitals. (The one in Hampton closed.) I don't know if any also had the associated nurses' training. It is something that should be researched and might be found to have been a prelude to the formation of the LCMS deaconess enterprise sometime in the 1940s.

Peace, JOHN

PS: I do consider the "black listing" of the Valpo Deaconesses as immoral as in stealing. Very sad.
If the Valpo Deaconesses were indeed, as alleged, taught differently than the synodical Deaconesses, why would it be immoral to distinguish between them and limit synodical approval to those who agreed with synod? The only reason "blacklisting" (if that is a properly charitable term) would be wrong would be if they were taught the same thing but treated differently purely based on where they went to learn it. But Marie's contention is that they weren't taught the same things.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 10, 2021, 02:07:36 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   
I knew Lutheran Deaconess Hospital in Minneapolis from having taken a teenager to its ER. It has Norwegian roots and had a nursing school associated with it.
Quote
The roots of the Fairview Deaconess Hospital and its nursing program go back to the 1888 establishment of a deaconess home on Hennepin Avenue by Sister Elizabeth Fedde, following a meeting of the General Council of the Norwegian Lutheran Church (later the American Lutheran Church) in Minneapolis. In 1891 the first permanent home was established at 417 East 23rd Street, which became known as the Deaconess Home and Hospital. Thereafter the facility was operated under the overall leadership of a rector, with a deaconess serving as superintendent of the hospital and a sister superior directing the home.

A new 90-bed hospital (24th Street and 15th Avenue) was dedicated in 1910, and in 1916 the training school for nurses was established, superceding the deaconess training program. The following year Bergh Hall, a dormitory to house 40 student nurses, was completed. In 1920 the institution was renamed Lutheran Deaconess Hospital (LDH), and both its physical plant and its programs continued growing over the following decades. A new nursing school and dormitory--Bergeland Hall--was dedicated in 1967, and in 1968 the positions of nursing school director and nursing services director were split.

In 1973 LDH formally consolidated its programs with Fairview and Fairview-Southdale hospitals, the merged entity becoming known as Fairview Community Hospitals and, in 1981, LDH was renamed Fairview Deaconess Hospital (FDH). The School of Nursing graduated its final class in 1987.
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00028.xml (http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00028.xml)

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 10, 2021, 02:23:12 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   
I knew Lutheran Deaconess Hospital in Minneapolis from having taken a teenager to its ER. It has Norwegian roots and had a nursing school associated with it.
Quote
The roots of the Fairview Deaconess Hospital and its nursing program go back to the 1888 establishment of a deaconess home on Hennepin Avenue by Sister Elizabeth Fedde, following a meeting of the General Council of the Norwegian Lutheran Church (later the American Lutheran Church) in Minneapolis. In 1891 the first permanent home was established at 417 East 23rd Street, which became known as the Deaconess Home and Hospital. Thereafter the facility was operated under the overall leadership of a rector, with a deaconess serving as superintendent of the hospital and a sister superior directing the home.

A new 90-bed hospital (24th Street and 15th Avenue) was dedicated in 1910, and in 1916 the training school for nurses was established, superceding the deaconess training program. The following year Bergh Hall, a dormitory to house 40 student nurses, was completed. In 1920 the institution was renamed Lutheran Deaconess Hospital (LDH), and both its physical plant and its programs continued growing over the following decades. A new nursing school and dormitory--Bergeland Hall--was dedicated in 1967, and in 1968 the positions of nursing school director and nursing services director were split.

In 1973 LDH formally consolidated its programs with Fairview and Fairview-Southdale hospitals, the merged entity becoming known as Fairview Community Hospitals and, in 1981, LDH was renamed Fairview Deaconess Hospital (FDH). The School of Nursing graduated its final class in 1987.
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00028.xml (http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00028.xml)

Peace,
Michael

Thanks, Michael; good to know about that. It confirms my hypothesis that the Muhlenberg deaconess institution was moving west. "Go west young lady, go west."   ;D

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 10, 2021, 02:47:50 PM
"The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India."

Thanks, Marie, for the names. I did find information about them online but no one has made a YouTube video. Also, nothing about Muhlenberg deaconesses.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Paul Peckman on March 10, 2021, 03:06:50 PM
Rose Ziemke was my sponsor (though distance kept her from having a large impact on my life when my parents left India in 1952).  As we were leaving the country, another Deaconess (I believe), Betty Rose Wolf (from Humboldt, KS), was killed in an airplane accident due to a dust storm.  She had accompanied our family to our place of departure.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on March 10, 2021, 05:23:09 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   

As I young girl I witnessed LCMS deaconesses serve through the NYC Lutheran Inner Mission Society.  They also served at St. Luke Lutheran Church in the heart of Times Square.  The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India.  Many of the first LCMS deaconesses served as house mothers at Bethesda and other homes for children and/or the developmentally delayed. Originally LCMS deaconesses were not permitted to marry.

It was not until the deaconess program was moved to Valpo that women could continue serving if they married. When I was at Valpo, 1958-1960, several students favored the idea of having deaconess train at one of the seminaries. The Lutheran Deaconess Association Board favored continuing the program at Valpo.   Board member, Fort Wayne Sr. College Professor Robert Schnable, cautioned the Valpo deaconesses about such a move. Such a move might limit the freedom and flexibility of the existing LDA Board to supervise the Valpo program .   

Today, the history of how hundreds of women served as LCMS deaconesses prior to the black listing of Valpo's program is all but ignored. Simple things like having a deaconess read a lesson during worship divided the Valpo program and the synodically approved programs at RF, St. Louis and Fort Wayne.

The pastor under whom I served, 1958-60, had no problem with my teaching an adult confirmation class that included men.  It is my understanding that deaconesses trained at the synodically approved programs sign an agreement that limits areas of service that were not prohibited when I graduated.  Seven years ago when I went to India to work with the Indian deaconesses I witnessed how, in the LCMS
 partner church, the IELC, deaconesses are marginalized.   

My LCMS college education (Bronxville and Valpo)  made no mention of "the order of creation." Today, LCMS women, including the deaconesses,  are taught that Genesis two reveals the God ordained "Order of Creation Law" that defines how, when, where and whom women are permitted to serve. The Lutheran Study Bible now states that "the order of creation" is a Biblical topic that defines woman place and purpose in the church.   


Hopefully, the service of women who served faithfully from the time LCMS deaconesses were first trained at Ft. Wayne will include those subsequently educated at Valparaiso.   

Marie Meyer

I think the term "black listed" is a little over the top to describe women who chose to intentionally depart from the teachings and confession of the LCMS. 

And I signed no such agreement in the deaconess program I studied within.  Perhaps you are referring to the CDC's Code of Ethics.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 10, 2021, 06:08:41 PM
After viewing the you tube on LCMS deaconesses I would call attention to how the history made no mention of the first LCMS deaconesses.  Initially the women were trained as nurses. When the program was transferred to Valparaiso the education was primarily theological for service in LCMS parishes. Several of the women were RNs whose goal it was to serve as missionary nurses.   

As I young girl I witnessed LCMS deaconesses serve through the NYC Lutheran Inner Mission Society.  They also served at St. Luke Lutheran Church in the heart of Times Square.  The Lutheran Women's Quarterly featured stories of deaconesses Gertrude Simon and Martha Boss in mainland China before they had to flee to Hong Kong where they established a roof top school for refugee children. Both women were registered nurses.   I also read about deaconess Rose Zimke in India where she helped train deaconesses in India.  Many of the first LCMS deaconesses served as house mothers at Bethesda and other homes for children and/or the developmentally delayed. Originally LCMS deaconesses were not permitted to marry.

It was not until the deaconess program was moved to Valpo that women could continue serving if they married. When I was at Valpo, 1958-1960, several students favored the idea of having deaconess train at one of the seminaries. The Lutheran Deaconess Association Board favored continuing the program at Valpo.   Board member, Fort Wayne Sr. College Professor Robert Schnable, cautioned the Valpo deaconesses about such a move. Such a move might limit the freedom and flexibility of the existing LDA Board to supervise the Valpo program .   

Today, the history of how hundreds of women served as LCMS deaconesses prior to the black listing of Valpo's program is all but ignored. Simple things like having a deaconess read a lesson during worship divided the Valpo program and the synodically approved programs at RF, St. Louis and Fort Wayne.

The pastor under whom I served, 1958-60, had no problem with my teaching an adult confirmation class that included men.  It is my understanding that deaconesses trained at the synodically approved programs sign an agreement that limits areas of service that were not prohibited when I graduated.  Seven years ago when I went to India to work with the Indian deaconesses I witnessed how, in the LCMS
 partner church, the IELC, deaconesses are marginalized.   

My LCMS college education (Bronxville and Valpo)  made no mention of "the order of creation." Today, LCMS women, including the deaconesses,  are taught that Genesis two reveals the God ordained "Order of Creation Law" that defines how, when, where and whom women are permitted to serve. The Lutheran Study Bible now states that "the order of creation" is a Biblical topic that defines woman place and purpose in the church.   


Hopefully, the service of women who served faithfully from the time LCMS deaconesses were first trained at Ft. Wayne will include those subsequently educated at Valparaiso.   

Marie Meyer

MARIE,

That history should be captured and published. It is important. I have speculated about my mother's career path. Sometime in the 1930's she entered a nurses' training program at the Lutheran Hospital in Hampton, Iowa. The hospital had a large house next door which served as a dormitory for the nurse candidates. When she graduated she was a Registered Nurse and worked in the Lutheran Hospital off and on until she remarried and moved away. By my time the nurses' school was closed but the hospital remained for quite a few years as Lutheran Hospital, the only one in the county.

My speculation is that this Iowa complex of institutions (Hospital, Nurses' Quarters, and School) was descendant from the deaconesses of the Muhlenberg Lutherans, which I believe included nurses as well as parish workers. I do know that other cities have or have had Lutheran Hospitals. (The one in Hampton closed.) I don't know if any also had the associated nurses' training. It is something that should be researched and might be found to have been a prelude to the formation of the LCMS deaconess enterprise sometime in the 1940s.

Peace, JOHN

PS: I do consider the "black listing" of the Valpo Deaconesses as immoral as in stealing. Very sad.
If the Valpo Deaconesses were indeed, as alleged, taught differently than the synodical Deaconesses, why would it be immoral to distinguish between them and limit synodical approval to those who agreed with synod? The only reason "blacklisting" (if that is a properly charitable term) would be wrong would be if they were taught the same thing but treated differently purely based on where they went to learn it. But Marie's contention is that they weren't taught the same things.

Clarification:  Prior to the early 1960s neither the Bible nor the Confessions were quoted at the St. Louis seminary, the Concordias or Valpo to teach that there are two biblical God's ordained orders for relationships in the church and home. The claim that God, prior to the Fall,  established a structured immutable order of creation Law where men by nature have spiritual authority in relation to woman first appeared in the 1955 CPH publication, "The Office of Woman" by Frtitz Zerbst.   

Prior to 1955 Luther and others referred to the orders of creation as God's work of preserving creation in a fallen world, not to a single immutable top down structure have to do with authority in the home and church.  IOW, the order of creation subordination to man did not become established in LCMS class rooms until after the 1968 CTCR report on suffrage was adopted.  At that time suffrage was granted if and when women did not use the right to vote in congregational meetings to teach adult men or in any other way exercise authority over men thereby "violating" the order of creation. 

In subsequent years the LCMS concept of an immutable order of creation structure that defined the identity, purpose and relationship between man and woman took on a life of it's own.  By 1985  the order of creation had become the "theological matrix" for understanding the identity and purpose of woman and her subordinate position in relation to man.  Thus, the concept of a divinely instituted top down order was now taught within the Concordia system, but not at Valpo where the Valparaiso Department of Theology did not accept the order of creation as a divinely inspired biblical doctrine.

Clearly, the history of women's service in the LCMS is complex.  One result of this is that women who for years graduated from the Valpo program and were duly called and consecrated to  serve in LCMS congregations are silently being dismissed as part of the story.

Marie Meyer

   
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on March 10, 2021, 10:57:50 PM
The complex history of the service of deaconesses in the LCMS can be found in this book (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052NMD5K/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0).  I disagree that Valpo deaconesses are silently being dismissed with respect to this history.  It is well documented in this book from the standpoint of those who personally experienced the theological shift at Valpo and sought to form a new organization for deaconesses who chose to remain true to LCMS doctrine.

I am so grateful for the solid theological training I received in the program I studied within (CTSFW) and am enjoying immensely the current opportunity I have to teach deaconess classes at Concordia-Chicago.  Some fabulous women are coming through the program with a desire to serve in a manner that aligns with the confession of faith of their church body.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 11, 2021, 06:04:15 AM
Marie, I wonder whether brief stories and photos of the three early deaconesses you mentioned might be scripted to create a Youtube video. I found that ALPB has a YouTube channel. Perhaps they would be willing to host the video. Here is a link to their channel:

https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011 (https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 11, 2021, 05:03:52 PM
The complex history of the service of deaconesses in the LCMS can be found in this book (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052NMD5K/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0).  I disagree that Valpo deaconesses are silently being dismissed with respect to this history.  It is well documented in this book from the standpoint of those who personally experienced the theological shift at Valpo and sought to form a new organization for deaconesses who chose to remain true to LCMS doctrine.

I am so grateful for the solid theological training I received in the program I studied within (CTSFW) and am enjoying immensely the current opportunity I have to teach deaconess classes at Concordia-Chicago.  Some fabulous women are coming through the program with a desire to serve in a manner that aligns with the confession of faith of their church body.

Like the Buckeye deaconess, I am profoundly grateful for solid biblical education from the time I entered an LCMS elementary school. 3rd grade teacher Arnold Batjhe was  a River Forest Teacher.  John Damm asked for a teaching vicarage from the St. Louis seminary. His request was granted and became my 4th grade teacher. Teacher Alan Steinberg was a RF graduate who later taught church history at Concordia Bronxville.  Teacher Herbert Geisler became and high school principle and was later ordained. Teacher Robert Schnable was a master teacher who went on to teach philosophy at the Sr. College, be president of Concordia, Bronxville and later, President of Valpo.

Not one of these men ever mentioned anything about  an "order of creation" structure where boys/men have authority in relation to girls/men in the home and church. The reason is simply that the LCMS had not yet published any writings by Fritz Zerbst. His understanding of the order of creation and the order of redemption did not become part of LCMS teaching until suffrage for women in the church surfaced as a critical issue in the church (1968-69). 

In time layer upon layer of natural human reason contributed to the order of creation becoming a "doctrine" and/or a biblical topic. I do  not know when or where you studied to become a deaconess, so I have no way of knowing what you were taught.  I know that LCMS seminary professors teach student that the order of creation structure is biblical.  My files contain Bible Studies, essays, articles, interviews and books by current seminary professors, members of the Doctrinal Review Committee, the Commission on Theology and Church Relations and synodical officers supporting the Zerbst understanding of the order of creation and woman/wives subordination to man.   

The service of women in the church is an issue that has contributed to division within the LCMS.  A fall out is how the Valpo deaconess program became suspect.  I can attest to the fact that my Valpo professors (58-60) were confessional Lutherans grounded in Scripture.  Zerbst's understanding of the order of creation had not yet surfaced at Valpo or Concordia Seminary, St. Louis where my husband was a student.  The decision to grant women suffrage was considered heterodox by a significant number of professors at Springfield who maintained the Bible taught men had "natural precedence" by birth."

On the basis on my study and experience the fallout from all this is that the Valpo deaconess program moved to the left and the order of creation assumed doctrinal status at RF, St Louis and FW.  Rather than an open study of God's will for the life of man and woman in the church and home, including the service of deaconesses in the church, a division took place that remains unresolved. While Valpo deaconess graduates were formerly welcomed and called to serve within the LCMS, it is my understanding that there is vetting process that does not apply to women who study at RF, FW and St. Louis. I recall being at worship in an LCMS congregation when an RF deaconess was introduced as a deaconess "who knows her place in the church."

It's a troubling sad story.

Marie Meyer 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 11, 2021, 06:35:43 PM
I recall being at worship in an LCMS congregation when an RF deaconess was introduced as a deaconess "who knows her place in the church."

The RF deaconess at St. Peter's is active in Lutherans for Racial Justice.  She's happy in that place and at our place in the Church.  Who in the world was giving that introduction?

Dave Benke

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 11, 2021, 09:05:45 PM
The complex history of the service of deaconesses in the LCMS can be found in this book (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052NMD5K/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0).  I disagree that Valpo deaconesses are silently being dismissed with respect to this history.  It is well documented in this book from the standpoint of those who personally experienced the theological shift at Valpo and sought to form a new organization for deaconesses who chose to remain true to LCMS doctrine.

I am so grateful for the solid theological training I received in the program I studied within (CTSFW) and am enjoying immensely the current opportunity I have to teach deaconess classes at Concordia-Chicago.  Some fabulous women are coming through the program with a desire to serve in a manner that aligns with the confession of faith of their church body.

Like the Buckeye deaconess, I am profoundly grateful for solid biblical education from the time I entered an LCMS elementary school. 3rd grade teacher Arnold Batjhe was  a River Forest Teacher.  John Damm asked for a teaching vicarage from the St. Louis seminary. His request was granted and became my 4th grade teacher. Teacher Alan Steinberg was a RF graduate who later taught church history at Concordia Bronxville.  Teacher Herbert Geisler became and high school principle and was later ordained. Teacher Robert Schnable was a master teacher who went on to teach philosophy at the Sr. College, be president of Concordia, Bronxville and later, President of Valpo.

Not one of these men ever mentioned anything about  an "order of creation" structure where boys/men have authority in relation to girls/men in the home and church. The reason is simply that the LCMS had not yet published any writings by Fritz Zerbst. His understanding of the order of creation and the order of redemption did not become part of LCMS teaching until suffrage for women in the church surfaced as a critical issue in the church (1968-69). 

In time layer upon layer of natural human reason contributed to the order of creation becoming a "doctrine" and/or a biblical topic. I do  not know when or where you studied to become a deaconess, so I have no way of knowing what you were taught.  I know that LCMS seminary professors teach student that the order of creation structure is biblical.  My files contain Bible Studies, essays, articles, interviews and books by current seminary professors, members of the Doctrinal Review Committee, the Commission on Theology and Church Relations and synodical officers supporting the Zerbst understanding of the order of creation and woman/wives subordination to man.   

The service of women in the church is an issue that has contributed to division within the LCMS.  A fall out is how the Valpo deaconess program became suspect.  I can attest to the fact that my Valpo professors (58-60) were confessional Lutherans grounded in Scripture.  Zerbst's understanding of the order of creation had not yet surfaced at Valpo or Concordia Seminary, St. Louis where my husband was a student.  The decision to grant women suffrage was considered heterodox by a significant number of professors at Springfield who maintained the Bible taught men had "natural precedence" by birth."

On the basis on my study and experience the fallout from all this is that the Valpo deaconess program moved to the left and the order of creation assumed doctrinal status at RF, St Louis and FW.  Rather than an open study of God's will for the life of man and woman in the church and home, including the service of deaconesses in the church, a division took place that remains unresolved. While Valpo deaconess graduates were formerly welcomed and called to serve within the LCMS, it is my understanding that there is vetting process that does not apply to women who study at RF, FW and St. Louis. I recall being at worship in an LCMS congregation when an RF deaconess was introduced as a deaconess "who knows her place in the church."

