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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 15, 2020, 10:22:02 AM

Title: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 15, 2020, 10:22:02 AM
I am considering whether to have youth catechism classes online. I have been exploring available videos on YouTube and found some good content. However, much of it seems oriented to older users. Does anyone know whether a congregation has created video content for Exploring Luther's Small Catechism: A Workbook for Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation, prepared by Robert C. Sauer, edited by Rodney L. Rathmann?

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions. Any news about how you are handling these matters in your congregations would be welcome. God bless.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rob Morris on September 15, 2020, 10:48:59 AM
Our 2020 Confirmation class will be resuming to finish up and prep for the young people's postponed-until-now Confirmation. We will meet in person following the same precautions our school system is following: 6 feet of distance... outdoors if possible. The one difference from the school is that once students are settled 6 feet apart, masks will be optional.

I waited to do their Confirmation until all the Confirmation families were comfortable with an in-person Confirmation service, as I didn't want our young people (or our congregation) to miss out on that. God willing, no executive orders will change between now and October 11th, or planning will get more complicated!
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 11:56:58 AM
Our 2020 Confirmation class will be resuming to finish up and prep for the young people's postponed-until-now Confirmation. We will meet in person following the same precautions our school system is following: 6 feet of distance... outdoors if possible. The one difference from the school is that once students are settled 6 feet apart, masks will be optional.

I waited to do their Confirmation until all the Confirmation families were comfortable with an in-person Confirmation service, as I didn't want our young people (or our congregation) to miss out on that. God willing, no executive orders will change between now and October 11th, or planning will get more complicated!
In person confirmation .. so the young people (or our congregation) ... will the examination be included in the October 11 service as well?

Tragically in many congregations the examination has been removed from the service in which confirmation takes place ... sometimes replaced with a mid week examination primarily attended by family only .... often replaced with some sort of personal statement.

In the congregation I was confirmed in, the examination was included in the Sunday service of confirmation ... yes the service ran a bit long. 

Each year the pastor explained that the purpose of the examination was not for his benefit ... he already was well aware of the strengths and weakness of each confirmand ... but rather it was for the benefit and review of the congregation in the pews ... do they remember the answers to the questions from their confirmation and study of the catechism and Bible?

By the way ... the questions were all off the cuff ... no prepared list of questions .. yes many of the questions were probably catechism questions ... the public examination was truly a blessing to the entire congregation.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 12:10:18 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 12:32:38 PM
Actually, James, we had heard of the "gay lifestyle" in Iowa in the 1950s, we just didn't know much about it or try to comprehend it, except to make fun of it.
In my Luther League circles - 1956-1961 - statewide and nationally, we were indeed discussing ordination for women, usually on the negative side, but not always. It was on the table.
"A changeless Christ in a changing world" is not a bad slogan. I like it.
P.S. Has everyone purchased Moderator Richard's fine book "Changing World: Changeless Christ"? If you haven't, you are freeloading on the ALPB by participating in this forum. You should subscribe to the magazine and newsletter too.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on September 15, 2020, 12:39:46 PM
When I was confirmed we weren't questioned in front of the congregation.  There about a dozen people in my class and we were in the church conference room.  Pr. Klinefelter went down the hall and called us in one by one.  Then we left by a back door to the church so those still in the conference room never saw them leave.  It was a little nerve wracking, although probably not as much as it would have been in the front of the congregation on Sunday morning.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 15, 2020, 01:02:19 PM
When I was confirmed we weren't questioned in front of the congregation.  There about a dozen people in my class and we were in the church conference room.  Pr. Klinefelter went down the hall and called us in one by one.  Then we left by a back door to the church so those still in the conference room never saw them leave.  It was a little nerve wracking, although probably not as much as it would have been in the front of the congregation on Sunday morning.
When I did youth confirmation, questioning was not in front of the congregation but in front of their families, the Elders, and anyone who wanted to come. I prepared a 100 question short answer test. The confirmands were given the test several weeks before the questioning. At the questioning they could not use notes. I would start asking the questions and students would raise their hands to answer. Each student needed to answer 6 questions. But they needed to prepare more questions to answer since they did not know if I would ask the questions that they prepared, or call on a different student. If I made it through all 100 questions before they answered their 6, they failed. Never really happened. The questioning was to allow them to show off that they had learned. The real value was in their review to prepare for the test.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 15, 2020, 01:23:14 PM
Since 1992, I've had parents participate in their children's confirmation classes. The Small Catechism was written for parents to teach it to their children, not the pastor. Studies show that the parent's involvement in church is the most significant key in the children remaining involved. It is the parents and sponsors who promise to teach their children at baptisms. Turning it over to the church is neglecting their promises.


Anyway, at our first meeting I would ask the parents about their confirmation experiences. How was it structured? What did they learn? What do they remember? A parent who enjoyed the experience and remembered it positively was the exception. Most remembered little or nothing. They found it a negative experience - especially those who had to stand before the congregation and answer questions.


One of the interesting findings of the 1970 Lutheran Joint Study Commission on Confirmation Ministry was that we had not definition of confirmation! As I recall, they noted five traditions that had been carried on by different segments of Lutheranism in the U.S., such as the examination before the congregation; or assigning or choosing a confirmation Bible verse. While there were different traditions, there wasn't a clear reason for why we we doing these things. The commission offered this goal of confirmation ministry: "to identify more deeply with the Christian community and participate more fully in its mission."


Where did confirmation come from? The earliest records show that first communion, confirmation (laying on of hands), and baptism all happened at the same time.


As near as anyone has figured out, confirmation began during the period of "heretics." It was a way for the bishop to ascertain that a baptism by a heretical priest was valid. It was an affirmation of the baptism by the bishop.


When I went through confirmation, it was basically to teach students enough so that they would worthily receive Holy Communion. That was sort of our reward for successfully getting through the classes. That practice undermined our theology of salvation by grace. A study in 1968 recommended separating first communion from confirmation. When I started seminary in 1972, Wartburg Seminary was communing children as young as 2 years old. However, they still held on to the old model of knowledge. It was thought that such a child understood the ideas of sin (making mistakes) and forgiveness so that they would receive worthily.


Why confirm? It's not a sacrament for Lutherans. It doesn't add anything to the baptismal grace from God.


One answer is that nearly all cultures have a ritual to denote a child has become an adult. Jews have bar and bat mitzvahs. That's part of the confirmation ritual.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Actually, James, we had heard of the "gay lifestyle" in Iowa in the 1950s, we just didn't know much about it or try to comprehend it, except to make fun of it.
In my Luther League circles - 1956-1961 - statewide and nationally, we were indeed discussing ordination for women, usually on the negative side, but not always. It was on the table.
"A changeless Christ in a changing world" is not a bad slogan. I like it.
P.S. Has everyone purchased Moderator Richard's fine book "Changing World: Changeless Christ"? If you haven't, you are freeloading on the ALPB by participating in this forum. You should subscribe to the magazine and newsletter too.

Oh, Iowa in the 1950's!  Don't get me started on THAT.  Made Las Vegas and New Orleans, San Francisco and even Sodom and Gormorrah look tame and straight-laced. 
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J.L. Precup on September 15, 2020, 01:27:31 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 15, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 01:56:46 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 01:58:33 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.

As to your last sentence, I am sure that many did. 
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 15, 2020, 01:59:59 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.


Many of the adults who came to class thought that Schwann's (or some other writer's) book of explanation was The Small Catechism. They were surprised when I handed out the small pamphlet that was just Luther's Small Catechism.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J.L. Precup on September 15, 2020, 02:13:43 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).

My confirmation Pastor died two years after he confirmed me.  Based on his telling my Roman Catholic father in an adult confirmation class the same year that there really isn't that much difference between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, he probably would approve of my writing. He did have to write a letter of recommendation for me to attend prep school at Concordia, Milwaukee.  He assured the registrar that I would make a fine pastor.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 15, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
About 15 or so years ago I got a series of 6 posters of the Small Catechism, I think it was from CTSFW. CPH now has a set of catechism posters available for about $30. https://www.cph.org/p-27995-small-catechism-posters-set-of-6.aspx (https://www.cph.org/p-27995-small-catechism-posters-set-of-6.aspx)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Mike in Pennsylvania on September 15, 2020, 02:17:44 PM
Mine (1962) was the last confirmation class at my LCMS congregation to have a public examination.  As near as I recall, I blew my question but was confirmed anyway.  The examination occurred during the Sunday School hour a week prior to confirmation.  The following year, our pastor despaired of what might happen with that class so much that he switched to having them write personal essays, which were read the week before when the public examination would have occurred.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 02:20:54 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).

My confirmation Pastor died two years after he confirmed me.  Based on his telling my Roman Catholic father in an adult confirmation class the same year that there really isn't that much difference between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, he probably would approve of my writing. He did have to write a letter of recommendation for me to attend prep school at Concordia, Milwaukee.  He assured the registrar that I would make a fine pastor.

1. Given what James has written about his pastor, I would guess his pastor would agree with much of what James has written.

2. Was your father taking the adult confirmation class to join the LCMS congregation?  If so, I would not be surprised that your pastor would choose to accentuate the points of agreement.  It would be interesting to know if, in the course of the instruction, your pastor did not also explain/discuss the points of disagreement. 
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 04:00:08 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.
Many of the adults who came to class thought that Schwann's (or some other writer's) book of explanation was The Small Catechism. They were surprised when I handed out the small pamphlet that was just Luther's Small Catechism.
The blue cover successor to the Schwann catechism was clearly titled ‘Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation’. While I don’t have my copy close at hand, I believe it included the 20-30 page catechism ... followed by the explanation ... including questions, answers and Biblical support.


