ALPB Forum Online

ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: David Becker on June 09, 2020, 05:47:43 PM

Title: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: David Becker on June 09, 2020, 05:47:43 PM
https://www.unitedlutheranseminary.edu/about/president-erwin
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: MEKoch on June 09, 2020, 06:02:48 PM
Another sad day for the ELCA. 
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 09, 2020, 06:09:38 PM
Another sad day for the ELCA.

Aye.

Another first...both for the appointee and for the ELCA.

Kyrie eleison.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 06:25:54 PM
A good day for the ELCA. He is perhaps the best educated seminary professor we have. A degree from Harvard and advanced degrees from Yale. Studied Lutheranism in Germany. Taught for many years at a Lutheran college before being elected a synod bishop. In contrast, the latest president at Wartburg Seminary, a friend of mine, did not have a Ph.D. and was not listed as "faculty." (She has resigned to move on to another position.) I don't know about the presidents at other seminaries.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 06:26:46 PM
MEkoch writes:
Another sad day for the ELCA.
I comment:
Says who? Obviously not those in charge of the seminary, those in the seminary community or the thousands  of ELCA people who elected and celebrated him as bishop. I also notice that he is a rather high level Scholar with more advanced academic degrees than most of our bishops.
As for your opinion....
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 09, 2020, 06:46:36 PM
It is interesting that none of the Apostles were gay partnered men.  Christ wanted men
who would be an example of  moral decency as they proclaimed the Gospel message.
The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "an overseer must be above reproach, the husband
of one wife......He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his
children submissive." (ESV)
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 07:12:54 PM
It is interesting that none of the Apostles were gay partnered men.  Christ wanted men
who would be an example of  moral decency as they proclaimed the Gospel message.
The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "an overseer must be above reproach, the husband
of one wife......He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his
children submissive." (ESV)


It would seem that none of the apostles were married men. (While Peter had a mother-in-law, there is never any mention of a wife.) In contrast to the words in Timothy, Paul recommends that believers remain single. That way their total devotion would be to the Lord and not shared with a spouse.


None of the apostles were Gentiles, either. Only Jews qualified. Even Timothy, because of a Jewish mother, would have been considered Jewish.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 09, 2020, 09:51:13 PM
If he were being proposed for president of CSL no. He wouldn't fit an LCMS institution. For the ELCA he should fit right in.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 09, 2020, 10:00:28 PM
It is interesting that none of the Apostles were gay partnered men.  Christ wanted men
who would be an example of  moral decency as they proclaimed the Gospel message.
The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "an overseer must be above reproach, the husband
of one wife......He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his
children submissive." (ESV)


It would seem that none of the apostles were married men. (While Peter had a mother-in-law, there is never any mention of a wife.) In contrast to the words in Timothy, Paul recommends that believers remain single. That way their total devotion would be to the Lord and not shared with a spouse.


None of the apostles were Gentiles, either. Only Jews qualified. Even Timothy, because of a Jewish mother, would have been considered Jewish.
So he had a mother-in-law without being married? What law would make her that? Even Jesus giving John and Mary to each other said, "Behold your mother," not "Behold your mother-in-law."

The "words in Timothy" are Paul's.

Paul "wishes" everyone could remain single, but recognizes most can't live chastely that way, so he recommends marriage for them.

The Apostles were Jewish because they were chosen from among His followers and eye-witnesses of Jesus ministry prior to His death and resurrection.

Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
Pastor Fienen:
If he were being proposed for president of CSL no. He wouldn't fit an LCMS institution. For the ELCA he should fit right in.
Me:
You mean because he has degrees from Harvard and Yale, was a Fulbright scholar at the famed theological school in Tübingen, Germany, and has spent years as a college professor of history and theology? And has worked internationally with the LWF and World Council of Churches? Or because he has Native American ancestry in the Osage Nation?
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Jim Butler on June 09, 2020, 10:15:09 PM
It is interesting that none of the Apostles were gay partnered men.  Christ wanted men
who would be an example of  moral decency as they proclaimed the Gospel message.
The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "an overseer must be above reproach, the husband
of one wife......He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his
children submissive." (ESV)

It would seem that none of the apostles were married men. (While Peter had a mother-in-law, there is never any mention of a wife.)

Do you actually read the Scriptures? Do you?

1 Cor. 9:5:  Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife,[Lit. a sister as wife] as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?


Paul makes it quite clear that the "other apostles" have wives with them. There's no other way to read this.

The reason Peter is the only married disciple is that he is older than the rest; he, along with Jesus, is the only one or over.