It's a troubling sad story.

Marie Meyer

I believe in the orders of creation.  I am superintendent of our parochial school.  I have never mentioned anything of "the orders of creation" to third or fourth graders either.  Because they are third and fourth graders.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 12, 2021, 07:01:41 AM
There is an article in The Lutheran Study Bible (p. 1291) that describes the background and development of the term order/s of creation. As general editor, I researched and wrote the article to fill in gaps for understanding the term, which is in common use in the synod.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2021, 09:21:52 AM
There is an article in The Lutheran Study Bible (p. 1291) that describes the background and development of the term order/s of creation. As general editor, I researched and wrote the article to fill in gaps for understanding the term, which is in common use in the synod.

I went to page 1291 out of curiosity, as I regularly use the Lutheran Study Bible, but the article I found there was "The Lord of Hosts" nestled in the book of Jeremiah.  I then checked the Articles and Charts list and can't find a specific article on order or orders of creation.  There is an article on "Men and Women in the Bible" on page 1972 where order is discussed somewhat.  Am I just not seeing it?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 12, 2021, 09:26:18 AM
Pastor Bohler:
I have never mentioned anything of "the orders of creation" to third or fourth graders either.  Because they are third and fourth graders.
Me:
But what do you say to them about growing up male and female and the relationships between the sexes? Seems to me that would be something  children of that age should begin considering. And what do you say to them about their friends, family or people they may encounter in life who have different views of male, female and relationships?
Johnny Fourthgrade says “my uncle Louis and his friend Harry got married. We all went to the wedding.” And you say . . .
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 12, 2021, 09:41:14 AM
There is an article in The Lutheran Study Bible (p. 1291) that describes the background and development of the term order/s of creation. As general editor, I researched and wrote the article to fill in gaps for understanding the term, which is in common use in the synod.

I went to page 1291 out of curiosity, as I regularly use the Lutheran Study Bible, but the article I found there was "The Lord of Hosts" nestled in the book of Jeremiah.  I then checked the Articles and Charts list and can't find a specific article on order or orders of creation.  There is an article on "Men and Women in the Bible" on page 1972 where order is discussed somewhat.  Am I just not seeing it?

If you read the article on 1291, you will see a diachronic presentation of terms leading to order of creation.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 12, 2021, 09:43:11 AM
Pastor Bohler:
I have never mentioned anything of "the orders of creation" to third or fourth graders either.  Because they are third and fourth graders.
Me:
But what do you say to them about growing up male and female and the relationships between the sexes? Seems to me that would be something  children of that age should begin considering. And what do you say to them about their friends, family or people they may encounter in life who have different views of male, female and relationships?
Johnny Fourthgrade says “my uncle Louis and his friend Harry got married. We all went to the wedding.” And you say . . .

The point I was making, Rev. Austin, is that simply because Mrs. Meyer's 3rd and 4th grade teachers did not speak of "orders of creation" (using that very term) to her in their classrooms does not mean that such things were not taught in other ways.  8-year olds would have the subject addressed in other ways than a lecture on the orders of creation.  As to your question about Uncle Louis, I would tell them that two men cannot marry one another, nor can two women, but that God has set up marriage for a man and a woman.  That Uncle Louis and his friend Harry are mistaken in their thinking.  The few times the subject has come up, it is usually the other students who loudly interject that men cannot marry men (quite often with an eye roll).  They may be children but they do understand.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2021, 10:04:24 AM
There is an article in The Lutheran Study Bible (p. 1291) that describes the background and development of the term order/s of creation. As general editor, I researched and wrote the article to fill in gaps for understanding the term, which is in common use in the synod.

I went to page 1291 out of curiosity, as I regularly use the Lutheran Study Bible, but the article I found there was "The Lord of Hosts" nestled in the book of Jeremiah.  I then checked the Articles and Charts list and can't find a specific article on order or orders of creation.  There is an article on "Men and Women in the Bible" on page 1972 where order is discussed somewhat.  Am I just not seeing it?

If you read the article on 1291, you will see a diachronic presentation of terms leading to order of creation.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 12, 2021, 10:16:49 AM
Third and fourth graders? "If you are a girl, you will always be a girl, and a girl will always be a good thing to be. If you are a boy, you will always be a boy, and boy will always be a good thing to be. God made boys and girls different, and that is not only okay, it is a great thing. When they grow up, a boy and girl can get married and become husbands and wives and moms and dads, all because God made them different. But even if they don't get married, men and women are different, and that is a good thing."
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 12, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Marie, I wonder whether brief stories and photos of the three early deaconesses you mentioned might be scripted to create a Youtube video. I found that ALPB has a YouTube channel. Perhaps they would be willing to host the video. Here is a link to their channel:

https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011 (https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011)

The project you suggest is worth while for some one who knows how to create a You tube video. I do not.

For the present I am focused on a study of how "The order of creation" became a biblical topic in the LCMS.  Prior to the 1955  translation and CPH publication of Fritz Zerbst's  paper, The Office of Woman, "THE Order of Creation" and "THE Order of Redemption" did not appear in LCMS writings. 

Zerbt's claim that man and woman differ from one another in terms of rank in the God ordained immutable order of creation structure has taken on a life of its own within the LCMS. Today, The Order of Redemption is said to affirm and sanctify The Order of Creation structure in the church and home.  Formerly, the claim was made that the structure does not apply in society. I recently viewed a course lecture where a seminary professor took issue with the CTCR claim that the order of creation does not apply beyond the church and home.  According to this professor the created difference in rank must also apply in society.

For the present I will continue to organize the numerous LCMS writings on The order of creation that  I have gathered.  Currently I am also work reading Luthers Works on Genesis, the Gospels of John and the Campanion Volume,  Introduction to the Exegetical Writings.

Marie Meyey

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 12, 2021, 01:38:34 PM
But what do you say to them about growing up male and female and the relationships between the sexes? Seems to me that would be something  children of that age should begin considering. And what do you say to them about their friends, family or people they may encounter in life who have different views of male, female and relationships?


There is a difference between being biologically male or female (generally under the term "sex"); and society's expectations of being masculine or feminine (generally under the term "gender").


I've been trying to surface Greek and Hebrew words that relate to "masculine," "manly," "feminine" and "effeminate." One such word is גֶּבֶר, which BDB defines as: "man as strong, disting. fr. women, children, and non-combatants whom he is to defend, chiefly poetic." That is a word that describes a gender role.


Next is to see how it is used in the OT.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 13, 2021, 12:31:02 PM
Marie, I wonder whether brief stories and photos of the three early deaconesses you mentioned might be scripted to create a Youtube video. I found that ALPB has a YouTube channel. Perhaps they would be willing to host the video. Here is a link to their channel:

https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011 (https://youtube.com/user/alpb2011)

The project you suggest is worth while for some one who knows how to create a You tube video. I do not.

For the present I am focused on a study of how "The order of creation" became a biblical topic in the LCMS.  Prior to the 1955  translation and CPH publication of Fritz Zerbst's  paper, The Office of Woman, "THE Order of Creation" and "THE Order of Redemption" did not appear in LCMS writings. 

Zerbt's claim that man and woman differ from one another in terms of rank in the God ordained immutable order of creation structure has taken on a life of its own within the LCMS. Today, The Order of Redemption is said to affirm and sanctify The Order of Creation structure in the church and home.  Formerly, the claim was made that the structure does not apply in society. I recently viewed a course lecture where a seminary professor took issue with the CTCR claim that the order of creation does not apply beyond the church and home.  According to this professor the created difference in rank must also apply in society.

For the present I will continue to organize the numerous LCMS writings on The order of creation that  I have gathered.  Currently I am also work reading Luthers Works on Genesis, the Gospels of John and the Campanion Volume,  Introduction to the Exegetical Writings.

Marie Meyey

If there is a deaconess out there who would like to work on scripts for the lives of these three deaconesses, I could edit the videos.

Marie, "order of creation" is a dogmatic term. The earliest example I found previously was in Thomas Aquinas. You might check dogmatic writings in the LCMS. I looked in Baier's Compendium and did not see it, though there was some related talk in one of his last loci on society/estates.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 13, 2021, 12:44:18 PM

Marie, "order of creation" is a dogmatic term. The earliest example I found previously was in Thomas Aquinas. You might check dogmatic writings in the LCMS. I looked in Baier's Compendium and did not see it, though there was some related talk in one of his last loci on society/estates.
Pr. Engelbrecht, may I bother you for the Thomas Aquinas reference(s)? I'm curious to see how he uses the expression.

Thanks, and peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 13, 2021, 12:59:32 PM
In some ways looking for the introduction of a term can miss the point, whether that word is homosexual (from another thread) or “order of creation.” Some things nobody talked about because it went without saying. Things like sex between members of the same sex being a sin or men being the heads of household were so obvious people didn’t waste ink on them. Only when a movement to question or undermine prior accepted practice gained steam did people have to explain why things were the way they’d always been. Inevitably that gives the appearance of inventing new teachings. And inevitably it involves errors and differences here and there as people come up with variations on what teaching underlies the universal practice.

Heterosexual shouldn’t even be a word. Nor should cisgender. The invention of such words are simply ways to normalize what is abnormal. Some people only have one lung. That’s a shame. But I don’t refer to myself as a member of the two-lung community. Having two lungs is just being normal. Deviations from normal need a separate term. Normal should should be enough to describe the normal. But that is the whole problem; claiming there is such a thing as normal decenters, others, or “silences the voices” of atypical people. So we all have to pretend nothing is normal or abnormal even it means pretending we aren’t sure what our body parts are for or whether men can breastfeed babies.

St. Paul refers ascribes doctrinal significance to the order of creation whether he used the phrase or not. Christians never had an issue distinguishing men from women and assigning them different roles until the 20th Century. So it makes sense that terms and lines of reasoning justifying the prior practice would not gain much currency until then. If nudism becomes mainstream, I’ll probably have to start teaching more about why Christians wear clothes. But I’m not going waste a lot of time on that teaching or even bother to think it through until pushback on that point becomes a significant problem. With feminism and the lgbtq movement, the church was confronted with a novel rejection of standard teaching and practice. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 13, 2021, 01:27:46 PM

Marie, "order of creation" is a dogmatic term. The earliest example I found previously was in Thomas Aquinas. You might check dogmatic writings in the LCMS. I looked in Baier's Compendium and did not see it, though there was some related talk in one of his last loci on society/estates.
Pr. Engelbrecht, may I bother you for the Thomas Aquinas reference(s)? I'm curious to see how he uses the expression.

Thanks, and peace,
Michael

Michael, the reference in the Study Bible article is to Summa I V.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 13, 2021, 04:34:13 PM

Marie, "order of creation" is a dogmatic term. The earliest example I found previously was in Thomas Aquinas. You might check dogmatic writings in the LCMS. I looked in Baier's Compendium and did not see it, though there was some related talk in one of his last loci on society/estates.
Pr. Engelbrecht, may I bother you for the Thomas Aquinas reference(s)? I'm curious to see how he uses the expression.

Thanks, and peace,
Michael

Michael, the reference in the Study Bible article is to Summa I V.

I question whether "the order of creation" is a dogmatic term.  It is my understanding that Thomas Aquinas was influenced by Greek philosophers who understood the laws of nature that worked from the top down.   

According to the recent LCMS statements on God's order of creation, God is reasoned to work as God in creation from those who have "natural precedence by birth." Since Eve was created after Adam and for Adam, we "know" that God does not work or speak as authoritatively through a woman as God works and speaks through men.  Men/husbands represent and speak for God in ways that woman/wives cannot.  Why not? Men, as God's designated authoritative interpreters of the Bible, know God's will for women in the church and whom.  In short, God is bound to man's place the order of creation. 

I submit that God, confessed by Christians as the Triune God, turned natural reason upside down when God the Father sent God the Son to be born of the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.   Luther in his Magnificat Commentary states that Mary teaches how to know God, if we would but listen to her. That God the Father sent God the Son to become the Son of Man by the power of God the Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity working as God through a young lowly Jewish virgin, is beyond human understanding.  Unless God the Holy Spirit recreates human men and women from within through the Means of Grace, we, men and women, will think it "unnatural" for the Lord God of Hosts, the Lord God of Creation, to have become become the Son of Man from one of God's creation, the young virgin Mary. 

According to Luther Mary understood that her conception of God the Son, her carrying Him in her woman, giving birth to Him and feeding Him at her breast was NOT about her.  It was about the nature of the Triune God who works as God in and through the lowly, from those who  are the least of those among us.  Lutherans refer to the nature of God to have worked at creation and at the Incarnation and to work "ex-nihilo."  (See Luther's Magnificat Commentary.) The creation of woman from and for man was about God, not man's natural priority and inherent authority over woman.  It reveals the nature of God to respond to man's need for a true human counterpart so that man and woman could together accomplish God's purpose for creation. 

God's work of creating Eve from Adam, like God's work of the Incarnation of the Son of God and the Son of Man from Mary, did not place Adam over Eve just as the incarnation of the Son of God from Mary did not lift her up above any woman or man. The birth of God the Son from the virgin Mary was a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to the Greeks; the Jews stumbled when they misused revealed knowledge of God to deny that Jesus born of  the lowly virgin Mary could be the promised Messiah. To the Greeks it was incomprehensible that the  God who was Lord of all creation would appear on earth as a human man born in a lowly Jewish town.   

I submit that the LCMS understanding of an immutable Pre-Fall order of creation structure where spiritual authority is inherent in man's assigned position in relation to woman is based on natural reason. The LCMS order of creation structure is based on the presupposition that God's creation of Adam before Eve reveals the nature of the Triune God to work authoritatively as God through those who are first not those who second or last.  Jesus had to remind his disciples that in God's economy the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.  St. Paul struggled to convey the truth that God could and would work in and through the Gentiles just as God worked through the Jews, the people first chosen as "My People."   

Might the birth of Jesus from the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit without the participation of a human man reveal the nature of the Lord God of Hosts to work as God in and through women just as God works in and through men by the Means of Grace?


 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 15, 2021, 12:42:09 PM
I would like to share the story of Deaconess Martha Boss as it appears in theDeaconess Martha Boss Commemorative Book published by the Lutheran Church-Kong.  Martha Boss was one of my role models.

"On October  14, 1945, Martha accepted the call to work as missionary in China. She arrived in Hubei with Rev and Mrs. Wilbert Holt in January, 1946. She learned Mandarin while working in hospitals and nursing schools. She taught the nurses  English medical terms and led them Bible study and prayers...... 

"In 1949, the communist party began their rule in China.  Together with another LCMS missionary, Lorraine Behling, she arrive in Hong Kong  December 9, 1949 on the last possible flight out of China,  In Hong Kong the two women joined the missionary workers, Rev Holt and Deaconess Gertrude Simon.....

"As they were waiting for direction from the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the four missionaries, Martha Boss, the Rev Wilbert Holt, Gertrude Simon and Lorraine Behling, saw the plight of the Chinese refugees who were flooding into Hong Kong... The four missionaries stayed in Hong Kong and started their work among the refugees which later become the Lutheran Church-Hong Kong Synod....A seminary was started for the training of Chinese pastors.  They also started the many women's Bible Classes, English Bible classes, and helped raise funds for the mission work...."

In 1972 The daughter of one of the refugees Martha taught became a deaconess. The hard cover book I have commemorating Martha includes the May 1972 letter  found in the English Bible Martha gave the young woman on the day of her consecration.

 Dear Terasa, May this book be your guide and light throughout your life.  May the Lord bless you richly and make you a blessing to many people in our church.      The prayer of your God mother,  Martha Boss   

Deaconess Martha included two Bible passages, I Timothy 4:12  and I John 2, 15a and 17  in the May 1972 to the newly consecrated deaconess.

During Martha's 30 years of service in the Orient, Martha was granted a number of furloughs. She used the time to give talks about the mission work on mainland China and Hong Kong.   Deaconess Martha Boss was the first woman missionary to receive the Christ Award from Concordia Seminary, St Louis.  She also received an award from Concordia Teachers College, River Forest..."She certainly was a most dedicated person in her work and loved every minute of it....always loving and sharing everything she."

On August 4, 1973, a year after Martha Boss wrote to the her refugee goddaughter  who was consecrated to the diaconate, Martha died in a car accident on the way to a Valparaiso Lutheran Deaconess Association conference. She was buried at Bethlehem Lutheran Church, Cleveland Ohio where the resurrection of her Lord was celebrated.  A simple stone marks her burial place; "Martha Boss, 1913-1873, Missionary to Hong-Kong - Servant of Jesus Christ."

I do not know if the hard cover Deaconess Martha Boss Commemorative book, written in Mandarin and English, was placed at the Concordia Historical Institute.  It's a story that needs telling.  Today, Deaconess Carol Halter, continues to serve in Hong Kong.  The LCMS Annual lists Deaconess Halter's college/university as "other."  For the record, Deaconess Halter graduated from Valparaiso in 1975. 

Marie Meyer

 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: DeHall1 on March 15, 2021, 01:27:43 PM
Deaconess Halter's bio on LCMS.ORG:

https://www.lcms.org/halter

According to LCMS.ORG, she graduated from the Valparaiso University Deaconess program in 1965.

I'm not familiar with "The LCMS Annual"...Is this the Lutheran Annual published by CPH?   
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 15, 2021, 01:29:35 PM
I would like to share the story of Deaconess Martha Boss as it appears in theDeaconess Martha Boss Commemorative Book published by the Lutheran Church-Kong.  Martha Boss was one of my role models.

"On October  14, 1945, Martha accepted the call to work as missionary in China. She arrived in Hubei with Rev and Mrs. Wilbert Holt in January, 1946. She learned Mandarin while working in hospitals and nursing schools. She taught the nurses  English medical terms and led them Bible study and prayers...... 

"In 1949, the communist party began their rule in China.  Together with another LCMS missionary, Lorraine Behling, she arrive in Hong Kong  December 9, 1949 on the last possible flight out of China,  In Hong Kong the two women joined the missionary workers, Rev Holt and Deaconess Gertrude Simon.....

"As they were waiting for direction from the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the four missionaries, Martha Boss, the Rev Wilbert Holt, Gertrude Simon and Lorraine Behling, saw the plight of the Chinese refugees who were flooding into Hong Kong... The four missionaries stayed in Hong Kong and started their work among the refugees which later become the Lutheran Church-Hong Kong Synod....A seminary was started for the training of Chinese pastors.  They also started the many women's Bible Classes, English Bible classes, and helped raise funds for the mission work...."

In 1972 The daughter of one of the refugees Martha taught became a deaconess. The hard cover book I have commemorating Martha includes the May 1972 letter  found in the English Bible Martha gave the young woman on the day of her consecration.

 Dear Terasa, May this book be your guide and light throughout your life.  May the Lord bless you richly and make you a blessing to many people in our church.      The prayer of your God mother,  Martha Boss   

Deaconess Martha included two Bible passages, I Timothy 4:12  and I John 2, 15a and 17  in the May 1972 to the newly consecrated deaconess.

