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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: D. Engebretson on June 06, 2020, 09:41:37 AM

Title: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 06, 2020, 09:41:37 AM
Recently there has been a call to "defund the police."  From its most radical expression that would mean the abolition of law enforcement.  But that is unlikely to happen, although the call is going to remain among some.  In a more moderate direction it means the reallocating and redirecting of money in police budgets to other areas outside of law enforcement. 

In an article by Vox it states: The “defund” slogan dances ambiguously between abolition-type schemes and just saying officials should spend less money on policing at the margins. The Black Lives Matters #DefundThePolice explainer page argues that “law enforcement doesn’t protect or save our lives. They often threaten and take them.” By contrast, a Justin Brooks op-ed at the Appeal titled “Defund the Police Now” is an extended argument for spending somewhat less money on crime control and somewhat more on social services, as a win-win resulting in less crime, less punishment, and less police violence against civilians.

Right now there is a lot of backlash against law enforcement from certain parts of the country.  However, as the article also notes:
In Gallup’s annual polls of public confidence in institutions, “the police” rank high — below the military and small businesses — with ratings that soar above the Supreme Court, newspapers, Congress, or other entities that might check them.

Confidence in policing appears to be in gradual long-term decline, and Gallup does these polls every June, so we don’t yet know if the most recent unrest will change opinions. But historically, the police have been a potent force politically, which helps explain why police unions are politically powerful even as they take stands that tend to be at odds with the racially progressive views of the big cities where they often work....Most voters have mixed feelings, and say that while protester grievances are merited, they also like their local police...If you look at expert recommendations for improving policing in the United States, calls for broad-based budget cuts are often not on the list. And by the same token, the evidence that putting more cops on the beat helps reduce crime is fairly overwhelming.
Note: Lines in bold are from the original quote.
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21276824/defund-police-divest-explainer

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on June 06, 2020, 09:49:04 AM
This is insane. I have never owned a weapon but, if a police force no longer existed, I would be armed to the teeth as our country descends into anarchy and vigilante and lynch mobs.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: John_Hannah on June 06, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
I agree with Governor Coumo. 99.99% of police officers are good and do good. We need to keep funding their departments. But. . . .

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 06, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
I agree with Governor Coumo. 99.99% of police officers are good and do good. We need to keep funding their departments. But. . . .

Peace, JOHN

But....?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2020, 10:11:15 AM
From what I've heard, the actual proposals are not to get rid of police departments and salaries etc. but to take some of what is spent on extra patrolling, weapons, and jails and redirect it toward crime-prevention initiatives. Still not a good idea because it stems from the Utopian idea that crime is just a symptom of fixable injustice caused by bad policy rather than a symptom of the human condition. Looking at it with such a lens treats criminals like the victims of crime, and the crime as lack of socialism (which is ALWAYS ultimately the answer for today's Utopians). Where there is freedom, justice and rational decision-making, deterrence is prevention. If the duly voted on and enacted law (not arbitrary order) says, say, that shoplifters will be prosecuted, then the prosecution of shoplifters prevents crime. It isn't the job of the store or the larger society to make it so that people don't feel like shoplifting or to give them something to do besides steal things. But regardless of the idea's merits or lack thereof, I don't think Defund the Police means simply not having police departments. 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 06, 2020, 10:13:29 AM
Saint Paul police are underfunded, but they do not have the same problems as Minneapolis police. I wish St. Paul would increase its funding for its police, because I trust their leadership and the culture that the department has built up over decades.

Cities are going to have to defund something, because the economic stimulus money designated for states and municipalities is way short of making up for the impact of the coronavirus on their budgets. So the question is really, if cities are going to have to decrease funding for all or most of their services, should part of the cut come from the police?

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 06, 2020, 10:16:34 AM
One of my concerns is the idea of redirecting some calls to social workers, nurses, etc. with the idea that they are mental health issues and not criminal acts.  Yet as an emergency service worker who listens to his pager a lot, I know that even the paramedics will call in the police on some calls.  They are not equipped to handle violence, even if it comes from a mentally unstable person who is not technically a career criminal.  I think in those cases we will put people at unnecessary risk.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Charles Austin on June 06, 2020, 10:33:15 AM
We need to be putting more money into police departments, not less. But the money shouldn’t go for combat style weapons, or more riot gear.
Screening of candidates, more training, continued training, or community based policing. Require the cops to at least live in the town that employs them.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2020, 10:49:51 AM
We need to be putting more money into police departments, not less. But the money shouldn’t go for combat style weapons, or more riot gear.
Screening of candidates, more training, continued training, or community based policing. Require the cops to at least live in the town that employs them.
I agree, but I think to address the “systemic” issue, there should be no public service unions, including police unions. Internal investigations incentivize finding no wrong-doing in a union setting. Also, the requirement that the police live where they work is good in theory but not for some of the more desperate communities. What would happen is that they would just rely on County or state police because there would not be enough really solid candidates willing to raise their family in a bad neighborhood while being a marked man. And if you paid them enough to do it, the cop in a nice house next to his neighbor’s hovel would only increase the resentment.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 06, 2020, 11:10:55 AM
And if you paid them enough to do it, the cop in a nice house next to his neighbor’s hovel would only increase the resentment.