In contrast to the words in Timothy, Paul recommends that believers remain single. That way their total devotion would be to the Lord and not shared with a spouse.

Actually, in 1 Cor 7, Paul says that he wishes all believers were like him so that they could totally devote themselves to the Lord, and he notes that to remain single is "better", but he realizes that isn't possible and states that if one does marry "it is no sin" and that he/she "will do well."


None of the apostles were Gentiles, either. Only Jews qualified. Even Timothy, because of a Jewish mother, would have been considered Jewish.

I don't know if you realize this, but Timothy was not an apostle. He was one of Paul's helpers, as were many Gentile men.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of this. I don't have time to chase your rabbits.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Jim Butler on June 09, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
Pastor Fienen:
If he were being proposed for president of CSL no. He wouldn't fit an LCMS institution. For the ELCA he should fit right in.
Me:
You mean because he has degrees from Harvard and Yale, was a Fulbright scholar at the famed theological school in Tübingen, Germany, and has spent years as a college professor of history and theology? And has worked internationally with the LWF and World Council of Churches? Or because he has Native American ancestry in the Osage Nation?

Because he is married to another man which the Lord God specifically forbids in His Holy Word. But you knew that. You're just being snarky as usual, Charlie.

United Seminary has taught us the lesson of the ELCA: When the ELCA said it would respect bound consciences, it was lying. Maybe those who voted in favor meant it, but the leadership never did. United fired a woman who once upon a time held to Scriptural marriage and hired a man married to another man.

I wonder if he will lead prayers to the ELCA goddess as well.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 09, 2020, 10:25:14 PM
Pastor Fienen:
If he were being proposed for president of CSL no. He wouldn't fit an LCMS institution. For the ELCA he should fit right in.
Me:
You mean because he has degrees from Harvard and Yale, was a Fulbright scholar at the famed theological school in Tübingen, Germany, and has spent years as a college professor of history and theology? And has worked internationally with the LWF and World Council of Churches? Or because he has Native American ancestry in the Osage Nation?
Very funny, you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Jeremy_Loesch on June 09, 2020, 10:33:01 PM
Pastor Fienen:
If he were being proposed for president of CSL no. He wouldn't fit an LCMS institution. For the ELCA he should fit right in.
Me:
You mean because he has degrees from Harvard and Yale, was a Fulbright scholar at the famed theological school in Tübingen, Germany, and has spent years as a college professor of history and theology? And has worked internationally with the LWF and World Council of Churches? Or because he has Native American ancestry in the Osage Nation?

Because he is married to another man which the Lord God specifically forbids in His Holy Word. But you knew that. You're just being snarky as usual, Charlie.

United Seminary has taught us the lesson of the ELCA: When the ELCA said it would respect bound consciences, it was lying. Maybe those who voted in favor meant it, but the leadership never did. United fired a woman who once upon a time held to Scriptural marriage and hired a man married to another man.

I wonder if he will lead prayers to the ELCA goddess as well.

Of course he will. She's the deity in the ELCA these days. And he'll probably encourage the confession of sins to a plant since that is what cutting edge atheism is doing these days at Union. Birds of a feather....

Jeremy
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 11:55:53 PM
Your words, Jeremy Loesch, are mean and nasty and untrue, and I think you know that.
Shall I begin my commentary on the LCMS based solely on the Comments over on that fringe-y “Lutherquest”?
And now, 11 years after the decision, and when we have come to the place where we are, can you people stop acting being surprised And supposedly “outraged” that we have certain kind of leaders?
I’m no longer surprised that some of your leaders are more Chicago-style political operatives than churchmen.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 10, 2020, 12:36:34 AM
https://www.unitedlutheranseminary.edu/about/president-erwin

On one hand, it will be good to have scholar in that position, and President-elect Erwin is a good one. He's also actually Lutheran, which is a good thing for "United Lutheran Seminary."  And several times on this forum I've spoken of the personal connections he and I have that began when he became Interim Pastor at my home congregation, serving as my mother's pastor.  And by all accounts, he was a good pastor for them.
 
On the other hand, as a man married to another man who believes and teaches that this is nothing to repent of, he is by definition a wicked priest.  Furthermore, the circumstances of his ordination, particularly given the Conference of Bishops' consistent practice regarding first calls (his first "call" was from the Synod to his already long-held professorship at Cal Lutheran, one for which before 2010 the COB would have brushed off his ordination without a thought), deeply, deeply offends me -- one who has long supported non-stipendiary, part-time, and non-congregational calls.