During Martha's 30 years of service in the Orient, Martha was granted a number of furloughs. She used the time to give talks about the mission work on mainland China and Hong Kong.   Deaconess Martha Boss was the first woman missionary to receive the Christ Award from Concordia Seminary, St Louis.  She also received an award from Concordia Teachers College, River Forest..."She certainly was a most dedicated person in her work and loved every minute of it....always loving and sharing everything she."

On August 4, 1973, a year after Martha Boss wrote to the her refugee goddaughter  who was consecrated to the diaconate, Martha died in a car accident on the way to a Valparaiso Lutheran Deaconess Association conference. She was buried at Bethlehem Lutheran Church, Cleveland Ohio where the resurrection of her Lord was celebrated.  A simple stone marks her burial place; "Martha Boss, 1913-1873, Missionary to Hong-Kong - Servant of Jesus Christ."

I do not know if the hard cover Deaconess Martha Boss Commemorative book, written in Mandarin and English, was placed at the Concordia Historical Institute.  It's a story that needs telling.  Today, Deaconess Carol Halter, continues to serve in Hong Kong.  The LCMS Annual lists Deaconess Halter's college/university as "other."  For the record, Deaconess Halter graduated from Valparaiso in 1975. 

Marie Meyer

Interesting story! Thanks for sharing. I'll have to share it with my deaconess student daughter.

I couldn't help but think of conditions as they are now in Hong Kong.  In those days it was a colony of Great Britain, but now is part of Communist China, which has of late exerted much more control over its citizens. As recently reported in the Taipei Times: "China’s legislature this month approved changes to election rules in the territory that will virtually eliminate the influence of any political opposition, bringing strong criticism from the US and the UK. China had pledged to allow the territory to retain freedoms not permitted elsewhere in the country for 50 years, but its recent steps are seen as a betrayal."  I wonder what it is like right now for those who continue to minister in Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 15, 2021, 05:45:41 PM
Deaconess Halter's bio on LCMS.ORG:

https://www.lcms.org/halter

According to LCMS.ORG, she graduated from the Valparaiso University Deaconess program in 1965.

I'm not familiar with "The LCMS Annual"...Is this the Lutheran Annual published by CPH?

Yes, the Lutheran Annual as published by CPH is where Deaconess Halter is said to have graduated from "other."   

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2021, 05:57:39 PM
Deaconess Halter's bio on LCMS.ORG:

https://www.lcms.org/halter

According to LCMS.ORG, she graduated from the Valparaiso University Deaconess program in 1965.

I'm not familiar with "The LCMS Annual"...Is this the Lutheran Annual published by CPH?

Yes, the Lutheran Annual as published by CPH is where Deaconess Halter is said to have graduated from "other."   

Marie Meyer

I could be wrong, but I believe that such is how they list anyone's theological degree from other than a synodical school.  It is not a slap at Valpo.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 15, 2021, 06:00:26 PM
I would like to share the story of Deaconess Martha Boss as it appears in theDeaconess Martha Boss Commemorative Book published by the Lutheran Church-Kong.  Martha Boss was one of my role models.

"On October  14, 1945, Martha accepted the call to work as missionary in China. She arrived in Hubei with Rev and Mrs. Wilbert Holt in January, 1946. She learned Mandarin while working in hospitals and nursing schools. She taught the nurses  English medical terms and led them Bible study and prayers...... 

"In 1949, the communist party began their rule in China.  Together with another LCMS missionary, Lorraine Behling, she arrive in Hong Kong  December 9, 1949 on the last possible flight out of China,  In Hong Kong the two women joined the missionary workers, Rev Holt and Deaconess Gertrude Simon.....

"As they were waiting for direction from the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, the four missionaries, Martha Boss, the Rev Wilbert Holt, Gertrude Simon and Lorraine Behling, saw the plight of the Chinese refugees who were flooding into Hong Kong... The four missionaries stayed in Hong Kong and started their work among the refugees which later become the Lutheran Church-Hong Kong Synod....A seminary was started for the training of Chinese pastors.  They also started the many women's Bible Classes, English Bible classes, and helped raise funds for the mission work...."

In 1972 The daughter of one of the refugees Martha taught became a deaconess. The hard cover book I have commemorating Martha includes the May 1972 letter  found in the English Bible Martha gave the young woman on the day of her consecration.

 Dear Terasa, May this book be your guide and light throughout your life.  May the Lord bless you richly and make you a blessing to many people in our church.      The prayer of your God mother,  Martha Boss   

Deaconess Martha included two Bible passages, I Timothy 4:12  and I John 2, 15a and 17  in the May 1972 to the newly consecrated deaconess.

During Martha's 30 years of service in the Orient, Martha was granted a number of furloughs. She used the time to give talks about the mission work on mainland China and Hong Kong.   Deaconess Martha Boss was the first woman missionary to receive the Christ Award from Concordia Seminary, St Louis.  She also received an award from Concordia Teachers College, River Forest..."She certainly was a most dedicated person in her work and loved every minute of it....always loving and sharing everything she."

On August 4, 1973, a year after Martha Boss wrote to the her refugee goddaughter  who was consecrated to the diaconate, Martha died in a car accident on the way to a Valparaiso Lutheran Deaconess Association conference. She was buried at Bethlehem Lutheran Church, Cleveland Ohio where the resurrection of her Lord was celebrated.  A simple stone marks her burial place; "Martha Boss, 1913-1873, Missionary to Hong-Kong - Servant of Jesus Christ."

I do not know if the hard cover Deaconess Martha Boss Commemorative book, written in Mandarin and English, was placed at the Concordia Historical Institute.  It's a story that needs telling.  Today, Deaconess Carol Halter, continues to serve in Hong Kong.  The LCMS Annual lists Deaconess Halter's college/university as "other."  For the record, Deaconess Halter graduated from Valparaiso in 1975. 

Marie Meyer

Interesting story! Thanks for sharing. I'll have to share it with my deaconess student daughter.

I couldn't help but think of conditions as they are now in Hong Kong.  In those days it was a colony of Great Britain, but now is part of Communist China, which has of late exerted much more control over its citizens. As recently reported in the Taipei Times: "China’s legislature this month approved changes to election rules in the territory that will virtually eliminate the influence of any political opposition, bringing strong criticism from the US and the UK. China had pledged to allow the territory to retain freedoms not permitted elsewhere in the country for 50 years, but its recent steps are seen as a betrayal."  I wonder what it is like right now for those who continue to minister in Hong Kong.

FYI:  Former Concordia, St. Paul theology professor Richard Carter and his wife Miriam Otten Carter are currently serving in Hong Kong.  Rich teaches seminary students and his wife, my cousin Miriam, teaches Bible classes for women.  Rich and Miriam volunteered to serve in Hong Kong after he retired from teaching at Concordia, St. Paul.  They are both committed to their ministry in Hong Kong, but regret that the virus has not allowed them to visit with their children and grandchildren here in the States.

Marie Otten Meyer.

 


Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 16, 2021, 04:58:15 PM
Deaconess Halter's bio on LCMS.ORG:

https://www.lcms.org/halter

According to LCMS.ORG, she graduated from the Valparaiso University Deaconess program in 1965.

I'm not familiar with "The LCMS Annual"...Is this the Lutheran Annual published by CPH?

Yes, the Lutheran Annual as published by CPH is where Deaconess Halter is said to have graduated from "other."   

Marie Meyer

I could be wrong, but I believe that such is how they list anyone's theological degree from other than a synodical school.  It is not a slap at Valpo.

And my memory may be flawed. There was a time when Valpo deaconess graduates were part of the same LCMS call process as pastors and teachers. On "Call Day" pastors, teachers and Valpo deaconesses were handed a sealed envelope providing information about the congregation, school or synodical institution to which they were called.  My 1960 call was to Nazareth in down town Milwaukee.  I had never heard of the congregation, did not recognize the name of the pastor and had  never been to Milwaukee. Such was the call process for the seminaries, the two teacher colleges and Valpo deaconesses. My understanding is that my Valpo education and formation as an LCMS deaconess was in the same category as RF and Seward. My theology professors were ordained LCMS pastors. I cannot say for certain how the Annual referred to the school from which I graduated.  I think it may have been Valpo.

After my husband was ordained in 1963 I became a full time wife and mom.  For that reason I asked that my name be removed from the synodical roster.  I did maintain contact with the Lutheran Deaconess Association and witnessed how the Valpo deaconesses were gradually marginalized.  There were misunderstandings and hurts on all sides.

Marie Meyer

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 16, 2021, 05:09:48 PM
We recently watched a German made for-tv-film, "Luther and I" (2018 with English subtitles). It presents reasonably well as a drama but the film takes liberties with the history. Especially odd was the portrayal of Melanchthon as the steady and confrontational reformer over against a disoriented Luther.

I suppose they wanted to play up Luther's vulnerability to show just how vitally important was Katharina's contribution and role. That's valid, I think. But the relationships seemed out of balance. They do little to show Luther's substantial role as a pastor to the community and the evangelical counsel he offered to his wife. He is more like a disoriented prophet than a leading reformer, which Katharina helped him to sustain especially as she contributed to his health.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2021, 05:15:22 PM
Deaconess Halter's bio on LCMS.ORG:

https://www.lcms.org/halter

According to LCMS.ORG, she graduated from the Valparaiso University Deaconess program in 1965.

I'm not familiar with "The LCMS Annual"...Is this the Lutheran Annual published by CPH?

Yes, the Lutheran Annual as published by CPH is where Deaconess Halter is said to have graduated from "other."   

Marie Meyer

I could be wrong, but I believe that such is how they list anyone's theological degree from other than a synodical school.  It is not a slap at Valpo.

And my memory may be flawed. There was a time when Valpo deaconess graduates were part of the same LCMS call process as pastors and teachers. On "Call Day" pastors, teachers and Valpo deaconesses were handed a sealed envelope providing information about the congregation, school or synodical institution to which they were called.  My 1960 call was to Nazareth in down town Milwaukee.  I had never heard of the congregation, did not recognize the name of the pastor and had  never been to Milwaukee. Such was the call process for the seminaries, the two teacher colleges and Valpo deaconesses. My understanding is that my Valpo education and formation as an LCMS deaconess was in the same category as RF and Seward. My theology professors were ordained LCMS pastors. I cannot say for certain how the Annual referred to the school from which I graduated.  I think it may have been Valpo.

After my husband was ordained in 1963 I became a full time wife and mom.  For that reason I asked that my name be removed from the synodical roster.  I did maintain contact with the Lutheran Deaconess Association and witnessed how the Valpo deaconesses were gradually marginalized.  There were misunderstandings and hurts on all sides.

Marie Meyer

1960 was prior to the synodical rule that only synodically rostered (or those eligible for such rostering) could be called.  Perhaps what happened in your case in 1960 not longer was permitted when that rule changed?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 16, 2021, 05:24:03 PM
The history of the relationship between the LCMS and Valparaiso University has been replete with misunderstandings and hurts. The university was purchased in 1925 by the Lutheran University Association, then affiliated with the LCMS but not an integral part of the LCMS. From that purchase it was to be a Lutheran university but not a denominational school.


From it's early close ties with the LCMS, over the next century Valparaiso would become increasingly less closely aligned with the LCMS. Especially in the mid-twentieth century as the LCMS, ALC, and LCA first began to converge theologically and organizationally and then sharply diverge, Valpo was increasingly perceived by many in the LCMS as more closely aligned with the ALC and LCA and then, after the merger, the ELCA. No longer could it be presumed that the theology taught at Valpo would be virtually the same as that taught at LCMS Synodical schools.


The Valpo deaconess program and Valpo trained deaconess got caught in the crossfire of the increasing conflict between the major American Lutheran bodies. Most unfortunate. But can it perhaps be understood a little bit why the LCMS might become hesitant to simply accept without concern or question as rostered church professionals those whose training was done by a school over which it had no control and decreasing influence?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2021, 12:25:48 PM
My dad graduated from Valpo in the early 50's and taught at Houston Lutheran high school, then Denver Lutheran high school. He met my mom while colloquizing onto the LCMS teaching roster by taking summer classes at Concordia, Seward in 1960. I don't know if that was some new rule, but he wasn't on the roster by virtue of graduating from Valpo. When he got his Ph.D and went back to teach at Valpo he let his membership on the LCMS roster lapse, and though he worked hard to get Lutheran high graduates from all over the country to come to Valpo, he made clear to his secondary education majors that if they wanted to teach at a Lutheran high school they'd have to do some colloquy work.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 17, 2021, 03:20:11 PM
My dad graduated from Valpo in the early 50's and taught at Houston Lutheran high school, then Denver Lutheran high school. He met my mom while colloquizing onto the LCMS teaching roster by taking summer classes at Concordia, Seward in 1960. I don't know if that was some new rule, but he wasn't on the roster by virtue of graduating from Valpo. When he got his Ph.D and went back to teach at Valpo he let his membership on the LCMS roster lapse, and though he worked hard to get Lutheran high graduates from all over the country to come to Valpo, he made clear to his secondary education majors that if they wanted to teach at a Lutheran high school they'd have to do some colloquy work.

Peter, the history of Valpo in relation to the LCMS together with the history of how and when women might serve in the LCMS is complex.  Together my friend Geri and I attended St. Matthew parochial school, a New York City public high school for girls and Concordia Jr. college, Bronxville.  She went on to River Forest  hoping to teach physics in a Lutheran High School.  I went on to Valpo as a theology major in the deaconess program.

When calls were given in 1960, Geri was told women do not teach physics.  She was called to teach earth science at Martin Luther High School in NYC.  After two years at Martin Luther IBM recruited her in their computer science program.  With that began her career at IBM. She also left the LCMS teaching ministry.

Prior to my 1960 Valpo graduation, my professors suggested I go on to Concordia Seminary, St. Louis for a Master in Arts and Religion. My father offered to pay for my continued education.  Given that women could not even vote in their LCMS congregation no less teach religion at a Lutheran high school, I opted to take a call as parish deaconess until Bill got permission from the seminary for us to get married.  My dad was disappointed that I did not go to the seminary; however, since Bill and I had known each other from the time we were in our teens he was also delighted when Bill received seminary permission for us to marry in 1962.

From my perspective, the history of how, when and where LCMS women may serve in the church is complex and, at times confusing, to say the least.

Marie Meyer





Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2021, 03:38:01 PM
My dad graduated from Valpo in the early 50's and taught at Houston Lutheran high school, then Denver Lutheran high school. He met my mom while colloquizing onto the LCMS teaching roster by taking summer classes at Concordia, Seward in 1960. I don't know if that was some new rule, but he wasn't on the roster by virtue of graduating from Valpo. When he got his Ph.D and went back to teach at Valpo he let his membership on the LCMS roster lapse, and though he worked hard to get Lutheran high graduates from all over the country to come to Valpo, he made clear to his secondary education majors that if they wanted to teach at a Lutheran high school they'd have to do some colloquy work.

Peter, the history of Valpo in relation to the LCMS together with the history of how and when women might serve in the LCMS is complex.  Together my friend Geri and I attended St. Matthew parochial school, a New York City public high school for girls and Concordia Jr. college, Bronxville.  She went on to River Forest  hoping to teach physics in a Lutheran High School.  I went on to Valpo as a theology major in the deaconess program.

When calls were given in 1960, Geri was told women do not teach physics.  She was called to teach earth science at Martin Luther High School in NYC.  After two years at Martin Luther IBM recruited her in their computer science program.  With that began her career at IBM. She also left the LCMS teaching ministry.

Prior to my 1960 Valpo graduation, my professors suggested I go on to Concordia Seminary, St. Louis for a Master in Arts and Religion. My father offered to pay for my continued education.  Given that women could not even vote in their LCMS congregation no less teach religion at a Lutheran high school, I opted to take a call as parish deaconess until Bill got permission from the seminary for us to get married.  My dad was disappointed that I did not go to the seminary; however, since Bill and I had known each other from the time we were in our teens he was also delighted when Bill received seminary permission for us to marry in 1962.

From my perspective, the history of how, when and where LCMS women may serve in the church is complex and, at times confusing, to say the least.

Marie Meyer
I offered the example of my dad purely to comment on Valpo and the LCMS roster. The implication upstream seemed to be that the synod had done something odd by listing Valpo deaconesses under "other" rather than under synodical schools.   
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 17, 2021, 03:51:21 PM
@mariemeyer........Your marriage in 1962 may have paved the way for others
After my first year at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis I was allowed to get married
in 1965.  If I remember correctly two things were necessary: 1) You needed at least
a B grade point average  2) Your parents had to sign that they would be responsible
for any payment of fees not met by you.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2021, 03:56:20 PM
My dad graduated from Valpo in the early 50's and taught at Houston Lutheran high school, then Denver Lutheran high school. He met my mom while colloquizing onto the LCMS teaching roster by taking summer classes at Concordia, Seward in 1960. I don't know if that was some new rule, but he wasn't on the roster by virtue of graduating from Valpo. When he got his Ph.D and went back to teach at Valpo he let his membership on the LCMS roster lapse, and though he worked hard to get Lutheran high graduates from all over the country to come to Valpo, he made clear to his secondary education majors that if they wanted to teach at a Lutheran high school they'd have to do some colloquy work.
Peter, the history of Valpo in relation to the LCMS together with the history of how and when women might serve in the LCMS is complex.  Together my friend Geri and I attended St. Matthew parochial school, a New York City public high school for girls and Concordia Jr. college, Bronxville.  She went on to River Forest  hoping to teach physics in a Lutheran High School.  I went on to Valpo as a theology major in the deaconess program.

When calls were given in 1960, Geri was told women do not teach physics.  She was called to teach earth science at Martin Luther High School in NYC.  After two years at Martin Luther IBM recruited her in their computer science program.  With that began her career at IBM. She also left the LCMS teaching ministry.

Prior to my 1960 Valpo graduation, my professors suggested I go on to Concordia Seminary, St. Louis for a Master in Arts and Religion. My father offered to pay for my continued education.  Given that women could not even vote in their LCMS congregation no less teach religion at a Lutheran high school, I opted to take a call as parish deaconess until Bill got permission from the seminary for us to get married.  My dad was disappointed that I did not go to the seminary; however, since Bill and I had known each other from the time we were in our teens he was also delighted when Bill received seminary permission for us to marry in 1962.

From my perspective, the history of how, when and where LCMS women may serve in the church is complex and, at times confusing, to say the least.

Marie Meyer
I offered the example of my dad purely to comment on Valpo and the LCMS roster. The implication upstream seemed to be that the synod had done something odd by listing Valpo deaconesses under "other" rather than under synodical schools.

One would have to check the Lutheran Annuals when Marie was listed as a Deaconess to know how it was done before the Valpo Deaconess Program was disenfranchised. My guess is that it said "Valpo" just as non LCMS seminaries are now indicated in the ordained pastors listing.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2021, 03:59:18 PM
My Uncle Tom, who was featured in a recent FL article, attended seminary at St. Louis in the 50's as a married man, though I believe he needed permission.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2021, 04:01:01 PM
My Uncle Tom, who was featured in a recent FL article, attended seminary at St. Louis in the 50's as a married man, though I believe he needed permission.