Boy, is that the human condition. I recently learned that the guy that lives in a house up the street, much bigger and "nicer" than mine, is a local police officer. My immediate thought was, "A cop can afford a house like that?" Not a pretty thought, but I confess it went through my mind.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2020, 11:33:48 AM
And if you paid them enough to do it, the cop in a nice house next to his neighbor’s hovel would only increase the resentment.

Boy, is that the human condition. I recently learned that the guy that lives in a house up the street, much bigger and "nicer" than mine, is a local police officer. My immediate thought was, "A cop can afford a house like that?" Not a pretty thought, but I confess it went through my mind.
Been there, too, almost exactly. The human condition is indeed the fly in the ointment of every system or policy. We’ve all probably been on the other side of it, too. “How can the pastor afford that and then ask us to give more?” Even if the pastor inherited it or whatever, the optics of the nice things stick in some people’s craw. My suggestion to such people is that if you think church work is such a gravy train, you ought to get on it.

Then if you do find people willing to make it their family mission to live and work in a bad neighborhood, the human condition brings in the savior complex. These people need me. I’m doing them a service by consenting to live among them. And they notice the do-gooder prig in their midst.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 06, 2020, 11:38:13 AM
We need to be putting more money into police departments, not less. But the money shouldn’t go for combat style weapons, or more riot gear.
Screening of candidates, more training, continued training, or community based policing. Require the cops to at least live in the town that employs them.

I think that we can certainly go overboard in this area.  That said, I do want my police to be protected when they must face grave and unusual danger.  There needs to be a balance.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 06, 2020, 11:47:57 AM
Any city that literally removes their police department will quickly find out why there was one in the first place.

But, as noted above, the relatively high opinion of police generally can be tempered by issues surrounding the police unions.  One of those is when people discover how astonishingly generous police pensions are compared to private sector jobs.  The other is when a union accomplishes something genuinely evil, like getting reinstatement and back pay for the Florida deputy who hid in the parking lot during the Parkland school shooting.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 06, 2020, 12:05:38 PM
This is insane. I have never owned a weapon but, if a police force no longer existed, I would be armed to the teeth as our country descends into anarchy and vigilante and lynch mobs.
First a pandemic, then civil unrest: Gun sales spike agai (http://alpb.org/Forum/First a pandemic, then civil unrest: Gun sales spike again)n” ... actually it is already happening.


Actually what is even more scary than that is when elected city officials ask the city police chief why force was not used in a peaceful KKK rally when force is used at a violent rally where damage to public and private property occurs ... where looting occurs, where an interstate highway is closed ... endangering the public by cutting off access to hospital emergency room and other public safety functions.


By the way Rev Austin how about getting your high horse and disarming the thugs who are throwing rocks, bricks, frozen water bottles, and other containers containing flammable and caustic materials.  Your lack of contempt for these violent scum Bag thugs is exceeded only by your lack of appreciation and support for law enforcement. Your apparent desire is to tie the hands of law enforcement in such a manner as to neutralize/negate any Upper Hand they may have in defending themselves and the public.  Hopefully it will not take the looting of Trillium Woods for you to see the error of your ways!
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 06, 2020, 12:09:28 PM
I was wondering where I had encountered the internal logic of the "Defund the Police" advocates before. And then I recalled:
https://youtu.be/tO5sxLapAts

Phase 1: Defund the Police...
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: The Yak on June 06, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
A Wall Street Journal opinion piece (https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-policing-saves-black-lives-11591052916):

From the article:

Mr. Fryer said that because of changes in police behavior following investigations in these and other cities, “my estimates show that we lost a thousand more lives, most of them black as well, because of an increase in homicides.” The protesters and their political allies insist that policing is the problem, but when police pull back, black communities are hit hardest.

...