Was the catechism carrying the name of an LCMS president widely used outside the LCMS circles?  Given that Rev Stoffregen’s ministry began in the ‘70’s in the ALC, its surprising that many had knowledge of the Schwann catechism.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 15, 2020, 04:49:20 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.
Many of the adults who came to class thought that Schwann's (or some other writer's) book of explanation was The Small Catechism. They were surprised when I handed out the small pamphlet that was just Luther's Small Catechism.
The blue cover successor to the Schwann catechism was clearly titled ‘Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation’. While I don’t have my copy close at hand, I believe it included the 20-30 page catechism ... followed by the explanation ... including questions, answers and Biblical support.


Was the catechism carrying the name of an LCMS president widely used outside the LCMS circles?  Given that Rev Stoffregen’s ministry began in the ‘70’s in the ALC, its surprising that many had knowledge of the Schwann catechism.


I estimate that at one congregation I served half or more of the members had been LCMS. The LCMS pastor in town at that time was ultra conservative. Women did not vote - and would never vote as long as he was pastor there. He did not believe dinosaurs existed because they are not in the Bible. The fossils in the Dinosaur National Monument (85 miles south of the town) were placed there by God to confuse unbelievers.


One of those who came to our church reported that the pastor told them in the new member class, that if they didn't agree with everything he was teaching them, they shouldn't join the congregation. They didn't agree with everything he was teaching them. My predecessor called that pastor, "My best evangelist." Many LCMS folks moved to down visited his church, then joined ours.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 15, 2020, 05:03:50 PM
Such a great surprise that there have been LCMS pastors that are, to say the least, maladroit. That, of course, not only gives the rest of us a bad name but is representative of how all the rest of us are. There in a nut shell is all of us, if one was we all must be that way.


Naturally, the ELCA has had no pastors maladroit, or who insisted that what they taught was the absolute truth that everybody must agree, or who made essential to the Gospel what was peripheral, such as political or social issues that he/she felt strongly about.


No doubt, that is why over the years the ELCA has been growing so much more than the LCMS, or at least shrinking less.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 05:09:54 PM
Pastor Bohler, do you have a problem with my reflections on growing up in Iowa in the 1950s?
Here’s another tidbit. Like many of my male friends, I joined the Order of DeMolay, the Masonic organization for boys. It was what people of a certain social status, or people who aspired to a certain social status did. Active I was, an officer in the chapter, and as a senior in high school, I was being groomed for entry into the Masonic Blue Lodge. But I had become concerned about the theology I was hearing among the Masons, fearing it conflicted with what I thought was good Christian doctrine. I studied Missouri Synod material on Freemasonry and was convinced by its arguments against the Lodge. So when the DeMolay Chapter said it was  “elevating” me to its Chevalier degree, I refused the honor and said I was leaving freemasonry because it conflicted with my Christian faith. Caused quite a stir in the chapter and with the men preparing me for the lodge.
My ULCA was loose on the question, But the Augustana synod had always said the clergy could not be Masons or members of an organization “That claimed for itself what God has given solely to the church,” namely teachings about God and a “plan for salvation.”
Had some fun as a DeMolay though, and our Tuxedo and White Dinner Jacket formal dances with chapters of the Rainbow Girls, The Masonic counterpart for the distaff sex, were the social events of the various seasons. The young woman who became Beloved Spouse was a rainbow girl.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).

My confirmation Pastor died two years after he confirmed me.  Based on his telling my Roman Catholic father in an adult confirmation class the same year that there really isn't that much difference between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, he probably would approve of my writing. He did have to write a letter of recommendation for me to attend prep school at Concordia, Milwaukee.  He assured the registrar that I would make a fine pastor.

1. Given what James has written about his pastor, I would guess his pastor would agree with much of what James has written.

2. Was your father taking the adult confirmation class to join the LCMS congregation?  If so, I would not be surprised that your pastor would choose to accentuate the points of agreement.  It would be interesting to know if, in the course of the instruction, your pastor did not also explain/discuss the points of disagreement. 
Perhaps Rev Precup failed to read that my public examination by my pastor was not for his benefit or mine ... but for the benefit of the congregation ... hardly a negative statement.

For all the other negativity surrounding public examination, we were not facing the congregation, our confirmation that day did not depend on the number of questions correctly answered.  Answering the questions publicly was less stressful than speaking publicly before high school and college peers and classmates later in life.

My confirmation pastor and all the other men I have been privileged to call pastors have always urged that we ‘contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’ (Jude 3)

My confirmation pastor contended for the faith ... and was ostracized for it.  During the Seminex days my confirmation pastor’s circuit memorialized the district convention to support all seminary students. On the floor of of the district convention he employed the Benhken rule allowing him to amend the resulting resolution to support only those students attending synodical seminaries ... an amendment that that passed by 5 or 6 votes. His name was sh*t in the circuit and mud in the district the remaining 25+ years of his ministry.  No doubt Rev Precup considers my pastor’s contending for the faith a negative ... so consider the source of the negativity accusation ... in the minds of many, the actions of my pastor were bold and a God pleasing positive.

Rev Precup, it is the heresy of the Seminex era that is the source of whatever negativity you create or perceive.  I contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints ... that’s a powerful positive!
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 05:27:00 PM
P.S. And one year, because we knew how to wear a tuxedo and move with the formal manners of Fred Astaire in a 1935 movie, some of us DeMolays were recruited to be “escorts” for the contestants in the Miss Sioux City contest, ushering them on stage and down the “runway” at the pageant. That was fun.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 05:44:27 PM
To be honest confirmation instruction for 7th and 8th graders in the 1950's
for LCMS students was all about the ability to memorize.  Luther's Six Chief
Parts of his Small Catechism, Schwann's questions and answers which explained
the Small Catechism, and selected Bible passages.

There was not much of an attempt to apply our faith in Jesus Christ to our daily
life. Instead the pastor lectured the class on his interpretation of Schwann's
explanation of the Small Catechism.  Students who had difficulty with memorizing
felt left out and were shamed.  The Herr Pastor was  legalistic.  Hopefully, others
in the 1950's had a better experience.
Many of the adults who came to class thought that Schwann's (or some other writer's) book of explanation was The Small Catechism. They were surprised when I handed out the small pamphlet that was just Luther's Small Catechism.
The blue cover successor to the Schwann catechism was clearly titled ‘Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation’. While I don’t have my copy close at hand, I believe it included the 20-30 page catechism ... followed by the explanation ... including questions, answers and Biblical support.

Was the catechism carrying the name of an LCMS president widely used outside the LCMS circles?  Given that Rev Stoffregen’s ministry began in the ‘70’s in the ALC, its surprising that many had knowledge of the Schwann catechism.
I estimate that at one congregation I served half or more of the members had been LCMS. The LCMS pastor in town at that time was ultra conservative. Women did not vote - and would never vote as long as he was pastor there. He did not believe dinosaurs existed because they are not in the Bible. The fossils in the Dinosaur National Monument (85 miles south of the town) were placed there by God to confuse unbelievers.

One of those who came to our church reported that the pastor told them in the new member class, that if they didn't agree with everything he was teaching them, they shouldn't join the congregation. They didn't agree with everything he was teaching them. My predecessor called that pastor, "My best evangelist." Many LCMS folks moved to down visited his church, then joined ours.
Avoiding Rev Precup’s negativity, apparently the gain of additional members by you and your predecessor was a gain for both your congregation and the local LCMS congregation as well.🤩
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 15, 2020, 05:46:52 PM
My father was a procurement analyst for the Weapons Command at the Rock Island
Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois.  It is a Federal Military Installation.  Early in his
career, he was approached by some Masonic Lodge members in his department to
join the Masons.  They liked his moral character and were willing to pay the fees
to make him a 33rd degree Mason.

My father politely refused and said that his Christian beliefs conflicted with the
Mason's teachings.  Today, of course the Masonic Lodge membership is down
and it is no longer seen as a stepping stone in job advancement.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J.L. Precup on September 15, 2020, 06:22:25 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).

My confirmation Pastor died two years after he confirmed me.  Based on his telling my Roman Catholic father in an adult confirmation class the same year that there really isn't that much difference between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, he probably would approve of my writing. He did have to write a letter of recommendation for me to attend prep school at Concordia, Milwaukee.  He assured the registrar that I would make a fine pastor.

1. Given what James has written about his pastor, I would guess his pastor would agree with much of what James has written.

2. Was your father taking the adult confirmation class to join the LCMS congregation?  If so, I would not be surprised that your pastor would choose to accentuate the points of agreement.  It would be interesting to know if, in the course of the instruction, your pastor did not also explain/discuss the points of disagreement. 
Perhaps Rev Precup failed to read that my public examination by my pastor was not for his benefit or mine ... but for the benefit of the congregation ... hardly a negative statement.

For all the other negativity surrounding public examination, we were not facing the congregation, our confirmation that day did not depend on the number of questions correctly answered.  Answering the questions publicly was less stressful than speaking publicly before high school and college peers and classmates later in life.

My confirmation pastor and all the other men I have been privileged to call pastors have always urged that we ‘contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints’ (Jude 3)

My confirmation pastor contended for the faith ... and was ostracized for it.  During the Seminex days my confirmation pastor’s circuit memorialized the district convention to support all seminary students. On the floor of of the district convention he employed the Benhken rule allowing him to amend the resulting resolution to support only those students attending synodical seminaries ... an amendment that that passed by 5 or 6 votes. His name was sh*t in the circuit and mud in the district the remaining 25+ years of his ministry.  No doubt Rev Precup considers my pastor’s contending for the faith a negative ... so consider the source of the negativity accusation ... in the minds of many, the actions of my pastor were bold and a God pleasing positive.

Rev Precup, it is the heresy of the Seminex era that is the source of whatever negativity you create or perceive.  I contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints ... that’s a powerful positive!

