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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Julio on November 24, 2020, 05:07:32 PM

Title: Proud to be an American
Post by: Julio on November 24, 2020, 05:07:32 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 24, 2020, 07:00:37 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.

And I am one who never thought that America had ceased to be great.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Julio on November 24, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.

And I am one who never thought that America had ceased to be great.
Apparently you forgot the immortal words of Michelle Obama ... perhaps someone who is not having an outdoor Thanksgiving meal with family can provide those immortal words that currently escape me.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 24, 2020, 08:05:20 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.

And I am one who never thought that America had ceased to be great.
Apparently you forgot the immortal words of Michelle Obama ... perhaps someone who is not having an outdoor Thanksgiving meal with family can provide those immortal words that currently escape me.

Quote from: https://www.newsweek.com/michelle-obamas-proud-remarks-83559
For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 24, 2020, 08:29:53 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.

And I am one who never thought that America had ceased to be great.
Apparently you forgot the immortal words of Michelle Obama ... perhaps someone who is not having an outdoor Thanksgiving meal with family can provide those immortal words that currently escape me.

I am not Michelle Obama, so I don't see what her words have to do with my comment.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Julio on November 24, 2020, 09:03:36 PM
The Radio News just carried quote introducing cabinet appointees ... including the statement that we can be proud to be an American.

I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.

And I am one who never thought that America had ceased to be great.
Apparently you forgot the immortal words of Michelle Obama ... perhaps someone who is not having an outdoor Thanksgiving meal with family can provide those immortal words that currently escape me.

I am not Michelle Obama, so I don't see what her words have to do with my comment.
Itís doubtful that any one thought you were Michelle Obama .. but you know that!

As far as the rest ... well it is what it is!👀
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Charles Austin on November 24, 2020, 09:33:12 PM
America never stopped being great.
But at times we have wavered in tending the things that makes us great. Allowing slavery was one of those times. Oppression of women and the existence of Jim Crow laws another time. Ignoring racism and xenophobia, another time. Persecution of sexual minorities another time.
I think in the days ahead we may pay more attention to the things that can keep us great. This is good.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Julio on November 24, 2020, 09:51:01 PM
I for one already am already proud to be an American and pray that nothing changes that.
Itís great that we are in agreement ... being already proud to be an American and stating that America never ceased being great is saying the same thing in a slightly different manner.

Progress towards unity.👏👏😎
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Charles Austin on November 24, 2020, 11:11:23 PM
The point is that we need to be watchful and constantly take care of what is good within our land. We lag far behind other developed countries in some areas. If we do not care for our form of government or let it fall into disrepair, we will not be great.
We need humility, not excessive pride; repentance for our failings, not just trumpets for our accomplishments.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: RDPreus on November 25, 2020, 10:17:54 AM
America never stopped being great.
But at times we have wavered in tending the things that makes us great. Allowing slavery was one of those times. Oppression of women and the existence of Jim Crow laws another time. Ignoring racism and xenophobia, another time. Persecution of sexual minorities another time.
I think in the days ahead we may pay more attention to the things that can keep us great. This is good.

What is a sexual minority and how has America persecuted them?
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Charles Austin on November 25, 2020, 10:26:21 AM
Pastor Preus asks:
What is a sexual minority and how has America persecuted them?

I answer (not wanting to drift the thread):
Gays, lesbians, transgendered people, et al.
By mocking them. By denying them civil rights accorded to others, for example, with regard to marriage. By discrimination in some work places.
But you knew that.
And now we can all be proud that America is moving away from these former discriminations.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 25, 2020, 10:46:27 AM
I think that national pride is a tricky thing. As long as nations are led by fallible human beings we will do things that offend and disappoint some part of the citizenry. 

My "nation pride," as such, manifests itself in the bond I have with others in local community service.  It especially manifests itself, much like those in the military, when I don my uniform as a firefighter.  Although in the military, as well as other government services (such as fire service, EMS, law enforcement, etc.), politics are certain to intrude, by their nature they are designed as apolitical entities. They exist primarily to serve and protect the citizens of the nation. Maybe that is why I can feel some sense of national pride when I am rushing to a fire, lights and sirens blazing.  I know that I am serving my neighbor, which, I hope, embodies the best of our ideals. That is what the flag on my dress uniform sleeve represents.  Service to neighbor. 

The political polarization we have witnessed of late does not make its way down efficiently to those who serve their communities and its people in a direct and close way. Fire does not burn in party colors.  Sickness, despite the ongoing rhetoric with the pandemic, does not come because of political decisions.  Crime is a reality of a fallen creation, and as a nation we instinctively know that even though we want to expect the best, we often see the worst.  And when we see the worst we want a barrier of protection there to guard us from harm and danger.  That barrier wears a badge, and is not always popular, and is touched by sin as all things are, but the men and women who wear those uniforms are neighbors helping neighbors.  That, for me, is where the essence of our national spirit shines. 
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: RDPreus on November 25, 2020, 11:37:44 AM
Pastor Preus asks:
What is a sexual minority and how has America persecuted them?