In the end, his election as President of what remains of what was once the premier Lutheran seminary in this hemisphere is yet one more instance in which ELCA leadership demonstrates that "trust" is a word void of any meaning whatsoever in this church.

Kyrie eleison.  Christe eleison.  Kyrie eleison.

Steven+
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 10, 2020, 12:43:59 AM
Guy Erwin and his husband Robert Flynn will advance the cause of married homosexuals
as they distort God's institution of marriage intended for one male and one female.

The press release blathers how they will be a blessing to the United Lutheran Seminary.
Who really believes that the Lord will bless the seminary presidency of a married homosexual?
The ELCA has earned the label of being a denomination which teaches contrary to the Bible.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 10, 2020, 12:57:30 AM
This might be viewed as the logical conclusion of Schmuckerite syncretism and unionism.

Pr. Tibbetts, I trust you were referring the Philadelphia as the "premier" institution.

(Full disclosure:  My "Lutheran year" was at Gettysburg)
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 01:06:46 AM
Guy Erwin and his husband Robert Flynn will advance the cause of married homosexuals
as they distort God's institution of marriage intended for one male and one female.

The press release blathers how they will be a blessing to the United Lutheran Seminary.
Who really believes that the Lord will bless the seminary presidency of a married homosexual?
The ELCA has earned the label of being a denomination which teaches contrary to the Bible.

Sounds like this guy has been out of the closet for quite some time ... wondering whether the vetting process missed any skeletons in the closed as were missed in the last ULS president’s closet🧐😨😲
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 03:31:56 AM
So he had a mother-in-law without being married?


A theory is that he had been married. His wife died. That gave him the freedom to leave everything to follow Jesus. He still had a mother-in-law.


Quote
The "words in Timothy" are Paul's.


I don't believe that they came from Paul.

Quote
Paul "wishes" everyone could remain single, but recognizes most can't live chastely that way, so he recommends marriage for them.


That argument works for homosexuals, too. If they can't live chastely, they should marry.

Quote
The Apostles were Jewish because they were chosen from among His followers and eye-witnesses of Jesus ministry prior to His death and resurrection.


Apparently Luke didn't agree with your definition. He calls Paul and Barnabas "apostles" in Acts 14:14. We know that Paul was not an eye-witness of Jesus' ministry prior to his death and resurrection.


Paul is often called "an apostle" in the letters (Romans 1:1; 11:13; 1 Cor 1:1; 9:1, 2; 15:9; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Thess 2:7; 1 Tim 1:1; 2:7; 2 Tim 1:1, 11; Tit 1:1; and others who did not meet that requirement: Andronicus and Junia in Romans 16:7; Titus in 2 Cor 8:23 ("messenger" in NRSV); Epaphroditus in Phlp 2:25 ("messenger" in NRSV).
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Jeremy_Loesch on June 10, 2020, 06:35:42 AM
Your words, Jeremy Loesch, are mean and nasty and untrue, and I think you know that.
Shall I begin my commentary on the LCMS based solely on the Comments over on that fringe-y “Lutherquest”?
And now, 11 years after the decision, and when we have come to the place where we are, can you people stop acting being surprised And supposedly “outraged” that we have certain kind of leaders?
I’m no longer surprised that some of your leaders are more Chicago-style political operatives than churchmen.

I'll take the mean and nasty but I don't think untrue fits. Feel free to write that commentary on Lutherquest. I can't imagine there'd be anything too shocking. And comments about LCMS synodical leaders have already been made, recycled, and are back in the queue waiting for the next opportune moment.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Charles Austin on June 10, 2020, 06:58:51 AM
Jeremy Loesch:
And comments about LCMS synodical leaders have already been made, recycled, and are back in the queue waiting for the next opportune moment.
Me:
And I do not haul them out again and again except that I do note your synod has a history of fighting about leaders.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 10, 2020, 09:11:01 AM
Jeremy Loesch:
And comments about LCMS synodical leaders have already been made, recycled, and are back in the queue waiting for the next opportune moment.
Me:
And I do not haul them out again and again except that I do note your synod has a history of fighting about leaders.
2009 was declared a cease-fire. Anyone who said revisionists simply defeated traditionalists was trying to start a fight. Now, anyone who suggests otherwise is just trying to start a fight. We all know that the opinion this man models sexual immorality, distortion of God’s Word, and unrepentance has no place In the ELCA. Some official positions are more equal than others.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 09:52:56 AM
Jeremy Loesch:
And comments about LCMS synodical leaders have already been made, recycled, and are back in the queue waiting for the next opportune moment.
Me:
And I do not haul them out again and again except that I do note your synod has a history of fighting about leaders.
Just got to love how some how have NEVER been a member of the LCMS can criticize the LCMS  ... but those who have been part of another unnamed Lutheran denomination but have left are consistently criticized for being critical of their former church body.   