And now we know how scapegoating law enforcement can backfire in ways that do the most harm to our most vulnerable communities. “I never would have guessed that if police stopped putting in the effort, that homicides would change like this,” said Mr. Fryer. “You hear some people say ‘Oh, we want to police our own neighborhoods, get out.’ No, you don’t want that. I guess I always knew it was a foolish idea, but I didn’t realize it was this deadly.”
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James_Gale on June 06, 2020, 01:20:56 PM
A Wall Street Journal opinion piece (https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-policing-saves-black-lives-11591052916):

From the article:

Mr. Fryer said that because of changes in police behavior following investigations in these and other cities, “my estimates show that we lost a thousand more lives, most of them black as well, because of an increase in homicides.” The protesters and their political allies insist that policing is the problem, but when police pull back, black communities are hit hardest.

...

And now we know how scapegoating law enforcement can backfire in ways that do the most harm to our most vulnerable communities. “I never would have guessed that if police stopped putting in the effort, that homicides would change like this,” said Mr. Fryer. “You hear some people say ‘Oh, we want to police our own neighborhoods, get out.’ No, you don’t want that. I guess I always knew it was a foolish idea, but I didn’t realize it was this deadly.”


It may be relevant to some here that "Mr. Fryer" is Dr. Roland Fryer, an African-American professor or economics at Harvard.  Professor Fryer in 2017 published a paper entitled "An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force."  Link (https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf?mod=article_inline) 


In the paper's abstract, Dr. Fryer writes that on "non-lethal use of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police."  Controls accounting for "important context and civilian behavior" partially explains the disparity.  By contrast, the data show "no racial differences" in officer-involved shootings "in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account."  (Recent studies at Michigan State and the University of Maryland have reached the same basic conclusion regarding the use by police of lethal force.)


Dr. Fryer ends his paper by admitting uncertainty regarding the implications of his study:


The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces.

Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation, is the possibility that racial differences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters.





Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2020, 10:04:31 PM
I may have spoken too soon about what people mean by defunding the police.

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/06/06/watch-as-minneapolis-mayor-jacob-frey-is-booed-out-of-a-protest-for-refusing-calls-to-defund-the-police/

One comfort in troubled times is that people who favor chaos over order tend not to coordinate their efforts very well.

Edit: I think the most surprising thing about the videos is that the mayor of Minneapolis looks like a college student. Man, I must be getting old.

Also, he couldn't possibly have abased himself any more than he did and it wasn't enough. Unless he publicly committed, as mayor, to making the largest city in the state bereft of police officers, he was shamed out of the gathering. I thought the handled it well.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2020, 10:17:10 PM
Sorry, try this link.

https://youtu.be/4gTRJ4T3MHM
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Jeremy_Loesch on June 06, 2020, 10:53:53 PM
That was something to watch. From that video defund the police means abolish the police. He gave a pretty reasonable answer and it wasn't good enough. He was supposed to grovel and beg but that wouldn't have been good enough.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 06, 2020, 11:03:14 PM
Sorry, try this link.

https://youtu.be/4gTRJ4T3MHM (https://youtu.be/4gTRJ4T3MHM)
A shocking but predictable example of intolerance ... but then we have seen a lot of that these days.  Unless one espouses the political correctness of the day, they are excoriated for expressing their opinions.

No, I’m not talking about the fact that the crowd has the opinion that they apparently do (wrong as it may be) ... I’m talking about the fact that they were so intolerant that as soon as the mayor was honest with them they demanded that he leave.  That’s intolerance run a muck ... the mayor had every right to remain if he desired.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 07, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
This will be an interesting experiment. What will happen to cities when they greatly reduce or eliminate the police in their cities. It will be interesting to see if Blacks in those cities will actually be better off. Racial violence by the police is a very serious problem to must be addressed. But whether simply eliminating the police will solve our cities' problems
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 07, 2020, 09:03:54 PM
Trained, experienced police officers are hard to come by. My brother says Fort Wayne is perpetually trying to hire police. If I were a mayor, I’d be sending a delegation up to Minneapolis to see if I could entice some soon to be defunded police officers to move to my city. 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 07, 2020, 10:42:56 PM
Saint Paul police are underfunded, but they do not have the same problems as Minneapolis police. I wish St. Paul would increase its funding for its police, because I trust their leadership and the culture that the department has built up over decades.
I guess I was naive in thinking that.
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2020/1/16/families-and-activists-blast-st-paul-police-department-s-decade-disgrace (http://www.fightbacknews.org/2020/1/16/families-and-activists-blast-st-paul-police-department-s-decade-disgrace)
    "January 14 marks five years since her nephew, 24-year-old Marcus Golden, was killed by Saint Paul Police Officers Jeremy Doverspike and Dan Peck. He was unarmed when they shot him in the back of the head, through the window of his parked vehicle. Marcus’ murder came in the middle of a decade of disgrace - where Saint Paul distinguished itself as the deadliest department in Minnesota, and one of the deadliest in the country. The rallying cry #Justice4MarcusGolden has fueled Minnesota’s growing movement for accountability in policing and justice for all lives stolen by police violence."

