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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Norman Teigen on November 06, 2020, 11:17:55 AM

Title: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 06, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
The final results of the Election of 2020 may soon be known.  My suggestion is to put to bed the Forum topic on the 2020 Election and move on.  Remember...with malice toward none with charity to all.

There were some definite surprises.  What were some of these surprises?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 06, 2020, 11:34:12 AM
The final results of the Election of 2020 may soon be known.  My suggestion is to put to bed the Forum topic on the 2020 Election and move on.  Remember...with malice toward none with charity to all.

There were some definite surprises.  What were some of these surprises?
The biggest surprise to me was how transparently bad the media reporting on election night itself truly was. I don't think the polling industry or the pundit-class talking heads recover very easily from this. The running gag on conservative website is how much the media is simply the p.r. wing of the DNC, so I thought the pundits might go out of their way not to appear that way. But instead they owned up to and doubled-down on their bias.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 06, 2020, 11:34:44 AM
The anticipated "Blue Wave" never materialized.  House remains in Democratic hands but by a slimmer margin.  Senate remains in Republican hands.  Overall, a tighter race than I thought and a realization that our country may be more evenly and deeply divided than realized.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 06, 2020, 11:37:53 AM
Tentatively, the vote counts are not all in and the litigation is not all resolved, what was surprising to me was how well Republicans did, especially considering Trump's loss. The down ballot races in general went well for Republicans, they gained seats in the House and likely did not lose their small margin in the Senate. No state legislatures flipped from Red to Blue. This was not "The Blue Wave" nor was it a wholesale repudiation of the Republican Party.


Also surprising, no matter who ends up winning, was the gains that Republicans made among minority voters. They still have a long way to go, but they got more minority votes this time around than they did in 2016.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 06, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
You are dreaming or wishing on a star, Pastor Fienen. People much smarter than you and I are now saying that it's over. We can start looking ahead. But the thread on the election must continue for a while.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 06, 2020, 11:54:21 AM
You are dreaming or wishing on a star, Pastor Fienen. People much smarter than you and I are now saying that it's over. We can start looking ahead. But the thread on the election must continue for a while.
I am neither dreaming nor wishing on a star. I do not expect that Trump will somehow eke out a win, but just as a criminal prosecution is not final until the verdict is tendered (and the appeal run out) no mater how certain the result seems, the election is not over until it is over.


In the 2016 election, how long did it take Ms Clinton and Democrats to admit defeat? Were they dreaming or wishing upon a star?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 06, 2020, 11:56:00 AM
See my comment elsewhere, Pastor Fienen. In 2016 we had an array of impeachable offenses, clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election and other matters requiring attention. We do not have those things this year.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on November 06, 2020, 12:01:32 PM
Surprises: the gains among minority demographics among the Republicans.  That is probably the biggest one for me. 

The poor media coverage was not a surprise as much as it was a revelation.  I knew that the media was the PR wing of the DNC but it is now clearer for more people. 

Polling is broken and I don't think it really needs to be fixed.  Polling and the media go hand in glove.  No one trusts the media for fairness.  The media use the polls.  Thus no one trusts the polls.  The pollsters write the questions for those blue zip codes then proceed to ask those questions to people living in red zip codes.  What benefit does it do anybody to answer a pollster?  What benefit does it do anybody to listen to the media say, "The polls say XYZ?"       

Another revelation that I think is coming clearer...The Democratic party is now the party of the rich and elite and powerful.  The "Bigs" are in the Democratic party- Big Tech, Big Media, Big Science, Big Commerce.  The Republican party is the party of the working class, of small business owners, of regular families...all those who go from day to day dealing with onerous taxes and regulations that provide nothing but the promise of further taxation and regulation. 

That's my list. 

Jeremy
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 06, 2020, 12:06:38 PM
See my comment elsewhere, Pastor Fienen. In 2016 we had an array of impeachable offenses, clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election and other matters requiring attention. We do not have those things this year.
Actually, you had none of those things. Those were a stars you were wishing on.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 06, 2020, 12:09:03 PM
Tentatively, the vote counts are not all in and the litigation is not all resolved, what was surprising to me was how well Republicans did, especially considering Trump's loss. The down ballot races in general went well for Republicans, they gained seats in the House and likely did not lose their small margin in the Senate. No state legislatures flipped from Red to Blue. This was not "The Blue Wave" nor was it a wholesale repudiation of the Republican Party.


Also surprising, no matter who ends up winning, was the gains that Republicans made among minority voters. They still have a long way to go, but they got more minority votes this time around than they did in 2016.


Which speaks against the Democrats rigging the elections.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 06, 2020, 12:13:28 PM
The final results of the Election of 2020 may soon be known.  My suggestion is to put to bed the Forum topic on the 2020 Election and move on.  Remember...with malice toward none with charity to all.

There were some definite surprises.  What were some of these surprises?
The biggest surprise to me was how transparently bad the media reporting on election night itself truly was. I don't think the polling industry or the pundit-class talking heads recover very easily from this. The running gag on conservative website is how much the media is simply the p.r. wing of the DNC, so I thought the pundits might go out of their way not to appear that way. But instead they owned up to and doubled-down on their bias.


Unfortunately, presenting the truth often goes against Trump's lies, so it appears that they are against the president. I try to watch CBS news each morning. They interview as many Republican folks as they do Democratic ones. Especially, the Republicans who are responsible for voting in their states, they are not supporting Trump's latest charges. They still have not cast Arizona in the Biden camp, as some other news organizations have.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 06, 2020, 12:22:08 PM
Polling is broken and I don't think it really needs to be fixed.  Polling and the media go hand in glove.  No one trusts the media for fairness.  The media use the polls.  Thus no one trusts the polls.  The pollsters write the questions for those blue zip codes then proceed to ask those questions to people living in red zip codes.  What benefit does it do anybody to answer a pollster?  What benefit does it do anybody to listen to the media say, "The polls say XYZ?"       


The polling predicting nearly everything that's happening. States that counted mail-in ballots first would have Biden ahead and Trump would close the gap as in-person ballots were counted. States that counted mail-in ballots last would be giving a larger percentage of votes to Biden. Populated areas, like Philadelphia, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Atlanta, where the volume of ballots makes getting returns slower, would favor Biden.


There is always a margin of error in polls. It's also true that the polls are not really statistically neutral; the poll results only include the population who are willing to answer the polls questions whether in person or on the phone. It is really a random sample (as I learned about that back in my college psychology courses). I don't know about others, but our phones (home and cells) indicate who is calling. Most unnamed numbers we don't recognize means we don't answer the phone. We're sure that many of them are pollsters. My wife did answer questions to one who came to the door.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 06, 2020, 12:44:59 PM
The big news is that the leftist tilt of the Democrat Party did not reflect a sea change in the opinions of the average person, but of a very few urban radicals.  Trump received the highest percentage of minority voters than any Republican in the last 60 years and I'm waiting with bated breath to hear how the liberals explain that.  My former congressman, John Delaney, tried running for the Dem. nomination as a voice of reason, as did Gov. Bullock of Montana. Delaney pointed to the Dem pledge to "pack the Supreme Court" as something that cost a number of votes--seems ordinary Americans think it's a bad idea.  Babbling about Socialism cost them even more votes. The Dems were not in the mood for reason and now some of them are looking for new jobs.  The Republicans retain control of many of the states and that will affect elections for the next 10 years as redistricting takes off.  Americans have proven once again that we are a center-right nation.  Donald Trump didn't lose because of his policies, he lost because people are fed up with his childish behavior.  There's a good chance that the last 2 years of the Biden (or Harris) administration will face a Congress controlled by the GOP.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 06, 2020, 01:03:13 PM
It's clear from this year's election that a few things really need to be changed when it comes to Election Day. A few suggestions below, suggestions which are fair for all candidates, and might help boost third parties:
These would at once eliminate the vast majority of griping about results and prevent most of the easier avenues for cheating. These changes are all possible, and would streamline what is a truly messy system.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: aletheist on November 06, 2020, 01:20:03 PM
It's clear from this year's election that a few things really need to be changed when it comes to Election Day.
It seems to me that if all states would simply adopt whatever systems and procedures Florida now has in place, things would go much more quickly and smoothly nationwide. They learned their lesson in 2000 and had no issues counting all the votes within a few hours after the polls closed, despite having more cast than any state except California and Texas.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 06, 2020, 01:27:59 PM
It's clear from this year's election that a few things really need to be changed when it comes to Election Day. A few suggestions below, suggestions which are fair for all candidates, and might help boost third parties:
  • Once counting begins, counting continues. In fact, all ballots to be counted in any counting location should be present before the counting begins; the doors are locked, and no one in or out after.
  • Every county in a state should turn in results within a one-hour window per state. This will prevent "finding votes" when felt necessary.
  • Election Day should be a national holiday, to cut off grumbling about access to the polls. Keep them open sunup to sundown, then let the counting begin. It should be very, very clear by sunrise the next day who has won what, with some exceptional cases always cropping up.
  • Absentee and early voting should be rare and for very good reason (military service, and perhaps a couple other exceptions), with a clear chain of custody for each ballot.
  • Everyone who wants to vote in a given year should have to re-register two to four months ahead of time for each election (give plenty of time for this), with a special, photo-included voting ID issued for each election year. This would eliminate arguments concerning how many voters are available in a given area.
These would at once eliminate the vast majority of griping about results and prevent most of the easier avenues for cheating. These changes are all possible, and would streamline what is a truly messy system.

As some folks are saying now, accuracy is more important than speed. If all the ballots can't be legalized and counted in the 24 hour period, then what? Some states haven't counted all the legal ballots on Friday - three days after Election Day.

Let's say a polling place has 60,000 ballots. If it takes 1 second to remove the ballot from the box and unfold it, it would take 16.7 hours to do that to all 60,000 ballots. 5 seconds on each ballot would take 83.3 hours or about 3.5 days.

Of course everything could be computerized. A touch screen in each booth, with the results immediately going to a central server that tabulates the results instantly. Hackers would have a field day with such a system. When our son worked for a slot machine company, he learned that all the slot machines are hard wired to the onsite server that is hardwired to the payout machines. They don't trust wireless connection. Part of his job was programming security in their slot machines. Casino owners get a bit upset when the slots don't work right. So do election officials.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 06, 2020, 01:48:05 PM
Polling is broken and I don't think it really needs to be fixed.  Polling and the media go hand in glove.  No one trusts the media for fairness.  The media use the polls.  Thus no one trusts the polls.  The pollsters write the questions for those blue zip codes then proceed to ask those questions to people living in red zip codes.  What benefit does it do anybody to answer a pollster?  What benefit does it do anybody to listen to the media say, "The polls say XYZ?"       


The polling predicting nearly everything that's happening. States that counted mail-in ballots first would have Biden ahead and Trump would close the gap as in-person ballots were counted. States that counted mail-in ballots last would be giving a larger percentage of votes to Biden. Populated areas, like Philadelphia, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Atlanta, where the volume of ballots makes getting returns slower, would favor Biden.


Sorry, but you're wrong. Polling indicated a "blue wave" with the Democrats taking the Senate, expanding their majority in the House, and a Biden landslide.

None of that happened.

Here is a breakdown on how Trump did vs. the RCP average in different states:

OH: 7.2
WI: 6.2
IA: 6.2
TX: 4.4
FL: 4.3
NV: 1.5
NC: 1.2
PA: 1.1

Notice that only three of those states is within the margin of error. Also note that this was the average, many individual polls were way off. ABC/WashPost poll had Biden ahead by 17 points in Wisconsin; Trump lost by .6%.

Maybe being off by 16 points is your definition of "polling predicting nearly everything that's happening." But I don't think so.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 06, 2020, 01:49:54 PM
See my comment elsewhere, Pastor Fienen. In 2016 we had an array of impeachable offenses, clear evidence of Russian involvement in the election and other matters requiring attention. We do not have those things this year.

Aren't you the guy who argued that LBJ dropped out of his reelection campaign because he felt he had to take responsibility for Vietnam?

Yeah. Let's put this comment right there with that one.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 06, 2020, 03:50:10 PM
I think a major effect of Trump's populism will be that at the local level the GOP will no longer concede urban centers to the Democrats in future elections. It wouldn't surprise me to see big city mayoral and city council races start to become competitive again, and urban congressional districts not being decided in the Dem primary.

Even here in Indiana, in my little corner of it-- a red township in a blue county in a red state-- several Democrats were running unopposed down ballot. But I think those days might be fading. The old urban machines held together by unions, minorities, the Democrat party, community organizers, and in many cases the mafia are already starting to crumble. In the coming years, more and more people aren't going to buy the line that says common sense efforts against voter fraud-- ID laws, registration deadlines, signature checks, etc.-- are really just thinly disguised efforts aimed at racist voter suppression. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 06, 2020, 11:27:54 PM
Aren't you the guy who argued that LBJ dropped out of his reelection campaign because he felt he had to take responsibility for Vietnam?

Yeah. Let's put this comment right there with that one.
LBJ learned how to play the “game“. LBJ had an election stolen from him… Later in life he returned the favor and stole an election from an opponent.  He wasn’t called landslide Lyndon for nothing!
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 07, 2020, 09:05:20 AM
Actually, the Presidential/VicePresidential Election is not over until the Electoral College votes.  8)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 07, 2020, 09:42:05 AM
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

The massive discussion underway about whether this election is being stolen has merit on both sides.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 07, 2020, 10:04:59 AM

The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?”


Actually, there are some Catholics today who, if asked, "Is the Pope Catholic?" will answer "NO!!! Not Francis."     :D ::)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 07, 2020, 10:11:12 AM
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 07, 2020, 10:34:40 AM
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.

Assuming that no huge fraud is proven (very unlikely), the electoral college will vote and Biden will be elected - barring a number of "faithless electors" - and Biden will be sworn in.  At that point Trump is powerless.  Government agencies (including the military) will no longer take orders from him.  Worst case, he is ejected from the White House as a trespasser.  I doubt any of the dire predictions of what might happen will happen (including the trespasser meme).
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 10:41:26 AM
Peter writes:
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

I comment:
What is this, Peter? A grade-C gangster movie by a wannabe Scorsese? Get real. A multi-corrupt Illinois politician doing time for multi-crimes and you think he has a key to something? Have we really gone that low in this modest forum? Are you really so desperate for the word, "corruption," to be thrown around?
Respect for law and for the people involves should suggest that nothing - repeat nothing - about corruption matters unless there is evidence presented by credible people in the proper places.
But I'm a writer, always with book and plot ideas. So let's take it this way.
The politician-con is heard joking in the yard about the Philadelphia election. Another con gets on the phone to his ex-brother-in-law who is connected to the Trump campaign. And up the ladder it goes.
Two days later, guys in nice suits visit the jailed politician. But he's no fool.
"Whatcha got for me?" he says.
"We could probably get you out of here, maybe right now, maybe in a month or two. If you provide the right information."
"Yeah," says the con, "the right information, I think I got stuff you're gonna think is real right."
The suits lean forward.
"But I'm gonna need a little more," says the con, "You know, maybe some walking-around money, maybe a nice stake for a new life on the outside."
"Could be possible," says a suit. "If your stuff is good."
The con laughs "Oh it's good. But there's only one thing."
"What's that?
"How true do you want it to be? I'll have to give it to you a little ways down on the 'truth scale,' but just tell me how far down I can go."
(And the rest of the dialogue plans how many lies the suits will buy to attack Pennsylvania voting.)
That's how I think this might be handled in real life.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 07, 2020, 10:49:25 AM
Looking ahead once the voting essentially comes to an official close (whenever that will be), and the electoral college officially votes, and Biden is declared the president, it seems that Trump will not concede and will accept a declaration of Biden as president only via a Supreme Court decision.  As interesting and maddening as the election itself was, this next chapter may prove to be equally interesting - and maddening. Although all this is somewhat reminiscent of Florida in 2000, it also sends us into unexplored waters as well.  It will provide another civics lesson in the constitution's fine print that few read and fewer consider.  Although the networks will 'call' the election for Biden very soon (I predict as early as the end of today, but who knows), the next chapter will be recounts (some requested, some automatic), lawsuits in several states, and appeals to the Supreme Court.  The result will probably come out the same - Biden as the next president.  But if we think we were waiting a long time just to have ballots counted, we are in for another protracted wait as the next stage begins.   
Perhaps as following the 2000 election, major election reforms will be enacted before 2024.  Florida’s count was in essence completed before midnight ... either other states need to adopt the Florida model ... or these slow counting states need transparency in demonstrating in the future they are unable to function in timely manner such as Florida has.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 07, 2020, 11:06:06 AM
Peter writes:
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

I comment:
What is this, Peter? A grade-C gangster movie by a wannabe Scorsese? Get real. A multi-corrupt Illinois politician doing time for multi-crimes and you think he has a key to something? Have we really gone that low in this modest forum? Are you really so desperate for the word, "corruption," to be thrown around?
Respect for law and for the people involves should suggest that nothing - repeat nothing - about corruption matters unless there is evidence presented by credible people in the proper places.
But I'm a writer, always with book and plot ideas. So let's take it this way.
The politician-con is heard joking in the yard about the Philadelphia election. Another con gets on the phone to his ex-brother-in-law who is connected to the Trump campaign. And up the ladder it goes.
Two days later, guys in nice suits visit the jailed politician. But he's no fool.
"Whatcha got for me?" he says.
"We could probably get you out of here, maybe right now, maybe in a month or two. If you provide the right information."
"Yeah," says the con, "the right information, I think I got stuff you're gonna think is real right."
The suits lean forward.
"But I'm gonna need a little more," says the con, "You know, maybe some walking-around money, maybe a nice stake for a new life on the outside."
"Could be possible," says a suit. "If your stuff is good."
The con laughs "Oh it's good. But there's only one thing."
"What's that?
"How true do you want it to be? I'll have to give it to you a little ways down on the 'truth scale,' but just tell me how far down I can go."
(And the rest of the dialogue plans how many lies the suits will buy to attack Pennsylvania voting.)
That's how I think this might be handled in real life.
Pretty rich coming from a guy who saw invisible Russian interference in our elections for four years without any credible evidence from any credible people. The DNC bought a lie, planted it, and investigated it relentlessly so that the words "corruption" and "stolen election" would adhere to the 2016 results for president's entire term.

The Illinois ex-governor and ex-con is now in media. He was asked about political corruption. He is part of the national conversation on this. He knows WAY more about it than you. It is still just his opinion, among many floating around out there. But worth considering.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 07, 2020, 11:24:20 AM
It suddenly occurred to me a real tragedy that comes out of the results of the 2020 elections. For the last half decade the entire comedy industry has coasted along on the assurance that all they had to do was mention Trump and their audiences would automatically laugh as though they had just heard the greatest joke. Late night hosts didn't have to put in any work, they had Trump to mock and complain about.


Pity the poor comedians who will now have to work about being funny.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 11:31:03 AM
Everyone is now declaring Biden the victor in Pennsylvania. The 30 electoral votes give him the presidency.
He is now referred to as president-elect.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 11:34:23 AM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 11:45:28 AM
And now we wait to hear what kind of words come from the president-elect and the people around him.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 07, 2020, 11:57:00 AM
So, if that's settled, two questions that need answering:

1. What's the over/under on how long Biden remains in office until they scoot him out for Harris? Will he last a month?

2. Who do we invade first?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 07, 2020, 11:59:38 AM
And now we wait to hear what kind of words come from the president-elect and the people around him.

You mean like Biden's campaign official who tweeted, "The United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House"?

Yep, that's a positive, upbeat statement.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 07, 2020, 12:03:50 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.
But the big contention was not just that the Russians tried to interfere but that Trump was working with them. It's the collusion story that turned out to be bogus and yet the Democrats spent three years hammering him with it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 07, 2020, 12:04:56 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.

That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 12:18:36 PM
Not anymore. I would not even have brought it up.

And jebutler writes:
You mean like Biden's campaign official who tweeted, "The United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House"?
I comment:
That is unfair. The person was responding to a question that asks what if the man in the oval office refuses to leave, which he has implied he will do.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2020, 12:46:22 PM
The former governor of Illinois, who is spent time in prison on corruption charges, so he knows a thing or two about big city machine politics and political shenanigans, was quoted as saying that if the question is whether the Democrats are stealing votes in Philadelphia, his response is, “Is the pope Catholic?” He would know more about it than anyone in this forum, and in his mind it is simply par for the course for old Democrat machines in massive, northern urban centers to do whatever it takes and expect to get away with it.

The massive discussion underway about whether this election is being stolen has merit on both sides.


Thinking there is fraud in the voting and/or counting, and having evidence to support the charge are two quite different things. A friend, who had to deal with the mob in Las Vegas, is certain that no one could be in the construction industry in New York City (as Trump is) without mob connections. She's as much as an expert as your former governor.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
Pretty rich coming from a guy who saw invisible Russian interference in our elections for four years without any credible evidence from any credible people. The DNC bought a lie, planted it, and investigated it relentlessly so that the words "corruption" and "stolen election" would adhere to the 2016 results for president's entire term.


Don't confuse Russian interference in the 2016 election, which has been proven; and Trump and his camp colluding with the Russians to interfere, which has not been proven. 12 Russians have been indicted for meddling in the 2016 election. https://apnews.com/article/1ddb174446a34785becd670275fedcbf

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2020, 12:55:53 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.

That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.


There's plenty of evidence that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections. It is something. Much was done in 2020 to try and curtail meddling in our elections by foreign governments.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 07, 2020, 01:37:31 PM
I suspect that Republicans are already planning for the midterm elections.  They may have lost the presidency, but historically they stand to gain in the House in two years, building on gains from this election.  Of course Biden has a chance to show that he is not strictly partisan and inspire folks from both sides.  The next few months will be telling....
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 07, 2020, 02:47:00 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.

That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.

There's plenty of evidence that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections. It is something. Much was done in 2020 to try and curtail meddling in our elections by foreign governments.

To repeat with emphasis:
That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 07, 2020, 02:47:56 PM
It's not over yet.  It looks like the next few months will be interesting.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/statement-from-president-donald-j.-trump/
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2020, 04:50:33 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.

That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.

There's plenty of evidence that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections. It is something. Much was done in 2020 to try and curtail meddling in our elections by foreign governments.

To repeat with emphasis:
That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.


Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 07, 2020, 05:05:27 PM

Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?
Sure or well they tried. It is unproven at best that they succeeded in changing one electoral vote, or that the election outcome would have been any different if they had done nothing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 07, 2020, 05:13:03 PM
It's not over yet.  It looks like the next few months will be interesting.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/statement-from-president-donald-j.-trump/

It's over. Trump will spend lots of money fighting the result, but its over.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 07, 2020, 05:45:05 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.
That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.
There's plenty of evidence that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections. It is something. Much was done in 2020 to try and curtail meddling in our elections by foreign governments.
To repeat with emphasis:
That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.
Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?
So we've gone from meddling by the Russians to being owned by the Chinese. Sounds like a fair exchange.

"We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." — William Casey (https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/03/the-dangers-of-privatized-intelligence/).
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 07, 2020, 06:09:56 PM
And I repeat, Peter. If anybody’s got the evidence, bring it. Otherwise, this is nothing.
That Russian thing? Yeah it was true, they interfered on behalf of Trump. but that was then, this is now.

That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.

There's plenty of evidence that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections. It is something. Much was done in 2020 to try and curtail meddling in our elections by foreign governments.

To repeat with emphasis:
That Russian thing? If anybody has evidence of collusion, bring it.  Otherwise it is nothing.  But you sure cling to it.


Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?
Why was Trump impeached? What difference did Russia robots buying a small number of Facebook ads, many of them after the fact, make in the final tally. Probably Russia has tried to throw disinformation into all of our elections. It should have been a non-story from day one.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2020, 06:48:04 PM

Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?
Sure or well they tried. It is unproven at best that they succeeded in changing one electoral vote, or that the election outcome would have been any different if they had done nothing.


No way to check that out. We cannot go back and redo the election without the Russian interference.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 06:55:58 PM
It's not over yet.  It looks like the next few months will be interesting.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/statement-from-president-donald-j.-trump/

It's over. Trump will spend lots of money fighting the result, but its over.

I imagine the money will be spent by his campaign, not by Trump himself.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 07:06:21 PM

Why was Trump impeached? What difference did Russia robots buying a small number of Facebook ads, many of them after the fact, make in the final tally. Probably Russia has tried to throw disinformation into all of our elections. It should have been a non-story from day one.

If I remember correctly, the impeachment inquiry and vote was about Trump's questionable dealings with Ukraine, not about Russian interference in the 2016 election. There were some who wanted to include the Russia stuff, but the articles of impeachment themselves mention Russia in only two contexts: (1) reference to "a discredited theory promoted by Russia alleging that Ukraine—rather than Russia—interfered in the 2016 United States Presidential election"; and (2) his threat to withhold "funds that Congress had appropriated on a bipartisan basis for the purpose of providing vital military and security assistance to Ukraine to oppose Russian aggression."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 07, 2020, 07:09:08 PM

Why was Trump impeached? What difference did Russia robots buying a small number of Facebook ads, many of them after the fact, make in the final tally. Probably Russia has tried to throw disinformation into all of our elections. It should have been a non-story from day one.

If I remember correctly, the impeachment inquiry and vote was about Trump's questionable dealings with Ukraine, not about Russian interference in the 2016 election. There were some who wanted to include the Russia stuff, but the articles of impeachment themselves mention Russia in only two contexts: (1) reference to "a discredited theory promoted by Russia alleging that Ukraine—rather than Russia—interfered in the 2016 United States Presidential election"; and (2) his threat to withhold "funds that Congress had appropriated on a bipartisan basis for the purpose of providing vital military and security assistance to Ukraine to oppose Russian aggression."

That's what I recall too. Nothing from the Mueller Report. All about Ukraine.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 07:23:29 PM
Now speculation is ramping up about who might replace Kamala Harris in the Senate from California. The LA Times today suggested the following "short list":
Rep. Karen Bass of Los Angeles
Atty Gen Xavier Becerra of Los Angeles (though raised in Sacramento)
Mayor Robert Garcia of Long Beach
Rep. Barbara Lee of Oakland
Secretary of State Alex Padilla of Los Angeles

There's a second tier, as well, but you likely wouldn't recognize any of those names (I didn't, and I live here). One thing that stands out is that there are no white males on the list. (My personal choice--just to drive you Republicans batty--would be Adam Schiff.  ;D ) The second thing to notice is that it is extremely likely California will be represented by a Southern Californian for the first time since 1992--and, if one of the men is named, the first time there's been a man in the Senate from California since 1993.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Becerra--Latino, already has Washington experience (former Congressman), has already run a statewide campaign.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Keith Falk on November 07, 2020, 07:26:46 PM
Frankly, I think you'd have to be pretty willfully naïve to believe Russia hasn't attempted to interfere with our elections. I'm sure it's been happening for a long while.  Of course, we in the USA are above interfering in the elections and selections of who runs the government in other countries... right?    ;D ;)


And, as others have noted, there is a vast difference between conceding Russia meddled (or attempted to) and saying President Trump (or anyone else) colluded with Russians.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Coach-Rev on November 07, 2020, 07:26:54 PM
I suspect that Republicans are already planning for the midterm elections.  They may have lost the presidency, but historically they stand to gain in the House in two years, building on gains from this election.  Of course Biden has a chance to show that he is not strictly partisan and inspire folks from both sides.  The next few months will be telling....

considering he first said he was going to work even harder for those who did NOT vote for him (last wednesday's speech), and then on Thursday claimed to have a mandate to enact a radical left agenda, I'm not holding my breath on him not being partisan.  In fact, we've even got a betting pool on when pelosi has him declared incompetent and gets Kamala in as POTUS.

FWIW, close, contested elections in 7 states does not a mandate make, any more than George W had after the 2000 election.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
I suspect that Republicans are already planning for the midterm elections.  They may have lost the presidency, but historically they stand to gain in the House in two years, building on gains from this election.  Of course Biden has a chance to show that he is not strictly partisan and inspire folks from both sides.  The next few months will be telling....

considering he first said he was going to work even harder for those who did NOT vote for him (last wednesday's speech), and then on Thursday claimed to have a mandate to enact a radical left agenda, I'm not holding my breath on him not being partisan.  In fact, we've even got a betting pool on when pelosi has him declared incompetent and gets Kamala in as POTUS.

FWIW, close, contested elections in 7 states does not a mandate make, any more than George W had after the 2000 election.

Could you please provide a link for his statement that his mandate is "to enact a radical left agenda"?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: wmattsfield on November 07, 2020, 08:07:50 PM
I suspect that Republicans are already planning for the midterm elections.  They may have lost the presidency, but historically they stand to gain in the House in two years, building on gains from this election.  Of course Biden has a chance to show that he is not strictly partisan and inspire folks from both sides.  The next few months will be telling....

considering he first said he was going to work even harder for those who did NOT vote for him (last wednesday's speech), and then on Thursday claimed to have a mandate to enact a radical left agenda, I'm not holding my breath on him not being partisan.  In fact, we've even got a betting pool on when pelosi has him declared incompetent and gets Kamala in as POTUS.

FWIW, close, contested elections in 7 states does not a mandate make, any more than George W had after the 2000 election.

Could you please provide a link for his statement that his mandate is "to enact a radical left agenda"?


Some of that depends on what he means by action on COVID, the economy, climate change and systematic racism. Based on what he said in the debate, I doubt he's going to go middle-of-the-road on these things. Still, if things stand as they are, he won and elections have consequences. And there's a good chance he will even gave the Senate, so this of us who disagree with his policies will have no say for at least two years. 'Bringing the country together," almost certainly means "by agreeing to leftist policies." And there's little reason it shouldn't.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524912-biden-claims-a-mandate-to-govern-calls-for-end-to-partisan-warfare%3famp
Quote
"They've given us a mandate for action on COVID, the economy, on climate change and systemic racism. They made it clear they want the country to come together not continue to pull apart."

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) also said this week that Democrats have been given a "strong mandate to lead," though many in her party were deeply disappointed by their performance in down-ballot races on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 08:15:49 PM
In fact, we've even got a betting pool on when pelosi has him declared incompetent and gets Kamala in as POTUS.


Jeff, I find a tasteless statement like that to be not only uncharitable in the extreme, but profoundly ignorant of how the 25th amendment works. I hope you are joking, but frankly, it isn't funny.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 08:52:08 PM
Richard, I think you should delete that statement About getting Biden declared incompetent. We don’t want bounce-off-the-wall things like that turning up somewhere in the metadata, do we?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 08:58:24 PM
Biden speech tonight closed with the line from the hymn “and he will raise you up on Eagles wings.”
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 09:09:36 PM
And it looks like everybody in the crowd was wearing a mask and the Biden and Harris family, when they were on the stage, were all wearing masks.
No nastiness in the speech, all about the future. All about the kind of country we want to be. All about the best things about us.
Extra cheers in the minority communities.
He has said he will re-enter the Paris environmental agreement and re-join the WHO on his first day in office.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 07, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Nope. Don't cling to Trump colluding with the Russians. Can you admit that the Russians meddled in the 2016 elections?

Sure.  No problem.  But the story that was clung to by much of the left (including some posters here) was that Trump had colluded with the Russians on meddling in the 2016 elections.  That's the piece that's no one has ever come close to having proof for.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 09:35:43 PM
 James S. Rustad
But the story that was clung to by much of the left (including some posters here) was that Trump had colluded with the Russians on meddling in the 2016 elections.  That's the piece that's no one has ever come close to having proof for.
Me:
No. Yes. Maybe. It is time to look ahead. Wallowing in the past is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2020, 10:19:22 PM
I've removed about a dozen posts that were irrational rants by James, and people urging him to stop. James, I will continue to do that, even though I have plenty of better things to do. This is a warning that your hysteria will no longer be tolerated. You are about one post away from being banned.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 07, 2020, 11:13:06 PM
James S. Rustad
But the story that was clung to by much of the left (including some posters here) was that Trump had colluded with the Russians on meddling in the 2016 elections.  That's the piece that's no one has ever come close to having proof for.
Me:
No. Yes. Maybe. It is time to look ahead. Wallowing in the past is not a good idea.

Indeed.  Republicans are about to hold their majority in the Senate, they are almost certain to take the House in 2 years, and they have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court, a majority that might extend further if Steven Breyer decides to do as Ruth Bader Ginsberg did and delay his retirement until what he hopes is Biden's second term.

Oh, who are we kidding, Biden isn't going to be in a second term.  He might not finish his first term.  And since it's been established that COVID-19 is the president's fault, and since Biden's economic plan is going to slow recovery, we could be looking at a veritable lock on the Court for a generation or more if a Republican wins the White House in 2024.  I doubt Breyer will chance it though.  Because if a Republican takes the White House in 4 years, Clarence Thomas will likely retire, cementing a conservative majority on the Court for the first time in my lifetime.  I know right now you're probably not seeing a path to a Republican victory in 2024.  I'd wager Democrats didn't see one in 1976 either, and whatever one thinks of Donald Trump, he is a far, far better president than Richard Nixon.  Still, Reagan won and the rest is history.  And if you put Harris at the top of the ticket?  I mean, there are few people in politics more unlikeable than she is.  Donald Trump was one of them, but there aren't a lot left with him out of the way.

Anyway, add to that the number of state houses Republicans still control, and keeping in mind it is redistricting time for the next 10 years, and I feel great about the future. Tuesday was a phenomenally good day for people like me.  Biden winning is, in my estimation, a great blessing.  I anticipate a realignment I've been envisioning for a while now is imminent, where the Republican party focuses on what is essentially Catholic social policy (though they won't call it by that name). Where they realize that the vacuum created by smug college educated suburban and urban liberals has left the working class unrepresented, and more, that Republican values of family and religious freedom and love of country and so forth align perfectly with working class people of all races and backgrounds.  If that happens, I will be proud to vote for Republicans again.  In fact, about the only way for Republicans to ruin this for me is to re-nominate Trump in 4 years, or worse, one of his kids.  Since party faithful tend to blame losers for losing, I don't see that happening.  There's a reason Mrs. Clinton didn't run again in 2020.

On your side, by contrast, nearly every leftist I know is furious that Biden was the best you all had to offer.  They voted for him because they hate Trump worse, but not many are happy about it.  Oh, the pure partisans are -- people who would vote Democrat no matter who they put up.  But I know a lot more people who voted for Biden that view it much as I viewed my ill considered vote for George W. Bush in 2000.  Something they felt they had to do, but aren't particularly proud of.  And when Democrats lose the House in 2022 -- which again is all but inevitable -- the infighting in that party will be something to behold.  Having cost moderates their seats, the hard left will blame them anyway.  It's already happening.  Without Trump at the top of the ticket, they will be far less motivated to vote for what a pacifist anarchist friend refers to as the "Jim Crow Joe and Copmala ticket."  Really, all the Republicans need to do in order to win the White House in 4 years is nominate a half reasonable person who can speak respectfully to voters Trump was winning over already, and bring back voters who left because of his demeanor and immorality. 

It will be fun watching your side revert to the anti-Trump Resistance(TM) playbook and call that person a racist and a puppet of Vladimir Putin too.  Because it will look as stale and tired as it actually will be.

So yeah, the future is bright!  I've rarely felt more optimistic than I do right now.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 11:24:42 PM
Here is the closing of President-Elect Biden's speech tonight, and the citation of one of our best hymns. The hymn is by Michael Joncas, a Roman Catholic priest. Another Joncas, related, I am sure, but I do not remember how, is an ELCA pastor.
The closing of the speech
   In the last days of the campaign, I’ve been thinking about a hymn that means a lot to me and to my family, particularly my deceased son, Beau. It captures the faith that sustains me and which I believe sustains America.
   And I hope it can provide some comfort and solace to the more than 230,000 families who have lost a loved one to this terrible virus this year. My heart goes out to each and every one of you. Hopefully this hymn gives you solace as well.
   “And He will raise you up on eagle’s wings,
   Bear you on the breath of dawn,
   Make you to shine like the sun,
   And hold you in the palm of His Hand.”
   And now, together — on eagle’s wings — we embark on the work that God and history have called upon us to do.
   With full hearts and steady hands, with faith in America and in each other, with a love of country — and a thirst for justice — let us be the nation that we know we can be.
A nation united.
A nation strengthened.
A nation healed.
The United States of America.
God bless you.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 07, 2020, 11:27:07 PM
Presumptive President Elect Biden has expressed his intention to govern for all of America, not just for Democrats, not just for Blue states, to reach across the aisle and work with both Republicans and Democrats in a bipartisan manner. He presumably won the election, he won the chance to be taken at his word until and unless his word proves false. Bur we need to begin from a position that that is his intention.


This would mean considering the ideas and proposals from both Republicans and Democrats, listening and meeting the concerns of both Republicans and Democrats, and crafting policy that reflects the ideas and concerns from both sides of the aisle. To govern as "we won the election, you can just lump it" will not bring peace and unity to the country. Can Biden/Harris do this? Time will tell, but we all need to give them the chance to try.


To be really effective, Congress from both sides of the aisle will need to go along in bipartisanship. This means really listening to and seriously considering the proposals and concerns from both Rs and Ds. Policy and legislation needs to be crafted recognizing the value of both sides of the aisle. This was never seriously tried after the 2016 election. Perhaps Republicans and Democrats can be more responsible this time around. Effective governance is the arena of Realpolitik not ideological purity.


A good place to start that does not need to wait for Biden"s inauguration would be for Congress to set aside partisan bickering and honestly work together to craft a truly bipartisan COVID relief package. Such a package would not fully satisfy partsans of either party, nor contain all the Christmas tree ornaments they would wish to gift themselves, but would be a great blessing to the country and a start on a new era of bipartisanship.


Possible? We can only hope, but will it be even tried? It takes two to tango, but only one to break up the dance.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2020, 11:56:27 PM
The impeachment is over. The Trump presidency is about to be over. We need to look forward.
Even the malice that some of us feel concerning Trump doesn’t matter here and now.
I for one, am glad I will not have to consider Trump’s various inadequacies for very much longer. That is a relief.
We can have a discussion about strengthening the institutions of our society rather than destroying them.
It is much more satisfying to consider the possibilities that lie ahead, possibilities that did not exist under the Trump president.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: GalRevRedux on November 08, 2020, 06:32:39 AM
 https://amgreatness.com/2020/11/07/went-to-bed-in-america-woke-up-in-a-banana-republic/ (https://amgreatness.com/2020/11/07/went-to-bed-in-america-woke-up-in-a-banana-republic/)

I am in despair.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 08, 2020, 06:44:31 AM
The impeachment is over. The Trump presidency is about to be over. We need to look forward.
Even the malice that some of us feel concerning Trump doesn’t matter here and now.
I for one, am glad I will not have to consider Trump’s various inadequacies for very much longer. That is a relief.
We can have a discussion about strengthening the institutions of our society rather than destroying them.
It is much more satisfying to consider the possibilities that lie ahead, possibilities that did not exist under the Trump president.

The institutions of our society, specifically the media and bureaucracy, destroyed themselves. Often with your active apologia, and even cheerleading.

If you want to strengthen them, stop making excuses for their awful behavior and hold them accountable.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 07:06:56 AM
Are you in despair that such a crud-pile of whining, divisive screaming of unsubstantiated allegations should be poisoning the atmosphere?
Is there credible evidence of massive voter fraud or not? Is the mind behind this piece capable of understanding the explanations of how and why the tally developed? I’m not good with such things, but I can understand it.
Does this person believe that - quickly and quietly overnight - the Democrats took control over vote counting in seven states and faked the results? Then why didn’t they mess with the races for the Senate and the House?
I ask again. Are we looking for a cooperative future or not?
(I might ask where we have had to worry about “banana republic” traits in recent years, but that would not help us look at the future in a peaceful, cooperative way.)

David Garner:
The institutions of our society, specifically the media and bureaucracy, destroyed themselves. Often with your active apologia, and even cheerleading. If you want to strengthen them, stop making excuses for their awful behavior and hold them accountable.
Me:
Cannot deal with such vague, broad declarations. The “bureaucracy” of government has been, for four years, in the hands of the party that lost the presidency (but remains strong elsewhere). Dominant media include Fox News and Trump-lovers all over social networks. (I have not been swishing pom poms and shouting for them.) Other “institutions”? Science? Medicine? Education? Retail stores? Religion? Philanthropy? Sports? The arts? Hardly “destroyed,” for which we thank God and the resilience and good will of the American people.
This is Proof that we should be able to work together for a better future..


Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 08, 2020, 08:03:05 AM
"Let’s remember that tens of millions of people voted for the status quo, even when it meant supporting lies, hate, chaos, and division," [Michelle Obama] wrote. "We’ve got a lot of work to do to reach out to these folks in the years ahead and connect with them on what unites us."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michelle-obama-biden-harris-president-congratulations-message

Guess they're going to correct us, re-educate us. You know, from...

“'They have been on-air saying this: These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about 'E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,'' [Malcolm Nance, an MSNBC contributor and former US Navy senior chief petty officer] said.

'You think that’s every Trump voter?' Maher pushed back, Dailymail.com reported.

Nance doubled down. 'They voted for this consciously, knowing what Donald Trump stood for, for the last four years,' he said. 'They know him.'

'It’s almost a level of fanaticism that I’ve only seen in cult groups and Middle East terrorist groups.'

In another segment, Nance referred to the caravans of Trump supporters seen on highways in the run-up to the election as 'Vanilla ISIS.'"

https://nypost.com/2020/11/07/bill-maher-slams-panelist-who-calls-all-trump-voters-racists/

And of course there's still the good ole Russia card.

"'Trump should concede, but I think the Republican Party has a responsibility here,' Clyburn told CNN's "State of the Union." 'This country is bigger than any one person. This democracy is teetering. ... We are in a very dire set of consequences here, and we had better get hold of ourselves and this country and stop catering to whims of one person.'

Clyburn seemed to allege that Trump is a puppet of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

'We have been the envy of the world, but we have also received a lot of disdain from places around the world,' Clyburn said. 'So I don't understand how the Republicans can allow Putin to dictate the fortunes of this country and that is what is going on here.'"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/james-clyburn-joe-biden-trump-concede

IOW, "So long as you racist fools change and see it our way, we might get along. "
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 08, 2020, 08:11:40 AM
To quote the hippy dippy crowd, give peace a chance. Massive voter fraud is being investigated and I'm confident the evidence will be found if it is there. To make peace and unity to work, suspicion and hostility from both sides needs to be toned down. Not every Democratic proposals is a prelude to socialism, nor is strengthening the social safety net. Nor are all Republicans racist homophobes and respect for the religious freedom of those who haven't bought tickets on the progressive bus isn't merely an excuse for bigotry. Letting the past be past needs to come from both sides of the aisle. While it is credible that this election was a repudiation of Trump it was not a massive repudiation of Republicans or conservatism. In general its looking like except for the top, Republicans came out a bit ahead. Biden and the Democrats did not receive a mandate to crush or run roughshod over Republicans. If in their hubris they try, their calls for bringing the country together will prove to be a lie, and in the long run they'll lose.


Meanwhile it's in the Republicans' best interest to try to work with the Democrats fairly representing their ideas and policy proposals but not playing the Democratic obstruct and resist game from the last four years.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 08, 2020, 08:15:11 AM
"Let’s remember that tens of millions of people voted for the status quo, even when it meant supporting lies, hate, chaos, and division," [Michelle Obama] wrote. "We’ve got a lot of work to do to reach out to these folks in the years ahead and connect with them on what unites us."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michelle-obama-biden-harris-president-congratulations-message (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michelle-obama-biden-harris-president-congratulations-message)

Guess they're going to correct us. You know, from...

“'They have been on-air saying this: These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about 'E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,'' [Malcolm Nance, an MSNBC contributor and former US Navy senior chief petty officer] said.

'You think that’s every Trump voter?' Maher pushed back, Dailymail.com reported.

Nance doubled down. 'They voted for this consciously, knowing what Donald Trump stood for, for the last four years,' he said. 'They know him.'

'It’s almost a level of fanaticism that I’ve only seen in cult groups and Middle East terrorist groups.'

In another segment, Nance referred to the caravans of Trump supporters seen on highways in the run-up to the election as 'Vanilla ISIS.'"

https://nypost.com/2020/11/07/bill-maher-slams-panelist-who-calls-all-trump-voters-racists/ (https://nypost.com/2020/11/07/bill-maher-slams-panelist-who-calls-all-trump-voters-racists/)

IOW, "So long as you racist fools change and see it our way, we might get along. "
There will be those on the left who won't let their narrow mindedness and hatred die.  As well as those on the right. I hope and pray that cooler and more reasonable heads on both sides can prevail.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Coach-Rev on November 08, 2020, 08:22:29 AM
In fact, we've even got a betting pool on when pelosi has him declared incompetent and gets Kamala in as POTUS.


Jeff, I find a tasteless statement like that to be not only uncharitable in the extreme, but profoundly ignorant of how the 25th amendment works. I hope you are joking, but frankly, it isn't funny.

I"m sorry you find it tasteless and uncharitable.  I do not believe it to be so, but rather a statement of reality.  If I'm wrong, then I guess I can add that to the list of sins I must confess on judgement day.  Are we actually betting?  No.  But honestly, I find this whole election a travesty, and considering Nancy threatened to use it on Trump, many, MANY of us saw it as a warm up for Biden and his clear state of mental confusion. 

Like Donna, this article summarizes why I lose trust in more and more institutions almost daily:  https://amgreatness.com/2020/11/07/went-to-bed-in-america-woke-up-in-a-banana-republic/
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 08:27:04 AM
I think Biden will likely avoid really antagonizing the senate. He’ll seek to visibly undo some of the mostly symbolic things Trump did. But he’ll tread lightly and talk cooperation. He’s been working with some of these guys since I was in kindergarten. He’s as vanilla and establishment as it gets. Harris is a pure ladder-climber. She’ll claim to be for whatever the issue of the day happens to be. But she is neither likable nor particularly effective as a leader. Assuming the GOP holds the senate, I don’t expect much to change right away in 2021. Not like 2017, when Trump went full throttle trying to shake things up.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 08, 2020, 08:28:51 AM
Biden is the president-elect.  As Republicans we need to support him as our president.  The rhetoric that went around four years ago that "he's not my president" is something we should rise above this time.  But I would hope, if healing and unity is truly desired from Biden and those who support him, that continued negative talk of Trump would cease.  As long as the supposed shortcomings, faults and failures of Trump are brought out over and over, healing and unity will not happen.  He was not perfect, we get that.  He could be bombastic and coarse. We understand.  He was at the center of more than a little divisiveness. We saw that.  But that is past.  If those who support Biden continue to accuse and condemn Trump for his alleged sins, his supporters and those who voted for him - for whatever reason - will remain alienated and isolated from the healing and unity Biden calls for. 

I also hope that the leaders of the respective parties can restart an effort to work together.  Even as of a couple of day ago we continue to see the 'dig in the heels' approach that is a non-starter.  Nancy Pelosi, in commenting on the aid package proposed by Mitch McConnell and the Republicans, said that the Republican's proposed bill, which is narrower in scope than the one proposed by Democrats, "doesn’t appeal to me at all."  Well, that's a way to start the discussion. 

Biden may well be willing to reach across the aisle and work with those on the other side.  But I think he needs to sit down with Pelosi and come out showing a united front of Democratic cooperation and good faith.  Yes, the Republicans should do the same.  But if he's serious about unity and healing it starts at his desk.  As another Democratic president noted by a sign on his desk: "The buck stops here." 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 08, 2020, 08:33:55 AM
Everyone is now declaring Biden the victor in Pennsylvania. The 30 electoral votes give him the presidency.
He is now referred to as president-elect.

Yes, everyone will now refer to him as "president-elect".
Legally, constitutionally, he is not President-Elect until the Electoral College votes him into office.
Your clever lower case use for president-elect is fitting.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 08, 2020, 08:42:29 AM
I realize that some feel Trump is just being stubborn about wanting to proceed with legal actions to guarantee the election was legitimate.  I don't know what to think. My wife was a poll worker at one, small, rural election site, so I'm certainly not an expert on what happened elsewhere.  That said, if this is still a democracy we have the freedom and right to pursue all avenues of redress in the legal system, including all the way to the Supreme Court, if they consent to hear the case. My feeling is that it should run its course. Some may feel it is baseless.  It may be and then it will be done.  But the right to pursue it is there.  Let it be. This also is part of bringing closure.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 08, 2020, 11:14:01 AM
Are you in despair that such a crud-pile of whining, divisive screaming of unsubstantiated allegations should be poisoning the atmosphere?
Is there credible evidence of massive voter fraud or not? Is the mind behind this piece capable of understanding the explanations of how and why the tally developed? I’m not good with such things, but I can understand it.
Does this person believe that - quickly and quietly overnight - the Democrats took control over vote counting in seven states and faked the results? Then why didn’t they mess with the races for the Senate and the House?
I ask again. Are we looking for a cooperative future or not?
(I might ask where we have had to worry about “banana republic” traits in recent years, but that would not help us look at the future in a peaceful, cooperative way.)

Biden may want to be a unity president, but he will not be able to be one if his supporters keep taking shots at the other side (even if they use your method of taking the shot without taking the shot).  Please rise above this Charles.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 08, 2020, 11:33:18 AM
Yes, everyone will now refer to him as "president-elect".
Legally, constitutionally, he is not President-Elect until the Electoral College votes him into office.
Your clever lower case use for president-elect is fitting.
In addition to being pleasingly cleaver, it is a proper recognition that NO legal authorities have declared a winner ... in fact ... most likely, no vote totals are final yet.

As one who has worked for an election division, our county vote totals were not final until close of business the Monday following a Tuesday election.

Apparently the biased MSM is usurping the the power of the civil election authorities and Biden is following like an obedient minion.


Biden may want to be a unity president, but he will not be able to be one if his supporters keep taking shots at the other side (even if they use your method of taking the shot without taking the shot).  Please rise above this Charles.
Thank you for pointing this out ... some of the most vociferously repugnant comments made in 2016 were made by those who today are piously calling for unity and cooperation.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 11:56:11 AM
James S. Rustad writes:
Biden may want to be a unity president, but he will not be able to be one if his supporters keep taking shots at the other side (even if they use your method of taking the shot without taking the shot).  Please rise above this Charles.

I comment:
OK. Will try.
But many things must be "set aside" and not used as "shots."
Nonsense about Hilary's emails or Bill's sexual misdeeds.
Bitterness over the impeachment (which your side won).
Things said by relatively minor players among the Democrats.
Overstated and inaccurate descriptions of the street demonstrations this past summer.
Biden's son's business.
Something Biden may have done or said years or even decades ago.
Aspects alleged to be part of the Vice President-Elect's sexual life.
Self-created demons of "antifa" or "BLM" or "The Green New Deal" assaulting our cities and suburbs.
Certain language about abortion or gun control.
What the Obama administration may have done with refugee children.
Overstated fears about "religious freedom."
And unless evidence is presented to courts and adjudicated, blather about election fraud.
And the list could probably go on.
But I will try.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 08, 2020, 11:58:37 AM
I realize that some feel Trump is just being stubborn about wanting to proceed with legal actions to guarantee the election was legitimate.  I don't know what to think. My wife was a poll worker at one, small, rural election site, so I'm certainly not an expert on what happened elsewhere.  That said, if this is still a democracy we have the freedom and right to pursue all avenues of redress in the legal system, including all the way to the Supreme Court, if they consent to hear the case. My feeling is that it should run its course. Some may feel it is baseless.  It may be and then it will be done.  But the right to pursue it is there.  Let it be. This also is part of bringing closure.
Anything and everything should now and before the next election to guarantee that the faith and confidence in the voting process is restored.

Florida had election results before midnight on Tuesday.  That Pennsylvania took so long indicates, flawed planning, failure to execute a plan, antiquated election law, or simply a desire commit fraud

Landslide Lyndon and the Chicago machine’s mantra ‘Vote Early, Vote Often” are prime examples of election fraud of election fraud in the US.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 12:05:45 PM
Someone writes:
Anything and everything should now and before the next election to guarantee that the faith and confidence in the voting process is restored.
I muse:
And who is it that is sowing, through lies and unproven allegations, mistrust of our system? Not Democrats.

Julio again:
Florida had election results before midnight on Tuesday.  That Pennsylvania took so long indicates, flawed planning, failure to execute a plan, antiquated election law, or simply a desire commit fraud
Me:
No, it does not. It indicates the care by which votes were tabulated, recorded and counted. Some states have difficult processes to assure that everything is done correctly. This takes time. To say it is a "desire to commit fraud" is baseless.