James, you're not even close to answering the question...nothing negative to it at all:  does your pastor know what you are writing here?  If he does, I'd like to have a fraternal discussion with him.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
I vividly remember my confirmation examination, and - then and now - it had almost nothing to do with my faith. I was very good at memorizing things and it was easy to commit the Catechism to memory, the same way I memorized poems for English class, speeches for a speech class, and dates and names for history classes.
The confirmation exam was just another pre-teen hoop I had to jump through on my way to the greater fun of being 15, 16 and 17. Getting a "learner's permit" from the Department of Motor Vehicles meant more to me at the time.
That I later came to a deeper, meaningful, sustaining and more personal faith had little to do with that Confirmation exercise. 
Your experiences may vary.
But then you no longer believe much learned during your confirmation days ... the killing babies was unheard of and a violation of the fifth commandment then ... the little heard of gay lifestyle was forbidden by the sixth commandment then ... and the biggest thing you often brag about ... during confirmation women clergy was off the table ... now you feign enlightenment to the contrary.


But carry on ... the truths taught me in confirmation remain truths today ... I learned of a changeless Christ in a changing world.

James, I am glad you passed your confirmation examination.  But now?  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  Does he approve?  Did he train you to emphasize what you are against rather than what (or who) you are for?  More importantly, do you believe you are honoring the Christian faith by what you write here?

Good questions.  Now, let me ask them of you (substituting your confirmation pastor instead of your current pastor).

My confirmation Pastor died two years after he confirmed me.  Based on his telling my Roman Catholic father in an adult confirmation class the same year that there really isn't that much difference between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, he probably would approve of my writing. He did have to write a letter of recommendation for me to attend prep school at Concordia, Milwaukee.  He assured the registrar that I would make a fine pastor.

1. Given what James has written about his pastor, I would guess his pastor would agree with much of what James has written.

2. Was your father taking the adult confirmation class to join the LCMS congregation?  If so, I would not be surprised that your pastor would choose to accentuate the points of agreement.  It would be interesting to know if, in the course of the instruction, your pastor did not also explain/discuss the points of disagreement. 
Perhaps Rev Precup failed to read that my public examination by my pastor was not for his benefit or mine ... but for the benefit of the congregation ... hardly a negative statement.

For all the other negativity surrounding public examination, we were not facing the congregation, our confirmation that day did not depend on the number of questions correctly answered.  Answering the questions publicly was less stressful than speaking publicly before high school and college peers and classmates later in life.

My confirmation pastor and all the other men I have been privileged to call pastors have always urged that we ‘contendforthefaith that was once for all delivered to the saints’ (Jude 3)

My confirmation pastor contended for the faith ... and was ostracized for it.  During the Seminex days my confirmation pastor’s circuit memorialized the district convention to support all seminary students. On the floor of of the district convention he employed the Benhken rule allowing him to amend the resulting resolution to support only those students attending synodical seminaries ... an amendment that that passed by 5 or 6 votes. His name was sh*t in the circuit and mud in the district the remaining 25+ years of his ministry.  No doubt Rev Precup considers my pastor’s contending for the faith a negative ... so consider the source of the negativity accusation ... in the minds of many, the actions of my pastor were bold and a God pleasing positive.

Rev Precup, it is the heresy of the Seminex era that is the source of whatever negativity you create or perceive.  I contendforthefaith that was once for all delivered to the saints ... that’s a powerful positive!

James, you're not even close to answering the question...nothing negative to it at all:  does your pastor know what you are writing here?  If he does, I'd like to have a fraternal discussion with him.
Let’s see ... the pastor who baptized and confirmed me graduated CSL in the 50’s (very much aware of the brewing problems) ... confirmed me in the ‘70’s ... retired sometime before Y2K ... this is up in years if not in glory.  I’m no longer a member of that congregation ... I have not seen his name listed as a forum member .. but since almost all the time there are more guests than forum members viewing forum posts, your guess is a good as mine.


 Unless you can document a similar interest in the pastor who confirmed other forum members, it would seem I may have already provided too much information. I guess if there is a confirmation reunion next year at that congregation which recently left synod and I’m inclined to attend, I could inquire if he reads my forum posts ... if I remember🤩😂
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 08:20:20 PM
Pastor Bohler, do you have a problem with my reflections on growing up in Iowa in the 1950s?
Here’s another tidbit. Like many of my male friends, I joined the Order of DeMolay, the Masonic organization for boys. It was what people of a certain social status, or people who aspired to a certain social status did. Active I was, an officer in the chapter, and as a senior in high school, I was being groomed for entry into the Masonic Blue Lodge. But I had become concerned about the theology I was hearing among the Masons, fearing it conflicted with what I thought was good Christian doctrine. I studied Missouri Synod material on Freemasonry and was convinced by its arguments against the Lodge. So when the DeMolay Chapter said it was  “elevating” me to its Chevalier degree, I refused the honor and said I was leaving freemasonry because it conflicted with my Christian faith. Caused quite a stir in the chapter and with the men preparing me for the lodge.
My ULCA was loose on the question, But the Augustana synod had always said the clergy could not be Masons or members of an organization “That claimed for itself what God has given solely to the church,” namely teachings about God and a “plan for salvation.”
Had some fun as a DeMolay though, and our Tuxedo and White Dinner Jacket formal dances with chapters of the Rainbow Girls, The Masonic counterpart for the distaff sex, were the social events of the various seasons. The young woman who became Beloved Spouse was a rainbow girl.

No, I have no problems with your memories of 1950's Iowa.  I just get a kick out of how it must have prepared you for the LBGQT agenda.  After all, your wife WAS a rainbow girl.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 08:24:22 PM
James,
I think Rev. Precup is asking for the name of your current pastor.  So he can have a "fraternal" conversation with him.  You know, the kind of mobbing activity that he and others so decry.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J.L. Precup on September 15, 2020, 08:52:17 PM
"Let’s see ... the pastor who baptized and confirmed me graduated CSL in the 50’s (very much aware of the brewing problems) ... confirmed me in the ‘70’s ... retired sometime before Y2K ... this is up in years if not in glory.  I’m no longer a member of that congregation ... I have not seen his name listed as a forum member .. but since almost all the time there are more guests than forum members viewing forum posts, your guess is a good as mine."  --James

I'll try once more since you seem to have some difficulty in understanding:  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  That means now...your pastor now.  I assume you have one, right?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 09:05:25 PM
Pastor Bohler:
No, I have no problems with your memories of 1950's Iowa.  I just get a kick out of how it must have prepared you for the LBGQT agenda.  After all, your wife WAS a rainbow girl.

Me:
Cute, but off the mark.
Like millions of other Lutherans, I grew up in a very "normal," relatively conservative, politically quietist, congregation, led by pastors who were not conservative biblicists or fundamentalists, and who encouraged thought, study and interaction with others.
And like millions of other Lutherans here and around the world, I am most happy and blessed to be in a denomination such as the ELCA.
Go figure.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 15, 2020, 09:23:04 PM
Witty, Steve, but spouses are off-limits. Remember how I threatened to kick Dave Likeness' ... butt if he ever dissed my wife with a "dumb blonde" joke again?

BTW, he did apologize, so it's all good.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 15, 2020, 09:30:46 PM
"Let’s see ... the pastor who baptized and confirmed me graduated CSL in the 50’s (very much aware of the brewing problems) ... confirmed me in the ‘70’s ... retired sometime before Y2K ... this is up in years if not in glory.  I’m no longer a member of that congregation ... I have not seen his name listed as a forum member .. but since almost all the time there are more guests than forum members viewing forum posts, your guess is a good as mine."  --James

I'll try once more since you seem to have some difficulty in understanding:  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  That means now...your pastor now.  I assume you have one, right?
Let me see if I am understanding you J.L. Precup. Seems to me that you're implying that James's pastor doesn't know what he is writing here because if he did he'd stop James. And if he does you figure that you need to set his pastor straight on how he should pastor James.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J.L. Precup on September 15, 2020, 09:52:07 PM
"Let’s see ... the pastor who baptized and confirmed me graduated CSL in the 50’s (very much aware of the brewing problems) ... confirmed me in the ‘70’s ... retired sometime before Y2K ... this is up in years if not in glory.  I’m no longer a member of that congregation ... I have not seen his name listed as a forum member .. but since almost all the time there are more guests than forum members viewing forum posts, your guess is a good as mine."  --James

I'll try once more since you seem to have some difficulty in understanding:  Does your pastor know what you are writing here?  That means now...your pastor now.  I assume you have one, right?
Let me see if I am understanding you J.L. Precup. Seems to me that you're implying that James's pastor doesn't know what he is writing here because if he did he'd stop James. And if he does you figure that you need to set his pastor straight on how he should pastor James.

No, at this point I'd settle for a yes or no, and then let it go.  If he was your member, would you cheer him on in his name calling?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 10:14:05 PM
Witty, Steve, but spouses are off-limits. Remember how I threatened to kick Dave Likeness' ... butt if he ever dissed my wife with a "dumb blonde" joke again?

BTW, he did apologize, so it's all good.

You are right.  I let the joke get in the way.  So, I will apologize in a post directed to Rev. Austin.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 15, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
Pastor Bohler:
No, I have no problems with your memories of 1950's Iowa.  I just get a kick out of how it must have prepared you for the LBGQT agenda.  After all, your wife WAS a rainbow girl.

Me:
Cute, but off the mark.
Like millions of other Lutherans, I grew up in a very "normal," relatively conservative, politically quietist, congregation, led by pastors who were not conservative biblicists or fundamentalists, and who encouraged thought, study and interaction with others.
And like millions of other Lutherans here and around the world, I am most happy and blessed to be in a denomination such as the ELCA.
Go figure.