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 07, 2020, 11:45:39 PM
This will be an interesting experiment. What will happen to cities when they greatly reduce or eliminate the police in their cities. It will be interesting to see if Blacks in those cities will actually be better off. Racial violence by the police is a very serious problem to must be addressed. But whether simply eliminating the police will solve our cities' problems
Perhaps we should watch a similar experiment in Chicago… How many fewer black on black shootings will there be if the Chicago PD is defunded? How many fewer shootings of any kind will there be in Chicago if the PD is defunded?

Perhaps the question should be how much will the murder, burglary, robbery, and criminal mischief rate increase as local PD’s are defunded. 


A popular President one said ‘Speak softly and carry a big stick.’  De arming and defunding the police remove the big stick ... sooner or later the public pays.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 08, 2020, 09:57:48 AM
The proposed move of the Minneapolis City Council to disband the police department has gained national attention and the members on the council committed to doing this are described as "veto proof."  It is unclear just how they will go about it, but it is clear that they will begin soon by defunding and reallocating funds from the department elsewhere.  Their end-goal, however, goes beyond defunding.  They want to recreate community safety from the ground up.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd

I responded to this a day or so ago, but as one who is close to the emergency service world, I am concerned about the naiveté of some proposed reforms.
An alternative safety model, advocates say, can start with finding “non-police solutions to the problems poor people face”, such as counselors responding to mental health calls and addiction experts responding to drug abuse.
Have these people talked to paramedics who respond to "mental health calls" and "drug abuse" calls?  Have they even consulted with the mental health providers as to the relative safety of putting these unprotected people in harm's way?  Do they understand the potential for harm and violence from these types of calls?

Even if they dismantle their department, which they appear committed to doing, the need for policing as they had it will not go away.  Like other experiments in this area they will inevitably end up putting more stress on surrounding departments to make up for what they removed.
Like many US municipalities, Minneapolis was already facing a budget shortfall due to the Covid-19 crisis, and defunding police could help address some of those gaps. There are a handful of examples of governments disbanding troubled local police agencies in the US over the years, though the authorities have had other regional law enforcement entities take over policing.

I understand some of the ideas with the defunding movement in so far as it concerns some reallocation of funds.  And that seems to be where the majority of the county is at right now.  Minneapolis, the epicenter of this swelling protest movement, obviously feels pressure to do something quite radical to show their commitment to ending racial issues in their midst.  But I am afraid that they are reacting and have not invested in serious study of what they want to do.  Crime will not take a holiday while they figure out what might or might not work.  Minneapolis is a sizeable city, and having lived in large cities I can only imagine the crime that must be dealt with on a daily basis; crime that is non-racially based: theft, murder, assault and battery, arson, etc. Do they even realize what signal this may send to the criminal element in their city waiting to take advantage of the chaos? 

I also wonder what it means to "divest" from certain areas such as schools and colleges.
Amid the current protests, abolitionist groups have put forward concrete steps toward dismantling police and prisons, arguing that defunding police is the first move, and that cities need to remove police from schools, repeal laws that “criminalize survival” such as anti-homelessness policies, provide safe housing for people and more. Colleges, public school systems, museums and other institutions have also increasingly announced plans to divest from police.

Violence in public schools, as far as I can see, is not on the decline. My daughter taught on a high school level, and students of this level can be far more intimidating than elementary level students. Some teachers are left quite vulnerable as policies more and more distance themselves from any consequences of misbehavior.  And officers assigned to schools that I have seen seem committed to forming relationships with students that do not involve coercion and force.  Again, I am afraid that by divesting from these areas we only encourage crime, not discourage it. 

I am quite concerned by what I see developing in Minneapolis.  I went to school in its 'twin city' St. Paul in the 80s and even then crime was quite evident. I hope someone is really thinking things through. 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 08, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
While the Minneapolis mayor apparently does not have a security detail, many politicians hypocritically have armed security details while 'supporting' the defund the police movement.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 08, 2020, 01:17:52 PM
"Do you understand that the word, dismantle, or police-free also makes some people nervous, for instance?" Camerota asked. "What if in the middle of [the] night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?"

Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender:  "I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors," Bender said. "And I know -- and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-council-president-ducks-question-over-how-defund-police-push-would-affect-crime-victims
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 08, 2020, 02:39:47 PM
Minneapolis is yet to provide any details of what a new law enforcement system may look like, although Bender conceded there will still be a police department in the short term. She said, however, that most 911 calls are related to medical emergencies and mental health problems, which will be prioritized in funding.

In practice, this will probably involve diverting police funding to treatment services such as mental health counselors and drug addiction experts. While a smaller police force may remain, it won’t be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis.
The Guardian

So they aren't going to get rid of the police department altogether.  That's good to hear. Somewhat. Not sure how "small" is "small." But I wonder what it means that they "won't be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis."  How do they define "crisis"?  So if there is a domestic disturbance that involves violence and maybe even a weapon, they call a social worker first? And then the social worker makes an assessment and calls in for backup?  If there is a gang-related event in downtown they call the social worker first to make sure that the youth are properly assessed before calling in the police? 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 08, 2020, 02:53:07 PM
"Do you understand that the word, dismantle, or police-free also makes some people nervous, for instance?" Camerota asked. "What if in the middle of [the] night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?"

Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender:  "I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors," Bender said. "And I know -- and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-council-president-ducks-question-over-how-defund-police-push-would-affect-crime-victims
Being able to breathe enough to answer the question comes from a place of privilege, too; not everyone enjoys clean air and good health, often through no fault of their own. The goal, obviously, should be to extend the privilege as much as possible, not take it away from those who have it.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James_Gale on June 08, 2020, 04:11:29 PM
According to this Chicago Sun Times article (link (https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1)), during the last weekend in May, 85 people in Chicago were shot, 24 fatally.  If you follow the links, it looks as if most or all of the victims were African-American.  It is almost certain that most of the perpetrators also were black.


The Sun Times quoted RC Father Michael Pfleger, a well-known social activist in Chicago, as saying, "On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, 'Hey, there's no police anywhere, police ain't doing nothing.  I sat and watched a store looted for over an hour.  No police came."


Over the same period activists began calling ever more loudly to defund the police.


How does this all fit together?  How can the rampant violence, and the (systemic?) culture that enables it, be changed?  How does this relate to any possible changes to law enforcement?


I certainly don't have the answers.  But I think that we can say with certainty that diverting resources away from law enforcement will not make poor neighborhoods safer.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 08, 2020, 04:48:20 PM
According to this Chicago Sun Times article (link (https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1)), during the last weekend in May, 85 people in Chicago were shot, 24 fatally.  If you follow the links, it looks as if most or all of the victims were African-American.  It is almost certain that most of the perpetrators also were black.


The Sun Times quoted RC Father Michael Pfleger, a well-known social activist in Chicago, as saying, "On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, 'Hey, there's no police anywhere, police ain't doing nothing.  I sat and watched a store looted for over an hour.  No police came."


Over the same period activists began calling ever more loudly to defund the police.


How does this all fit together?  How can the rampant violence, and the (systemic?) culture that enables it, be changed?  How does this relate to any possible changes to law enforcement?


I certainly don't have the answers.  But I think that we can say with certainty that diverting resources away from law enforcement will not make poor neighborhoods safer.

I wonder if Father Michael Pfleger, "well-known social activist in Chicago", tried to stop the looting of the store in any way or if he just watched.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: J.L. Precup on June 08, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
According to this Chicago Sun Times article (link (https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1)), during the last weekend in May, 85 people in Chicago were shot, 24 fatally.  If you follow the links, it looks as if most or all of the victims were African-American.  It is almost certain that most of the perpetrators also were black.


The Sun Times quoted RC Father Michael Pfleger, a well-known social activist in Chicago, as saying, "On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, 'Hey, there's no police anywhere, police ain't doing nothing.  I sat and watched a store looted for over an hour.  No police came."


Over the same period activists began calling ever more loudly to defund the police.


How does this all fit together?  How can the rampant violence, and the (systemic?) culture that enables it, be changed?  How does this relate to any possible changes to law enforcement?


I certainly don't have the answers.  But I think that we can say with certainty that diverting resources away from law enforcement will not make poor neighborhoods safer.

I wonder if Father Michael Pfleger, "well-known social activist in Chicago", tried to stop the looting of the store in any way or if he just watched.