Julio again:
Landslide Lyndon and the Chicago machine’s mantra ‘Vote Early, Vote Often” are prime examples of election fraud of election fraud in the US.
Me again:
In Chicago in the 1930s and maybe in Texas a few decades later (the Texas allegations never adjudicated.) So these are not "prime examples" of anything in today's USA. If anything the way we vote today makes it extremely - repeat extremely - difficult to commit fraud.
These fanciful whoops about election fraud this past week are wrong and do not help our healing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 08, 2020, 12:15:00 PM
We have so much to work through in this coming year that, I, for one, don't have a whole lot of interest in rehashing the past.  If Biden's son is being investigated by the FBI, I will just have to trust that those in charge will do their job and process it properly.  I don't have any power over that.  Bill and Hilary are old news. And as I stated before, it would be good for Democrats to let the past with Trump go and move on.  I know that he will remain in the news for a while, especially with promised lawsuits beginning tomorrow.  But if everyone who voted for Biden is so relieved and overjoyed to have Trump defeated, the least they can do is be a little bit kind by not using that opportunity to drag a yet sitting president through the mud one more time. 

If there are concerns about the election system, then by all means investigate.  We owe it to the American public to always guarantee a secure and trusted system.  But while that is being investigated, I suspect that the transition of power from one president to the other will take place. Whether we agree or not we will soon have a duly sworn in leader of the executive branch.  His first moves will be watched carefully.  The pandemic remains a concern.  I am interested to see what he has planned.  I hope it will be completely transparent and will take in consideration others who may have opposing views.  Again, unity and healing.  It starts with his first executive order. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 08, 2020, 12:29:49 PM
<deleted some stuff>
Bitterness over the impeachment (which your side won).
As I've pointed out more than once, I am not a Republican nor a Trump supporter.  I did not vote for Trump in 2016.  I did vote for Trump in 2020, but only because Biden appeared worse on the issues I cared about.  Given Trump's recent behavior, I wish I had not.

<deleted some more stuff>
But I will try.

I will also.  I hope that we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 08, 2020, 12:43:54 PM
In 1960 there was a lot of concern that the Illinois election was crooked (surprise, surprise!).  Richard Nixon was told he should contest it but he said it would harm the country to do so.  It is time for President Trump to think of the nation rather than himself.  It's time for him to be presidential.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 08, 2020, 12:47:30 PM
Someone Julio writes:
Anything and everything should now and before the next election to guarantee that the faith and confidence in the voting process is restored.

I muse: And who is it that is sowing, through lies and unproven allegations, mistrust of our system? Not Democrats.
Surely you jest… Why would Democrats question fraud that benefits them?

You fail to acknowledge the pain expressed by many ... most notably RevGalRedux (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492427#msg492427)

It’s hard to believe your calls for unity when everyone who disagrees with you is branded a liar or worse.
Quote

Julio again:
Florida had election results before midnight on Tuesday.  That Pennsylvania took so long indicates, flawed planning, failure to execute a plan, antiquated election law, or simply a desire commit fraud
Me:
No, it does not. It indicates the care by which votes were tabulated, recorded and counted. Some states have difficult processes to assure that everything is done correctly. This takes time. To say it is a "desire to commit fraud" is baseless.
You should welcome a full investigation ... if it finds nothing .. you can criticize me and others ... your hue and cry now rings of putrid fear that there is a problem.

By the way ... Unless are you questioning Florida’s results because they were timely … Or because they didn’t go your way.. Welcome any efforts to speed up the process.[/quote]
Quote

Julio again:
Landslide Lyndon and the Chicago machine’s mantra ‘Vote Early, Vote Often” are prime examples of election fraud of election fraud in the US.
Me again:
In Chicago in the 1930s and maybe in Texas a few decades later (the Texas allegations never adjudicated.) So these are not "prime examples" of anything in today's USA. If anything the way we vote today makes it extremely - repeat extremely - difficult to commit fraud.
These fanciful whoops about election fraud this past week are wrong and do not help our healing.

Perhaps you should read historian writings on the life of President Lyndon B. Johnson.  Not only did he steal an election… But he had an earlier election stolen from him.

Sticking your head in the sand and not reading historical biographies does not negate their truth!
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 08, 2020, 01:51:40 PM
Ross Douthat has an interesting post-mortem.  The gist of it is that at its best, Trumpism represented a potential multiethnic coalition more focused on blue collar workers, social conservatism, and economic populism than previous Republican leaders, a coalition that is now just shy of a majority.  The big question is whether it could be a majority absent Trump's abrasive personality, or whether it would be a smaller minority without Trump's personal appeal to some segments of the coalition:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/opinion/sunday/is-there-a-trumpism-after-trump.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 01:57:35 PM
So will the demographics of the Trump or No-Trump voters have any long-term consequences?
And demographics may be another form of the supposedly dread "identity politics." Blue Collar worker. White collar worker. College or Grad School. High School Graduate. Income over $100,000. Income under $60,000. Hunter/Sports Fan. Artist/Symphony supporter.
None of this should matter. We all need clean air. Good water. A stable, safe society.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 08, 2020, 02:28:57 PM
So will the demographics of the Trump or No-Trump voters have any long-term consequences?
And demographics may be another form of the supposedly dread "identity politics." Blue Collar worker. White collar worker. College or Grad School. High School Graduate. Income over $100,000. Income under $60,000. Hunter/Sports Fan. Artist/Symphony supporter.
None of this should matter. We all need clean air. Good water. A stable, safe society.

That may be true, in a general sense.  However, certain 'demographics' have different perceived needs that do need to be addressed.  Policies impact different groups in different ways and at different levels. Gun control policies, for example, mean something different to the person from the city who simply wants 'guns off the street,' as opposed to the recreational hunter in the rural areas. Income levels also play a role since some receive their income from investments, others from an hourly wage.  Taxation impacts each at a different level. Even the definition of what a "stable, safe society" differs from one group to the next, although there are certainly points of convergence (e.g. no one wants sewage spilling into the local river or stream, and all want air that is breathable, etc.).
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 06:22:59 PM
The New York Times today has a long story about how smooth the election went in spite of the dire warnings about disruptions, long lines, and other things that might’ve messed things up. More than 700,000 people around the country were either volunteered or been recruited to serve as poll workers, handling the account and the security of the ballots. And tens of thousands of others had already been registered as poll workers, observers at  the polls or in another positions that would handle  election day procedures.
Even the pandemic did not result in as many long lines as  feared. And the experience this past week will enable the next round of voting to go even smoother. I suspect that the “Postal Service play“ that could’ve affected ballots getting to the proper place at the proper time won’t happen again.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 06:25:00 PM
Also looking ahead:
I got to know the WHO during my years in Geneva and following and I learned of the good work it is doing all over the world. It is very good that we will be back in as a full member. By the way, the Lutheran World Federation cooperates with the WHO in some healthcare projects in difficult parts of the world.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Weedon on November 08, 2020, 06:25:33 PM
I was a tad skeptical about the voting by mail, I admit. But both my wife and I did it and we loved it! I think that’s what we’ll do from now forward, given the choice.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 06:30:26 PM
I was a tad skeptical about the voting by mail, I admit. But both my wife and I did it and we loved it! I think that’s what we’ll do from now forward, given the choice.
Not me. I actually enjoy voting. It has a unique atmosphere to it. I kind of like Christmas shopping in crowds, too, even though I hate shopping, can't stand waiting in lines, and generally avoid crowds. You feel like you're part of something larger. Of course, if most people vote by mail and most people shop online, then the whole thing falls apart. But for now, I plan to vote in person on election day.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Weedon on November 08, 2020, 06:45:02 PM
Ha! And since Amazon I’ve not gone Christmas shopping in years other than on my iPad!
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 08, 2020, 06:48:03 PM
Also looking ahead:
I got to know the WHO during my years in Geneva and following and I learned of the good work it is doing all over the world. It is very good that we will be back in as a full member. By the way, the Lutheran World Federation cooperates with the WHO in some healthcare projects in difficult parts of the world.
I'm sure that the WHO has been a great organization and has done great things. However, there was substantial evidence that in this coronavirus pandemic they were more subservient to the will of the Chinese government than to the prompt assistance in understanding and containing the pandemic. That does not assist fulfilling the WHO mission and mandate and needs to be corrected.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 08, 2020, 06:53:39 PM
I was a tad skeptical about the voting by mail, I admit. But both my wife and I did it and we loved it! I think that’s what we’ll do from now forward, given the choice.
Not me. I actually enjoy voting. It has a unique atmosphere to it. I kind of like Christmas shopping in crowds, too, even though I hate shopping, can't stand waiting in lines, and generally avoid crowds. You feel like you're part of something larger. Of course, if most people vote by mail and most people shop online, then the whole thing falls apart. But for now, I plan to vote in person on election day.

I prefer to vote in person, but our county has now been all vote by mail for the past few elections, so no choice here. I also have to admit that I have never in my life had to stand in line more than five minutes to vote, so that might skew my viewpoint. And I've actually usually not voted "by mail" but by dropping off my ballot at one of the drop-off locations (usually, if I have my choice, at the county government center so it's as close to the elections office as possible!). I have to admit that I get pretty much the same rush of "civic participation" doing this as in going to the polls, with the only exception being that i don't get the little "I voted" sticker.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 08, 2020, 07:46:57 PM
The I suspect that the “Postal Service play“ that could’ve affected ballots getting to the proper place at the proper time won’t happen again.
There are other reasons to pause on the Postal Service involvement in elections .. 
Quote from: WISTV
Sen. Graham vows to follow-up on affidavit from Penn. postal worker alleging election fraud
https://www.wistv.com/2020/11/07/sen-graham-vows-follow-up-affidavit-penn-postal-worker-alleging-election-fraud/?outputType=amp (https://www.wistv.com/2020/11/07/sen-graham-vows-follow-up-affidavit-penn-postal-worker-alleging-election-fraud/?outputType=amp)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 08, 2020, 08:04:38 PM
In 1960 there was a lot of concern that the Illinois election was crooked (surprise, surprise!).  Richard Nixon was told he should contest it but he said it would harm the country to do so.  It is time for President Trump to think of the nation rather than himself.  It's time for him to be presidential.
It may come to that point the President should do something for the good of the country ... but based on historical precedent, we are not there yet. 

Neither side in 2000 was concerned as the Florida vote litigation proceeded ... if the country was not threaten in 2000, pausing for a bit in an attempt to elevate alleviate doubt is definitely in the best interest of the country.

Here endeth the history lesson.😎


Edit: strike through of the errant spell/grammar check😶
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Keith Falk on November 08, 2020, 08:30:18 PM
In 1960 there was a lot of concern that the Illinois election was crooked (surprise, surprise!).  Richard Nixon was told he should contest it but he said it would harm the country to do so.  It is time for President Trump to think of the nation rather than himself.  It's time for him to be presidential.
It may come to that point the President should do something for the good of the country ... but based on historical precedent, we are not there yet. 

Neither side in 2000 was concerned as the Florida vote litigation proceeded ... if the country was not threaten in 2000, pausing for a bit in an attempt to elevate doubt is definitely in the best interest of the country.

Here endeth the history lesson.😎


Sure hope you mean "alleviate" doubt, as opposed to "elevate" doubt!   ;D
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 08:34:26 PM
Pastor Fienen:
However, there was substantial evidence that in this coronavirus pandemic they (the WHO) were more subservient to the will of the Chinese government than to the prompt assistance in understanding and containing the pandemic. That does not assist fulfilling the WHO mission and mandate and needs to be corrected.

Me:
Maybe that’s true, maybe not. But if it is, we can’t correct it if we’re not in the organization, can we?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 08:51:12 PM
Pastor Fienen:
However, there was substantial evidence that in this coronavirus pandemic they (the WHO) were more subservient to the will of the Chinese government than to the prompt assistance in understanding and containing the pandemic. That does not assist fulfilling the WHO mission and mandate and needs to be corrected.

Me:
Maybe that’s true, maybe not. But if it is, we can’t correct it if we’re not in the organization, can we?
Depends on what you’re trying to keep healthy and strong, the WHO or the United States.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 08, 2020, 08:51:43 PM
Apparently Biden plans a flurry of executive actions on "Day One" to reverse actions of the Trump presidency.  With a thinner majority margin in the House and the possibility that Republicans retain the Senate, it appears that he will exert a lot of quick change via executive order.  That, of course, is his prerogative, and Trump used the same authority.  But it will be interesting how far he plans to go and if many of his actions will alienate him from the very people with whom he pledged to work toward unity and healing.  Proposed executive orders will cover a wide range of actions from climate control issues to gender identity issues to gun control.  He wants to see the Equality Act signed into law, a law that would add “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” as protected classes under federal civil rights law. This will certainly be a contentious one, and it will be interesting to see how intrusive this law will be into private employment practices and religious institutions.  Along with this will be orders impacting schools and how they deal with transgendered students in terms of access to sports, locker rooms, etc. These kinds of actions will again cause legal issues for religious institutions and cause no little push back and conflict. As far as the pandemic is concerned he is looking at the possibility of a nationwide mask order, although it is already questioned if he has the legal authority to enforce such a mandate.  Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus.  But a nationwide mandate could very well exacerbate concerns from the other side of the aisle of government overreach.  Regarding energy policies, he wants to reduce extraction of oil and gas, like directing the Department of the Interior to halt oil and gas leases and fracking on federal lands. I know he wants to move in the direction of the "New Green Deal," and many accept the development of alternative energy sources.  But there's tension here and a lot at stake economically.  I hope he doesn't push it too far too fast. There is a lot of division between Republicans and Democrats on this issue.

Some of these orders may not have much impact or negative reactions. But, again, if he is serious about restoring unity and bringing healing to divisions, a flurry of actions designed to reverse as much of Trump's policies as possible in a short period of time is going to send the contrary signal that his priority is to erase anything Trump did - and by extension anything others supported that Trump did.

Personally, I would hope Biden will not step on the gas too hard in those first few weeks and months. I think many will stand behind him if he makes reasonable efforts to combat COVID-19.  He campaigned on that heavily and polls showed it had a broad concern in the electorate.  Although even here he must consider that not all Americans are on the same page. How heavy handed he is or appears to be could do more harm than good to his goal of bringing people together. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 08:59:04 PM
Peter writes:
Depends on what you’re trying to keep healthy and strong, the WHO or the United States.

I comment:
Explain to me how participating fully in WHO would weaken the United States.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 09:29:23 PM
Peter writes:
Depends on what you’re trying to keep healthy and strong, the WHO or the United States.

I comment:
Explain to me how participating fully in WHO would weaken the United States.
If the WHO is actively protecting China and/or modifying its directives and advice according to the dictates of Communists, then we are better off not trusting them or contributing to them. We influence them more by withholding support (or threatening to) than we do supporting them.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 09:43:20 PM
Lord, Peter, I’m glad you are not a diplomat. You would give up your seat at the table because you don’t like who they talk to.
And you didn’t answer my question about how being in the WHO weakens the United States.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 10:34:21 PM
Pastor Engebretson:
As far as the pandemic is concerned he is looking at the possibility of a nationwide mask order, although it is already questioned if he has the legal authority to enforce such a mandate.  Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus.  But a nationwide mandate could very well exacerbate concerns from the other side of the aisle of government overreach.

I comment:
Yeah, that makes sense.
“No government is going to tell me what to do,“ I say. “And maybe wearing a mask will help me and the people around me keep safe from the virus,” I say again, “but dammit, if the government tells me to do it I ain’t gonna do it!”
Are so many of our people really that stupid?

You write:
Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus. 
I comment:
That makes it sound as if there’s something “iffy” or “maybe” about wearing a mask. There isn’t.
Those who will not wear a mask just because the government orders them to do so are stupid.
Those who will not wear a mask just because they think it’s nothing more than a “suggestion” that “might help” are insane.
But we digress.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 10:41:21 PM
Lord, Peter, I’m glad you are not a diplomat. You would give up your seat at the table because you don’t like who they talk to.
And you didn’t answer my question about how being in the WHO weakens the United States.
You're missing the point. It isn't who they talk to, it is who they take orders from or skew their outlook toward. We legitimize and enable that by keeping our seat at the table at all costs.

I don't really care much about the WHO. We can be in or out and it makes me no nevermind, as the kids these days say. Reinstating DACA doesn't bother me in the slightest, either, though it enrages many Trump supporters. Those are standard things whereby you agree or disagree and say, well, elections have consequences. They don't destroy unity. But there will be no unity anyway. His published list of of "day one" executive orders includes reinstating critical race theory training in federal departments (after Trump's order got rid of it) and declaring that all sports, locker rooms, and restrooms (presumably that receive federal funding, so mostly just schools) allow transgender people to select on their basis of self-identification rather than biological sex. Those are fundamental declaration of an official worldview based on nonsense. No conservative will ever support or even tolerate those things even if they affect relatively few people.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 10:44:31 PM

Those who will not wear a mask just because the government orders them to do so are stupid.
Those who will not wear a mask just because they think it’s nothing more than a “suggestion” that “might help” are insane.
But we digress.
Again, the "but we digress" signals a post that never should have been made. I wear a mask wherever it is required, and not where it is not required. I am neither stupid nor insane.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 08, 2020, 11:30:24 PM
And I would pin a rose  on you, Peter, but I was referring to the people who won’t   wear masks.
Or for those who make not wearing masks a big make or break big political deal.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 08, 2020, 11:37:59 PM
Even the malice that some of us feel concerning Trump doesn’t matter here and now.
Wow this sounds encouraging ...
I for one, am glad I will not have to consider Trump’s various inadequacies for very much longer. That is a relief.
You can’t even type one malice free sentence.🤬🤬🤬🤬
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2020, 11:41:57 PM
And I would pin a rose  on you, Peter, but I was referring to the people who won’t   wear masks.
Or for those who make not wearing masks a big make or break big political deal.
It seems to me you’re making wearing masks a big make or break political deal. And when you attempt to evaluate cultural divides, you far too easily conclude that people are stupid, insane, racist, or some other easy type of person to disregard. You rarely give even a modicum of evidence that you actually understand the people you disagree with. You just write them off. You’ve learned not to use the word deplorable, but you cling bitterly to the general concept.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 09, 2020, 12:04:08 AM
In 1960 there was a lot of concern that the Illinois election was crooked (surprise, surprise!).  Richard Nixon was told he should contest it but he said it would harm the country to do so.  It is time for President Trump to think of the nation rather than himself.  It's time for him to be presidential.
It may come to that point the President should do something for the good of the country ... but based on historical precedent, we are not there yet. 

Neither side in 2000 was concerned as the Florida vote litigation proceeded ... if the country was not threaten in 2000, pausing for a bit in an attempt to elevate doubt is definitely in the best interest of the country.

Here endeth the history lesson.😎
Sure hope you mean "alleviate" doubt, as opposed to "elevate" doubt!   ;D
Yup ... ain’t spell/grammar check wonderful ... if it could only realize that ‘fo’ is really ‘of’ everyone would be better off.😶
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 12:15:52 AM
Peter writes:
It seems to me you’re making wearing masks a big make or break political deal.
I comment:
No, I don't make it any kind of a political deal. But those who say that ordering masks is a government "overreaching" or who deny the need for masks or who - in their own minds - don't believe the virus is all that bad make it a political deal and threaten public safety. They may be terrific people, lovable and kind and maybe even live with a cat or two, but on this matter, they are being stupid. Or insane. Is like if your teenager asks if he can take the car to New Orleans for Mardi Gras or out west for Burning Man, you say no and when he asks why, you explain why that would be a stupid thing to do.


Peter writes:
And when you attempt to evaluate cultural divides, you far too easily conclude that people are stupid, insane, racist, or some other easy type of person to disregard.
I comment:
See above. And admit that some people in the world are stupid, racist and other bad things.
There's that line from the Academy Award winning song, "Swinging on a Star" which Bing Crosby sang in "Going My Way," in which he crooned "All the monkeys aren't in a zoo; every day you'll meet quite a few." Yeah.

Peter writes:
You rarely give even a modicum of evidence that you actually understand the people you disagree with. You just write them off. You’ve learned not to use the word deplorable, but you cling bitterly to the general concept.
I comment:
And there you go again, pretending to read deeply into my mind. (And my computer has software which can prevent you from doing that, so long as I wear a headset and have a bowl of Cheetos nearby.) Writing off everyone who disagrees with me would be stupid, politically, socially and culturally. But here's a hard fact. There are some I know I must write off because it would not be a good use of my time to attempt to bring them out of their darkness.
They are lost to any blandishments I might offer or ideas I might present.
And, if I feel their attitudes present a clear and present danger to public health or the peaceful social order, and if I feel I must in good conscience reject their attitudes and actions, I will howl about them.
Every pastor has those lapsed members who will not come back to responsible church membership, maybe not even showing up every Christmas and/or Easter. They are religious barbarians and their presence can threaten faith itself.
So it is with some people politically.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 12:23:50 AM
Pastor Fienen:
However, there was substantial evidence that in this coronavirus pandemic they (the WHO) were more subservient to the will of the Chinese government than to the prompt assistance in understanding and containing the pandemic. That does not assist fulfilling the WHO mission and mandate and needs to be corrected.

Me:
Maybe that’s true, maybe not. But if it is, we can’t correct it if we’re not in the organization, can we?
Depends on what you’re trying to keep healthy and strong, the WHO or the United States.


C. None of the above.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 12:38:15 AM
Apparently Biden plans a flurry of executive actions on "Day One" to reverse actions of the Trump presidency. With a thinner majority margin in the House and the possibility that Republicans retain the Senate, it appears that he will exert a lot of quick change via executive order.


But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed.


Quote
That, of course, is his prerogative, and Trump used the same authority.  But it will be interesting how far he plans to go and if many of his actions will alienate him from the very people with whom he pledged to work toward unity and healing.



He is the President of the United States, not the chair of the Congress. Certainly, he will have to work with congress: the Democrats and Republicans. If he convinces enough of the American people that his plans are good for the country, they can put pressure on their Senators and Representatives to do what is right and good for our nation.


Quote
As far as the pandemic is concerned he is looking at the possibility of a nationwide mask order, although it is already questioned if he has the legal authority to enforce such a mandate.  Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus.  But a nationwide mandate could very well exacerbate concerns from the other side of the aisle of government overreach.


I remember when the Federal government mandated a nationwide 55 mph speed limit in order to conserve gas consumption. If they could do that, I would think that curbing the spread of a virus would be even more important legislation.


Quote
Regarding energy policies, he wants to reduce extraction of oil and gas, like directing the Department of the Interior to halt oil and gas leases and fracking on federal lands. I know he wants to move in the direction of the "New Green Deal," and many accept the development of alternative energy sources.  But there's tension here and a lot at stake economically.  I hope he doesn't push it too far too fast. There is a lot of division between Republicans and Democrats on this issue.


I've had relatives and friends who worked in the oil and gas industry. They no longer have their jobs. It certainly wasn't any policies in 2021 that caused them to lose them.

Quote
Some of these orders may not have much impact or negative reactions. But, again, if he is serious about restoring unity and bringing healing to divisions, a flurry of actions designed to reverse as much of Trump's policies as possible in a short period of time is going to send the contrary signal that his priority is to erase anything Trump did - and by extension anything others supported that Trump did.

Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 09, 2020, 06:45:11 AM
As we were voting and then watching the almost endless vote count the Coronavirus raged and advanced. The number of infections and hospitalizations grows daily. Very concerning.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: wmattsfield on November 09, 2020, 08:00:04 AM
Apparently Biden plans a flurry of executive actions on "Day One" to reverse actions of the Trump presidency. With a thinner majority margin in the House and the possibility that Republicans retain the Senate, it appears that he will exert a lot of quick change via executive order.


But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed.


Quote
That, of course, is his prerogative, and Trump used the same authority.  But it will be interesting how far he plans to go and if many of his actions will alienate him from the very people with whom he pledged to work toward unity and healing.



He is the President of the United States, not the chair of the Congress. Certainly, he will have to work with congress: the Democrats and Republicans. If he convinces enough of the American people that his plans are good for the country, they can put pressure on their Senators and Representatives to do what is right and good for our nation.


Quote
As far as the pandemic is concerned he is looking at the possibility of a nationwide mask order, although it is already questioned if he has the legal authority to enforce such a mandate.  Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus.  But a nationwide mandate could very well exacerbate concerns from the other side of the aisle of government overreach.


I remember when the Federal government mandated a nationwide 55 mph speed limit in order to conserve gas consumption. If they could do that, I would think that curbing the spread of a virus would be even more important legislation.


Quote
Regarding energy policies, he wants to reduce extraction of oil and gas, like directing the Department of the Interior to halt oil and gas leases and fracking on federal lands. I know he wants to move in the direction of the "New Green Deal," and many accept the development of alternative energy sources.  But there's tension here and a lot at stake economically.  I hope he doesn't push it too far too fast. There is a lot of division between Republicans and Democrats on this issue.


I've had relatives and friends who worked in the oil and gas industry. They no longer have their jobs. It certainly wasn't any policies in 2021 that caused them to lose them.

Quote
Some of these orders may not have much impact or negative reactions. But, again, if he is serious about restoring unity and bringing healing to divisions, a flurry of actions designed to reverse as much of Trump's policies as possible in a short period of time is going to send the contrary signal that his priority is to erase anything Trump did - and by extension anything others supported that Trump did.

Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.


This seem to me to say, "We won. You lost. Unity means agreeing with us." I wonder if there will be an "or else" attached.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 08:23:53 AM
Apparently Biden plans a flurry of executive actions on "Day One" to reverse actions of the Trump presidency. With a thinner majority margin in the House and the possibility that Republicans retain the Senate, it appears that he will exert a lot of quick change via executive order.


But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed.


Quote
That, of course, is his prerogative, and Trump used the same authority.  But it will be interesting how far he plans to go and if many of his actions will alienate him from the very people with whom he pledged to work toward unity and healing.



He is the President of the United States, not the chair of the Congress. Certainly, he will have to work with congress: the Democrats and Republicans. If he convinces enough of the American people that his plans are good for the country, they can put pressure on their Senators and Representatives to do what is right and good for our nation.


Quote
As far as the pandemic is concerned he is looking at the possibility of a nationwide mask order, although it is already questioned if he has the legal authority to enforce such a mandate.  Many accept the wearing of masks as part of the way we deal with the spread of the virus.  But a nationwide mandate could very well exacerbate concerns from the other side of the aisle of government overreach.


I remember when the Federal government mandated a nationwide 55 mph speed limit in order to conserve gas consumption. If they could do that, I would think that curbing the spread of a virus would be even more important legislation.


Quote
Regarding energy policies, he wants to reduce extraction of oil and gas, like directing the Department of the Interior to halt oil and gas leases and fracking on federal lands. I know he wants to move in the direction of the "New Green Deal," and many accept the development of alternative energy sources.  But there's tension here and a lot at stake economically.  I hope he doesn't push it too far too fast. There is a lot of division between Republicans and Democrats on this issue.


I've had relatives and friends who worked in the oil and gas industry. They no longer have their jobs. It certainly wasn't any policies in 2021 that caused them to lose them.

Quote
Some of these orders may not have much impact or negative reactions. But, again, if he is serious about restoring unity and bringing healing to divisions, a flurry of actions designed to reverse as much of Trump's policies as possible in a short period of time is going to send the contrary signal that his priority is to erase anything Trump did - and by extension anything others supported that Trump did.

Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.


This seem to me to say, "We won. You lost. Unity means agreeing with us." I wonder if there will be an "or else" attached.

I had a similar sense.  And that was my original point.  If Biden is serious about "unity and healing," which he keeps talking about now as he prepares to assume the mantle of leadership, I am looking for signs that he wants to at least consider where folks are at who do not agree with him.  Popular vote is mentioned.  Trump still received nearly 71 million votes, or 47.7%.  I would hope that Biden is considering that nearly half of America was not prepared to vote for him and adopt his policies.  If he wants to write them off with the now familiar mantra "elections have consequences," then so be it.  But then he should drop the call for unity and healing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 08:30:31 AM
Regarding masks - For the record I wear one all the time.  More now than I did in the beginning.  I've even started wearing a KN95 mask for extra protection.  I had a lady at my last funeral - the soloist - who called me on Friday to inform me of COVID-like symptoms (test results still outstanding, as far as I know).  I've been having members of my parish coming down with it.  I buried a member who died from it.  So I see the value and follow my governor's order.

But I know this is a divisive issue, which for some people is a freedom issue.  I don't agree with it, as you can see from my own practice, but I realize folks out there do not feel the same about it. I also know that the governor's mask mandate in Wisconsin not only experienced some push back from leaders on the other side of the aisle, but it also appears virtually unenforceable.  The CDC is already on record and has been for a long time about the value of wearing masks.  Biden was very open about wearing a mask during the election.  My sense is that strong encouragement and personal example from his position is what is needed, not an attempt at invoking a law-like force that may only anger a number of people and exacerbate his efforts to bring "unity and healing." 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 08:36:18 AM
But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed...
Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

As I noted in a previous post, 47.7% of the vote counted thus far went for Trump.  Regardless of how you want to measure that 'margin,' it represents nearly 71 million people.  Their views count, too.  Now if Biden wants to govern seeking unity he will consider that sizeable and significant number regardless of his 'margin.' And if he wants to see the House maintain its majority in two years he will consider that number.  He will govern with a House having a thinner majority than they did before.  That will not make passing laws any easier.  I don't think that a leader who makes a lot of unity and healing can disregard so many people.  He can, it's his prerogative.  But it would be disingenuous and not wise.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 08:41:02 AM
Pastor Engebretson:
My sense is that strong encouragement and personal example from his position is what is needed, not an attempt at invoking a law-like force that may only anger a number of people and exacerbate his efforts to bring "unity and healing."
Me:
Yes. Maybe. Probably.
But if too many go maskless...
the “enforcement” may have to come from retailers. “You want to shop at Target/Walmart/Costco? Put on a mask. And if you are not wearing it properly inside, out you go.”
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: wmattsfield on November 09, 2020, 08:59:23 AM
Quote
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
We are uncertain about this because we also hear talk about a mandate to implement his policies as though there is no opposition to them. He can have his polices without compromise or he can pay attention to those who voted against him - but not both.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 09:06:18 AM
Pastor Engebretson:
My sense is that strong encouragement and personal example from his position is what is needed, not an attempt at invoking a law-like force that may only anger a number of people and exacerbate his efforts to bring "unity and healing."
Me:
Yes. Maybe. Probably.
But if too many go maskless...
the “enforcement” may have to come from retailers. “You want to shop at Target/Walmart/Costco? Put on a mask. And if you are not wearing it properly inside, out you go.”
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
If he is president, he will be president for all Americans. So was Trump. So was Obama. So was Bush. We only have one president at a time. Some presidents, like Trump and Obama, ram through what they want via executive order or via 100% partisan legislation. Others, like Clinton and Bush, hesitate to do anything major without some bipartisan support.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 09:17:08 AM
Pastor Engebretson:
My sense is that strong encouragement and personal example from his position is what is needed, not an attempt at invoking a law-like force that may only anger a number of people and exacerbate his efforts to bring "unity and healing."
Me:
Yes. Maybe. Probably.
But if too many go maskless...
the “enforcement” may have to come from retailers. “You want to shop at Target/Walmart/Costco? Put on a mask. And if you are not wearing it properly inside, out you go.”
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?

I echo what the previous posters said, and add only that Biden has made much of wanting to bring unity and healing to a divided electorate and country.  I want to believe him. But as I noted before, his first actions will either demonstrate the sincerity of that promise or show it to be political rhetoric. Right now I'm getting mixed signals. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over.
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 09:27:17 AM
Wmattsfield writes:
We are uncertain about this because we also hear talk about a mandate to implement his policies as though there is no opposition to them

I comment:
Tell me where you are hearing this, and from whom? If there are specific people talking such “talk” as you report, I will personally write them an email or a letter or something and tell them they are saying foolish things. But I’m willing to bet you’re not hearing that “talk” from Biden or his close advisers.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 09, 2020, 09:53:20 AM
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
Actions speak louder than words. We all know what he said and says. Now we will see how he acts.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 09, 2020, 09:55:15 AM
Quote
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
We are uncertain about this because we also hear talk about a mandate to implement his policies as though there is no opposition to them. He can have his polices without compromise or he can pay attention to those who voted against him - but not both.
Receiving 50.7 percent of the popular vote is hardly a mandate ... receiving fewer electoral votes than President Trump in 2016 is even less of a mandate since the progressives have incessantly dissed the 2016 election results.

Talk of mandate with 50.7 of the vote is hardly unifying ... and clearly reveals the hypocrisy of some. Perhaps this is simply political posturing during this time before the vote is officially certified. 

Thus far the ‘victory’ has only been announced by biased media sources desiring to be the news rather than to report the news.

By the way, the Stoffregen statement ‘ But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed.’ hardly sounds unifying ... much less the desire to work together ... and much more like the childish ‘I won rant’.

Any way you cut deliberately spinning the current election number (currently lacking certified results) by speaking of existing margins as ‘much, much wider or as a mandate is hardly a unifying action ... it smacks more of a childish sandbox like rant than any unifying effort.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Peter writes:
If he is president, he will be president for all Americans. So was Trump. So was Obama. So was Bush. We only have one president at a time. Some presidents, like Trump and Obama, ram through what they want via executive order or via 100% partisan legislation. Others, like Clinton and Bush, hesitate to do anything major without some bipartisan support.
I comment:
Peter, you have a maddening tendency towards literalism that makes it very difficult to continue the conversation.  the issue is not whether Biden is the president of all Americans, it is whether he will act as president of all. And his career in the Senate gives him a track record in bipartisan cooperation.
Now here’s what’s going to happen for some of you. Biden’s administration is going to make a proposal. It will state what they really want. And you will go ballistic and howl about how it is forcing their hard-left agenda on the country. Meanwhile sensible people will take that proposal and begin discussing how it might or might not work and what compromises, repeat compromises, will be necessary to make it work.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 09, 2020, 10:00:06 AM
"Another of [Biden's] welcome campaign messages is one that he repeated Friday: 'We may be opponents, but we are not enemies. We are Americans.'

It’s absolutely the right tone, but some of his key supporters sound more interested in humiliation and revenge than reconciliation.

His spokesman, Andrew Bates, also said Friday in a statement about Trump that “the United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House.”

No doubt that played well with the deep-state haters and resistance crowd, but it smacked of juvenile bravado and Bates deserves a visit to the woodshed. By letting the public know he doesn’t approve of such talk, Biden would be affirming his unity pledge to all Americans.

As for Ocasio-Cortez, she is supporting the reprehensible idea of having her side keep lists of Trump supporters, writing on Twitter: 'Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future?'

A group of Never Trumpers echoed the banana-republic notion, saying they aimed to punish the president’s supporters. Jennifer Rubin, the odious Washington Post columnist, wrote that Trump supporters 'should never serve in office, join a corporate board, find a faculty position or be accepted into ‘polite’ society. We have a list.'

The best response Biden could give is to say that he, too, is keeping a list — of those who continue to stir hatred and division and that he denounces them, regardless of how they voted."

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/biden-call-unity-serious-michael-goodwin

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 09, 2020, 10:26:08 AM
And I would pin a rose  on you, Peter, but I was referring to the people who won’t   wear masks. Or for those who make not wearing masks a big make or break big political deal.
It seems to me you’re making wearing masks a big make or break political deal. And when you attempt to evaluate cultural divides, you far too easily conclude that people are stupid, insane, racist, or some other easy type of person to disregard. You rarely give even a modicum of evidence that you actually understand the people you disagree with. You just write them off. You’ve learned not to use the word deplorable, but you cling bitterly to the general concept.

Rev Speckhard may have just made the post of the year ... and hit the heart of the forum’s decorum problems.

Yes ... deplorable may no longer be used for those who do hold the Austin-esque point of view ... but deplorable has simply been replaced with insane (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492476#msg492476), stupid (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492476#msg492476), ‘banana republic (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492429#msg492429)’ and even ‘those out of their darkness (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492483#msg492483)’ just to name a few in the past 24 hours to name a few.

The recent ballistic (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7650.msg492499#msg492499) comment is anything but unifying talk.

Furthermore, since your years in Geneva were actually years and/or decades ago ... possible dating back to the previous millennium, things may have changes just a bit ... similar to the bit of change in the ELCA over the past years, decades bad dating to the previous millennium?

Remember ... even an expert wa once a drip under pressure.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 10:27:33 AM
I have removed from this posting comments related to Pastor Kirchner, although in my not so humble opinion, they were reasoned, calm, and gently worded, did not call any names or make any judgements, he says we are not supposed to speak to each other. That of course, gives him the ability to post difficult words about "my side" and deprives me of the ability to respond.
But nuts to it. I removed my words. And so it goes.
Side historical note, pointed out by Beloved Spouse, which I failed to mention earlier. The white pant suit worn by the Vice President-Elect at that victory celebration was a homage to the suffragettes of 100 years ago, who wore white as they were campaigning to get the laws changed so that women could vote. Beloved Spouse also corrects my language if I say women were "given" the right to vote in 1920. "No," she says, "we were not 'given' the vote. We fought for it and we took it."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 09, 2020, 10:28:06 AM
The Senate run-off elections will be a high dollar battle.  To lighten the mood (?),

General William Tecumsah (Chuck) Schumer (New Yorker, not Ohioan like Gen. Sherman) announced yesterday that he and his army of Senate campaign warriors are going to march down and "take Georgia".
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 10:30:52 AM
Note to all:
I really tire of these personal shots from Julio, who seems obsessed with anything I post. I try to ignore them, and would hope that sensible participants in this modest forum would not consider them a helpful part of the discussion. The most recent post from "Julio" is a prime example.
As is the tagline of another anonymous poster.
Remember, we progressives have feelings, too. Oh, wait, I forgot. Feelings don't matter.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 09, 2020, 10:40:22 AM
Note to all:
I really tire of these personal shots from Julio, who seems obsessed with anything I post. I try to ignore them, and would hope that sensible participants in this modest forum would not consider them a helpful part of the discussion. The most recent post from "Julio" is a prime example.
As is the tagline of another anonymous poster.
Remember, we progressives have feelings, too. Oh, wait, I forgot. Feelings don't matter.
It’s hardly a personal shot to point out the conflicted message that Rev. Austin sent… Criticizing and lambasting his opponents while piously crying for unity.

In fact, my desire is to increase form decorum… Reduce the personal attack and bombastic language the tragically occurs so frequently on this humble form.

Personal attack is not repeat not anything that opposes Rev. Austin’s point of view.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 10:41:45 AM
Note to all:
I really tire of these personal shots from Julio, who seems obsessed with anything I post. I try to ignore them, and would hope that sensible participants in this modest forum would not consider them a helpful part of the discussion. The most recent post from "Julio" is a prime example.
As is the tagline of another anonymous poster.
Remember, we progressives have feelings, too. Oh, wait, I forgot. Feelings don't matter.
What post of Julio are you talking about?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 09, 2020, 10:48:13 AM
I have come to believe that Ocasio-Cortez and the other members of "the squad" have some kind of authority or influence because conservative media gave it to them.  The member from New York brings a level of ignorance and childishness seldom seen in the House of Representatives where ignorance and childishness have often been on display in recent decades.  The best way to deal with her is to ignore her.  Besides, she isn't the first commie to serve from NYC (I've forgotten his name but one of the congressman in the 1930's was a member of the CPUSA)

But whatever she is, she does not have power unless we give it to her.  Forget about her and she'll disappear into well deserved oblivion.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
I suppose it's tempting to say, 'Just give the man a chance. He's barely been elected.'  But he himself has signaled that he has no plans to sit on his laurels, but is even as we speak assembling his advisors in preparation for office.  He is making statements.  He does not plan to wait until inauguration day to be ready. And I take him at his word that the tone of his presidency will be one of unity and healing. I think that the first things you state and the initial actions you take send a signal of whether that is mere rhetoric or real intent. 

I would like to believe that if he approaches his work this way those on the other side of the aisle will work with him.  It would be easy, of course, to immediately turn to Republicans and put the burden on them if they appear be obstructionists.  But Biden is the lead man here.  That's the nature of the office. And he needs to signal loud and clear that his initial intent for unity and healing is genuine. And he needs to make sure those who speak for him are on the same page. The stage is going to be set now, not in January.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 11:35:52 AM
Peter:
What post of Julio are you talking about?
Me:
His reply #131.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 09, 2020, 12:07:39 PM
David Garner:
The institutions of our society, specifically the media and bureaucracy, destroyed themselves. Often with your active apologia, and even cheerleading. If you want to strengthen them, stop making excuses for their awful behavior and hold them accountable.
Me:
Cannot deal with such vague, broad declarations. The “bureaucracy” of government has been, for four years, in the hands of the party that lost the presidency (but remains strong elsewhere). Dominant media include Fox News and Trump-lovers all over social networks. (I have not been swishing pom poms and shouting for them.) Other “institutions”? Science? Medicine? Education? Retail stores? Religion? Philanthropy? Sports? The arts? Hardly “destroyed,” for which we thank God and the resilience and good will of the American people.
This is Proof that we should be able to work together for a better future..

They aren't yours to deal with.  I said what I said.

More, this is a dodge.  And you know it. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 09, 2020, 12:16:38 PM
Ross Douthat has an interesting post-mortem.  The gist of it is that at its best, Trumpism represented a potential multiethnic coalition more focused on blue collar workers, social conservatism, and economic populism than previous Republican leaders, a coalition that is now just shy of a majority.  The big question is whether it could be a majority absent Trump's abrasive personality, or whether it would be a smaller minority without Trump's personal appeal to some segments of the coalition:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/opinion/sunday/is-there-a-trumpism-after-trump.html

My take is simple.  It's not only a majority, but likely a permanent majority, if Republicans can moderate on race and other divisive issues and take the best of Trump's approach without the worst of it. 

Most of the country is not in the rabidly woke camp that the Democrat base is.  It is also not in the same place as the angrier parts of the Republican base.  But Republicans are better positioned to move in their direction, because on social issues they are where most of the country is, and they can easily pivot on economic issues.  For example, come up with an actual healthcare plan instead of promising to "fix" something that they have shown no inclination to actually do anything about.  Etc.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 12:17:10 PM
I have reluctantly modified the comment just upstream because of Pastor Kirchner’s objection.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 09, 2020, 12:18:23 PM
Julio's posts are tiresome, bothersome, and ill-mannered.  The Election is over.  Stop attacking individuals on this Forum and post something constructive.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 01:13:06 PM
Regarding masks - For the record I wear one all the time.  More now than I did in the beginning.  I've even started wearing a KN95 mask for extra protection.  I had a lady at my last funeral - the soloist - who called me on Friday to inform me of COVID-like symptoms (test results still outstanding, as far as I know).  I've been having members of my parish coming down with it.  I buried a member who died from it.  So I see the value and follow my governor's order.

But I know this is a divisive issue, which for some people is a freedom issue.  I don't agree with it, as you can see from my own practice, but I realize folks out there do not feel the same about it. I also know that the governor's mask mandate in Wisconsin not only experienced some push back from leaders on the other side of the aisle, but it also appears virtually unenforceable.  The CDC is already on record and has been for a long time about the value of wearing masks.  Biden was very open about wearing a mask during the election.  My sense is that strong encouragement and personal example from his position is what is needed, not an attempt at invoking a law-like force that may only anger a number of people and exacerbate his efforts to bring "unity and healing."


True, a Federally law-like enforcement of mask-wearing may not bring "unity," but it could bring "healing" and a quicker end to the pandemic in our country.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 09, 2020, 01:20:30 PM
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the President Elect.  Evangelicals are politically power hungry and do not confine themselves to doing the work of the Lord,  This is my letter to NY Times which has been approved for distribution.   

"Your comment has been approved!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with The New York Times community.

Norman Teigen | Hopkins MN
In 1780 Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Richard Price on the subject of religious tests: "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." see the Library of America collection."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 01:22:30 PM
Quote
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
We are uncertain about this because we also hear talk about a mandate to implement his policies as though there is no opposition to them. He can have his polices without compromise or he can pay attention to those who voted against him - but not both.
Receiving 50.7 percent of the popular vote is hardly a mandate ... receiving fewer electoral votes than President Trump in 2016 is even less of a mandate since the progressives have incessantly dissed the 2016 election results.
Electoral college votes do not necessarily express the will of the people.



Quote
By the way, the Stoffregen statement ‘ But he has a much, much wider margin (in his favor) in the popular vote, than the previous president had. That suggests that the people of the United States would like to see many of Trump's policies changed.’ hardly sounds unifying ... much less the desire to work together ... and much more like the childish ‘I won rant’.


The desire to have change, doesn't say what the process will be to make those changes.

Quote
Any way you cut deliberately spinning the current election number (currently lacking certified results) by speaking of existing margins as ‘much, much wider or as a mandate is hardly a unifying action ... it smacks more of a childish sandbox like rant than any unifying effort.


And your ranting that I'm ranting is even more sandbox like.


Part of the change that I, and I think many desire, is the working together with congress for bipartisan acts that benefit most Americans. Such acts must include better ways of curtailing the coronavirus. It must include health-care and immigration reforms.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mj4 on November 09, 2020, 01:26:31 PM
Ross Douthat has an interesting post-mortem.  The gist of it is that at its best, Trumpism represented a potential multiethnic coalition more focused on blue collar workers, social conservatism, and economic populism than previous Republican leaders, a coalition that is now just shy of a majority.  The big question is whether it could be a majority absent Trump's abrasive personality, or whether it would be a smaller minority without Trump's personal appeal to some segments of the coalition:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/opinion/sunday/is-there-a-trumpism-after-trump.html

My take is simple.  It's not only a majority, but likely a permanent majority, if Republicans can moderate on race and other divisive issues and take the best of Trump's approach without the worst of it. 

Most of the country is not in the rabidly woke camp that the Democrat base is.  It is also not in the same place as the angrier parts of the Republican base.  But Republicans are better positioned to move in their direction, because on social issues they are where most of the country is, and they can easily pivot on economic issues.  For example, come up with an actual healthcare plan instead of promising to "fix" something that they have shown no inclination to actually do anything about.  Etc.

I agree. Republicans have a great opportunity to build a new multiracial populist coalition without Trump. But they’ve got to make some changes in order to capitalize on the moment. Trump was elected on the populist impulse but squandered his chance to give it shape by tripping over his own ego. He also appointed advisors who were corrupt and let some like Steven Miller betray values that are woven into the very fabric of the American identity.

I could foresee a successful Republican Party that embraces its history as a champion of emancipation, smaller government, environmentalism (without necessarily going full on Green New Deal), and create opportunity for individual economic success. It would also need to get us out of the wars we are currently fighting (Is it six or seven now?) and come up with a smart and efficient healthcare plan. It would be a more populist and even progressive Republican Party, one less concerned with Wall Street and more concerned with Main Street, to use a cliché.

All of this would make the corporate elites and lobbyists squirm, but I think it would be a winning approach.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 09, 2020, 01:30:29 PM
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the Vice-President Elect.

Are you suggesting that Kamala Harris is the president-elect?   ;)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 01:45:03 PM
"Another of [Biden's] welcome campaign messages is one that he repeated Friday: 'We may be opponents, but we are not enemies. We are Americans.'


Russ Saltzman, who had been involved in politics in his younger days said something like that in a newspaper interview some 35 years ago. Opponents do not have to become enemies. Lawyers oppose each other in the courtroom, without becoming enemies. Athletes oppose each other on the playing field without becoming enemies. (They could be teammates next season.)

Quote
It’s absolutely the right tone, but some of his key supporters sound more interested in humiliation and revenge than reconciliation.


And some of Trump's supports engaged in illegal acts (and some were found guilty and imprisoned). That doesn't mean that President Trump agreed with their rhetoric or actions.

Quote
His spokesman, Andrew Bates, also said Friday in a statement about Trump that “the United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House.”


Isn't that a true statement? If (former) President Trump has not moved out of the White House by January 20, he will be a trespasser.
 
Quote
As for Ocasio-Cortez, she is supporting the reprehensible idea of having her side keep lists of Trump supporters, writing on Twitter: 'Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future?'


I have no idea what that means. I don't use Twitter. Most of the political posts I read on Facebook I ignore. Most, on both sides, are inaccurate.

Quote
A group of Never Trumpers echoed the banana-republic notion, saying they aimed to punish the president’s supporters. Jennifer Rubin, the odious Washington Post columnist, wrote that Trump supporters 'should never serve in office, join a corporate board, find a faculty position or be accepted into ‘polite’ society. We have a list.'


The best response Biden could give is to say that he, too, is keeping a list — of those who continue to stir hatred and division and that he denounces them, regardless of how they voted."


What makes you think he isn't keeping a list?



Making it more personal: are there people in your congregation who disagree with you? (There always were in congregations I served.) What do you do to balance your own convictions with trying to maintain peace within the congregation? I know that when writing sermons, I constantly had my opponents on some issues in mind. The pulpit should not be a place to espouse my partisan political views, but to proclaim the gospel - the good news from God through Jesus for all people. It had to be Law/Gospel, conviction of sins and forgiveness of sins, for all the hearers: both those who agree and disagree with me about different issues.


Note: I had a number of council members who had also served under previous clergy, comment about how peaceful our meetings were. We lost one elderly couple over our 2009 vote. They transferred to an LCMS congregation. I remained friends with them. She was active in our quilting group - and went and had snacks with them every week. I was invited to her 90th birthday party.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 09, 2020, 01:55:28 PM
"Another of [Biden's] welcome campaign messages is one that he repeated Friday: 'We may be opponents, but we are not enemies. We are Americans.'

Russ Saltzman, who had been involved in politics in his younger days said something like that in a newspaper interview some 35 years ago. Opponents do not have to become enemies. Lawyers oppose each other in the courtroom, without becoming enemies. Athletes oppose each other on the playing field without becoming enemies. (They could be teammates next season.)

Quote
It’s absolutely the right tone, but some of his key supporters sound more interested in humiliation and revenge than reconciliation.

And some of Trump's supports engaged in illegal acts (and some were found guilty and imprisoned). That doesn't mean that President Trump agreed with their rhetoric or actions.

Quote
His spokesman, Andrew Bates, also said Friday in a statement about Trump that “the United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House.”

Isn't that a true statement? If (former) President Trump has not moved out of the White House by January 20, he will be a trespasser.
 
Quote
As for Ocasio-Cortez, she is supporting the reprehensible idea of having her side keep lists of Trump supporters, writing on Twitter: 'Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future?'


I have no idea what that means. I don't use Twitter. Most of the political posts I read on Facebook I ignore. Most, on both sides, are inaccurate.

Quote
A group of Never Trumpers echoed the banana-republic notion, saying they aimed to punish the president’s supporters. Jennifer Rubin, the odious Washington Post columnist, wrote that Trump supporters 'should never serve in office, join a corporate board, find a faculty position or be accepted into ‘polite’ society. We have a list.'

The best response Biden could give is to say that he, too, is keeping a list — of those who continue to stir hatred and division and that he denounces them, regardless of how they voted."

What makes you think he isn't keeping a list?

Making it more personal: are there people in your congregation who disagree with you? (There always were in congregations I served.) What do you do to balance your own convictions with trying to maintain peace within the congregation? I know that when writing sermons, I constantly had my opponents on some issues in mind. The pulpit should not be a place to espouse my partisan political views, but to proclaim the gospel - the good news from God through Jesus for all people. It had to be Law/Gospel, conviction of sins and forgiveness of sins, for all the hearers: both those who agree and disagree with me about different issues.

Note: I had a number of council members who had also served under previous clergy, comment about how peaceful our meetings were. We lost one elderly couple over our 2009 vote. They transferred to an LCMS congregation. I remained friends with them. She was active in our quilting group - and went and had snacks with them every week. I was invited to her 90th birthday party.

I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 01:59:22 PM
P. S. Biden has said, about a million times, that he would pay attention to those who did not vote for him, That he would be a president for all Americans. Do we believe him? If so, why keep bringing it up?
Actions speak louder than words. We all know what he said and says. Now we will see how he acts.


We will also see how the Republicans in congress act. One side cannot create unity.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 02:08:50 PM
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.


You do. How do you deal with members who have different political convictions than you do? (I'm assuming that you have members that don't agree with you about every issue.) What actions do you take to try and maintain peace among the differing members of the congregation? What differences, if any, might there be between a Christian pastor seeking peace within a congregation and the congregation council and a Christian president seeking peace in our nation and the legislative branch?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mj4 on November 09, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the Vice-President Elect.  Evangelicals are politically power hungry and do not confine themselves to doing the work of the Lord,  This is my letter to NY Times which has been approved for distribution.   

"Your comment has been approved!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with The New York Times community.

Norman Teigen | Hopkins MN
In 1780 Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Richard Price on the subject of religious tests: "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." see the Library of America collection."

Your characterization of Evangelicals is too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose.

Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 09, 2020, 02:18:13 PM
In my first congregation, one of our first disputes was over what we would name the the church. There were a number of possible name suggested. Personally, I suggest Augustana as a name since it was 1980, the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession. I was not at all surprised that it was quickly eliminated. I had hoped that if I had a name rejected and the congregation saw that I accepted it being rejected that it would encourage others who had their suggestions rejected would accept that graciously. No way to tell if it helped, but the name was settled upon without a great deal of hard feelings.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Coach-Rev on November 09, 2020, 02:40:04 PM
Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

Brian, you know as well as I that the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in the past 5 elections, and it can all be traced to one of several counties in the US.  Eliminate LA for example and you eliminate the popular vote win. 

Which of course is precisely the point of the Electoral College.  But since I'm doubtless banging my head against a wall here...
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
An interesting illustration of why the electoral college is not a bad thing. A ballot measure in Colorado that is currently ahead by less than 1% and could well pass 50.1/49.9 calls for the introduction of gray wolves to Western Colorado. The problem? Most of the counties in Western Colorado voted heavily against the measure. People who live in Denver and environs, on the other hand, who will never deal with a wolf on the other side of the Rockies unless on vacation, love the idea and voted for it. And far more people live in the cities. If they had he equivalent of an electoral college, the population center, Denver, could not impose its will on the rural Western areas so easily. Nothing is easier than voting to put wolves where other people live. At a national level, the huge urban centers could vote overwhelmingly to make the Great Plains into a giant buffalo preserve. But the Great Plains states, where said buffalo would actually roam, would have a much better chance of thwarting that plan in the senate.     
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 03:18:28 PM
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.
And those who want to make something of an error in typing are just strange.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 03:18:46 PM
Remember, Trump did not receive a majority of the popular vote. Bided did. You seem to assume that a majority of people approved of what Trump did. I don't think that's true. Rather, his actions (supported by a minority,) caused some of the division were are experiencing.

Brian, you know as well as I that the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in the past 5 elections, and it can all be traced to one of several counties in the US.  Eliminate LA for example and you eliminate the popular vote win. 

Which of course is precisely the point of the Electoral College.  But since I'm doubtless banging my head against a wall here...


I certainly know the difference. I believe that the popular vote better represents the wishes of the population, even if it is skewed towards large cities. In five cases, a president was elected by the electoral college without the popular vote. I think that such a president needs to keep in mind that he did not have a large support of the population.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mj4 on November 09, 2020, 03:24:51 PM
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 03:30:10 PM
An interesting illustration of why the electoral college is not a bad thing. A ballot measure in Colorado that is currently ahead by less than 1% and could well pass 50.1/49.9 calls for the introduction of gray wolves to Western Colorado. The problem? Most of the counties in Western Colorado voted heavily against the measure. People who live in Denver and environs, on the other hand, who will never deal with a wolf on the other side of the Rockies unless on vacation, love the idea and voted for it. And far more people live in the cities. If they had he equivalent of an electoral college, the population center, Denver, could not impose its will on the rural Western areas so easily. Nothing is easier than voting to put wolves where other people live. At a national level, the huge urban centers could vote overwhelmingly to make the Great Plains into a giant buffalo preserve. But the Great Plains states, where said buffalo would actually roam, would have a much better chance of thwarting that plan in the senate.   


If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that. A majority want gray wolves in the Rocky Mountains. If one asks, "Is this a good idea?" those who live and work in the environs for the gray wolves will have a better informed view of what the decision entails - if it is good or not. However, one may also have to discern how biased they may be if they are seeking to protect their own live stock more than understanding the whole ecosystem. The trained scientist who study such things, will also have an informed opinion about the situation, even if it doesn't affect their personal lives.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 09, 2020, 03:36:48 PM
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.

You do.

So? [Let's see, how would Brian respond? Oh yeah...]  I didn't write the above. Michael Goodwin did, and I didn't say whether I agree or disagree with it. I do not feel obligated, therefore, to respond to your irrelevant questions.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 03:49:57 PM
I didn't know Michael Goodwin had a congregation.

You do.

So? [Let's see, how would Brian respond? Oh yeah...]  I didn't write the above. Michael Goodwin did, and I didn't say whether I agree or disagree with it. I do not feel obligated, therefore, to respond to your irrelevant questions.


Irrelevant question? How can you say that asking about strategies to promote peace and unity among people with different convictions is irrelevant? We pastors, face that all the time in our congregations and in our council meetings. Why wouldn't our experiences also relate to what a president should do to promote harmony in the nation and congress?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 03:51:21 PM
Friend posted this on Facebook. It's an appropriate analogy. No one should want the president (whoever s/he is) to fail.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 03:52:40 PM
If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that.

No, the "popular vote," as the name implies, pertains only to a group. In this presidential election over 47% voted against the winner.  Does that imply that they are not "the people" because they happen to fall short of a simple majority? Do they have essentially no voice simply because their candidate did not win?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 09, 2020, 04:47:20 PM
If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that.

No, the "popular vote," as the name implies, pertains only to a group.


Yes, it's the group who cast a ballot in the election.


Quote
In this presidential election over 47% voted against the winner. Does that imply that they are not "the people" because they happen to fall short of a simple majority? Do they have essentially no voice simply because their candidate did not win?


In most elections, the one who receives a majority of the votes wins. That's also true when voting on bills, resolutions, motions, etc. The majority vote expresses the wish of the people. The minority agrees to the parliamentary process and to live by the decision. Roberts Rules are designed to make sure that the minority have had a voice and had an equal opportunity to be the majority. The minority have a voice, but when there is a vote, the majority win.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 09, 2020, 04:48:50 PM

As I noted in a previous post, 47.7% of the vote counted thus far went for Trump.  . .  Their views count, too. 

I entirely agree. It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 09, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
Regarding Biden and mending fences, as I noted above I am personally very optimistic about that.

One thing he could do immediately, without even having to issue a mea culpa, is acknowledge his role in skewing the Court leftward by his treatment of judicial nominees over the years, and pledge not to try to pack or reform the Court.

He's almost certainly won the election.  He won't have to sit for re-election.  He has literally nothing at all to lose by doing this, and it would go a long way toward healing the ever-escalating partisanship around Supreme Court appointments.

Will he?  I can only hope.  I'm hopeful, but not optimistic.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 05:13:30 PM
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 05:20:08 PM
P.S.
And then there is the money factor. These legal challenges and everything attached to them must be financed by the Republican Party. The party and its campaign funds are already drained. A recent fund-raising letter says that half of all the money raised now will go to pay campaign expenses already incurred.
Are the Republicans willing to virtually bankrupt themselves in what will almost surely be a failed attempt, just because Their Guy is still acting like a tantrum-throwing four-year-old?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 05:56:56 PM

As I noted in a previous post, 47.7% of the vote counted thus far went for Trump.  . .  Their views count, too. 

I entirely agree. It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.

That is unfortunate. I'm sure the Republicans, including the president, could have set a better stage for future work together.  But now that Trump is defeated the stage is hopefully reset for future cooperation. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 05:59:31 PM
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.
You have consistently, without fail, spoken far more harshly of Trump than Trump has of Obama. Since you conclude merely from reading what Trump says that he hates Obama, it is time to look in the mirror, honestly, and admit what is obvious to everyone. You truly, deeply, hate President Trump. That is, your thoughts of him and obsession with him far exceeds anything he might feel toward Obama. Either that or you are out of line, again, in concluding that Trump hates Clinton and Obama.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 09, 2020, 06:00:05 PM
James S. Rustad writes:
Biden may want to be a unity president, but he will not be able to be one if his supporters keep taking shots at the other side (even if they use your method of taking the shot without taking the shot).  Please rise above this Charles.

I comment:
OK. Will try.
<deleted sentences about what the other side should do>
But I will try.

Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.

Well, that promise didn't hold up long.  If this is an example of what we can expect from Biden's supporters, I fear it will make be impossible for him to bring unity.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 06:03:56 PM
Richard writes:
It is worth noting, however, that in 2016, 48.2% of the vote went for Clinton. Their votes didn't seem to count for much.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. Trump's vilification of Clinton, spoken with force each time he mentioned her, continued throughout his administration. So did his hatred of President Obama, whom he viciously trashed and lied about time after time for four years. Nice bridge-building, that.
   The President's refusal to concede, his threat of rallies on his behalf, his baseless charges of massive voter fraud, and his bizarre actions - playing golf on the critical day, never mentioning the virus, beginning to fire people, odd tweets, - are the sick, desperate actions of a sick desperate man. Bluster and bullying, and then he will have to slink away, never admitting to the reality of what he has done.
   Republican leaders, somehow drained of what little courage they have, do nothing, most likely because they know that nothing will change the results and/or because they still fear his wrath, so they are willing to look like fools for the sake of the Party, and apparently it will still be His party even after His term is over.
  So the suck-ups who need the Party slurp away; those not facing re-election or having some integrity - like Romney, Bush the Younger - congratulate Biden and Harris.
   Meanwhile, the President-Elect is preparing to deal with the virus and be ready on Day One to have a program in place. Yes, it will include "executive orders," that is always the case. And he is ignoring Trump's rants and bloviations. I also suspect that when he is inaugurated, he will also be able to ignore McConnell's cowardly sycophancy and laughable claims, so that they can work together for the future.
   This is both wise and necessary, for despite the reality of who McConnell is, the new president will have to work with him.
   May God lead us, as peaceably as possible, to Jan. 20 and beyond.

I know you have chastised some for revisiting the past and re-fighting old wars.  I sense you are doing more of the same.  In the spirit of unity and healing it would be nice to move beyond name-calling. Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.  His era is drawing quickly to a close.  I know I'm one that is, in a way, already holding Biden's 'feet to the flames' about his promise to seek unity and healing. But I want to make sure that he gives clear intent from the outset.  Otherwise the stage is clear set for some pretty bitter partisan battles, especially with the seats in both houses so evenly divided. He has taken the lead in this, at least in promise.  I just want to make sure he follows through.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 06:13:54 PM
Peter, again, I do not hate the president; I despise him. And the kind side of me actually pities him. He’s a sad desperate man. I’ll bet psychiatrist are  having a whale of a time placing him on various places on their scales of metal imbalance.

Pastor Engebretson writes:
Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.
I comment:
And if the Trump supporters and defenders in this modest forum would admit that, I will try never to mention his name again. But so long as there are these “it ain’t over” partisans, He, unfortunately, is still in play. And the “it-ain’t-over” folks stand in the way of moving ahead.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 06:18:25 PM
Peter, again, I do not hate the president; I despise him. And the kind side of me actually pities him. He’s a sad desperate man. I’ll bet psychiatrist are  having a whale of a time placing him on various places on their scales of metal imbalance.

Pastor Engebretson writes:
Trump, for all intents and purposes, has lost, despite the slew of lawsuits that are being processed.
I comment:
And if the Trump supporters and defenders in this modest forum would admit that, I will try never to mention his name again. But so long as there are these “it ain’t over” partisans, He, unfortunately, is still in play. And the “it-ain’t-over” folks stand in the way of moving ahead.
If it is over, what is to be gained by insisting on that point to those who don’t think it over? It seems like the perfect opportunity to ignore them entirely. The alternative is get into an argument that will be even more pointless than it is nasty and tedious.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 06:27:32 PM
What is pointless and tedious are the insulting words thrown at those of us who are progressives, personal attacks by anonymous posters and others here. If I said similar things about certain people here...
But carry on. Again I lament what has been done to this forum. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 09, 2020, 06:35:06 PM
What is pointless and tedious are the insulting words thrown at those of us who are progressives, personal attacks by anonymous posters and others here. If I said similar things about certain people here...
But carry on. Again I lament what has been done to this forum.

And your ongoing attacks on Trump supporters don't count?  Charles, please stop.  Remember that you said "I will."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 06:58:35 PM
You get that pledge from a couple of anonymous posters here, James S. Rustad, just try. And I am not personally attacking individual Trump supporters here. “James” has had an insulting tag line here for days. I understand he has been warned but it’s still there. “Julio,” (another name for “James”?) spends half of his posts blasting me and Brian and not dealing with the topic.
Going away for a little while now.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 09, 2020, 06:59:04 PM
Trump's rhetoric, unfortunately, had a tendency to cause national discussions to turn caustic and combative.  It tended to bring out less than the best in others, even the current president-elect.  In the first debate he called the sitting president a "clown."  Now I'm not deliberately singling him out and excusing Trump, but it points out how easy it is for conversations to degenerate to levels they should not be. I could not imagine, even in a heated discussion, resorting to calling a sitting president a "clown."  But that is where our discourse has gone.

I know some are still fighting the Trump cause. Trump is still fighting it. I've accepted the fact that regardless of future legal battles Biden will remain the president-elect.  So I'm committed to seeing how that will now play out. I am trying hard not to simply attack Biden because he stands for some policies and ideologies to which I am opposed.  I realize we are not going to get everyone on the same page.  Never have.  But I'd like to see if it's possible for some sense of respectable discourse minus character attacks.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mj4 on November 09, 2020, 07:48:32 PM
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.

Tell me exactly where Evangelicals have asked the government for support, and I will answer your question. Be specific.

Okay. I’ll answer your question even though you haven’t bothered to answer mine. First, though, let me be clear about what I meant when I wrote that Norman Teigen’s characterization of Evangelicals was too general and prejudiced to serve any meaningful purpose. Think of how many Lutheran groups there are today. A lot, right? Would you ever be able to make a sweeping claim about our political views or motives as sweeping as Mr. Teigen has made regarding Evangelicals? I don’t think so. And Evangelicals are many times more diverse than Lutherans in America. Whatever Mr. Teigren’s accomplishments as an historian, they are not reflected in his claims regarding Evangelicals.

About the Franklin quote, Mr. Teigen correctly put it in the context of the religious tests that Massachusetts tried to impose on candidates for the House of Representatives during Franklin’s lifetime. He wasn’t referring to financial support for churches or their schools as far as I can tell. My guess, and I’d rather he clarify this himself, is that Mr. Teigen was making a connection between his claim that Evangelicals are ”power-hungry” and the attempt of Massachusetts to guarantee that only Christians served in the legislature.

But if you want to extrapolate the Franklin quote to apply to the debate about private school access to federal funds, then I can extrapolate too. Our ELCA advocates for all sorts of government actions and policies, much of it telling the government where we want it to spend taxpayer’s money. So, are ELCA Lutherans “power-hungry”? Are we refusing to confine ourselves to the work of the Lord? I don’t think so any more or less than the Evangelicals.

https://support.elca.org/site/SPageNavigator/elca_action_center.html?NONCE_TOKEN=23BB48C1CE79EF02C5B7920B7041F7D6&_ga=2.231511455.1676207686.1604950913-1852050956.1600195088 (https://support.elca.org/site/SPageNavigator/elca_action_center.html?NONCE_TOKEN=23BB48C1CE79EF02C5B7920B7041F7D6&_ga=2.231511455.1676207686.1604950913-1852050956.1600195088)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 09, 2020, 08:03:30 PM
Thank you, mj4, your sensible comment does a little bit to help me find some hope for this forum. (Although I wish I knew who you really are. At least you are not a  bile-and-oddity-spewing troll like a couple of other anonymous people here.)
We could have a discussion about the difference between ELCA involvement with government and what the evangelicals have done in recent years; but I haven't the heart or energy for it right now.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: DeHall1 on November 09, 2020, 08:50:15 PM
Mj4 writes to Mr. Teigen:
Your Franklin quote has merit, but it can be applied to just about any faith-based group in America, including our own ELCA.
I comment:
Tell me precisely when our ELCA ever asked for government support. Be precise. It seems to me that those who want government funds for their parish schools are the ones that Franklin warned us about.
Mr. Teigen Is a dedicated church member, a thoughtful man and a historian of some note. He does not deserve the kind of abuse he gets here from people like Julio and James and others. But then he is seen as “progressive,“ and therefore an approved target by certain people in this modest forum.
He is the one who first suggested that here we look forward in a positive way. We haven’t even tried. Especially a couple of us.
And those who want to make something of an error in typing are just strange.

Were the PPP loans government support?  They were, right?  Through the SBA?

The ELCA Federal Credit Union is now accepting PPP Loan Forgiveness Applications for congregations and ministries that applied for these PPP loans through the ELCA Federal Credit Union.   

Seems to me that they wouldn’t need to accept these loan forgiveness applications if ELCA congregations and ministries didn’t ask for them....
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 09, 2020, 09:35:26 PM
Meanwhile, sworn affidavits of postal irregularities in Pennsylvania ... Al Gore did not concede the 2000 election until sometime in December ... the union survived then .. we will survive now.

To doubt that there will be a peaceful transition on January 20 is simply hate speech.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 09, 2020, 09:50:59 PM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others? It might be nigh on impossible to keep the voter rolls perfectly clean, but it should be possible to make sure nobody thinks it worthwhile to mail in a ballot that wasn't theirs or to vote in the name of someone else. I'm tired of the Cook County "vote early, vote often" attitude that makes a joke out of voter fraud being a little too true for humor. And it is. In sports some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'," which is bad enough. But that is just sports. I want every person who knowingly cast an illegal ballot to be prosecuted. I think Trump, even if he is ultimately defeated, is one of the few politicians who would also think such prosecutions worthwhile, even they number only in the dozens.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pastor Ken Kimball on November 09, 2020, 10:18:45 PM
Pastor Austin,
I repeat myself "Try harder" and ignore them.  Scroll past them.  Don't read what they wrote.  And for heaven's sake, stop naming them.  You're giving them credit and pleasure they don't deserve.  There are enough solid and well reasoned posters who write substantial stuff that makes this forum worth reading.  Just read them.  Engage with them.  You're letting the trolls get to you.  Though I often disagree with what you write--and you're not always pleasant in your disagreement (and for that matter, neither am I), I still find substance in what you share, when you're not feeding the trolls or sharing your Trump-Derangement-Syndrome screeds.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: pearson on November 09, 2020, 10:41:42 PM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.

Tom Pearson
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 10, 2020, 12:44:25 AM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others? It might be nigh on impossible to keep the voter rolls perfectly clean, but it should be possible to make sure nobody thinks it worthwhile to mail in a ballot that wasn't theirs or to vote in the name of someone else. I'm tired of the Cook County "vote early, vote often" attitude that makes a joke out of voter fraud being a little too true for humor. And it is. In sports some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'," which is bad enough. But that is just sports. I want every person who knowingly cast an illegal ballot to be prosecuted. I think Trump, even if he is ultimately defeated, is one of the few politicians who would also think such prosecutions worthwhile, even they number only in the dozens.
The bitter truth is that even a single fraudulently cast vote has the potential to disenfranchise any one of us ... a rather sobering thought regardless of which political persuasion one is.

These court challenges are good for the union ... the union is better from the 2000 challenges .... it will also emerge better and stronger from these challenges.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 01:16:14 AM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 10, 2020, 06:56:49 AM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?

The will of the people is expressed in our Comstitution as well. And if they don’t like its expression there, they can try to change it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 06:59:53 AM
Attorney General Barr enters the unfounded allegations of fraud
in a way breaking Justice Department policies

From The New York Times today, my emphasis added
WASHINGTON — Attorney General William P. Barr, wading into President Trump’s unfounded accusations of widespread election irregularities, told federal prosecutors on Monday that they were allowed to investigate “specific allegations” of voter fraud before the results of the presidential race are certified.
   Mr. Barr’s authorization prompted the Justice Department official who oversees investigations of voter fraud, Richard Pilger, to step down from the post within hours, according to an email Mr. Pilger sent to colleagues that was obtained by The New York Times.
   Mr. Barr said he had authorized “specific instances” of investigative steps in some cases. He made clear in a carefully worded memo that prosecutors had the authority to investigate, but he warned that “specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries.”
   Mr. Barr’s directive ignored the Justice Department’s longstanding policies intended to keep law enforcement from affecting the outcome of an election. And it followed a move weeks before the election in which the department lifted a prohibition on voter fraud investigations before an election.
   “Given that voting in our current elections has now concluded, I authorize you to pursue substantial allegations of voting and vote tabulation irregularities prior to the certification of elections in your jurisdictions,” Mr. Barr wrote.
   A Justice Department official said that Mr. Barr had authorized scrutiny of allegations about ineligible voters in Nevada and backdated mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania. Republicans have circulated both claims in recent days without any evidence emerging to back them.
Mr. Barr did not write the memo at the direction of Mr. Trump, the White House or any Republican lawmakers, the official said.
   Mr. Barr has privately told department officials in the days since the election that any disputes should be resolved in court by the campaigns themselves, according to three people briefed on the conversations. He has said that he did not see massive fraud, and that most of the allegations of voter fraud were related to individual instances that did not point to a larger systemic problem, the people said.
   But critics of Mr. Barr immediately condemned the memo as a political act that undermined the Justice Department’s typical independence from the White House.
   “It would be problematic enough if Barr were reversing longstanding Justice Department guidance because of significant, substantiated claims of misconduct — that could presumably be handled at the local and state level,” said Stephen I. Vladeck, a professor at the University of Texas School of Law.
   “But to do so when there is no such evidence — and when the president’s clear strategy is to delegitimize the results of a proper election — is one of the more problematic acts of any attorney general in my lifetime,” Mr. Vladeck added.
   Mr. Pilger, a career prosecutor in the department’s Public Integrity Section who oversaw voting-fraud-related investigations, told colleagues he would move to a nonsupervisory role working on corruption prosecutions.
   “Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications,” he wrote, “I must regretfully resign from my role as director of the Election Crimes Branch.” A Justice Department spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a request for comment about Mr. Pilger’s message.


The complete story is at
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/barr-elections.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 10, 2020, 09:24:51 AM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 09:58:08 AM
I am reluctant to favor restrictions on social media, under the freedom of speech umbrella,  on the other hand, there are hate groups, there is disinformation and creeps who lie and lie and others who spread the lies. Is this a “public danger”? Perhaps it is, and perhaps there should be some way to put some restrictions on it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB. <emphasis added>
This apparent non dictionary restriction was mentioned here (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=ffcf3a6bb37ad0887cc0b7f1a3146493&topic=7379.msg491927#msg491927).

Check your dictionary definitions ... none restrict censorship to governmental entities ... in fact Wikipedia specifically extends censorship beyond the government ...
Quote
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.


How and why is it so important to restrict the term sensor to government only? Censorship is alive and well across society… Especially in social media as you have so well demonstrated?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 10:38:18 AM
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Weedon on November 10, 2020, 10:44:23 AM
Pastor Austin, are these these the same pollers whose predictions were shown to be laughably off on Election night and in the week’s prior? The same ones who disgraced themselves in the last election? Why bother paying any attention to pollers? It is quite manifestly an exercise in fiction.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Rev Geminn on November 10, 2020, 11:09:07 AM
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.

Are we really sure this is accurate?  I thought I read somewhere that in Florida this same demographic actually voted for Trump because of concerns about Biden's comments about another lock down.  I do not like what I am witnessing right now as it is very hard to figure out fact from fiction.

Peace,
Scott+
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 10, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.

Are we really sure this is accurate?  I thought I read somewhere that in Florida this same demographic actually voted for Trump because of concerns about Biden's comments about another lock down.  I do not like what I am witnessing right now as it is very hard to figure out fact from fiction.

Peace,
Scott+

What?  Don't you read the NY Times?

/sarcasm
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 11:25:40 AM
I would think the youngest cohort of voters would nearly always skew left/progressive. The things that lend themselves to conservatism-- marriage, children, home ownership-- haven't happened to them yet. The more established one becomes, the more one sees the value of securing what has been established.

If you look at married vs. single, you see married voters trending Trump, single voters trending Biden. Homeowners trending Trump, renters trending Biden. Parents trending Trump, childless trending Biden. Revolutions are always led by the young and/or unattached. The people with one year of experience at a company can push for massive change-- it doesn't hurt them and arguable increases their prospects. The people with 30 years in have little to gain and a lot to lose from massive change.

Notably, many of the things progressives are for are designed to give people the security that normally comes with being rooted without the attendant responsibilities that come with putting down roots. The Julia meme that the Obama administration put out encapsulated it well; liberals loved it, conservatives loathed it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: DeHall1 on November 10, 2020, 11:27:24 AM
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.

The poll I conducted show that young people, aged 18 to 29*, voted for Trump by a count of 2 to 1, that is  66% of them voted for Trump and 33% voted for Jorgensen.

*Granted, the poll was of my 3 children....But I can confirm that the results are accurate.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 11:34:27 AM
Today’s polls show that young people, aged 18 to 29, voted for Biden by a count of 2 to 1, that is, 66% of them voted for Biden and 33% voted for Trump. This bodes well for the future, especially At a time when his son has suggested he might want to run again.

Are we really sure this is accurate?  I thought I read somewhere that in Florida this same demographic actually voted for Trump because of concerns about Biden's comments about another lock down.  I do not like what I am witnessing right now as it is very hard to figure out fact from fiction.

Peace,
Scott+
What?  Don't you read the NY Times?
/sarcasm
Tragically what we may be seeing in the 20-29 year old demographics is the result of government school indoctrination.

A family member shared that while they and their beloved spouse were voting for Trump (yes, as the lesser of the evils) they were concerned that their children after eight years in government high school and university may have been duped.

While their kids were Lutheran educated prior to high school with active parental involvement, the highly formative years of high school and college where parental participation in the education process is naturally less was in the hands of the government indoctrinators.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 10, 2020, 11:37:01 AM
The Daily podcast  by The New York Times today features an in-depth discussion of polling in the Election just concluded.  Polling is not a joke.  Polling is not exact.   Polling cannot predict the future.  Please don't dismiss it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 10, 2020, 11:38:49 AM
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 11:46:18 AM
Peter writes:
I would think the youngest cohort of voters would nearly always skew left/progressive. The things that lend themselves to conservatism-- marriage, children, home ownership-- haven't happened to them yet. The more established one becomes, the more one sees the value of securing what has been established.
I muse:
And there are exceptions, many of them. Dave Dellenger comes to mind.

Peter writes:
If you look at married vs. single, you see married voters trending Trump, single voters trending Biden. Homeowners trending Trump, renters trending Biden. Parents trending Trump, childless trending Biden. Revolutions are always led by the young and/or unattached. The people with one year of experience at a company can push for massive change-- it doesn't hurt them and arguable increases their prospects. The people with 30 years in have little to gain and a lot to lose from massive change.
I muse:
So you do believe some polls? How do you choose, the ones that have results agreeing with your view of the world?

Peter:
Notably, many of the things progressives are for are designed to give people the security that normally comes with being rooted without the attendant responsibilities that come with putting down roots.
Me:
So the only thing that counts as “roots,” is marriage, family, children, home ownership? Two or three gazillion New Yorkers or other urban dwellers might disagree with you on that. Do you think paying a mortgage on a condominium, or handling increasing rents on your apartment, or dealing with the various implications of life in a complex and changing urban area means you are not putting down roots?
And do you think that as we get older we lose all our sense of dedication and concern, not to mention our integrity, that our sense of right and wrong or justice degrades so much so that we wouldn’t rattle the cage in any way? We just “go along” because we have, in your opinion, “a lot to lose”? That’s quite an insult to older people don’t you think?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 11:51:21 AM
The Daily podcast  by The New York Times today features an in-depth discussion of polling in the Election just concluded.  Polling is not a joke.  Polling is not exact.   Polling cannot predict the future.  Please don't dismiss it.
The NY Times sounds rather confused ... they say polls are not exact ... polls cannot predict the future... but then don’t dismiss polls ... polls are not a joke.

Why if polls are not exact ... if polls do not predict the future, should polling be considered any thing but a joke and simply irrelevant? What purpose according to the Times do they serve ??? Voter suppression?? Ok now we are getting some where


To the extent the indoctrination occurred in government schools by instructors employed by the government, yes government indoctrinators ... just ask parents why they choose private/home schooling for their children.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 11:58:07 AM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation.


Could it be that more of the conservative posts didn't pass the fact-checking scrutiny and were removed than the those posted in favor of Biden?


The fire against Facebook and Twitter, as I remember it, was about how much false information should they allow on their sites. That was one way that Russia meddled in the 2016 election: the spreading of false information on social media.


There are limits to freedom of speech as Wiki notes: Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."*

* van Mill, David (1 January 2016). Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2016 ed.).
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB. <emphasis added>
This apparent non dictionary restriction was mentioned here (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=182dc0e8b8638dde01af18c4c851b4d3&?PHPSESSID=ffcf3a6bb37ad0887cc0b7f1a3146493&topic=7379.msg491927#msg491927).

Check your dictionary definitions ... none restrict censorship to governmental entities ... in fact Wikipedia specifically extends censorship beyond the government ...
Quote
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.


How and why is it so important to restrict the term sensor to government only? Censorship is alive and well across society… Especially in social media as you have so well demonstrated?



Illegal speech, public communications, or other illegal information should be censored.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: DeHall1 on November 10, 2020, 12:03:53 PM
Evangelicals aren't giving up even though the election is over and. Joe Biden is the President Elect.  Evangelicals are politically power hungry and do not confine themselves to doing the work of the Lord,  This is my letter to NY Times which has been approved for distribution.   

"Your comment has been approved!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with The New York Times community.

Norman Teigen | Hopkins MN
In 1780 Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Richard Price on the subject of religious tests: "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." see the Library of America collection."

No one bothered to answer my question, so I'll ask again...
Are the Paycheck Protection Program loans (a Small Business Administration loan) a "call for the help of a Civil Power"?  If not, why not?

The SBA is a cabinet-level federal agency.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:08:42 PM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?

The will of the people is expressed in our Constitution as well. And if they don’t like its expression there, they can try to change it.


Where is there a conflict between this present election expressing the will of the people and the Constitution (which was approved by a vote of the people - at least those eligible to vote in 1787-1788)?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 10, 2020, 12:15:32 PM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation.


Could it be that more of the conservative posts didn't pass the fact-checking scrutiny and were removed than the those posted in favor of Biden?


The fire against Facebook and Twitter, as I remember it, was about how much false information should they allow on their sites. That was one way that Russia meddled in the 2016 election: the spreading of false information on social media.


There are limits to freedom of speech as Wiki notes: Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."*

* van Mill, David (1 January 2016). Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2016 ed.).

What is false information differs on who wants that information contained and who is reporting it. The NT Post article on Biden emails was the most celebrated. The reported emails did belong to Hunter Biden. Tony Bobulinski former business partner of Hunter, also offered corroborating information.  We can choose to decide none of this is newsworthy or relevant; we may differ on the significance of the facts, but there were facts that were suppressed. Tucker Carlson's interview was virtually ignored by the main networks. This is a free press issue.  We can ignore it, but we should trust our citizens to evaluate sources and information and come to their own conclusions.  I see this incident as a major concern with regard to the future of what is controlled, especially in social media venues.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 10, 2020, 12:17:49 PM
actually the Constitution was not strictly approved by a vote of "the people".  It was approved by conventions in each state.  The members of the conventions were elected in various ways in various states and tended to be the people at the top of the local political/economic hierarchies. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 10, 2020, 12:19:28 PM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?

The will of the people is expressed in our Constitution as well. And if they don’t like its expression there, they can try to change it.


Where is there a conflict between this present election expressing the will of the people and the Constitution (which was approved by a vote of the people - at least those eligible to vote in 1787-1788)?

There isn't.  The conflict resides in your insistence that the Constitution's provision of a college of electors is in conflict with your narrow and self-serving definition of "the will of the people."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 10, 2020, 12:20:49 PM
There are limits to freedom of speech as Wiki notes: Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."*

* van Mill, David (1 January 2016). Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2016 ed.).
Having been sued at one time under the banner of "libel and slander," I can attest that accusing one of such things and proving it are two very different things.  Sometimes people cry "libel and slander" because information is not supportive or even unflattering to the person who accuses. The press has to make these calls every day, of course, and we want them to be careful in what they report. But I'm concerned that "libel and slander" is quickly becoming a large umbrella under which we put all things distasteful or disagreeable to the offended party. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:20:57 PM
I would think the youngest cohort of voters would nearly always skew left/progressive. The things that lend themselves to conservatism-- marriage, children, home ownership-- haven't happened to them yet. The more established one becomes, the more one sees the value of securing what has been established.

If you look at married vs. single, you see married voters trending Trump, single voters trending Biden. Homeowners trending Trump, renters trending Biden. Parents trending Trump, childless trending Biden. Revolutions are always led by the young and/or unattached. The people with one year of experience at a company can push for massive change-- it doesn't hurt them and arguable increases their prospects. The people with 30 years in have little to gain and a lot to lose from massive change.

Notably, many of the things progressives are for are designed to give people the security that normally comes with being rooted without the attendant responsibilities that come with putting down roots. The Julia meme that the Obama administration put out encapsulated it well; liberals loved it, conservatives loathed it.


The opposite also happens. As conservatives age and go through more diverse experiences, their narrow view of the world can expand. Their certainties becomes less certain, etc. When I was a young 20-something traveling on gospel teams (1969-1972,) playing guitars and tambourines during worship service (and having a beard,) it was seldom the oldsters who complained about this new style of music in church. They had seen different fads come and go, they could live through another one. When there was opposition, is was usually the 30-50 age group. We heard that one man said before even coming into church, "If any of them has a beard and is playing guitar, I'm leaving." He left. At another church, where I was serving as pastor, I heard that when one of the ladies, sitting in a back row, complained about my beard, another lady, in the same age bracket, told her to look at the picture of Jesus that was hanging in the nave.


Although, being ALC, none of my seminary classmates would be in quite the same conservative camp as LCMS seminarians, but one thing that was stated at different alumni gatherings is how we were mellowing with age and years of ministry.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:31:22 PM

If one asks, "What is the will of the people?" the popular vote gives that..


Pr. Engebretson has already made a similar point elsewhere, but:

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of a circular argument.  What does it mean to be "the will of the people"?  Why, that's defined as "the winner of the popular vote."  And how shall we define the significance of "the winner of the popular vote"?  Well, that's defined as "the will of the people."  Why would anyone ever take such foolishness seriously?

"The will of the people" is a populist myth.


Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?

The will of the people is expressed in our Constitution as well. And if they don’t like its expression there, they can try to change it.


Where is there a conflict between this present election expressing the will of the people and the Constitution (which was approved by a vote of the people - at least those eligible to vote in 1787-1788)?

There isn't.  The conflict resides in your insistence that the Constitution's provision of a college of electors is in conflict with your narrow and self-serving definition of "the will of the people."


Good, because that wasn't the point I was trying to make (and apparently failed). I have no problem with the electoral college. That is the way we elect our president. I'm stating that in normal, parliamentary procedures, a majority vote expresses the will of the people who voted. That doesn't mean that a resolution will be approved. The first time the ELCA Churchwide Assembly voted on a full communion agreement with The Episcopal Church, a majority approved it, but to pass it required a 2/3 majority and it failed that by 6 votes.


On the other hand, the votes related in sexuality in 2009 all passed. The one on the Social Statement required 2/3 majority. Accompanying resolutions on ministry only required a majority. The votes expressed the will of the people - at least those who were the voting members at that assembly. If a vote had been taken of all the three million or so confirmed members at that time, the results might have been different, but that isn't how the ELCA makes decisions.


If one wants to know the "will of the people," it is usually done by having the people vote. Majority rule is not always the way decisions are made. Sometimes 2/3 majority or 60% or representatives or a select group of voting members who make decisions for the whole body.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 10, 2020, 12:33:06 PM
I like to read about relics and how pious believers felt that they might get closer to God if they possessed relics from the life of Jesus and the Saints.  A hilarious parody of this situation is Christopher Buckley 's 'The Relic Master' which I have as an audio book on my devices.  Now a relic from 45's  Presidency has been made available.  It's a Bible signed by (45).  This piece was in The New Yorker section. The Talk of the Town in the November 2, 2020 issue.  " 'The 5.5 x 8.5 in. King James version is a 1,002pp. edition published by Christian Art publishers, 2016.  The cover and spine are black faux calf, with titles on spine and cover in embossed gold.'  The [consignor's  blurb] mentions how Trump held up a Bible this past spring for his controversial photo op in front of St. John's Church. But this isn't that one.  The auction house's opening bid was five thousand dollars....[The consignor] said that if the Trump Bible had been the one from the St. John's photo op he'd have asked for a hundred grand, instead of merely five.  Because history.  He had urged the consignor to put the Bible up for sale before the election, in the event Trump loses."   

So, the takeaway is that Trump losing the election means that collectors will lose money on relics from his Presidency.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:33:17 PM
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 12:34:52 PM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation.


Could it be that more of the conservative posts didn't pass the fact-checking scrutiny and were removed than the those posted in favor of Biden?


The fire against Facebook and Twitter, as I remember it, was about how much false information should they allow on their sites. That was one way that Russia meddled in the 2016 election: the spreading of false information on social media.


There are limits to freedom of speech as Wiki notes: Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."*

* van Mill, David (1 January 2016). Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2016 ed.).

What is false information differs on who wants that information contained and who is reporting it. The NT Post article on Biden emails was the most celebrated. The reported emails did belong to Hunter Biden. Tony Bobulinski former business partner of Hunter, also offered corroborating information.  We can choose to decide none of this is newsworthy or relevant; we may differ on the significance of the facts, but there were facts that were suppressed. Tucker Carlson's interview was virtually ignored by the main networks. This is a free press issue.  We can ignore it, but we should trust our citizens to evaluate sources and information and come to their own conclusions.  I see this incident as a major concern with regard to the future of what is controlled, especially in social media venues.


I never saw the fact that it was Hunter Biden's laptop suppressed. It seems that what was found on it wasn't newsworthy nor criminal.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 10, 2020, 12:38:15 PM
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.

Government schools did not teach me to think for myself.  I learned that skill somewhat in college (in opposition to the professors, which was still something that was allowed back then), and mostly in law school.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 10, 2020, 12:38:50 PM
Big tech, those giants of the relatively new and emerging industries that are heavily invested in the internet, were known to have supported the Biden in a big way.  They came under a bit of fire during the campaign, especially on issues of how much information should be limited (although media often uses the word "censor," even though it is sometimes pointed out here that is more properly used of government). A notorious case involved the NY Post story on Biden.  There has been a push from some quarters to clamp down on so-called hate groups and misinformation.  But who defines that can be tricky.  I'm sure we all know at least one person who ended up in "Facebook jail" because they ran afoul of the algorithms on that platform designed to control information. From some perspectives it often feels rather arbitrary.  In other cases biased. I've dodged that since I am relatively apolitical on FB.

Trump utilized Twitter heavily during his tenure and I'm sure all campaigns relied greatly on social media this time around, especially during the pandemic when in-person approaches were limited. But in the latter part of his presidency Twitter started attaching warnings to his tweets.  It has appeared that Big Tech has been more supportive of liberal endeavors than that of conservative ones.  The heads of these companies, I'm sure most will agree, are not icons of the right.

It will be interesting, going forward, to see how the Biden administration deals with the internet and the various social media platforms that have become major vehicles for information and news.  Biden wants to build broadband infrastructure for communities that currently lack it, which I applaud, since I live in a very rural area. 

Under the Trump administration an antitrust lawsuit was launched against Google. I would think that antitrust efforts might appeal to both sides, but I'll be curious to see if he pushes hard against some of the folks who gave him so much political support leading up to the White House. 

Another area that might bring about some bipartisan cooperation, although for different reasons, is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law provides tech companies immunity from lawsuits over what people post to their sites. Yet it also leaves the choice to take down or flag content at the sole discretion of the companies. I'll be interested to see if Biden takes a lead here, or backs away.

I hope that Biden can show bipartisan interest in issues concerning Big Tech, especially the critical area of the free flow of information. Having these companies serve as a 'censors' deciding what is truth and what is fiction, removes from the reader/consumer the right and responsibility to do the hard work of their own investigation.


Could it be that more of the conservative posts didn't pass the fact-checking scrutiny and were removed than the those posted in favor of Biden?


The fire against Facebook and Twitter, as I remember it, was about how much false information should they allow on their sites. That was one way that Russia meddled in the 2016 election: the spreading of false information on social media.


There are limits to freedom of speech as Wiki notes: Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."*

* van Mill, David (1 January 2016). Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2016 ed.).

What is false information differs on who wants that information contained and who is reporting it. The NT Post article on Biden emails was the most celebrated. The reported emails did belong to Hunter Biden. Tony Bobulinski former business partner of Hunter, also offered corroborating information.  We can choose to decide none of this is newsworthy or relevant; we may differ on the significance of the facts, but there were facts that were suppressed. Tucker Carlson's interview was virtually ignored by the main networks. This is a free press issue.  We can ignore it, but we should trust our citizens to evaluate sources and information and come to their own conclusions.  I see this incident as a major concern with regard to the future of what is controlled, especially in social media venues.


I never saw the fact that it was Hunter Biden's laptop suppressed. It seems that what was found on it wasn't newsworthy nor criminal.

It was largely ignored by the major press.  FB and Twitter deliberately tried to limit the exposure of the NY Post article.  Now some may have found it lacking in being newsworthy and that nothing seemed out of order.  I, however, think there was credible material worthy of further investigation and hope that someone in the justice department is seeing that this is done.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 01:41:54 PM
A former assistant in the attorney generals office has said that the president’s refusal to deal with the transition presents a security risk for the nation because it deprives Biden of access to critical information and proper time to prepare for becoming the president.
He also said that the Attorney General Barr’s order to involve his office in the investigations about voter fraud breaks a 40 year policy of the attorney generals office, in which it is made clear that the office will not Investigate elections in ways that would suggest a political motive or cast doubt on the validity of the election. That would be determined after all aspects of the election are completed.
Finally the veteran attorney in the attorney general’s office who would normally deal with such things has resigned from his position, but not from the AG office, after Attorney General Barr’s actions, And by the way, Barr has said that he has not seen any evidence of serious voter fraud.
When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 01:50:39 PM
A former assistant in the attorney generals office has said that the president’s refusal to deal with the transition presents a security risk for the nation because it deprives Biden of access to critical information and proper time to prepare for becoming the president.
He also said that the Attorney General Barr’s order to involve his office in the investigations about voter fraud breaks a 40 year policy of the attorney generals office, in which it is made clear that the office will not Investigate elections in ways that would suggest a political motive or cast doubt on the validity of the election. That would be determined after all aspects of the election are completed.
Finally the veteran attorney in the attorney general’s office who would normally deal with such things has resigned from his position, but not from the AG office, after Attorney General Barr’s actions, And by the way, Barr has said that he has not seen any evidence of serious voter fraud.
When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.
No it isn’t. The system is working. No official timeline has been changed. If there is nothing to see, nothing will be seen. This country is not so frail that it can’t withstand scrutiny of elections. And if somehow it turns out that Trump won the election once the illegal votes are discounted, I’m sure you will be glad for further legal scrutiny rather than demanding Biden concede for the good of the nation.

I think the most interesting possibilities of significant voter fraud will not come from finding dead or non-existent voters. If fraud is there it will show up from statistical analysis of the results showing extremely suspicious data outside the realm of reasonable mathematical possibility.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 10, 2020, 01:53:34 PM
When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.

1. Al Gore didn't concede until more than 30 days after what used to be known as "Election Day".
2. "Conceding" is not in the Constitution.
3. "Conceding" does not end the lawful count of ballots, their certification by each State, or the action of the Electoral College.
4.  If Joe Biden won, it doesn't matter if Don Trump concedes or not.
5.  What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed.  In my opinion, absolute cooperation and transparency is essential, except that I don't think it is either wise or lawful to share the nuclear codes, provide open access to ongoing negotiations for hostage releases, to open the book on active military operations, to pick rather globally relevant examples, until we officially have a new President installed.

Other than that, do you personally know any honest Republicans or adults in the White House?

If you do, perhaps a worthwhile thing to do for the sake of not hurting the nation is to encourage them to act responsibly to carry out the law of the land including acts of civil mercy for the hurting.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mj4 on November 10, 2020, 02:21:13 PM
What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed. 

I recall a recent news report that suggested that the incoming Trump administration was ill prepared to receive the cooperation of the Obama administration. When President-elect Trump fired former Gov. Chris Christie during the transition, the whole process fell apart. Obama staffers would go to a scheduled transition meeting only to find out that there would be no Trump administration counterpart with whom to meet. It showed.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 10, 2020, 02:31:44 PM
I would think the youngest cohort of voters would nearly always skew left/progressive. The things that lend themselves to conservatism-- marriage, children, home ownership-- haven't happened to them yet. The more established one becomes, the more one sees the value of securing what has been established.

If you look at married vs. single, you see married voters trending Trump, single voters trending Biden. Homeowners trending Trump, renters trending Biden. Parents trending Trump, childless trending Biden. Revolutions are always led by the young and/or unattached. The people with one year of experience at a company can push for massive change-- it doesn't hurt them and arguable increases their prospects. The people with 30 years in have little to gain and a lot to lose from massive change.

Notably, many of the things progressives are for are designed to give people the security that normally comes with being rooted without the attendant responsibilities that come with putting down roots. The Julia meme that the Obama administration put out encapsulated it well; liberals loved it, conservatives loathed it.


The opposite also happens. As conservatives age and go through more diverse experiences, their narrow view of the world can expand. Their certainties becomes less certain, etc. When I was a young 20-something traveling on gospel teams (1969-1972,) playing guitars and tambourines during worship service (and having a beard,) it was seldom the oldsters who complained about this new style of music in church. They had seen different fads come and go, they could live through another one. When there was opposition, is was usually the 30-50 age group. We heard that one man said before even coming into church, "If any of them has a beard and is playing guitar, I'm leaving." He left. At another church, where I was serving as pastor, I heard that when one of the ladies, sitting in a back row, complained about my beard, another lady, in the same age bracket, told her to look at the picture of Jesus that was hanging in the nave.


Although, being ALC, none of my seminary classmates would be in quite the same conservative camp as LCMS seminarians, but one thing that was stated at different alumni gatherings is how we were mellowing with age and years of ministry.
I think that it is more accurate to say that the young generations, the late teens and twenty somethings tend to be more rigid in their thinking than those who have more experience and seen the need for more flexibility in thinking. That may mean that the young are more rigid in their progressive ideology or conservative ideology. The young also tend to be more impatient. It is from younger legislators and younger people that the demand for a rapid transition to a zero carbon economy has arisen. Do it now, no matter what the cost (they're used to others footing the cost for what they want) or the impracticalities involved. I remember back in the 90s (I think) that the standing joke was that the aging hippies from the 60s who were now in their 40s or 50s, early 60s were appalled at their super buttoned down, conservative teenaged children. Think Michael J. Fox in Family Ties. (It was also the aging boomers who insisted on contemporary worship "for the sake of the youth" who actually were rarely as interested as their boomer elders. The boomers insisted that the young wanted what the boomers had wanted when they were that age.)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 02:43:18 PM
Interesting Facebook post from a family member's former pastor

Quote
#IVoted2020
Facebook suggested I do this bit of virtue signaling. Lines were short in our polling place. Now if I could only get Facebook to distribute my devotional blog about the election...


Quote
People have been finding it through my secondary blog, "Missing My Post." (More people have read it than usual according to WordPress stats, truth be told). Also, it is already posted on both my Facebook page and the Grace page, but Facebook has refused to let me "boost" it, and they are suppressing its distribution, keeping it from showing up in my friends' newsfeeds. But thanks for the offer.


Censorship is alive and selective .. any more reasons to believe that it is not only government that seeks to control what we share with the world.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: pearson on November 10, 2020, 02:44:37 PM

Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?


It's what you said it is: "the passage of a resolution by a majority vote."  Nothing more.  "The will of the people" is simply a way of talking, a rhetorical flourish.  The phrase doesn't refer to anything real.  It's an exercise in linguistic opportunism.  Rousseau couldn't make the "general will" work, and neither has anyone else.

But suppose for a moment there is a "real thing" called "the will of the people."  Why should anyone believe that voting is what best represents "the will of the people"?  Why not think that this is most accurately reflected in the commercial behavior of a community?  Over the last generation or so, people have shopped more frequently, and in greater numbers, at WalMart than at neighborhood mom-and-pop stores.  So does WalMart represent "the will of the people"?  If not, why not?  Why doesn't commercial market behavior capture "the will of the people" more fairly than any sort of "voting" does?

Tom Pearson   

 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 10, 2020, 03:00:49 PM
A former assistant in the attorney generals office has said that the president’s refusal to deal with the transition presents a security risk for the nation because it deprives Biden of access to critical information and proper time to prepare for becoming the president.

Who said this? Give a name.

Since the New York Times identified Miles Taylor as a "senior administration official" then I think we should be highly suspicious of anonymous sources. "An assistant" can mean...anything.

He also said that the Attorney General Barr’s order to involve his office in the investigations about voter fraud breaks a 40 year policy of the attorney generals office, in which it is made clear that the office will not Investigate elections in ways that would suggest a political motive or cast doubt on the validity of the election. That would be determined after all aspects of the election are completed.

How does investigating possible voter fraud "suggest a political motive"? Are you saying that there couldn't be fraud on both sides?

If fraud was committed, shouldn't it be investigated?

And if it questions the validity of an election...so what? Is the alleged assistant arguing that as long as fraud gets the guy he wants elected, then its OK? If Trump were elected and there was evidence of fraud, he'd be OK with that, because, it would challenge the validity of the election? Are you arguing that? You seem to be.

Of course, you think LBJ ended his reelection campaign because he felt responsible for Vietnam...

Finally the veteran attorney in the attorney general’s office who would normally deal with such things has resigned from his position, but not from the AG office, after Attorney General Barr’s actions, And by the way, Barr has said that he has not seen any evidence of serious voter fraud.

How do we know any of this? You have an anonymous alleged assistant. I have a name for you: Miles Taylor, the New York Times "senior administration official."

BTW, if Barr hasn't seen any evidence of fraud, then he'll probably end any investigation quickly, won't he? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe he's doing this in order to put to rest any false allegations so that Biden isn't dogged by them?  Or is the 8th commandment beyond you?

When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.

Did you feel the same way about Al Gore? By his actions, he set a precedent. Or is it only Democrats that can act petulant?

Wait a minute. You've been reading Tom Friedman again. You know that Gore didn't really take a bullet for his country, right? Not even metaphorically (or "literally" as Biden would put it).

But then, I remember your view of LBJ and that explains a lot.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 03:01:21 PM

Don't you consider the passage of a resolution by a majority vote to be "the will of the people" who voted? If it isn't that, what is it?


It's what you said it is: "the passage of a resolution by a majority vote."  Nothing more.  "The will of the people" is simply a way of talking, a rhetorical flourish.  The phrase doesn't refer to anything real.  It's an exercise in linguistic opportunism.  Rousseau couldn't make the "general will" work, and neither has anyone else.

But suppose for a moment there is a "real thing" called "the will of the people."  Why should anyone believe that voting is what best represents "the will of the people"?  Why not think that this is most accurately reflected in the commercial behavior of a community?  Over the last generation or so, people have shopped more frequently, and in greater numbers, at WalMart than at neighborhood mom-and-pop stores.  So does WalMart represent "the will of the people"?  If not, why not?  Why doesn't commercial market behavior capture "the will of the people" more fairly than any sort of "voting" does?


"Will" is defined as "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action." A sub-meaning: "the thing that one desires or ordains." Voting is a way that a group makes decisions or to express the group's desire. Voting is the way groups often "ordain," that is, "order or decree something officially."


An issue could be that the definitions are about an individual's will. I'm talking about a group; treating it as a collective individual.


We do talk about people voting "with their feet" or "with their pocket books." Voting with voice, hands, cards, ballots, electronic devices are not the only way people vote.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 03:02:14 PM
A presidential election, Tom Pearson et al., is not about one thing. For some voters it may not even be about the president. The top of the ticket did poorly in places where a Republican Senator won election. We have all heard - even in this modest forum - of people who do not like Trump but voted because... yadda yadda yadda ... you know the reasons. And there are those who may not like the candidate at all but would rather gargle glass shards than vote for a D-D-D-Democrat.  >:(
And some may have voted for Biden not because they endorse everything he has said or even many things about the Democrats, but because they are angry, disgusted, fed up, annoyed, furious, embarrassed, worried and/or ready to hurl, toss their cookies, drive the porcelain bus, upchuck  - take your pick of the lists - because of Trump. I doubt we will be able to statistically sort out such things, but they are there.
The point now is for everyone to draw back, look ahead and help what is going to take us to the future.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 10, 2020, 03:24:12 PM
Among the many things on Biden's 'to do' list for the first 100 days is to see that the Equality Act is passed into law. This act would add sexual identity and gender identity to the list of protected groups in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This has been opposed by conservatives, in part, due to ramifications on faith-based institutions.  As one source notes: "If it passes, religiously affiliated schools and other faith-based organizations could face lawsuits over policies on gay, lesbian or transgender students, customers or employees."
https://www.deseret.com/2019/3/13/20668346/would-the-equality-act-harm-religious-freedom-here-s-what-you-need-to-know#rep-david-cicilline-d-r-i-center-speaks-during-a-news-conference-to-introduce-the-equality-act-a-comprehensive-nondiscrimination-bill-for-lgbt-rights-at-the-capitol-on-wednesday-march-13-2019-in-washington (https://www.deseret.com/2019/3/13/20668346/would-the-equality-act-harm-religious-freedom-here-s-what-you-need-to-know#rep-david-cicilline-d-r-i-center-speaks-during-a-news-conference-to-introduce-the-equality-act-a-comprehensive-nondiscrimination-bill-for-lgbt-rights-at-the-capitol-on-wednesday-march-13-2019-in-washington)

The university my youngest daughter currently attends, then, might face lawsuits and legal pressure to conform to standards contrary to its stated faith convictions. Likewise with the school and day care of our local Lutheran church to my west. 