Rev. Austin,

As Rev. Kirchner rightly pointed out, I should not have involved your wife in my attempt at humor.  Please accept my apology for that, to you and your wife.  Just so you know, I like Iowa girls -- my wife was born there (Estherville, Iowa).
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 15, 2020, 10:21:46 PM
The only butt kicking that Don Kirchner has done in his lifetime........
He spilled an ashtray of burnt up cigarettes in his dormitory at the Seminary.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 15, 2020, 10:35:26 PM
Thanks, but I didn’t take it as an insult or offense to Beloved Spouse (who thinks you’re all nuts and wonders why I hang in here.)
My “off the mark” meant I thought your attempt at lightness missed the target.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 15, 2020, 11:37:50 PM
If he was your member, would you cheer him on in his name calling?
Well ... I’ve been accused in glittering generalities of name calling on a number of occasions ... but when requested to cite specific posts containing name calling ... simply crickets. 


Please cite specific posts (you know ... using the quote function ... or equivalent) where I have engaged in name calling.


If indeed there is documentable name calling identified, I can indeed speak with my pastor concerning whether it was justified. After all, our Lord who never sinned, on multiple occasions referred to those within the sound of his voice as vipers.  It would be rather pointless for you to speak to my pastor if there has been no creditable specific offense identified.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 16, 2020, 08:28:34 AM
My father was a procurement analyst for the Weapons Command at the Rock Island
Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois.  It is a Federal Military Installation.  Early in his
career, he was approached by some Masonic Lodge members in his department to
join the Masons.  They liked his moral character and were willing to pay the fees
to make him a 33rd degree Mason.

What "fees" might these be, Dave?

BTW, if you are referencing the Scottish Rite as opposed to the York "Christian" Rite (the route I took to Knight Templar), I think you meant 32nd degree Mason. The 33rd degree is somewhat honorary.

"In the United States, members of the Scottish Rite can be elected to receive the 33° by the Supreme Council. It is conferred on members who have made major contributions to society or to Masonry in general...The 33rd Degree is conferred on the odd years at the Annual Meeting."

Finally, Masonry, especially at that time, was a secret society. I seriously doubt that the "approach" took place in the manner you depict.

Maybe stick with working on your comedy routine?   ::)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 09:14:34 AM
Pastor Kirchner, with friends and relatives who were lifelong Masons,  I have never heard that the York rite was “Christian.”  I have heard, although I didn’t know anyone in that part of the lodge, that the Knights Templar parts of the lodge was  limited to Christians. But even if that part were Christians, it would be Christians of all denominations. Wouldn’t you have any unionism problem there?
Interesting. I shall research.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 16, 2020, 09:18:41 AM
Leave me alone, Charles. We are ordered not to interact hereon, so knock it off.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 09:32:08 AM
Ok.
To everyone here except Pastor Kirchner:
Does anyone know anything about York rite freemasonry? Is it Christian? As I understand it,  the Knights Templar degree is open only to Christians, but before that level a man would have to go through the other degrees of basic freemasonry. And the Knights Templar would be open to all Christians. Wouldn’t this to be a problem for someone concerned about unionism?
Remember. This question is for everyone but Pastor Kirchner, and is a follow-up of my reflection upstream.

P.S. As for “paying” for someone’s progress through the lodge, I could imagine that it could happen.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 16, 2020, 11:31:26 AM
Ok.
To everyone here except Pastor Kirchner:
Does anyone know anything about York rite freemasonry? Is it Christian? As I understand it,  the Knights Templar degree is open only to Christians, but before that level a man would have to go through the other degrees of basic freemasonry. And the Knights Templar would be open to all Christians. Wouldn’t this to be a problem for someone concerned about unionism?
Remember. This question is for everyone but Pastor Kirchner, and is a follow-up of my reflection upstream.

P.S. As for “paying” for someone’s progress through the lodge, I could imagine that it could happen.
I am no expert on Freemasonry and much of what I know I got from Wikipedia. Freemasonry is not a centrally organized and uniformly administered organization. Rather, from what I can gather, it is a rather loosely connected movement with considerable independence among the various branches and local groups. For example it may well be that movement upward among the various degrees is facilitated by or even requires the payment of money in some areas, perhaps less so in others.


In any case, within the umbrella of the York Rite (aka American Rite) one subgrouping is the Knights Templar. To participate and advance within the Knights Templar one must be Christian since part of the requirements is to sign a declaration to profess the "Doctrine of the Holy and Undivided Trinity." In Masonic mythology the Knights Templar descended from or was derived from the Crusading Knights Templar.


Would being a Christian in the Knights Templar alongside other Christians of other denominations be "unionism?" That would very much depend on what one considers Freemasonry to be. Is Freemasonry a nonreligious organization that recognizes the value that some members place on religion? Then unionism is not a consideration. [Note: here I am speaking in terms of what I understand the LCMS view of these things.] As LCMS Christians we can associate with and participate in nonreligious organization with people of any Christian, non-Christian, or no religion. Even if the organization recognizes the value of religion.


For example, at one time I was Rotarian for a number of years. As a pastor, I was frequently called upon to open meetings with a prayer or give the table prayer since we typically met for lunch. (LCMS are willing to pray with other Christians.) As I was giving the prayer and it was not a prayer to which I would have religious objections, there was no problem. While the Rotary Club encouraged and promoted good behavior, its "philosophy" did not delve into religious issues. So there was no unionism.


Freemasonry is officially (in as much there is official Masonic teachings) not only religious but promulgates several specific religious teachings. While the Knights Templar are specifically Trinitarian Christian, Freemasonry in general favors no religion over another and holds that worship of any supreme being is as good as any other. It teaches a form of what we would call works righteousness as key to entering a good afterlife and especially in its funerary rites being a good Mason is important. Thus it is at the least Syncretistic.


One does not simply enter the Knights Templar if one chooses when embarking on Freemasonry. One must first become a Mason in which these non-Christian (and I would say anti-Christian) teaching are held. Christian not not simply a style of religion that one prefers, much as one could prefer New England white clam chowder over Rhode Island clear or Manhattan red clam chowder. Or prefer rock music over country. Yet that is what Freemasonry teaches.


While if one considers Freemasonry as primarily a social and charitable organization with a few religious overtones then Christians of various denomination mixing together would not be unionism since they are primarily doing social and charitable stuff, not religious. Even so, a Christian in such a group should personally abstain from participating in any non-Christian prayers. However if it as, as it proclaims itself to be a religious organization with religious beliefs and teachings (even if it claims that however religious it is it is not a religion - logomancy) then concern over unionism would be overshadowed by a concern about syncretism.


While it is always dangerous to guess at other's motivations, I think that some of these concerns figured into Pr. Austin's decision to leave Masonry after DeMolay.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 12:56:05 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Freemasonry is not a centrally organized and uniformly administered organization.
Me:
Actually, it is - or at least used to be in its heyday - more highly organized and hierarchical than the Roman Catholic Church or the U.S. Military.

Pastor Fienen:
Rather, from what I can gather, it is a rather loosely connected movement with considerable independence among the various branches and local groups.
Me:
That's not the Masonry I knew in DeMolay and the Masons and Shriners of Iowa in the 1950s and 1960s.

Pastor Fienen:
In any case, within the umbrella of the York Rite (aka American Rite) one subgrouping is the Knights Templar. To participate and advance within the Knights Templar one must be Christian since part of the requirements is to sign a declaration to profess the "Doctrine of the Holy and Undivided Trinity." .... Would being a Christian in the Knights Templar alongside other Christians of other denominations be "unionism?" That would very much depend on what one considers Freemasonry to be. Is Freemasonry a nonreligious organization that recognizes the value that some members place on religion? Then unionism is not a consideration.
Me:
But Mason ritual requires prayers, acknowledgement of God and prayers that we are good enough to enter heaven.

Pastor Fienen:
For example, at one time I was Rotarian for a number of years. As a pastor, I was frequently called upon to open meetings with a prayer or give the table prayer since we typically met for lunch. (LCMS are willing to pray with other Christians.) As I was giving the prayer and it was not a prayer to which I would have religious objections, there was no problem. While the Rotary Club encouraged and promoted good behavior, its "philosophy" did not delve into religious issues. So there was no unionism.
Me:
Hooray for you and Rotary.

Pastor Fienen:
Freemasonry is officially (in as much there is official Masonic teachings) not only religious but promulgates several specific religious teachings.
Me:
In the "old days" of the 40s and 50s, Freemasonry had as much "specific religious teachings" as any church. Some of my Masonic friends contended that this "didn't really matter," to which, I said "then why have it? Why ask me to make vows in the name of an unknown God?"

Pastor Fienen:
... Freemasonry in general favors no religion over another and holds that worship of any supreme being is as good as any other. It teaches a form of what we would call works righteousness as key to entering a good afterlife and especially in its funerary rites being a good Mason is important. Thus it is at the least Syncretistic.
Me:
And Deistic and vague and avoiding any preference for salvation through Jesus Christ.

Pastor Fienen:
One does not simply enter the Knights Templar if one chooses when embarking on Freemasonry. One must first become a Mason in which these non-Christian (and I would say anti-Christian) teaching are held.
Me:
Yes.

Pastor Fienen:
While if one considers Freemasonry as primarily a social and charitable organization with a few religious overtones then Christians of various denomination mixing together would not be unionism since they are primarily doing social and charitable stuff, not religious. Even so, a Christian in such a group should personally abstain from participating in any non-Christian prayers.
Me:
Some joined for social and status reasons. But one would not be able to "abstain from participating in any non-Christian prayers." And you make your vows orally in chapter or lodge meetings.

Pastor Fienen:
However if it as, as it proclaims itself to be a religious organization with religious beliefs and teachings (even if it claims that however religious it is it is not a religion - logomancy) then concern over unionism would be overshadowed by a concern about syncretism.
Me:
Masonry tried to not proclaim itself as "religious." The LCMS, Roman Catholics and some of the rest of us didn't buy it.