Was he a veteran? After WW II, the sem allowed returning married veterans to enroll.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 17, 2021, 04:25:02 PM
The influx of married students in the Fall of 1965, prompted Athletic Director
Eldon "Pete" Peterson to allow them to be known as Dorm X and participate
in Intramural athletics as one team.  He anointed me as the Captain of the
married men team and we won some championship trophies during 1965-66
school year.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 17, 2021, 04:44:11 PM
When I was looking at ALC seminaries in 1972, married students were allowed to attend; but only Wartburg had housing for married students on campus. The other two, Luther and Capital, offered to help us find housing. We went to Wartburg. Not only did they have an apartment complex, they also had a housing development for couples with children. They also opened up a trailer park for even more married student and family housing.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2021, 05:44:07 PM
My Uncle Tom, who was featured in a recent FL article, attended seminary at St. Louis in the 50's as a married man, though I believe he needed permission.

Was he a veteran? After WW II, the sem allowed returning married veterans to enroll.
No, he wasn't a veteran. He had gone to RF to be a teacher, then went back to seminary not too many years later. Not sure the details, but at least one year in st. Louis he lived in cinder block, one-bedroom public housing with his wife and hit younger brother, also a seminarian, who slept on a lawn chair in the main room. Even in those circumstances, the younger brother recalls how one time my Uncle Tom brought home a homeless teenager (who was either pregnant or had a newborn, I can't remember) on the theory that they could provide the care she needed. I think my aunt set him straight on that and they helped the poor girl find someplace else more suitable. My uncle had a heart of gold, but as big and strong as he was on compassion, practicality might have been what they call a "potential growth area" of similar proportions.

My other uncle, the one who slept on the lawn chair, only made it through two years of sem. He was simultaneously going to seminary and medical school to become a medical missionary, but when it came time for vicarage the sem said he needed to pick a lane and drive in it, and he dropped out of sem and continued with medical school. He went through the training to be an international medical missionary for synod, but when they were awaiting assignment in London his wife gave birth to their eldest and they decided to return to the states. He worked in private private practice, then for the CDC, and finished his career in Saudi Arabia as an administrator of an ARAMCO hospital. The one great quote I remember from an article in the Lutheran Witness about his decision to go overseas as a medical missionary was something like, "What I will be doing is 95% medical and 5% theological, but my reasons for doing it are 95% theological and 5% medical."   

Women's history in the LCMS, including and perhaps especially for clergy families, is filled with examples of patience and longsuffering.   
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 18, 2021, 11:22:34 AM
The influx of married students in the Fall of 1965, prompted Athletic Director
Eldon "Pete" Peterson to allow them to be known as Dorm X and participate
in Intramural athletics as one team.  He anointed me as the Captain of the
married men team and we won some championship trophies during 1965-66
school year.

I inadvertently  shifted this thread to how the Seminaries controlled when students could get married.

The intent was to call attention to an LCMS woman, a gifted math and physics RF graduate, who in 1960 was not called to teach physics at a Lutheran high school. The rational, women could not possibly be skilled in math and physics.

For the record, out of 2,000 girls who took an entrance exam to Hunter College High School, she had the second highest score. At our high school graduation she was advised to attend colleges like Cornell, Smith and Vassar.  She stuck to her decision to attend Bronxville Concordia Jr. College and go on the River Forest.  While at Bronxville she tutored  the engineering students.

At the time she could not have voted at her home church.  This is part of the LCMS women's history.

Marie Meyer

 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 18, 2021, 11:40:47 AM
Of course, as you know, Mrs. Meyer, the issue of women voting or not had nothing to do with intelligence but rather was one of theology.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 18, 2021, 12:59:10 PM
The influx of married students in the Fall of 1965, prompted Athletic Director
Eldon "Pete" Peterson to allow them to be known as Dorm X and participate
in Intramural athletics as one team.  He anointed me as the Captain of the
married men team and we won some championship trophies during 1965-66
school year.

I inadvertently  shifted this thread to how the Seminaries controlled when students could get married.

The intent was to call attention to an LCMS woman, a gifted math and physics RF graduate, who in 1960 was not called to teach physics at a Lutheran high school. The rational, women could not possibly be skilled in math and physics.

For the record, out of 2,000 girls who took an entrance exam to Hunter College High School, she had the second highest score. At our high school graduation she was advised to attend colleges like Cornell, Smith and Vassar.  She stuck to her decision to attend Bronxville Concordia Jr. College and go on the River Forest.  While at Bronxville she tutored  the engineering students.

At the time she could not have voted at her home church.  This is part of the LCMS women's history.

Marie Meyer
I doubt that is a fair assessment of the rationale. People weren't stupid in 1960; they knew women could possibly be gifted in math and physics. Rather, they probably felt that there were other factors in play beyond test scores and abilities, including social factors or policies that may have been unjust. I'm not saying they were right to deny your friend the chance to teach the upper levels, but I am saying that I don't believe their reasoning was that she couldn't possibly have been skilled enough at math and physics. She had the test scores and grades to prove it.

As to why she couldn't vote in her congregation, what does that have to do with her math and physics abilities? Whether we're talking about men or women voting, IQ is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 18, 2021, 02:32:54 PM
The influx of married students in the Fall of 1965, prompted Athletic Director
Eldon "Pete" Peterson to allow them to be known as Dorm X and participate
in Intramural athletics as one team.  He anointed me as the Captain of the
married men team and we won some championship trophies during 1965-66
school year.

I inadvertently  shifted this thread to how the Seminaries controlled when students could get married.

The intent was to call attention to an LCMS woman, a gifted math and physics RF graduate, who in 1960 was not called to teach physics at a Lutheran high school. The rational, women could not possibly be skilled in math and physics.

For the record, out of 2,000 girls who took an entrance exam to Hunter College High School, she had the second highest score. At our high school graduation she was advised to attend colleges like Cornell, Smith and Vassar.  She stuck to her decision to attend Bronxville Concordia Jr. College and go on the River Forest.  While at Bronxville she tutored  the engineering students.

At the time she could not have voted at her home church.  This is part of the LCMS women's history.

Marie Meyer
I doubt that is a fair assessment of the rationale. People weren't stupid in 1960; they knew women could possibly be gifted in math and physics. Rather, they probably felt that there were other factors in play beyond test scores and abilities, including social factors or policies that may have been unjust. I'm not saying they were right to deny your friend the chance to teach the upper levels, but I am saying that I don't believe their reasoning was that she couldn't possibly have been skilled enough at math and physics. She had the test scores and grades to prove it.

As to why she couldn't vote in her congregation, what does that have to do with her math and physics abilities? Whether we're talking about men or women voting, IQ is irrelevant.

Peter: Clarification - In 1960 my friend was not called to teach physics at a Lutheran High School because she was a woman. She was told up front that women do not teach physics and math, so she was called to teach the easiest high school science class, earth science. Her proficiency was not in question

She was not allowed to vote in her LCMS congregation for one reason.  She was a woman not a man. 

I dismissed the 1960 recommendation of my Valpo professors to pursue a Masters in Religion from the St. Louis seminary because there were no opportunities for women to teach religion at a Lutheran High School.  I was not allowed to vote in the congregation to which I was called to serve because I was a woman.

There is so much more to the history of what LCMS women experienced as they pursued various avenues of service within our synod.  I respectfully suggest listening with an open mind to a reality that may just be outside your life experience.

Marie Meyer 

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 18, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
In 1969, the LCMS in Convention allowed women to vote in congregational meetings.
However, it was an issue to be decided by each individual parish whether to have women
vote.  It seemed like some rural parishes did not adopt women voting rights in their
constitution, while many urban and suburban congregations made the change to allow
women voters.

From a 21st century vantage point some LCMS churches have allowed women to serve on parish
boards with the exception of the Board of Elders.  In Worship some LCMS churches have women
Lectors who read the O.T. lesson and the Epistle lesson.   
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 18, 2021, 03:22:35 PM
That women couldn’t vote in LCMS congregations back in the day is news to nobody.

Certain avenues of serving the Lord were officially or unofficially closed to women. When bogus rationales for that are put forward, I propose more plausible ones. That’s what people listening with an open mind do.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 18, 2021, 05:55:35 PM
That women couldn’t vote in LCMS congregations back in the day is news to nobody.

Certain avenues of serving the Lord were officially or unofficially closed to women. When bogus rationales for that are put forward, I propose more plausible ones. That’s what people listening with an open mind do.

Peter, I do not wish to misunderstand you.  Are you suggesting that I have put bogus rationals forward  in my recent posts?

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 18, 2021, 08:46:27 PM
That women couldn’t vote in LCMS congregations back in the day is news to nobody.

Certain avenues of serving the Lord were officially or unofficially closed to women. When bogus rationales for that are put forward, I propose more plausible ones. That’s what people listening with an open mind do.

Peter, I do not wish to misunderstand you.  Are you suggesting that I have put bogus rationals forward  in my recent posts?

Marie Meyer
Yes. You said the rationale for your friend not getting the physics gig was because the decision makers thought a woman couldn’t possibly be gifted at math and physics. That was a bogus explanation. A far more plausible explanation, which I put forward and you agreed with, is that there were various social expectations and policies in place arguing against it, which may or may not have been unjust. Every single person involved knew it was quite possible for a woman to be gifted in math and physics. Ascribing basic stupidity to the people making decisions doesn’t make for a plausible telling.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 19, 2021, 03:00:05 AM
That women couldn’t vote in LCMS congregations back in the day is news to nobody.

Certain avenues of serving the Lord were officially or unofficially closed to women. When bogus rationales for that are put forward, I propose more plausible ones. That’s what people listening with an open mind do.

Peter, I do not wish to misunderstand you.  Are you suggesting that I have put bogus rationals forward  in my recent posts?

Marie Meyer
Yes. You said the rationale for your friend not getting the physics gig was because the decision makers thought a woman couldn’t possibly be gifted at math and physics. That was a bogus explanation. A far more plausible explanation, which I put forward and you agreed with, is that there were various social expectations and policies in place arguing against it, which may or may not have been unjust. Every single person involved knew it was quite possible for a woman to be gifted in math and physics. Ascribing basic stupidity to the people making decisions doesn’t make for a plausible telling.


Apparently you aren't old enough to have heard the arguments that women are not gifted at math and science. They were around.


There may be some science behind it. While getting a truly random sample large enough to get a true representation of the population for MBTI scores; the best samples that we have from the Center for Applied Psychological Type [CAPT] show that males are more likely to have a Thinking preference than females, and females are more likely to have a Feeling preference than males. 65-70% of males prefer T; while 60-65% of females prefer F. People with a Thinking preference tend to be attracted to the hard sciences, like math and physics. People with a Feeling preference tend to be attracted to the soft sciences and helping professions, like psychology, counseling, clergy.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 10:15:38 AM
That women couldn’t vote in LCMS congregations back in the day is news to nobody.

Certain avenues of serving the Lord were officially or unofficially closed to women. When bogus rationales for that are put forward, I propose more plausible ones. That’s what people listening with an open mind do.

Peter, I do not wish to misunderstand you.  Are you suggesting that I have put bogus rationals forward  in my recent posts?

Marie Meyer
Yes. You said the rationale for your friend not getting the physics gig was because the decision makers thought a woman couldn’t possibly be gifted at math and physics. That was a bogus explanation. A far more plausible explanation, which I put forward and you agreed with, is that there were various social expectations and policies in place arguing against it, which may or may not have been unjust. Every single person involved knew it was quite possible for a woman to be gifted in math and physics. Ascribing basic stupidity to the people making decisions doesn’t make for a plausible telling.


Apparently you aren't old enough to have heard the arguments that women are not gifted at math and science. They were around.


There may be some science behind it. While getting a truly random sample large enough to get a true representation of the population for MBTI scores; the best samples that we have from the Center for Applied Psychological Type [CAPT] show that males are more likely to have a Thinking preference than females, and females are more likely to have a Feeling preference than males. 65-70% of males prefer T; while 60-65% of females prefer F. People with a Thinking preference tend to be attracted to the hard sciences, like math and physics. People with a Feeling preference tend to be attracted to the soft sciences and helping professions, like psychology, counseling, clergy.
I know about such arguments. The idea was that women in general were less mathematically inclined. Such arguments were not that it was impossible for a woman to be gifted in math and physics. When presented with a woman who was manifestly gifted in math and physics, the school did disbelieve her test scores with the rationale that it was not possible. The far more plausible rationale was that social factors and policies made teaching earth science a better fit for a variety of non-math-ability-related reasons.

The reason I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers. Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past. We’ve discussed this same basic phenomenon in other contexts. A pastor proposing major changes must do so in a way that doesn’t essentially argue that his predecessors didn’t know what they were doing. Somehow the change agent must seek continuity by honoring the prior way while also justifying changing it. Unless, that is, he doesn’t mind civil war.

So when Marie presents the Lutheran high school administration as using assigning her friend to teach earth science on the rationale that they didn’t believe it was possible for a woman to gifted in math and physics even though that woman had proven she was, she is expecting us to believe that Lutheran high schools used to be run by a bunch of idiots. The fact is, they didn’t use that rationale. They weren’t stupid people. As I noted, they may have come to a wrong decision based on flawed reasoning or the pressure of convention, or simply been following a policy without examining it, or whatever. And Marie’s friend might not have been privy to all their reasons for assigning people the way they did. But explaining that action the way Marie explained it was, I maintain, implausible and unhelpful. She seemed to agree with me in her subsequent clarification, which retracted the description of the rationale. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2021, 11:17:29 AM
I think you are overworking this, Peter. Marie merely suggested, and it is common sense (if not science or statistical), that in those days in many circles the inferiority of women in certain areas was assumed.

You write:
I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers.
I comment:
And sometimes it was exactly those things in people on the other side of the barriers  that powered many decisions.

You write:
Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past.
I comment:
See above. Accurate in statistical terms? Not the issue. A “condemnation of the past.”? Yes, indeed. Many times, and More often than I suspect you think is necessary, A condemnation of the past is exactly what is needed to alert  people to the present and to change the future.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 11:50:22 AM
I think you are overworking this, Peter. Marie merely suggested, and it is common sense (if not science or statistical), that in those days in many circles the inferiority of women in certain areas was assumed.

You write:
I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers.
I comment:
And sometimes it was exactly those things in people on the other side of the barriers  that powered many decisions.

You write:
Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past.
I comment:
See above. Accurate in statistical terms? Not the issue. A “condemnation of the past.”? Yes, indeed. Many times, and More often than I suspect you think is necessary, A condemnation of the past is exactly what is needed to alert  people to the present and to change the future.
Condemnation and judginess are good then, when employed against those who can’t defend themselves. We are part of a living communion of Saints. They were flawed people, but we still must view them with the same charity we view our contemporaries. You can think they made a wrong decision without writing them off as stupid. Well, you can’t, but a lot of people can.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 19, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
I think you are overworking this, Peter. Marie merely suggested, and it is common sense (if not science or statistical), that in those days in many circles the inferiority of women in certain areas was assumed.

You write:
I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers.
I comment:
And sometimes it was exactly those things in people on the other side of the barriers  that powered many decisions.

You write:
Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past.
I comment:
See above. Accurate in statistical terms? Not the issue. A “condemnation of the past.”? Yes, indeed. Many times, and More often than I suspect you think is necessary, A condemnation of the past is exactly what is needed to alert  people to the present and to change the future.
Condemnation and judginess are good then, when employed against those who can’t defend themselves. We are part of a living communion of Saints. They were flawed people, but we still must view them with the same charity we view our contemporaries. You can think they made a wrong decision without writing them off as stupid. Well, you can’t, but a lot of people can.
 

I do not recall saying the decision not call to Geri as a physics and math in a Lutheran high school was stupid.  At the time she was told her major was not one that woman taught, thus she was called to teach earth science. Contribute it an existing LCMS culture regarding women if you will.  The issue was that she was a woman not a  man.

 I did not take the advice of my Valpo profs to pursue the MAR degree from the St. Louis seminary because there was no chance that I could have taught religion at a Lutheran high school.  Why not? Some of the boys would be past puberty.  In 1960 the order of creation had first emerged as a biblical law that would be violated if a woman taught religion to men.   

I offer the history Marva Dawn, PHd. from Notre Dame.  Marva Dawn began her career as an LCMS parochial school teacher.  Her books  include Sexual Character: Beyond Technique,  To Walk and Not Faint,     Truly the Community: Romans 12 and How to Be the Church,  Keeping the Sabbath Wholly,    Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down,   Is it a Lost Cause?  Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children,   and To Walk and Not Faint."
  Her books were published by Erdmans.

When the faculty search committee nominated her as  Ethics professor at Concordia, St Paul "powers that be" in St. Louis nixed the faculty choice for one reason...Marva was a woman.  At the time being a woman disqualified her from teaching in an area for which she was theologically qualified.

The history of how, why and when LCMS women have not been allowed to serve in the church is complex.  Denying, defending or dismissing the reality perpetuates how the Bible  is misused to perpetuate the claim that Genesis 2 reveals God's will for a structured male/female "order of creation."

Marie Meyer

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2021, 12:52:11 PM
I think you are overworking this, Peter. Marie merely suggested, and it is common sense (if not science or statistical), that in those days in many circles the inferiority of women in certain areas was assumed.

You write:
I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers.
I comment:
And sometimes it was exactly those things in people on the other side of the barriers  that powered many decisions.

You write:
Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past.
I comment:
See above. Accurate in statistical terms? Not the issue. A “condemnation of the past.”? Yes, indeed. Many times, and More often than I suspect you think is necessary, A condemnation of the past is exactly what is needed to alert  people to the present and to change the future.
Condemnation and judginess are good then, when employed against those who can’t defend themselves. We are part of a living communion of Saints. They were flawed people, but we still must view them with the same charity we view our contemporaries. You can think they made a wrong decision without writing them off as stupid. Well, you can’t, but a lot of people can.
 

I do not recall saying the decision not call to Geri as a physics and math in a Lutheran high school was stupid.  At the time she was told her major was not one that woman taught, thus she was called to teach earth science. Contribute it an existing LCMS culture regarding women if you will.  The issue was that she was a woman not a  man.

 I did not take the advice of my Valpo profs to pursue the MAR degree from the St. Louis seminary because there was no chance that I could have taught religion at a Lutheran high school.  Why not? Some of the boys would be past puberty.  In 1960 the order of creation had first emerged as a biblical law that would be violated if a woman taught religion to men.   

I offer the history Marva Dawn, PHd. from Notre Dame.  Marva Dawn began her career as an LCMS parochial school teacher.  Her books  include Sexual Character: Beyond Technique,  To Walk and Not Faint,     Truly the Community: Romans 12 and How to Be the Church,  Keeping the Sabbath Wholly,    Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down,   Is it a Lost Cause?  Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children,   and To Walk and Not Faint."
  Her books were published by Erdmans.

When the faculty search committee nominated her as  Ethics professor at Concordia, St Paul "powers that be" in St. Louis nixed the faculty choice for one reason...Marva was a woman.  At the time being a woman disqualified her from teaching in an area for which she was theologically qualified.

The history of how, why and when LCMS women have not been allowed to serve in the church is complex.  Denying, defending or dismissing the reality perpetuates how the Bible  is misused to perpetuate the claim that Genesis 2 reveals God's will for a structured male/female "order of creation."

