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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on January 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM

Title: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on January 07, 2021, 01:19:55 PM
Resource question: Our congregation has been using Clements H. Zeidler, Altar Prayers for the Church Year (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1962). I'm looking for a new prayer resource. I see the one-year and three-year series on the LCMS website and wonder the following.

1. Is there a print edition of these prayer on the LCMS site? Is there a master file to download them all at once?
2. Are there other similar resources available?
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Weedon on January 07, 2021, 03:25:45 PM
Edward,

The answer to #1 is no and no.

On #2, this one seems to have excellent ratings. I havenít check it out personally, but might be worth investigating: Prayers of the Faithful
by Amazon.com
Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0899423698/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_tk49FbXH2ARHQ

Iíll close with one observation: It seems to me that it was, overall, a mistake to deviate from the original Lutheran liturgical instinct of treating the Prayer of the Church as an ordinary to making it be a proper. What we need to ask of God really doesnít change all that much with the readings; and trying to tie them all together sometimes comes across to me as rather forced and pedestrian. YMMV
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2021, 05:30:00 PM
There are four lengthy and complete prayers in the altar book. I rotate through those options. Two are all spoken by the pastor and two have responsive portions. I also make use of some of the shorter options in the service book- General Thanksgiving, Praise and Supplication. I think those are the titles.

Is the book you currently use a red hard cover book? We have a copy of that in the sacristy and I use it from time to time. I update the language a bit.  I like that book.

Jeremy

 
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Weedon on January 07, 2021, 09:09:35 PM
Jeremy,

We use those a lot too. Pastor particularly relies on them for the Wednesday midweek service, but we hear them sometimes on Sunday too. They have MUCH to commend them.
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on January 07, 2021, 09:20:30 PM
Iíll close with one observation: It seems to me that it was, overall, a mistake to deviate from the original Lutheran liturgical instinct of treating the Prayer of the Church as an ordinary to making it be a proper. What we need to ask of God really doesnít change all that much with the readings; and trying to tie them all together sometimes comes across to me as rather forced and pedestrian. YMMV

The only prayer I ever used from Sundays and Seasons was one that was an adaptation and augmentation of the Te Deum.

However, I found some wonderful, lectionary-based intercessions in the series God's Word is our Joy by Lucien Deiss which addressed most of the traditional Altar Prayers through the lens of the lessons.  Sometimes a petition or two had to be edited or excised to avoid Roman heresies, but otherwise far better than S & S.
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: John_Hannah on January 08, 2021, 06:27:56 AM
The ALPB publishes Prayers of the People: Petitionary Prayers Guided by the Texts for the Day by Richard Bansemer. There is a prayer for every Sunday in the 3 Year Cycle.

https://alpb.org/books/prayers-of-the-people-petitionary-prayers-guided-by-the-texts-for-the-day/
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on January 08, 2021, 10:30:42 AM
Ed and everyone, here are the page numbers from the LSB Altar Book that might be helpful- 436-445.  These are the prayers that I most typically use.  They include: For Profitable Use of the Word, General Thanksgiving, General Intercession, For Pardon Growth in Grace and Divine Protection, Praise and Supplication, Adoration Praise and Supplication, General Prayer 1, General Prayer 2, Prayer of the Church Responsive Form, and Prayer of the Church Ektene Form. 

I am making the assumption that your congregation doesn't have the LSB Altar Book. My apologies if my assumption was wrong. 

Will, what does Ektene mean?

Jeremy
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Weedon on January 08, 2021, 10:46:18 AM
Ektenne form uses the format of the litany of St Jn Chrysostom, Basil etc where the form is: for..... let us pray to the Lord: Lord, have mercy. So the actual prayer is the peopleís response and the deacon or priest merely bids the intention toward which that Lord, have mercy is being directed.
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on January 08, 2021, 12:18:19 PM
Ektenne form uses the format of the litany of St Jn Chrysostom, Basil etc where the form is: for..... let us pray to the Lord: Lord, have mercy. So the actual prayer is the peopleís response and the deacon or priest merely bids the intention toward which that Lord, have mercy is being directed.


I recall getting a bit dizzy when facing the people during the invitation to pray "for Ö " then turning towards the altar (against the wall) for the people's actual prayer; then back to the people, then to the altar.
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: GalRevRedux on January 08, 2021, 12:26:35 PM
Prayers of the Church related to lectionary themes are posted on the Lutheran CORE website. They are written by Rev. Cathy Ammlung, STS. We use them and I highly recommend them. http://lutherancore.website/worship/prayers-of-the-church/ (http://lutherancore.website/worship/prayers-of-the-church/)

Donna
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Weedon on January 08, 2021, 12:57:13 PM
I think, Brian, you are confusing the Ektenne form with the Bidding Prayer. The Bidding Prayer is the classic Western form that sadly early disappeared from the mass save for on Good Friday. But in it, the deacon did indeed bid facing the people (and they were also told to kneel as they silently prayed for the bid, then to stand again when the priest prayed the collect). But the Ektenne form does not involve any turning at all. It is prayed toward the altar entirely.
Title: Re: Altar Prayers/Prayers of the Church
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on January 08, 2021, 03:47:24 PM
I think, Brian, you are confusing the Ektenne form with the Bidding Prayer. The Bidding Prayer is the classic Western form that sadly early disappeared from the mass save for on Good Friday. But in it, the deacon did indeed bid facing the people (and they were also told to kneel as they silently prayed for the bid, then to stand again when the priest prayed the collect). But the Ektenne form does not involve any turning at all. It is prayed toward the altar entirely.


I was taught, back in the connected-to-the-wall altar, that when speaking to the congregation we faced them. When the words are addressed to God, we faced the altar/wall. "For Ö, let us pray." is addressed to the people. "Lord, have mercy," is addressed to God.


Good Friday Bidding Prayers (which I normally used,) had an assistant speak the invitation to the congregation while facing them. I kept facing the altar during the invitation.


I once asked Paul Nelson when he was the head of the ELCA Worship about the petitions in Sundays and Seasons. Sometimes they were prayers addressed to God. Sometimes they were invitations to the congregation to pray. He said that the problem with the invitations is that they should be followed by a period of silence for prayer before the concluding, "Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer." The silence for prayers seldom happened.


For most of a latter days of ministry, there was a free-standing altar. Invitations and prayers were said behind it while facing the congregation. An added benefit, that another pastor just mentioned at lunch yesterday, is that a lot of people watch the speakers' mouth to help them understand what is being said. (I found that also true with singers being in front of the congregation rather than behind them.) Seeing the lips of a speaker helps people hear.