Pr Bohler, I read through the whole article because many of the street addresses are familiar to me because my first parish was in Chicago.  There is a report of one person who tried to stop the looting, and he was shot.  Thankfully, he was not killed.  It seems that the safest course of action between trying to stop looting or watching it would be to watch it, and, I might add, watching at a good distance.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 08, 2020, 05:36:35 PM
The model being put forward to Minneapolis with regard to disbanding their police department is what was done in Camden, NJ.  Out of curiosity I looked up the population of Camden.  It is 73,973.  Minneapolis, by comparison, is 429,606.  The "metro population" is 3.6 million.  By my estimates, Camden isn't even 20% the size of the urban area of Minneapolis.  I think when people look at one area for ideas they should also compare the populations.  Larger urban areas have unique needs and challenges.

Now that doesn't mean that aspects of the Camden model can't work.  Rebuilding trust, community-policing - I'm sure Minneapolis can gain something from examining what this city did.   
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 08, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
According to this Chicago Sun Times article (link (https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1)), during the last weekend in May, 85 people in Chicago were shot, 24 fatally.  If you follow the links, it looks as if most or all of the victims were African-American.  It is almost certain that most of the perpetrators also were black.


The Sun Times quoted RC Father Michael Pfleger, a well-known social activist in Chicago, as saying, "On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, 'Hey, there's no police anywhere, police ain't doing nothing.  I sat and watched a store looted for over an hour.  No police came."


Over the same period activists began calling ever more loudly to defund the police.


How does this all fit together?  How can the rampant violence, and the (systemic?) culture that enables it, be changed?  How does this relate to any possible changes to law enforcement?


I certainly don't have the answers.  But I think that we can say with certainty that diverting resources away from law enforcement will not make poor neighborhoods safer.

I wonder if Father Michael Pfleger, "well-known social activist in Chicago", tried to stop the looting of the store in any way or if he just watched.

Pr Bohler, I read through the whole article because many of the street addresses are familiar to me because my first parish was in Chicago.  There is a report of one person who tried to stop the looting, and he was shot.  Thankfully, he was not killed.  It seems that the safest course of action between trying to stop looting or watching it would be to watch it, and, I might add, watching at a good distance.
No one questions which option was safer. Watching terrible things unfold is always safer than trying to stop them. The question is which option shows more self-sacrificial love for the neighbor-- spectating as his house or business is destroyed while staying personally safe, or endangering yourself in an effort to improve and protect your neighbor's property and income. "Protect" is the key word; it only comes into play when that property and income is endangered, which often happens in the presence of danger.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: DeHall1 on June 08, 2020, 05:52:53 PM
The model being put forward to Minneapolis with regard to disbanding their police department is what was done in Camden, NJ.  Out of curiosity I looked up the population of Camden.  It is 73,973.  Minneapolis, by comparison, is 429,606.  The "metro population" is 3.6 million.  By my estimates, Camden isn't even 20% the size of the urban area of Minneapolis.  I think when people look at one area for ideas they should also compare the populations.  Larger urban areas have unique needs and challenges.

Now that doesn't mean that aspects of the Camden model can't work.  Rebuilding trust, community-policing - I'm sure Minneapolis can gain something from examining what this city did.

Feel free to correct me here -- But didn't Camden introduce this model because they wanted more officers on patrol?  They basically dissolved the local (union) PD, and contracted with the County (which was non-union at the time).   

Camden's current "Use of Force" policy didn't come about until 5-6 years after the dissolution of the local PD.

*Note: Just realized I wrote “parole” instead of “patrol”.  Yikes!
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 08, 2020, 06:12:28 PM
However and whatever Camden did, they did not end up without a police force. Perhaps in some of our cities, the current police administration has messed things up so badly that it may be necessary to start over. But some police force is necessary. It might also be a good idea that have the new police force ready before showing the current one the door,
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 09, 2020, 09:12:45 AM
Why chant Defund the Police and then endlessly explain how and why it doesn’t really defund, it redirects funding, and there will still be police, but just not, you know, “police.” The answer is that it channels rage into progressivism. Black Lives Matter does too. That’s why I do not support such slogans or movements. They are just fronts for political action by people who think in Marxist categories.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 09, 2020, 09:26:28 AM
However and whatever Camden did, they did not end up without a police force. Perhaps in some of our cities, the current police administration has messed things up so badly that it may be necessary to start over. But some police force is necessary. It might also be a good idea that have the new police force ready before showing the current one the door,

At first the slogan was just a simple "defund the police," or more drastic, in the Minneapolis City Council's case, "dismantle the police."  Then, that began to be nuanced a bit more with the proviso that some kind of police force would remain, albeit a much smaller one.  As others have observed, especially on another thread, the burden that cannot be handled by local authorities will no doubt be farmed out to the state police and the county sheriff's department. 