I hope that if Biden feels compelled to push for this he at least listens to those in the faith community who feel strongly about sexual identity issues as moral issues of conscience.  I am not arguing here about its implementation in public institutions, although hiring practices by private businesses will come under attack, and that concerns me as well.  I am also concerned about the erasure of gender identity when it comes to sports and access to restrooms and locker rooms.  These concerns have been expressed elsewhere for some time. I hope that Biden listens to these concerns, or my second hope is that if he will not a thinner majority in the House and a Republican controlled Senate might slow it down and make others take these concerns seriously.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 03:31:47 PM
Jebutler, The Man from the attorney generals office that I cited is not anonymous. He appeared on television this morning, CNN I think, maybe MSNBC. You can look him up.
If you would read carefully you would see the issue is not “investigating voter fraud,” the issue is when that investigation is to be done.
The member of the AG staff who resigned rather than do Barr’s bidding on this matter is also known. His name is in the news. You can look him up.
But I sense you and I are heading for a black hole. You can look these things up. I’m not trying to change your mind.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 10, 2020, 03:47:31 PM
Jebutler, The Man from the attorney generals office that I cited is not anonymous. He appeared on television this morning, CNN I think, maybe MSNBC. You can look him up.
If you would read carefully you would see the issue is not “investigating voter fraud,” the issue is when that investigation is to be done.
The member of the AG staff who resigned rather than do Barr’s bidding on this matter is also known. His name is in the news. You can look him up.
But I sense you and I are heading for a black hole. You can look these things up. I’m not trying to change your mind.

Then if he is known, why didn't you use his name? You're the one who saw him. You're the one who gave his arguments. If you know who he is, then tell us.

It's shouldn't have to hunt down your sources. I didn't see him. I didn't watch him. I didn't cite him. You did.

And, lest I forget, everything these men said is their opinion.Like its your opinion that LBJ took responsibility for Vietnam and quit his reelection campaign. And they could be just as wrong as you are.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 10, 2020, 04:18:25 PM
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.

Government schools did not teach me to think for myself.  I learned that skill somewhat in college (in opposition to the professors, which was still something that was allowed back then), and mostly in law school.

I'm sorry for your experience. In my public high school, I had social studies teachers with a variety of political and philosophical positions. All of them stressed thinking for oneself, and all of them challenged us at many points, even when they agreed with us.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 10, 2020, 04:19:39 PM
I, however, think there was credible material worthy of further investigation and hope that someone in the justice department is seeing that this is done.

I suspect that many news organizations did do further investigation, and found it to be a big nothing burger.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 10, 2020, 04:22:04 PM
'James'...  "Government indoctrinators?"  Are you serious?  Come on, Man.


Teaching youth to think for themselves must be "government indoctrination." It might conflict with the indoctrination the parents have imposed on their children.

Government schools did not teach me to think for myself.  I learned that skill somewhat in college (in opposition to the professors, which was still something that was allowed back then), and mostly in law school.

I'm sorry for your experience. In my public high school, I had social studies teachers with a variety of political and philosophical positions. All of them stressed thinking for oneself, and all of them challenged us at many points, even when they agreed with us.

I don't want to presume your age, but it could be generational.  I'm 50, and by the time I was in high school, it was mostly teaching to the test.

I had great teachers.  But they did not excel in teaching independent thinking.  They taught lists for the most part. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 10, 2020, 04:28:03 PM

1. Al Gore didn't concede until more than 30 days after what used to be known as "Election Day".

5.  What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed. 

Well, actually, he did concede almost immediately, then retracted his concession. But the circumstance was quite difficult. It was a matter of a single state, an extremely small margin, and the issue wasn't so much alleged fraud but accurate and consistent counting of ballots. Remember "hanging chads"?

What is your evidence for saying that Trump "didn't get much" cooperation? This is a serious question. My recollection is that on the Trump side, things were chaotic; Chris Christie was his director of transition and Trump fired him a couple of days in. Far as I know, Obama made the appropriate office space and funding available. But it's pretty hard to cooperate with utter chaos.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 04:38:20 PM
And since the beginning, everyone with some savvy ha said there is no comparison between the Gore-Bush situation and this one.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 10, 2020, 04:42:14 PM
My wife and I won a relatively small jackpot.

We discussed what we were going to do with our winnings. My wife suggested we save it. I suggested that we buy a new pickup truck. We decided to vote on it. We did and remained deadlocked, 1-1, until a little past midnight when 139,000 votes came in for the pickup.

My wife is suspicious...
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Robert Johnson on November 10, 2020, 05:15:06 PM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?

There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 10, 2020, 05:21:17 PM
"Peace Train Derailed?"

"Biden calls for unity, but some fellow Democrats contradict message with spite toward Trump supporters"

"'You can't heal or reform the GOP who are now an extremist party,' Wajahat Ali, a contributing writer for the New York Times, said. 'They have to be broken, burned down and rebuilt. When Biden is in power treat them like the active threats to democracy they are. If those who committed crimes aren't punished then they will be more emboldened.'

...

Some have advocated for a 'truth and reconciliation commission' to go after those who have worked for the president. In fact, a group to catalog those individuals already exists, called the "Trump Accountability Project."

Michael Simon, who previously worked on the 2008 Obama campaign and in the former president's administration, pledged the project would provide a 'record of every staffer, appointee, donor, [endorses] and enabler.'

But some on the left attacked not only political types who might have worked with or for Trump and the Trump GOP, but also the president's rank-and-file supporters.

Billionaire Mark Cuban appeared to attempt to extend an olive branch to Trump supporters on Twitter, saying that "The overwhelming majority of Trump voters are NOT stupid, not racist, not anti-science... Mocking, gloating and holding grudges divides us further. We need to start talking again and come together as Americans."

'I won’t empathize with, support, forgive, understand, make amends for, reconcile with Trump supporters. Not a single one," tweeted Preston Mitchum, a liberal community organizer in Washington, D.C. "He was a proud white nationalist who proudly raised up many white supremacists. That’s who supported him. And I make no apologies for saying this.'

The disconnect between Biden's unity message and the anger toward Trump supporters from some in his party is a microcosm of the Democratic Party heading into 2021.

When filling his administration and setting priorities, Biden will have to balance his moderate campaign rhetoric and predilection for bipartisanship with a vocal left-wing of his party that wants to bring about "the most progressive agenda our country has ever seen," in the words of Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn." [emphasis added]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-calls-for-unity-but-some-fellow-democrats-contradict-message-with-spite-toward-trump-supporters

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 10, 2020, 05:49:55 PM
My wife and I won a relatively small jackpot.

We discussed what we were going to do with our winnings. My wife suggested we save it. I suggested that we buy a new pickup truck. We decided to vote on it. We did and remained deadlocked, 1-1, until a little past midnight when 139,000 votes came in for the pickup.

My wife is suspicious...


Someone will have to check the signatures and voter id numbers for those 139,000 votes.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 07:17:54 PM
My wife and I won a relatively small jackpot.

We discussed what we were going to do with our winnings. My wife suggested we save it. I suggested that we buy a new pickup truck. We decided to vote on it. We did and remained deadlocked, 1-1, until a little past midnight when 139,000 votes came in for the pickup.

My wife is suspicious...
Someone will have to check the signatures and voter id numbers for those 139,000 votes.
Unless you are in Pennsylvania ... seems they don’t care about signatures and legible post marks.🤭
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 07:41:09 PM
When will honest Republicans With access to the president or any adult who might still be in the White House or near the president tell him that this is over? His selfish petulance is actually hurting the nation.

1. Al Gore didn't concede until more than 30 days after what used to be known as "Election Day".
2. "Conceding" is not in the Constitution.
3. "Conceding" does not end the lawful count of ballots, their certification by each State, or the action of the Electoral College.
4.  If Joe Biden won, it doesn't matter if Don Trump concedes or not.
5.  What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed.  In my opinion, absolute cooperation and transparency is essential, except that I don't think it is either wise or lawful to share the nuclear codes, provide open access to ongoing negotiations for hostage releases, to open the book on active military operations, to pick rather globally relevant examples, until we officially have a new President installed.
6. The office of the “President Elect” is neither a constitutional office ... nor has it ever been previously used in the manner it is currently being used. In the past we have referred to the winner of the presidential election as the president elect’ ... never has there been the media hyped “Office of the President-elect been used.

Previously the media reported the news ... currently they are orchestrating the news.

The idea that this is hurting the nation is fictitious nonsense ... it would seem that it would advantageous to the Biden camp to actively encourage any and all reasonable investigation(s).

The Biden camp has nothing to loose to allow reasonable investigations to prove the validity of the election results.

As noted above, the concession came 30 days following the election ... and miraculously the country survived.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 07:52:21 PM
I think we will have to try to understand some of the truly (and valid) hard feelings that some will have about those who have enabled the president for the past four years. We don't have to declare them "right," we don't have to listen to all of them, but we have to understand why and how they feel the way they do.
Personally, were I in a position to encounter or employ or otherwise endorse someone who had been in the Trump administration, I would ask a ton of questions about what they did in that administration, why they did it and whether they agreed with everything they did. I do not think that is unreasonable.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 10, 2020, 08:01:14 PM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Local radio today had a caller who said his daughter had lived in Oregon for years… and voted in resident in Oregon this year… However to Oregon mail ballots were sent to her former out-of-state home where she grew up.

It was particularly distressing to find out that this man’s daughter has never lived at home since she had established her residency in Oregon. Why were ballots sent to an out-of-state address when she was clearly currently a resident of the state of Oregon?

I’m not doubting the outcome of the Oregon election… That’s part of the blue western wall ... but demonstrates why there is massive doubt about the blanket mailing of ballots.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 10, 2020, 08:14:55 PM
Personally, were I in a position to encounter or employ or otherwise endorse someone who had been in the Trump administration, I would ask a ton of questions about what they did in that administration, why they did it and whether they agreed with everything they did. I do not think that is unreasonable.
One needs to be careful here ... locally a few years ago there was great talk on ‘ban the box’ ... not allowing prospective employers to ask about previous criminal convictions.If employers are prohibited from asking about criminal history, why should job prospects be screened based on political affiliation?  At what point does the cancel culture become a discrimination culture?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 10, 2020, 08:16:55 PM
I think we will have to try to understand some of the truly (and valid) hard feelings that some will have about those who have enabled the president for the past four years. We don't have to declare them "right," we don't have to listen to all of them, but we have to understand why and how they feel the way they do.
Personally, were I in a position to encounter or employ or otherwise endorse someone who had been in the Trump administration, I would ask a ton of questions about what they did in that administration, why they did it and whether they agreed with everything they did. I do not think that is unreasonable.
Can you be equally understanding of the hard feelings that some will have about those who they think were unfair to President Trump during this last four years and to those who supported him? Or does your understanding and calls for understanding only go one way?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on November 10, 2020, 08:58:07 PM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?

There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.

I found this:

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud (https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud)

It doesn't speak to the current election but does show evidence of fraud and law enforcement addressing the problem.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 10, 2020, 09:20:25 PM
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Hmmmm... Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume that President Trump really won Texas.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 10, 2020, 09:32:12 PM
I think that it is more accurate to say that the young generations, the late teens and twenty somethings tend to be more rigid in their thinking than those who have more experience and seen the need for more flexibility in thinking. That may mean that the young are more rigid in their progressive ideology or conservative ideology. The young also tend to be more impatient. It is from younger legislators and younger people that the demand for a rapid transition to a zero carbon economy has arisen. Do it now, no matter what the cost (they're used to others footing the cost for what they want) or the impracticalities involved. I remember back in the 90s (I think) that the standing joke was that the aging hippies from the 60s who were now in their 40s or 50s, early 60s were appalled at their super buttoned down, conservative teenaged children. Think Michael J. Fox in Family Ties. (It was also the aging boomers who insisted on contemporary worship "for the sake of the youth" who actually were rarely as interested as their boomer elders. The boomers insisted that the young wanted what the boomers had wanted when they were that age.)
The comment that I have bolded is often true of the younger generation, but there is also a sense in which it is true of the older generations.  After all, America's recent economic prosperity has been paid for, at least in part, by passing on debt and (at least arguably) environmental costs to future generations. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 10:26:17 PM
From the Washington Post my emphasis added
Six states where President Trump has threatened to challenge his defeat continued their march toward declaring certified election results in the coming weeks, as his advisers privately acknowledged that President-elect Joe Biden’s official victory is less a question of “if” than “when.”
   Trump began the day tweeting about “BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE” as he and his allies touted unproven claims that fraud had tainted the election in Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Vice President Pence gave a presentation to Republican senators on Capitol Hill about new litigation expected in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia — imploring them to stick with the president, according to several Republicans in the room.
   But even some of the president’s most publicly pugilistic aides, including White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and informal adviser Corey Lewandowski, have said privately that they are concerned about the lawsuits’ chances for success unless more evidence surfaces, according to people familiar with their views.
   Trump met with advisers again Tuesday afternoon to discuss whether there is a path forward, said a person with knowledge of the discussions, who, like others interviewed for this report, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. The person said Trump plans to keep fighting but understands it is going to be difficult. “He is all over the place. It changes from hour to hour,” the person said.
   In the states, Democratic and some Republican officials said they have seen no evidence of fraud on a scale sufficient to overturn the results. “There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud,” one GOP official in Georgia said.
...
Later in the story
On Tuesday, Trump — who has not appeared in public in five days — continued to question the integrity of the count and refused to allow Biden’s transition officially to begin.
“WE ARE MAKING BIG PROGRESS. RESULTS START TO COME IN NEXT WEEK. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” he tweeted around 8:45 a.m.
The whole story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-challenges-state-count/2020/11/10/45148fac-2378-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html


Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 10:37:30 PM
From the Washington Post my emphasis added
Six states where President Trump has threatened to challenge his defeat continued their march toward declaring certified election results in the coming weeks, as his advisers privately acknowledged that President-elect Joe Biden’s official victory is less a question of “if” than “when.”
   Trump began the day tweeting about “BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE” as he and his allies touted unproven claims that fraud had tainted the election in Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Vice President Pence gave a presentation to Republican senators on Capitol Hill about new litigation expected in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Georgia — imploring them to stick with the president, according to several Republicans in the room.
   But even some of the president’s most publicly pugilistic aides, including White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and informal adviser Corey Lewandowski, have said privately that they are concerned about the lawsuits’ chances for success unless more evidence surfaces, according to people familiar with their views.
   Trump met with advisers again Tuesday afternoon to discuss whether there is a path forward, said a person with knowledge of the discussions, who, like others interviewed for this report, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. The person said Trump plans to keep fighting but understands it is going to be difficult. “He is all over the place. It changes from hour to hour,” the person said.
   In the states, Democratic and some Republican officials said they have seen no evidence of fraud on a scale sufficient to overturn the results. “There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud,” one GOP official in Georgia said.
...
Later in the story
On Tuesday, Trump — who has not appeared in public in five days — continued to question the integrity of the count and refused to allow Biden’s transition officially to begin.
“WE ARE MAKING BIG PROGRESS. RESULTS START TO COME IN NEXT WEEK. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” he tweeted around 8:45 a.m.
The whole story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-challenges-state-count/2020/11/10/45148fac-2378-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html
What does this change? Why does it matter? If you were confident that everything in this article were accurate, you wouldn’t waste your time posting it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 10:42:55 PM
Postal worker says he lied An affidavit about fraud
From the New York Times And almost every other news agency in the country
The Postal Service’s inspector general informed Congress on Tuesday that a worker who had made unfounded allegations of ballot corruption inside a facility in Erie, Pa., had disavowed his claims, which Republicans had amplified to suggest there was widespread fraud in Pennsylvania’s voting.
   Richard Hopkins, a post office employee in Erie, “completely” recanted allegations that a supervisor was “tampering with mail-in ballots” after investigators questioned him, the inspector general’s office said, according to the Democratic leadership of the House Oversight and Reform Committee.
   Mr. Hopkins had claimed in a sworn affidavit given to President Trump’s campaign that he overheard what he believed to be a discussion about the backdating of postmarks on ballots that arrived at the postal facility after Election Day.
   Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, who has urged Mr. Trump to continue to fight the results of the election, sent Mr. Hopkins’s affidavit to reporters along with a statement that read in part: “I will not allow credible allegations of voting irregularities or misconduct to be swept under the rug.” He later acknowledged in a television interview on Sunday that the claims he circulated were unverified.
   Mr. Hopkins could not be reached for comment over the weekend.
   The inspector general’s office told Congress that Mr. Hopkins had recanted his allegations on Monday but “did not explain why he signed a false affidavit,” according to the oversight committee’s staff.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 10:51:20 PM
Postal worker says he lied An affidavit about fraud
From the New York Times And almost every other news agency in the country
The Postal Service’s inspector general informed Congress on Tuesday that a worker who had made unfounded allegations of ballot corruption inside a facility in Erie, Pa., had disavowed his claims, which Republicans had amplified to suggest there was widespread fraud in Pennsylvania’s voting.
   Richard Hopkins, a post office employee in Erie, “completely” recanted allegations that a supervisor was “tampering with mail-in ballots” after investigators questioned him, the inspector general’s office said, according to the Democratic leadership of the House Oversight and Reform Committee.
   Mr. Hopkins had claimed in a sworn affidavit given to President Trump’s campaign that he overheard what he believed to be a discussion about the backdating of postmarks on ballots that arrived at the postal facility after Election Day.
   Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, who has urged Mr. Trump to continue to fight the results of the election, sent Mr. Hopkins’s affidavit to reporters along with a statement that read in part: “I will not allow credible allegations of voting irregularities or misconduct to be swept under the rug.” He later acknowledged in a television interview on Sunday that the claims he circulated were unverified.
   Mr. Hopkins could not be reached for comment over the weekend.
   The inspector general’s office told Congress that Mr. Hopkins had recanted his allegations on Monday but “did not explain why he signed a false affidavit,” according to the oversight committee’s staff.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2020/11/10/leaked-audio-shows-usps-ig-attempting-to-twist-a-whistleblowers-complaint-of-a-n2579867

A quote from the postal worker in question: "At the very moment I'm looking at an article written by The Washington Post. It says that I 'fabricated the allegations of ballot tampering.' I'm here to say that I did not recant my statements," Hopkins said. "That did not happen. It is not what happened."

He called on WaPo to recant their story, saying it's false.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 10:55:05 PM
Peter writes:
What does this change? Why does it matter? If you were confident that everything in this article were accurate, you wouldn’t waste your time posting it.
I comment:
That comment makes no sense. I am confident that everything in The article is accurate.
I am sharing some new accurate information with people likely not have ordinary access to it. You’re welcome.
Ditto for the article about the postal worker. His phony affidavit about voter fraud got wide distribution. It turns out it was a lie. And it turns out that Senator Graham was so eager to find a reason to support the president’s wild comments that he distributed the lie without verifying it himself. Shame on Graham.
Reports tonight also say that none of the lawsuits filed in multiple states by the president’s people have any remote possibility of changing the outcome of the election. So, we ask, why are they being filed?
The president meddling with the top levels of the Pentagon at this late stage in his term is also somewhat scary.
He tried to send the vice president out on a “voter fraud in Pennsylvania” mission far beneath the dignity of the vice president’s office. The Vice president did not go.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 10:55:51 PM
I'd very interested to hear people chime in with which sources they believe. Charles has the NYT and "almost every news agency in the country." I have Townhall (a conservative website) with an article that includes audio and transcriptions from Project Veritas.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 11:00:53 PM
Peter writes:
What does this change? Why does it matter? If you were confident that everything in this article were accurate, you wouldn’t waste your time posting it.
I comment:
That comment makes no sense. I am confident that everything in The article is accurate.
I am sharing some new accurate information with people likely not have ordinary access to it. You’re welcome.
Ditto for the article about the postal worker. His phony affidavit about voter fraud got wide distribution. It turns out it was a lie. And it turns out that Senator Graham was so eager to find a reason to support the president’s wild comments that he distributed the lie without verifying it himself. Shame on Graham.
Reports tonight also say that none of the lawsuits filed in multiple states by the president’s people have any remote possibility of changing the outcome of the election. So, we ask, why are they being filed?
The president meddling with the top levels of the Pentagon at this late stage in his term is also somewhat scary.
He tried to send the vice president out on a “voter fraud in Pennsylvania” mission far beneath the dignity of the vice president’s office. The Vice president did not go.
The comment makes perfect sense. You can't even answer basic questions like what does this change or why does it matter. Because the only way it changes anything and the only way it can matter is if it is not certain. You reflexively believe sources that are knowingly lying to you because it never enters your head that "almost every news agency in the country" might be a partisan source.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 11:01:22 PM
Peter, here’s the answer to the issue you just tried to raise.
Not long after the announcement, Project Veritas — a conservative group that researchers say has engaged in a coordinated disinformation campaign to delegitimize the voting process — released a video in which Mr. Hopkins said that he had not actually recanted his statements. (Washington Post)
You believe that Project Veritas outlet? Come on, you’re better than that.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 10, 2020, 11:05:35 PM
Reports tonight also say that none of the lawsuits filed in multiple states by the president’s people have any remote possibility of changing the outcome of the election. So, we ask, why are they being filed?
Perhaps it has to do with trying to cut out known or possible avenues for fraud next time around. Look at the group of state AGs joining together on a suit this week — they want SCOTUS to establish precedent to prevent election law from being circumvented or changed at the last minute, but instead to actually be followed as written and passed. Just because Trump is rather, uh, self-involved doesn't mean he can't or won't play the long game for his allies.

Peter is also quite correct in his most recent post.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 11:11:21 PM
Peter, here’s the answer to the issue you just tried to raise.
Not long after the announcement, Project Veritas — a conservative group that researchers say has engaged in a coordinated disinformation campaign to delegitimize the voting process — released a video in which Mr. Hopkins said that he had not actually recanted his statements. (Washington Post)
You believe that Project Veritas outlet? Come on, you’re better than that.
"Researchers say..." What researchers? On what evidence? There is video of the guy saying he is looking at the WaPo article that says he recanted and calling it a lie.

Everything Project Veritas has done that I know of has been completely vindicated, starting with their undercover sting of Planned Parenthood and their trafficking in fetal body parts. You have nothing left in your argument tank but ad hominem-- you believe THEM? But they're CRAZY! Even when they show you video evidence, it can't be real because "researchers say" they're on a disinformation campaign, apparently up to and including warping the laws of physics to make it look and sound as though someone is saying he didn't recant when he obviously meant he did recant. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2020, 11:17:03 PM
Peter:
You can't even answer basic questions like what does this change or why does it matter. Because the only way it changes anything and the only way it can matter is if it is not certain. You reflexively believe sources that are knowingly lying to you because it never enters your head that "almost every news agency in the country" might be a partisan source.
Me:
Peter, your reflexive defense of Him is really rather surprising. So I’m not going down your black rabbit hole.
Here is what I believe to be true and proven to be true.
   -Biden won the election.
   -He will be the next president.
   -There was no massive order fraud.
   -The election was fair, save for those parts of the country where the Republicans tried to make it hard for certain people to vote.
   Do you, Peter, deny  that those things are true?
Here is what I suspect is true, but do not yet have proof.
   -The president is acting as if he were seriously disturbed mentally in recent days.
   -His childish actions regarding the transition are a serious dereliction of duty and an actual threat to the security of the country.
And, by the way, what is he doing this past week to actually be the president? When is he doing his real job?
P.S. And my last peek down the dark rabbit hole:
You’ll have to ask the postmaster inspector general about the veracity of that affidavit. He’s the one who reported to Congress that it was a fraud. Do you believe a politically biased ultra-right-wing newsletter rather than the postmaster Inspector General? You probably do.


Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 10, 2020, 11:32:47 PM
Peter:
You can't even answer basic questions like what does this change or why does it matter. Because the only way it changes anything and the only way it can matter is if it is not certain. You reflexively believe sources that are knowingly lying to you because it never enters your head that "almost every news agency in the country" might be a partisan source.
Me:
Peter, your reflexive defense of Him is really rather surprising. So I’m not going down your black rabbit hole.
Here is what I believe to be true and proven to be true.
   -Biden won the election.
   -He will be the next president.
   -There was no massive order fraud.
   -The election was fair, save for those parts of the country where the Republicans tried to make it hard for certain people to vote.
   Do you, Peter, deny  that those things are true?
Here is what I suspect is true, but do not yet have proof.
   -The president is acting as if he were seriously disturbed mentally in recent days.
   -His childish actions regarding the transition are a serious dereliction of duty and an actual threat to the security of the country.
And, by the way, what is he doing this past week to actually be the president? When is he doing his real job?
P.S. And my last peek down the dark rabbit hole:
You’ll have to ask the postmaster inspector general about the veracity of that affidavit. He’s the one who reported to Congress that it was a fraud. Do you believe a politically biased ultra-right-wing newsletter rather than the postmaster Inspector General? You probably do.
I think Biden is favored to win the election. I think there were many fraudulent votes cast. I think if it was overall a fair election, then it involved some spectacular statistical anomalies. I think there is a lot of disinformation floating around on both sides. I do not believe what I read at Townhall simply because they say it. Nor do I discount it simply because they say it the way you do. I evaluate the evidence they present and look at what seems likely. For that reason, I tend to trust Project Veritas because their m.o. us to go under cover and get real recordings, which they then share. That having been said, i would be surprised (but not stunned) if it turns out Trump won the election.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 01:42:54 AM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Local radio today had a caller who said his daughter had lived in Oregon for years… and voted in resident in Oregon this year… However to Oregon mail ballots were sent to her former out-of-state home where she grew up.

It was particularly distressing to find out that this man’s daughter has never lived at home since she had established her residency in Oregon. Why were ballots sent to an out-of-state address when she was clearly currently a resident of the state of Oregon?

I’m not doubting the outcome of the Oregon election… That’s part of the blue western wall ... but demonstrates why there is massive doubt about the blanket mailing of ballots.


Our son has lived in Washington for a couple of years. He hasn't updated his driver's license. It still shows him living in Arizona. We received a number of pieces of mail for him regarding the election. Had she gotten an Oregon Driver's License? Had she registered to vote in Oregon with an Oregon ID number? There's not enough information to make an informed decision about this lapse; except mailing or receiving a mail-in ballot at the wrong address is not a crime. Trying to cast two or more ballots is.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 11, 2020, 01:53:11 AM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Local radio today had a caller who said his daughter had lived in Oregon for years… and voted in resident in Oregon this year… However to Oregon mail ballots were sent to her former out-of-state home where she grew up.

It was particularly distressing to find out that this man’s daughter has never lived at home since she had established her residency in Oregon. Why were ballots sent to an out-of-state address when she was clearly currently a resident of the state of Oregon?

I’m not doubting the outcome of the Oregon election… That’s part of the blue western wall ... but demonstrates why there is massive doubt about the blanket mailing of ballots.


Our son has lived in Washington for a couple of years. He hasn't updated his driver's license. It still shows him living in Arizona. We received a number of pieces of mail for him regarding the election. Had she gotten an Oregon Driver's License? Had she registered to vote in Oregon with an Oregon ID number? There's not enough information to make an informed decision about this lapse; except mailing or receiving a mail-in ballot at the wrong address is not a crime. Trying to cast two or more ballots is.
Twas rather simple ... once she moved to Oregon,  she remained in Oregon, she registered to vote in Oregon and received a ballot and voted this year in Oregon.

Why were ballots mailed to her both at her Oregon residence and 2 ballots to a out of state address where never lived after registering to vote in Oregon?

Biggest question ... why were ballots mailed to two addresses ... one address alone receiving 2 ballots?

Who in their right mind would mail multiple ballots to the same voter ... at multiple addresses?

What happened to one voter one ballot?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 01:58:36 AM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Local radio today had a caller who said his daughter had lived in Oregon for years… and voted in resident in Oregon this year… However to Oregon mail ballots were sent to her former out-of-state home where she grew up.

It was particularly distressing to find out that this man’s daughter has never lived at home since she had established her residency in Oregon. Why were ballots sent to an out-of-state address when she was clearly currently a resident of the state of Oregon?

I’m not doubting the outcome of the Oregon election… That’s part of the blue western wall ... but demonstrates why there is massive doubt about the blanket mailing of ballots.


Our son has lived in Washington for a couple of years. He hasn't updated his driver's license. It still shows him living in Arizona. We received a number of pieces of mail for him regarding the election. Had she gotten an Oregon Driver's License? Had she registered to vote in Oregon with an Oregon ID number? There's not enough information to make an informed decision about this lapse; except mailing or receiving a mail-in ballot at the wrong address is not a crime. Trying to cast two or more ballots is.
Twas rather simple ... once she moved to Oregon,  she remained in Oregon, she registered to vote in Oregon and received a ballot and voted this year in Oregon.

Why were ballots mailed to her both at her Oregon residence and 2 ballots to a out of state address where never lived after registering to vote in Oregon?

Biggest question ... why were ballots mailed to two addresses ... one address alone receiving 2 ballots?

Who in their right mind would mail multiple ballots to the same voter ... at multiple addresses?

What happened to one voter one ballot?


It's actually one voter one vote. There's nothing wrong about making sure that all registered voters get a ballot, even if that might result in sending ballots to a second address that's on file (but shouldn't be). Fraud happens when the person tries to submit two or more ballots. Honest people would inform the voting officials about the mistake so that it wouldn't happen next time.


We had to tell a poll taker who asked about our son, who had lived with us, that he was no longer in the state. She made a note of that to take him off their list of Arizona voters.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 11, 2020, 02:30:15 AM
One positive I see coming from the legal challenges is that they shine the spotlight on a perennial problem. They find hundreds of dead people voted. Okay. Not going to change the result in any state. But who mailed those envelopes? Who filled in the ballots? It is a felony to cast a fraudulent vote. What is being done to find the person who deliberately mailed in an illegal vote and to make sure they pay a big enough price to deter others?
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Local radio today had a caller who said his daughter had lived in Oregon for years… and voted in resident in Oregon this year… However to Oregon mail ballots were sent to her former out-of-state home where she grew up.

It was particularly distressing to find out that this man’s daughter has never lived at home since she had established her residency in Oregon. Why were ballots sent to an out-of-state address when she was clearly currently a resident of the state of Oregon?

I’m not doubting the outcome of the Oregon election… That’s part of the blue western wall ... but demonstrates why there is massive doubt about the blanket mailing of ballots.


Our son has lived in Washington for a couple of years. He hasn't updated his driver's license. It still shows him living in Arizona. We received a number of pieces of mail for him regarding the election. Had she gotten an Oregon Driver's License? Had she registered to vote in Oregon with an Oregon ID number? There's not enough information to make an informed decision about this lapse; except mailing or receiving a mail-in ballot at the wrong address is not a crime. Trying to cast two or more ballots is.
Twas rather simple ... once she moved to Oregon,  she remained in Oregon, she registered to vote in Oregon and received a ballot and voted this year in Oregon.

Why were ballots mailed to her both at her Oregon residence and 2 ballots to a out of state address where never lived after registering to vote in Oregon?

Biggest question ... why were ballots mailed to two addresses ... one address alone receiving 2 ballots?

Who in their right mind would mail multiple ballots to the same voter ... at multiple addresses?

What happened to one voter one ballot?
It's actually one voter one vote. There's nothing wrong about making sure that all registered voters get a ballot, even if that might result in sending ballots to a second address that's on file (but shouldn't be). Fraud happens when the person tries to submit two or more ballots. Honest people would inform the voting officials about the mistake so that it wouldn't happen next time.

We had to tell a poll taker who asked about our son, who had lived with us, that he was no longer in the state. She made a note of that to take him off their list of Arizona voters.
Here we meet an impasse ... I believe trust but verify ... one person, one ballot, one vote. 

The idea that more than one ballot can be routinely mailed to a single voter is entirely mind boggling from a control standpoint.  But then no doubt you will some how believe that photo positive photo ID for in person voting suppressed voting ... the idea that one can function today without a photo id is troubling as well.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 05:01:16 AM
Brian, our daughter received "official," that is New Jersey state and local governmental information, including postcards about voting (polling places, dates, etc.) for five years after she left New Jersey, settled in Minnesota and had registered to vote there. She had to send a notarized request to be removed, or she would have been removed after a certain number of years and required to re-register if she wanted to vote.
Now those were the days before widespread mail-in voting was possible, but of course absentee voting - which she had done during her college years in Minnesota - was possible.
Beloved Spouse, a long-time member of the League of Women Voters and two-term president of the local New Jersey chapter, wondered about the possibility of voting in more than one venue. Through the national League of Women Voters we learned that most states had various safeguards in place to keep the voting rolls "clean." And remember that states manage and run elections, so may handle it different ways.
Some bottom line conclusions.
From then.
-If it were possible for some people to vote in two venues, it would only be for an incredibly small number of persons. Vote in Massachusetts at 9 am., and dash across the border to New Hampshire and vote again at 3 p.m., that sort of thing.
-Almost all states have some ways of removing inactive - that is, moved or deceased - voters from the list of registered voters. And if the removal is not complete, the possibility of an organized attempt to use those voters to swing an election is small.
Today.
Mail-in voting today has brought in more safeguards, we were told by workers at the polling place where Beloved Spouse and I cast our ballot.
We had requested mail-in ballots. But before they arrived, we decided to vote in person because Minnesota has the possibility of early voting, and we knew that the post office was being manipulated to prevent ballots from being received on time.
At the polling place we filled out essentially the same form we had used to request the mail-in ballot. We asked what we should do when our ballots arrived in the mail, as they were to be sent out three days hence.
"Just tear them up and throw them away," the poll worker said.
"Can't cast them anyway?" I said, making it clear I was joking.
The poll worker said the envelope she had just given me had a bar codes on it. I would put my ballot in that envelope and that is what would go in the ballot box. The counters would scan the bar code on the envelope, which would then mean that my vote had been cast, just as if I had signed in at the polling place on election day.
The mail-in ballot would also have a bar code. Should I try to cast it, the machine would reject it because I had already voted. A complex system built into the technology kept anyone from knowing how I had voted in early voting, it only told them that I had voted.
And there was a way we could go online and find out - using our state ID, or other official ID number - that our votes had been received and tallied (which of course we did).
My conclusions, assuming most states have similar protections
-Mail-in voting can be protected much easier than in person voting.
-It would be extremely difficult to "stuff the ballot" box through mail-in voting
-Those who want to do nasty things might have ways of preventing mailed ballots from reaching counters, although it would be hard to do that on a massive scale. And I could find out if my ballot had not reached the counters.
So, folks...
It remains my not-so-humble opinion that the possibility of massive voter fraud today would be difficult. It would certainly be very hard to swing a vote by many hundreds, let alone thousands and thousands of phony ballots.
And we all know, since we read a variety of news sources, that no one today has provide any evidence or even hints of evidence that there were tens of thousands of invalid votes cast in any state. Some legal challenges to this year's presidential voting have already been laughed out of court because of this.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 07:17:05 AM
“Some of these woke people need to take a nap." James Carville after down-ballot Dem losses.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/james-carville-says-woke-people-need-to-take-nap-after-down-ballot-democratic-losses
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 08:48:58 AM
The Times contacted 50 states seeking information from officials Republican and Democrat about evidence of significant voter fraud that would affect the count. No one reported any. At this point in previous elections, even before all states had “‘formally” certified, help was offered the one whom everyone knew would be the new president.
I ask Trump defenders here:
Do you still support the filing of lawsuits, the refusal to fund the President-Elect’s transition team and denying the President-Elect access to security briefings and appropriate help from the State Department? Do you support Trump’s “order” to government agencies to get ready for his February budget? If so, why?

P.S to Mr. Garner:
I understand the feelings of those who think the president was unfairly treated. I disagree with them and hope they will recover soon. I won’t and can’t change how they feel. I can ask them, for the good of the country, to work fairly with those now in office, not - if they think this is the situation - “returning evil for evil”. (Romans 12:17)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2020, 09:20:24 AM
Although not impacting the election is a direct way, I find the Supreme Court deliberations on the ACA interesting in light of Democratic fears that conservative members in that chamber are going to undo everything held dear to progressives. Just before the election one last justice was appointed to replace RBG, and given her conservative credentials the talk then started of 'packing the court' to enlarge it as to restore a more liberal balance, or influence.

Yet in the current arguments it appears that although the mandate to buy insurance could be removed or struck down, that does not mean that the justices are going to dissolve the ACA altogether.  One argument is that Congress had the opportunity to strike down the ACA in its entirety and did not, signalling to the court - or some members of it - that they were looking to the court itself to do that.  The justices, in a move that reflects the conservative values that supported them, want to be justices, not legislators. 

It may not be seen in any way as a victory for Republicans, but I like the reasoning so far in that the court wishes to adjudicate, not legislate, something the court in previous times has not always been inclined to do.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 09:28:48 AM
I think we will have to try to understand some of the truly (and valid) hard feelings that some will have about those who have enabled the president for the past four years. We don't have to declare them "right," we don't have to listen to all of them, but we have to understand why and how they feel the way they do.
Personally, were I in a position to encounter or employ or otherwise endorse someone who had been in the Trump administration, I would ask a ton of questions about what they did in that administration, why they did it and whether they agreed with everything they did. I do not think that is unreasonable.
I can not help but marvel at how much stigmatizing those who were a part of or supported the previous duly elected administration will do to foster reconciliation and bringing this country together. Asking such people a ton of questions and treating them with suspicion will naturally foster good will and cooperation with the incoming administration and make those whose candidates lost in the last election feel that they are a valued part of this nation rather than conquered people who will be only grudgingly granted a place in the nation. After all, they will need to be rehabilitated. After all, they will need to recover from their errors.


P.S to Mr. Garner:
I understand the feelings of those who think the president was unfairly treated. I disagree with them and hope they will recover soon. I won’t and can’t change how they feel. I can ask them, for the good of the country, to work fairly with those now in office, not - if they think this is the situation - “returning evil for evil”. (Romans 12:17)


Presumptive President Elect Biden may be ready to bring the nation together in peace and unity but I fear some of his devotees, even on this forum, are not so ready to let go of their grievances.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 09:36:15 AM
After all, they will need to be rehabilitated. After all, they will need to recover from their errors.

Re-education? Perhaps through labor? "They have to be broken, burned down and rebuilt. When Biden is in power treat them like the active threats to democracy they are. If those who committed crimes aren't punished then they will be more emboldened."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor

After all, the incoming administration has some familiarity with China and its systems.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 09:44:16 AM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 11, 2020, 09:50:09 AM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?


Maybe if you would list some of the "ton" of questions you want answered it would help the discussion.  Frankly this "cancel culture" stuff is way too Nazi like for my taste.  The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't quietly admire the Chinese communist treatment of Uighurs and others including our Christian brothers and sisters.  You have called Trump "authoritarian" and "dictatorial"--yet he has never called for such behavior insofar as I am aware. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 09:55:50 AM
Right now, Pastor Fienen, I am ready to set aside past grievances, for he will be out of office soon.
But we have some current grievances.
-the filing of frivolous lawsuits,
-the refusal to fund the President-Elect’s transition team and denying the President-Elect access to security briefings and appropriate help from the State Department
-idiotic “orders” to government agencies to get ready for his February budget
-setting aside all care for and work on combatting the virus
-tweeting lies and nonsense
Let’s focus on though.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 10:00:22 AM
Pastor Culler:
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't quietly admire the Chinese communist treatment of Uighurs and others including our Christian brothers and sisters.  You have called Trump "authoritarian" and "dictatorial"--yet he has never called for such behavior insofar as I am aware.
Me:
I can’t or won’t try to change your what I consider consider your erroneous fear of the left or answer your apparently knee-shaking fear of the left.
But you don’t have to go as far as the Chinese have gone in order to be dictatorial or authoritarian or even totalitarian.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 10:09:15 AM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?
So, Seminex is not quite forgotten yet.


You make the comparison of those who walked out of the seminary which had called them to teach or in which they had enrolled in defiance of the administration that had been properly and legally established to govern that institution and in defiance of the the church body and its teachings which had established the seminary and administered it and the properly elected administration of that church body to form a rogue seminary that claimed governance independent of the church body and sought to prepare pastors for that church body independent of the church body and not subject to that church body's supervision to those who worked for the Trump administration.

Those who attended Seminex (and those who taught there) were in open defiance of and rebellion against those who had been duly placed in authority over them. You may or may not agree that rebellion was justified and necessary but that is a different question. Surely, after such rebellion questions are in order.

Are you claiming that Trump was not the legitimate president or that he was not legally elected to that office and that those who worked in that administration were working for an illegitimate government? Do you claim that those who worked in or supported his administration were in rebellion against the duly authorized administration of our nation?

Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 10:32:23 AM
Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?

Keep in mind, Dan, that asking a ton of questions was in the context of encounter or employ in general, not only in the context of administration employment. Illegal? Perhaps not on a federal level, but it certainly could trigger a discrimination claim based upon a protected trait, like race or religion. And it might violate some state laws.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 10:36:07 AM
Right now, Pastor Fienen, I am ready to set aside past grievances, for he will be out of office soon.
But we have some current grievances.
-the filing of frivolous lawsuits,
-the refusal to fund the President-Elect’s transition team and denying the President-Elect access to security briefings and appropriate help from the State Department
-idiotic “orders” to government agencies to get ready for his February budget
-setting aside all care for and work on combatting the virus
-tweeting lies and nonsense
Let’s focus on though.
What work on combatting the virus were you hoping for? The kind the Dems have been demonstrating lately?

You use words like frivolous, nonsense, idiotic, and appropriate/inappropriate as though there is wide agreement about them, which would make them legitimate grievances. There is not wide agreement about the application of those words, which means you have a disagreement, not a grievance.

Trump could shoot someone in the middle of Park Avenue, and if Project Veritas had the video but WaPo's experts said it didn't happen, you would say it didn't happen. You need to expose yourself with a hint of an open mind to people who genuinely disagree with you. In these precincts, you do not. You already know what is what, and if you are proven wrong on one thing you just move on to talk about something else without changing your mind.

Maybe the 40+ GOP senators who have yet to congratulate Biden aren't all stupid partisan hacks. Maybe the President of Mexico isn't a fool for saying he will wait to see who wins. There is no real reason not to let this play out according to the established timeline. If Biden wins as expected, he will enter office with the advantage of having given his opponents their day in court and headed off potential complaints of illegitimacy.     
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 10:45:57 AM
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/11/11/easy-breezy_biden_ignores_transition_drama__144639.html

I think this article should help everyone simmer down about the transition. Biden seems unconcerned. As does Trump. Trump is clearly playing it as though he knows something most people don't. If he is bluffing just for the sake of leaving open the possibility of a 2024 rematch, so be it. If not, so be it. He can't hold his cards forever; there is a deadline for laying the cards on the table. So wait for the deadline.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 10:56:51 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?
Me:
Yes. Whatever questions they wanted to ask. And I'll bet they did.
Look, folks, we can drill down and needle-ize and nit-pick this until Harry gets a pup, but it will all be irrelevant chatter.
Let's focus on reality. On today. On looking towards tomorrow. Is that so hard?
Here is the deal today. Biden is the President-Elect. He has won the election. Nothing is likely to change that.
So I ask again:
Why refuse to fund the transition team?
Why issue orders to government agencies to get ready for Trump's budget in February?
Why are Republican leaders mostly silent? (Do they support the president's spreading of lies or do they think that being silent keeps them from getting schmutz on their shoes?)
Why are frivolous lawsuits being filed, some by third-level lawyers as just machinery-clogging harassment?
Why try to reorganize the Pentagon at this stage?
Why does He tweet more and more lies?
Where are the words from the sensible Republicans or people around him who are not under his spell?
Can we acknowledge the non-confrontational way that Biden is progressing? He is moving ahead - as much as he can - and not even mentioning the warped utterings from the White House, save for a reference to some things being "embarrassing." No trashing of Trump. No whining about his transition being more difficult. Just trying to get to work. The first focus - on the virus. (When is the last time you heard Trump speak of combatting the virus?) Then talks with overseas allies.
We have in one place a man defeated for a second term, whining and mewling in the White House and issuing strange and meaningless orders and lies; and in the other place a President-Elect ignoring this childish behavior of his predecessor and trying to get to work.
You may not like what some of that "work" might be. OK. Debate, argue, legislate, compromise.
But what does anyone - the Republican Party, cabinet members, Vice President Pence, presidential aides, political appointees, not to mention the nation as a whole get from the mess the President is creating?
You tell me. Peter is 1/8th right. We have to wait. But it would be very wrong for the nation as a whole to ignore what is going down these at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 11, 2020, 10:59:42 AM
Even given the awaited certification of a new administration, those actually concerned about the health and functioning of our democracy and ease of voting would be the first to applaud a bi-partisan post-election check-up by elected folk to evaluate the way things worked (not how people voted, not who won or lost) in each jurisdiction and nation-wide to help improve accuracy and timeliness, as well as to disprove the claims about fraudulent voting.

Simply stating that there is no need to have a thorough and transparent post-election evaluation by proper authorities because your guy or my gal won an election is a bit like not having a health check-up or not tuning up your car's engine and checking everything out at reasonable intervals because my body and my car got me where I wanted to go all Summer long.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 11, 2020, 11:03:34 AM

1. Al Gore didn't concede until more than 30 days after what used to be known as "Election Day".

5.  What is the history of transition cooperation?  Trump didn't get much of it in 2016-17 from the outgoing Administration, and it showed. 

Well, actually, he did concede almost immediately, then retracted his concession. But the circumstance was quite difficult. It was a matter of a single state, an extremely small margin, and the issue wasn't so much alleged fraud but accurate and consistent counting of ballots. Remember "hanging chads"?

Thanks for the fine-tuning, accuracy matters including with "hanging chads".

Quote
What is your evidence for saying that Trump "didn't get much" cooperation? This is a serious question. My recollection is that on the Trump side, things were chaotic; Chris Christie was his director of transition and Trump fired him a couple of days in. Far as I know, Obama made the appropriate office space and funding available. But it's pretty hard to cooperate with utter chaos.

Would you be willing to accept the same level of cooperation and chaos free transition that the outgoing Obama administration officials up and down the ladder gave to the incoming Trump administration in 2016-2017?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 11:30:14 AM
I heartily approve the idea of checking out our election system in the years ahead. this should include:
-Considering abolishing the Electoral College
-Finding some nation-wide, inter-state compatible technology for counting votes.
-Counting mail-in votes before Election Day, releasing the counts after the polls close
-Uniform plans for "observers" and "Election judges"
-Massive voter education projects teaching about registration, the various ways of voting
-Intensive investigation on the ways designed to suppress votes or intimidate voters, for example, difficult-to-reach or insignificant numbers of polling places, unofficial "disinformation" campaigns,
-Voting on a Sunday, rather than a work-day, or mandating that employers give time off for voting.
The difficulty is that each state controls elections in that state.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 11:32:14 AM

Let's focus on reality. On today. On looking towards tomorrow. Is that so hard?
Here is the deal today. Biden is the President-Elect. He has won the election. Nothing is likely to change that.

How do you know so many things that so many other people don't know? Do you have inside information, or do you simply assume that the media is unbiased? Again, if all you say is true-- Biden is incontrovertibly elected as our next president-- why do you care whether people wait for the rubber stamp certification on the appointed date? Relax. It is a fait accompli, no? You're like someone whose team is winning 38-3 with 58 seconds to play demanding that they stop the game and declare a winner. Chill. As you see it, your guy won and there can be no doubt about it. So why are you the one who is so hot and bothered about going through the motions?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 11:37:57 AM
Because, Peter, your side has frequently and continually attempted to put an end to those "motions" or to declare that they do not matter, or - through lies and wild statements - tries to cast doubt on the entire process.
Because it is important to draw attention to the seriousness of these matters and to the scary specter of a defeated President, bunkered down in the White House, ignoring his advisors,  who says he will still have campaign rallies, who says that the whole election process is invalid and who previously spoke of never accepting the results of an election that he lost.
Now, part of me says that in reality he is too much of a coward to act on his biggest and most traitorous claims, but I still worry.
Do you know that there are folks around Palm Beach and his Castle Mar-a-Lago who are saying that he never actually had the virus?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: aletheist on November 11, 2020, 11:41:26 AM
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points ...
Last night I started reading Rod Dreher's new book, Live Not by Lies: A Manual for Christian Dissidents. His diagnosis of "soft totalitarianism" strikes me as on the mark, imposed not by government repression but by voluntary (though perhaps unwitting) embrace; as he puts it, more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Edit: Corrected author.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 11, 2020, 11:42:27 AM
When are you moving to Georgia to vote in the run-offs?
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/11/democrats-openly-urge-people-to-commit-voter-fraud-by-temporarily-moving-to-georgia/

I disagree with the headline (do all headline writers belong to the Stephen King School of Headline Writing?), but the story is
the story.  Perhaps not dissimilar to the reported busloads of students and campaign supporters descending on the Iowa caucasus election after election and participating in how "Iowans" pick candidates...
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 11, 2020, 11:52:41 AM
Because, Peter, your side has frequently and continually attempted to put an end to those "motions" or to declare that they do not matter, or - through lies and wild statements - tries to cast doubt on the entire process.
Because it is important to draw attention to the seriousness of these matters and to the scary specter of a defeated President, bunkered down in the White House, ignoring his advisors,  who says he will still have campaign rallies, who says that the whole election process is invalid and who previously spoke of never accepting the results of an election that he lost.
Now, part of me says that in reality he is too much of a coward to act on his biggest and most traitorous claims, but I still worry.
Do you know that there are folks around Palm Beach and his Castle Mar-a-Lago who are saying that he never actually had the virus?

Gosh, I'll be glad when Joe Biden and the Democrats are in office so the process can proceed without doubt.  I mean, they would never organize an investigation into Russian interference that comes up dry, then impeach the president knowing he would not be removed from office.  Surely they wouldn't claim that the election was stolen like so many Republicans are foolishly doing now, and try to delegitimize the election results......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html

And I just KNOW they would not file lawsuits and demand recounts......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida

Do you know how I know these things?  Because I live in Georgia, and I asked our governor, Stacey Abrams.

https://news.yahoo.com/why-stacey-abrams-still-wont-concede-194648579.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADCgOzVJGeYUSr3zNcUG2ggR88O4tbtWouCLVpCVeKCSlKlLlfk8PtX7PL82jqFNQqWfr4lccnTUiJKrVShFjqk9awnC2iCIchGCFliQRnKiotCtwKQHNGS8HzmIHhnE4WKHTyk0SljizHndtkR6GxIppZ2ajpoUte9TNE7xM-IQ
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 12:03:29 PM
Here we meet an impasse ... I believe trust but verify ... one person, one ballot, one vote. 


There are numerous checks to make sure that one person can cast only one ballot, as Charles noted from his experience.

Quote
The idea that more than one ballot can be routinely mailed to a single voter is entirely mind boggling from a control standpoint.  But then no doubt you will some how believe that photo positive photo ID for in person voting suppressed voting ... the idea that one can function today without a photo id is troubling as well.


At least in every church I've served, we always had more wafers and filled wine glasses than the number of people who communed. We didn't try to prepare just the right number for those who had filled out the communion registration cards. Although, at one congregation, they gave the ushers the same number of cards to hand out as the number of pre-filled communion shots. If they ran out of cards as people gathered, the altar guild quickly filled more glasses.


Making sure that there is enough ballots and that every registered voter has an opportunity to vote can mean that there will be duplications on ballots that are sent. That is not a crime. Keeping a registered voter from getting a ballot is a crime. There are also enough safe guards to assure that no one can vote more than once.


If photo IDs were really important, we would have them on credit cards, as the Japanese do. I saw that on the credit card of a Japanese friend who came to visit us.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 12:10:03 PM
Because, Peter, your side has frequently and continually attempted to put an end to those "motions" or to declare that they do not matter, or - through lies and wild statements - tries to cast doubt on the entire process.
Because it is important to draw attention to the seriousness of these matters and to the scary specter of a defeated President, bunkered down in the White House, ignoring his advisors,  who says he will still have campaign rallies, who says that the whole election process is invalid and who previously spoke of never accepting the results of an election that he lost.
Now, part of me says that in reality he is too much of a coward to act on his biggest and most traitorous claims, but I still worry.
Do you know that there are folks around Palm Beach and his Castle Mar-a-Lago who are saying that he never actually had the virus?