Pastor Fienen:
While it is always dangerous to guess at other's motivations, I think that some of these concerns figured into Pr. Austin's decision to leave Masonry after DeMolay.
Me:
All of them did in various ways. I found the vows, rituals, concepts of God and "plan for getting into heaven," not to mention the often historically-skewed mythology, quite incompatible with what I understood as my Christian faith. (This conversation has reminded me that once I took one of my Presbyterian friends to my Lutheran church where he found the vestments, "ritual" and "liturgy" off-putting and, I think, to him a little silly. Yet this friend, a DeMolay brother, was scrupulous about chapter rituals, square corners when approaching the grand master, capes for the "precentors" and strict memorization of the "creeds" and "vows.")
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 16, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
Again .. Rev Fienen cites Wikipedia (without an easily located link ... ok) but the response is totally devoid of verifiable sources.   Why is that so difficult?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 16, 2020, 02:10:10 PM
Pr. Austin, I may well have misunderstood how Freemasonry is organized, there seemed to me to be a great deal of regional and national variations. As I said, I'm no expert. As to the nature of Freemasonry, I think you and I are in basic agreement, may differ on a few details. If anything, I was perhaps too lenient in my assessment.


The question had been asked whether Christians of various denominations practicing Knights Templar Masonry (which is supposed to be a Christian Masonic Order) together could be considered unionism. As you have confirmed that it is even more of a religious rather than secular organization than I suggested and should be considered at least a quasireligion, my answer to that question would be that the question of unionism pales in comparison to the question of syncretism.


Thank you for confirming and expanding my understanding of the nature Freemasonry.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 02:29:01 PM
You can trust me, James. I’m telling you the truth of what I have learned and experienced over the years. I’m your primary source.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 02:39:19 PM
LCMS publications on freemasonry going back to the 40s and 50s were very clear.
I can’t understand how a member of the LCMS, let alone a  Pastor, could join the lodge.
I don’t know how large, active, or widespread freemasonry is today, or if anybody cares about it. But  back in those days, it was a force socially and politically. A Number of the founders, notably George Washington, were Masons.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 16, 2020, 02:49:24 PM
For example, at one time I was Rotarian for a number of years. As a pastor, I was frequently called upon to open meetings with a prayer or give the table prayer since we typically met for lunch. (LCMS are willing to pray with other Christians.) As I was giving the prayer and it was not a prayer to which I would have religious objections, there was no problem. While the Rotary Club encouraged and promoted good behavior, its "philosophy" did not delve into religious issues. So there was no unionism.


Whether it was true, I don't know. I wasn't there; but the story was told when I served in Kansas that when the District President of Kansas (at that time) was to receive an honorary degree at the ELCA's Bethany College in Lindsborg, it was deemed not a (union) worship service if they didn't wear liturgical robes or light candles - and thus he could participate.


Actually, when I was on a synod worship committee, one of our key areas of discussion was: What makes an event a worship service? What are the elements that should be necessary for something to be called "Christian worship"?


We determined some essentials: Invoking the Triune God, scripture readings, prayers.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 16, 2020, 03:43:09 PM
You can trust me, James. I’m telling you the truth of what I have learned and experienced over the years. I’m your primary source.

Rev Austin: Your refusal to unconditionally admit to clearly documented errors


My mistake, partly. Biden has been in Wisconsin. I believe Harris was there yesterday.

does little to bolster your trust me claim. Your entitlement claim “what I have learned and experienced over the years” rings rather hollow as well.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 16, 2020, 03:48:32 PM
@Charles Austin:

In your professional career how many years were spent as a full-time pastor
of a Lutheran parish?   How many years were spent as free-lance journalist?

Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 05:59:36 PM
I was a fulltime parish pastor for 22 years and a half-time pastor for 3 years.
And I spent 17 years on staffs of newspapers and news services.
Since college, I have written freelance articles for a variety of newspapers, magazines, and news services.
For 11 years, I was on the staff of the Lutheran Council in the USA, the Lutheran World Federation in Geneva, Switzerland, and the Lutheran Church in America, as director of news the three years prior to the ELCA merger.
Anytime I was in staff or secular work, I was attached to a parish as an "affiliated" pastor, meaning that I preached, celebrated, taught, served on committees and provided pastoral care as needed in that parish. In retirement, my pastorates were as an interim, either in a troubled parish or a parish where a long-term pastor had retired or died.
Many people in this small forum know this already.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Michael Slusser on September 16, 2020, 06:40:31 PM
I was a fulltime parish pastor for 22 years and a half-time pastor for 3 years.
And I spent 17 years on staffs of newspapers and news services.
Since college, I have written freelance articles for a variety of newspapers, magazines, and news services.
For 11 years, I was on the staff of the Lutheran Council in the USA, the Lutheran World Federation in Geneva, Switzerland, and the Lutheran Church in America, as director of news the three years prior to the ELCA merger.
Anytime I was in staff or secular work, I was attached to a parish as an "affiliated" pastor, meaning that I preached, celebrated, taught, served on committees and provided pastoral care as needed in that parish. In retirement, my pastorates were as an interim, either in a troubled parish or a parish where a long-term pastor had retired or died.
Many people in this small forum know this already.
Some people have recently arrived or may simply be following their prejudices.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: B Hughes on September 16, 2020, 06:54:44 PM
I was a fulltime parish pastor for 22 years and a half-time pastor for 3 years.
And I spent 17 years on staffs of newspapers and news services.
Since college, I have written freelance articles for a variety of newspapers, magazines, and news services.
For 11 years, I was on the staff of the Lutheran Council in the USA, the Lutheran World Federation in Geneva, Switzerland, and the Lutheran Church in America, as director of news the three years prior to the ELCA merger.
Anytime I was in staff or secular work, I was attached to a parish as an "affiliated" pastor, meaning that I preached, celebrated, taught, served on committees and provided pastoral care as needed in that parish. In retirement, my pastorates were as an interim, either in a troubled parish or a parish where a long-term pastor had retired or died.
Many people in this small forum know this already.
Some people have recently arrived or may simply be following their prejudices.

Peace,
Michael

Some people have been around for years and simply wonder about decades of bullying.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 16, 2020, 07:07:35 PM
I was a fulltime parish pastor for 22 years and a half-time pastor for 3 years.
And I spent 17 years on staffs of newspapers and news services.
Since college, I have written freelance articles for a variety of newspapers, magazines, and news services.
For 11 years, I was on the staff of the Lutheran Council in the USA, the Lutheran World Federation in Geneva, Switzerland, and the Lutheran Church in America, as director of news the three years prior to the ELCA merger.
Anytime I was in staff or secular work, I was attached to a parish as an "affiliated" pastor, meaning that I preached, celebrated, taught, served on committees and provided pastoral care as needed in that parish. In retirement, my pastorates were as an interim, either in a troubled parish or a parish where a long-term pastor had retired or died.
Many people in this small forum know this already.
Some people have recently arrived or may simply be following their prejudices.

Peace,
Michael
Prejudices ??  Preconceived opinions are are impossible to have in this case ... with the voluminous body of postings, opinions are easily arrived at based on the extensive body of his postings.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 16, 2020, 07:19:02 PM
Leave me alone, Charles. We are ordered not to interact hereon, so knock it off.

OK, so I will ask: knowing the LCMS position on lodges, am I correct in assuming that you had renounced your membership in the Masons before you joined an LCMS congregation?  Certainly the seminary would not have admitted you as an MDiv student unless you had already done so, right?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 16, 2020, 09:13:59 PM

But Mason ritual requires prayers, acknowledgement of God and prayers that we are good enough to enter heaven.



Aye, there's the rub.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 16, 2020, 09:18:31 PM
I was very happy to see, when I accepted my first (and only) call to what was then an ALC congregation, that the congregation's constitution specifically stated that the pastor should not participate in any ceremonies of--I forget the verbiage, but it clearly meant Masonic organizations. When we had to make amendments to bring us into conformity with the new ELCA model constitution, I made sure that the anti-Masonic paragraph remained untouched.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 16, 2020, 09:29:44 PM
On two occasions early in my ministry, the Masons wanted to bring their rites into the church at a funeral for a lodge member. I asked a colleague and followed his suggestion. The Masons were told their rites could follow after I finished the church service at the gravesite.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 16, 2020, 10:03:26 PM
I was very happy to see, when I accepted my first (and only) call to what was then an ALC congregation, that the congregation's constitution specifically stated that the pastor should not participate in any ceremonies of--I forget the verbiage, but it clearly meant Masonic organizations. When we had to make amendments to bring us into conformity with the new ELCA model constitution, I made sure that the anti-Masonic paragraph remained untouched.

Given the context, that it's in the congregation's constitution, I"m not following. Why would any Masonic lodge even contemplate a pastor participating in a Masonic ceremony? Why would they even allow him into any ceremony if not a Mason?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 16, 2020, 10:38:44 PM
I was very happy to see, when I accepted my first (and only) call to what was then an ALC congregation, that the congregation's constitution specifically stated that the pastor should not participate in any ceremonies of--I forget the verbiage, but it clearly meant Masonic organizations. When we had to make amendments to bring us into conformity with the new ELCA model constitution, I made sure that the anti-Masonic paragraph remained untouched.

Given the context, that it's in the congregation's constitution, I"m not following. Why would any Masonic lodge even contemplate a pastor participating in a Masonic ceremony? Why would they even allow him into any ceremony if not a Mason?


In some denominations, the pastors can be members of the Masons and the Mason's funeral rites occur in the church. Not with Lutherans. Not all Masons may recognize the great differences among denominations.


Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 16, 2020, 10:44:28 PM
I was very happy to see, when I accepted my first (and only) call to what was then an ALC congregation, that the congregation's constitution specifically stated that the pastor should not participate in any ceremonies of--I forget the verbiage, but it clearly meant Masonic organizations. When we had to make amendments to bring us into conformity with the new ELCA model constitution, I made sure that the anti-Masonic paragraph remained untouched.