Marie Meyer

I believe Dr. Dawn was/is at odds with LCMS teaching in certain areas.  Perhaps that is why she was not deemed "qualified" to teach in an LCMS school.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 01:28:40 PM
I think you are overworking this, Peter. Marie merely suggested, and it is common sense (if not science or statistical), that in those days in many circles the inferiority of women in certain areas was assumed.

You write:
I make the point it that too often people pushing to break down barriers or get beyond the limitations of the past find it too easy to explain those barriers in terms of the foolishness, pride, hatred, blindness, stupidity, etc. etc. of the people on the other side of those barriers.
I comment:
And sometimes it was exactly those things in people on the other side of the barriers  that powered many decisions.

You write:
Such explanations are rarely accurate or helpful for the purpose of overcoming the barriers. Rather, it turns every change into a condemnation of the past.
I comment:
See above. Accurate in statistical terms? Not the issue. A “condemnation of the past.”? Yes, indeed. Many times, and More often than I suspect you think is necessary, A condemnation of the past is exactly what is needed to alert  people to the present and to change the future.
Condemnation and judginess are good then, when employed against those who can’t defend themselves. We are part of a living communion of Saints. They were flawed people, but we still must view them with the same charity we view our contemporaries. You can think they made a wrong decision without writing them off as stupid. Well, you can’t, but a lot of people can.
 

I do not recall saying the decision not call to Geri as a physics and math in a Lutheran high school was stupid.  At the time she was told her major was not one that woman taught, thus she was called to teach earth science. Contribute it an existing LCMS culture regarding women if you will.  The issue was that she was a woman not a  man.

 I did not take the advice of my Valpo profs to pursue the MAR degree from the St. Louis seminary because there was no chance that I could have taught religion at a Lutheran high school.  Why not? Some of the boys would be past puberty.  In 1960 the order of creation had first emerged as a biblical law that would be violated if a woman taught religion to men.   

I offer the history Marva Dawn, PHd. from Notre Dame.  Marva Dawn began her career as an LCMS parochial school teacher.  Her books  include Sexual Character: Beyond Technique,  To Walk and Not Faint,     Truly the Community: Romans 12 and How to Be the Church,  Keeping the Sabbath Wholly,    Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down,   Is it a Lost Cause?  Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children,   and To Walk and Not Faint."
  Her books were published by Erdmans.

When the faculty search committee nominated her as  Ethics professor at Concordia, St Paul "powers that be" in St. Louis nixed the faculty choice for one reason...Marva was a woman.  At the time being a woman disqualified her from teaching in an area for which she was theologically qualified.

The history of how, why and when LCMS women have not been allowed to serve in the church is complex.  Denying, defending or dismissing the reality perpetuates how the Bible  is misused to perpetuate the claim that Genesis 2 reveals God's will for a structured male/female "order of creation."

Marie Meyer
You said she second out of 2,000, tutured engineering students, and had offers from the top colleges in math and physics, but she was only offer a job teaching Earth Science. "The rational, women could not possibly be skilled in math and physics." Your interpretation of their decision was that someone who manifestly and provably was gifted in math in physics nevertheless could not possibly be so because she was a woman. That is is why I said you ascribed stupidity to them, and why I said your explanation was neither the most plausible or charitable explanation.

I have heard Marva Dawn on several occasions and read most of her books. I think highly of her as a thinker, speaker, and author. But the fact that she chose a Mennonite church while getting her Ph.D at Notre Dame rather than the local Lutheran church shows that she would not have been a good fit at an LCMS seminary. Even if she were a man or her views on gender and women's ordination were not an issue, her views on ecumenism would probably not have meshed. She would constantly have been at odds with the other faculty about this or that official synodical position.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having clear doctrinal standards. On one hand, many great theologians get excluded from teaching. On the other hand, you avoid having mutually-exclusive doctrines taught, which really only endorses the idea that each pastor must decide for himself, which in turn means he can't say, "This is the Word of the Lord," but only "Anyway, that's how I see it," when teaching and preaching.     
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 19, 2021, 02:24:37 PM
Peter writes...

You said she second out of 2,000, tutured engineering students, and had offers from the top colleges in math and physics, but she was only offer a job teaching Earth Science. "The rational, women could not possibly be skilled in math and physics." Your interpretation of their decision was that someone who manifestly and provably was gifted in math in physics nevertheless could not possibly be so because she was a woman. That is is why I said you ascribed stupidity to them, and why I said your explanation was neither the most plausible or charitable explanation.

I have heard Marva Dawn on several occasions and read most of her books. I think highly of her as a thinker, speaker, and author. But the fact that she chose a Mennonite church while getting her Ph.D at Notre Dame rather than the local Lutheran church shows that she would not have been a good fit at an LCMS seminary. Even if she were a man or her views on gender and women's ordination were not an issue, her views on ecumenism would probably not have meshed. She would constantly have been at odds with the other faculty about this or that official synodical position.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having clear doctrinal standards. On one hand, many great theologians get excluded from teaching. On the other hand, you avoid having mutually-exclusive doctrines taught, which really only endorses the idea that each pastor must decide for himself, which in turn means he can't say, "This is the Word of the Lord," but only "Anyway, that's how I see it," when teaching and preaching."

I respond to Peter's comment,  "Even if she were a man or her views on gender and women's ordination were not an issue, her views on ecumenism would probably not have meshed. She would constantly have been at odds with the other faculty about this or that official synodical position," 

1. Marva's  position on abortion and homosexual marriage is consistent with the LCMS.  She did not address the ordination of women.

2. On what grounds do you conclude that Marva Dawn would constantly have been at odds with other faculty members on this or that official synodical position?  She was their choice.  (The call was  not to teach at the seminary, but undergraduate students at Concordia, St. Paul MN.

3. Please explain what you mean by she "chose" a Mennonite church while at Notre Dame.  I know that Marva shared Mennonite interest in simple living. She was persuaded  that  Christians are called to share their wealth with those who have fewer financial resources than we do.  For this reason Marva kept little of what she earned from her books and gave generously of her wealth to the poor and needy.  This hardly proves she disagrees LCMS doctrine.  It suggests she agreed with an aspect  of Christian living that was close to her heart.  I suspect she was strengthened in an aspect of Christian living  that is and  important part of our Christian faith on the occasions she worshiped at a Mennonite church.   

Dave Benke may recall when the Atlantic District invited Marva to a gathering of District pastors.  At the time she taught pastors how to interpret biblical texts within the context of the entire cannon and the co-text of immediate passages.  The pastors seemed to agree that she was a gifted teacher and interpreter of the Bible.

Marie Meyer
P.S.  While on the island of St. Thomas Bill and I worshiped at a Mennonite Church.  We heard one of the most Lutheran sermons on the nature and significant of Baptism. 


Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 02:34:04 PM
I mean I think Dawn’s views on ecumenism would not have meshed with very well teaching at an LCMS seminary. I still think highly of her as a scholar, author, and speaker.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 19, 2021, 02:36:19 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2021, 02:58:23 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)

Did I say “speak”?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 19, 2021, 05:17:15 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)

Did I say “speak”?


So, what do you see as the differences between preaching and speaking?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2021, 05:40:51 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)

Did I say “speak”?


So, what do you see as the differences between preaching and speaking?

I will not go down that detour.  The point was that Dr. Dawn has demonstrated she does not hold to the teaching of the LCMS and therefore would have been a poor choice to teach theology in one of its schools.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 19, 2021, 06:01:44 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)

Did I say “speak”?


So, what do you see as the differences between preaching and speaking?

I will not go down that detour.  The point was that Dr. Dawn has demonstrated she does not hold to the teaching of the LCMS and therefore would have been a poor choice to teach theology in one of its schools.


I don't think it's a detour. I suspect that those who oppose her will talk about her preaching in  congregations contrary to LCMS teachings. Those who support her will talk about her speaking in congregations which could be OK. Words matter. I have heard her speak. It was a very good lecture and much longer than any sermon I would preach.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 06:12:01 PM
Mrs. Meyer,

As I recall, Dr. Dawn has preached in several churches.  Does that sound like she agrees with LCMS teaching?


Women cannot speak in LCMS congregations?


I remember in my youth when a nun came to speak during a worship service. She was not allowed to speak from the pulpit, but she could speak to us. (The ALC had not yet begun ordaining women.)

Did I say “speak”?


So, what do you see as the differences between preaching and speaking?

I will not go down that detour.  The point was that Dr. Dawn has demonstrated she does not hold to the teaching of the LCMS and therefore would have been a poor choice to teach theology in one of its schools.


I don't think it's a detour. I suspect that those who oppose her will talk about her preaching in  congregations contrary to LCMS teachings. Those who support her will talk about her speaking in congregations which could be OK. Words matter. I have heard her speak. It was a very good lecture and much longer than any sermon I would preach.
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 19, 2021, 06:16:40 PM
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.


Yes, it was a deliberate change. If the reports said that Marva Dawn spoke at different congregations, would that have been acceptable? Can a woman "speak" during a worship service? (By this, I mean more than just reading lessons; but perhaps give a Temple Talk during a stewardship campaign; a talk to recruit Sunday school teachers, or choir members? When would that speech become preaching?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2021, 06:53:35 PM
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.


Yes, it was a deliberate change. If the reports said that Marva Dawn spoke at different congregations, would that have been acceptable? Can a woman "speak" during a worship service? (By this, I mean more than just reading lessons; but perhaps give a Temple Talk during a stewardship campaign; a talk to recruit Sunday school teachers, or choir members? When would that speech become preaching?
That is precisely the change of subject we’re trying to avoid. If it is part of the divine service and not part of the liturgy, it is preaching. If it is part of the announcements or otherwise outside the context of the divine service, it is speaking. I’m not interested in your what- if scenarios about apply Law and Gospel in an announcement or including an announcement in a sermon and so forth. If you can’t tell the difference, you are a fool. But since you can, we can drop it. Though I doubt you will. Pointless digressions hold too much fascination to you.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 19, 2021, 08:15:32 PM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2021, 11:39:39 PM
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 12:10:27 AM
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.
But too often the tales of such people are tales of the suffocating limits, the comparative meaninglessness and drudgery of it all, the shattering of barriers and the escape from bondage into freedom. Their foremothers are revered for the ways they tested boundaries and prepared the way, not for the ways they upheld the boundaries and made the whole thing work. The implication, contra all of their “not that there is anything wrong with that” patronizing of homemakers, is that church life as their mothers knew it is too small for them. That is a very different telling of the story than, “I just felt called to serve in a different way.”
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 12:27:53 AM
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 20, 2021, 03:18:12 AM
Words matter. Both the original word choice and your altering of it were deliberate. That’s because you both recognize the difference between speaking and preaching. It is a detour to have another discussion with pretending not to understand distinctions that you do in fact understand.


Yes, it was a deliberate change. If the reports said that Marva Dawn spoke at different congregations, would that have been acceptable? Can a woman "speak" during a worship service? (By this, I mean more than just reading lessons; but perhaps give a Temple Talk during a stewardship campaign; a talk to recruit Sunday school teachers, or choir members? When would that speech become preaching?
That is precisely the change of subject we’re trying to avoid. If it is part of the divine service and not part of the liturgy, it is preaching. If it is part of the announcements or otherwise outside the context of the divine service, it is speaking. I’m not interested in your what- if scenarios about apply Law and Gospel in an announcement or including an announcement in a sermon and so forth. If you can’t tell the difference, you are a fool. But since you can, we can drop it. Though I doubt you will. Pointless digressions hold too much fascination to you.


It is clear that my experiences are vastly different than yours. For a year at LBI and two years at Concordia I was part of gospel singing groups that went in and led Sunday worship services. None of us were ordained. We didn't follow a liturgy. Both men and women on the teams spoke at these events. Sometimes it was more of a Bible study and sometimes it was more of a personal testimony. Where would those "talks" fit into your scheme?


A few of the Stewardship Campaigns that I used over the years called for Table Talks from lay people. They were inserted into the liturgy. They often used scripture passages and talked about their own personal stewardship. Both men and women would speak. Where would those "talks" fit into your scheme.


Perhaps you've never had such things in your congregation so outside of the divine service vs. part of the divine service is clearer in your setting than those I've been in.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 20, 2021, 08:05:24 AM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 20, 2021, 08:38:20 AM
Here is a story I remember reading:

https://blogs.lcms.org/2007/deaconess-murdered-suspect-arrested/ (https://blogs.lcms.org/2007/deaconess-murdered-suspect-arrested/)

https://crossings.org/deaconess-evelyn-middelstadt-r-i-p/?print=print (https://crossings.org/deaconess-evelyn-middelstadt-r-i-p/?print=print)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 20, 2021, 08:57:30 AM
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.

The ELCA has a 50/40/10 project around women's ordination, as found here:  https://www.womenoftheelca.org/blog/post/womens-ordination.  I hadn't seen any of this before this morning, based on an email sent by the Metro Synod (NY) ELCA. 

50/40/10 refers to something I hadn't heard of before, a rule for happiness -
the state of happiness, according to the rule, is determined
50% by genetics
40% by state of mind
10% by circumstances

In this case, according to this link (https://elca.org/50yearsofordainedwomen), it refers to
50 years of women being ordained in the ELCA
40 years of women of color being ordained in the ELCA
10 years of LGBTQ individuals being able to serve freely in the ELCA

Dave Benke

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 20, 2021, 09:16:25 AM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?

EDWARD,

I think a fruitful place to start looking for exemplary Christian women would be, New Book of Festivals and Commemorations by Philip H. Pfatteicher, Fortress Press. There will be entries on women scattered through the entire history of the Church. Each entry includes an account of their lives as we are able to know it.   ;D

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 09:31:04 AM
Sophie Scholl and the White Rose. Look her up. And there is a movie.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 09:51:11 AM
I do not think, Peter, that you have heard many of those “tales,” nor do I think you are capable of grasping the blessings of the ministries of ordained women.
You think wrongly. But no need to respond; I already know you won't let facts change your opinion.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 09:55:19 AM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?

1. I don't think either my mother or my mother-in-law would be comfortable with such a "spotlight" on them.  They would be the first to deflect it and tell us to look at Christ.

2. My guess is that you would find such women in virtually EVERY congregation and, hopefully, in every family.  Each congregation could/should honor these women for their Christian service.

3. We tend to focus on the "awesome" and forget the everyday.  And yet that (the everyday) is precisely where God works.  That is part of the genius of Luther's teaching on vocation.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 10:00:16 AM
We had the same kind of women in my church bodies, Pastor Bohler, and I refer to the Augustana Synod, the ULCA, and the LCA. But some felt the call to be a pastor, to preach, to preside, to lead a congregation of God's people. That does nothing to denigrate or lessen the value and nobility of that which was previously done by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts and mothers-in-law. It was simply that their life in the church led them to sense a different call, the same call that their fathers, uncles and brothers had felt, the call to ordained ministry. And their questions were quite simple: Why can we not follow this call? We found out, after considerable prayer and study and some bit of controversy, that there was no reason we as the Church should not acknowledge their calls.
That may happen someday in your church body. Or, those in your church body who sense that call, and I'm sure they are there today, may have to answer it somewhere else.

1. No reason?  I guess the Bible is no reason for some.  Nor is church history and practice.

2. Not all calls are from God.  Eve felt a call to eat of the forbidden fruit.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 10:23:49 AM
Rosa Young (May 14, 1890 - June 30, 1971) should be commemorated as a woman of faith. She was a pioneer of Black education in Alabama in the 1910s and 20s and also helped plant Lutheran churches in Central Alabama. She was honored with an honorary doctorate (LL.D.) from Concordia Theological Seminary in 1961. A documentary about her life and work may be viewed at https://www.lcms.org/thefirstrosa (https://www.lcms.org/thefirstrosa) .
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on March 20, 2021, 10:27:45 AM

1. I don't think either my mother or my mother-in-law would be comfortable with such a "spotlight" on them.  They would be the first to deflect it and tell us to look at Christ.

2. My guess is that you would find such women in virtually EVERY congregation and, hopefully, in every family.  Each congregation could/should honor these women for their Christian service.

3. We tend to focus on the "awesome" and forget the everyday.  And yet that (the everyday) is precisely where God works.  That is part of the genius of Luther's teaching on vocation.

This.  100%.  I think it's not easy to find writings on "famous" deaconesses because they desire to serve without recognition.  It's right in the Deaconess motto as written by Loehe:

The True Deaconess Spirit
What is my want? I want to serve.
Whom do I want to serve?
The Lord in His wretched ones and His poor.

And what is my reward?
I serve neither for reward nor thanks
but out of gratitude and love.
My reward is that I am permitted to serve.

And if I perish in this service?
“If I perish, I perish,” said Queen Esther.
I would perish for Him who gave Himself for me.
But He will not let me perish.

And if I grow old in this service?
Then shall my heart be renewed as a palm tree.
And the Lord shall satisfy me with grace and mercy.

I go my way in peace
casting all my care upon Him.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 10:39:32 AM
Chesterton's What Is Wrong With the World talks about the inside and the outside of history, the public and the private side of life, and specialist and the generalist. He relates them to the division between male and female. A history told strictly in terms of great explorers, generals, inventors, etc. is essentially a story about men. A history told strictly in terms of what everyday life was like for normal people would feature women in all the main roles. What happened outside the home was about men. What happened in the home was about women. And of course, to rational people they are equally important, or err on the side of home being the more important to the greater number of people. Men specialize, becoming extremely good at one thing and need help at most other things, whereas women generalize and must be at least pretty good at everything but not necessarily the very best in town at anything. He saw them as equally glorious roles in a culture, and he saw feminism as the surrender of the female-- the generalist, the stars of the inside of history, and the primacy of the home-- to the male-- the specialist, the outside of history, and the workplace.

He pointed out (this was before women had won the right to vote) that huge majorities of women did not want the vote. It had nothing to do with them thinking they weren't up to it or lacked the mental capacity. It had everything to do with them thinking it beneath them, unwomanly, undignified. Women demanding the vote were, to most women in England at the time, like women wearing false mustaches and black top hats. They could do so, in theory, but why would they want to?

A lot of the book has to do with circumstances specific to late industrial England, but it nevertheless provides a different template for understanding history. It is at least as plausible as the idea that everything is about who oppressed whom and it used to be straight white Christian males oppressing everyone else, until gradually more and more groups won the right to be taken seriously. In that telling, men used to be bad and dumb, but they keep getting more and more enlightened by others. They treated women like property and couldn't imagine women being clever, creative, intelligent, etc. The problem with that telling is that it only focuses on the outside of history. In reality, every man personally knew and loved women he knew to be creative, intelligent, capable, etc. Women not voting was not a function of men being bad and dumb. It might not have been fair or right, but the motives behind it were different than we normally think today. Chesterton doesn't make a persuasive case against women voting (he doesn't try to-- he simply points out that women at the time didn't want to) but he does make a persuasive case that people who use the standard telling of progressive history don't understand the inside of history.