Gosh, I'll be glad when Joe Biden and the Democrats are in office so the process can proceed without doubt.  I mean, they would never organize an investigation into Russian interference that comes up dry, then impeach the president knowing he would not be removed from office.  Surely they wouldn't claim that the election was stolen like so many Republicans are foolishly doing now, and try to delegitimize the election results......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html

And I just KNOW they would not file lawsuits and demand recounts......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida

Do you know how I know these things?  Because I live in Georgia, and I asked our governor, Stacey Abrams.

https://news.yahoo.com/why-stacey-abrams-still-wont-concede-194648579.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADCgOzVJGeYUSr3zNcUG2ggR88O4tbtWouCLVpCVeKCSlKlLlfk8PtX7PL82jqFNQqWfr4lccnTUiJKrVShFjqk9awnC2iCIchGCFliQRnKiotCtwKQHNGS8HzmIHhnE4WKHTyk0SljizHndtkR6GxIppZ2ajpoUte9TNE7xM-IQ
Hey, if you send me a few ballots I'll be glad to vote in your senate runoff elections!  ;)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2020, 12:12:05 PM

Let's focus on reality. On today. On looking towards tomorrow. Is that so hard?
Here is the deal today. Biden is the President-Elect. He has won the election. Nothing is likely to change that.

How do you know so many things that so many other people don't know? Do you have inside information, or do you simply assume that the media is unbiased? Again, if all you say is true-- Biden is incontrovertibly elected as our next president-- why do you care whether people wait for the rubber stamp certification on the appointed date? Relax. It is a fait accompli, no? You're like someone whose team is winning 38-3 with 58 seconds to play demanding that they stop the game and declare a winner. Chill. As you see it, your guy won and there can be no doubt about it. So why are you the one who is so hot and bothered about going through the motions?

You are right. It is not a "big deal." Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 12:14:24 PM

Do you know that there are folks around Palm Beach and his Castle Mar-a-Lago who are saying that he never actually had the virus?
So? There are all kinds of people saying all kinds of things. Do find it even remotely believable that he might never have had the virus? If not, why post it? If so, why get so uptight that other people find other seeming absurdities at least remotely believable?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 12:14:32 PM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?
So, Seminex is not quite forgotten yet.


You make the comparison of those who walked out of the seminary which had called them to teach or in which they had enrolled in defiance of the administration that had been properly and legally established to govern that institution and in defiance of the the church body and its teachings which had established the seminary and administered it and the properly elected administration of that church body to form a rogue seminary that claimed governance independent of the church body and sought to prepare pastors for that church body independent of the church body and not subject to that church body's supervision to those who worked for the Trump administration.

Those who attended Seminex (and those who taught there) were in open defiance of and rebellion against those who had been duly placed in authority over them. You may or may not agree that rebellion was justified and necessary but that is a different question. Surely, after such rebellion questions are in order.

Are you claiming that Trump was not the legitimate president or that he was not legally elected to that office and that those who worked in that administration were working for an illegitimate government? Do you claim that those who worked in or supported his administration were in rebellion against the duly authorized administration of our nation?

Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?


You remember the history a bit differently than I do. As I recall, it was much like the present situation. When the synod president couldn't get the seminary board (the ones who are in charge of the seminary) to do things his way, he worked at getting them replaced with people who would do his bidding. (Sound familiar?) There was rhetoric about heretical professors, but besides Tietjen, no names nor evidence was presented about who were heretical and who were not. (Does making claims without names or evidence sound familiar?)


If the students didn't know which classes they should take and which to avoid, they decided to avoid all the classes to make sure that they weren't being taught by heretics.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 12:18:29 PM
For that reason, I tend to trust Project Veritas because their m.o. us to go under cover and get real recordings, which they then share. That having been said, i would be surprised (but not stunned) if it turns out Trump won the election.


As I recall, they edited their recordings to make sure they said what they wanted them to say.


While it wasn't them, I remember a video that was circulated of a lady in Georgia (I believe) that took her words so out of context, that it had her saying the opposite of what the words in context were saying. She lost her job over the edited video.


Showing the tape of something doesn't necessarily prove anything.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 12:20:24 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 12:22:29 PM

Let's focus on reality. On today. On looking towards tomorrow. Is that so hard?
Here is the deal today. Biden is the President-Elect. He has won the election. Nothing is likely to change that.

How do you know so many things that so many other people don't know? Do you have inside information, or do you simply assume that the media is unbiased? Again, if all you say is true-- Biden is incontrovertibly elected as our next president-- why do you care whether people wait for the rubber stamp certification on the appointed date? Relax. It is a fait accompli, no? You're like someone whose team is winning 38-3 with 58 seconds to play demanding that they stop the game and declare a winner. Chill. As you see it, your guy won and there can be no doubt about it. So why are you the one who is so hot and bothered about going through the motions?

You are right. It is not a "big deal." Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

Peace, JOHN
The margins in Wisconsin, Arizona, and Georgia (which would swing the presidency to Trump by rendering a 269-269 tie and sending the race to the House) are within the general automatic recount range of about a half a percent. The vote differential in the three states combined is less that the vote differential by which Stacy Abrams lost the Georgia governor race, and she still thinks she won. It seemed on election day that Trump would win. It seemed the next day like Biden would win. Nothing has changed, but there is no reason not to let it play out. Trump is unlike every Republican predecessor in a good way-- he insists on leaving it all on the field, which is something he owes to his supporters. So let the lawsuits have their day in court. If they are frivolous, they'll get thrown out. Let the recounts happen. If the vote count is on the up and up, the numbers won't change. It just seems to me that the all-hands-on-deck insistence that everyone recognize it is over is really coming from a position of angst that it just might not be over.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Coach-Rev on November 11, 2020, 12:23:49 PM

Do you know that there are folks around Palm Beach and his Castle Mar-a-Lago who are saying that he never actually had the virus?
So? There are all kinds of people saying all kinds of things. Do find it even remotely believable that he might never have had the virus? If not, why post it? If so, why get so uptight that other people find other seeming absurdities at least remotely believable?

I would add that considering he was hospitalized at Walter Reed for several days, reported by even the most liberal of outlets that even Charles would believe,  it's seems foolish to even post such an absurd claim.  Sorry for quoting you, but since Charles is now on 'ignore," I only see his posts when someone quotes them. Sadly, I've seen just about all of them still.  I wonder why that is?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 12:24:02 PM
Even given the awaited certification of a new administration, those actually concerned about the health and functioning of our democracy and ease of voting would be the first to applaud a bi-partisan post-election check-up by elected folk to evaluate the way things worked (not how people voted, not who won or lost) in each jurisdiction and nation-wide to help improve accuracy and timeliness, as well as to disprove the claims about fraudulent voting.


Every state has already had a bipartisan group evaluating the election as it happened. Such evaluations belong to the states not the federal government.

Quote
Simply stating that there is no need to have a thorough and transparent post-election evaluation by proper authorities because your guy or my gal won an election is a bit like not having a health check-up or not tuning up your car's engine and checking everything out at reasonable intervals because my body and my car got me where I wanted to go all Summer long.


The proper authorities are the state election boards; not the Justice Department, unless there is evidence that the election boards were corrupt in carrying out their duties and broke federal laws.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 12:28:58 PM
For that reason, I tend to trust Project Veritas because their m.o. us to go under cover and get real recordings, which they then share. That having been said, i would be surprised (but not stunned) if it turns out Trump won the election.


As I recall, they edited their recordings to make sure they said what they wanted them to say.


You recall wrongly. They edited their recordings because they were many hours long since they came from people wearing a wire, and most of those hours featured nothing relevant happening. When the same sort of people who claim that the postal worker recanted when he didn't recant said that the tape was edited, they were referring to the fact that the released portions were only the actual conversations, not the waiting around, using the restroom, etc. In response, Project Veritas released the entire recording (I believe they were something like 9 hours' worth) to prove that it wasn't deceptively edited, but that didn't stop the press from reporting that the tapes had been discredited because they were shown to be deceptively edited. Which is why you recall things that aren't true. You, like Charles, are far too credulous when it comes to your favored sources and far to cynical when it comes to alternative views.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2020, 12:42:53 PM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?
So, Seminex is not quite forgotten yet.


You make the comparison of those who walked out of the seminary which had called them to teach or in which they had enrolled in defiance of the administration that had been properly and legally established to govern that institution and in defiance of the the church body and its teachings which had established the seminary and administered it and the properly elected administration of that church body to form a rogue seminary that claimed governance independent of the church body and sought to prepare pastors for that church body independent of the church body and not subject to that church body's supervision to those who worked for the Trump administration.

Those who attended Seminex (and those who taught there) were in open defiance of and rebellion against those who had been duly placed in authority over them. You may or may not agree that rebellion was justified and necessary but that is a different question. Surely, after such rebellion questions are in order.

Are you claiming that Trump was not the legitimate president or that he was not legally elected to that office and that those who worked in that administration were working for an illegitimate government? Do you claim that those who worked in or supported his administration were in rebellion against the duly authorized administration of our nation?

Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?


You remember the history a bit differently than I do. As I recall, it was much like the present situation. When the synod president couldn't get the seminary board (the ones who are in charge of the seminary) to do things his way, he worked at getting them replaced with people who would do his bidding. (Sound familiar?) There was rhetoric about heretical professors, but besides Tietjen, no names nor evidence was presented about who were heretical and who were not. (Does making claims without names or evidence sound familiar?)


If the students didn't know which classes they should take and which to avoid, they decided to avoid all the classes to make sure that they weren't being taught by heretics.

I do not want to further derail this thread on Seminex history issues, but might I recommend purchasing and reading Dr. Paul Zimmerman's book A Seminary in Crisis- The Inside Story of the Preus Fact Finding Committe (CPH, 2007)? Dr. Zimmerman was a member of my previous church in Michigan when I served there in the 90s.  He is not only a man of great integrity, but truly in the know on this matter. I was pleased that he finally wrote the book, late in life (well into his 80s), to fill in the gaps of this important period of history in the LCMS. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 12:45:02 PM
Groups on the left wing of the Democratic Party like the Sunrise Movement and Justice Democrats are offering their proposals for people to be included in the Biden administration and policy proposals. All of these are, no surprise, on the left wing of even the Democratic Party and if enacted would reinforce the Biden administration as very if not extremely Progressive. Is this a problem? Not really. As Biden and his closest advisors working on the transition consider the make up of his administration and their initial policy and program agenda he will receive advise and suggestions from all sorts of people. Those on the left should have their voices heard. Nor does their pushing a very left wing agenda means that Biden will not reach out also across the aisle and work with the Republicans who are a part of our government and the American people. What will matter is not all the talk that is now taking place, but what Biden actually does later when he is in office.


Biden himself is formulating his "wish list" of what he wants to accomplish. And it is, especially in contrast with Trump, a rather liberal and progressive list. Again, at this point it is talk, it is a starting place for negotiation. At the beginning of a negotiation it is helpful for each party in the negotiation to make a "here I stand" statement to define themselves and what they hope for. Then the work of people having a meeting of minds, working out what the priorities are, where they can give and where they need to hold firm. The time for Biden and Republicans to each give some to reach consensus is later.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 12:49:13 PM
I wonder, Pastor Fienen, how it was with call committees or interviews for perspective pastors in your synod for the 5, 10 or 15 years following the schism of the 1970s. Don’t you think candidates might’ve been asked where they were and what they did from 1969 to 1975? I know some Seminex graduates got calls within the Missouri Synod. I know some were refused calls. Isn’t where one was and what one did during a certain period of time relevant for employment?
So, Seminex is not quite forgotten yet.


You make the comparison of those who walked out of the seminary which had called them to teach or in which they had enrolled in defiance of the administration that had been properly and legally established to govern that institution and in defiance of the the church body and its teachings which had established the seminary and administered it and the properly elected administration of that church body to form a rogue seminary that claimed governance independent of the church body and sought to prepare pastors for that church body independent of the church body and not subject to that church body's supervision to those who worked for the Trump administration.

Those who attended Seminex (and those who taught there) were in open defiance of and rebellion against those who had been duly placed in authority over them. You may or may not agree that rebellion was justified and necessary but that is a different question. Surely, after such rebellion questions are in order.

Are you claiming that Trump was not the legitimate president or that he was not legally elected to that office and that those who worked in that administration were working for an illegitimate government? Do you claim that those who worked in or supported his administration were in rebellion against the duly authorized administration of our nation?

Would it have been legitimate for Trump's administration to have asked a "ton of questions" before hiring people who had worked in the Obama administration? What sort of questions?


You remember the history a bit differently than I do. As I recall, it was much like the present situation. When the synod president couldn't get the seminary board (the ones who are in charge of the seminary) to do things his way, he worked at getting them replaced with people who would do his bidding. (Sound familiar?) There was rhetoric about heretical professors, but besides Tietjen, no names nor evidence was presented about who were heretical and who were not. (Does making claims without names or evidence sound familiar?)


If the students didn't know which classes they should take and which to avoid, they decided to avoid all the classes to make sure that they weren't being taught by heretics.
Let me point out that my memory also includes observing the whole mess as it unfolded from the vantage of the Senior College where I was a senior that year, hearing and observing representatives from all sides of the conflict who came to talk with us. I heard all the talking points of the students who walked out and their professors.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 12:53:24 PM
Peter, I make no "claim" about the president being sick or not being sick. I was just noting, as I am sure you agree, that a lot of off-beat things are "out there." Social media takes some of these things and magnifies them by the millions.
And the angst which I may have, but which is now mostly ebbing, is that I believe this president to be so egotistical, so corrupt, so immoral, so dictatorially ambitious, so dismissive of our sacred governing documents that he and his people (who may actually be controlling him) would stop at nothing, even attempting to find reasons to call upon the military to keep him in office. The parallels between us and Germany in the 1930s are there.
He would stay in office claiming the election was rigged against him, but if he did, you would see trouble in our streets that would make anything previous look like a sandbox tussle. And that would be a real tragedy.
But, hey, maybe he'll appoint some judges that will rule your way on a couple of issues.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2020, 01:09:08 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 01:10:49 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2020, 01:21:40 PM
I hear distant echoes of Nixon's famous quote from 1962 (which proved later to be premature) when he told the press: "you don't have Nixon to kick around anymore..." I'm wondering what the press and many in the Democratic party will do once Biden has taken up occupancy in the Oval Office, and when Pelosi is still in control of the House, and, if it works out, McConnell is no longer in charge of the Senate.  Who will there will be "kick around"? 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 11, 2020, 01:24:29 PM


Why were ballots mailed to her both at her Oregon residence and 2 ballots to a out of state address where never lived after registering to vote in Oregon?



Rather than hyperventilating about it, why don't you call the county clerk and ask? That's what I did when my son received election information after he had moved to a different state.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2020, 01:27:53 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 11, 2020, 01:31:11 PM
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/11/11/easy-breezy_biden_ignores_transition_drama__144639.html

I think this article should help everyone simmer down about the transition. Biden seems unconcerned. As does Trump. Trump is clearly playing it as though he knows something most people don't. If he is bluffing just for the sake of leaving open the possibility of a 2024 rematch, so be it. If not, so be it. He can't hold his cards forever; there is a deadline for laying the cards on the table. So wait for the deadline.

Here's an interesting historical perspective from four years ago:  https://time.com/4566735/obama-trump-presidential-transition-history-origins/ (https://time.com/4566735/obama-trump-presidential-transition-history-origins/)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 11, 2020, 01:32:14 PM

Would you be willing to accept the same level of cooperation and chaos free transition that the outgoing Obama administration officials up and down the ladder gave to the incoming Trump administration in 2016-2017?

Probably so.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2020, 01:33:00 PM
As Biden prepares to recommend sweeping tax increases on corporate America, it is interesting that some of these firms are already making choices in terms of relocation due to state taxes.  Some of the larger population centers, such as New York and California, may continue to lose businesses as they levy harsh taxes.  These areas are also Democratic strongholds as shown in the election just past.  I wonder how that loss of revenue will impact areas already suffering economic downturns.  And long term, now it may impact future elections.  Have no idea. But it will be interesting to watch.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 01:33:45 PM
Peter, I make no "claim" about the president being sick or not being sick. I was just noting, as I am sure you agree, that a lot of off-beat things are "out there." Social media takes some of these things and magnifies them by the millions.
And the angst which I may have, but which is now mostly ebbing, is that I believe this president to be so egotistical, so corrupt, so immoral, so dictatorially ambitious, so dismissive of our sacred governing documents that he and his people (who may actually be controlling him) would stop at nothing, even attempting to find reasons to call upon the military to keep him in office. The parallels between us and Germany in the 1930s are there.
He would stay in office claiming the election was rigged against him, but if he did, you would see trouble in our streets that would make anything previous look like a sandbox tussle. And that would be a real tragedy.
But, hey, maybe he'll appoint some judges that will rule your way on a couple of issues.
I believe your beliefs to be nonsense. The parallels between here and now and 1930’s Germany are laughable and serve mainly to endow “the resistance” with the glow of moral rectitude in breaking the law.

Let’s just pretend that the FBI is conducting a sting operation. They infiltrated some states that do mail in voting and secretly monitored the process in order convict people engaged in fraud. If that happened, then in order to garner convictions they’d need to see those votes counted. In that case, wouldn’t the aftermath of the election look the way it looks now? I’m not saying that is happening, I’m just positing a hypothetical.

Now say they reveal their findings and it turns out several states counted fraudulent ballots. Indictments ensue. The election flips to Trump. Would you take that lying down? Would you trust the investigation? Or would suddenly every deep state conspiracy start to sound plausible to you? My guess is the latter. You’d want some transparency. And nobody could blame you for that.

Until you learn to see the mainstream media as a partisan player (not in any official capacity, but de facto, like Hollywood) you’ll never understand the people you disagree with.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 01:36:50 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Fair enough. But it is not an example of cancel culture. Unless you're into the Stoffregen style of making up your own definitions.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 11, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
As Biden prepares to recommend sweeping tax increases on corporate America, it is interesting that some of these firms are already making choices in terms of relocation due to state taxes.  Some of the larger population centers, such as New York and California, may continue to lose businesses as they levy harsh taxes.  These areas are also Democratic strongholds as shown in the election just past.  I wonder how that loss of revenue will impact areas already suffering economic downturns.  And long term, now it may impact future elections.  Have no idea. But it will be interesting to watch.

You know, everybody always talks about California as a "Democratic stronghold," but it doesn't get much press that the three or four most controversial propositions on the recent ballot were all decided in the more "conservative" direction.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 01:42:49 PM
Peter, I make no "claim" about the president being sick or not being sick. I was just noting, as I am sure you agree, that a lot of off-beat things are "out there." Social media takes some of these things and magnifies them by the millions.
And the angst which I may have, but which is now mostly ebbing, is that I believe this president to be so egotistical, so corrupt, so immoral, so dictatorially ambitious, so dismissive of our sacred governing documents that he and his people (who may actually be controlling him) would stop at nothing, even attempting to find reasons to call upon the military to keep him in office. The parallels between us and Germany in the 1930s are there.
He would stay in office claiming the election was rigged against him, but if he did, you would see trouble in our streets that would make anything previous look like a sandbox tussle. And that would be a real tragedy.
But, hey, maybe he'll appoint some judges that will rule your way on a couple of issues.
And some us see parallels between the cancel culture and the cultural revolution in China.


Let's look at some of the things that have been happening over the last several years that have made it into the news. Patrons at outdoor seating at a restaurant being accosted by demonstrators who demanded that they join in salutes to the demonstrators' organization. Entertainers loosing their jobs and having their careers effectively ended because they said something that some found offensive perhaps years or decades previous, news media people being fired or hounded from their positions because some objected to something that they wrote or permitted to be published that was not considered politically correct. The list could go on. Trump did all that? No, but those who oppose Trump because he is a Fascist and cannot tolerate dissent from their positions.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Robert Johnson on November 11, 2020, 02:00:12 PM
There are several investigations in Texas. One that has proceeded to formal charges is a person charged with 134 counts of election fraud:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/ (https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/06/texas-social-worker-charged-counts-election-fraud/)

This is exactly why mass mail-in ballots are an awful idea.
Hmmmm... Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume that President Trump really won Texas.

Cute. What part of “social worker” did you miss?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Robert Johnson on November 11, 2020, 02:05:38 PM
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points ...
Last night I started reading Ross Douthat's new book, Live Not by Lies: A Manual for Christian Dissidents. His diagnosis of "soft totalitarianism" strikes me as on the mark, imposed not by government repression but by voluntary (though perhaps unwitting) embrace; as he puts it, more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four.

I think the author is Rod Dreher.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
News flash, Peter! I believe that much of the "mainstream" media is partisan. But I also believe that most of what it publishes is true. And I believe there is an attempt (not always successful, but usually present) to draw a distinction between editorial opinion or standing and news and to not warp the news so that it is in accord with editorial opinion. And I know that I will never be able to convince some of you about this. At some newspapers, the editorial pages and op-ed pages and people who work those pages aren't even on the same floor as the newsroom.
Your right-wing media or Fox (which is, sad to say, mainstream), doesn't even pretend to present facts. It publishes outright lies and knows that it is publishing lies to advance a political agenda.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 02:50:57 PM
News flash, Peter! I believe that much of the "mainstream" media is partisan. But I also believe that most of what it publishes is true. And I believe there is an attempt (not always successful, but usually present) to draw a distinction between editorial opinion or standing and news and to not warp the news so that it is in accord with editorial opinion. And I know that I will never be able to convince some of you about this. At some newspapers, the editorial pages and op-ed pages and people who work those pages aren't even on the same floor as the newsroom.
Your right-wing media or Fox (which is, sad to say, mainstream), doesn't even pretend to present facts. It publishes outright lies and knows that it is publishing lies to advance a political agenda.
https://lidblog.com/richard-hopkins-wapo/
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 02:58:17 PM


Why were ballots mailed to her both at her Oregon residence and 2 ballots to a out of state address where never lived after registering to vote in Oregon?



Rather than hyperventilating about it, why don't you call the county clerk and ask? That's what I did when my son received election information after he had moved to a different state.


We have written "return to sender" on the unopened voting materials sent to our son at our address with an additional note, "No longer lives here."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: DeHall1 on November 11, 2020, 03:33:16 PM
News flash, Peter! I believe that much of the "mainstream" media is partisan. But I also believe that most of what it publishes is true. And I believe there is an attempt (not always successful, but usually present) to draw a distinction between editorial opinion or standing and news and to not warp the news so that it is in accord with editorial opinion. And I know that I will never be able to convince some of you about this. At some newspapers, the editorial pages and op-ed pages and people who work those pages aren't even on the same floor as the newsroom.
Your right-wing media or Fox (which is, sad to say, mainstream), doesn't even pretend to present facts. It publishes outright lies and knows that it is publishing lies to advance a political agenda.
https://lidblog.com/richard-hopkins-wapo/

There's this as well...
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-intercept

Here's the article that lead to Mr. Greenwald's resignation:

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/article-on-joe-and-hunter-biden-censored
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 11, 2020, 03:35:51 PM
The Georgia manual recount begins ... the Georgia senate campaigns heat up ... the quote of the day ... All Democrats may not be Socialists ... but all socialists are Democrats!🥴
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pastor Ken Kimball on November 11, 2020, 04:46:10 PM
I'm not in favor of political unity.  It's a feature of authoritarian states like China, North Korea, Russia, etc.  Disunity, i.e. disagreement and opposition and even resistance in the form of elected representatives actually representing those who elected them signals the existence of democratic governments and societies.   The present calls for unity by Biden and others are calls for capitulation.  The Democrats obviously and clearly did not capitulate and surrender their issues, concerns, and agenda following the 2016 elections.  That was their right under the Constitution even as the Constitution allowed the winners of the 2016 elections to pursue their agenda, within the bounds of the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights and other amendments), including having to deal with response/resistance of Democrats doing so (again under and within the bounds of our constitutionally established republic).  Where agreement and compromise of common interests and common understanding of the national good can be made--fine, with the recognized provision that those voting for such things do so in recognition that they will be held accountable by the electorate.  Let those we elected fight it out and if that means gridlock on things like climate change, taxes, et al, I'm fine with that.  No mindless unity and capitulation.  Leave that to the totalitarians.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2020, 05:01:04 PM
I'm not in favor of political unity.  It's a feature of authoritarian states like China, North Korea, Russia, etc.  Disunity, i.e. disagreement and opposition and even resistance in the form of elected representatives actually representing those who elected them signals the existence of democratic governments and societies.   The present calls for unity by Biden and others are calls for capitulation.  The Democrats obviously and clearly did not capitulate and surrender their issues, concerns, and agenda following the 2016 elections.  That was their right under the Constitution even as the Constitution allowed the winners of the 2016 elections to pursue their agenda, within the bounds of the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights and other amendments), including having to deal with response/resistance of Democrats doing so (again under and within the bounds of our constitutionally established republic).  Where agreement and compromise of common interests and common understanding of the national good can be made--fine, with the recognized provision that those voting for such things do so in recognition that they will be held accountable by the electorate.  Let those we elected fight it out and if that means gridlock on things like climate change, taxes, et al, I'm fine with that.  No mindless unity and capitulation.  Leave that to the totalitarians.


Unity is not the same as uniformity. School administration and teachers and staff may be unified in their goal to offer the best education to their students as possible. Each group has a different emphasis and responsibility in how they reach that. Sometimes the emphases may be in conflict with each other, e.g., balancing the budget and the desire for computers for every student. A consultant, a superintendent who was a friend, brought in helped them find solutions that were win-win. It began by agreeing on a common objective, i.e., educating the students. Each side then could present what they believe they needed to reach that goal; and compromises were made with their eyes always on the goal they were all trying to reach. One outcome is that the superintendent spent a lunch hour (actually more like 2 hours) every month in every school so that the staff had immediate access to him. He didn't come with an agenda, but to be easily accessible in their lunch room. It greatly helped communications and respect on both sides.


The problem with gridlock where nothing gets decided or done is that they can fail to achieve their primary goal of educating the students. No one wins and it's the students who suffer the worse consequences.


Unity, as Paul illustrates it, is being one body; but a body that has many different parts. It is not everyone being a foot.



Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 05:16:32 PM
Peter, concerning the recanting whistleblower, do people not note that if there is a problem with understanding whether he recanted or not, the source of the problem is the Postal/Service Inspector General and not with the Washington Post? The newspaper reported, I presume accurately, what he said about the Whistler.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 05:32:51 PM
Peter, concerning the recanting whistleblower, do people not note that if there is a problem with understanding whether he recanted or not, the source of the problem is the Postal/Service Inspector General and not with the Washington Post? The newspaper reported, I presume accurately, what he said about the Whistler.
So do you think readers of WaPo are well informed or victims of disinformation if they read WaPo and think (wrongly) that the story has been debunked because the guy recanted?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pastor Ken Kimball on November 11, 2020, 05:52:20 PM
I'm not in favor of political unity.  It's a feature of authoritarian states like China, North Korea, Russia, etc.  Disunity, i.e. disagreement and opposition and even resistance in the form of elected representatives actually representing those who elected them signals the existence of democratic governments and societies.   The present calls for unity by Biden and others are calls for capitulation.  The Democrats obviously and clearly did not capitulate and surrender their issues, concerns, and agenda following the 2016 elections.  That was their right under the Constitution even as the Constitution allowed the winners of the 2016 elections to pursue their agenda, within the bounds of the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights and other amendments), including having to deal with response/resistance of Democrats doing so (again under and within the bounds of our constitutionally established republic).  Where agreement and compromise of common interests and common understanding of the national good can be made--fine, with the recognized provision that those voting for such things do so in recognition that they will be held accountable by the electorate.  Let those we elected fight it out and if that means gridlock on things like climate change, taxes, et al, I'm fine with that.  No mindless unity and capitulation.  Leave that to the totalitarians.


Unity is not the same as uniformity. School administration and teachers and staff may be unified in their goal to offer the best education to their students as possible. Each group has a different emphasis and responsibility in how they reach that. Sometimes the emphases may be in conflict with each other, e.g., balancing the budget and the desire for computers for every student. A consultant, a superintendent who was a friend, brought in helped them find solutions that were win-win. It began by agreeing on a common objective, i.e., educating the students. Each side then could present what they believe they needed to reach that goal; and compromises were made with their eyes always on the goal they were all trying to reach. One outcome is that the superintendent spent a lunch hour (actually more like 2 hours) every month in every school so that the staff had immediate access to him. He didn't come with an agenda, but to be easily accessible in their lunch room. It greatly helped communications and respect on both sides.


The problem with gridlock where nothing gets decided or done is that they can fail to achieve their primary goal of educating the students. No one wins and it's the students who suffer the worse consequences.


Unity, as Paul illustrates it, is being one body; but a body that has many different parts. It is not everyone being a foot.
Embleer hraka.  Not interested in your rabbit hole. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2020, 06:02:34 PM
I think, Peter that there may be more to the story. Or maybe not. Truth isn’t always one thing; sometimes it evolves. Like everything.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: aletheist on November 11, 2020, 06:12:26 PM
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points ...
Last night I started reading Ross Douthat's new book, Live Not by Lies: A Manual for Christian Dissidents. His diagnosis of "soft totalitarianism" strikes me as on the mark, imposed not by government repression but by voluntary (though perhaps unwitting) embrace; as he puts it, more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four.
I think the author is Rod Dreher.
Thanks, you are correct, I keep getting those two mixed up for some reason. I have fixed the post.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 11, 2020, 06:37:57 PM
I think, Peter that there may be more to the story. Or maybe not. Truth isn’t always one thing; sometimes it evolves. Like everything.
True. But WaPo was extremely quick to report the man had recanted and very slow to report that he now says he was wrong. That is a typical pattern in my experience— yes, there is lot of confusion, but the press makes sure the version of events more favorable to Democrats ends up being the official version.

Sometimes it is via silence. If you read any conservative news, you have been been reminded that one of the first questions of the first debate was to Biden, who was asked if he would promise then and there that he would not declare victory until the official vote was certified. He answered with an equivocal yes. Why does the NYT or WaPo not treat that the same as they would Republican?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 11, 2020, 08:25:05 PM
Your right-wing media or Fox (which is, sad to say, mainstream), doesn't even pretend to present facts. It publishes outright lies and knows that it is publishing lies to advance a political agenda.

Yes ... right winged Fox has declared Biden President elect ... routinely “fact checks” the President and his press secretary and oh yes refers to Biden as president elect.

Really right wing stuff.🧐
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 11, 2020, 08:58:03 PM
I think, Peter that there may be more to the story. Or maybe not. Truth isn’t always one thing; sometimes it evolves. Like everything.
True. But WaPo was extremely quick to report the man had recanted and very slow to report that he now says he was wrong. That is a typical pattern in my experience— yes, there is lot of confusion, but the press makes sure the version of events more favorable to Democrats ends up being the official version.

Sometimes it is via silence. If you read any conservative news, you have been been reminded that one of the first questions of the first debate was to Biden, who was asked if he would promise then and there that he would not declare victory until the official vote was certified. He answered with an equivocal yes. Why does the NYT or WaPo not treat that the same as they would Republican?

Actually, it was the last question on September 29.  What does "independently certified" mean?  The news media says so?  Each state announces their results?  All court challenges are over?  The electors meet?  The congress accepts the elector's votes?  Wallace should have been more specific.

Quote from: https://www.debates.org/voter-education/debate-transcripts/september-29-2020-debate-transcript/
WALLACE: Vice President Biden, final question for you. Will you urge your supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted? And will you pledge not to declare victory until the election is independently certified?

BIDEN: Yes. And here’s the deal. We count the ballots, as you pointed out. Some of these ballots in some states can’t even be opened until election day. And if there’s thousands of ballots, it’s going to take time to do it. And by the way, our military–they’ve been voting by ballots for since the end of the Civil War, in effect. And that’s, and that’s what’s going to happen. Why was it not, why is it for them, somehow not fraudulent. It’s the same process. It’s honest. No one has established at all that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots, that the, somehow it’s a fraudulent process.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2020, 09:04:37 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Fair enough. But it is not an example of cancel culture. Unless you're into the Stoffregen style of making up your own definitions.

It's cancel culture to me regardless of what you or Stoffregen say. Merriam Webster has not yet defined the word as far as I know.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2020, 09:07:33 PM
What I failed to understand is that the AP was designated by law as the agency that certifies the election.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 11, 2020, 09:12:07 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Fair enough. But it is not an example of cancel culture. Unless you're into the Stoffregen style of making up your own definitions.

It's cancel culture to me regardless of what you or Stoffregen say. Merriam Webster has not yet defined the word as far as I know.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Except that we found out in the ACB hearings, Merriam Webster’s definitions at times change along with he political winds.🤭
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 11, 2020, 09:12:44 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Fair enough. But it is not an example of cancel culture. Unless you're into the Stoffregen style of making up your own definitions.

It's cancel culture to me regardless of what you or Stoffregen say. Merriam Webster has not yet defined the word as far as I know.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Dictionaries always lag popular usage.  Merriam-Webster may not yet have added "cancel culture" to their dictionary yet, but others have.  A recent article on the Merriam-Webster web site:

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/cancel-culture-words-were-watching
Cancel is getting a new use. Canceling and cancel culture have to do with the removing of support for public figures in response to their objectionable behavior or opinions. This can include boycotts or refusal to promote their work.

The online definition of "cancel" doesn't yet include this new meaning, but the text below appears in the FAQ after the formal definitions.

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cancel
What does it mean to cancel someone?
To cancel someone is to stop supporting them or their work. This means no longer reading what they write, listening to or watching what they create, or enjoying what they produce.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 11, 2020, 09:15:30 PM
What I failed to understand is that the AP was designated by law as the agency that certifies the election.
The AP has about as much creditably as Boris Johnson referring to President Trump as the past president ... apparently unaware that the presidential term lasts until noon eastern Jan 20.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2020, 09:19:16 PM
Nonetheless Trump's behavior is contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing. It is just another example of the "cancel culture" spreading every where today.

An example of the cancel culture? How so?

"contrary to what every Republican candidate has done before in losing."    ;D

Peace, JOHN

Oh, you were being whimsical ...  8)

No. Not al all. Presidential protocol is an important part of our culture even though it is not specified in the Constitution. Perhaps it is the wave of the future for presidential elections. If so, there's nothing I can do about it. I do hope it is not.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Fair enough. But it is not an example of cancel culture. Unless you're into the Stoffregen style of making up your own definitions.

It's cancel culture to me regardless of what you or Stoffregen say. Merriam Webster has not yet defined the word as far as I know.    :)

Peace, JOHN

Dictionaries always lag popular usage.  Merriam-Webster may not yet have added "cancel culture" to their dictionary yet, but others have.  A recent article on the Merriam-Webster web site:

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/cancel-culture-words-were-watching
Cancel is getting a new use. Canceling and cancel culture have to do with the removing of support for public figures in response to their objectionable behavior or opinions. This can include boycotts or refusal to promote their work.

Thanks. Good to know Merriam Webster are on top of things. It does then apply to removing support for the President elect. A bit of embarasment for Republicans that I hope they come to regret in the future.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
It does then apply to removing support for the President elect. A bit of embarasment for Republicans that I hope they come to regret in the future.   :)

No, it does not apply.

But I know, Rev Hannah, that you (and ALPB) cannot be wrong. You're from New York. So I acquiesce.

Oh yeah... 😊

Peace
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 11, 2020, 10:14:10 PM
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points ...
Last night I started reading Ross Douthat's new book, Live Not by Lies: A Manual for Christian Dissidents. His diagnosis of "soft totalitarianism" strikes me as on the mark, imposed not by government repression but by voluntary (though perhaps unwitting) embrace; as he puts it, more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four.
I think the author is Rod Dreher.
Thanks, you are correct, I keep getting those two mixed up for some reason. I have fixed the post.

Well, they  have the same initials and they are both interesting writers. Don't be too hard on yourself.  ;)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 11, 2020, 11:20:25 PM
The left is quite frankly totalitarian in their view points ...
Last night I started reading Ross Douthat's new book, Live Not by Lies: A Manual for Christian Dissidents. His diagnosis of "soft totalitarianism" strikes me as on the mark, imposed not by government repression but by voluntary (though perhaps unwitting) embrace; as he puts it, more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four.
I think the author is Rod Dreher.
Thanks, you are correct, I keep getting those two mixed up for some reason. I have fixed the post.

A Christian Response to Soft Totalitarianism (https://issuesetc.org/2020/09/30/2742-a-christian-response-to-soft-totalitarianism-rod-dreher-9-30-20/)’ is an interview about the book with Rod Dreher.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 12, 2020, 12:02:13 AM
I understand the feelings of those who think the president was unfairly treated. I disagree with them and hope they will recover soon.
Really ... you don’t see that branding your opponents as ‘sick’ and as such hoping “they will recover soon” is nothing short of personally attacking those with whom you disagree ... definitely not the ‘unity’ speak you have piously spoken of.
Quote
I won’t and can’t change how they feel. I can ask them, for the good of the country, to work fairly with those now in office,
This statement is priceless ... you have failed to do this for for the current president who by the way is still in office ... those not in office include those claiming the fictitious “office of president elect”. The constitution makes no mention if this office.
Quote
- if they think this is the situation - “returning evil for evil”. (Romans 12:17)
Again priceless ... after 4 years of evil speech against President Trump you find religion?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James J Eivan on November 12, 2020, 12:22:41 AM
Thanks. Good to know Merriam Webster are on top of things. It does then apply to removing support for the President elect. A bit of embarasment for Republicans that I hope they come to regret in the future.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Wasn’t it an embarrassment to the dems in 2000 when Gore waited 30 days to concede? The union survived ... some would say that the process improved election technology.

Perhaps this time around slow counting states such as PA will learn from states such as Florida how to administer an election in a timely manner  ... Florida went from the source of the problem in 2000 to being a shining example of efficient and reliable election administration this year.

Still awaiting for the constitutional reference to the “president elect”. Crickets 🦗 thus far! Please quit manufacturing this “‘embarrassment” crud.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 12, 2020, 01:15:51 AM
Two decades ago I was praying the Great Ektania during Vespers and at the beginning of the Sunday Liturgy in Advent for "William our President and for our unknown President-elect."

Deja-vu all over again.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 04:37:16 AM
This year, J. Thomas Shelley, until Jan. 20, we pray for “Joseph, our President-Elect, and Kamala, our Vice-President Elect.”
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 04:53:13 AM
From CNN, my emphasis added:
Karl Rove, the architect of former President George W. Bush's gubernatorial and presidential campaigns, acknowledged Wednesday that the 2020 presidential election will not be overturned regardless of the flurry of lawsuits from President Donald Trump challenging the results.
   Rove -- who sources said advised the White House and Trump campaign leading up to the 2020 election -- wrote in a Wall Street Journal op-ed that while the President is within his right to challenge the results, his efforts "are unlikely to move a single state from Mr. Biden's column, and certainly they're not enough to change the final outcome."
   To prevail, Rove wrote, Trump would need to "prove systemic fraud, with illegal votes in the tens of thousands. There is no evidence of that so far. Unless some emerges quickly, the President's chances in court will decline precipitously when states start certifying results."
   "Closing out this election will be a hard but necessary step toward restoring some unity and political equilibrium," he added. "Once his days in court are over, the President should do his part to unite the country by leading a peaceful transition and letting grievances go."
   The op-ed makes Rove one of the highest profile GOP figures to encourage the President to accept the results of the election.


And from CNBC:
NBC News reported that Trump met with his son-in-law and senior White House advisor Jared Kushner, campaign manager Bill Stepien and senior campaign advisor Jason Miller to discuss a path forward for the Republican incumbent.
   Trump held a similar meeting on Tuesday that was more focused on the status of multiple legal challenges his campaign has launched in an attempt to invalidate ballots cast for Biden in six battleground states.
   Wednesday’s meeting came as NBC News reported that there is growing expectation among Trump’s advisors that he will never concede that he lost to Biden, even when ballots are certified in coming weeks around the country.
   “Do not expect him to concede,” a top aide told NBC. It is more likely, the aide said, that “he’ll say something like, ‘We can’t trust the results, but I’m not contesting them.”

I comment:
If the aide is correct, his parting line will be another ego-driven attack not supported by any evidence, on the foundation of our democracy. Now there’s a legacy!

From CNBC:
Election analysts and legal observers say his chances of winning a recount or of invalidating enough ballots by proving fraud or some other irregularity to deny Biden a victory in even a single state, much less multiple states, are slim at best.
    Biden’s legal advisor Bob Bauer has called the Trump campaign’s legal challenges to ballots “theatrics.”
    A White House official told NBC News, “It’s not wrong for the Biden team to call it theater.”
    Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, a Republican, on Wednesday said it is “very, highly unlikely” that Trump will win enough of the fewer than 45,000 ballots outstanding in Arizona to overcome Biden’s lead there.
   Brnovich, whose wife was appointed to the federal judiciary by Trump, also said during a Fox Business interview that his office had not found any evidence of ballot fraud.
   In Georgia, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger told Fox 5 Atlanta on Tuesday, “We have not found any widespread voter fraud.”
   “I understand half of the people will be happy, half of the people will be sad, but I want 100% of the people to understand that the process was fair and accurately counted,” Raffensperger said.
   Pennsylvania Lt. Gov. John Fetterman, a Democrat, in a CNN interview Wednesday said that the only known case of voter fraud “in Pennsylvania in this cycle, is a registered Republican in Luzerne County, [who] tried to vote for Trump with his dead mother’s ballot.”
   “And at some point, we all have to collectively accept that yelling ‘voter fraud’ when there is no evidence whatsoever of it is yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater,” Fetterman said. “It is harming the democratic franchise of our country and the peaceful transition of power, and we cannot accept that.”
   In Michigan, state Attorney General Dana Nessel also disputed claims of fraud by the Trump campaign.
   “The November elections in Michigan ran as smoothly as ever,” Nessel, a Democrat, said Wednesday.
   “Irregularities occur in every election, but there are multiple layers of protection to ensure that these irregularities are caught and rectified.”
   “Most of these are simple human error, not crimes,” she said.

I comment:
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 12, 2020, 06:58:28 AM
It does then apply to removing support for the President elect. A bit of embarasment for Republicans that I hope they come to regret in the future.   :)

No, it does not apply.

But I know, Rev Hannah, that you (and ALPB) cannot be wrong. You're from New York. So I acquiesce.

Oh yeah... 😊

Peace

As I said, "It's no big deal." The fact remains it has never happened before. What it's called makes little difference. By the way, I learned my American history in the Midwest.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 08:03:34 AM
Morning briefing, NYT
The political scientist Brendan Nyhan has often responded to events during the Trump presidency by asking a question: What would you say if you saw it in another country?
   Let’s try that exercise now. Imagine that a president of another country lost an election and refused to concede defeat. Instead, he lied about the vote count. He then filed lawsuits to have ballots thrown out, put pressure on other officials to back him up and used the power of government to prevent a transition of power from starting.
   How would you describe this behavior? It’s certainly anti-democratic. It is an attempt to overrule the will of the people, ignore a country’s laws and illegitimately grab political power.
   President Trump’s efforts will probably fail, but they are unlike anything that living Americans have experienced. “What we have seen in the last week from the president more closely resembles the tactics of the kind of authoritarian leaders we follow,” Michael Abramowitz, the president of Freedom House, which tracks democracy, told The Times. “I never would have imagined seeing something like this in America.”
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 08:22:39 AM
Morning briefing, NYT
The political scientist Brendan Nyhan has often responded to events during the Trump presidency by asking a question: What would you say if you saw it in another country?
   Let’s try that exercise now. Imagine that a president of another country lost an election and refused to concede defeat. Instead, he lied about the vote count. He then filed lawsuits to have ballots thrown out, put pressure on other officials to back him up and used the power of government to prevent a transition of power from starting.
   How would you describe this behavior? It’s certainly anti-democratic. It is an attempt to overrule the will of the people, ignore a country’s laws and illegitimately grab political power.
   President Trump’s efforts will probably fail, but they are unlike anything that living Americans have experienced. “What we have seen in the last week from the president more closely resembles the tactics of the kind of authoritarian leaders we follow,” Michael Abramowitz, the president of Freedom House, which tracks democracy, told The Times. “I never would have imagined seeing something like this in America.”
I think it is a good question of any election and of multiple facets of that election. It is the reason I would never support the Jeb Bush candidacy. If another country kept electing members of the same family, you smell something fishy. If Putin’s wife were elected, we’d roll our eyes, which is the correct response to Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama— whom did they think they’re kidding? And it is a good question about this election. Proof may be hard to establish, but there are plenty of anomalies involved that a rational person naturally is insulted when people demand he take them seriously. So people might go along with the result, but until they get an explanation, with backup evidence, for some of the fishy stuff that’s been going on, they’re going to treat it the way people in Illinois treat Mike Madigan— he is speaker of the house because everyone knows but nobody will risk trying to prove that he corrupt.

Biden will likely be president. But it will only be because he “won,” not because he won. If you don’t like that, you need to join with those demanding election transparency and accountability and quit labeling all such efforts as voter suppression.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 08:29:17 AM
P.S.
Not one word yesterday from the President about military veterans.
And he has not been attending meetings of what is left of his virus task force for weeks.

And to Peter:
May you never get invited to or attend a Trump event. You would drink the Kool Aid.
Hope we’re done here.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 12, 2020, 08:48:16 AM
P.S.
Not one word yesterday from the President about military veterans....

President Trump made the now traditional trip to Arlington National Cemetery and placed a wreath at the Tombs of the Unknown Soldiers.  Some national media covered that event, others have cancelled all things Trump for the duration.  I didn't watch/listen to the feed to know what if any words the President said there.  Perhaps you could check it out and report back.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 08:49:48 AM
P.S.
Not one word yesterday from the President about military veterans.
And he has not been attending meetings of what is left of his virus task force for weeks.

And to Peter:
May you never get invited to or attend a Trump event. You would drink the Kool Aid.
Hope we’re done here.
This is an area where you truly have zero knowledge. Everything I posted is perfectly mainstream opinion. You personally know (without being able to prove) that urban machines routinely rig elections. Unless, that is, you were the most credulous and naive person in New Jersey all those years. Heck, a judge in Philadelphia just pleaded guilty to having done just that in 2016. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 12, 2020, 08:52:42 AM
P.S.
Not one word yesterday from the President about military veterans....

President Trump made the now traditional trip to Arlington National Cemetery and placed a wreath at the Tombs of the Unknown Soldiers.  Some national media covered that event, others have cancelled all things Trump for the duration.  I didn't watch/listen to the feed to know what if any words the President said there.  Perhaps you could check it out and report back.

https://www.google.com/search?q=President+Donald+J.+Trump+commended+the+sacrifices+of+all+U.S.+veterans+in+a+Veterans+Day+proclamation+Wednesday,+adding+that+%22the+gravity+of+their+contribution+is+immeasurable.%22&sxsrf=ALeKk033fc3wAyhnHNAA567TOJWuoMBPVQ:1605188965238&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=mmnrSQvYZl0dpM%252CaALT0lnO86kQtM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRq_N9XVl7KbS11uL7cn8ovImwwqQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTt8fwkv3sAhUQCs0KHUMBByAQ9QF6BAgDEAY#imgrc=mmnrSQvYZl0dpM

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007449325/trump-veterans-day-appearance.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 12, 2020, 08:55:31 AM
...And from CNBC: “Do not expect him to concede,” a top aide told NBC.
...

Perhaps President Trump is simply following Never President-Elect Hillary Clinton's strident advice to Joe Biden in September: "Never Concede":
 https://pjmedia.com/election/matt-margolis/2020/11/11/president-trump-is-simply-following-hillary-clintons-advice-n1139021
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 09:03:48 AM
The far left is hoping that Biden will not govern in a centrist position (as Obama did in many ways trying to please both sides), but will move left, far left.  In an open letter to Biden, Michael Moore called for him to work toward abolishing the Electoral College, among other liberal causes.  And he is by no means alone.  He also urged Biden to pay attention to young Democrats under 35 years of age. A headline in the Washington Times from September had read: "Ocasio-Cortez says Biden can be pushed 'in a more progressive direction' once he's elected."

I know that the call for unity sounds politically proper, but I'm quite concerned that the force from the far left will have more influence than some want to admit.  Of course, as they say, 'time will tell.'

Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position. 



https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college (https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 12, 2020, 09:09:39 AM
The far left is hoping that Biden will not govern in a centrist position (as Obama did in many ways trying to please both sides), but will move left, far left.  In an open letter to Biden, Michael Moore called for him to work toward abolishing the Electoral College, among other liberal causes.  And he is by no means alone.  He also urged Biden to pay attention to young Democrats under 35 years of age. A headline in the Washington Times from September had read: "Ocasio-Cortez says Biden can be pushed 'in a more progressive direction' once he's elected."

I know that the call for unity sounds politically proper, but I'm quite concerned that the force from the far left will have more influence than some want to admit.  Of course, as they say, 'time will tell.'

Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position. 



https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college (https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college)

I think that the "Squad" (AOC and others) like to forget one important fact. They do not have the votes in Congress to achieve their goals. The same may be said for far right conservatives. America is constructed to withstand serious disruptions to the course of history.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 09:12:26 AM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.

The law, if passed, would greatly undermine the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which "which established a balancing test for religious freedom claims. It established a process for the litigation of discrimination grievances, where religious employers could appeal if found responsible for an offense and their actions could be fairly evaluated."

The article referenced below from USA Today, in an op-ed from 2019, outlines well the concerns conservative Christians now have. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/05/20/lgbtq-equality-act-fails-fair-religious-freedom-provisions-accommodation-column/3731197002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/05/20/lgbtq-equality-act-fails-fair-religious-freedom-provisions-accommodation-column/3731197002/)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 09:16:30 AM
The far left is hoping that Biden will not govern in a centrist position (as Obama did in many ways trying to please both sides), but will move left, far left.  In an open letter to Biden, Michael Moore called for him to work toward abolishing the Electoral College, among other liberal causes.  And he is by no means alone.  He also urged Biden to pay attention to young Democrats under 35 years of age. A headline in the Washington Times from September had read: "Ocasio-Cortez says Biden can be pushed 'in a more progressive direction' once he's elected."

I know that the call for unity sounds politically proper, but I'm quite concerned that the force from the far left will have more influence than some want to admit.  Of course, as they say, 'time will tell.'

Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position. 



https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college (https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college)

I think that the "Squad" (AOC and others) like to forget one important fact. They do not have the votes in Congress to achieve their goals. The same may be said for far right conservatives. America is constructed to withstand serious disruptions to the course of history.

Peace, JOHN

The majority in the House may be, as is observed, 'razor thin,' but the Senate is still up for grabs in some ways. Even if the Senate ends up evenly split, the vice president breaks the tie.  The ACA was created with a Democratic majority across those seats of power in the early early of the Obama administration.  I am not discounting the possibility for bold, liberal projects being launched in those early years of the Biden administration, especially, as I noted in my previous post, the Equality Act. I am concerned. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 12, 2020, 09:37:53 AM
Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position.

Assuming Moore thinks Biden should abolish the electoral college, it reveals a stunning ignorance of our Constitutional framework.

Abolishing the electoral college requires an amendment to the Constitution.  Under our system of government, the president has no role whatsoever to play in amending the Constitution.  He can cheerlead it, but he cannot offer a bill to enact it, nor vote on it, nor even veto it.  He is impotent to change the Constitution.  He is, at best, empowered to argue in favor of changing it.

Leaving aside the current impossibility of obtaining either 2/3 of both houses of Congress or 3/4 of state legislatures, Moore is appealing to the wrong leader here.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 09:41:10 AM
There may have been a statement issued from the White House, but I believe the president did not actually speak yesterday.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 09:45:31 AM
How long, Randy Bosch and others, will Mrs. Clinton be The scary thing you pull from behind your back to shake in the face of children to frighten them?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 09:46:39 AM
https://vashiva.com/dr-shiva-live-mit-phd-analysis-of-michigan-votes-reveals-unfortunate-truth-of-u-s-voting-systems/

This is the sort of conspiracy theory floating around out there. The thing to do is to answer it. And by answer it, I don't mean assure everyone that safeguards are in place to prevent cheating, or claim that this kooky MIT statistician is not to be taken seriously. That is avoiding it, which only lets the idea that the election is stolen fester.

Is his data wrong? Are his systemic assumptions flawed? Is there a perfectly reasonable explanation for what on the surface appears to be obvious chicanery? If so, let's hear it. Take up the argument. But the more the media simply shushes everyone, as they did with the Hunter Biden scandal, the more they simply lose credibility.