As I recall the ALC constitution, it did not prohibit members from Lodge membership, but it prohibited the pastor from participating in lodge rituals; and, I believe, the use of church facilities for Lodge rites.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 16, 2020, 10:49:45 PM
Oh, thanks for the explanation. Up where I was, there wouldn't be any Masonic rites in which a pastor would participate as a pastor, which is the context here. As for any Masonic funeral ritual, they would have been fine with something after the commitment.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on September 17, 2020, 01:01:38 AM
On two occasions early in my ministry, the Masons wanted to bring their rites into the church at a funeral for a lodge member. I asked a colleague and followed his suggestion. The Masons were told their rites could follow after I finished the church service at the gravesite.

I never had to face that issue.

But if I had, I would have insisted on the Christian words being the final words; a position that I always held with Veterans' ceremonies...and as the number of Veteran burials  countywide increased and the ranks of the Honor Guard decreased, they were relieved to be able to "go first".

Full disclosure:  My lineal Great-Grandfather was a 32nd Degree Mason.  I was invited to join the Lodge on several occasions but always declined.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 17, 2020, 08:23:04 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 17, 2020, 08:44:10 AM
Leave me alone, Charles. We are ordered not to interact hereon, so knock it off.

OK, so I will ask: knowing the LCMS position on lodges, am I correct in assuming that you had renounced your membership in the Masons before you joined an LCMS congregation?  Certainly the seminary would not have admitted you as an MDiv student unless you had already done so, right?

That is correct. I went through the York Rite and Knight Templar in my young adult years, beginning to practice law in a new, relatively small city of about 12,000. I got to know and respected some guys who were Masons and asked to join. No one ever approached me, and I never saw anyone being asked to join. That wasn't the way it worked. One of the district court judges was a Mason, but he never treated me differently from any other lawyers or showed me any favoritism in court or in his rulings. We were involved in community projects, I made some good friends, and I guess I enjoyed the dramatic aspects of meetings and degree work. But yes, there was a real focus on works righteousness. Looking back on it now, it is similar to and reminds me of the teachings of the Methodist Church.

At the time, I was a member of a large ELCA church in town. At one point, the female associate pastor ran off to California with the female church secretary by taking a call there. Some members were quite shocked and asked about it. The senior pastor told the members it was none of their business. We left shortly thereafter.

I had begun to miss my LCMS upbringing and also the fact that, when visiting my parents at our "home" church where I was confirmed, I would not commune. Young and taken with myself, winning every jury trial I had, I went up to the rail and communed. How could they deny me?! Pastor communed me. It was my wife, raised ALC, who was incensed with me, lecturing me that I knew full well that the LCMS practiced closed communion. It was she who brought me to repentance. I went back to my parents' pastor and apologized. He of course forgave me, and we began to engage in some theological discussion. He gave me some materials to read, and that was the beginning of my journey.

Thereafter, I demitted from the Lodge. I discussed my decision with a couple of Lodge members whom I greatly respected. No one tried to dissuade me. They didn't quite understand my reasons for leaving, but no one pressured me to remain. It doesn't work that way.

We joined Zion Lutheran, an LCMS congregation. I loved their pastor, and between him and my parents' pastor, with whom I kept in communication, I continued down the road to entering the pastoral ministry, closing my law practice and entering Sem St Louis.

I remember reading Walther's letter on The Lodge question which, given my background, interested me. It is included in this article on the history of The Lodge in the LCMS.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/ConstableLodgePracticeInMoSynod.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjC-trw7-7rAhVQI6wKHXITC1wQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3egad2trf-3lZXnkc__U9k

I suspect that my parents' pastor had read Walther's letter as well, given his pastoral care to me.  ;)

Someone wrote to me privately, stating:

“I can’t think of a greater amount of bull crap and nonsense than anything having to do with the Masonic Lodge, in any of its various idiotic manifestations.”

I can, within the church at large and even at times on this forum. So, save the outrage when you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Thank you for making that clear.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: B Hughes on September 17, 2020, 09:00:45 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.


What do you think of this movement? We ended catechism and shifted to a whole household approach to discipleship. Our congregation provided videos for the Faith 5 training.

https://store.faithink.com/products/lets-kill-sunday-school-before-it-kills-the-church-volume-1-by-dr-rich-melheim-and-friends (https://store.faithink.com/products/lets-kill-sunday-school-before-it-kills-the-church-volume-1-by-dr-rich-melheim-and-friends)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Charles Austin on September 17, 2020, 09:05:38 AM
It seems then that the Freemasonry issue is amicably settled, an issue wherein I am in agreement with the LCMS.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: B Hughes on September 17, 2020, 10:00:02 AM
It seems then that the Freemasonry issue is amicably settled, an issue wherein I am in agreement with the LCMS.

Free Masonry is like the Moose and Elks clubs for anyone under 50: a non issue because no one cares about it.

 
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 17, 2020, 10:04:53 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
While they may not be professionally produced, shouldn’t catechism training be a time to establish a relationship with a pastor/local congregation?  If so, then catechism videos if necessary should feature the local pastor teaching the class ... rather than hiring the job out to some professional video production studio.

Our pastor just began the fall pastor’s class via zoom ... recorded if review is needed or a class is missed. In years past, I attended in person pastor’s classes. In addition to catechetical review, it was a great opportunity to get to know the new members.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 17, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.


What do you think of this movement? We ended catechism and shifted to a whole household approach to discipleship. Our congregation provided videos for the Faith 5 training.

https://store.faithink.com/products/lets-kill-sunday-school-before-it-kills-the-church-volume-1-by-dr-rich-melheim-and-friends (https://store.faithink.com/products/lets-kill-sunday-school-before-it-kills-the-church-volume-1-by-dr-rich-melheim-and-friends)

Thanks for your question, Brian. Early in my days at Concordia Publishing House I was among those involved in a review of FaithInc.

The curriculum addresses some important needs in the church. Melheim's approach is intergenerational and that has had a significant impact on church practices in recent years.

At Emmanuel, parents or grandparents attend our youth catechism classes. We have a meal together and then I walk the kids and adults through their highs and lows (sharing my experiences, too) which is a Melheim practice. Then we go into the catechism lesson itself. The sharing time is very helpful for learning about the Law and Gospel needs in the people's lives.

What the curriculum reviewers found missing in FaithInc. was substantive content. But that can be supplemented by users at the home church. So, some very good process but missing content.

The trouble now is that Covid is keeping us apart from one another. So new methods are needed. I'm exploring distance learning not because I want to but because it looks like the best way to keep things going in spiritual care.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 17, 2020, 04:52:39 PM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
While they may not be professionally produced, shouldn’t catechism training be a time to establish a relationship with a pastor/local congregation?  If so, then catechism videos if necessary should feature the local pastor teaching the class ... rather than hiring the job out to some professional video production studio.

Our pastor just began the fall pastor’s class via zoom ... recorded if review is needed or a class is missed. In years past, I attended in person pastor’s classes. In addition to catechetical review, it was a great opportunity to get to know the new members.

Thanks for your note, James. I'm not sure I fully understand the comment. The videos I'm sharing are not professionally produced as should be readily noticed. I agree that catechesis is a time for building bonds with pastor and congregation. Unfortunately, Covid is keeping people apart. That's why I'm exploring distance learning. Like your pastor, I will probably have a zoom call with students when we review the answers they give in their workbooks. That will also allow us time to share highs and lows and pray together. Putting some of the instruction in video format seemed like a good way to quickly communicate content. It also has the advantage of letting the learners explore the content at their pace.

I imagine this will all go away in a year and we can return to face to face discipleship and study.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 17, 2020, 06:44:46 PM
I was very happy to see, when I accepted my first (and only) call to what was then an ALC congregation, that the congregation's constitution specifically stated that the pastor should not participate in any ceremonies of--I forget the verbiage, but it clearly meant Masonic organizations. When we had to make amendments to bring us into conformity with the new ELCA model constitution, I made sure that the anti-Masonic paragraph remained untouched.

Given the context, that it's in the congregation's constitution, I"m not following. Why would any Masonic lodge even contemplate a pastor participating in a Masonic ceremony? Why would they even allow him into any ceremony if not a Mason?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The point was that the language of the constitution made it clear both that there were to be no Masonic ceremonies in the church, and that the pastor was not to "participate" (i.e., be present at) any Masonic ceremony. It anticipated that the Masons might request to do their thing before or after the funeral service at the church or at a funeral chapel and/or at the gravesite. The constitution made clear that the Masonic ceremony was not to take place in the church, before, during or after the funeral; and that the pastor was not to be present if there was going to be any involvement by the Masons anywhere along the line--not just in the church, but at a funeral home or cemetery.

Oh, and most Masons I know hadn't actually read the congregation's constitution . . .   ;)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 17, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
OK, gotcha. Thanks.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 18, 2020, 01:02:41 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
While they may not be professionally produced, shouldn’t catechism training be a time to establish a relationship with a pastor/local congregation?  If so, then catechism videos if necessary should feature the local pastor teaching the class ... rather than hiring the job out to some professional video production studio.

Our pastor just began the fall pastor’s class via zoom ... recorded if review is needed or a class is missed. In years past, I attended in person pastor’s classes. In addition to catechetical review, it was a great opportunity to get to know the new members.

Thanks for your note, James. I'm not sure I fully understand the comment. The videos I'm sharing are not professionally produced as should be readily noticed. I agree that catechesis is a time for building bonds with pastor and congregation. Unfortunately, Covid is keeping people apart. That's why I'm exploring distance learning. Like your pastor, I will probably have a zoom call with students when we review the answers they give in their workbooks. That will also allow us time to share highs and lows and pray together. Putting some of the instruction in video format seemed like a good way to quickly communicate content. It also has the advantage of letting the learners explore the content at their pace.

I imagine this will all go away in a year and we can return to face to face discipleship and study.
Rev E: Reviewing my response, perhaps I my response for some reason was more to these comments in your initial post to this thread when you posted

“  I have been exploring available videos on YouTube and found some good content. However, much of it seems oriented to older users. Does anyone know whether a congregation has created video content for Exploring Luther's Small Catechism: A Workbook for Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation, prepared by Robert C. Sauer, edited by Rodney L. Rathmann?”