I answer (not wanting to drift the thread):
Gays, lesbians, transgendered people, et al.
By mocking them. By denying them civil rights accorded to others, for example, with regard to marriage. By discrimination in some work places.
But you knew that.
And now we can all be proud that America is moving away from these former discriminations.

No, I did not know that.  That's why I asked.  Here is where the liberal civil rights movement moves away from the foundation for civil rights to which Americans have historically appealed.  The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness belongs to black as well as white people.  Slavery and Jim Crow denied equal rights to blacks.  As Americans we are well rid of them.  As far as the oppression of women is concerned, things are not so black and white.  The sanctity of marriage is crucial to protecting women's rights, but in the name of women's rights we have seen an attack on marriage.

But when you take what is clearly sinful, perverted, and condemned by God and say this must be given legal protection, you attack the foundation for all civil rights.  To promote same sex "marriage" is to attack the God who made us male and female.  By granting "sexual minorities" (that is, perverts) the legal right to engage in their perversions, you can no longer appeal to Nature's God, for you have denied his existence.  This is unchristian and unamerican. 
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Julio on November 25, 2020, 11:49:49 AM
I'm Proud To Be An American (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ox4IRQVGsBU) Lyrics

Quote
If tomorrow all the things were gone I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
ĎCause the flag still stands for freedom and they can't take that away.

And I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
ĎCause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,

From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there's pride in every American heart,
and it's time to stand and say:

I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
ĎCause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

Possibly a bit more appropriate for July 4th .. but the title fits this thread.😎
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 25, 2020, 12:02:58 PM
I think Make America Great Again had such a visceral impact as a slogan both among those who loved it and those who objected to it, because it speaks not about a particular year but a particular view of America. The "gotcha" question that snide detractors could always pose was, "When was America great?" Then, no matter what the answer, the questioner could point out some terrible injustice going on at the time and pin the crime of bigotry on the one who wanted to make America great again. Oooh, you really nailed him with that one! But the question misses the point. THe slogan isn't really talking about a specific era, it is talking about the place America occupies in our cultural imagination. Make patriotism cool. Embrace the founding story. It was a reaction to academia's incessant focus on the terribleness of America, the lens of oppression. We should once again think of America as the land of freedom and opportunity, the last, best hope of mankind, rather than thinking about it as the result of ruthless, racist, and ongoing colonial oppression. MAGA means reject the effort to make America something we should apologize for and reaffirm the idea of America as beacon of freedom and limitless possibility. As such, it inspired rah-rah patriotism on one side and disgust on the other.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 25, 2020, 12:21:24 PM

Pr. Austin and I disagree on many things. One of which is whether committed same sex relationships should be accorded the same status of marriage as heterosexual monogamous committed relationships. My Christian fellowship (the LCMS) has not and has no intention of recognizing same sex marriage as a valid marriage so far as our church is concerned. By and large we consider that recognition by the secular state to have been unwise and ultimately detrimental to our civil society. However, our opinion has not prevailed and we all will have to live with the consequences.


Pr. Austin holds the contrary opinion. He (so far as I can tell, it is unwise to speak definitively for another, especially when we disagree so much) believes that committed same sex relationships are acceptable to God and blessed by Him similarly to heterosexual marriage. So it is completely reasonable and consistent with his Christian faith for him to be thankful that his understanding has prevailed in civil society and that American laws have been adjusted to allow for that.


In my opinion, that does not make him unChristian, just in this area an erring Christian. That he also thinks that I am wrong and erring in this area should be obvious. However, that is nothing new. Nor should it be particularly offensive to either of us that we disagree. To be in error does not automatically make one not a Christian. In the long run, we'll see who is correct. Quite frankly, I think that we have more serious disagreements than this. (It's the same with disagreements that I've had with women pastors, generally I had much more serious theological disagreements with them than over whether or not women should be ordained.)


If I would draw up a list of things that I am thankful for America for, legalized same sex marriage would not be on my list as it is on Pr. Austin's, but so what? I'm sure that we do share some thanks, and I'm glad that we do.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 25, 2020, 12:54:58 PM
CBS This Morning (11/25) had a segment about using marriage counseling techniques on our divided nation.


https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_this_morning/video/XeaVRw1DLAXDT6SsdyHPGEv6d8kireqW/applying-couples-therapy-techniques-to-help-heal-america-s-fractured-political-relationship/


In a nutshell, it means that each side takes responsibility for their own role in causing the divide. It means not talking about what the other has done or is doing; but what I/we have done or are doing.