In this case, the argument is simple. The data in three Michigan counties (but not all counties) shows an unnaturally uniform correlation between the percentage of people in any given precinct who voted straight Republican and the degree to which Trump underperformed the straight Republican ticket. That is, Trump overperforms the GOP ticket at uniform rates in highly Dem precincts, but underperforms the GOP in Republican precincts. That is to be expected given the dynamics of the race. What is not to be expected and is not explicable (apart from algorithmic bias in the tabulation) is the uniform rate of underperformance in a straight diagonal line in all three counties. Barring the explanation that the votes were counted with a weighted bias factored in, what is the explanation?

I don't think most people will take Dr. Shiva seriously. He is a classic internet guru sleuth type. But if you want people taking for granted that elections were free and fair and not shady or dubious, then I think his recommendations are sound. For example, the way it is done in Michigan, the voting machine takes a picture of the ballot. It is that picture that is counted. But the pictures are not saved. An easy way to disprove algorithmic chicanery, which would be to do a recount manually, is not possible. It should be. There should be one to one correlation between physical, re-countable ballots and registered voters who voted. Where there isn't, why not?   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 12, 2020, 09:48:36 AM
I am not discounting the possibility for bold, liberal projects being launched in those early years of the Biden administration, especially, as I noted in my previous post, the Equality Act. I am concerned.

Elizabeth Warren as possible Treasury Secretary. Bernie possibly in the cabinet.

Ya think?!!
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 12, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
The far left is hoping that Biden will not govern in a centrist position (as Obama did in many ways trying to please both sides), but will move left, far left.  In an open letter to Biden, Michael Moore called for him to work toward abolishing the Electoral College, among other liberal causes.  And he is by no means alone.  He also urged Biden to pay attention to young Democrats under 35 years of age. A headline in the Washington Times from September had read: "Ocasio-Cortez says Biden can be pushed 'in a more progressive direction' once he's elected."

I know that the call for unity sounds politically proper, but I'm quite concerned that the force from the far left will have more influence than some want to admit.  Of course, as they say, 'time will tell.'

Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position. 



https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college (https://meaww.com/michael-moore-praised-social-media-demanding-biden-embrace-the-far-left-abolish-electoral-college)

I think that the "Squad" (AOC and others) like to forget one important fact. They do not have the votes in Congress to achieve their goals. The same may be said for far right conservatives. America is constructed to withstand serious disruptions to the course of history.

Peace, JOHN

The majority in the House may be, as is observed, 'razor thin,' but the Senate is still up for grabs in some ways. Even if the Senate ends up evenly split, the vice president breaks the tie.  The ACA was created with a Democratic majority across those seats of power in the early early of the Obama administration.  I am not discounting the possibility for bold, liberal projects being launched in those early years of the Biden administration, especially, as I noted in my previous post, the Equality Act. I am concerned.

True. The House has a majority of Democrats. The Senate might in a couple of months (probably not). Nonetheless that does not mean that the so called progressives will get the votes they need for their agenda. They won't. Not every Democrat is with Sanders, AOC, et. al. by any means.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 12, 2020, 09:56:56 AM
Two decades ago I was praying the Great Ektania during Vespers and at the beginning of the Sunday Liturgy in Advent for "William our President and for our unknown President-elect."
Your prayers in 2000 demonstrated not only a Godly neutrality in the secular political process ... but fully acknowledging the Biblical admonition in 1 Timothy 2
Quote from: 1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;


Notably lacking elsewhere among some forum members are the Biblically mandated prayers for President Trump and Vice President Pence, especially concerning when spreading deliberately false information concerning the presidents Veterans Day Observance. Such prevarications are hardly “good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.”


President Trump’s Veterans Day observance was reverent and respectful. Judgmental criticism of what was or wasn’t said or done is simple partisan wrangling and simply ignores 1 Timothy 2 above.

How long, Randy Bosch and others, will Mrs. Clinton be The scary thing you pull from behind your back to shake in the face of children to frighten them?
Probably as long as some continue to spew Orange Man Bad hateful screeds.🤭
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 12, 2020, 10:04:41 AM
How long, Randy Bosch and others, will Mrs. Clinton be The scary thing you pull from behind your back to shake in the face of children to frighten them?

Well, she keeps resurfacing on the News of her own accord and with their support.  She isn't a scary thing to me, she was your choice four years ago and that very fact caused the 2016 election to go for Donald Trump.  Deal with it.

Since change is brewing,
How long, Charles Austin and others, will Mr. Trump
Quote
be The scary thing you pull from behind your back to shake in the face of children to frighten them?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 12, 2020, 10:07:13 AM

I comment:
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?
Charles, you have spent the last four years denigrating, despising, and delegitimizing our duly elected president. Often you could not even bring yourself to call him by name but rather referring to him as the White House occupant as though he were a squatter there with no legitimate claim to the place or the office. You have regularly disparaged those who did not immediately join in your denigration of the president casting aspersions on their intelligence, awareness of current events, and moral character. You might understand then, if you could bring yourself to even consider much less understand any viewpoint other than your own, if I do not accept lesson in courtesy from you who rarely show courtesy to anyone not of your camp.


Yes, it is apparent that Joe Biden has won the election and that while there were some irregularities in the voting, those were not significant enough to affect the outcome. Much as the Russian interference in 2016 was present but not adequate to affect that outcome. Still if it was worth it to spend several years investigating allegations that Trump colluded with the Russians on the basis of flimsy, contrived evidence, surely it is worth it to investigate allegations of voting irregularities and lay them to rest.


At present, no election results have been certified. The last I looked, the Associated Press, much less CBS News or CNN, is not the legally designated agency for certifying election results. They have a good record for diligently and fairly reporting election results and are most likely correct in their election assessments. But that is not the same as officially certified results. So I will call Biden the presumptive President Elect until those results are certified. Meanwhile the current occupant of the White House is and remains the legitimate President of the United States and will remain so until he officially leaves office. Your approval is not necessary for his legitimacy.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Although I see abolishing the Electoral College as a huge long shot, it also sends a signal from the left that they would prefer a country of really only one view, one party position.

Assuming Moore thinks Biden should abolish the electoral college, it reveals a stunning ignorance of our Constitutional framework.

Abolishing the electoral college requires an amendment to the Constitution.  Under our system of government, the president has no role whatsoever to play in amending the Constitution.  He can cheerlead it, but he cannot offer a bill to enact it, nor vote on it, nor even veto it.  He is impotent to change the Constitution.  He is, at best, empowered to argue in favor of changing it.

Leaving aside the current impossibility of obtaining either 2/3 of both houses of Congress or 3/4 of state legislatures, Moore is appealing to the wrong leader here.

Thank you for clarifying that.  Not that I was greatly afraid of the imminent possibility, but I see the far left attempting to push hard for the radical agenda of the far left, and that far-fetched vision of Moore seems to be a signal that they think nothing is 'off the table.'  And considering the more conservative majorities in many of the state houses, you are correct that this is a virtual "impossibility" under the current structure.  I should just take a deep breath and trust that the system has a lot more 'checks and balances' than I am seeing in my post-election eyes.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 10:26:54 AM

I comment:
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?
So I will call Biden the presumptive President Elect until those results are certified. Meanwhile the current occupant of the White House is and remains the legitimate President of the United States and will remain so until he officially leaves office.

I think that this is both a respectful and technically proper way to address Biden at this stage.  I know that when he speaks the backdrop reads "Office of the President-Elect," but it is true that he is not that until the Electoral College formally votes.  Many of us admit he is the presumptive new leader and are not arguing that the upcoming legal battles are likely to change that prospect. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 12, 2020, 10:30:29 AM
President Trump is attempting to raise money even after he has been defeated at the ballot box.  Dana Milbank of The Washington Post fills us in on the scam.

"Sixty percent of the contribution, up to $5,000, goes to “Save America,” Trump’s newly created leadership PAC. And 40 percent of the contribution up to $35,500, goes to the Republican National Committee’s operating account, its political (not legal) fund.

Only after reaching the first maximum would a single penny go to Trump’s “Recount Account,” and only after reaching the second maximum would a penny go to the RNC’s legal account.

“It’s a straight-up bait and switch,” Paul S. Ryan, the vice president of policy and litigation at Common Cause, tells me. Such email solicitations target small donors, so for the “overwhelming majority of people contributing … none of their money will end up in recount accounts” or be used for otherwise challenging the election.

Rather, it will be used to extend Trump’s influence over the RNC during the Biden presidency and to build up his leadership PAC, which amounts to a “slush fund” for Trump’s personal use. “There is no limit to how much Donald Trump can pay himself or any member of his family under ‘Save America,’” Ryan notes."

Wake up and smell the coffee.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 10:35:22 AM

I comment:
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?
So I will call Biden the presumptive President Elect until those results are certified. Meanwhile the current occupant of the White House is and remains the legitimate President of the United States and will remain so until he officially leaves office.

I think that this is both a respectful and technically proper way to address Biden at this stage.  I know that when he speaks the backdrop reads "Office of the President-Elect," but it is true that he is not that until the Electoral College formally votes.  Many of us admit he is the presumptive new leader and are not arguing that the upcoming legal battles are likely to change that prospect.

I'll happily (well, maybe not always happily, but dutifully, consistently, and in good faith) refer to whomever is elected president by the designated electors as president-elect. That happens in mid-December. Presumably it will be Joe Biden. If by some happenstance it turns out to be Donald Trump, I'll expect the same from those who suspect there must have been some chicanery behind that unexpected, unlikely, and dubiously explained circumstance.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 12, 2020, 10:36:41 AM
Charles, you have spent the last four years denigrating, despising, and delegitimizing our duly elected president. Often you could not even bring yourself to call him by name but rather referring to him as the White House occupant as though he were a squatter there with no legitimate claim to the place or the office. You have regularly disparaged those who did not immediately join in your denigration of the president casting aspersions on their intelligence, awareness of current events, and moral character. You might understand then, if you could bring yourself to even consider much less understand any viewpoint other than your own, if I do not accept lesson in courtesy from you who rarely show courtesy to anyone not of your camp.

At present, no election results have been certified. The last I looked, the Associated Press, much less CBS News or CNN, is not the legally designated agency for certifying election results. They have a good record for diligently and fairly reporting election results and are most likely correct in their election assessments. But that is not the same as officially certified results. So I will call Biden the presumptive President Elect until those results are certified. Meanwhile the current occupant of the White House is and remains the legitimate President of the United States and will remain so until he officially leaves office. Your approval is not necessary for his legitimacy.

Thanks to Rev Fienen for correctly analyzing the hateful posts of some ... since CNN and CBS were mentioned by you, it may be helpful to note that Fox is creating news rather than reporting it ... a fact overlooked by some ...
Your right-wing media or Fox (which is, sad to say, mainstream), doesn't even pretend to present facts. It publishes outright lies and knows that it is publishing lies to advance a political agenda.

Yes ... right winged Fox has declared Biden President elect ... routinely “fact checks” the President and his press secretary and oh yes refers to Biden as president elect.

Really right wing stuff.🧐
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 10:37:34 AM
President Trump is attempting to raise money even after he has been defeated at the ballot box.  Dana Milbank of The Washington Post fills us in on the scam.

"Sixty percent of the contribution, up to $5,000, goes to “Save America,” Trump’s newly created leadership PAC. And 40 percent of the contribution up to $35,500, goes to the Republican National Committee’s operating account, its political (not legal) fund.

Only after reaching the first maximum would a single penny go to Trump’s “Recount Account,” and only after reaching the second maximum would a penny go to the RNC’s legal account.

“It’s a straight-up bait and switch,” Paul S. Ryan, the vice president of policy and litigation at Common Cause, tells me. Such email solicitations target small donors, so for the “overwhelming majority of people contributing … none of their money will end up in recount accounts” or be used for otherwise challenging the election.

Rather, it will be used to extend Trump’s influence over the RNC during the Biden presidency and to build up his leadership PAC, which amounts to a “slush fund” for Trump’s personal use. “There is no limit to how much Donald Trump can pay himself or any member of his family under ‘Save America,’” Ryan notes."

Wake up and smell the coffee.
If only you were so vigilant about the grifting of the Lincoln Project or the Clinton Foundation. If only you would wake up and smell the coffee concerning ALL children/relatives of politicians who somehow, amazingly, become millionaires without having any discernible skills.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 12, 2020, 10:50:03 AM
President Trump is attempting to raise money even after he has been defeated at the ballot box.  Dana Milbank of The Washington Post fills us in on the scam.

"Sixty percent of the contribution, up to $5,000, goes to “Save America,” Trump’s newly created leadership PAC. And 40 percent of the contribution up to $35,500, goes to the Republican National Committee’s operating account, its political (not legal) fund.

Only after reaching the first maximum would a single penny go to Trump’s “Recount Account,” and only after reaching the second maximum would a penny go to the RNC’s legal account.

“It’s a straight-up bait and switch,” Paul S. Ryan, the vice president of policy and litigation at Common Cause, tells me. Such email solicitations target small donors, so for the “overwhelming majority of people contributing … none of their money will end up in recount accounts” or be used for otherwise challenging the election.

Rather, it will be used to extend Trump’s influence over the RNC during the Biden presidency and to build up his leadership PAC, which amounts to a “slush fund” for Trump’s personal use. “There is no limit to how much Donald Trump can pay himself or any member of his family under ‘Save America,’” Ryan notes."

Wake up and smell the coffee.
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Renault: Oh, thank you very much.

Casablanca
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 12, 2020, 10:54:34 AM
President Trump is attempting to raise money even after he has been defeated at the ballot box.  Dana Milbank of The Washington Post fills us in on the scam.

"Sixty percent of the contribution, up to $5,000, goes to “Save America,” Trump’s newly created leadership PAC. And 40 percent of the contribution up to $35,500, goes to the Republican National Committee’s operating account, its political (not legal) fund.

Only after reaching the first maximum would a single penny go to Trump’s “Recount Account,” and only after reaching the second maximum would a penny go to the RNC’s legal account.

“It’s a straight-up bait and switch,” Paul S. Ryan, the vice president of policy and litigation at Common Cause, tells me. Such email solicitations target small donors, so for the “overwhelming majority of people contributing … none of their money will end up in recount accounts” or be used for otherwise challenging the election.

Rather, it will be used to extend Trump’s influence over the RNC during the Biden presidency and to build up his leadership PAC, which amounts to a “slush fund” for Trump’s personal use. “There is no limit to how much Donald Trump can pay himself or any member of his family under ‘Save America,’” Ryan notes."

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Wow, you're so right.  I'm voting for Democrats from now on.  They do none of this nefarious stuff and are pure as the wind driven snow.

Compelling argument.  Thank you for this public service Mr. Teigen.  I'm confident others will follow my lead here and vote the way you want them to vote.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 12, 2020, 10:58:36 AM
https://vashiva.com/dr-shiva-live-mit-phd-analysis-of-michigan-votes-reveals-unfortunate-truth-of-u-s-voting-systems/

This is the sort of conspiracy theory floating around out there. The thing to do is to answer it. And by answer it, I don't mean assure everyone that safeguards are in place to prevent cheating, or claim that this kooky MIT statistician is not to be taken seriously. That is avoiding it, which only lets the idea that the election is stolen fester.

Is his data wrong? Are his systemic assumptions flawed? Is there a perfectly reasonable explanation for what on the surface appears to be obvious chicanery? If so, let's hear it. Take up the argument. But the more the media simply shushes everyone, as they did with the Hunter Biden scandal, the more they simply lose credibility.

In this case, the argument is simple. The data in three Michigan counties (but not all counties) shows an unnaturally uniform correlation between the percentage of people in any given precinct who voted straight Republican and the degree to which Trump underperformed the straight Republican ticket. That is, Trump overperforms the GOP ticket at uniform rates in highly Dem precincts, but underperforms the GOP in Republican precincts. That is to be expected given the dynamics of the race. What is not to be expected and is not explicable (apart from algorithmic bias in the tabulation) is the uniform rate of underperformance in a straight diagonal line in all three counties. Barring the explanation that the votes were counted with a weighted bias factored in, what is the explanation?

I don't think most people will take Dr. Shiva seriously. He is a classic internet guru sleuth type. But if you want people taking for granted that elections were free and fair and not shady or dubious, then I think his recommendations are sound. For example, the way it is done in Michigan, the voting machine takes a picture of the ballot. It is that picture that is counted. But the pictures are not saved. An easy way to disprove algorithmic chicanery, which would be to do a recount manually, is not possible. It should be. There should be one to one correlation between physical, re-countable ballots and registered voters who voted. Where there isn't, why not?
I think it will be good for the country if we can maximize the number of people who believe the election was conducted fairly, even if they don't like the results.  For this reason, I think it is fine to allow legal challenges supported by specific allegations to be evaluated as provided by law.  But a word of caution about the multiplying "statistical proofs" of cheating.  It is one thing to do a statistical analysis to evaluate a clearly-defined hypothesis that has been formulated prior to analyzing the data (the technical term is a pre-specified hypothesis).  It is nearly worthless to point to even extreme anomalies in a large data set as proof of anything without having a pre-specified hypothesis, because it is nearly certain that any large data set will contain hugely improbable coincidences. 

To take an example from poker, suppose you are dealt a five-card hand consisting of the two of spades, the four of hearts, the six of diamonds, the eight of clubs, and the ten of spades.  This is a remarkable hand in that it includes all the suits and all the even numbers.  The odds of being dealt this exact hand are roughly 2.6 million to one against, making it rarer than a royal flush.  But it won't win you any money, because this unusual hand has not been "pre-specified" as a winner according to the rules of poker. 

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 12, 2020, 11:42:02 AM
It is the reason I would never support the Jeb Bush candidacy. If another country kept electing members of the same family, you smell something fishy.

You've got something against John Quincy Adams?  ;D
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 12, 2020, 11:45:07 AM
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?

I will not, simply because he is not yet the "President-Elect".  Let the system work.  The states do not yet have official election results and the electoral college has not yet voted.

And lest you accuse me of being a believer in the vote fraud conspiracy, I fully expect that Biden will be the "President-Elect" and will become President on January 20, 2021.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Coach-Rev on November 12, 2020, 11:47:00 AM
Coming from the very liberal Chicago Tribune (which I used to deliver as a kid),   I don't necessarily agree with every point, but this article's conclusions are spot on.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-joe-biden-unity-kass-20201111-umkzhjhwnzcspgcuismqebyvua-story.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 11:48:20 AM
Morning briefing, NYT
The political scientist Brendan Nyhan has often responded to events during the Trump presidency by asking a question: What would you say if you saw it in another country?
   Let’s try that exercise now. Imagine that a president of another country lost an election and refused to concede defeat. Instead, he lied about the vote count. He then filed lawsuits to have ballots thrown out, put pressure on other officials to back him up and used the power of government to prevent a transition of power from starting.
   How would you describe this behavior? It’s certainly anti-democratic. It is an attempt to overrule the will of the people, ignore a country’s laws and illegitimately grab political power.
   President Trump’s efforts will probably fail, but they are unlike anything that living Americans have experienced. “What we have seen in the last week from the president more closely resembles the tactics of the kind of authoritarian leaders we follow,” Michael Abramowitz, the president of Freedom House, which tracks democracy, told The Times. “I never would have imagined seeing something like this in America.”
I think it is a good question of any election and of multiple facets of that election. It is the reason I would never support the Jeb Bush candidacy. If another country kept electing members of the same family, you smell something fishy. If Putin’s wife were elected, we’d roll our eyes, which is the correct response to Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama— whom did they think they’re kidding? And it is a good question about this election. Proof may be hard to establish, but there are plenty of anomalies involved that a rational person naturally is insulted when people demand he take them seriously. So people might go along with the result, but until they get an explanation, with backup evidence, for some of the fishy stuff that’s been going on, they’re going to treat it the way people in Illinois treat Mike Madigan— he is speaker of the house because everyone knows but nobody will risk trying to prove that he corrupt.

Biden will likely be president. But it will only be because he “won,” not because he won. If you don’t like that, you need to join with those demanding election transparency and accountability and quit labeling all such efforts as voter suppression.


State officials after state officials, both Republican and Democrat, report no anomalies nor fishy stuff. So, what is the basis for your judgment?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 11:53:13 AM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 12:04:28 PM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law. 

I think that it is a very valid concern for those of us on the more conservative end of the spectrum who see the law as extreme and potentially harmful to conservative Christian organizations.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 12, 2020, 12:09:21 PM

Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

In the Senate, Senators are elected to represent their state (at large).  Representatives are elected to represent their Congressional District.  Most states split their party vote percentages at the polls somewhere (roughly) between 60-40 and 51-49.  This is probably true in many Congressional Districts, as well.  All elected by popular vote.
Nationwide, the party popular vote percentages are roughly 53/47 or so this time.

Now, check out Senate and House votes over the past 8 years. On the most visible issues, almost all Democrat and Republican Senators and Representatives vote straight party line, without regard to representing the "losing" minority (of up to 49% in many cases) in their state or district.

So, perhaps the assumption exists because on the big issues, it is verifiable.
As to Senators and their state, then most Senators don't represent the wishes of their people (perhaps only of those who elected them --- or their party) on many major issues.
Or not.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 12, 2020, 12:39:56 PM
Here is Maureen Dowd's perspective pn President Trump:   " Donald Trump’s resistance to the idea that he lost the election isn’t a surprise. This is a man, former star of a phony-reality TV show, who almost never admits he’s lost/failed/come in second at anything. Who knows what new adventures we’ll have before Inauguration Day? I’m hoping he’ll refuse to leave his room and security agents will end up carrying him out of the White House in a blanket.

Which blanket would then be shredded into little bitty tufts of cloth and sold to benefit Trump’s Official Election Defense Fund. Or perhaps its successor, the Make Mar-a-Lago Great Again Crusade."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 12:45:09 PM
Here is Maureen Dowd's perspective pn President Trump:   " Donald Trump’s resistance to the idea that he lost the election isn’t a surprise. This is a man, former star of a phony-reality TV show, who almost never admits he’s lost/failed/come in second at anything. Who knows what new adventures we’ll have before Inauguration Day? I’m hoping he’ll refuse to leave his room and security agents will end up carrying him out of the White House in a blanket.

Which blanket would then be shredded into little bitty tufts of cloth and sold to benefit Trump’s Official Election Defense Fund. Or perhaps its successor, the Make Mar-a-Lago Great Again Crusade."
That is about the quality of stuff we’ve come to expect from Maureen Dowd. Why you would post her stuff here is beyond me unless you’re just venting.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 01:08:45 PM
Peter, you have to understand that in the minds of many of us the President Trump is an unmitigated disaster, in every way, mentally, socially, in terms of the things he has done, how he has treated people, and concerning the way he has presented himself, his policies and our country. You may disagree with us on that, but this is how we feel and how we feel we must respond in order to make what we understand clear. I do not think it reaches anywhere near the level of vitriolic rhetoric that we have heard from right wing media, including Fox News and the “Medal of Honor” winner rush Limbaugh.
This is far from just “venting”, and I think it’s an insult for you to even suggest that. This is our concern for our country and what he has done to it and is still trying to do to it.
Now, God willing (I suppose in the minds of some by God’s will) he will be gone soon. Republicans need to understand how half the nation has responded to these last four years. I suspect that, once he is gone, and presumably can’t do anything to the cowards in Congress and in the republican party, they may speak up; they may be willing to cooperate with the new president. I certainly hope so.
But nothing at the present moment will erase the horror and disgust which some of us feel about not only the last four years but especially the last two weeks. Your attempts to put a benign face on his behavior and actions don’t work.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 12, 2020, 01:12:11 PM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law. 

I think that it is a very valid concern for those of us on the more conservative end of the spectrum who see the law as extreme and potentially harmful to conservative Christian organizations.

Even if the Senate flips it will take a 60% vote to pass it.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 01:18:02 PM
Peter, you have to understand that in the minds of many of us the President Trump is an unmitigated disaster, in every way, mentally, socially, in terms of the things he has done, how he has treated people, and concerning the way he has presented himself, his policies and our country. You may disagree with us on that, but this is how we feel and how we feel we must respond in order to make what we understand clear. I do not think it reaches anywhere near the level of vitriolic rhetoric that we have heard from right wing media, including Fox News and the “Medal of Honor” winner rush Limbaugh.
This is far from just “venting”, and I think it’s an insult for you to even suggest that. This is our concern for our country and what he has done to it and is still trying to do to it.
Now, God willing (I suppose in the minds of some by God’s will) he will be gone soon. Republicans need to understand how half the nation has responded to these last four years. I suspect that, once he is gone, and presumably can’t do anything to the cowards in Congress and in the republican party, they may speak up; they may be willing to cooperate with the new president. I certainly hope so.
But nothing at the present moment will erase the horror and disgust which some of us feel about not only the last four years but especially the last two weeks. Your attempts to put a benign face on his behavior and actions don’t work.
You’re worried you haven’t made your feelings about Trump sufficiently clear? Hmmmm. Maybe you should have posted an hourly tirade about how awful he is. Oh wait...
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 01:26:17 PM
Given that the election is, for all practical terms over, and the thread for that is closed, and we have a new thread about what life is like "now that the 2020 election is over...", I have been concentrating on the anticipated Biden administration and what that means for the future. I have tried to be substantive about projected policies and actions intended by the presumptive president-elect. However, it is beginning to seem that we can't quite go there yet until Trump is fully out of the picture.  As long as he remains, the anger against him remains. I understand that some feel deeply hurt by his time in the office. They believe that so many things he did were a disaster for the country. Some also feel that there were good things that came out of that administration.  However, I will not go there because the feelings toward Trump are so caustic and raw and full of vitriol that anything said of Trump that is intended to be positive will be seen as a lie and a case of disillusionment or distorting of the facts.

If our goal is to spend time I noting all the ways that Trump is bad, then perhaps I should wait for the air to clear when we can talk about Biden and the future.  I have no real interest in the latter.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 01:47:47 PM
https://vashiva.com/dr-shiva-live-mit-phd-analysis-of-michigan-votes-reveals-unfortunate-truth-of-u-s-voting-systems/

This is the sort of conspiracy theory floating around out there. The thing to do is to answer it. And by answer it, I don't mean assure everyone that safeguards are in place to prevent cheating, or claim that this kooky MIT statistician is not to be taken seriously. That is avoiding it, which only lets the idea that the election is stolen fester.

Is his data wrong? Are his systemic assumptions flawed? Is there a perfectly reasonable explanation for what on the surface appears to be obvious chicanery? If so, let's hear it. Take up the argument. But the more the media simply shushes everyone, as they did with the Hunter Biden scandal, the more they simply lose credibility.

In this case, the argument is simple. The data in three Michigan counties (but not all counties) shows an unnaturally uniform correlation between the percentage of people in any given precinct who voted straight Republican and the degree to which Trump underperformed the straight Republican ticket. That is, Trump overperforms the GOP ticket at uniform rates in highly Dem precincts, but underperforms the GOP in Republican precincts. That is to be expected given the dynamics of the race. What is not to be expected and is not explicable (apart from algorithmic bias in the tabulation) is the uniform rate of underperformance in a straight diagonal line in all three counties. Barring the explanation that the votes were counted with a weighted bias factored in, what is the explanation?

I don't think most people will take Dr. Shiva seriously. He is a classic internet guru sleuth type. But if you want people taking for granted that elections were free and fair and not shady or dubious, then I think his recommendations are sound. For example, the way it is done in Michigan, the voting machine takes a picture of the ballot. It is that picture that is counted. But the pictures are not saved. An easy way to disprove algorithmic chicanery, which would be to do a recount manually, is not possible. It should be. There should be one to one correlation between physical, re-countable ballots and registered voters who voted. Where there isn't, why not?
I think it will be good for the country if we can maximize the number of people who believe the election was conducted fairly, even if they don't like the results.  For this reason, I think it is fine to allow legal challenges supported by specific allegations to be evaluated as provided by law.  But a word of caution about the multiplying "statistical proofs" of cheating.  It is one thing to do a statistical analysis to evaluate a clearly-defined hypothesis that has been formulated prior to analyzing the data (the technical term is a pre-specified hypothesis).  It is nearly worthless to point to even extreme anomalies in a large data set as proof of anything without having a pre-specified hypothesis, because it is nearly certain that any large data set will contain hugely improbable coincidences. 

To take an example from poker, suppose you are dealt a five-card hand consisting of the two of spades, the four of hearts, the six of diamonds, the eight of clubs, and the ten of spades.  This is a remarkable hand in that it includes all the suits and all the even numbers.  The odds of being dealt this exact hand are roughly 2.6 million to one against, making it rarer than a royal flush.  But it won't win you any money, because this unusual hand has not been "pre-specified" as a winner according to the rules of poker. 

Peace,
Jon
I don't think that analogy holds, for the simple reason that elections have built-in pre-specified rule that the most votes wins. Anything that systemically skews in the same direction once actual candidate preference has been accounted for becomes evidence of manipulation. It is not as complex as poker. More like playing War with kids. My kids used to rig the deck before challenging me. Amazingly, they would have all aces and kings to start off the game.

Say, for example, that you discovered that everyone whose last name began with B voted for Biden. That would be clear evidence of vote tampering or fraud if the sample size were more than a few hundred. But there is no way you could have that hypothesis in advance. You'd have to discover it. To put it in poker terms, if an ace falls out of the dealer's sleeve, that is evidence of cheating even if you didn't hypothesize in advance he was cheating and couldn't prove empirically that he won any given hand by cheating. In one of LBJ's rigged elections, the people handling it forgot to stagger their fake votes, so it turned out his voters supposedly voted in alphabetical order.

In the case at hand, (again, I've not analyzed the data myself, so I can't vouch that his graphs are accurate) there is a clear skew that is best explained by an algorithm weighting the votes. Where common sense would expect a more or less straight horizontal line, as in War common sense would expect a more or less equal distribution of high cards in either half of the shuffled deck, we get instead a clear, straight diagonal line, nve that would be easy to produce with a weighted algorithm and very hard to explain any other way. It isn't as though he discovered an anomaly that is mere correlation, like those standard "If the Redskins win the week before the election, a Republican wins the white house," kind of thing, where they're just retrofitting circumstances from a huge pool of noise data to find one that matches.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: aletheist on November 12, 2020, 02:09:43 PM
The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law.
No, bills passed by only one house do not carry over to the next Congress, they would have to be passed again by both houses. And as John Hannah already noted, any bill in the Senate needs 60 votes to end debate, since Joe Manchin of West Virginia has reaffirmed that he will not vote to abolish the filibuster even if the Democrats take control (50-50 plus VP Harris) by winning both Georgia runoffs. The only exception is budget reconciliation, which I doubt would be a viable mechanism for passing the Equality Act.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 02:20:21 PM
Last night I watched "The Trial of the Chicago 7," a fine movie written and directed by the magnificent Aaron Sorkin. Those events, too, were during a time of great national division over the war. Johnson was vilified, the mounting deaths were on the minds of the tens of thousands of demonstrators in the streets of Chicago. The "Justice Department" illegally plotted against the demonstrators; the Chicago police gave brutality a face seen by the whole world. The Kerner Commission would later call it a "police riot." (I watched some of it as a reporter and was chased through the streets by baton-wielding cops. I can testify that it hurts to be hit by those "batons.")
  Black Panther Bobby Seale, who began the trial of the "Chicago 8" got a mistrial declared after Judge Julius Hoffman had him bound and gagged in the courtroom. So the eight became seven.
   The Seven - Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, David Dellenger, John Froines, and Lee Weiner - went on trial allegedly for inciting a riot, but it was actually a part of a revolution of opposition to and disgust for the Vietnam war. Some were rude, profane, disruptive, impolite and sarcastic. They had been such since the beginning of the Chicago demonstrations, except that Tom Hayden was a more "moderate" voice seeking "political" solutions rather than social revolution.
    My point is that it was the rude, sarcastic, profane, impolite, and revolutionary tactics that "won." Even Tom Hayden, later a "conventional" politician in the California Assembly and Senate recognized the need to be disruptive, loud and impolite. William Kunstler, generally considered a "radical" lawyer said he became even more radical as the trial progressed and the government misuse of power became more and more evident.
    The focus then was Lyndon Johnson, the Democrats (except for the anti-war Democrats, and there were many), the Justice Department and the unending expanding of the war. The trial in 1969 was a turning point in solidifying opposition to the war. And the trial itself revealed the depth of the government's misuse of its powers.
    The seven, Bobby Seale, and literally tens of thousands of others risked much, even death, to oppose the injustice of the war. They went after an entire administration from the President on down. And, though it took some more years, they prevailed.
     I make no apologies for being angry with those who gloss over the errors of President Trump, his trashing of our democracy and the attitudes of his aides who supported him as he brought us to the brink. This president has spent more time massaging his ego and seeking re-election than he has in caring about the people who have died or the virus that was killing them.
    On that last matter, there are parallels between 1969 and today. People are dying in a war and the president and government won't admit they are losing it.
   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 02:22:13 PM
The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law.
No, bills passed by only one house do not carry over to the next Congress, they would have to be passed again by both houses. And as John Hannah already noted, any bill in the Senate needs 60 votes to end debate, since Joe Manchin of West Virginia has reaffirmed that he will not vote to abolish the filibuster even if the Democrats take control (50-50 plus VP Harris) by winning both Georgia runoffs. The only exception is budget reconciliation, which I doubt would be a viable mechanism for passing the Equality Act.

Thank you for the clarification.  This is not in my realm of expertise.  I then take some renewed comfort, given the slimmer margin of Democratic majority for the next congress, and the possibility of a Republican controlled Senate, that this act may not yet see the light of day.  Yet.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 12, 2020, 02:26:27 PM
Peter, you have to understand that in the minds of many of us the President Trump is an unmitigated disaster, in every way, mentally, socially, in terms of the things he has done, how he has treated people, and concerning the way he has presented himself, his policies and our country. You may disagree with us on that, but this is how we feel and how we feel we must respond in order to make what we understand clear.

Maureen Dowd  was fine, right up until she started with, "I’m hoping he’ll refuse to leave his room and security agents will end up carrying him out of the White House in a blanket. Which blanket would then be shredded into little bitty tufts of cloth and sold to benefit Trump’s Official Election Defense Fund. Or perhaps its successor, the Make Mar-a-Lago Great Again Crusade."

That's childish, even Trumpian behavior. She was acting like a child throwing a tantrum. I would expect a columnist on the Times opinion page to behave better.

But then, you used to work for the Times, so maybe I shouldn't expect it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 02:42:24 PM
Last night I watched "The Trial of the Chicago 7," a fine movie written and directed by the magnificent Aaron Sorkin. Those events, too, were during a time of great national division over the war. Johnson was vilified, the mounting deaths were on the minds of the tens of thousands of demonstrators in the streets of Chicago. The "Justice Department" illegally plotted against the demonstrators; the Chicago police gave brutality a face seen by the whole world. The Kerner Commission would later call it a "police riot." (I watched some of it as a reporter and was chased through the streets by baton-wielding cops. I can testify that it hurts to be hit by those "batons.")
  Black Panther Bobby Seale, who began the trial of the "Chicago 8" got a mistrial declared after Judge Julius Hoffman had him bound and gagged in the courtroom. So the eight became seven.
   The Seven - Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, David Dellenger, John Froines, and Lee Weiner - went on trial allegedly for inciting a riot, but it was actually a part of a revolution of opposition to and disgust for the Vietnam war. Some were rude, profane, disruptive, impolite and sarcastic. They had been such since the beginning of the Chicago demonstrations, except that Tom Hayden was a more "moderate" voice seeking "political" solutions rather than social revolution.
    My point is that it was the rude, sarcastic, profane, impolite, and revolutionary tactics that "won." Even Tom Hayden, later a "conventional" politician in the California Assembly and Senate recognized the need to be disruptive, loud and impolite. William Kunstler, generally considered a "radical" lawyer said he became even more radical as the trial progressed and the government misuse of power became more and more evident.
    The focus then was Lyndon Johnson, the Democrats (except for the anti-war Democrats, and there were many), the Justice Department and the unending expanding of the war. The trial in 1969 was a turning point in solidifying opposition to the war. And the trial itself revealed the depth of the government's misuse of its powers.
    The seven, Bobby Seale, and literally tens of thousands of others risked much, even death, to oppose the injustice of the war. They went after an entire administration from the President on down. And, though it took some more years, they prevailed.
     I make no apologies for being angry with those who gloss over the errors of President Trump, his trashing of our democracy and the attitudes of his aides who supported him as he brought us to the brink. This president has spent more time massaging his ego and seeking re-election than he has in caring about the people who have died or the virus that was killing them.
    On that last matter, there are parallels between 1969 and today. People are dying in a war and the president and government won't admit they are losing it.
   
Good movie. The one in modern times whose rude, sarcastic, profane, and impolite behavior was required to disrupt a fundamentally corrupt establishment is Donald Trump. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: jebutler on November 12, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
Thank you for the clarification.  This is not in my realm of expertise.  I then take some renewed comfort, given the slimmer margin of Democratic majority for the next congress, and the possibility of a Republican controlled Senate, that this act may not yet see the light of day.  Yet.

When I lived in Illinois, which had a line-item veto, the Democratic House and Senate would pass outrageous things in the budget knowing that the Republican governor would veto them and that they couldn't override his veto. That way, they could blame him for things they knew were unrealistic.

The House acted the same way. They knew the Equality Act wouldn't go anywhere--if it didn't die in the Senate, it would be vetoed and that would end it. But it was a piece of feel-good legislation. The Republican House played the same game in passing a bill that repealed Obamacare.

The power in the House will lie with the more moderate Democrats. Pelosi doesn't have the margins she's had in the past. She will need every Democrat to agree. It would only take a few Dems to vote with the Republicans to pass alternate legislation. Come to think of it, it wouldn't take much for a more moderate Democrat to replace her as Speaker.

I personally find it sad--and frustrating--that the members of the so-called Squad get so much press on both the right and the left. They are five out of 435. They are all from very safe districts--everyone knows that the real election for those seats is the primary, the November election is merely a formality. But they are from high media areas--like New York and Boston--and that's what gives them all of the attention.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 12, 2020, 02:49:38 PM

I comment:
Can everyone in this modest forum now do our country the courtesy of referring to Biden as “President-Elect”?
So I will call Biden the presumptive President Elect until those results are certified. Meanwhile the current occupant of the White House is and remains the legitimate President of the United States and will remain so until he officially leaves office.

I think that this is both a respectful and technically proper way to address Biden at this stage.  I know that when he speaks the backdrop reads "Office of the President-Elect," but it is true that he is not that until the Electoral College formally votes.  Many of us admit he is the presumptive new leader and are not arguing that the upcoming legal battles are likely to change that prospect.

It's called arrogation, "to make undue claims to having." [M-W] It's designed to make you think someone has authority because it looks like they do. There is no office of President-Elect. If there were, as stated above, Biden is not there yet.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 03:17:53 PM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law. 

I think that it is a very valid concern for those of us on the more conservative end of the spectrum who see the law as extreme and potentially harmful to conservative Christian organizations.


How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 03:21:50 PM

Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

In the Senate, Senators are elected to represent their state (at large).  Representatives are elected to represent their Congressional District.  Most states split their party vote percentages at the polls somewhere (roughly) between 60-40 and 51-49.  This is probably true in many Congressional Districts, as well.  All elected by popular vote.
Nationwide, the party popular vote percentages are roughly 53/47 or so this time.

Now, check out Senate and House votes over the past 8 years. On the most visible issues, almost all Democrat and Republican Senators and Representatives vote straight party line, without regard to representing the "losing" minority (of up to 49% in many cases) in their state or district.

So, perhaps the assumption exists because on the big issues, it is verifiable.
As to Senators and their state, then most Senators don't represent the wishes of their people (perhaps only of those who elected them --- or their party) on many major issues.
Or not.


The following video shows that it wasn't always so.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEczkhfLwqM

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 12, 2020, 03:36:17 PM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law. 

I think that it is a very valid concern for those of us on the more conservative end of the spectrum who see the law as extreme and potentially harmful to conservative Christian organizations.


How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.

You are wrong. St. Paul says that anyone who is able but who doesn’t support his own household has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. I suppose that is just another example of him confusing some interpretation of how a supposed moral rule should be applied with the essence of the faith.
Title: Republicans in state Senate plan to review Pa. election results
Post by: James J Eivan on November 12, 2020, 03:42:30 PM

JULIAN ROUTH
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
jrouth@post-gazette.com

 
NOV 12, 2020
11:38 AMContinuing their push to use the official levers of state government to scrutinize and review last Tuesday’s election, Republicans in Harrisburg said Wednesday they now plan to use the Senate State Government Committee to review the results.



A day after its counterpart in the House said it would hold hearings of its own on the election, the Senate committee said it would “immediately undertake a thorough review of the state’s election in order to instill confidence in the results.”"We will continue our fight to uphold Pennsylvania law and the Constitution to ensure that faith in our election system is restored," read a written statement, crafted by Senate President Pro Tempore Joe Scarnati, Senate Majority Leader Jake Corman and Sen. John DiSanto, the chair of the committee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-state/2020/11/11/Pennsylvania-election-results-2020-PA-state-Senate-review-results-voting/stories/202011110187 (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-state/2020/11/11/Pennsylvania-election-results-2020-PA-state-Senate-review-results-voting/stories/202011110187)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 12, 2020, 03:45:03 PM
How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.
What it sounds to me is that you are arrogating to yourself the right to define for everyone who claims the name Christian what is essential to the faith and what are mere personal convictions that can be denied without any affect on the Christian faith.


If the Equality Act somehow outlaws the moral conviction that homosexual sexual activity is contrary to God's will, or makes acting on that conviction illegal, well that does nothing against what is the genuine Christian faith so real religious freedom is not impinged upon. I am Christian, that doesn't bother my faith, so it should not yours either. Just get better moral convictions.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 04:26:14 PM
Among the liberal causes Biden is pledged to support and work toward, as I mentioned upstream some posts ago, is the Equality Act. Of course, if the Senate remains in Republican control it stands less of a chance of passing.  But the Senate's control is not settled, as the runoff election in Georgia proves.  If the Senate ends up evenly split, Kamala Harris becomes the majority in contested votes.



Why is there the assumption that all Republicans and all Democrats will always vote with their party? They are elected to represent the people of their state.

The Equality Act already passed the United States House of Representatives on May 17, 2019 in a bipartisan 236–173 vote.The United States Senate received the bill for consideration on May 20, 2019, but it remains there without action.  If the Senate 'flips' or if it is deadlocked with a vote from Harris to break a tie, then that house could take up the already passed bill and pass it there, sending it to Biden who has already signaled he would sign it into law. 

I think that it is a very valid concern for those of us on the more conservative end of the spectrum who see the law as extreme and potentially harmful to conservative Christian organizations.


How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.

Others have shared some good responses to this, but my initial concern about the Equality Act is not whether it would impact the truth of Christ.  It cannot. No law can. But if enacted and passed into law, it could be used against Christian organizations like adoption agencies, day schools, and colleges/universities, to threaten the loss of federal funding (such as student aid, for example) if full compliance is not given, that is, if people practicing lifestyles considered sinful and contrary to God's Word (as per the convictions of the organization) are not hired and given equal opportunity for employment. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 12, 2020, 04:29:14 PM
How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.
What it sounds to me is that you are arrogating to yourself the right to define for everyone who claims the name Christian what is essential to the faith and what are mere personal convictions that can be denied without any affect on the Christian faith.


If the Equality Act somehow outlaws the moral conviction that homosexual sexual activity is contrary to God's will, or makes acting on that conviction illegal, well that does nothing against what is the genuine Christian faith so real religious freedom is not impinged upon. I am Christian, that doesn't bother my faith, so it should not yours either. Just get better moral convictions.

And if you want to know why Christians can vote for a man like Donald Trump in great numbers, this right here is at the heart of it.

Religious freedom means nothing if it means only the liberty to worship, but not live and believe and think, according to my own religious values and principles.  I don't need Pastor Stoffregen to tell me what is true and right.  I certainly don't need Joe Biden or Kamala Harris.  And I'll be voting in the Senate races here in Georgia primarily over the threat of court packing, which would threaten the Supreme Court's firewall against infringement of those liberties.

People who don't like Donald Trump like to point out how immoral he is.  But their answer to him, Joe Biden, has promised to continue suing nuns, who have won twice at the Supreme Court, because apparently it is too much to leave them alone.  Someone else's politics does not inform my religion, and thanks be to God we have a strong majority of the Supreme Court willing to say so.  9 members of the Court rebuked the last attempt, but 2 formed a special concurrence in the judgment only (Kagan, joined by Breyer).  2 more dissented, claiming the Little Sisters of the Poor enjoy no religious right to avoid paying for abortifacient medications.  1 of those was recently replaced by Amy Coney Barrett.  And that has Democrats hopping mad.  Not that they cannot forge policies to help women attain healthcare, because surely they can.  But rather that they cannot force nuns to pay for it, and if they try the Supreme Court won't let them.

I'll swallow a lot of manure from a bad Republican candidate to stop people like that.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 04:39:33 PM
How would it harm the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Lord?


I think what you mean is that it would harm the moral conviction of some conservative Christians. What one believes about homosexual relationships or civil rights, is not what makes someone a Christian.
What it sounds to me is that you are arrogating to yourself the right to define for everyone who claims the name Christian what is essential to the faith and what are mere personal convictions that can be denied without any affect on the Christian faith.


If the Equality Act somehow outlaws the moral conviction that homosexual sexual activity is contrary to God's will, or makes acting on that conviction illegal, well that does nothing against what is the genuine Christian faith so real religious freedom is not impinged upon. I am Christian, that doesn't bother my faith, so it should not yours either. Just get better moral convictions.

And if you want to know why Christians can vote for a man like Donald Trump in great numbers, this right here is at the heart of it.

Religious freedom means nothing if it means only the liberty to worship, but not live and believe and think, according to my own religious values and principles.  I don't need Pastor Stoffregen to tell me what is true and right.  I certainly don't need Joe Biden or Kamala Harris.  And I'll be voting in the Senate races here in Georgia primarily over the threat of court packing, which would threaten the Supreme Court's firewall against infringement of those liberties.


I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.


Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 12, 2020, 04:57:17 PM
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.

Well, as long as we have the strong "harmful to others (according to Pastor Stoffregen and people who agree with him)" standard, I guess we'll all be okay, huh?

Of course, the reality is it isn't that simple, and because the 1st Amendment protects my rights, I don't want it to be.  So I'll rest on the Supreme Court's wise counsel in these matters and vote against buffoons who would pack that court with like-minded ideologues who want to overturn the 1st Amendment, if not directly, certainly by judicial fiat.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 12, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.

So, I'm assuming you would be okay, then, with conservative Christian universities and colleges accepting federal aid given to students to pay their tuition? The "business" is not asking for that money, the student is.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2020, 06:05:28 PM
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.

Well, as long as we have the strong "harmful to others (according to Pastor Stoffregen and people who agree with him)" standard, I guess we'll all be okay, huh?

Of course, the reality is it isn't that simple, and because the 1st Amendment protects my rights, I don't want it to be.  So I'll rest on the Supreme Court's wise counsel in these matters and vote against buffoons who would pack that court with like-minded ideologues who want to overturn the 1st Amendment, if not directly, certainly by judicial fiat.


The 1st Amendment also protects the rights of your neighbor. If your neighbors do not want a church/synagogue/temple built in their neighborhood, that can (and have) kept the land from being zoned for a religious building. There are places where you are not allowed to have a Bible study in your home; not because they are studying the Bible, because the housing area and parking area are not zoned or equipped for such gatherings. The 1st Amendment doesn't allow people to do whatever they want to do under the umbrella of freedom of religion. There are limits.


While not universally true, the state allows the Amish to drive their horse-drawn carts on the road, but they are required to use the slow moving vehicle sign on them. Christian Scientists are allowed to let God heal the sick, but when their religion puts children in danger of death or a child dies, there can be legal repercussions as in this case: https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/23/us/supreme-court-roundup-christian-scientists-rebuffed-in-ruling-by-supreme-court.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 07:06:39 PM
Some portions of the Amish community actually sued Pennsylvania contending that the bright orange triangle required for their buggies violated their moral objection to "decorations" or some such frippery. They lost.
As everyone here knows, the question of the aid going to the students or to the school is a multi-faceted, tough one not easy to sort. Personally, I don't think I have too much objection, but it's not an issue for which I am willing to mount the barricades on one side or another. I do worry about anything that would undercut support for public schools, which educate the vast majority of our young people.
And should a church - whether congregation, synod, district, diocese or denomination - desire to have a school run totally under whatever doctrinal provisions held by that entity, they are free to do so. If someone who does not subscribe to those doctrinal provisions applies for a job there, I have no objection to the school saying "you cannot work here unless...." OTOH, if federal or state money is somehow flowing into that school....
Just teaching that gay marriage is an abomination in the sight of God to be shunned by all faithful believers is not in itself "hate speech." But using state funds to in any way spread that teaching is another problem.
I hope that in considering the future of education, we do not get locked in, hung up, tightly-wrapped or breathless over the "religious freedom" thing. There are more critical issues in education and in the land that need our attention.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Commencement2020 on November 12, 2020, 08:22:01 PM
Did a Michigan County Threaten to Demolish Amish Homes Unless They Were Upgraded?  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/michigan-county-amish-homes/  (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/michigan-county-amish-homes/)

A little over 100 years ago, Hutterites Joseph and Michael Hofer died following their torture. Following this, their large extended family left for Canada. Since then some returned, but most still live in Canada.

https://www.goshen.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/75/2016/06/Apr11Stoltzfus.pdf (https://www.goshen.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/75/2016/06/Apr11Stoltzfus.pdf) Armed With Prayer in an Alcatraz Dungeon: The Wartime Experiences of Four Hutterite C.O.'s in Their Own Words

Prior to the Japanese Internment, there was a mass sweep where they arrested all the clergy and other community leaders--including Christian pastors who were ethnically Japanese.

During WWI, German Lutherans in a number of states were subject to laws preventing them from educating children or preaching in German. Extensive and harassing investigations were conducted by the FBI. Clergy were targeted--on the basis of hearsay, they seized pastor's personal stockpiles of old mail and went through it, looking for contacts.

It isn't just the Amish or Hutterites.

They lost their daycare over accusations deemed unfounded. Now they’ve lost their church, too
https://www.bradenton.com/news/local/article223613710.html (https://www.bradenton.com/news/local/article223613710.html)

and

A subheading: "Case Manager Tells Family to Stop Attending Church"  https://medicalkidnap.com/2015/05/02/daughters-removed-from-home-because-of-their-parents-christian-faith/ (https://medicalkidnap.com/2015/05/02/daughters-removed-from-home-because-of-their-parents-christian-faith/)

The children were ordered to get 10 hours of sleep & evening services got in the way of that. Not everything on medicalkidnap.com is reliable, but this description appears to be honest.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2020, 09:05:45 PM
Thread drift. No, thread tsunami. WTH?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Commencement2020 on November 12, 2020, 09:34:23 PM
Quote
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears

Some Amish as of at least the beginning of this year were threatened with having their homes bulldozed.

There are 35,010 Hutterites in Canada as of 2016. How many countries out there have 35k or more religious refugees? I suppose Israel, Iraq, Syria, etc. Not a list you want your country to join.

The other examples are to show it isn't just an isolated thing. The government has a spotted track record on freedom of religion.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 12, 2020, 11:31:22 PM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:08:42 AM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 12:21:07 AM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
And as long as the words don’t mean anything, they suffice for you today. And as long as they mean what orthodox doctrine says they mean, they suffice for me today.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 13, 2020, 12:22:02 AM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
Did Paul find it sufficient that nothing else was needed and no disagreements so long as that was agreed to?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 13, 2020, 12:26:15 AM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.

Quite sufficient as a ticket to the Executioner's block or to the Stadium.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2020, 04:52:57 AM
And nearly all of those executioners’ blocks were owned and operated by established regimes attempting to keep segments of the populace under control, suppress dissent and remove troublemakers who dared to challenge the established order.
   Christians indeed suffered and died. Then, when they came to power, Christians took ownership of the executioners’ blocks. The bloody tide of ideological oppression ebbed and flowed.
   There is no bloody tide reaching the beaches of our land. We have instead trivialized persecution and monetized flawed concepts of “freedom”.
   -Is my child’s teacher gay and married? Oh, no! My faith is under attack!
  -So I can’t strip-mine a mountain or operate a factory that kills and sickens workers and neighbors? Oh, no! My freedom is under attack!
  -You say I cannot refuse services to people of a different race or lifestyle? Oh, no! You won’t let me practice my religion!
  -You won’t force nonbelievers to have their taxes run my church schools and propagate my faith? Oh, no! That’s religious persecution!
Do we really think that acknowledging the marriage of that gay teacher, selling clothing or cakes to gay couples, accepting regulations to save our neighbor’s health and clean air and water or being denied public funds for parish schools is a loss of true freedom or is religious oppression marching us towards an executioners’ block?
  We should give the new administration a chance. We should have a serious discussion, not project the worst.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 08:48:44 AM
I look at how the U.S. allows the Amish to live their beliefs and I have little fears that the government would force compliance, except where a business wants state money, or their practices are harmful to others.