I think that the calls to "defund" and "dismantle" are political slogans designed, as most are, to demonstrate the intensity of dissatisfaction at the moment.  In my opinion they are not realistic or sustainable, especially in the case of a rather large metro area like Minneapolis.  The proof, of course, will be in the results if they actually carry through with such plans.  My experience with sin and evil predicts that crime will not take a holiday with more progressive social action.  And what is often overlooked is the underlying issues that exist that contribute to crime, such as dysfunctional and abusive family systems and a growing and expansive drug culture.  Social workers are not equipped to ultimate deal with all the issues that lie at this level. We have a sin-broken culture that will not respond peacefully to social band-aids.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 09, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
This is why it is so important not the glom on your the Zeitgeist. Doing something because of the moment, the National mood, the historic symbolism, etc. is the easiest way to find in retrospect that did something you shouldn’t have done. I once was at a Republican event and somebody asked my why I wasn’t wearing a flag lapel pin. I responded that we were far from any border and everyone knew what country we were in. My point was just that I might wear a flag pin, but if doing so is a test of my patriotism then I won’t. That was a minor thing. But the speed with which virtue signaling takes control means it has to be resisted. If Kaepernick objected to the national anthem as a test of patriotism I would have been right there with him. As a test of my support for his irrational view of police, politics,  and BLM, I am four square against him. I wish more people would resist the virtue signaling of their own side. If a progressive says, “I agree with him on police, but think expressing that by kneeling for the anthem is stupid, so I’m not doing that,” then I know I’m interacting with a thoughtful person at the level of ideas. If someone kneels for the anthem merely to express solidarity, I know I’m dealing with a representative of the zeitgeist.

A little perspective reveals most zeitgeist politics to be as stupid as extreme fashion trends.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 09, 2020, 09:46:03 AM
In the New York Times "briefing" they send via email, they report:
Advocates for police reform are making the case that the phrase “defund the police” doesn’t mean what many people think it means. “Be not afraid,” Christy E. Lopez, a Georgetown University law professor, wrote in The Washington Post. “‘Defunding the police’ is not as scary (or even as radical) as it sounds.”

What it actually means, these advocates say, is reducing police budgets and no longer asking officers to do many jobs that they often don’t even want to do: resolving family and school disputes, moving homeless people into shelters and so on. Instead, funding for education, health care and other social services would increase.

Okay.  But we have to admit that this was not all included or explained or emphasized with the proliferation of the popular slogan.  Do the majority of the proponents of this really mean this?  They further note that "Joe Biden, Cory Booker and other Democrats have distanced themselves from the phrase 'defund the police,'..."  It is not a phrase overly popular with the majority of voters out there.  Admittedly, rank-and-file voters become concerned when others suggest the possibility of dismantling a system they still believe provides safety and security.   
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 09, 2020, 10:16:54 AM
One of the problems with the police is a problem with any group that has a modicum of authority, the tendency to close ranks and protect the other members of the group in the face of opposition from outsiders. That was a fundamental part of the tragedy of clergy perpetrated abuse in the RCC and other churches. "Protect the brother!" "Shield the institution from blame!" gave cover for those who abused their position. How difficult is it to remove a unionized teacher who is incompetent or abusive? The other side of that is that sometimes people with authority are unjustly targeted and need protecting. Life is messy.


There are a number of simple solutions to the problem of police brutality. To simply get rid of the police is one. The tragedy is that most simple solutions are wrong and will in the end cause more problems than they solve.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 09, 2020, 10:29:08 AM
In the New York Times "briefing" they send via email, they report:
Advocates for police reform are making the case that the phrase “defund the police” doesn’t mean what many people think it means. “Be not afraid,” Christy E. Lopez, a Georgetown University law professor, wrote in The Washington Post. “‘Defunding the police’ is not as scary (or even as radical) as it sounds.”

What it actually means, these advocates say, is reducing police budgets and no longer asking officers to do many jobs that they often don’t even want to do: resolving family and school disputes, moving homeless people into shelters and so on. Instead, funding for education, health care and other social services would increase.