In short, life as told in history books features mostly men. Life as experienced firsthand features more starring women. The men in the books are mostly the same everywhere and thus famous. The women are different everywhere. Thus, though they are no less great, they are less famous. We all have the same Thomas Jefferson. We all have a different version of Pr. Bohler's grandmother.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 20, 2021, 11:26:59 AM
Thanks, Buckeye Deaconess for sharing the Deaconess motto.  Ultimately, our life in Christ
is all about Servanthood.  Whether we are a pastor of deaconess, plumber or secretary,
father or mother,  our calling is to serve others and not ourselves.  The mention of Queen
Esther in the motto gave me a chuckle since my current residence is now on Esther Circle.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on March 20, 2021, 11:45:15 AM
Thanks, Buckeye Deaconess for sharing the Deaconess motto.  Ultimately, our life in Christ
is all about Servanthood.  Whether we are a pastor of deaconess, plumber or secretary,
father or mother,  our calling is to serve others and not ourselves.  The mention of Queen
Esther in the motto gave me a chuckle since my current residence is now on Esther Circle.

When I was introduced to this motto as a student in the deaconess program, I kind of laughed it off.  Having served for so long now, I have truly come to appreciate its words.

I just finished teaching a Servant Leadership course for deaconess students, and I cautioned them not to go into a congregation thinking they had more knowledge or know-how than the seasoned ladies of the congregation.  Those ladies are a learning resource for them, not the other way around.  It is important for all church workers to enter into their service with humility and service in mind.  I would say trying to buck the system and introducing novel ideas to a church body's teachings and confession is not in keeping with that posture.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 11:51:18 AM
Thanks, Buckeye Deaconess for sharing the Deaconess motto.  Ultimately, our life in Christ
is all about Servanthood.  Whether we are a pastor of deaconess, plumber or secretary,
father or mother,  our calling is to serve others and not ourselves.  The mention of Queen
Esther in the motto gave me a chuckle since my current residence is now on Esther Circle.

When I was introduced to this motto as a student in the deaconess program, I kind of laughed it off.  Having served for so long now, I have truly come to appreciate its words.

I just finished teaching a Servant Leadership course for deaconess students, and I cautioned them not to go into a congregation thinking they had more knowledge or know-how than the seasoned ladies of the congregation.  Those ladies are a learning resource for them, not the other way around.  It is important for all church workers to enter into their service with humility and service in mind.  I would say trying to buck the system and introducing novel ideas to a church body's teachings and confession is not in keeping with that posture.
It’s an important attitude to maintain even when it isn’t true. A pastor, deaconess, or any servant leader might, in a given situation, have far more expertise than the people they are serving among. But even if that is the case, it helps if they act like they don’t assume it is the case.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 12:01:28 PM
Thanks, Buckeye Deaconess for sharing the Deaconess motto.  Ultimately, our life in Christ
is all about Servanthood.  Whether we are a pastor of deaconess, plumber or secretary,
father or mother,  our calling is to serve others and not ourselves.  The mention of Queen
Esther in the motto gave me a chuckle since my current residence is now on Esther Circle.

When I was introduced to this motto as a student in the deaconess program, I kind of laughed it off.  Having served for so long now, I have truly come to appreciate its words.

I just finished teaching a Servant Leadership course for deaconess students, and I cautioned them not to go into a congregation thinking they had more knowledge or know-how than the seasoned ladies of the congregation.  Those ladies are a learning resource for them, not the other way around.  It is important for all church workers to enter into their service with humility and service in mind.  I would say trying to buck the system and introducing novel ideas to a church body's teachings and confession is not in keeping with that posture.
It’s an important attitude to maintain even when it isn’t true. A pastor, deaconess, or any servant leader might, in a given situation, have far more expertise than the people they are serving among. But even if that is the case, it helps if they act like they don’t assume it is the case.
Even if the church worker has more general knowledge, what they lack is specific knowledge of that congregation and situation. The new ideas may in fact be better, but looking to the people for insights into their congregation and situation and then working with them to consider alternatives works much better than simply going in to set them all straight.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 12:22:03 PM
I well remember one of my vicars, at one of the last church council meetings he attended here, basically contradicting me at every turn.  Then, before I could speak with him privately, immediately leaving for home afterwards.  The next morning, first thing, I called him into my office to discuss his behavior.  And his defense was, and I quote: "I know better than you."  Never, ever say that to your supervising pastor!  Even if you think it is true.  Never, ever. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 12:31:08 PM
I well remember one of my vicars, at one of the last church council meetings he attended here, basically contradicting me at every turn.  Then, before I could speak with him privately, immediately leaving for home afterwards.  The next morning, first thing, I called him into my office to discuss his behavior.  And his defense was, and I quote: "I know better than you."  Never, ever say that to your supervising pastor!  Even if you think it is true.  Never, ever.
Regardless of who knows better, the two can’t be publicly contradicting each other. Even if I knew better as a supervisor, I wouldn’t contradict the vicar right then and there, I would talk to him later and correct whatever he said later. So it isn’t just don’t contradict your supervisor. It is speak with one voice as church leaders.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 20, 2021, 12:51:37 PM
Humility is great (irony intended) and no one is suggesting that we abandon humility. Rather, our Confessions state:

"The memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling" (Augsburg Confession XXI 1).

This is one of the first things written about saints in the Book of Concord. Before Melanchthon unpacks all the problems surrounding praying to the saints, etc., he lays this bedrock of true Christian practice. We ought not neglect the benefits of this longstanding Christian practice of recognizing lives that instruct and inspire. Otherwise, we should throw out every Saints' Day, the attendant hymns, and Christian biographies about persons like Martin and Katharina Luther.

Fears about pride in this case are a little like fears of good works. One might argue: Christian biography necessarily leads to pride; talking about good works necessarily leads to justification by good works. Yet the very same theology that warns us about pride and justification by works commends to us the memory of saints and tells us that good works follow faith necessarily. There is no contradiction in Lutheran theology here but we modern Lutherans it seems are failing to remember and celebrate exemplary Lutheran women who humbly served their Lord.

With this thread I am inviting such memory, which is instructive to the Church. This is not to suggest the neglect of the "ordinary" women serving among us. On the contrary, these are precisely lives that should be remembered and celebrated alongside of persons of extraordinary faith and accomplishment. How instructive it would be for our daughters to read about (as well as witness) both examples!

I'll give an example from my congregation. Blanche Wemlinger, in her nineties, weekly reviews the names of persons in our prayers and then sends out cards to them about prayer and encouragement. She is a remarkable woman at the same time she is ordinary, having worked as a cook in Columbus schools while raising her family. She grew up in Greasy Creek, KY before moving with her family in search of work, part of the Appalachian migration to Ohio. Such a life, I think, is worth remembering and celebrating as an example of faith and life for Lutherans. She is a living Dorcas (cf. Acts 9:36--41).
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 01:06:28 PM
Rev. Engelbrecht,

I guess that is sort of my point: the exemplary lives of Christians ought to be ordinary lives.  All Christians do good works, and yet Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 that they are not even aware of them.  They just do them.  You mention Blanche Wemlinger of your congregation.  That is good, and I think her example would mean more to the people of your congregation than some far-away deaconess or missionary.  SHE is the one you should be lifting up as an example.  For me, it is my mother and mother-in-law.  Because I know them.  I know their good works.  I know how they have showed ME Christ.  I think we need to each see MY pastor, MY Sunday school teacher, MY Altar Guild members, MY mother/father, etc. as the ones who are the examples of the faith for me.  It would move me to greater thankfulness for those people AND it would make Christian service tangible and real and personal and doable. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
I will be sure to tell some of the Women clergy I meet, those women among thousands of other women clergy, that you believe their call to serve is probably from Satan or at least in the same category as a call from Satan.  Makes me wonder how you feel when you have to be in the same room with one of them, should that ever happen.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 20, 2021, 02:24:37 PM
The real purpose of the vicarage assignment is that it provide a learning experience
for the vicar.  The supervising pastor should be seen as a mentor who has the ability
to assist the seminarian understand the challenges of a parish pastor.  Some pastors
are not good supervisors and some vicars are not good learners.  Yet, it would be a
shame if the vicarage year was not a good learning experience.  Instead that year
of vicarage should empower the seminarian to meet the final year at the seminary
with gusto.
 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 02:54:44 PM
I will be sure to tell some of the Women clergy I meet, those women among thousands of other women clergy, that you believe their call to serve is probably from Satan or at least in the same category as a call from Satan.  Makes me wonder how you feel when you have to be in the same room with one of them, should that ever happen.
I had to go back over a couple of pages of posts to try to figure out to whom this post was a response, I think I may have figured it out. I know that your delicate constitution does not permit you to dirty yourself by using the quotation feature, but even so, could you perhaps lower yourself to note to whom you are responding, if that is not too far beneath your dignity?


Just because the felt call may have not been from God, does not automatically mean that it is Satanic in origin. It may have simply been a misunderstanding or mistake. Over the years I have known a few pastors of whom I really thought that their entrance into the pastoral ministry was a mistake. They just really did not seem suited to that ministry, or at least not where they were serving. So does that mean that in their entrance into the pastorate they were directly following Satan? Not necessarily, but I did think it a mistake.


I personally have interacted with women who were pastors over the years and I rarely had any trouble dealing with them politely, professionally, and respectfully. The one exception that I recall was once when I felt I needed to request that the woman pastor I was working with in the local ministerial association would stop continually teasing and pushing me to participate in a pulpit exchange with her. Could she not take no for an answer? We got it sorted out and continued to work well together. I later helped her with some resources from my library for her continuing education.


I know that there have been some Missouri Synod pastors who have a hard time reacting professionally with women clergy. A few who post on these threads have demonstrated that. I regret that. There is no need to be dismissive, disrespectful, petty, rude, and unprofessional about it. Our church bodies disagree about what we should take away from the Biblical texts on the topic of women pastors and as we wish to have our point of view treated with respect (although I realize not agreement) we need to extend that respectfulness to those we disagree with.


Although I realize that asking you, Charles, to show us the same respect that you demand from us is likely asking too much. After all, you know that we have arrived at our wrong positions from fear of change, pride in being male, resistance to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, a lack of prayerful consideration, and just plain fear and disgust, while you are correct in this as in just about everything else. So you have no need to show the respect that you are owed to those who are too benighted to see the light as you have seen the light.


Just calling things as I perceive them.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 20, 2021, 03:28:54 PM
Rev. Engelbrecht,

I guess that is sort of my point: the exemplary lives of Christians ought to be ordinary lives.  All Christians do good works, and yet Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 that they are not even aware of them.  They just do them.  You mention Blanche Wemlinger of your congregation.  That is good, and I think her example would mean more to the people of your congregation than some far-away deaconess or missionary.  SHE is the one you should be lifting up as an example.  For me, it is my mother and mother-in-law.  Because I know them.  I know their good works.  I know how they have showed ME Christ.  I think we need to each see MY pastor, MY Sunday school teacher, MY Altar Guild members, MY mother/father, etc. as the ones who are the examples of the faith for me.  It would move me to greater thankfulness for those people AND it would make Christian service tangible and real and personal and doable.

Good. I guess I would also say there are extraordinary lives where the Lord sees people through extraordinary circumstances or uses them in extraordinary ways. Many lives in the Bible are this way. I would add persons like the Luthers who stayed in Wittenberg together despite the extreme threats and circumstances. In particular, staying to treat people during the plague is extraordinary behavior flowing from faith. I have no doubt that there are other Lutheran women since Katharina who have lived this way. I'm hopeful to read and share their stories.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: mariemeyer on March 20, 2021, 03:44:01 PM
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer



     


 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 04:03:19 PM
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer
I have no authority to speak authoritatively for the LCMS, so these are just my thoughts about this topic, the way that I see it.


The issue is not so much about speaking or preaching, but to whom is given spiritual oversight over the congregation and under whose authority they are invited to speak or do other actions. We can quibble over what is simply speaking to the congregation and what is "preaching" but ultimately that is just about labels. Similarly, the pulpit is in the end just a piece of furniture. The pulpit has come to symbolize for many the pastoral office and authority, just as a throne has come to symbolize the royal authority of a king or queen.


As I understand the LCMS position on the matter, the pastoral office in a church is a specific office which God has instituted in the church and which exercises spiritual authority within that church. Distinctive exercises of that authority is preaching (which is taking God's Word in the Holy Scriptures and giving an authoritative interpretation and application of that Word to the people. Also distinctive to the office is the Office of the Keys and presiding at the Sacrament of the Altar. For the pastor to authorize someone to speak to the congregation about a particular topic in their area of expertise under that pastor's authority seems reasonable. The person so speaking is not usurping the pastor's authority as spiritual leader of the congregation but speaking under that authority. The pastor is ultimately responsible for what is said. As God has delegated spiritual authority to congregations and their pastors, so they can delegate specific authority to others.


Another example. I am a male, duly ordained and rostered in the LCMS. But it would be improper for me to simply show up uninvited one Sunday at another LCMS congregation to which I had not been called and presume to take over the service, preach, and preside at communion. I am an ordained pastor in the LCMS, but not called to that congregation so I have no authority to exercise authority over them. It would be a different matter if I had been asked by someone in authority in that congregation, the pastor, the elders, etc. to do so. Even though that would not be a formal or permanent call, it would be a delegation of authority.


It would also be a different matter if the Circuit Visitor, or someone delegated by the Circuit Visitor or District office were to come. By joining the LCMS, the congregation agreed to be under the authority of the Synod and District.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 05:20:18 PM
I will be sure to tell some of the Women clergy I meet, those women among thousands of other women clergy, that you believe their call to serve is probably from Satan or at least in the same category as a call from Satan.  Makes me wonder how you feel when you have to be in the same room with one of them, should that ever happen.
Some years back a man dropped by my office at church. He had been called by God to travel around the country with a message that God had given to him for God's people, to call them to repentance and to trust in God alone and not to human things. For example he carried no insurance, a human thing, but trusted God to take care of him and his family. He and his wife traveled in an RV. One day while they were staying at an RV park a storm blew up. The people from the RV camp went around to everyone there urging them to leave their campsites and head over to the storm shelter under the camp office. There was a tornado warning for the area. Of course, they refused to leave their RV for a man made storm shelter but trusted God to take care of them. And He did. God had called him to go to churches and call the people to trust God like He did.


Who was I to stand against this man's calling from God or deny God's message that God Himself had given him to spread? The called pastor of the congregation, that's who. I politely showed him to the door and refused his appeal to address God's people at the congregation I served with this urgent message God had given him for them.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 05:52:33 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Although I realize that asking you, Charles, to show us the same respect that you demand from us is likely asking too much. After all, you know that we have arrived at our wrong positions from fear of change, pride in being male, resistance to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, a lack of prayerful consideration, and just plain fear and disgust, while you are correct in this as in just about everything else. So you have no need to show the respect that you are owed to those who are too benighted to see the light as you have seen the light.
Just calling things as I perceive them.
Me:
And I say again, you perceive them wrongly. You so relish your statements of victimhood and your declarations about how miserable I think you are in faith, prayer, and piety. Please stop doing that. Some of the “poor me “and “poor us“ declarations you keep on making are worthy of discussion. But when you line them up like that, it simply turns me off.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 06:30:55 PM
Setting aside the difficulty that some have in respecting and dealing politely with those with whom they disagree, what should be our interpretive rule? When someone claims that God is calling them to a particular Office, profession, or activity is it incumbent on the rest of us to simply believe their perception of God's calling and place them in that Office?


https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7769.msg498957#msg498957 (https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7769.msg498957#msg498957)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 07:24:15 PM
Oh, for heaven’s sake!
Here is the situation. It ain’t rocket surgery.
1.  I, and millions of other people, believe God calls women to the ordained ministry.
2.  You, and millions of other people, believe God does not call women to the ordained ministry.
3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.
4.  Since you believe that God does not call women to the ordained ministry, you say you will never ordain them.
5.  I understand your viewpoint and whence it comes and since I think it is very wrong, I do not respect it.
6.  I do not expect you to respect my viewpoint.
Now, can we stop having this roundelay every time there is the vaguest hint of the subject is in the atmosphere?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 20, 2021, 07:36:06 PM
I think a fruitful place to start looking for exemplary Christian women would be, New Book of Festivals and Commemorations by Philip H. Pfatteicher, Fortress Press. There will be entries on women scattered through the entire history of the Church. Each entry includes an account of their lives as we are able to know it.   ;D


Working fairly quickly on a chart of all the listings in Pfatteicher's book, I came up with 50 women, and five others that include men and women, e.g., the parents of Mary; Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. This is out of 317 entries or 15-16%. File of his dates and names is attached. (I believe those in red are in our ELW.)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 20, 2021, 08:03:16 PM
Setting aside the difficulty that some have in respecting and dealing politely with those with whom they disagree, what should be our interpretive rule? When someone claims that God is calling them to a particular Office, profession, or activity is it incumbent on the rest of us to simply believe their perception of God's calling and place them in that Office?


By have processes by which the church affirms that inner call from God. In the ELCA, a candidate needs recommendations by their pastor and synod candidacy committee, and psychological evaluations before they can get into seminary. They need to pass their seminary courses and evaluations by the candidacy committee. They need to receive a Call from a congregation.


Two friends flunked their internships. One took that as a sign and dropped out of seminary. (Some friends of hers believe that she, as a single mother, was placed in congregation with a supervisor who would make sure she wouldn't succeed. Other classmates I talked to, said that the seminary made the right call. She did not have the skills for ordained ministry.)


The other friend recognized that it was a bad match, and jumped through the extra hoops, including further psych tests, a second internship; and after six years of seminary, was ordained. He continues to serve in the ELCA.


We are not like Robert Duvall in the movie, The Apostle, who baptizes himself and declares himself to be "the apostle," and begins preaching on the radio and in a congregation.


You know as well as I that our church bodies do not ordain everyone who feels that he (or she) is called by God.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 08:13:58 PM
Oh, for heaven’s sake!
Here is the situation. It ain’t rocket surgery.
1.  I, and millions of other people, believe God calls women to the ordained ministry.
2.  You, and millions of other people, believe God does not call women to the ordained ministry.
3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.
4.  Since you believe that God does not call women to the ordained ministry, you say you will never ordain them.
5.  I understand your viewpoint and whence it comes and since I think it is very wrong, I do not respect it.
6.  I do not expect you to respect my viewpoint.
Now, can we stop having this roundelay every time there is the vaguest hint of the subject is in the atmosphere?