Well, as long as we have the strong "harmful to others (according to Pastor Stoffregen and people who agree with him)" standard, I guess we'll all be okay, huh?

Of course, the reality is it isn't that simple, and because the 1st Amendment protects my rights, I don't want it to be.  So I'll rest on the Supreme Court's wise counsel in these matters and vote against buffoons who would pack that court with like-minded ideologues who want to overturn the 1st Amendment, if not directly, certainly by judicial fiat.


The 1st Amendment also protects the rights of your neighbor. If your neighbors do not want a church/synagogue/temple built in their neighborhood, that can (and have) kept the land from being zoned for a religious building. There are places where you are not allowed to have a Bible study in your home; not because they are studying the Bible, because the housing area and parking area are not zoned or equipped for such gatherings. The 1st Amendment doesn't allow people to do whatever they want to do under the umbrella of freedom of religion. There are limits.


While not universally true, the state allows the Amish to drive their horse-drawn carts on the road, but they are required to use the slow moving vehicle sign on them. Christian Scientists are allowed to let God heal the sick, but when their religion puts children in danger of death or a child dies, there can be legal repercussions as in this case: https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/23/us/supreme-court-roundup-christian-scientists-rebuffed-in-ruling-by-supreme-court.html

Literally no one has suggested the First Amendment is unlimited.  But neither is it as limited as you all would like to believe.

Every time liberal groupthink runs up against First Amendment protections, you all side with liberal groupthink.  That is the problem.  You want to force people to adopt your views.

Some portions of the Amish community actually sued Pennsylvania contending that the bright orange triangle required for their buggies violated their moral objection to "decorations" or some such frippery. They lost.
As everyone here knows, the question of the aid going to the students or to the school is a multi-faceted, tough one not easy to sort. Personally, I don't think I have too much objection, but it's not an issue for which I am willing to mount the barricades on one side or another. I do worry about anything that would undercut support for public schools, which educate the vast majority of our young people.
And should a church - whether congregation, synod, district, diocese or denomination - desire to have a school run totally under whatever doctrinal provisions held by that entity, they are free to do so. If someone who does not subscribe to those doctrinal provisions applies for a job there, I have no objection to the school saying "you cannot work here unless...." OTOH, if federal or state money is somehow flowing into that school....
Just teaching that gay marriage is an abomination in the sight of God to be shunned by all faithful believers is not in itself "hate speech." But using state funds to in any way spread that teaching is another problem.
I hope that in considering the future of education, we do not get locked in, hung up, tightly-wrapped or breathless over the "religious freedom" thing. There are more critical issues in education and in the land that need our attention.

Yes.  It would be awful if you couldn't force Christian schools to hire gay teachers wouldn't it?

Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.

If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.

I'll remember that the next time you go on a screed about closed communion or female pastors.  "You're all ever so mean!"

"Jesus is Lord was sufficient in biblical times!"

It's like a handy little talisman that allows one to wave away any legitimate discussion through the most absurd reductionism ever.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 08:52:18 AM
Now that I have taken a few days to learn more about the history of the Equality Act and the dynamics that may be in play once this election is settled, I realize that the chances of it taking form as this current congress envisioned are probably not as high.  With a razor think majority in the House it will be more difficult to pass legislation that is controversial, and maybe that will bring about a bit more bi-partisan dialogue.  I remain hopeful that the Senate will stay in Republican control, even if that, too, is a 'razor thin' majority.  I'm not looking to stonewall everything that Biden proposes, but I want to know that there won't be the kind of legislative bulldozing that happened in Obama's first two years when he had a locked in majority across the board. As far as I'm concerned, the Equality Act can take a back seat for the near foreseeable future.

All that said, I think that some of Biden's initial acts on "Day One" regarding the pandemic may turn out to be more symbolic than substantive.  Two things I hear about in the news now are lockdowns and masks.  Biden would apparently like to see a nationwide mask mandate. He can do that, but I would want to know how that fits into a system where such decisions are usually made on a state level. I think that legally it will turn out to be more of a presidential encouragement. Also, Biden and Co. are walking back the idea of nationwide lockdown and looking more at targeted lockdowns.  Current polling in the US indicates that less than half of Americans are supportive of a nationwide lockdown. Again, these are decisions usually left to states, not the federal government, and rightly so as they understand their regions better.  So, again, an encouragement to look at lockdowns, but probably no real authority to implement them.

I think that coming out of this election Democrats are going to have to take a serious look over the next two years about their strategy going into the midterms.  If they allow the far left to push them too far they risk loosing seats again.  They would do well to dial back the more progressive plans and work with Republicans on projects both can find bi-partisan cooperation.  That may be dreaming a bit, but Biden here can take the lead if he wants his legacy to be unity, not division.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 09:10:23 AM
I'm curious whether the Supreme Court's ruling in Bostock v. Clayton County might not signal a less fevered need for the "Equality Act."  After all, there is a consistent standard, imposed by the Court, via application of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (which is going nowhere).

I wonder if any moderate Democrats are climbing out on a limb to ensure passage of that law given the Court's ruling and what would seem to be the lack of its necessity in light of the Bostock decision.

If there is a perceived burning need, it would seem that gives the game away with regard to the present discussion.  Because the Court said:

"Under Title VII, too, we do not purport to address bathrooms, locker rooms, or anything else of the kind. The only question before us is whether an employer who fires someone simply for being homosexual or transgender has discharged or otherwise discriminated against that individual “because of such individual’s sex.” As used in Title VII, the term “ ‘discriminate against’ ” refers to “distinctions or differences in treatment that injure protected individuals.”

.....and again......

"We are also deeply concerned with preserving the promise of the free exercise of religion enshrined in our Constitution; that guarantee lies at the heart of our pluralistic society. But worries about how Title VII may intersect with religious liberties are nothing new; they even predate the statute’s passage. As a result of its deliberations in adopting the law, Congress included an express statutory exception for reli- gious organizations. §2000e–1(a). This Court has also recognized that the First Amendment can bar the application of employment discrimination laws “to claims concerning the employment relationship between a religious institution and its ministers.”

If indeed there is burning need to extend Title VII, rather than simply recognize that it protects LGBT people, then we can know with relative confidence where that arrow is aimed.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 09:41:22 AM
And nearly all of those executioners’ blocks were owned and operated by established regimes attempting to keep segments of the populace under control, suppress dissent and remove troublemakers who dared to challenge the established order.
   Christians indeed suffered and died. Then, when they came to power, Christians took ownership of the executioners’ blocks. The bloody tide of ideological oppression ebbed and flowed.
   There is no bloody tide reaching the beaches of our land. We have instead trivialized persecution and monetized flawed concepts of “freedom”.
   -Is my child’s teacher gay and married? Oh, no! My faith is under attack!
  -So I can’t strip-mine a mountain or operate a factory that kills and sickens workers and neighbors? Oh, no! My freedom is under attack!
  -You say I cannot refuse services to people of a different race or lifestyle? Oh, no! You won’t let me practice my religion!
  -You won’t force nonbelievers to have their taxes run my church schools and propagate my faith? Oh, no! That’s religious persecution!
Do we really think that acknowledging the marriage of that gay teacher, selling clothing or cakes to gay couples, accepting regulations to save our neighbor’s health and clean air and water or being denied public funds for parish schools is a loss of true freedom or is religious oppression marching us towards an executioners’ block?
  We should give the new administration a chance. We should have a serious discussion, not project the worst.
Were all the sentences of your post before the last two an attempt to have a serious discussion and not to project the worst?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 09:52:45 AM
I get an email summary of the New York Times headlines every day.  I don't always look at it, and sometimes I just delete it to clear up my inbox.  But every now and then something catches my eye.  I thought this was an interesting summary of the assessment of this year's election polling:

Fool us once …

The polls were wrong again, and much of America wants to know why.

Dozens of pre-election polls suggested that Joe Biden would beat President Trump by a wide margin, but the race instead came down to one or two percentage points in a handful of states. Polls also indicated that Democrats would do much better than they did in congressional races.

So what happened? Here are six key points:

1. In the last few years, Republican voters seem to have become less willing to respond to polls. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising, given Trump’s attacks on the media, science and other institutions.

2. This phenomenon isn’t simply about working-class whites. Pollsters were careful to include more of these voters in their samples than four years ago, when the polls also missed, but it didn’t solve the problem. One likely reason: Even within demographic groups — say, independent, older, middle-income white women — people who responded to polls this year leaned more Democratic than people who did not.

3. It’s also not just about Trump. Polls missed in several Senate races even more than in the presidential race, which means they did an especially poor job of finding people who voted for Biden at the top and a Republican lower down the ballot.

4. Most of the easy solutions are probably not real solutions. Since Election Day, some campaign operatives have claimed their private polls were more accurate than the public polls. That seems more false than true. Biden, Trump and both parties campaigned as if their own polls matched the public polls, focusing on some states that were not really competitive and abandoning others that were close.

5. Polls have still been more accurate over the last four years than they were for most of the 20th century. As pollsters get more information about this year’s election and what went wrong, they will try to fix the problems, much as they did in the past. A new challenge: In the smartphone age, poll response rates are far lower than they used to be.

6. We journalists can do a better job of conveying the uncertainty in polls. Polls will never be perfect. Capturing the opinions of a large, diverse country is too difficult. And in today’s closely divided U.S., small polling errors can make underdogs look like favorites and vice versa. All of us — journalists, campaign strategists and the many Americans who have become obsessed with politics — shouldn’t forget this. We just got another reminder.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2020, 10:07:16 AM
Here is the full, much longer story on the analysis of the polls. It is worth reading.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/us/politics/election-polls-trump-biden.html

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 10:19:54 AM
I get an email summary of the New York Times headlines every day.  I don't always look at it, and sometimes I just delete it to clear up my inbox.  But every now and then something catches my eye.  I thought this was an interesting summary of the assessment of this year's election polling:

Fool us once …

The polls were wrong again, and much of America wants to know why.

Dozens of pre-election polls suggested that Joe Biden would beat President Trump by a wide margin, but the race instead came down to one or two percentage points in a handful of states. Polls also indicated that Democrats would do much better than they did in congressional races.

So what happened? Here are six key points:

1. In the last few years, Republican voters seem to have become less willing to respond to polls. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising, given media and institutional abuse of Republican voters by calling them racists and ignorant rubes for decades.

In the parlance of kids these days, FTFY.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 10:21:10 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 10:37:29 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 13, 2020, 10:46:18 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Could be bias, could be who is willing to pay more to be featured.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 10:46:56 AM
Doing a little experiment in light of my last inquiry....

DuckDuckGo
--Reuters, Time, NT Times, MSNBC, Microsoft News --FOX and HuffPost a bit down the page, but still on page 1.

Startpage.com
--New York Times, CNN, NBC news on page 1. FOX news on page 2.

Yahoo Search
--USA Today, Reuters, CBS, NBC..FOX is on page one, just a bit down.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Tom Eckstein on November 13, 2020, 10:48:52 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.

Duckduckgo
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.

Duckduckgo

Thanks!  Just switched it in my Firefox homepage.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 13, 2020, 10:58:04 AM
I mean, it's as if the media remains mystified as to why half of the country despises them.  It's such a gross lack of self-awareness.

I've just recently starting noticing it, but I find it interesting how Google prioritizes news accounts.  When I search for a topic (like Trump and Biden or the election) CNN usually comes up first, along with the the New York Times, the Washington Post, etc..  If I'm curious what FOX said, by contrast, I usually have to go to the second page. Even then you have to scroll down a bit to find it. Pretty obvious bias on Google's part.

Anyone know of a good search engine that doesn't have such an obvious bias. I'm getting tired of it from Google.
Fox News should rise in stature… They have joined the other main line media organizations in censoring Trump and his administration… Neil Kabuto interrupted the president‘s press secretary a few days ago… Bias Lee claiming that they ( Fox) what are the final arbiter and what is “real” news.

Fox for the most part had joined the MSM fake news purveyors of bias news.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Randy Bosch on November 13, 2020, 11:09:26 AM
Time to stop the frivolous recount demands and lawsuits surrounding the election?
Note that in 2016, there were recount attempts in WI, NV, PA, MI, and maybe other states.  There were election lawsuits in OH, AZ, NV, NC, PA, NY, and maybe other states.  Demands and lawsuits came from both Democratic and Republican parties as well as Clinton and Trump campaigns.  Somebody named Jill pushed as hard as anyone for changing outcomes, particulalry in WI.

Whining now about such demands by one candidate or party or another but having praised them another time is simply partisan positioning.  Let the system work. 

This is part of the process, unseemly as it will always seem to those on the other side of recount and lawsuit demands.  How can it be solved?  Proceed with recounts where state law requires or allows them when there is less than x votes between candidates.  Let the courts decide the merits of lawsuits.  Actually learn from an election where some jurisdictions seem to have a radically harder time allowing votes or counting votes to occur versus others that have fairly clean sailing.

Don't accept "no need to change" just because your candidate won. 
Work to make the process even better for the next time.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 13, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
And nearly all of those executioners’ blocks were owned and operated by established regimes attempting to keep segments of the populace under control, suppress dissent and remove troublemakers who dared to challenge the established order.
   Christians indeed suffered and died. Then, when they came to power, Christians took ownership of the executioners’ blocks. The bloody tide of ideological oppression ebbed and flowed.
   There is no bloody tide reaching the beaches of our land. We have instead trivialized persecution and monetized flawed concepts of “freedom”.
   -Is my child’s teacher gay and married? Oh, no! My faith is under attack!
  -So I can’t strip-mine a mountain or operate a factory that kills and sickens workers and neighbors? Oh, no! My freedom is under attack!
  -You say I cannot refuse services to people of a different race or lifestyle? Oh, no! You won’t let me practice my religion!
  -You won’t force nonbelievers to have their taxes run my church schools and propagate my faith? Oh, no! That’s religious persecution!
Do we really think that acknowledging the marriage of that gay teacher, selling clothing or cakes to gay couples, accepting regulations to save our neighbor’s health and clean air and water or being denied public funds for parish schools is a loss of true freedom or is religious oppression marching us towards an executioners’ block?
  We should give the new administration a chance. We should have a serious discussion, not project the worst.
Presumptive President Elect Biden has pledged to be a president for all of America, not just the true Blue. I hope and pray that he lives up to that pledge and honestly listens to and considers the concerns of those from the other side of aisle. I have to agree with Charles' last two sentences of his post. We should give the new administration a chance and have serious discussions, not just projecting the worst and dealing only in hateful caricatures of those with whom we disagree.


Thus I hope and expect that the new president will not engage in discussion as does our local humble correspondent who refuses to actually listen to what others post but rather deals in hateful caricatures of their positions and insists that the extremist fringe elements of their side are representative of their main stream thought while also insisting that the fringe elements of his own side be treated as the extremes that they actually are and be largely ignored. Much easier to dehumanize, delegitimize, and dismiss hateful caricatures than actually having to listen to real people and discover that they have legitimate concerns that need to be considered and actual ideas that may be helpful. Also much easier to put forth the positions and policies of his own side as the only legitimate rational proposals rather than having to craft positions and policies that reflect what is good and needed from both sides. Much, much easier to simply dismiss those others as hateful buffoons to be put down so that we can get on with our oh so good and rational program. When they are ready to listen to the truth, put aside their hate, and be good and rational people, they can join us. Thus we will have unity in our country.


I have seen the folly of my ways. If Pr. Austin ever wants to put aside caricatures and actually discuss issues, I like discussion. Otherwise, I long ago ceased to need aggravation to keep my blood pressure from dropping too low. Now I must watch my diet and take my medication to keep it down. Yes and avoid the aggravation of trying to discuss with people whose interest in discussion extends only to caricaturing those with whom they disagree and virtue signaling.   
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 13, 2020, 11:38:29 AM

And as long as the words don’t mean anything, they suffice for you today. And as long as they mean what orthodox doctrine says they mean, they suffice for me today.

So you're saying that it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 13, 2020, 11:50:24 AM
Time to stop the frivolous recount demands and lawsuits surrounding the election?
Note that in 2016, there were recount attempts in WI, NV, PA, MI, and maybe other states.  There were election lawsuits in OH, AZ, NV, NC, PA, NY, and maybe other states.  Demands and lawsuits came from both Democratic and Republican parties as well as Clinton and Trump campaigns.  Somebody named Jill pushed as hard as anyone for changing outcomes, particulalry in WI.

Whining now about such demands by one candidate or party or another but having praised them another time is simply partisan positioning.  Let the system work. 

This is part of the process, unseemly as it will always seem to those on the other side of recount and lawsuit demands.  How can it be solved?  Proceed with recounts where state law requires or allows them when there is less than x votes between candidates.  Let the courts decide the merits of lawsuits.  Actually learn from an election where some jurisdictions seem to have a radically harder time allowing votes or counting votes to occur versus others that have fairly clean sailing.

Don't accept "no need to change" just because your candidate won. 
Work to make the process even better for the next time.

Yes, there have often been recounts, audits, suit, the longish legal process toward final Congressional recognition, etc. Yet there has never been a Republican candidate who refused to concede shortly after the call by the AP. Embarrassed Republican officials are now beginning to disassociate themselves from the refusal to recognize Biden.

It is somewhat inconsequential. Except Biden should be given the daily classified briefing now.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 12:01:08 PM
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot called for a lockdown of the city and for families to cancel any traditional Thanksgiving get-togethers. This came a few days after she was photographed with her mask down under her chin in a large group of people celebrating the election. When asked about the contradiction, she replied by defending her decision to participate in the party, saying, "But, yes, there are times when we actually do need to have relief and come together, and I felt like that was one of those times. That crowd was gathered whether I was there or not. But this has been a super hard year on everyone. Everyone feels traumatized."

This is sadly typical of why so many people reject utterly the establishment as elitist. Unless she is seriously deranged and has made a religion out of politics, she needs to know that my faith, family, and traditional get-togethers are way, WAY more important (not by a little, but by a lot) than anything related to an election could possibly be for her or anyone in that crowd. When she and like-minded people have a hard year and need to have relief and come together, it is justified. When normal people have a hard year and need relief and a time to come together, a la Thanksgiving, well, too bad. 

I really do think it is typical of mayors and governors being decree-happy while exempting themselves. Lightfoot famously also defended her decision to get her hair done while salons were ordered shut because she is the face of the city and hygiene is really important to her. She is so despicably un-American and elitist in her attitude toward public service that it beggars belief. So is Gov. Pritzger. The cultural divide is widening, not coming together.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
And as long as the words don’t mean anything, they suffice for you today. And as long as they mean what orthodox doctrine says they mean, they suffice for me today.


The early believers were willing to suffer and die for those words. They meant something much, much more than some doctrine that they agreed with. Among other things it means that nothing else is lord; not the emperor, not the president, not self, and perhaps even, not church confessions and doctrines. Harvey Cox in The Future of Faith, makes a distinction between "faith in Jesus" that was present in the earliest disciples who "live in his Spirit, embrace his hope, and follow him in the work that he had begun" (p. 5). I note that the baptism instruction of Hippolytus of Rome was all about how one lived the Christian life with almost nothing about agreeing to correct doctrines. "Sponsors," affirmed that the convert was able to live a Christian life in the midst of the pagan world.


This changed a decades later with "replacing faith in Jesus with tenants about him." (p. 5). Christianity was about having the correct beliefs, not so much about following the way of Jesus with one's life.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2020, 12:08:56 PM
Pastor Fienen:
I have seen the folly of my ways. If Pr. Austin ever wants to put aside caricatures and actually discuss issues, I like discussion.
Me:
I reject the charge of caricature, obviously. Pastor Fienen likes to read that into my criticisms. What I say about a few, he pretends that I say about all. And I take a stand, I pick a side, and he doesn’t like that, preferring his “On the one hand, on the other hand” middling.
But we digress.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 12:11:27 PM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
And as long as the words don’t mean anything, they suffice for you today. And as long as they mean what orthodox doctrine says they mean, they suffice for me today.


The early believers were willing to suffer and die for those words. They meant something much, much more than some doctrine that they agreed with. Among other things it means that nothing else is lord; not the emperor, not the president, not self, and perhaps even, not church confessions and doctrines. Harvey Cox in The Future of Faith, makes a distinction between "faith in Jesus" that was present in the earliest disciples who "live in his Spirit, embrace his hope, and follow him in the work that he had begun" (p. 5). I note that the baptism instruction of Hippolytus of Rome was all about how one lived the Christian life with almost nothing about agreeing to correct doctrines. "Sponsors," affirmed that the convert was able to live a Christian life in the midst of the pagan world.


This changed a decades later with "replacing faith in Jesus with tenants about him." (p. 5). Christianity was about having the correct beliefs, not so much about following the way of Jesus with one's life.

How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?

How would you even know what the way is?

I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
Did Paul find it sufficient that nothing else was needed and no disagreements so long as that was agreed to?


Contrary to Peter's argument, those weren't just words for Paul. It was a confession of faith and a statement about how one was to live one's life.


Romans 10:9: Because if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


1 Corinthians 12:3: So I want to make it clear to you that no one says, “Jesus is cursed!” when speaking by God’s Spirit, and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


There is a theory, which makes sense to me, that the Greek of this confession: Κύριος Ἰησοῦς, hearkens back to the Christian's use of the LXX where Κύριος was used for the divine name והיה. (Had the Christians used the Hebrew text of Scriptures rather than Greek, that might not have become the early confession.) It was stating the belief that Jesus is YHWH, the God who gave his proper name to Moses.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:24:37 PM
Literally no one has suggested the First Amendment is unlimited.  But neither is it as limited as you all would like to believe.


And it might be more limited than you all would like to believe.

Quote
Every time liberal groupthink runs up against First Amendment protections, you all side with liberal groupthink.  That is the problem.  You want to force people to adopt your views.


And you don't?

Quote
Yes.  It would be awful if you couldn't force Christian schools to hire gay teachers wouldn't it?


Who is talking about forcing schools to hire teachers?

Quote
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.

Quote
I'll remember that the next time you go on a screed about closed communion or female pastors.  "You're all ever so mean!"

"Jesus is Lord was sufficient in biblical times!"

It's like a handy little talisman that allows one to wave away any legitimate discussion through the most absurd reductionism ever.


I have never said that those who disagree with me (and my church body) are mean.


We can certainly have meaningful discussions about what it means to confess that Jesus is (my) Lord. As I've said in other posts, answering the question, "What do you believe?" is much less important than answering the question, "What difference does it make in your life that you believe?"
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
5. Polls have still been more accurate over the last four years than they were for most of the 20th century. As pollsters get more information about this year’s election and what went wrong, they will try to fix the problems, much as they did in the past. A new challenge: In the smartphone age, poll response rates are far lower than they used to be.


Even our home phone tells us who is calling. We ignore more calls than we answer when we don't recognize the name or number that is calling. It's not just Republicans who are avoiding pollsters.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 12:30:14 PM
Literally no one has suggested the First Amendment is unlimited.  But neither is it as limited as you all would like to believe.


And it might be more limited than you all would like to believe.

Quote
Every time liberal groupthink runs up against First Amendment protections, you all side with liberal groupthink.  That is the problem.  You want to force people to adopt your views.


And you don't?

Quote
Yes.  It would be awful if you couldn't force Christian schools to hire gay teachers wouldn't it?


Who is talking about forcing schools to hire teachers?

Quote
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.

Quote
I'll remember that the next time you go on a screed about closed communion or female pastors.  "You're all ever so mean!"

"Jesus is Lord was sufficient in biblical times!"

It's like a handy little talisman that allows one to wave away any legitimate discussion through the most absurd reductionism ever.


I have never said that those who disagree with me (and my church body) are mean.


We can certainly have meaningful discussions about what it means to confess that Jesus is (my) Lord. As I've said in other posts, answering the question, "What do you believe?" is much less important than answering the question, "What difference does it make in your life that you believe?"

I'm not going to even try to format this.

No, I don't want to force people to adopt my views.  Do you have evidence to the contrary?  If you do, present it.

Your side is looking to force Christian schools to hire gay teachers.  There has been a Supreme Court case on the topic.  It involved a Lutheran school.  We've talked about it here.  I favor policies that allow Lutheran schools to decide who to hire based on their religious beliefs.

Your zeal for my martyrdom is cute, but perhaps you should be more concerned with your own.  It's easy to call for the martyrdom of other people.  It's also unchristian.  Repent.

Finally, the only way belief can make a difference in one's life is if one is allowed to practice it.  As best I can tell, it is primarily, if not solely, your political side of the fence that wishes to foreclose people from acting on their religious belief.  Why you would get in bed with them is baffling to me, because they will eventually come for you as well.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 12:32:00 PM
If the concern over the Equality Act is for religious freedom, Pr. Stoffregen has repeated pointed out that the beliefs affected by the Act are not necessary to hold on to the core Christian belief that Jesus is Lord, and Pr. Austin's pointed out that many Christians, many Lutherans even, have no beliefs that would be in conflict with the Act, would even welcome it. So where's the problem? If your beliefs would pose a  problem just be reasonable and adopt the beliefs of other Christians that are more reasonable and unproblematic. You can still be Christian,  no sweat. Just a pinch of tolerance incense.  8) ::) :P


The confession, Jesus is Lord, was sufficient in biblical times.
Did Paul find it sufficient that nothing else was needed and no disagreements so long as that was agreed to?


Contrary to Peter's argument, those weren't just words for Paul. It was a confession of faith and a statement about how one was to live one's life.


Romans 10:9: Because if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


1 Corinthians 12:3: So I want to make it clear to you that no one says, “Jesus is cursed!” when speaking by God’s Spirit, and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


There is a theory, which makes sense to me, that the Greek of this confession: Κύριος Ἰησοῦς, hearkens back to the Christian's use of the LXX where Κύριος was used for the divine name והיה. (Had the Christians used the Hebrew text of Scriptures rather than Greek, that might not have become the early confession.) It was stating the belief that Jesus is YHWH, the God who gave his proper name to Moses.
My argument is not that they were just words to St. Paul. My argument is that all words are just words to you, including "Jesus is Lord" and agreeing with you on the truth of those words is no different than agreeing with you that "Floopy is droop." We agree as long as nobody defines them or applies the meaning of them to anything beyond just agreeing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:33:10 PM

And as long as the words don’t mean anything, they suffice for you today. And as long as they mean what orthodox doctrine says they mean, they suffice for me today.

So you're saying that it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?  ;D 8)


Seems that I recall a discussion about that concerning, "This is my body …."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:37:09 PM
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 12:40:19 PM
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.

You err at the outset when you separate the Old Testament from its source.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 13, 2020, 12:41:20 PM
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.

You err at the outset when you separate the Old Testament from its source.


The command to love neighbor in Leviticus was compiled by the "P" source using traditional material.
The command to love God in Deuteronomy was compiled by the "D" source using traditional material.


Happy now?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 12:50:37 PM
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 13, 2020, 01:05:20 PM
How do you follow the way of Jesus with your life if you do not have correct beliefs about Him and His teachings?


The great commandment(s) (which come from the Old Testament, not just from Jesus).


The golden rule - which is found in nearly all religions.

Quote
How would you even know what the way is?


Prayer, meditation, scripture reading, and a belief that when Jesus is Lord, there is a Holy Spirit in my life helping and guiding my thoughts and actions.

Quote
I assume your sermons are not simply you saying "Jesus is Lord!"


… and what does it mean for our lives to confess that Jesus is Lord.

You err at the outset when you separate the Old Testament from its source.


The command to love neighbor in Leviticus was compiled by the "P" source using traditional material.
The command to love God in Deuteronomy was compiled by the "D" source using traditional material.


Happy now?

I'm unsurprised now.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 13, 2020, 01:10:50 PM
We can certainly have meaningful discussions about what it means to confess that Jesus is (my) Lord. As I've said in other posts, answering the question, "What do you believe?" is much less important than answering the question, "What difference does it make in your life that you believe?"

Q. Which of the religions of the world gives to its followers the greatest happiness?

A. While it lasts, the religion of worshipping oneself is the best.

I have an elderly acquaintance of about eighty, who has lived a life of unbroken selfishness and self-admiration from the earliest years, and is, more or less, I regret to say one of the happiest men I know. From the moral point of view it is very difficult! I am not approaching the question from that angle. As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity. I am certain there must be a patent American article on the market which will suit you far better, but I can't give any advice on it.
~C.S Lewis, God in the Dock, "Answers to Questions on Christianity" (1944)

It sounds like C.S. Lewis' acquaintance had a faith that made a very significant, positive difference on his life.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 13, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
Does that mean that Paul was a fan of Emperor Nero? Certainly Christianity will survive the Biden administration, of that I have no doubt. With David Garner I marvel at your embrace of martyrdom for others. You seem to positively relish the idea of those whose Christian beliefs you dispute suffering for their faith. Do you hope that the government will dish out martyrdom to those you disagree with? Would you be willing to light Nero's garden for your support of same sex marriage?


Our rebirth in baptism makes us citizens of God's kingdom. Our birth in the United States, or naturalization, makes us citizens of the United States with attendants rights, privileges, and responsibilities. As citizens of the United States we are granted a measure of say in how the United States is governed and its laws. A Christian's right to have a say in U.S. governance is not reduced by his being a Christian nor by being a conservative Christian. Why should Christian citizens not hold the government of their nation to the rights recognized by law and advocate for policies and law that they think will benefit the nation and her people.


Paul was a Christian who was also, by birth, a Roman citizen. Paul was not adverse to asserting his Roman citizenship and the rights and privileges that his citizen entitled him to when it was advantageous. Paul, so tradition tells us, did suffer martyrdom under Nero but before that he did not actively seek martyrdom but actually asserted his citizenship to gain better treatment by local authorities and in at least one case used that citizenship to appeal the legal case against him to a higher court.


The possibility of persecution for the faith is a possibility that each of us must face. Fortunately, the degree of persecution that we might face here in America is much less than elsewhere in the world and at other times. And yet, is there any good reason that we as Christians should not assert the rights and privileges that we have as U.S. citizens and the protections that the Constitution and laws afford for the free exercise of our faith, even if some of our brethren disagree with those beliefs and seem to wish that we would face legal penalty for practicing them?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 03:57:37 PM
Once again, the self-styled "tolerant" are the most intolerant around.  You want your beliefs?  No problem!  Just don't say them out loud or put them into practice or live as if they are true.  We don't want to get so tightly wrapped around "religious freedom" (let's be sure to put that in scare quotes because we all know it's a farce anyway, right?) that we actually give people the freedom to exercise their religion.


You are certainly free to proclaim your beliefs out loud and put them into practice. Just be willing to light up Nero's garden with your life, or maybe suffer some ridicule from those who don't share your beliefs.
I had hoped that the United States would show greater respect for the rights of people than did Nero, or do you hold him up as a model of good government?


Well, he was the emperor when Paul wrote Romans 13.


If Christianity survived the periods of anti-Christian persecutions of Nero and some emperors after him, it will certainly survive any presidents we may elect.
Does that mean that Paul was a fan of Emperor Nero? Certainly Christianity will survive the Biden administration, of that I have no doubt. With David Garner I marvel at your embrace of martyrdom for others. You seem to positively relish the idea of those whose Christian beliefs you dispute suffering for their faith. Do you hope that the government will dish out martyrdom to those you disagree with? Would you be willing to light Nero's garden for your support of same sex marriage?


Our rebirth in baptism makes us citizens of God's kingdom. Our birth in the United States, or naturalization, makes us citizens of the United States with attendants rights, privileges, and responsibilities. As citizens of the United States we are granted a measure of say in how the United States is governed and its laws. A Christian's right to have a say in U.S. governance is not reduced by his being a Christian nor by being a conservative Christian. Why should Christian citizens not hold the government of their nation to the rights recognized by law and advocate for policies and law that they think will benefit the nation and her people.


Paul was a Christian who was also, by birth, a Roman citizen. Paul was not adverse to asserting his Roman citizenship and the rights and privileges that his citizen entitled him to when it was advantageous. Paul, so tradition tells us, did suffer martyrdom under Nero but before that he did not actively seek martyrdom but actually asserted his citizenship to gain better treatment by local authorities and in at least one case used that citizenship to appeal the legal case against him to a higher court.


The possibility of persecution for the faith is a possibility that each of us must face. Fortunately, the degree of persecution that we might face here in America is much less than elsewhere in the world and at other times. And yet, is there any good reason that we as Christians should not assert the rights and privileges that we have as U.S. citizens and the protections that the Constitution and laws afford for the free exercise of our faith, even if some of our brethren disagree with those beliefs and seem to wish that we would face legal penalty for practicing them?


Certainly Christian Americans should exert their rights as citizens of our country. We should vote for the candidates we prefer. We should vote for ballot measures we agree with. However, we should also recognize that we are a nation where "majority rules." Christians are not a majority. "Non-affiliated" is the largest religious group in America. According to The Association of Religion Data Archives, in 2010 there were 150.6 million Americans associated with religious groups (all religions); and 158.1 million Americans who were "unclaimed."
https://www.thearda.com/rcms2010/r/u/rcms2010_99_US_name_2010.asp


Given the makeup of our nation, it's understandable that laws and ballot measures contrary to Christian beliefs could be approved by majority rule. Just consider trying to keep Sunday morning free from sporting events so that youth can attend worship. I was battling that issue at my first parish in Southern California in 1976.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 04:02:30 PM
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 13, 2020, 04:25:21 PM
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 13, 2020, 04:41:16 PM
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
It's also worth noting that in all of the contested states, the rules for when absentee ballots could be processed were set by Republican legislatures.  I acknowledge that in Pennsylvania, there are legitimate questions about whether executive officials or courts improperly disregarded the instructions of the legislature.  But it was well-known for weeks before the election that Biden voters disproportionately intended to vote early, and Trump voters disproportionately intended to vote on Election Day.  It's a little rich to make rules that make it highly likely that most of the opposing party's candidate's votes will be counted last, and then cite a dramatic come from behind victory as inherently suspicious.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 05:14:18 PM
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.

The answer is absentee ballots in states where they are not allowed to count ahead of time. Florida and Ohio are examples of states that do allow advance counting. It would be good if all states changed to that before next time.

Nothing untoward has been uncovered thus far and that's likely not for neglect or unwillingness to investigate, especially in red states. All states have required procedures to audit the count before certification so it's possible something strange will turn up. Still there's the administration's Homeland Security asserting that it was the most secure election ever.    :)

Peace, JOHN
It's also worth noting that in all of the contested states, the rules for when absentee ballots could be processed were set by Republican legislatures.  I acknowledge that in Pennsylvania, there are legitimate questions about whether executive officials or courts improperly disregarded the instructions of the legislature.  But it was well-known for weeks before the election that Biden voters disproportionately intended to vote early, and Trump voters disproportionately intended to vote on Election Day.  It's a little rich to make rules that make it highly likely that most of the opposing party's candidate's votes will be counted last, and then cite a dramatic come from behind victory as inherently suspicious.
I don't think that a come from behind victory is suspicious in and of itself. Happens all the time. What doesn't happen all the time is what people are saying happened this time-- most of the reliable indicators pointed to a Trump victory, while extreme outliers like the turnout in Milwaukee County, in which Biden apparently did much better than Obama ever did, favor Biden. All it does it make people want to see what happened and not rush into anything. Again, it is a vibe thing, not an empirical data thing at thing point.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2020, 05:57:14 PM
Peter writes:
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.
I comment:
And these have been very very strange years.

Peter writes:
To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did.
I comment:
See above. You don’t think these are weird times? Just because something has been true since 1980 means nothing in a time like ours.

Peter writes:
His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening.
I comment:
“Expectations” are often dashed in troubled times. Or are you referring to the “polls,” the infamous “polls.” Pollsters today are admitting the ways they messed up. And could it be (I know this is hard for you but…), could it be that even when people say they are “better off”, they still fault the president for mishandling the virus, maybe they don’t like his lies and maybe they are tired of all the chaos he has brought on.

Peter writes:
Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.
I comment:
Vibe? Vibe? You’re throwing hard data, statistics and actually counted ballots into the dumpster because of a vibe? I’m shocked. I’m shocked that you, Peter, would go so far just to raise doubts about the failures of your guy.
   Could it be that some conspiracy against the president was so vast, so gigantic that it included secretaries of state in three dozen states, some of them Republican, tens of thousands of poll workers, and who knows how many balloting machines, so many that it would probably take a battalion of hackers to throw them off the straight and narrow. And the people in charge of our national cyber security, who were on the watch for foreign interference, said this was the safest election ever.
   Have you read about the timing of counting absentee and mail-in ballots? Most of those totals came late in the whole process.
  Of course, I have my own view on how things went and why. A lot of people are tired of Trump. They are tired of the chaos. And the bungled response to the virus was, I think, the deal-breaker. Some Trumpers are fanatically loyal nevertheless.
   But he got so many votes? Yes. I also believe there are those who, though they probably despise Trump as a man as much as I do, will not ever vote for a Democrat or Progressive.
   Bottom line: He lost. The election was not taken from him. He lost. There was no massive voter fraud or rigging. He lost. I happen to think that Biden won, but maybe he will be president not because he “won” (although he did receive the proper number of votes and worked hard for those votes), but that Trump lost. People are tired of him. And he has nothing to offer us on the critical issues of the virus and domestic peace. His leadership was a disaster; and he added to civil unrest rather than helped to heal it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 05:59:57 PM
https://spectator.org/pennsylvania-voting-doesnt-add-up/

From the article, after some number crunching-- "In other words, Donald Trump vastly outperformed his numbers nationally but vastly underperformed them in Pennsylvania. And if you believe that, then I have a thousand acres of farmland to sell you in Philadelphia."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 13, 2020, 06:08:43 PM

Vibe? Vibe? You’re throwing hard data, statistics and actually counted ballots into the dumpster because of a vibe? I’m shocked. I’m shocked that you, Peter, would go so far just to raise doubts about the failures of your guy.
   
Charles, please grab your alpb-issue paper bag and breath into it. There. In... out. In... out. There. Did I say I was throwing data and statistics in the dumpster? No. No I did not. I was explaining, perfectly calmly and rationally, why I find the data somewhat counter-intuitive and am willing wait for an explanation and final certification. The sense I get is that something very weird happened. You apparently agree, but think we should chalk it up to 2020 and accept it without looking into it. I prefer that it be looked into.

Biden's new chief of staff claimed elections were rigged in a 2014 tweet. Elizabeth Warren and several other Dem senators were alarmed about loose election security quite recently. Hillary Clinton said that Biden should under no circumstances whatsoever concede before the official certification. Why is it so shocking that someone would think it possible?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 06:31:47 PM
One reason many conservatives are inclined to suspect something amiss in the election is that virtually every indicator, including the way things looked on election night, showed Trump would win. This is not to say he must have won, but only that if he didn't, a lot of very, very strange things would have had to have happened.

To give just one example out of many, there are 19 bellwether counties in the U.S. that have voted with the winner in every election since 1980. 18 of those 19 favored Trump in this election. Possible that he lost anyway? Of course. But definitely weird if he did. His favorability rating on election day, the percentage of people who say they are better than they were four years ago, economic indicators-- a lot of things with long, proven track records of picking the winner seemed to indicate that what was happening mid evening on election day-- Trump repeating his 2016 showing and perhaps improving on it slightly-- is what we should have expected to have been happening. Then everything stopped, and Wednesday morning whole lot had changed. Again, it could all be on the up and up. But it doesn't have that vibe.


Many if not all of the shifts in voting were predicted by pollsters and the news agencies I watched. They knew that mail-in ballots were skewed towards Biden (especially since Trump told supporters not to use mail-in ballots, even though he did). They knew that populated areas tend to skew towards Biden, and those votes would take longer to count.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 13, 2020, 06:35:06 PM
he added to civil unrest rather than helped to heal it.
Maybe. Or maybe, just maybe, that four-year-long coup attempt had something to do with "civil unrest".
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 13, 2020, 06:37:02 PM
he added to civil unrest rather than helped to heal it.
Maybe. Or maybe, just maybe, that four-year-long coup attempt had something to do with "civil unrest".


Perhaps "civil unrest" came about because the guy many voted for, who got the most number of votes, was not elected president in 2016. Perhaps "civil unrest" came about because of the uncivil rhetoric from the president towards those who disagree with him.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 13, 2020, 06:52:00 PM
he added to civil unrest rather than helped to heal it.
Maybe. Or maybe, just maybe, that four-year-long coup attempt had something to do with "civil unrest".
Perhaps "civil unrest" came about because the guy many voted for, who got the most number of votes, was not elected president in 2016. Perhaps "civil unrest" came about because of the uncivil rhetoric from the president towards those who disagree with him.
She lost according to the rules. Just like many claim is the case this year. Losing an election is no excuse for grownups to act like toddlers, and this applies both ways — recent events + the past memory of birtherism help to lay bare just how addled much of the populace has become. Just this past week I saw a post from a pastor who claimed they saw on the news that Trump had many states vote for him, then found themselves screaming and sobbing in terror for hours; all sorts of other clergy in response coddled them, agreeing with what they said, telling them they were right in their feelings (I truly fear for every person under the "spiritual care" of such beings). People need care and help, but instead they're getting their way — which, experience with children shows, will only lead to more acting out. People who allow themselves to be goaded into insanity by rhetoric (rhetoric!) aren't to be trusted, and rather than being looked at with pity, their shame hidden from view by caring adults, are held up as honorable and virtuous by the media, who clearly both have no shame and no understanding of not feeding the beast.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 13, 2020, 07:17:00 PM
https://spectator.org/pennsylvania-voting-doesnt-add-up/

From the article, after some number crunching-- "In other words, Donald Trump vastly outperformed his numbers nationally but vastly underperformed them in Pennsylvania. And if you believe that, then I have a thousand acres of farmland to sell you in Philadelphia."
Officials raised concerns for years about security of U.S. voting machines, software systems

https://www.thecentersquare.com/national/officials-raised-concerns-for-years-about-security-of-u-s-voting-machines-software-systems/article_bec0fc86-2144-11eb-bc8c-bb85a60db758.html

The State of Texas has refused to certify Dominion voting systems to be used in the state at least 4 times .. most recently in 2019.

Many locals with contested elections are using this substandard equipment.  Apparently there should be some national standard to insure that nationwide substandard equipment does not introduce doubt or worse into elections.

Were Dominion machines used in Pennsylvania?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
Election. Over.
Biden. Won.
Moving on now to setting up a new administration.
(But validly concerned about what idiotic chaos the current occupant of the white house might let fly before Jan. 20.)
Some hopeful news on the virus front. Nothing to do with Him.
A new team being formed to deal with the virus in the future. Nothing to do with Him.
There will be time to look at the mechanics and timing of our presidential elections. We should do so.
We move on.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 13, 2020, 10:30:31 PM
I hope, in the spirit of finding the best even in those we don't particularly care for, that in time - in time - it will be possible to discuss what Trump did for the country that was positive and good.  I would do that now, but the raw feelings of anger and disgust toward him as a person are such that it would not be productive.  But I hope that when these feelings ease, and those those who voted for Biden have had time to celebrate, that someone, at some point in the future, can provide a fair assessment of the positives from the Trump administration.  Personally I believe such a list is possible, but again, it would not be received well at this point in time.  For some, I suspect, it might never be.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 14, 2020, 12:35:13 AM

Some hopeful news on the virus front. Nothing to do with Him.
A new team being formed to deal with the virus in the future. Nothing to do with Him.


Did you really mean to capitalize "Him"?

Deifying...albeit backhandedly...the one who you have denigrated these past four years?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 14, 2020, 04:51:44 AM
You miss the counter-suggestion in Pastor Austin's comment. The point is that 45's supporters have deified 'Him.'  Pastor Austin is not deifying anybody.  It's subtle, I know, but stick with it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 05:48:02 AM
We thought (and I believe Mr. Teigen) intended this to be forward-looking and hopeful. 
But furious defense of Mr. Trump, some blue-sky stratosphere speculations from Trump supporters, and the president, acting out the closing scenes of a Greek tragedy (or maybe a slapstick comedy), have taken the thread down a different path.
   The drama continues tilting towards the absurdist side. This past week President Trump’s top-flight lawyers quit the case (probably in disgust and because their client would not take their advice) after losing a series of challenges.
   And – ta da! - Rudy Giuliani is picked to lead the legal attack on the election and attempt to be the comic relief for viewers shaken by the severity of this assault on our republic. Rudy would testify that the moon was made of green cheese if his client so ordered.
   The top K-Street firm, Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, dumped the president after their losses. Biden leads by nearly 60,000 votes in Pennsylvania and six cases were tossed out. They involved a whopping 8,921 votes, still considered valid. Not only did the lawyers lose, they finally woke up to the fact that even if they won, it wouldn’t mean anything.
   The Porter Wright firm told the court that they and their client had “reached a mutual agreement that Plaintiffs will be best served if Porter Wright withdraws”.
   It appears that Mr. Trump’s only “win” was a Pennsylvania case where it was alleged a small number of voters were given incorrect information about voter ID and the dates for casting the ballots. Guess what? Those votes had already not been included in Pennsylvania’s final tally because of confusion over when they had been received. If any of them had been for the incumbent, out they go!
   Wendy Weiser, from the Brennan Center for Justice, a bipartisan law and public policy institute, told ABC News, "These law firms (defending the challenges) have been under tremendous pressure as it became clear these claims were baseless, and that they were part of a broader campaign to delegitimize the election."
   "This was not an appropriate use of the court system," she said.

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 08:39:08 AM
We thought (and I believe Mr. Teigen) intended this to be forward-looking and hopeful. 
But furious defense of Mr. Trump...
Forward-looking and hopeful does not involve attacking the candidate who ostensibly lost. Absent attacks, there is no defense. You are the one still obsessed with Trump. If you claim his supporters have deified him, that they're dangerous, that Trump supporters are like nazis and filled with hate, etc. then Trump supporters will simply correct what is obviously erroneous about your attacks. If you simply look forward hopefully to a Biden administration, you can remain blissfully unaware of Trump supporters are thinking.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 14, 2020, 08:48:43 AM
We thought (and I believe Mr. Teigen) intended this to be forward-looking and hopeful. 
But furious defense of Mr. Trump...
Forward-looking and hopeful does not involve attacking the candidate who ostensibly lost. Absent attacks, there is no defense. You are the one still obsessed with Trump. If you claim his supporters have deified him, that they're dangerous, that Trump supporters are like nazis and filled with hate, etc. then Trump supporters will simply correct what is obviously erroneous about your attacks. If you simply look forward hopefully to a Biden administration, you can remain blissfully unaware of Trump supporters are thinking.

Of course, “look forward” here means simply “let’s stop talking bad about the (soon to be current) president. It’s a one way ratchet.

As ever, attempting to control speech is a hallmark of leftist thought. As if anyone has the right to tell me what I am allowed to discuss.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 08:54:23 AM
We thought (and I believe Mr. Teigen) intended this to be forward-looking and hopeful. 
But furious defense of Mr. Trump...
Forward-looking and hopeful does not involve attacking the candidate who ostensibly lost. Absent attacks, there is no defense. You are the one still obsessed with Trump. If you claim his supporters have deified him, that they're dangerous, that Trump supporters are like nazis and filled with hate, etc. then Trump supporters will simply correct what is obviously erroneous about your attacks. If you simply look forward hopefully to a Biden administration, you can remain blissfully unaware of Trump supporters are thinking.

Of course, “look forward” here means simply “let’s stop talking bad about the (soon to be current) president. It’s a one way ratchet.

As ever, attempting to control speech is a hallmark of leftist thought. As if anyone has the right to tell me what I am allowed to discuss.
An interesting new poll shows that about 4% of Biden voters would not have voted for him had they known about Hunter Biden's ties to China. But they either voted early or simply were unaware of it because of the media blackout of stories related to it. It is unarguable that Big Tech overtly became the gatekeepers of acceptable speech and thought in this election. This will also be the year that the old guard media (NYT, WaPo, AP) gave up even the pretense of reporting rather than advocating. That is a function is describing one side as Hitler-- it puts a moral demand on people to do anything, even lie or cheat, in order to stop him.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 09:02:35 AM
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/11/14/democracy-institute-pollster-yes-i-think-this-election-was-stolen-n2579970

This article notes that Biden underperformed Hillary Clinton in major metro areas around the country because the "shy Trump voters" turned out to be Black males and suburban women. But amazingly, he greatly overperformed Clinton in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Atlanta. Just Wisconsin's supposed 89% voter turnout is a staggering statistical outlier calling for some explanation.

There is no proof of cheating here. But there are things happening that if we were acting as an international observer to some other country's elections, we would start raising red flags.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 09:57:34 AM
So now you’re starting to believe the polls, either?
And was everything the major media reported about trump wrong? Everything? Were the lies actually truth? And is everything you’re now reading in the conservative media reacting to the results of the election, true?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 14, 2020, 10:14:19 AM
But there are things happening that if we were acting as an international observer to some other country's elections, we would start raising red flags.
Here's a guide for asking questions on an election: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37243190 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37243190)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 10:24:21 AM
So now you’re starting to believe the polls, either?
And was everything the major media reported about trump wrong? Everything? Were the lies actually truth? And is everything you’re now reading in the conservative media reacting to the results of the election, true?
Charles, would you please stop leaping to extremes? Why would you use the word "everything" when you know that the only possible phrase would be "some things" in both our cases? You don't believe EVERYTHING  you read in the media. Nor do I. You don't think EVERYTHING reported in conservative media is a lie. Nor do I. Much of what is reported in response to the election is not true. But I wait until it is shown to be untrue before leaping to that conclusion. You seem to prefer a conclusion preceding any effort even to look into allegations.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 14, 2020, 10:40:01 AM
Some hopeful news on the virus front. Nothing to do with Him.
A new team being formed to deal with the virus in the future. Nothing to do with Him.
Did you really mean to capitalize "Him"?
Deifying...albeit backhandedly...the one who you have denigrated these past four years?
You miss the counter-suggestion in Pastor Austin's comment. The point is that 45's supporters have deified 'Him.'  Pastor Austin is not deifying anybody.  It's subtle, I know, but stick with it.
Mr. Teigen: I believe that it is you who is missing the point of J Thomas Shelly’s post. Do style manual support pronoun capitalization in this instance, pronoun capitalization at the end of a sentence, ... or is this yet another gratuitous politically motivated non style supported action.

For many forum users, the time honored (in many Biblical translations) capitalization of pronouns referring to our Triune God is still honored and respected.  While some of the newer translations admittedly have gotten sloppy in this area, many Bible reading Christians are unaccustomed to capitalized pronouns ending a sentence that do not refer to the Triune God.

Perhaps you are in a position to demonstrate that your defense of non style book linguistic gymnastics is anything but an underhanded sniping comment that was politically motivated.

Full disclosure .. as a muzzled poster, J Thomas Shelly’s post provided great joy at the end of an otherwise dismal day of restricted forum participation.🤔
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 11:53:20 AM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 14, 2020, 11:58:01 AM
Rampart fraud is not the case at all.  You persist in disseminating uncertainty.  Get over it.  Joe Biden won the 2020 Presidential Election.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 12:02:41 PM
Careful readers and those with some sense of humor not obliterated by their Trumpism will notice that I frequently capitalize pronouns referring to the president when I am talking about the adulation given to Him by members of his cult.
Peter, you may not get this, but I think I may do you the favor of concluding that you are either trolling or just baiting me, because I cannot believe that you are so dense as to actually swallow (or even chew on) some of the things you are posting.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 14, 2020, 12:05:30 PM
Just how many of the people who post on this forum do you figure are part of Trump's  cult who shower him with adulation and deify him?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 14, 2020, 12:05:47 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Rampart fraud is not the case at all.  You persist in disseminating uncertainty.  Get over it.  Joe Biden won the 2020 Presidential Election.
How do you know rampant fraud is not the case? All these people are lying? How many instances of dead people voting, or people who never requested ballot being told they already voted, or affidavits about back-dating ballots would it take for you? Whether or not it changed the outcome, rampant fraud is the demonstrated, unarguable fact of this election. At this point, that Biden won the election is as certain that Trump colluded with Russia and Joe Biden was not in any way involved in Hunter’s business dealings.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 12:08:26 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
All allegations are unproven. Once proven, they become facts. Do you believe that thousands of dead people voted in this election?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 14, 2020, 12:09:30 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
All allegations are unproven. Once proven, they become facts. Do you believe that thousands of dead people voted in this election?


No. Even if they did, 1000 less votes wouldn't make a difference.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 12:18:00 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
All allegations are unproven. Once proven, they become facts. Do you believe that thousands of dead people voted in this election?


No. Even if they did, 1000 less votes wouldn't make a difference.
So if someone gave you a list of thousand people whose votes were recorded in this election but who had died long before early voting began, what would you think?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on November 14, 2020, 12:29:27 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
All allegations are unproven. Once proven, they become facts. Do you believe that thousands of dead people voted in this election?