Your request for video material on the Robert Sauer was misinterpreted as the desire for a turn key solution rather than video material to augment your personally created videos. 

I have a friend with a dual parish in the rural America heartland ... actually having members who do not have reliable internet available ... and live miles from the church. He has to distribute his catechetical videos via thumb drive.  It’s rather difficult to think of the possibility of a confirm and being confirmed with minimal face to face contact with the pastor.

May God bless you as you minister and catechize during these difficult times.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on September 18, 2020, 10:17:33 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
While they may not be professionally produced, shouldn’t catechism training be a time to establish a relationship with a pastor/local congregation?  If so, then catechism videos if necessary should feature the local pastor teaching the class ... rather than hiring the job out to some professional video production studio.

Our pastor just began the fall pastor’s class via zoom ... recorded if review is needed or a class is missed. In years past, I attended in person pastor’s classes. In addition to catechetical review, it was a great opportunity to get to know the new members.

Thanks for your note, James. I'm not sure I fully understand the comment. The videos I'm sharing are not professionally produced as should be readily noticed. I agree that catechesis is a time for building bonds with pastor and congregation. Unfortunately, Covid is keeping people apart. That's why I'm exploring distance learning. Like your pastor, I will probably have a zoom call with students when we review the answers they give in their workbooks. That will also allow us time to share highs and lows and pray together. Putting some of the instruction in video format seemed like a good way to quickly communicate content. It also has the advantage of letting the learners explore the content at their pace.

I imagine this will all go away in a year and we can return to face to face discipleship and study.
Rev E: Reviewing my response, perhaps I my response for some reason was more to these comments in your initial post to this thread when you posted

“  I have been exploring available videos on YouTube and found some good content. However, much of it seems oriented to older users. Does anyone know whether a congregation has created video content for Exploring Luther's Small Catechism: A Workbook for Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation, prepared by Robert C. Sauer, edited by Rodney L. Rathmann?”

Your request for video material on the Robert Sauer was misinterpreted as the desire for a turn key solution rather than video material to augment your personally created videos. 

I have a friend with a dual parish in the rural America heartland ... actually having members who do not have reliable internet available ... and live miles from the church. He has to distribute his catechetical videos via thumb drive.  It’s rather difficult to think of the possibility of a confirm and being confirmed with minimal face to face contact with the pastor.

May God bless you as you minister and catechize during these difficult times.

The internet reliability issues are another reason I prefer to share content via YouTube, which stays available and can easily be reloaded if there is a disruption. Live streaming and conferencing are always subject to disruptions and require scheduling. So I prefer to depend less on Zoom.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 18, 2020, 10:47:19 AM
Did our first confirmation class via Zoom on Wednesday afternoon. Worked well!
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 18, 2020, 10:53:13 AM
After numerous searches, I have not found YouTube catechism resources that I could adopt for working with youth. Everything seems aimed at adults. So I've started to build a channel for my second year catechism students. There are two lessons on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, some memory work aids, and a basic video on how to find things in the Bible, catechism explanation, and our hymnal.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)

If anyone comes across such resources specifically designed for youth, please let me know.

I am also considering an adult Bible Study adaptation of the lessons that would add Bible readings and accompanying Q & A.
While they may not be professionally produced, shouldn’t catechism training be a time to establish a relationship with a pastor/local congregation?  If so, then catechism videos if necessary should feature the local pastor teaching the class ... rather than hiring the job out to some professional video production studio.

Our pastor just began the fall pastor’s class via zoom ... recorded if review is needed or a class is missed. In years past, I attended in person pastor’s classes. In addition to catechetical review, it was a great opportunity to get to know the new members.

Thanks for your note, James. I'm not sure I fully understand the comment. The videos I'm sharing are not professionally produced as should be readily noticed. I agree that catechesis is a time for building bonds with pastor and congregation. Unfortunately, Covid is keeping people apart. That's why I'm exploring distance learning. Like your pastor, I will probably have a zoom call with students when we review the answers they give in their workbooks. That will also allow us time to share highs and lows and pray together. Putting some of the instruction in video format seemed like a good way to quickly communicate content. It also has the advantage of letting the learners explore the content at their pace.

I imagine this will all go away in a year and we can return to face to face discipleship and study.
Rev E: Reviewing my response, perhaps I my response for some reason was more to these comments in your initial post to this thread when you posted

“  I have been exploring available videos on YouTube and found some good content. However, much of it seems oriented to older users. Does anyone know whether a congregation has created video content for Exploring Luther's Small Catechism: A Workbook for Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation, prepared by Robert C. Sauer, edited by Rodney L. Rathmann?”

Your request for video material on the Robert Sauer was misinterpreted as the desire for a turn key solution rather than video material to augment your personally created videos. 

I have a friend with a dual parish in the rural America heartland ... actually having members who do not have reliable internet available ... and live miles from the church. He has to distribute his catechetical videos via thumb drive.  It’s rather difficult to think of the possibility of a confirm and being confirmed with minimal face to face contact with the pastor.

May God bless you as you minister and catechize during these difficult times.

The internet reliability issues are another reason I prefer to share content via YouTube, which stays available and can easily be reloaded if there is a disruption. Live streaming and conferencing are always subject to disruptions and require scheduling. So I prefer to depend less on Zoom.

Discussions here and elsewhere about Internet reliability has given me a greater thankfulness for the reliability of our Internet. When the pandemic first hit, much was shared in various threads by pastors who had less than ideal Internet service… I’m thankful for their perseverance to get God’smessage out to His people.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: James J Eivan on September 20, 2020, 12:43:07 AM
Rev E:  Reviewing your thread concerning your YouTube Bible Study (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5c5e37140609f775f3276b92a1bc2ddb&?PHPSESSID=5c5e37140609f775f3276b92a1bc2ddb&topic=7582.msg486715#msg486715), have you considered a hybrid approach ... the presentation or teaching aspects of the class on YouTube as you currently are doing ... augmented with some interaction using a zoom type two way interface for discussion/fellowship/ catching up. 

While zoom like environments with both audio/visual is preferred, if there are technical issues, utilizing the phone as audio minimizes the audio dropouts while providing a bit more community environment than using YouTube alone.

Recently our pastor had to miss a Bible Student at the last minute ... he prepared a YouTube presentation.  For most it was viewed via shared zoom screen ... sound quality was noticeably better than a live zoom presentation... yet the YouTube version was available for those experiencing challenging internet issues.

Naturally in person is the goal ... but having contingencies is not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 13, 2020, 08:24:43 AM
For anyone who would like a break from the political discussion, below are links to some practical resources for catechism. I'm continuing to prepare catechism songs for my congregation, which others may find practical for supporting memory work and learning. The songs are word-for-word from Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation.

Sanctification Song, Third Article of the Creed
https://youtu.be/s7ofxJ3TqR0

Apostles' Creed, strummed version (more upbeat)
https://youtu.be/KX3yIKncMQs

I am currently working on songs for Luther's explanations of the petitions of the Lord's Prayer but have some starts on the Commandments and Second Article.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 13, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
For anyone who would like a break from the political discussion, below are links to some practical resources for catechism. I'm continuing to prepare catechism songs for my congregation, which others may find practical for supporting memory work and learning. The songs are word-for-word from Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation.

Sanctification Song, Third Article of the Creed
https://youtu.be/s7ofxJ3TqR0 (https://youtu.be/s7ofxJ3TqR0)

Apostles' Creed, strummed version (more upbeat)
https://youtu.be/KX3yIKncMQs (https://youtu.be/KX3yIKncMQs)

I am currently working on songs for Luther's explanations of the petitions of the Lord's Prayer but have some starts on the Commandments and Second Article.


John Ylvisaker and John Schultz wrote songs for each of the parts of the catechism: The Singing Catechism, copyright 1971 Augsburg Publishing House.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 13, 2020, 06:57:47 PM
Does anyone know if this is an example from the Ylvisaker book?

https://youtu.be/Dodx1dcLrz4
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 13, 2020, 07:35:51 PM
Does anyone know if this is an example from the Ylvisaker book?

https://youtu.be/Dodx1dcLrz4 (https://youtu.be/Dodx1dcLrz4)


No, not from his catechism book. It's part of an Afrikan Spiritual Mass that's in his Borning Cry Songbook. It's based on a South African protest song: "We Shall Not Give Up the Fight."
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 13, 2020, 08:10:42 PM
Does anyone know if this is an example from the Ylvisaker book?

https://youtu.be/Dodx1dcLrz4 (https://youtu.be/Dodx1dcLrz4)


No, not from his catechism book. It's part of an Afrikan Spiritual Mass that's in his Borning Cry Songbook. It's based on a South African protest song: "We Shall Not Give Up the Fight."

Thanks. I couldn't find anything else that might be catechetical.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 13, 2020, 10:57:14 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Singing-Catechism-A-Musical-Translation-Of-Luthers-Catechism-By-John-Schultz/324062015823?hash=item4b7399f14f:g:3WIAAOSwqwxeN5kU

My old copy cost $0.85 when I bought it new.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Steven W Bohler on October 13, 2020, 11:03:05 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Singing-Catechism-A-Musical-Translation-Of-Luthers-Catechism-By-John-Schultz/324062015823?hash=item4b7399f14f:g:3WIAAOSwqwxeN5kU

My old copy cost $0.85 when I bought it new.

These is also this: https://www.cph.org/p-3422-sing-the-faith-cd.aspx
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 14, 2020, 06:33:31 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Singing-Catechism-A-Musical-Translation-Of-Luthers-Catechism-By-John-Schultz/324062015823?hash=item4b7399f14f:g:3WIAAOSwqwxeN5kU

My old copy cost $0.85 when I bought it new.