OK, so you think we are VERY wrong and you do not respect our viewpoint.  And you say that you do not expect us to respect yours.  So, what is your problem then when we (I) say that you are VERY wrong?  Or are only you and yours allowed to do that?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 08:31:02 PM
I can't stop you from saying that, Pastor Bohler, nor do I want to.
But in the Women's History Month thread, it would be good if we all took a serious, reflective, open-minded and balanced look at the women in our history and the women in history, especially in our churches. We should look at the women in history. Are they, as Peter suggests, not in "history" because they were at home while men were out doing things like fighting wars and exploring the world? My first reaction to this is that it is hogwash, because women were doing things as well.
Empress Theodora comes to mind. Catherine the Great. Marie Antoinette. Numerous consorts of Roman Emperors, not to mention the women who accompanied (and probably led) the great migrations of the world. Hildegaard von Bingen. Catherine of Sienna. Gertrude of Nivelles, and the other women leading influential convents throughout the Middle Ages. Queen Christine of Sweden. Joan, the maid of Orleans. And who knows what wonders of science, math or philosophy came from women, but were made known by men because (well, you know...)?
It is in the accounts of history, not in the history itself, that women were in the background.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2021, 08:44:08 PM
I can't stop you from saying that, Pastor Bohler, nor do I want to.
But in the Women's History Month thread, it would be good if we all took a serious, reflective, open-minded and balanced look at the women in our history and the women in history, especially in our churches. We should look at the women in history. Are they, as Peter suggests, not in "history" because they were at home while men were out doing things like fighting wars and exploring the world? My first reaction to this is that it is hogwash, because women were doing things as well.
Empress Theodora comes to mind. Catherine the Great. Marie Antoinette. Numerous consorts of Roman Emperors, not to mention the women who accompanied (and probably led) the great migrations of the world. Hildegaard von Bingen. Catherine of Sienna. Gertrude of Nivelles, and the other women leading influential convents throughout the Middle Ages. Queen Christine of Sweden. Joan, the maid of Orleans. And who knows what wonders of science, math or philosophy came from women, but were made known by men because (well, you know...)?
It is in the accounts of history, not in the history itself, that women were in the background.

You really should learn to read better because your little synopsis above is NOT what Rev. Speckhard wrote.  At all.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2021, 09:36:56 PM
I can't stop you from saying that, Pastor Bohler, nor do I want to.
But in the Women's History Month thread, it would be good if we all took a serious, reflective, open-minded and balanced look at the women in our history and the women in history, especially in our churches. We should look at the women in history. Are they, as Peter suggests, not in "history" because they were at home while men were out doing things like fighting wars and exploring the world? My first reaction to this is that it is hogwash, because women were doing things as well.
Empress Theodora comes to mind. Catherine the Great. Marie Antoinette. Numerous consorts of Roman Emperors, not to mention the women who accompanied (and probably led) the great migrations of the world. Hildegaard von Bingen. Catherine of Sienna. Gertrude of Nivelles, and the other women leading influential convents throughout the Middle Ages. Queen Christine of Sweden. Joan, the maid of Orleans. And who knows what wonders of science, math or philosophy came from women, but were made known by men because (well, you know...)?
It is in the accounts of history, not in the history itself, that women were in the background.

You really should learn to read better because your little synopsis above is NOT what Rev. Speckhard wrote.  At all.
Agreed. But Charles decides how to respond before he reads what was written, so I’m used to it.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 20, 2021, 10:29:32 PM
Setting aside the difficulty that some have in respecting and dealing politely with those with whom they disagree, what should be our interpretive rule? When someone claims that God is calling them to a particular Office, profession, or activity is it incumbent on the rest of us to simply believe their perception of God's calling and place them in that Office?


By have processes by which the church affirms that inner call from God. In the ELCA, a candidate needs recommendations by their pastor and synod candidacy committee, and psychological evaluations before they can get into seminary. They need to pass their seminary courses and evaluations by the candidacy committee. They need to receive a Call from a congregation.


Two friends flunked their internships. One took that as a sign and dropped out of seminary. (Some friends of hers believe that she, as a single mother, was placed in congregation with a supervisor who would make sure she wouldn't succeed. Other classmates I talked to, said that the seminary made the right call. She did not have the skills for ordained ministry.)


The other friend recognized that it was a bad match, and jumped through the extra hoops, including further psych tests, a second internship; and after six years of seminary, was ordained. He continues to serve in the ELCA.


We are not like Robert Duvall in the movie, The Apostle, who baptizes himself and declares himself to be "the apostle," and begins preaching on the radio and in a congregation.


You know as well as I that our church bodies do not ordain everyone who feels that he (or she) is called by God.
But time and again when the topic of women's ordination comes up, Charles and you will trot out all the women who feel that they are called by God to be pastors and how dare we deny them.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2021, 11:54:57 PM
Pastor Fienen:
But time and again when the topic of women's ordination comes up, Charles and you will trot out all the women who feel that they are called by God to be pastors and how dare we deny them.
Me:
And you will try to tell us.
Can you point me at least to a scholarly presentation on why in Confessional Lutheranism women may not be ordained? I am often interested in your CTCR papers.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 21, 2021, 02:14:40 AM
Setting aside the difficulty that some have in respecting and dealing politely with those with whom they disagree, what should be our interpretive rule? When someone claims that God is calling them to a particular Office, profession, or activity is it incumbent on the rest of us to simply believe their perception of God's calling and place them in that Office?


By have processes by which the church affirms that inner call from God. In the ELCA, a candidate needs recommendations by their pastor and synod candidacy committee, and psychological evaluations before they can get into seminary. They need to pass their seminary courses and evaluations by the candidacy committee. They need to receive a Call from a congregation.


Two friends flunked their internships. One took that as a sign and dropped out of seminary. (Some friends of hers believe that she, as a single mother, was placed in congregation with a supervisor who would make sure she wouldn't succeed. Other classmates I talked to, said that the seminary made the right call. She did not have the skills for ordained ministry.)


The other friend recognized that it was a bad match, and jumped through the extra hoops, including further psych tests, a second internship; and after six years of seminary, was ordained. He continues to serve in the ELCA.


We are not like Robert Duvall in the movie, The Apostle, who baptizes himself and declares himself to be "the apostle," and begins preaching on the radio and in a congregation.


You know as well as I that our church bodies do not ordain everyone who feels that he (or she) is called by God.
But time and again when the topic of women's ordination comes up, Charles and you will trot out all the women who feel that they are called by God to be pastors and how dare we deny them.


Frankly, I'm glad you deny them. A number of them have come into the ELCA and are excellent pastors for us. They come with all of that good confessional training the LCMS is so good at teaching. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 21, 2021, 08:04:10 AM
Pastor Fienen:
But time and again when the topic of women's ordination comes up, Charles and you will trot out all the women who feel that they are called by God to be pastors and how dare we deny them.
Me:
And you will try to tell us.
Can you point me at least to a scholarly presentation on why in Confessional Lutheranism women may not be ordained? I am often interested in your CTCR papers.

You specifically asked about the CTCR.  Here is a link: https://www.lcms.org/about/leadership/commission-on-theology-and-church-relations/documents/man-and-woman-in-the-church

For more in-depth study, here is a book edited by the current LCMS president and containing a number of chapters by professors (current and past) from both St. Louis and Fort Wayne seminaries, among others: https://www.cph.org/p-19258-women-pastors-third-edition.aspx
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 10:05:08 AM
Thank you. Most of those documents have been in my files for some time. I shall take another look at them and look at the ones that are relatively new to me. Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: jebutler on March 21, 2021, 12:10:54 PM

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


5.  I understand your viewpoint and whence it comes and since I think it is very wrong, I do not respect it.

Right back at you!


6.  I do not expect you to respect my viewpoint.

Since I know you loved Rush Limbaugh, I'll simply say "Ditto."

But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Randy Bosch on March 21, 2021, 12:58:45 PM
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 21, 2021, 01:04:17 PM

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


While there are numerous church bodies who have moved to ordain women; are there any church bodies who went the other way? Namely, stopped ordaining women after it had been approved?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 21, 2021, 01:06:25 PM

3.  Since I believe God wants women to be ordained, I believe that someday you will understand that too, and ordain them.

Since I believe that God does not want women to be ordained, "I believe that someday you will understand that too" and will repent of your error.


While there are numerous church bodies who have moved to ordain women; are there any church bodies who went the other way? Namely, stopped ordaining women after it had been approved?

One that comes immediately to mind is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 21, 2021, 01:12:15 PM
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Randy Bosch on March 21, 2021, 01:25:52 PM
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.

Note that your response is not related to the question, to wit, "Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?  You addressed secular issues, not ordained ministry.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 21, 2021, 02:02:11 PM
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.

Note that your response is not related to the question, to wit, "Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?  You addressed secular issues, not ordained ministry.
True. Yet there is a striking parallel because secular and ecclesial developments, which to some argues for WO, and to others it, if not argues, at least reinforces arguments against it. The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 02:27:41 PM
Jebutler writes:
But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
I comment:
Nice try. But you overstate. No, in the ELCA, we are not very "tolerant" of those who say women should never be ordained. (But unlike you, we probably do not hound them out of the church body or bring them up on heresy charges.)  But we are "tolerant" of those - like the LCMS and the Roman Catholics, who do not yet ordain women; that is, we consider them valid Christians and in the case of the LCMS, valid Lutherans. But your church body calls us "heterodox" and loud voices in your church body say much worse things about us.
I would have no problem being in communion fellowship with the LCMS, but most of my ELCA colleagues would not, largely over the issue of women. And - glory be! - most (but not all) of your LCMS colleagues would not be in communion fellowship with the ELCA for exactly the same reason!
Peter writes:
The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.
I ask:
When was the "Western world" not "secularized"? And what does that mean? Medieval Europe was largely "Christianized," but how decent was that through the times of the Medici and Borgia popes, the union of church and state and the crusades or wars of religion?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 21, 2021, 02:30:16 PM
Peter writes:
But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
I comment:
Nice try. But you overstate. No, in the ELCA, we are not very "tolerant" of those who say women should never be ordained. (But unlike you, we probably do not hound them out of the church body or bring them up on heresy charges.)  But we are "tolerant" of those - like the LCMS and the Roman Catholics, who do not yet ordain women; that is, we consider them valid Christians and in the case of the LCMS, valid Lutherans. But your church body calls us "heterodox" and loud voices in your church body say much worse things about us.
I would have no problem being in communion fellowship with the LCMS, but most of my ELCA colleagues would not, largely over the issue of women. And - glory be! - most (but not all) of your LCMS colleagues would not be in communion fellowship with the ELCA for exactly the same reason!
Peter writes:
The secularization of the Western world shouldn’t show up in the church.
I ask:
When was the "Western world" not "secularized"? And what does that mean? Medieval Europe was largely "Christianized," but how decent was that through the times of the Medici and Borgia popes, the union of church and state and the crusades or wars of religion?
Actually, I never wrote what you say I wrote. You’re mixed up in your quotations. Again.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 21, 2021, 02:45:41 PM
Does it really matter who said what? Progressives are much into collective guilt. If you are conservative or traditional then you are automatically responsible for anything that anyone on the conservative side of things said, whether you said it or not or even agree with it or not.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2021, 02:49:03 PM
Certainly this afternoon it's worth noting the second most powerful person affiliated with the Jesuit cause in the world.  Of course I'm speaking of Sister Jean Schmidt of Ignatius Loyola of Chicago.  The centenarian nun propelled her team into the Sweet 16 as they overcame the #1 seed, Illinois.  How does she do it?  Lutherans would like to know.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 02:54:38 PM
I fixed the one citation, Peter. The second one is definitely yours. And I should not of responded to someone who is still an anonymous poster. And you should’ve noticed that there was still an anonymous poster.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2021, 02:54:49 PM
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer



     


 

Thanks for remembering Jean Garton (+) in Women's History Month, Marie.  The daughter of an NYPD detective from Maspeth, Queens, Jean brought such incredible passion and purpose to the cause of Life.  I met Henry Hyde at an event some years ago, and his first question was to ask how Jean was doing.  He called her the brightest Lutheran light in the Pro-Life firmament.  Jean often met resistance within the re-pristinating element in the LCMS, even as she served on the CTCR and the Synod's Board of Directors.  She kept on keeping on through it all.  She could and did speak, eloquently, on matters practical, moral and theological. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 21, 2021, 03:04:34 PM
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer



     


 

Thanks for remembering Jean Garton (+) in Women's History Month, Marie.  The daughter of an NYPD detective from Maspeth, Queens, Jean brought such incredible passion and purpose to the cause of Life.  I met Henry Hyde at an event some years ago, and his first question was to ask how Jean was doing.  He called her the brightest Lutheran light in the Pro-Life firmament.  Jean often met resistance within the re-pristinating element in the LCMS, even as she served on the CTCR and the Synod's Board of Directors.  She kept on keeping on through it all.  She could and did speak, eloquently, on matters practical, moral and theological. 

Dave Benke

She once told me that I was a very good writer. I consider it one of the best compliments I ever received.   ;D

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2021, 03:13:47 PM
Back to the story and history of Lutheran women:

The late Jean Garton was a woman who promoted the LCMS pro-life stance within and beyond the synod.  Jean was a gifted writer, Who Broke the Baby and an outstanding public speaker.  She was also a woman who, when prepared to resume her teaching career, became pregnant.  It was not a planned pregnancy.  In her distress she considered an abortion.  Hers was the story only a woman could tell.

Jean Garton became a highly sought after speaker within the LCMS.  Requests came to speak at LCMS Youth Gatherings that included a worship element.  She was also asked to speak to students at Concordia College at daily chapel.  Pastors invited her to have a dialog question and answer message with the pastor during worship. 

There were critics who questioned whether Jean was "speaking" or "preaching."

Thirty years ago Jean led a retreat for Atlantic District pastor's wives. Late one evening, she and I had a private chat about when LCMS women could in good conscience "speak" in public, including a worship service.  At the time I was part of the LCMS Human Care and World Relief "Speakers Bureau."  Pastor's invited me to "speak" to their congregation on Sunday morning on how Christian families can respond to world hunger.  When a daughter was a student at Concordia Bronxville, the college president asked me to speak to the students in chapel on how they could respond to world hunger.  When my message was printed in the Concordia Bronxville newsletter, a brother in Christ called to say I had sinned.

Until the time of her death Jean, when invited, continued to "speak"a biblical pro life message during a worship service. She would speak from the lectern in her Sunday dress.  Like Jean, I accepted invitations from LCMS pastors to tell the story of LCMS Human Care and World Relief.  It was my practice to relate a biblical passage to how families, particularly the moms, can respond to our Lord's command to feed the hungry. Like Jean, I spoke from the lectern in my Sunday dress

Are LCMS pastors misguided/sinning when they invited a woman to "speak" during a worship service about an area of the Christian life from her perspective as a woman?   

Marie Meyer



     


 

Thanks for remembering Jean Garton (+) in Women's History Month, Marie.  The daughter of an NYPD detective from Maspeth, Queens, Jean brought such incredible passion and purpose to the cause of Life.  I met Henry Hyde at an event some years ago, and his first question was to ask how Jean was doing.  He called her the brightest Lutheran light in the Pro-Life firmament.  Jean often met resistance within the re-pristinating element in the LCMS, even as she served on the CTCR and the Synod's Board of Directors.  She kept on keeping on through it all.  She could and did speak, eloquently, on matters practical, moral and theological. 

Dave Benke

I'll tag on to this post.

Because it comes up from time to time, it should be stated that women are not forbidden from speaking during worship in the Missouri Synod.  In other areas, women, as laypersons, can and do serve in congregational leadership posts at the level of committee and board heads, congregational president and vice-president.  And they may speak then at some point in or after the worship service on matters in the area of their congregational service.  So there's that.

But further, women are not forbidden from reading Scripture lessons in the congregations of the Missouri Synod.  As lay persons  they are not forbidden from reading Scripture lessons in the congregations of the Missouri Synod.  In such capacity they are speaking directly from the Word of God.  If you would like to see several women reading lessons in a Missouri Synod congregation, you can go to St. Peter's Lutheran Brooklyn on Facebook and watch today's Divine Service.

In some congregations, there are other portions of the service during which women as lay persons may offer a prayer petition, bring a testimony of what God has done in their lives, offer an invitation to various congregational ministries, or present a children's message.  This morning a woman lay person who had received her second vaccination offered a testimony and a word of encouragement to others of the blessing received in the vaccination and the process of getting to be vaccinated.

These are all areas of permissible service in which women lay persons are speaking in the sanctuary.  I will double check, but I'm pretty sure Jean, Ruth Koch, and Betty Duda, to mention three LCMS women, spoke to us after the sermon (offered by yours truly), during the Divine Service to bring encouragement from a lay person's perspective. 

I don't have to add this, because it's a tautology, but I used the tautology throughout this post -  all women in the LCMS are lay persons. 
Which goes to this final point.  All LCMS women are lay persons - some are on the Synod's roster but in positions auxiliary to the pastoral office - because the studies undertaken by the LCMS throughout the years leading to votes at various national conventions prohibit women from being ordained into the Office of the Holy Ministry, Pastoral.  This does not prohibit women lay persons from speaking during the Divine Service under pastoral supervision.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 21, 2021, 03:52:31 PM
Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?

What arguments?  Nothing has changed since the Apostle Paul provided instruction, as found in his various letters in the New Testament.


Much has changed since the first century. Women are no longer required to cover their heads to give one example. I note some changes off the top of my head in the 20th century: women were given the right to vote; a wife could charge her husband with rape; women could get their own credit cards and establish their own credit separate from their husbands. Women are serving in many positions that had been "men-only," e.g., senators, representatives, vice-president, doctors, lawyers, engineers, truck drivers. Conversely, there are male nurses and secretaries and home-makers; roles that had been limited to women.


I also note, as I posted in another discussion, that the Roman Catholic argument for male-only clergy does not rest on Paul's instructions.

Note that your response is not related to the question, to wit, "Can I assume that nothing much has changed about the basic arguments presented concerning women in ordained ministry?  You addressed secular issues, not ordained ministry.


I addressed cultural issues. The cultural issues that led Paul to write what he did about women, i.e., hair length, head coverings, silence, authority, back in the first century have changed a lot.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: jebutler on March 21, 2021, 04:03:01 PM
Jebutler writes:
But thanks for admitting that you are sure you are right and not at all tolerant of other opinions. Just like you often accuse the LCMS of being!
I comment:
Nice try. But you overstate. No, in the ELCA, we are not very "tolerant" of those who say women should never be ordained. (But unlike you, we probably do not hound them out of the church body or bring them up on heresy charges.) 

I remember how you like to define words. In this case "probably do not hound them out" = tell them, "Get out and don't let the door hit you on the way out." (And yeah, you'll bring them up on heresy charges as well.)

Unlike you, I've interviewed five men from the ELCA who have sought to join Missouri. One was a seminarian at LSTP who was told that if he didn't believe that women should be ordained, and if he wasn't willing to be taught by the other voices around him, he needed to leave. He lost an entire year's worth of credits, but eventually graduated CSL. Another was an unordained seminary graduate (LSTP/Yale) who was told by Bishop Eaton that she would make sure he never entered the ministry. The other three were ELCA pastors who came in via colloquy and were told by various the New England Synod bishop that they would need to find another church body due to their narrow minded ways (this was the same bishop who told me that Lutheran Forum was edited, and featured writing, by fundamentalists).

That's five I know in this hot bed of Lutheranism known as New England. Then there was guy who transferred to CSL from Trinity my last year in seminary; he and his wife lived across the hall from us. I'm sure there are plenty of others who have had the same happen to them.

So please don't try to tell me what the ELCA would "probably" do. I've met guys who've told me exactly what they actually do.

I get it. The ELCA believes women should be pastors. As such, it makes no sense to have pastors who reject that position and the ELCA will remove pastors who teach in opposition of its official positions. That makes perfect sense to me. I just don't get why you don't think Missouri should do the same.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 21, 2021, 04:14:09 PM
A couple of random comments.