No. Even if they did, 1000 less votes wouldn't make a difference.
So if someone gave you a list of thousand people whose votes were recorded in this election but who had died long before early voting began, what would you think?

I'd think that Duval County TX is back in business
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 12:35:43 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Just how many of the people who post on this forum do you figure are part of Trump's  cult who shower him with adulation and deify him?
Me:
I don’t know, and I will not make that judgment. But I will note when they refer to the statement of those who do if I the president.
Peter, You are not being careful with language. The allegations do not remain remain allegations because people have tried to prove them true and failed. Then they become either lies or items that have no bearing on the matter at hand.
No, I do not believe that thousands of dead people voted  in this election. Because given the scrutiny applied to the process, don’t you think someone would’ve found some proof of this or even tried to present what they thought was proof?
I ask again, how vast a conspiracy, how many thousands of people would’ve had to be in on some massive attempt to make the election fraudulent in favor of Biden? Thousands of poll workers? Dozens, perhaps hundreds of local officials? Secretaries of State in disputed territories? Election judges? National security personnel? Who got all these folks together to skew the election in Biden’s favor?
And how did they manage to pull the wool over the eyes of everybody who was watching these elections, from local poll watchers right up to national security experts?

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 14, 2020, 01:01:34 PM
Joe Biden is the President-Elect of the United States.  Refusal of deniers to acknowledge this is dissemination of toxicity  in our democracy.  Deniers are breaking faith with American history, ideals, and ideas.   It is un-American and disloyal.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 14, 2020, 01:04:45 PM
The African election story is irrelevant.
Sharpen those reading skills, Norman. The language of my post was precise: an election, not this election. The article in question was also not specific to the African situation, but to elections in general, which means that this article's points could be applied to this year's election, but also to any other — which means that it really is relevant to this year's election, as a yes or no for each point can be made in regard to what has just transpired, with judgements made accordingly.

I am also truly amused that you and Charles keep saying shut up shut up shut up shut up when it comes to further discussion of the just-finished, still-not-completed US national election. Answer me this: Do you want possible fraud to stand? Do you want flaws in our system to be left unfixed? If your answer is yes to these, then please explain why — please note that there are few, if any, good places such an answer could come from.

Also: what on earth does this sentence possibly mean?

But I will note when they refer to the statement of those who do if I the president.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 01:42:13 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Just how many of the people who post on this forum do you figure are part of Trump's  cult who shower him with adulation and deify him?
Me:
I don’t know, and I will not make that judgment. But I will note when they refer to the statement of those who do if I the president.
Peter, You are not being careful with language. The allegations do not remain remain allegations because people have tried to prove them true and failed. Then they become either lies or items that have no bearing on the matter at hand.
No, I do not believe that thousands of dead people voted  in this election. Because given the scrutiny applied to the process, don’t you think someone would’ve found some proof of this or even tried to present what they thought was proof?
I ask again, how vast a conspiracy, how many thousands of people would’ve had to be in on some massive attempt to make the election fraudulent in favor of Biden? Thousands of poll workers? Dozens, perhaps hundreds of local officials? Secretaries of State in disputed territories? Election judges? National security personnel? Who got all these folks together to skew the election in Biden’s favor?
And how did they manage to pull the wool over the eyes of everybody who was watching these elections, from local poll watchers right up to national security experts?
So what do you do with published lists of names of people who were born 120 years or more or whose obituaries are on record, yet who are also on record as having voted? Do you simply assume it isn't true because it can't be true? That means your demands for proof and evidence are meaningless because you wouldn't consider it proof or evidence even if it were offered. The fact, denial of which is simply lunacy, is that many, many people have been recorded as having voted in this election who were dead long before voting began. That isn't debatable. It is a fact. You simply relabel such facts allegations, then further relabel them debunked allegations because they couldn't be true, then label anyone who doesn't think so a liar.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
If I posited that Kentucky might not exist, nobody would care. Everyone knows it does exist. I might get a few quizzical queries as to why I would say such a thing, but certainly no irritation or anger. But if I suggest that Biden might not have won the election, people get apoplectic. They not only think he won, but they insist that I not question that fact in any way. That isn't normal behavior. It is insecure behavior.

I think many ballots were illegally cast in the name of dead people in this election. I doubt it would change the result, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I also remain sceptical about vote totals margins in places like Milwaukee. This scepticism will remain regardless of who gets sworn in as president in January unless I see a convincing explanation for the massive improbabilities involved. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 14, 2020, 01:54:15 PM
Joe Biden is the President-Elect of the United States.  Refusal of deniers to acknowledge this is dissemination of toxicity  in our democracy.  Deniers are breaking faith with American history, ideals, and ideas.   It is un-American and disloyal.

Joe Biden is NOT officially the President Elect until after Congress has received and certified the results of the Electoral College vote.  Let the process run its course.  Go the Constitution and various news and legal articles that explain this.

Until then, Joe Biden is the presumptive winner of the election.  The media can unofficially call him "President-Elect of the United States" all they want, and you can accuse those who won't call him "President-Elect of the United States" of being "un-American and disloyal" all you want, but it won't change the facts.  This sort of behavior is not going to help Joe Biden unify the country.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 14, 2020, 02:02:28 PM
The African election story is irrelevant.

The article discusses how to detect election fraud.  That discussion seems highly relevant.

Now if you want to argue that none of the red flags mentioned applies to the November 2020 US election, I'm willing to listen, just as I am listening to those who argue that some of them do.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: John_Hannah on November 14, 2020, 02:12:25 PM
I will presume that any evidence of fraud will be brought to the appropriate state court of law and argued vigorously by the enthusiastic GOP lawyers. Until proven in court I will presume innocence. That's the American way. Is it not?

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 14, 2020, 02:33:16 PM
I will presume that any evidence of fraud will be brought to the appropriate state court of law and argued vigorously by the enthusiastic GOP lawyers. Until proven in court I will presume innocence. That's the American way. Is it not?

Peace, JOHN
That is the way that it should run, yes. But meanwhile we have a chorus of voices hollering that any evidence of fraud is fake and that the matter should never be taken to court. Any allegations of fraud should be ignored and not investigated until they are proven in court, but they should not go to court until they have been proven in court.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 14, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
Just how many of the people who post on this forum do you figure are part of Trump's  cult who shower him with adulation and deify him?

At least one or two.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 14, 2020, 02:48:00 PM
I will presume that any evidence of fraud will be brought to the appropriate state court of law and argued vigorously by the enthusiastic GOP lawyers. Until proven in court I will presume innocence. That's the American way. Is it not?

Peace, JOHN
That is the way that it should run, yes. But meanwhile we have a chorus of voices hollering that any evidence of fraud is fake and that the matter should never be taken to court. Any allegations of fraud should be ignored and not investigated until they are proven in court, but they should not go to court until they have been proven in court.


Gee, I could have said much the same thing last year, but substitute "evidence of Presidential misconduct" and "impeachment inquiry."
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 14, 2020, 03:33:28 PM
Joe Biden is the President-Elect of the United States.  Refusal of deniers to acknowledge this is dissemination of toxicity  in our democracy.  Deniers are breaking faith with American history, ideals, and ideas.   It is un-American and disloyal.

How come faith with American history, ideals, and being "un-American and disloyal," only applies to Democratic presumptive winners?

You and Pastor Austin have spent the past several months just trashing the President of the United States every chance you get.  Please spare me the call to civility now.  It is hollow and empty coming from either of you given your behavior here of late.

If all that is too obtuse, let me say it more plainly -- I don't care at all what either of you have to say about criticizing Joe Biden or anyone else, about the integrity of elections, about respect for the office.  I will behave as I always have with regard to those things, which is to say, better than either of you.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 14, 2020, 03:53:34 PM
Joe Biden is the President-Elect of the United States.  Refusal of deniers to acknowledge this is dissemination of toxicity  in our democracy.  Deniers are breaking faith with American history, ideals, and ideas.   It is un-American and disloyal.

If a man or woman is technically, according to the law of our country, not yet the "President-Elect" until the electors in the Electoral College formally cast their votes, why would it be a "dissemination of toxicity in our democracy" not to mention "un-American and disloyal" to refer to him or her as the "presumptive president-elect"? To refer to him in such a way is not automatically to call into question the legitimacy of his election, even if some might do so.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 03:56:39 PM
Pastor Hannah writes:
I will presume that any evidence of fraud will be brought to the appropriate state court of law and argued vigorously by the enthusiastic GOP lawyers. Until proven in court I will presume innocence. That's the American way. Is it not?
I comment:
Yes, that is it. Do people here not think that if there were instances of a massive fraud against Trump that the republican party would not be pursuing it vigorously?
There probably was some fraudulent voting in this past election. But it was not massive, it was not organized, and it if those votes were cast out, it would not have affected the outcome. Matter of fact, there may have been some fraudulent votes for the incumbent president.
Those who keep crying “fraud” are going to have to explain why they don’t trust the entire law enforcement system of our country.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Voelker on November 14, 2020, 04:40:30 PM
Just how many of the people who post on this forum do you figure are part of Trump's  cult who shower him with adulation and deify him?
At least one or two.
Count me out. I'm personally not at all bothered that Trump himself is (likely) gone (he's a terrible distraction and ends up working against the positive directions his administration has tried to take), and am very happy to see that divided government is likely to continue; the less government can do, the less harm it can do. Both sides are equally evil, but one side is evil in a self-interested way, which means they are easier to distract and less likely to bother themselves with hurting large numbers of people in direct ways, as that's usually not terribly profitable, while the other side is evil in a do-gooder way, looking to get their fingers into everyone's pies through Big Sistering everything, which hurts far more people, far more directly, and usually can't be rooted out for generations. It makes it a slightly easier choice that once side is far less likely to lecture me while ordering me about — I strongly suspect that many voters choose based on who they can stomach listening to for the next four years, which is pretty much all that is needed to explain 2016 and 2020 — the horror of having to listen to Mrs. Clinton made voting for Trump easy; the prospect of continuing to listen to him made voting for Biden somewhat less difficult.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Robert Johnson on November 14, 2020, 05:11:19 PM
I will presume that any evidence of fraud will be brought to the appropriate state court of law and argued vigorously by the enthusiastic GOP lawyers.

Well, after this doxxing of the lawyers - and the abuse that followed it - the primary law firm in the Pennsylvania case has withdrawn from the case.
legalinsurrection.com/2020/11/lincoln-project-latest-campaign-targets-trumps-law-firm-lawyers-and-clients-of-the-firm/ (http://legalinsurrection.com/2020/11/lincoln-project-latest-campaign-targets-trumps-law-firm-lawyers-and-clients-of-the-firm/)

There is a DC operation as well: disrn.com/news/leftist-group-launches-harassment-campaign-on-trumps-election-lawyers/ (http://disrn.com/news/leftist-group-launches-harassment-campaign-on-trumps-election-lawyers/)

The Cancel Culture on display.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 05:25:41 PM
Or maybe they quit because their client wouldn’t follow their legal advice. Or maybe they quit because they kept losing all their cases.
Actually I think the most rational explanation is that Trump fired them.
Oh, and then there’s the matter of continuing to cry “fraud” when there is absolutely no evidence of massive fraud, continuing to try and undermine public confidence in the election is indeed an assault on our democracy. I even worry that some folks in this modest forum are doing that, perhaps unconsciously, but…
Hey, how’s this for irony? Here’s the old 1960s radical, a guy considered anti-government, anti-establishment, wanting to bring about a revolution, now defending our government and its processes.
And here’s law and order Republicans Casting aspersions on our law and our order.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 05:31:05 PM
Or maybe they quit because their client wouldn’t follow their legal advice. Or maybe they quit because they kept losing all their cases.
Actually I think the most rational explanation is that Trump fired them.
The most rational explanation conflicts with what the press is widely reporting? Say it ain’t so!
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 14, 2020, 05:32:28 PM
Those who keep crying “fraud” are going to have to explain why they don’t trust the entire law enforcement system of our country.

As will those trying to shut down any investigation of any allegations of fraud.

We need to prove or disprove the allegations in order to maintain confidence in our elections.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 05:58:09 PM
Those who keep crying “fraud” are going to have to explain why they don’t trust the entire law enforcement system of our country.

As will those trying to shut down any investigation of any allegations of fraud.

We need to prove or disprove the allegations in order to maintain confidence in our elections.
Agreed. If someone deliberately cast fraudulent votes just to prove the system was flawed, you can bet they’d be prosecuted. But when someone shows that a dead person voted, nobody tracks down the person responsible for the fraudulent vote. Nothing undermined confidence in the system like making those who play by the rules feel like they’re being played. As the Nevada article showed, the big safeguard against fraud was supposed to be the signature match, but ballots without matching signatures are routinely being accepted.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 06:02:37 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/harvesting-the-2020-election-11605221974?mod=djemalertNEWS&fbclid=IwAR1XIyG5T7n7xlhRAK7dmR7vpHNItwlkSLCD7wgbVn_NV1kYiiTIB-MisEw

This article gives an interesting, mainstream take.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 06:40:41 PM
By the way, according to the BBC, the pro Trump rally in Washington today had people shouting “An-ti-fa! An-ti-fa!”
Wassup with that?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 14, 2020, 07:47:17 PM
Those who keep crying “fraud” are going to have to explain why they don’t trust the entire law enforcement system of our country.

As will those trying to shut down any investigation of any allegations of fraud.

We need to prove or disprove the allegations in order to maintain confidence in our elections.
The more concerning thing Mr Runstad is attempting to understand why there is such fear of these investigations ... if everything is fair and above board, those calling for investigations will simply be proven wrong  ... if those calling for investigations are correct, well honest law abiding voters have been disenfranchised.  

Sounds like something important enough to look into ... but then those who fear investigations are the same people who fear photo id at the polling place.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 14, 2020, 07:57:47 PM
By the way, according to the BBC, the pro Trump rally in Washington today had people shouting “An-ti-fa! An-ti-fa!”
Wassup with that?
BBC, not NBC. Just noting that because someone seems all bent out of shape by this post without having read it.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 14, 2020, 08:18:42 PM
Joe Biden is the President-Elect of the United States.  Refusal of deniers to acknowledge this is dissemination of toxicity  in our democracy.  Deniers are breaking faith with American history, ideals, and ideas.   It is un-American and disloyal.

How come faith with American history, ideals, and being "un-American and disloyal," only applies to Democratic presumptive winners?

You and Pastor Austin have spent the past several months just trashing the President of the United States every chance you get.  Please spare me the call to civility now.  It is hollow and empty coming from either of you given your behavior here of late.

If all that is too obtuse, let me say it more plainly -- I don't care at all what either of you have to say about criticizing Joe Biden or anyone else, about the integrity of elections, about respect for the office.  I will behave as I always have with regard to those things, which is to say, better than either of you.
Mr Teigen:  please demonstrate from your body of posts that you have acted in a civil and God pleasing manner in respect to President Trump .. remember your previous actions speak far louder than your feigned call for loyalty today.

By the way, there is no Biblical mandate addressing honor and respect due the fictitious non existing office of president elect. Please show the Biblically mandated respect for the current POTUS.  Thank you
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: RogerMartim on November 14, 2020, 08:24:10 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 14, 2020, 08:32:45 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?
Mr Martin ... today there is far less respect for the press than anytime in the country’s history.  The press including Fox cuts away from Presidential statements because they have anointed themselves as ‘fact checkers’.  The media’s job is to report the news... not be the news. Facts can be checked after the speech is over ... they don’t have to interrupt it!

The press is not the final arbiter of the election ... unless you have a different copy of the constitution than the rest of us.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 14, 2020, 08:39:25 PM
https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/)

Do people believe this story in the media? Mail-in voting is not secure. The "Covid excuse" forced many states to go firmly toward more mail-in voting, and, as was widely predicted, rampant fraud has resulted.


However, a day earlier, the same paper reported that voter fraud allegations were unproven.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/investigations/voter-fraud-unproven-in-nevada-despite-multiple-trump-campaign-claims-2181421/)
All allegations are unproven. Once proven, they become facts. Do you believe that thousands of dead people voted in this election?


No. Even if they did, 1000 less votes wouldn't make a difference.
So if someone gave you a list of thousand people whose votes were recorded in this election but who had died long before early voting began, what would you think?


First of all, I would think the person made up the list.
Secondly, if it was shown that 1000 dead people had voted, I would see if they had been flagged in any way.
Third, if their votes were counted, I would explore what went wrong in the system to allow them to go through.
Finally, I would explore who committed the crime and seek to have them prosecuted.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 14, 2020, 08:54:20 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?
Mr Martin ... today there is far less respect for the press than anytime in the country’s history.  The press including Fox cuts away from Presidential statements because they have anointed themselves as ‘fact checkers’.  The media’s job is to report the news... not be the news. Facts can be checked after the speech is over ... they don’t have to interrupt it!


The press are not in the business of reporting lies as truth. A lie is not news. It's one person's mistaken opinion, or a purposeful attempt to deceive. διάβολος (diabolos) which is often translated "devil," literally means, "the slanderer." John 8:44 has Jesus saying: Your father is the devil [diabolos]. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars.

If any news organization is not going to be the tool of the devil, it must seek to show the truth and avoid lies.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 14, 2020, 09:43:09 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Your memory fails you. I remember Jill Stein’s recount. I remember the pleas for faithless electors.

I remember the last 4 years for that matter. Russia collusion, impeachment, the Kavanaugh hearings.

I accept that Joe Biden has won. I don’t accept fake calls for civility from the uncivil.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 14, 2020, 09:45:36 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?
Mr Martin ... today there is far less respect for the press than anytime in the country’s history.  The press including Fox cuts away from Presidential statements because they have anointed themselves as ‘fact checkers’.  The media’s job is to report the news... not be the news. Facts can be checked after the speech is over ... they don’t have to interrupt it!


The press are not in the business of reporting lies as truth. A lie is not news. It's one person's mistaken opinion, or a purposeful attempt to deceive. διάβολος (diabolos) which is often translated "devil," literally means, "the slanderer." John 8:44 has Jesus saying: Your father is the devil [diabolos]. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars.

If any news organization is not going to be the tool of the devil, it must seek to show the truth and avoid lies.

This is why half the country doesn’t trust the press. Precisely because they lie, and are therefore in your own words tools of the devil.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 14, 2020, 09:46:35 PM
Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen.

Thousands? Thousands? What happened to "Million MAGA March"?
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 14, 2020, 09:58:22 PM
I don’t know your profession, Mr. Garner, but supposing I said of it “this is why half the country doesn’t trust [your profession]. Precisely because they [do the opposite of what your profession is supposed to do] and therefore are tools of the devil.”
Sounds stupid, right? Doesn’t help dialog or understanding, right?
Working in the secular media, I often had to knock down people’s warped views of faith, Christianity and the Church.
I really tire of you who declare all reporters liars.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: David Garner on November 14, 2020, 10:32:27 PM
I don’t know your profession, Mr. Garner, but supposing I said of it “this is why half the country doesn’t trust [your profession]. Precisely because they [do the opposite of what your profession is supposed to do] and therefore are tools of the devil.”
Sounds stupid, right? Doesn’t help dialog or understanding, right?
Working in the secular media, I often had to knock down people’s warped views of faith, Christianity and the Church.
I really tire of you who declare all reporters liars.

I didn’t say all reporters.

But you love to cite to the NY Times, so that shoe might fit better than some others.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: James S. Rustad on November 14, 2020, 11:28:10 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?

Mostly because back in 2016 there wasn't anyone calling us names if we did not accept the title of "President Elect".  Up until that started I would have let it pass as being just one more media inaccuracy.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 15, 2020, 04:01:36 AM
A couple that we have known for years have been spreading info on FB about a software program (Dominion) being a part of  'Steal the Vote.'   Rather surprised to learn that these good people have been influenced in this matter.  Here is the truth behind the matter.  The count by the way is now Biden 306, Trump 232.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/technology/no-dominion-voting-machines-did-not-delete-trump-votes.html
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 05:20:40 AM
“Stop the Steal” has been around since before 2016 and is a far far right disinformation campaign that seems to be now in the hands of Roger Stone, the self-described “dirty trickster” serving time in federal prison for 7 felonies until Trump pardoned him. Steve Bannon, a far far right figure who got fired from his White House job, is also on the scene.
Here’s the CNN story:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/13/business/stop-the-steal-disinformation-campaign-invs/index.html

Fact and conclusion again:
Irregularities were investigated.
Some allegations are not credible enough to investigate, no matter how many times foolish people post them online.
Most of these idiocies, when investigated and used in lawsuits, are proven wrong or laughed out of court.
There was no massive voter fraud.
Even Republicans not in the Trump cult say so.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 08:23:59 AM
It would be interesting to go back just six months or so and look for all the articles that warned of stolen elections, the dangers of fraud, etc. Just last year Elizabeth Warren was sounding the alarm. Hillary Clinton warned Biden not to concede under any circumstances until it was official. Why? Because it might get into a court battle, and public perception of who was trying to steal the election from whom would make a big difference, as it allegedly was in the aftermath of 2000. Those are experienced insiders. Given that context, it makes perfect sense that even if the normal practice is to start the transition right away, this year we ought to go the extra mile to do things by the book and not give any appearance whatsoever of trying to rush to a conclusion or deny anyone their day in court.

There is very little chance working together civilly. Why would the left want to work together with a bunch of nazis and racist xenophobes? And why would the right want to work together with people who loathe them and think they are only motivated by irrational fear and hatred? When it is just ideas— tax law, trade deals, vehicle emissions standards, etc. then hey, even if you lose and the other side mucks everything up, it isn’t personal. But when identity politics gets involved, the election is “over the soul of the nation” as Biden put it, and it becomes the forces of light vs. the forces of darkness, then the divisions don’t go away after the votes are counted. If I represent the forces of hatred, ignorance, and darkness in your eyes, then I know you aren’t serious in saying you want to work together. And if I’m not, but you haven’t apologized for saying I was, then I know you aren’t worth working together with. Magnanimity is the burden of the winner. Shy of that, divided, uncooperative government is the burden of one who wins by scorching the earth. And make no mistake, identity politics is scorched earth politics.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 15, 2020, 08:58:29 AM
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 09:46:41 AM
I don’t think the people on the streets of Washington yesterday making all those disturbances were typical of either Trump or Biden supporters.
P.S. to Robert Johnson:
I do not ignore people. I consider that rude and destructive to the broader nature of this modest form. I don’t respond to everyone, some postings being too off-the-wall to merit response. I have accepted an urging of the moderators not to respond to a particular poster, whose comments have often led us astray.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: mariemeyer on November 15, 2020, 11:35:00 AM
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...

Anti-Trump opinions have been expressed on this forum as have pro-Trump opinions. Opinions on both sides reflected the division that exists in our country.  On what basis is the claim made that the anti-Trump posts on this Forum expressed personal loathing of the man?

Interestingly the front page of the Sunday New York Times called attention to the Rev. Fred Krebs, a Lutheran pastor in Mason, Texas. " "We pray for peaceful transition,' he told his congregation of 50 people."  Krebs continued, "Defining people strictly by their parties is not a good thing. And I've learned that sometimes people think more deeply when they get into a conversation than when we just start labeling one another."
 
Marie Meyer

 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 15, 2020, 11:50:18 AM
A couple that we have known for years have been spreading info on FB about a software program (Dominion) being a part of  'Steal the Vote.'   Rather surprised to learn that these good people have been influenced in this matter.  Here is the truth behind the matter.  The count by the way is now Biden 306, Trump 232.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/technology/no-dominion-voting-machines-did-not-delete-trump-votes.html
Nothing Mr. Teigen can say negates the fact that previously (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=a109fad23f81990ace38e50b8b22ba87&topic=7650.msg492966#msg492966) it was noted that the state of Texas has refused on multiple occasions to certify the substandard dominion voting systems ... most recently in 2019.

It remains ironically concerning that much of the questionable votes in the 2020 election were “recorded“ using the faulty Dominion equipment.

Using this DuckDuckGo link (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dominion+voting+system+problems&t=h_&ia=web), numerous articles demonstrate that there is a valid concern about this foreign based voting system.

Again remember ... the State of Texas had declined on multiple occasions to certify Dominion equipment for state wide use.  Further review of this equipment should be independently performed to alleviate these concerns in the future.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Norman Teigen on November 15, 2020, 12:37:46 PM
When I started this thread I had hopes that we might pass from acrimony towards harmony both in the larger context and here on this venerable Forum.  Trump and his supporters will not concede.  Past Presidents have graciously congratulated their successors.   Trump, if he does not go on his own, might be escorted out by the Secret Service.    I do hope that the country will move on after Trump goes. I believe the the participants on the Forum are engaged in considerations of over-all good things and will move away from fear and hysteria.   I read with great interest how parish pastors continue to minister in the fact of great odds.    I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 01:03:58 PM
And here is kind of a hoot, Mr. Teigen.
Most of the links in that “duck duck” site show that  the dominion machines were tested, verified, and it did not reveal any Reason to believe that they contributed to errors or fraud. The fact that some states chose not to use them means nothing. And some states, according to those reports, that had problems, learned that the problems were attributable to human error and easily fixed.
And you are very right. We should be moving on, looking forward.
But the Trump supporters refuse to accept reality. They continue to cast doubt on the election, with the repetition of lies based upon no facts currently in evidence. Someone here who is clearly not a foolish idiot, even brings up “vibes“ about the vote count.
They refuse to speak of Biden with respect. They refuse to acknowledge that at this point we do know that he has received enough electoral votes to be considered president-elect.
And then there is the man himself. Hunkered down in the White House. Posting lies and nonsense on Twitter. Waving from behind tinted limousine window at demonstrators in the Washington streets. We have a vice president who speaks as if the election has not been decided. We have key Republicans who seem to back the president’s nonsense.
We have the president making Pentagon appointments for people who were previously rejected for confirmation in those jobs.
These things are the reason it seems so hard to move on. Lies and nonsense from the president’s supporters, his refusal to accept reality.
And as we are now learning from the experts, this actually presents a very serious security threat to our nation.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 15, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
There is very little chance working together civilly.

Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...

Anti-Trump opinions have been expressed on this forum as have pro-Trump opinions. Opinions on both sides reflected the division that exists in our country.  On what basis is the claim made that the anti-Trump posts on this Forum expressed personal loathing of the man?

Interestingly the front page of the Sunday New York Times called attention to the Rev. Fred Krebs, a Lutheran pastor in Mason, Texas. " "We pray for peaceful transition,' he told his congregation of 50 people."  Krebs continued, "Defining people strictly by their parties is not a good thing. And I've learned that sometimes people think more deeply when they get into a conversation than when we just start labeling one another."
 
Marie Meyer

The word "loathing" can mean "extreme disgust, a feeling of aversion, great dislike, etc."

I think that if one took the time to review the original election thread and this one as its successor you will find posts that have such disgust and aversion to Trump.  One post noted "the malice that some of us feel concerning Trump."  Malice is "extreme ill will or spite."  The president has been described as a "sick, desperate man." 

Not all disagreement with the president has expressed loathing for the man, but some has.  As I noted upstream it would be very difficult to express any appreciation for supposed good things that Trump may have done during this presidency given the view of the man himself.  Trump was far from a perfect man. He had many failings and character flaws and shortcomings from what some expected in a president.  But if we took an honest took at any of the presidents throughout history we would find faults and failings in all of them.

But connection with Trump also elicits some of this disgust, and thus my concern for productive dialogue for the future.  But we'll see. I'd be happy to have my concerns proven wrong.

Perhaps we can take a hint from the venerable President Lincoln:
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Second Inaugural Address, 1865
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 15, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
When I started this thread I had hopes that we might pass from acrimony towards harmony both in the larger context and here on this venerable Forum.  Trump and his supporters will not concede.  Past Presidents have graciously congratulated their successors.   Trump, if he does not go on his own, might be escorted out by the Secret Service.    I do hope that the country will move on after Trump goes. I believe the the participants on the Forum are engaged in considerations of over-all good things and will move away from fear and hysteria.   I read with great interest how parish pastors continue to minister in the fact of great odds.    I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue.

I do not believe that the Secret Service will escort the current president out forcefully.  I have faith that he will leave on his own. In the end he might actually be relieved to do so.

As far as moving on, I wonder. Many serious disagreement remain with or without Trump as a foil.  As I have been saying, I hope that Biden will maintain his historically middle road when it comes to suggesting legislation and in enacting executive orders.  If he is truly concerned for unity and healing he will have to move a bit right to hear his opponents.

One area that needs agreement right out of the gate is aid to Americans still suffering from COVID-related unemployment and business shutdowns.  The current president is urging that a financial aid package be passed. I cannot understand why Pelosi can't meet folks halfway and agree to a lesser package now for immediate relief.  If she wants more, then pass additional legislation.  But we can't even meet half way on such a critical issue, with or without the current occupant of the White House.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 01:41:00 PM
And here is kind of a hoot, Mr. Teigen.
Most of the links in that “duck duck” site show that  the dominion machines were tested, verified, and it did not reveal any Reason to believe that they contributed to errors or fraud. The fact that some states chose not to use them means nothing. And some states, according to those reports, that had problems, learned that the problems were attributable to human error and easily fixed.
And you are very right. We should be moving on, looking forward.
But the Trump supporters refuse to accept reality. They continue to cast doubt on the election, with the repetition of lies based upon no facts currently in evidence. Someone here who is clearly not a foolish idiot, even brings up “vibes“ about the vote count.
They refuse to speak of Biden with respect. They refuse to acknowledge that at this point we do know that he has received enough electoral votes to be considered president-elect.
And then there is the man himself. Hunkered down in the White House. Posting lies and nonsense on Twitter. Waving from behind tinted limousine window at demonstrators in the Washington streets. We have a vice president who speaks as if the election has not been decided. We have key Republicans who seem to back the president’s nonsense.
We have the president making Pentagon appointments for people who were previously rejected for confirmation in those jobs.
These things are the reason it seems so hard to move on. Lies and nonsense from the president’s supporters, his refusal to accept reality.
And as we are now learning from the experts, this actually presents a very serious security threat to our nation.
You said it wrong. The line is, "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy."

https://notthebee.com/article/take-a-peak-under-the-orwellian-hood-with-this-clip-of-objective-media-reading-the-exact-same-script-telling-you-what-to-believe
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 15, 2020, 02:03:14 PM
https://vashiva.com/dr-shiva-live-mit-phd-analysis-of-michigan-votes-reveals-unfortunate-truth-of-u-s-voting-systems/

This is the sort of conspiracy theory floating around out there. The thing to do is to answer it. And by answer it, I don't mean assure everyone that safeguards are in place to prevent cheating, or claim that this kooky MIT statistician is not to be taken seriously. That is avoiding it, which only lets the idea that the election is stolen fester.

Is his data wrong? Are his systemic assumptions flawed? Is there a perfectly reasonable explanation for what on the surface appears to be obvious chicanery? If so, let's hear it. Take up the argument. But the more the media simply shushes everyone, as they did with the Hunter Biden scandal, the more they simply lose credibility.

In this case, the argument is simple. The data in three Michigan counties (but not all counties) shows an unnaturally uniform correlation between the percentage of people in any given precinct who voted straight Republican and the degree to which Trump underperformed the straight Republican ticket. That is, Trump overperforms the GOP ticket at uniform rates in highly Dem precincts, but underperforms the GOP in Republican precincts. That is to be expected given the dynamics of the race. What is not to be expected and is not explicable (apart from algorithmic bias in the tabulation) is the uniform rate of underperformance in a straight diagonal line in all three counties. Barring the explanation that the votes were counted with a weighted bias factored in, what is the explanation?

I don't think most people will take Dr. Shiva seriously. He is a classic internet guru sleuth type. But if you want people taking for granted that elections were free and fair and not shady or dubious, then I think his recommendations are sound. For example, the way it is done in Michigan, the voting machine takes a picture of the ballot. It is that picture that is counted. But the pictures are not saved. An easy way to disprove algorithmic chicanery, which would be to do a recount manually, is not possible. It should be. There should be one to one correlation between physical, re-countable ballots and registered voters who voted. Where there isn't, why not?
I think it will be good for the country if we can maximize the number of people who believe the election was conducted fairly, even if they don't like the results.  For this reason, I think it is fine to allow legal challenges supported by specific allegations to be evaluated as provided by law.  But a word of caution about the multiplying "statistical proofs" of cheating.  It is one thing to do a statistical analysis to evaluate a clearly-defined hypothesis that has been formulated prior to analyzing the data (the technical term is a pre-specified hypothesis).  It is nearly worthless to point to even extreme anomalies in a large data set as proof of anything without having a pre-specified hypothesis, because it is nearly certain that any large data set will contain hugely improbable coincidences. 

To take an example from poker, suppose you are dealt a five-card hand consisting of the two of spades, the four of hearts, the six of diamonds, the eight of clubs, and the ten of spades.  This is a remarkable hand in that it includes all the suits and all the even numbers.  The odds of being dealt this exact hand are roughly 2.6 million to one against, making it rarer than a royal flush.  But it won't win you any money, because this unusual hand has not been "pre-specified" as a winner according to the rules of poker. 

Peace,
Jon
I don't think that analogy holds, for the simple reason that elections have built-in pre-specified rule that the most votes wins. Anything that systemically skews in the same direction once actual candidate preference has been accounted for becomes evidence of manipulation. It is not as complex as poker. More like playing War with kids. My kids used to rig the deck before challenging me. Amazingly, they would have all aces and kings to start off the game.

Say, for example, that you discovered that everyone whose last name began with B voted for Biden. That would be clear evidence of vote tampering or fraud if the sample size were more than a few hundred. But there is no way you could have that hypothesis in advance. You'd have to discover it. To put it in poker terms, if an ace falls out of the dealer's sleeve, that is evidence of cheating even if you didn't hypothesize in advance he was cheating and couldn't prove empirically that he won any given hand by cheating. In one of LBJ's rigged elections, the people handling it forgot to stagger their fake votes, so it turned out his voters supposedly voted in alphabetical order.

In the case at hand, (again, I've not analyzed the data myself, so I can't vouch that his graphs are accurate) there is a clear skew that is best explained by an algorithm weighting the votes. Where common sense would expect a more or less straight horizontal line, as in War common sense would expect a more or less equal distribution of high cards in either half of the shuffled deck, we get instead a clear, straight diagonal line, nve that would be easy to produce with a weighted algorithm and very hard to explain any other way. It isn't as though he discovered an anomaly that is mere correlation, like those standard "If the Redskins win the week before the election, a Republican wins the white house," kind of thing, where they're just retrofitting circumstances from a huge pool of noise data to find one that matches.
No, it is better explained here:

https://youtu.be/aokNwKx7gM8

The whole video is worth watching, but a key observation is that the plot of Republican/Trump voting patterns allegedly showing that Trump was robbed looks almost exactly like the analogous plot of Biden/Democratic voters, implying that Biden, too must have been "robbed".

I realize that this may be playing whack-a-mole, but I advise extreme caution in giving too much credence to pseudo-scientific "proofs" of fraud.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 02:57:20 PM
Fair enough. That is the sort of response that matters— it engages the question rather attack anyone who would have questions. I don’t think these competing stat analysis bloggers are offering pseudo-science. They’re analyzing statistics and trying to explain anomalies. It is also important to distinguish evidence from proof. There can be evidence that suggests something fishy happened that doesn’t in itself prove anything. If you find someone leaving a drug house with a big wad of cash, that doesn’t prove anything. It is awfully suspicious though. There are many aspects of this election that seem awfully suspicious. Those suspicions aren’t answered by people pointing out that such fishiness doesn’t prove anything. Obviously not. But it calls for a plausible explanation.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 15, 2020, 03:23:29 PM
Fair enough. That is the sort of response that matters— it engages the question rather attack anyone who would have questions. I don’t think these competing stat analysis bloggers are offering pseudo-science. They’re analyzing statistics and trying to explain anomalies. It is also important to distinguish evidence from proof. There can be evidence that suggests something fishy happened that doesn’t in itself prove anything. If you find someone leaving a drug house with a big wad of cash, that doesn’t prove anything. It is awfully suspicious though. There are many aspects of this election that seem awfully suspicious. Those suspicions aren’t answered by people pointing out that such fishiness doesn’t prove anything. Obviously not. But it calls for a plausible explanation.
Fair points, and my use of the term "pseudo-scientific" was uncharitable.  But I also think you have inverted where the burden of proof lies.  I absolutely agree that deliberately tampering with the results in a close presidential election is catastrophically evil, and it is worth taking preventive and punitive action to avert such an outcome.  But it is also a disaster for our country if the default assumption becomes, "well, of course, partisans will cheat" and demanding that every alleged anomaly "calls for... explanation" in the sense that an election result is somehow  tainted for as long as people choose to dig through piles of data and suggest nefarious activity.  And yes, I get the irony that that is exactly what many Democrats have been doing for 4 years.  It wasn't healthy for the country when they did it, and it won't be healthy if Trump's partisans do something analogous.

As someone who reluctantly voted for Biden and is generally satisfied with the outcome of the election (both Presidential and Congressional, by the way), I probably need to be reminded that President Trump and his disappointed supporters are entitled to challenge and examine election results as provided by law, even if it takes some time.  I get that there is a difference between "evidence" and "proof", and that some evidence that falls short of proof is nevertheless worth a look.  But "evidence" exists along a broad scale from flimsy to compelling, and I would ask Trump and his supporters to be mindful of the potential damage to our country of relying on relatively weak evidence to suggest that hundreds or thousands of election workers in our country are corrupt.

Peace,
Jon

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 03:31:38 PM
JEdwards writes:
I would ask Trump and his supporters to be mindful of the potential damage to our country of relying on relatively weak evidence to suggest that hundreds or thousands of election workers in our country are corrupt.
I comment:
Good. But ask more, ask more loudly, because what you object to is exactly what they are doing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
JEdwards writes:
I would ask Trump and his supporters to be mindful of the potential damage to our country of relying on relatively weak evidence to suggest that hundreds or thousands of election workers in our country are corrupt.
I comment:
Good. But ask more, ask more loudly, because what you object to is exactly what they are doing.
And if there is one thing that has proven to build trust, it is meeting objections with the combination of repetition and volume. It is why Charles has always been such unifying, de-escalating presence in this forum.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 03:58:03 PM
I know it doesn’t make any sense to you, Peter. But here’s my take.
When people are doing crappy things that are hurting the country, you ask them to stop doing those things.
When they keep on doing them, you ask them again. And again. And again. Until they stop.
No one has proven any serious voter fraud. No one expects to prove any serious voter fraud.
And yet your guy, many of his followers, and you keep claiming or suggesting voter fraud.
Your guy is holding up the transition to a new administration in ways that are seriously dangerous for our country.
Continued talk about voter fraud when none has been proven is dangerous for our country.
So as long as you and your guy keep doing these things, we will keep asking you to stop doing them.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 15, 2020, 04:01:27 PM
I think it is so funny that some of you on this board insist that President-Elect Biden is a presumptive President-Elect only. Five seconds after Trump stepped over the magical 270 line in 2016 he was President-Elect and no one brought up this, "Oh, but he isn't until..."

Didn't the Department of Homeland Security state the other day that 2020 Election was the most secure and safe one ever? Yet, again some of you insist that there had to have been fraud, rampant or otherwise. Thousands marched today in DC insisting that the election was stolen. The Department of Homeland Security is under Trump's purview. How many attorneys have now walked away from being connected to this paranoia because there was no basis?
Mr Martin ... today there is far less respect for the press than anytime in the country’s history.  The press including Fox cuts away from Presidential statements because they have anointed themselves as ‘fact checkers’.  The media’s job is to report the news... not be the news. Facts can be checked after the speech is over ... they don’t have to interrupt it!


The press are not in the business of reporting lies as truth. A lie is not news. It's one person's mistaken opinion, or a purposeful attempt to deceive. διάβολος (diabolos) which is often translated "devil," literally means, "the slanderer." John 8:44 has Jesus saying: Your father is the devil [diabolos]. You are his children, and you want to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has never stood for the truth, because there’s no truth in him. Whenever that liar speaks, he speaks according to his own nature, because he’s a liar and the father of liars.

If any news organization is not going to be the tool of the devil, it must seek to show the truth and avoid lies.

This is why half the country doesn’t trust the press. Precisely because they lie, and are therefore in your own words tools of the devil.


Whenever I've seen the mainline news agency discover that they reported an untruth, they apologize and correct the mistake.


Essentially, that's the difference between sin and evil, according to M. Scott Peck in People of the Lie. Sinners are willing to repent of their sins when they become known. Evil people refuse to admit that they have made any mistakes. They see no reason to repent.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Bryan Anderson on November 15, 2020, 04:39:04 PM
I heard a provocative comment the other day, "Democrats are very good at winning elections...at any cost."
And I remembered this incident:  https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/08/473548674/why-the-fbi-director-puts-tape-over-his-webcam.

Why is it so impossible for some to consider that our election can be compromised, especially when they spent the last four years saying so.

Democrats used the Pandemic to weaken the checks on an already questionable election system.  Pollsters made wildly inaccurate projections (again!) that played a large role in campaign fundraising and morale.  Most media did nothing but bash the president, all the while handling Biden with kid gloves.  Social media consistently censored conservatives. 

Now we know there are serious statistical anomalies with the 2020 election begging explanation.   Dead persons have somehow voted.  Non-residents have voted.  There is the questionable practice of ballot harvesting.  There have been different standards for the curing of ballots.  Not to mention the failure of signature checking and the decidedly low rejection rate of tainted ballots.  And numerous affidavits contending election observers were shut out from meaningful interaction with the election process.

While I’m reasonably certain that our new President will be Biden.  And I will respect and pray for him and his office.  Are some really that obtuse that they see nothing wrong with the 2020 election?

As Biden would say, “Come on man!”
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 15, 2020, 04:45:59 PM
There is very little chance working together civilly.
Of course, I hold out some limited and qualified hope that this may prove to be untrue in more cases than not, but seeing the televised clashes of Trump supporters and Biden supporters on the streets of DC, my optimism took a direct hit. If the anti-Trump loathing even on this forum is any indication of sentiment outside these limited discussions, my hope again takes more hits.  The division grows. Lord have mercy...
Anti-Trump opinions have been expressed on this forum as have pro-Trump opinions. Opinions on both sides reflected the division that exists in our country.  On what basis is the claim made that the anti-Trump posts on this Forum expressed personal loathing of the man?

Interestingly the front page of the Sunday New York Times called attention to the Rev. Fred Krebs, a Lutheran pastor in Mason, Texas. " "We pray for peaceful transition,' he told his congregation of 50 people."  Krebs continued, "Defining people strictly by their parties is not a good thing. And I've learned that sometimes people think more deeply when they get into a conversation than when we just start labeling one another."
 
Marie Meyer
Rev. Alfred Krebs (https://www.hillcountrypassport.com/mason/article/16207/st.-paul-lutheran-church-welomes-new-pastor) has served St. Paul Lutheran (ELCA) (https://stpaulmason.com/), Mason since August 2016.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 15, 2020, 05:07:18 PM
When I started this thread I had hopes that we might pass from acrimony towards harmony both in the larger context and here on this venerable Forum.  Trump and his supporters will not concede.  Past Presidents have graciously congratulated their successors.   Trump, if he does not go on his own, might be escorted out by the Secret Service.    I do hope that the country will move on after Trump goes. I believe the the participants on the Forum are engaged in considerations of over-all good things and will move away from fear and hysteria.   I read with great interest how parish pastors continue to minister in the fact of great odds.    I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue.
Perhaps Mr. Teigen should specifically identify the “ugly”posts of which he speaks.  Routinely he and his sidekick fabricate accusations of “ugliness” and “personal attack” ..providing no specific examples of these egregious accusations.

Men ... the body of posts is available ...prove your accusations ... or admit such maliciously undocumented accusations are simply bogus lies.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: JEdwards on November 15, 2020, 06:49:06 PM
Dead persons have somehow voted.  Non-residents have voted.
Such assertions can and should be evaluated according to our legal process. With its army of lawyers, I’m sure that the President’s team is capable of identifying credible evidence that this has happened and presenting the evidence to the appropriate court. I’m willing to concede that the courts are better equipped than you or I to determine the existence and magnitude of problems like this. Are you?

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 07:02:00 PM
I know it doesn’t make any sense to you, Peter. But here’s my take.
When people are doing crappy things that are hurting the country, you ask them to stop doing those things.
When they keep on doing them, you ask them again. And again. And again. Until they stop.
No one has proven any serious voter fraud. No one expects to prove any serious voter fraud.
And yet your guy, many of his followers, and you keep claiming or suggesting voter fraud.
Your guy is holding up the transition to a new administration in ways that are seriously dangerous for our country.
Continued talk about voter fraud when none has been proven is dangerous for our country.
So as long as you and your guy keep doing these things, we will keep asking you to stop doing them.
How would one prove voter fraud without suggesting it or looking into it?

You keep saying it is seriously dangerous to our country (again, the correct, approved terminology is "extremely dangerous to our democracy") without saying what exactly is dangerous about contesting election results or pointing out instances of fraud or obvious security gaps in the process. Your side is the only proven violent side. You and yours, if you don't get your way, will burn down cities. Leftists riot and loot. Conservatives do not. You project your own violent impulses onto others when you assume others would do as your side would do. 

There is far greater danger to our nation and democracy if the populace gets conditioned to trust the system implicitly. Constant vigilance is the price of liberty. Critics of constant vigilance are not friends of liberty. But then, liberty as a value is on the wane. So when ballot counters do things like tell the GOP observers to go home because they're done counting for the night but then keep counting through the night, the presumption ceases to be of innocence. The only rational presumption is of guilt. Anyone even moderately interested in making sure everyone knew that the vote count was on the up and up would have refused in principle to continue counting votes until the observers had been called back. So can anyone prove something illegal happened? No. Is the rational inference that people doing everything in their power not to be observed by the legal observers are doing something that would not withstand legal scrutiny? Yes. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2020, 07:03:36 PM
Dead persons have somehow voted.  Non-residents have voted.
Such assertions can and should be evaluated according to our legal process. With its army of lawyers, I’m sure that the President’s team is capable of identifying credible evidence that this has happened and presenting the evidence to the appropriate court. I’m willing to concede that the courts are better equipped than you or I to determine the existence and magnitude of problems like this. Are you?
Agreed. The problem is that even hiring a team of lawyers and threatening to take it to court is now seen as dangerous to our nation. You must admit there is no proof and decry anyone who looks for proof in order to be a good citizen. 
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 08:20:26 PM
Bryan Anderson:
Why is it so impossible for some to consider that our election can be compromised, especially when they spent the last four years saying so.
Me:
I have not said it for the last four years. But I know elections can be compromised. The Russians tried, but failed.

Bryan Anderson:
Democrats used the Pandemic to weaken the checks on an already questionable election system.
Me:
How? Be specific.

Bryan Anderson:
Pollsters made wildly inaccurate projections (again!) that played a large role in campaign fundraising and morale.
Me:
Everybody, all sides, had their pollsters. So what?

Bryan Anderson:
Most media did nothing but bash the president, all the while handling Biden with kid gloves. 
Me:
If you mean pointing out lies, correcting errors, and chronicling awkward moments, that is not "bashing." It is doing what media is supposed to do. As for Biden, much was written about his age, his health, his past record in the senate and as vice presiden.

Bryan Anderson:
Social media consistently censored conservatives.
Me:
Hogwash.
Little restraints were put on social media postings until very recently. Social media cannot "censor," that is a term generally applied to government. But any publisher has the right to decide what goes in his publication. Social media are publications.

Bryan Anderson:
Now we know there are serious statistical anomalies with the 2020 election begging explanation.   Dead persons have somehow voted.  Non-residents have voted.
Me:
Maybe. Probably. But not as a massive campaign to steal the election. And not enough to change the results.

Bryan Anderson:
There is the questionable practice of ballot harvesting.  There have been different standards for the curing of ballots.  Not to mention the failure of signature checking and the decidedly low rejection rate of tainted ballots.  And numerous affidavits contending election observers were shut out from meaningful interaction with the election process.
Me:
All these things have been investigated and found wanting.

Bryan Anderson:
While I’m reasonably certain that our new President will be Biden.  And I will respect and pray for him and his office.  Are some really that obtuse that they see nothing wrong with the 2020 election?
Me:
There were things wrong with the 2020 election. The president sought to undermine it long before any votes were casts. Republicans and their sympathizers tried to minimize voting in areas where Democrats were statistically significant. Some states have inefficient and inept counting systems.
And - things have been investigated. But nothing - repeat nothing - has turned up any significant existence of massive voter fraud.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 15, 2020, 08:30:20 PM
Trump’s efforts to undermine our elections began before he was elected and sped up as his poll observers saw he was losing. This answers some questions raised by Bryan Anderson:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/us/politics/trump-voter-fraud-claims.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Julio on November 15, 2020, 08:40:07 PM
I do fear  that the misinformation and ugly comments which the 'Julios' perpetuate will continue.
Point of clarification ... disagreement is not “ugly” ... disagreement is not hate ... disagreement is not personal attack ... and finally disagreement (or Having a differing opinion) is not misinformation.

However, incessantly speaking evil and lies about President Trump IS a violation of the eighth commandment as well as the Biblical admonition to pray for rulers and all in authority.

Guess other spell checkers foul up forum member names too.🤭
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 16, 2020, 12:49:00 AM
I know it doesn’t make any sense to you, Peter. But here’s my take.
When people are doing crappy things that are hurting the country, you ask them to stop doing those things.
When they keep on doing them, you ask them again. And again. And again. Until they stop.
No one has proven any serious voter fraud. No one expects to prove any serious voter fraud.
And yet your guy, many of his followers, and you keep claiming or suggesting voter fraud.
Your guy is holding up the transition to a new administration in ways that are seriously dangerous for our country.
Continued talk about voter fraud when none has been proven is dangerous for our country.
So as long as you and your guy keep doing these things, we will keep asking you to stop doing them.
How would one prove voter fraud without suggesting it or looking into it?

You keep saying it is seriously dangerous to our country (again, the correct, approved terminology is "extremely dangerous to our democracy") without saying what exactly is dangerous about contesting election results or pointing out instances of fraud or obvious security gaps in the process. Your side is the only proven violent side. You and yours, if you don't get your way, will burn down cities. Leftists riot and loot. Conservatives do not. You project your own violent impulses onto others when you assume others would do as your side would do. 

There is far greater danger to our nation and democracy if the populace gets conditioned to trust the system implicitly. Constant vigilance is the price of liberty. Critics of constant vigilance are not friends of liberty. But then, liberty as a value is on the wane. So when ballot counters do things like tell the GOP observers to go home because they're done counting for the night but then keep counting through the night, the presumption ceases to be of innocence. The only rational presumption is of guilt. Anyone even moderately interested in making sure everyone knew that the vote count was on the up and up would have refused in principle to continue counting votes until the observers had been called back. So can anyone prove something illegal happened? No. Is the rational inference that people doing everything in their power not to be observed by the legal observers are doing something that would not withstand legal scrutiny? Yes.


The problem is that these lawsuits, without any credible evidence, are already undermining trust in the system. The people in charge of the elections in each state have attested that there was no fraud; and if they suspect any, they are taking action. Where the votes have been very close, recounts are taking place.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 16, 2020, 12:52:43 AM
Dead persons have somehow voted.  Non-residents have voted.
Such assertions can and should be evaluated according to our legal process. With its army of lawyers, I’m sure that the President’s team is capable of identifying credible evidence that this has happened and presenting the evidence to the appropriate court. I’m willing to concede that the courts are better equipped than you or I to determine the existence and magnitude of problems like this. Are you?
Agreed. The problem is that even hiring a team of lawyers and threatening to take it to court is now seen as dangerous to our nation. You must admit there is no proof and decry anyone who looks for proof in order to be a good citizen.


Yup. By hiring a team of lawyers and seeking to take it to court, they are already assuming that there was something wrong with the vote counting. It indicates that they do not believe the election officials who state that this was the most accurate counting with no evidence of fraud.


One doesn't pay lawyers thousands of dollars to go to court with the expectation of losing.
Title: Re: Now that the 2020 Election is over....
Post by: Charles Austin on November 16, 2020, 05:27:20 AM
Pastor Stoffregen:
One doesn't pay lawyers thousands of dollars to go to court with the expectation of losing.
Me:
In this situation, maybe he does. Lawyers had to know the cases were frivolous. Some quit even though he wanted them to continue. The purpose of the lawsuits may not be to win the case, but to stoke his ego, make his supporters think he has been cheated and cast doubt on our system of voting. Then the Trump cult media pours fuel on the fire. And he “wins” more cheers from his crowd of cultists. For some strange reason, Republicans - for it is party money paying the lawyers - go along with the madnes