Hypocritical... don't you think.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Jim Butler on June 10, 2020, 12:13:07 PM
Your words, Jeremy Loesch, are mean and nasty and untrue, and I think you know that.
Shall I begin my commentary on the LCMS based solely on the Comments over on that fringe-y “Lutherquest”?
And now, 11 years after the decision, and when we have come to the place where we are, can you people stop acting being surprised And supposedly “outraged” that we have certain kind of leaders?
I’m no longer surprised that some of your leaders are more Chicago-style political operatives than churchmen.

The ELCA's official Facebook page and Twitter account had a prayer to "Mother God." I don't think that is "fringe-y".

When I asked you and Brian if why one could not then use the term 'goddess' neither one of you said why it is heretical; you both simply said you don't do it. Now, maybe you consider yourself and Brian to be "fringe-y", but I'm going based on what you said.

As for "Chicago-style political operatives" you mean like passing a resolution in 2009 which specifically states that bound consciences will be respected and attacking those with bound consciences 10 years later? I could actually have respect if the ELCA officially stated "Get with the LBGT agenda or leave." As it is, that's the actual policy, even though it contravenes the resolution. That's Chicago style politics--from the church body that located in Chicago.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: DCharlton on June 10, 2020, 07:18:20 PM
Your words, Jeremy Loesch, are mean and nasty and untrue, and I think you know that.
Shall I begin my commentary on the LCMS based solely on the Comments over on that fringe-y “Lutherquest”?

Haven't you done that several times already?


Quote
And now, 11 years after the decision, and when we have come to the place where we are, can you people stop acting being surprised And supposedly “outraged” that we have certain kind of leaders?
I’m no longer surprised that some of your leaders are more Chicago-style political operatives than churchmen.

Wasn't Pastor Fienen doing the very thing you suggest?  And all you did was respond with contempt?  You just can't be satisfied.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: DCharlton on June 10, 2020, 07:22:00 PM
Speaking of Rev. Doctor R. Guy Bishop Erwin, I don't think there is any danger that his regime will be more hostile to students who hold traditional views on marriage than the current regime is.  He might even be more respectful of people with traditional views, if Pastor Tibbett's experience is indicative of his attitude.
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: TERJr on June 11, 2020, 09:31:30 AM
Speaking of Rev. Doctor R. Guy Bishop Erwin, I don't think there is any danger that his regime will be more hostile to students who hold traditional views on marriage than the current regime is.  He might even be more respectful of people with traditional views, if Pastor Tibbett's experience is indicative of his attitude.

It could turn to be a shrewd decision. He has to raise money or fall into the trap Southern did with LR’s Faustian bargain. If he can do that and operate above board, he will be a big improvement. It may also be that he is positioned to be able create some sort of order out of the chaos with students and faculty because none of the usual trump cards can be played (except being cis-gendered, I guess).
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Chuck on June 11, 2020, 09:48:45 AM
Speaking of Rev. Doctor R. Guy Bishop Erwin, I don't think there is any danger that his regime will be more hostile to students who hold traditional views on marriage than the current regime is.  He might even be more respectful of people with traditional views, if Pastor Tibbett's experience is indicative of his attitude.

It could turn to be a shrewd decision. He has to raise money or fall into the trap Southern did with LR’s Faustian bargain. If he can do that and operate above board, he will be a big improvement. It may also be that he is positioned to be able create some sort of order out of the chaos with students and faculty because none of the usual trump cards can be played (except being cis-gendered, I guess).
Title: Re: Rev. Dr. R. Guy Erwin Named United Lutheran Seminary President
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 11, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
Speaking of Rev. Doctor R. Guy Bishop Erwin, I don't think there is any danger that his regime will be more hostile to students who hold traditional views on marriage than the current regime is.  He might even be more respectful of people with traditional views, if Pastor Tibbett's experience is indicative of his attitude.

It could turn to be a shrewd decision. He has to raise money or fall into the trap Southern did with LR’s Faustian bargain. If he can do that and operate above board, he will be a big improvement. It may also be that he is positioned to be able create some sort of order out of the chaos with students and faculty because none of the usual trump cards can be played (except being cis-gendered, I guess).


Hey, Chuck. Did you forget to write something?