Essentially, it's a lot like Jesus' advice that we must look at the log in our own eyes before we can hope to see the splinter in another's eye.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 25, 2020, 01:13:24 PM
Brian, a good idea. But as with any couples counseling, it will take both to effectively implement it. It also takes putting aside the gotcha games to which both sides have become addicted.


Even if such a reconciliation process does not materialize. It would be useful for both sides to internally take stock of themselves. Even if we cannot rely on each other to improve our working together, we can improve our own behavior.


In my years of ministry, I've learned, for example that responding to angry people with anger or with self justifying defensiveness is rarely productive. Learning to move myself beyond instant responding anger and applying active listening skills doesn't always lead to resolution, but at times does, and even more often lowers the temperature of the interaction. Tit for tat does not move our country forward.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: RDPreus on November 25, 2020, 01:39:06 PM
To say that a position is unchristian is not necessarily to say that the one holding it is not a Christian.  When I am arguing that promoting same sex "marriage" is unchristian I am arguing a moral/theological argument about a particular position.  Same sex "marriage" is in contradiction to and is incompatible with the Christian religion.  Does this mean that a man who promotes same sex marriage is not a Christian?  That's a different question, a question I did not address, nor am I interested in addressing it.  But since you, Rev. Austin, cannot argue a coherent moral/theological argument in defense of your indefensible position in favor of same sex marriage, you change (twist) my words from identifying ~a position~ as unchristian to judging a man who promotes that position not to be a Christian. 
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 25, 2020, 02:37:25 PM
Brian, a good idea. But as with any couples counseling, it will take both to effectively implement it. It also takes putting aside the gotcha games to which both sides have become addicted.


Certainly, but we can't be concerned about whether or not the other side will implement it. Our focus needs to center on me/us, not them. What am I doing to help heal the divide?
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Charles Austin on November 25, 2020, 04:07:35 PM
Pastor Preusí denunciation stands. My attempt to respond to it has disappeared.
So carry on.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 25, 2020, 04:40:26 PM
Pastor Preusí denunciation stands. My attempt to respond to it has disappeared.
So carry on.
His point is that a position contrary to Christianity is unChristian, which is a different thing than saying nobody who holds that position can be a Christian. That doesnít really need a response, at least not like the responses Iíve been deleting.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 25, 2020, 06:09:45 PM
Pastor Preusí denunciation stands. My attempt to respond to it has disappeared.
So carry on.
His point is that a position contrary to Christianity is unChristian, which is a different thing than saying nobody who holds that position can be a Christian. That doesnít really need a response, at least not like the responses Iíve been deleting.


Whose Christianity? Luther's position was deemed so contrary to Christianity, he could be killed on sight. Many of us believe he was right in his position (at least most of them).
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 25, 2020, 07:37:56 PM
Pastor Preusí denunciation stands. My attempt to respond to it has disappeared.
So carry on.
His point is that a position contrary to Christianity is unChristian, which is a different thing than saying nobody who holds that position can be a Christian. That doesnít really need a response, at least not like the responses Iíve been deleting.


Whose Christianity? Luther's position was deemed so contrary to Christianity, he could be killed on sight. Many of us believe he was right in his position (at least most of them).
I can only speak for my own understanding of what is and is not a teaching that is in accord with what God teaches in the Bible.  I certainly understand that other Christians have differing understandings than I do. I need to take responsibility for my beliefs and strive to live according to what I believe God has revealed and to be up front about those beliefs. That will at times mean respectfully disagreeing with others and pointing out why I believe they are wrong.
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Charles Austin on November 25, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
And there is a v-a-s-t difference, Pastor Fienen, from referring to someone and/or their views as "other" than yours, and labeling matters in dispute and the people who hold different views as "unChristian". You do not do this, for which, thanks. But others do
And note that I used the reference to "matters in dispute." If someone denies that Jesus lived, that Jesus was the incarnate Son of God, that the Holy Trinity is an error, or sets aside the faith as described in the Creeds, I have no problem calling that person "unChristian" or to say that this person denies the true God. But on some other matters...
Title: Re: Proud to be an American
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 25, 2020, 11:10:49 PM
And there is a v-a-s-t difference, Pastor Fienen, from referring to someone and/or their views as "other" than yours, and labeling matters in dispute and the people who hold different views as "unChristian". You do not do this, for which, thanks. But others do
And note that I used the reference to "matters in dispute." If someone denies that Jesus lived, that Jesus was the incarnate Son of God, that the Holy Trinity is an error, or sets aside the faith as described in the Creeds, I have no problem calling that person "unChristian" or to say that this person denies the true God. But on some other matters...


The creeds summarize the orthodox Christian faith. Those we do not compromise on.