The question was raised of whether there were any more recent articles defending the ban on ordaining women. Has there been any recent articles raising new theological (rather than sociological or political) arguments in favor of the ordination of women or refuting past theological arguments against? My impression, tucked away as I am, semi-retired, and out of the mainstream of Missouri angst, is that women's ordination is just not that "hot" of a topic being generally considered a settled question. What new insights need to be examined that had not been raised before the turning of the millennium?


Talking about Women's History Month as pertains to Lutheranism, it should be apparent that various women who were not ordained have lived exemplary Christian lives and made numerous significant contributions to Christendom and Lutheranism. This idea that one must be ordained to follow God's calling to His children or to be recognized as doing so seems out of place.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 21, 2021, 04:40:17 PM
I'm not sure that this has any place in a Women's History Month thread, but here goes. Consider my father. He was never ordained, never graduated from seminary or even college (one year, then he dropped out and went to work). He was a life long Lutheran and throughout the vast majority of his adult life he served in various church offices and on various boards and committees almost continuously. He raised a family of devout Lutherans including a Lutheran pastor and a Lutheran church musician/Lutheran college professor. My father throughout much of his life was not one of those who received great honors for his service or even much notice, but he was one of those who were instrumental in keeping the church functioning. In retirement he along with a group of other lay people founded a mission congregation with the held of his district. There he typically served as an elder and for stretches of time when they did not have a pastor of their own would work with an area pastor to keep services going and shepherding the flock. Many Sundays he would have taken a sermon from Concordia Pulpit edit it for length and vocabulary and deliver it so that they could have a worship service. He, as much as anyone else, kept that small congregation going. All this without ordination, just doing what he could and what he was called upon to do to serve his Lord and his church.


My point is that lay people are often very important in the Kingdom. That applies to lay women also. Rosa Young was never ordained but a hero of the faith. As a young woman she pioneered education among the Blacks of central Alabama. Around 1914 the area was devastated by the Mexican Boll Weevil that destroyed much of the cotton crop upon which the local economy depended. Seeking support for the school where she taught she applied to many place for help. Finally applying to the Tuskegee Institute who suggest that she contact the LCMS. They supplied funds and a missionary pastor. Over the next years Rosa worked with the Rev. Nils J. Baake and established several schools and planted a number of churches. https://www.lcms.org/thefirstrosa (https://www.lcms.org/thefirstrosa)   Honoring her for her service is not dependent on her being ordained. 

Women's ordination is a topic that can well be discussed, but recognizing the service of women is not dependent on that.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 21, 2021, 05:48:47 PM
I fixed the one citation, Peter. The second one is definitely yours. And I should not of responded to someone who is still an anonymous poster. And you should’ve noticed that there was still an anonymous poster.

I am waiting for Moderator Johnson to say something about Rev. Austin obsessing over the moderating of the forum, or telling him that he is free to leave, as he does when I comment on the moderating here.  But I think I will be a LONG time waiting.  Rev. Austin gets a free pass.  Again.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 05:59:36 PM
Agreed that certain men who cannot accept the full ministry of their colleagues, should probably not be pastors in the ELCA. Agreed those who approach the Scriptures from a fundamentalist perspective would probably feel very uncomfortable in the ELCA and because of those views on scripture might not be very effective as leaders.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 21, 2021, 06:23:12 PM
Agreed that certain men who cannot accept the full ministry of their colleagues, should probably not be pastors in the ELCA. Agreed those who approach the Scriptures from a fundamentalist perspective would probably feel very uncomfortable in the ELCA and because of those views on scripture might not be very effective as leaders.

Agreed that those who cannot accept the words of Scripture should probably not be pastors in the LCMS.  Agreed that those who approach Scripture as merely "containing" the Word of God (and so each reader/interpreter is free to pick and choose what he/she "feels" is really God's Word) would probably feel uncomfortable in the LCMS and not be very effective as pastors/leaders in the Church.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on March 21, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
I personally have interacted with women who were pastors over the years and I rarely had any trouble dealing with them politely, professionally, and respectfully.

I, too, have always interacted well with the women pastors in the communities where I've served. How do I address them? Pastor ....

Back in about 1999, I took a post-M.Div course at Luther Seminary in St. Paul. Confession class with Jim Nestingen. Fantastic class! This was before they booted Jim.

Anyway, once the younger students, men and women, heard that I was an LCMS pastor, they refused to even speak to me much less be friendly. Already, they were all so woke and canceled me, the sectarian guy. A woman pastor, probably late 30s, befriended me. I always sat next to her, and we had great conversations before class. I had great respect for her.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 06:42:02 PM
Make that “as pastors/leaders in the Church” read “as pastors/leaders in our church” and we sort of agree.
But suppose God were to call me into your church body (it’s possible) and while in there I would advocate for a change in your policy?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 21, 2021, 07:02:51 PM
I personally have interacted with women who were pastors over the years and I rarely had any trouble dealing with them politely, professionally, and respectfully.

I, too, have always interacted well with the women pastors in the communities where I've served. How do I address them? Pastor ....

Back in about 1999, I took a post-M.Div course at Luther Seminary in St. Paul. Confession class with Jim Nestingen. Fantastic class! This was before they booted Jim.

Anyway, once the younger students, men and women, heard that I was an LCMS pastor, they refused to even speak to me much less be friendly. Already, they were all so woke and canceled me, the sectarian guy. A woman pastor, probably late 30s, befriended me. I always sat next to her, and we had great conversations before class. I had great respect for her.

I had interactions with female clergy during my graduate studies at Nashotah House, an Anglican seminary with the TEC.  I was fortunate that many had little experience, it seems, with LCMS clergy, so I was treated much better than Pr. Kirchner was at Luther Sem. I saw myself as a guest in the midst of the Anglicans and was simply there to study, so issues of women's ordination was not a part of discussions of which I was a part, nor did they come up in any of my classes.  I certainly didn't initiate anything.  My classes were substantive and not antagonistic to my own faith and I felt quite comfortable studying there.  Admittedly, Nashotah was Anglo-Catholic and much more conservative than the TEC is generally. 
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 21, 2021, 07:08:39 PM
Make that “as pastors/leaders in the Church” read “as pastors/leaders in our church” and we sort of agree.
But suppose God were to call me into your church body (it’s possible) and while in there I would advocate for a change in your policy?
In the LCMS as in the ELCA it takes more than just someone stepping up and proclaiming that they had perceived that God had called them into the pastoral ministry in the church body. Pr. Stoffregen gave what I think is a good summary of how in the ELCA that calling from God is examined and certified. https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7769.msg498963#msg498963 (https://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7769.msg498963#msg498963)

If God called you into the LCMS (you see that as possible) you would need to satisfy the colloquy committee that you are qualified for the pastoral ministry in the LCMS and your theology is compatible with ours. I agree with what you posted earlier:

Agreed that certain men who cannot accept the full ministry of their colleagues, should probably not be pastors in the ELCA. Agreed those who approach the Scriptures from a fundamentalist perspective would probably feel very uncomfortable in the ELCA and because of those views on scripture might not be very effective as leaders.

That those whose understanding of the ministry and approach to Scripture differs significantly from the church body in which they seek to be a pastor that would likely not be a good fit and they might be advised to serve elsewhere.

But if you had accepted a call to pastor an LCMS church (and recognize that there is a rule that LCMS churches may only call rostered LCMS pastors unless the District President gives them permission to go outside the roster for some extraordinary reason {isn't that basically the same in the ELCA? I believe that there are rules prohibiting, for example, NALC pastors from serving ELCA churches}) and wished to dissent from the standard LCMS teaching on women's ordination, there are procedures for making and expressing that dissent. So, within limits, you could advocate to change that position.

LCMS Handbook, November, 2021 edition, page 35
Quote
1.8 Dissent
1.8.1 While retaining the right of brotherly dissent, members of the Synod are
expected as part of the life together within the fellowship of the Synod to
honor and uphold the resolutions of the Synod.
1.8.2 Dissent from the doctrinal position of the Synod as expressed in its
resolutions and doctrinal statements is to be expressed first within the
fellowship of peers (that is, with those who are competent to evaluate the
issue critically) and then brought to the attention of the Commission on
Theology and Church Relations before finding expression as an overture to
the Synod in convention calling for revision or rescission. The discussion
among the fellowship of peers is to be conducted privately and
confidentially among those who are competent rather than in a public
forum. While the conscience of the dissenter shall be respected, the
consciences of others, as well as the collective will of the Synod, shall also
be respected.
1.8.3 This right of brotherly dissent does not allow a member of the Synod
publicly to teach or practice contrary to the established doctrinal position
of the Synod. Any such public teaching shall place in jeopardy membership
in the Synod.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2021, 07:52:04 PM
Make that “as pastors/leaders in the Church” read “as pastors/leaders in our church” and we sort of agree.
But suppose God were to call me into your church body (it’s possible) and while in there I would advocate for a change in your policy?

Let me put on my ecclesiastical supervisor hat on that one, Charles, for a moment - your pathway to the Missouri Synod would be through the Colloquy process. 
As part of that process, you would send in your CV to the President of the District in which you reside (or, I think, one of the non-geographical district presidents), and a couple interviews would be arranged.  There's a part of that process where people can add a word of encouragement or warning for whatever reason they think important. The district would have its president and/or committee working with you to determine whether you were good to go to the colloquy interview itself. 

 At the interview, you would be questioned at length about all kinds of doctrinal positions and it would be important for you to know in advance the doctrinal positions of the LCMS.  Most importantly, you would have to state that the positions of the LCMS are basically yours and that if there are any differences, you would not publicly teach differently from the doctrinal positions of Synod but would avail yourself of the dissent process as outlined in the Synod Handbook where there are any differences.

You would have to come up with a way to swim through those waters prior to roster admission.  The Colloquy Committee, chaired by the First Vice President of the LCMS, has a subgroup that would meet with you, have a colloquium, so to speak, and then get back to you and the district president as to your admission or your need to take care of x or y. 

I'll just say that under almost all circumstances, I didn't want to waste the colloquy committee's time nationally with somebody who wasn't suitable, so we worked hard at the district level to both ascertain suitability and prepare people for the interview. 

Let's say you got through and were rostered LCMS.  You could then converse with your peers in ministry at the local or regional level about your concerns with regard to limiting the ordained office to men, and bat it around at that level.  But you could not teach that publicly to your people, assuming you had a congregation.

I think all of that aspect is somewhat odd because it was designed pre-internet.  So you'd type out a paper on your Hermes typewriter, run 10 copies through your Gestetner and share them only with the peers in your area, because of the cost of postage and mailing.  Today you could reach 5000 people with one punch of a button, but somehow if you did it correctly it would not be "public teaching" and if you did it incorrectly it would be public teaching.  There's theory on that.

"Let's say you got through and were rostered LCMS."  One day prior to your rostering, it's highly possible that the eschaton might occur.

Dave Benke

Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2021, 08:00:21 PM
To the always delightful, well-informed, pastoral guy and staunch, life-long LC-MSer who has been Bishop, Pastor, and defendant...😺😸😺
And I guess you should shred that CV and request for colloquy letter.  😈
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 21, 2021, 09:30:18 PM
To the always delightful, well-informed, pastoral guy and staunch, life-long LC-MSer who has been Bishop, Pastor, and defendant...😺😸😺
And I guess you should shred that CV and request for colloquy letter.  😈
Honestly Charles, would you recommend a pastor from the LCMS whose beliefs re limits on ordination are in line with the LCMS for admission to the ministerium of the ELCA?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 22, 2021, 01:42:23 AM
If God called you into the LCMS (you see that as possible) you would need to satisfy the colloquy committee that you are qualified for the pastoral ministry in the LCMS and your theology is compatible with ours. I agree with what you posted earlier:


A more likely scenario: what if the local LCMS pastor asked if I would preach for him while he was on vacation. (That has not happened; but I have used a retired LCMS pastor to fill in for me - and we have communion every week. I got his name from my ELCA colleague who had also used him.) Would that be permitted?


Since using him, I've also used a couple of retired Presbyterian ministers, and an UCC minister who was without call. All three of them were worshiping regularly with us. I'd also used a couple seminary graduate who were doing an extended CPE at our local hospital and worshiping with us. I got permission from the bishop so that they could preside over the sacrament.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 22, 2021, 06:45:11 AM
Back to the topic. Good plan.

Since the Reformation, there have been millions of faithful Lutheran women. Which ones might we remember and celebrate as exemplary for the sake of history and the future of the church? I started a little list from YouTube videos. Marie has named some notable deaconesses. Can we add productively to that list?

Sure.  My mother and my mother-in-law would be the first two on my list.  Taught their children the faith.  Excellent and supportive wives.  Between them, hundreds of miles apart, they probably served their congregations in just about every role: Sunday school teacher, organist, LWML, church secretary, volunteer extraordinaire, mentor to generations of younger women, Christian example to all.  Devoted to the Gospel, to the Church, to missions.  Smiling, friendly, welcoming, warm.  Living embodiments of the faith.

Thank you, Steven. In the ancient church, exemplary women were remembered and celebrated through what became saints' lives. Lutherans and the Lutheran confessions embraced that tradition of good examples, which is what I would put forward to our congregation.

As I look over Lutheran histories, I'm not finding much of this ready to hand. I think we're not doing to good a job with it. LWML might have some such stories but no one has been able to link me to such sources. I think this may be a genuine gap in our history and even in our piety.

Have you considered writing up something about the family members you mentioned as exemplary Lutheran women?

I wonder, are there modern Lutheran women who were martyred, which is one of the ancient categories for such lives. What Lutheran women resisted the Nazis and communists? Showed special care for the poor, etc.?

EDWARD,

I think a fruitful place to start looking for exemplary Christian women would be, New Book of Festivals and Commemorations by Philip H. Pfatteicher, Fortress Press. There will be entries on women scattered through the entire history of the Church. Each entry includes an account of their lives as we are able to know it.   ;D

Peace, JOHN

Thanks, John and others who have recommended Pfatteicher, which appears to be out of print. Does his book include Lutheran women or just Christian women in general? If he includes Lutherans, which ones?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 22, 2021, 07:20:45 AM
I may have found an example of what I was looking for: Nurse Clara Louise Maass (1876--1901). From what I've seen so far, Clara was a self-sacrificing nurse from a devoutly Lutheran family in New Jersey. While in Cuba with the army, she volunteered to be bitten by mosquitoes carrying yellow fever in the search for a cure to that disease. Volunteers would contract the disease and colleagues would study the person's recovery. During Clara's testing, she succumbed to the fever and died. Clara Maass Medical Center in Belleville, NJ, once called Lutheran Memorial Hospital, is dedicated to her memory (if I've understood correctly).

This is the life of a Lutheran woman we should remember.

Below is a video about Clara. Notice the Luther seal in the picture with Clara. If our East Coast Lutherans on the forum know more about Clara, I'd be grateful to hear more since I may like to share this with my congregation.

https://youtu.be/M50mheAyEiA (https://youtu.be/M50mheAyEiA)

I have also found that CPH published Tengbom, No Greater Love about Clara in 1978.

I'm finding her story is complicated by her dismissal from service in the Philippines. Some say it was due to illness and need to recover. Sources mention dengue fever and yellow fever. One researcher reports scandalous gossip about Clara needing an abortion, which led to her dismissal and dismissal of an accuser. Before long, however, she was taken back into service with the Yellow Fever team in Cuba, where she died.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: John_Hannah on March 22, 2021, 09:38:56 AM

EDWARD,

I think a fruitful place to start looking for exemplary Christian women would be, New Book of Festivals and Commemorations by Philip H. Pfatteicher, Fortress Press. There will be entries on women scattered through the entire history of the Church. Each entry includes an account of their lives as we are able to know it.   ;D

Peace, JOHN

Thanks, John and others who have recommended Pfatteicher, which appears to be out of print. Does his book include Lutheran women or just Christian women in general? If he includes Lutherans, which ones?

In adherence to the Augsburg Confession I would include those women who came along before the Reformation and are commemorated by Pfatteicher. (That includes numerous women honored in the Bible [and the LSB].) I scanned Pfateicher's list and identified a couple of post-Reformation Lutherans. Elizabeth Fedde and Elizabeth Fliedner. Catherine Winkworth translated many Lutheran hymns found in our American hymnals and spent many years in Germany where she no doubt worshiped with the Lutherans.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 22, 2021, 11:34:16 AM
Clara Maas is Rather well-known in New Jersey congregations and her day is celebrated as a tribute to nurses.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 22, 2021, 06:31:38 PM
Clara Maas is Rather well-known in New Jersey congregations and her day is celebrated as a tribute to nurses.

Cool! Any idea we which congregation her family attended?
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on March 22, 2021, 06:47:32 PM
She would probably have been affiliated with a congregation in Newark, and the number of congregations in Newark changed drastically throughout the 20th century.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on April 15, 2021, 07:08:05 PM
I've followed up on the controversial information about Nurse Clara Maass. It is reported by Dr. Carol Emerson Winters in her article, "Clara Louise Maass: Servant Leader Undaunted," which is published in Nursing’s Greatest Leaders: A History of Activism (2016). It is interesting that Clara is being presented as a nursing activist alongside the eugenicist and birth control advocate, Margaret Sanger. They are presented together in a section of the book with the subheading, "Challenging the Process."

Winters makes a case that Clara likely had an abortion. Early biographers say the reason for  Clara's dismissal from service in the Philippines was the need to recover from dengue fever but that is not stated in the documentation.

Winter's case is founded upon an assertion by Clara's roommate, a fellow nurse, that Clara had an affair with an officer and boasted that she could have an abortion and no one would be able to challenge her and the officer. The documentation describes the roommate's assertion as gossip. Both women were dismissed from contract nursing "for cause." The stated reason in the documentation was to protect the reputation of contract nursing, which was a fairly new program with the U. S. Army. There appears to be no official report that Clara had an affair or an abortion. The assertion is based on the "unpleasant gossip" mentioned in the report, supplemented by speculation about the length of Clara's stay (five days) in San Francisco on her way home, which Winters suggestions may have been for recovery from abortion.

Further circumstances put the matter in yet a different light. When Clara offered to go to Cuba to serve with researchers of Yellow Fever, she was picked up immediately. There is a mere five month gap between the two events.

I find myself wanting to read the referenced documents from the National Archives and Records Administration. Unfortunately, they are not immediately available on the NARA website. I'm also curious about Clara's correspondence at this time and whether reading the two sources together might clarify matters.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Dave Likeness on April 15, 2021, 07:34:20 PM
May is National Tavern Month in America   Perhaps some of our Lutheran forefathers
from Germany would have been proud to honor it.  As Lutherans of the 21st century
we can hoist our beer stein to the local pub where everyone knows your name.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on May 10, 2021, 08:20:56 AM
Here is an interesting life. The article describes her as Lutheran.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57008360 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57008360)
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 10, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
Indeed! Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Charles Austin on May 10, 2021, 09:05:43 AM
Not only Lutheran, but spoke of her faith as a source of her resistance. There is a movie, Sophie Scholl: The Final Days. It’s in German.
Title: Re: Women's History Month
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on May 10, 2021, 09:45:35 PM
I have linked to Sophie Scholl: The Final Days, with English subtitles. It is a very good drama depicting the faith and efforts of Sophie, her brother, and others. I may use this for a Bible Study in the future.

https://youtu.be/baRvF6ZBK18 (https://youtu.be/baRvF6ZBK18)