These is also this: https://www.cph.org/p-3422-sing-the-faith-cd.aspx

It's interesting to hear the different styles and approaches. Sing the Faith seems to be prepared for elementary children and has a more traditional, even classical sound.

The faith inc. songs appear to be for an older audience and have a contemporary worship style. What I've heard seems more thematic than word for word from a catechism but perhaps someone more familiar with the program can fill us in.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: John_Hannah on October 14, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Singing-Catechism-A-Musical-Translation-Of-Luthers-Catechism-By-John-Schultz/324062015823?hash=item4b7399f14f:g:3WIAAOSwqwxeN5kU

My old copy cost $0.85 when I bought it new.

These is also this: https://www.cph.org/p-3422-sing-the-faith-cd.aspx

It's interesting to hear the different styles and approaches. Sing the Faith seems to be prepared for elementary children and has a more traditional, even classical sound.

The faith inc. songs appear to be for an older audience and have a contemporary worship style. What I've heard seems more thematic than word for word from a catechism but perhaps someone more familiar with the program can fill us in.

That there are so many just musical versions of the Small Catechism over generations speaks to the genius of Luther in producing it. 500 years old and going strong!!!

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 14, 2020, 01:36:22 PM
Separate from Singing Catechism, Ylvisaker also recorded a rap version of the Ten Commandments, the words are below.


The Rapt Commandments
text: John Ylvisaker; tune: American Blues

1          Now God gave a law to the Israelites,
                        commands that would help in their journey thru the night.
            We have a world that could use the same advice,
                        that God gave Moses and the Israelites.
            The first is a rule that we soon forgot,
                        that God is a God -- not a planet or a rock.
            We have a God that created with a thought,
                        and that is something that we soon forgot.

refrain (call and response style):
            You should fear and love God.
                        We don't know how to do it!
            You should fear and love God.
                        We never had a clue!
            You should fear and love God.
                        There's really nuthin' to it!
            You should fear and love God.
                        In ev'rything we do!

2          So law number two is about your tongue,
                        the law has to do with the True and Holy One.
            The name of God is as awesome as the Sun,
                        and that's why this is all about your tongue.
            The third is a law that you could obey;
                        just show your respect for a high and holy day.
            It's only nat'ral to try another way,
                        but life gets heavy when we disobey.  refrain

3          The next is a law with a promise there,
                        a long happy life if we honor those who care.
            It doesn't mean that it's easy or it's fair,
                        but God has given us a promise there.
            To kill is a crime and we know it's true;
                        to kill is a crime of the highest magnitude.
            But Jesus said that our hatred can accrue;
                        it's just as deadly and we know it's true. refrain

4          Now, law number six causes great debate;
                        the Lord made us all with a need to propagate.
            But if we do we should do it with our mate,
                        the world gets weary of this great debate.
            The next has to do with an itchy hand;
                        a sign that we've got lots of trouble in the land.
            So do your best and obey the Lord's command,
                        and work like crazy with those itchy hands. refrain

5          I know there's a need for an alibi,
                        but how do you feel when you hear a person lie?
            You know it's hard just to look 'em in the eye,
                        so use the truth and not an alibi.
            We've come to the end of this decalogue;
                        there's one extra thing -- well, it's just a minor flaw.
            Be satisfied, be content with what you've got,
                        and keep on rappin' on the decalogue.  refrain

Used by permission. © 1991 John Ylvisaker, Box 321, Waverly, Iowa 50677
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 14, 2020, 06:33:39 PM
Separate from Singing Catechism, Ylvisaker also recorded a rap version of the Ten Commandments, the words are below.


The Rapt Commandments
text: John Ylvisaker; tune: American Blues

1          Now God gave a law to the Israelites,
                        commands that would help in their journey thru the night.
            We have a world that could use the same advice,
                        that God gave Moses and the Israelites.
            The first is a rule that we soon forgot,
                        that God is a God -- not a planet or a rock.
            We have a God that created with a thought,
                        and that is something that we soon forgot.

refrain (call and response style):
            You should fear and love God.
                        We don't know how to do it!
            You should fear and love God.
                        We never had a clue!
            You should fear and love God.
                        There's really nuthin' to it!
            You should fear and love God.
                        In ev'rything we do!

2          So law number two is about your tongue,
                        the law has to do with the True and Holy One.
            The name of God is as awesome as the Sun,
                        and that's why this is all about your tongue.
            The third is a law that you could obey;
                        just show your respect for a high and holy day.
            It's only nat'ral to try another way,
                        but life gets heavy when we disobey.  refrain

3          The next is a law with a promise there,
                        a long happy life if we honor those who care.
            It doesn't mean that it's easy or it's fair,
                        but God has given us a promise there.
            To kill is a crime and we know it's true;
                        to kill is a crime of the highest magnitude.
            But Jesus said that our hatred can accrue;
                        it's just as deadly and we know it's true. refrain

4          Now, law number six causes great debate;
                        the Lord made us all with a need to propagate.
            But if we do we should do it with our mate,
                        the world gets weary of this great debate.
            The next has to do with an itchy hand;
                        a sign that we've got lots of trouble in the land.
            So do your best and obey the Lord's command,
                        and work like crazy with those itchy hands. refrain

5          I know there's a need for an alibi,
                        but how do you feel when you hear a person lie?
            You know it's hard just to look 'em in the eye,
                        so use the truth and not an alibi.
            We've come to the end of this decalogue;
                        there's one extra thing -- well, it's just a minor flaw.
            Be satisfied, be content with what you've got,
                        and keep on rappin' on the decalogue.  refrain

Used by permission. © 1991 John Ylvisaker, Box 321, Waverly, Iowa 50677

Thanks. Helpful to show Ylvisaker's range and approach.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 15, 2020, 01:58:12 AM
Thanks. Helpful to show Ylvisaker's range and approach.


I'm working on the 13 songs in Singing Catechism to get them in an electronic form that can sent electronically.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 15, 2020, 04:30:42 PM
Thanks. Helpful to show Ylvisaker's range and approach.


I'm working on the 13 songs in Singing Catechism to get them in an electronic form that can sent electronically.


The Singing Catechism (probably with some mistakes) as a pdf file.


The Decalogue
The Lord, Your God
Love God, Love Your Neighbor

The Apostles' Creed
God Made Me - 1st Article
True God, True Man 2nd Article
The Spirit-Life - 3rd Article

The Lord's Prayer
Holy Life - Introduction & 1st Petition
His Kingdom, His Will - 2nd & 3rd Petitions
Give and Forgive - 4th & 5th Petitions
King of Love - 6th & 7th Petitions

The Sacrament of Baptism
His Mercy Flows

The Sacrament of Holy Communion
Bread and Wine
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 15, 2020, 08:30:01 PM
Looks like Ylvisaker takes a thematic rather than a word-for-word approach.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 15, 2020, 10:50:37 PM
Looks like Ylvisaker takes a thematic rather than a word-for-word approach.


He didn't write the lyrics. They were by John Schultz. (I don't know who he is.) Yes, he expresses the ideas of the catechism - and pretty well, in my opinion. A problem with a word-for-word approach is which English translation should one use. There has been three or four over my 40+ years of ministry.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 23, 2020, 09:59:55 AM
I have completed five video-based lessons on the Third Article of the Apostles' Creed and Luther's explanation. They are now organized into a playlist, including a word-for-word memory work song. Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm2Aj8l7nI8SRjg_802K1JxJxHIlCf850 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm2Aj8l7nI8SRjg_802K1JxJxHIlCf850)

I have also uploaded a memory work song for Luther's explanation to the Second Article of the Creed, which is linked below.

https://youtu.be/UlrDfF4zNz8 (https://youtu.be/UlrDfF4zNz8)

Had my first lesson with students. Everything went smooth as glass, thanks be to God. After the students watched the video and completed the workbook lesson, here is the outline we used over Zoom:

Highs and Lows, to learn how the kids were doing.
Prayer, which addressed matters raised in the highs and lows.
Workbook review of the questions and their answers.
Memory work.
Closing prayer.
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on November 11, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
Three new videos on the Lord's Prayer, covering through the First Petition. I've not had opportunity to record final versions of the songs for the Lord's Prayer yet. Perhaps later this week.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ/)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2020, 03:18:28 PM
Since I live in a rural area of limited internet and questionable internet and resources of my students, I elected to post narrated Powerpoint presentations of about 15 minutes in length.  They are easier to upload.  It was also the way lessons were posted to the Blackboard site of Concordia University - St. Paul, when I taught online for them this past winter (asynchronous format).
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on November 11, 2020, 08:15:14 PM
Since I live in a rural area of limited internet and questionable internet and resources of my students, I elected to post narrated Powerpoint presentations of about 15 minutes in length.  They are easier to upload.  It was also the way lessons were posted to the Blackboard site of Concordia University - St. Paul, when I taught online for them this past winter (asynchronous format).

Don, is your work publicly available?
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 02, 2020, 12:12:39 PM
Three new catechism songs for the Lord's Prayer are now available as well as three lessons on the Lord's Prayer. Hope you enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLF4FiQgfKr48eyLQt9QRwQ)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on December 10, 2020, 08:31:01 AM
The Second Petition Lesson and Song are complete. In the lesson I try to address what is a common weakness in catechism curriculum: teaching about outreach, sharing the Gospel. The Second Petition provides a good opportunity for teaching about that. I'll try to include it also for the Second Article of the Creed when I prepare that lesson. God bless.

https://youtu.be/wv99mh-dH6E (https://youtu.be/wv99mh-dH6E)

https://youtu.be/WXWXg1eebXc (https://youtu.be/WXWXg1eebXc)
Title: Re: Youth Catechesis Question
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on January 17, 2021, 03:35:30 PM
Managed to finish the Third Petition and song. God bless!

Lesson. https://youtu.be/IHm3Q-GWiTI (https://youtu.be/IHm3Q-GWiTI)

Song. https://youtu.be/DiGT3LBetos (https://youtu.be/DiGT3LBetos)