Okay.  But we have to admit that this was not all included or explained or emphasized with the proliferation of the popular slogan.  Do the majority of the proponents of this really mean this?  They further note that "Joe Biden, Cory Booker and other Democrats have distanced themselves from the phrase 'defund the police,'..."  It is not a phrase overly popular with the majority of voters out there.  Admittedly, rank-and-file voters become concerned when others suggest the possibility of dismantling a system they still believe provides safety and security.
Exactly. It grabbed the mob’s approval by grabbing support for bold action, and deposited and spent tha capital promoting progressivism
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 09, 2020, 11:56:20 AM
Why chant Defund the Police and then endlessly explain how and why it doesn’t really defund, it redirects funding, and there will still be police, but just not, you know, “police.” The answer is that it channels rage into progressivism. Black Lives Matter does too. That’s why I do not support such slogans or movements. They are just fronts for political action by people who think in Marxist categories. <Emphasis Added>
... Or the opposite ... recently at least one American lost his job for stating ‘All Lives Matter’.  The statement “xxxxx Lives Matter” where ‘xxxx’ refers to a specific ethnicity/skin color or other proclivity of life is extremely divisive in that it places an emphasis on one group while ignoring the similar issues effecting others. The fact that as least one man lost his rather prominent job for a social media posting expressing ‘All Lives Matter” strongly indicates the divisiveness of this mentality.


In the same manner, hate crime laws are are discriminatory and divisive as well ... if I kill both a white person and a black person, under hate crime laws I can be punished far more severely for killing the black person ... simply because of the difference in skin color. (Yes, Rev Austin, you can add white to my dossier🤩) This totally ignores the fact that I must hate each victim equally ... they are equally dead. No murderer indicates a love for God by their actions.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 12:57:52 PM
Why chant Defund the Police and then endlessly explain how and why it doesn’t really defund, it redirects funding, and there will still be police, but just not, you know, “police.” The answer is that it channels rage into progressivism. Black Lives Matter does too. That’s why I do not support such slogans or movements. They are just fronts for political action by people who think in Marxist categories. <Emphasis Added>
... Or the opposite ... recently at least one American lost his job for stating ‘All Lives Matter’.  The statement “xxxxx Lives Matter” where ‘xxxx’ refers to a specific ethnicity/skin color or other proclivity of life is extremely divisive in that it places an emphasis on one group while ignoring the similar issues effecting others. The fact that as least one man lost his rather prominent job for a social media posting expressing ‘All Lives Matter” strongly indicates the divisiveness of this mentality.


In the same manner, hate crime laws are are discriminatory and divisive as well ... if I kill both a white person and a black person, under hate crime laws I can be punished far more severely for killing the black person ... simply because of the difference in skin color. (Yes, Rev Austin, you can add white to my dossier🤩) This totally ignores the fact that I must hate each victim equally ... they are equally dead. No murderer indicates a love for God by their actions.


Conviction of a hate crime also requires proof. They often look at what websites you frequent - if they are anti-black. They look at what you post online. They look at the materials you have in your house and are reading. Witnesses (or surveillance cameras could recount your words as you killed the people. If such evidence pointed towards hatred towards blacks (or towards white Jews or white Russians or white Roman Catholics) charges of "hate crime" could be added to the murder.


What does love for God require of us? Can we defend ourselves, or should we follow Jesus' path and allow the enemy to kill us rather than fight back? It gets more complicated if we talk about defending our neighbor whom we love vs. killing the enemy whom we are also commanded to love.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 09, 2020, 07:27:45 PM
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/06/09/police-reform-defund-nypd-pba-nys-association-of-pbas-police-conference-of-ny/

The police, as a whole, are being vilified.  Is this right?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 08:05:10 PM
Pastor Engebretson:
The police, as a whole, are being vilified.  Is this right?
Me:
It is not right. It is not fair. But it is extremely understandable.
And that’s what we have to do. We have to understand why the police are being vilified. It will not do to just say “they’re not all bad.”
Every Roman Catholic priest in the country, to some extent, has to bear a bit of the burden put on the church by the pedophilia scandal. That’s not fair. That’s not right. That’s not just. But it is understandable.
And every time a member of the Protestant clergy does something scandalous, we all get a piece of it.
Then consider this. Most of the scandals involving clergy do not involve multiple unjust deaths.
Can you understand why the police, as a whole, are being vilified?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 09, 2020, 09:44:45 PM
Not all of the police are racist or brutal, nevertheless a few are and they need to be denounced and to an extent all police bear the stigma. Correct?


Only a very few priests have been abusive, but because of the few that are, all Catholics and all ministers bear some of the stigma. Correct?


Most of the protesters and demonstrations have been peaceful. But a few have been violent and some who are on the streets have used this an excuse for looting, arson, and assault.  Am I wrong that that has happened. So what should we do, ignore those who have been violent and pretend these have just been peaceful protests?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 10:11:45 PM
How about you don’t send out the Cops, National Guard and military troops to use teargas, rubber bullets  and clubs on the non-violent ones?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 09, 2020, 10:35:00 PM
And you were doing so well in your previous, cognizant post ...
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 01:57:47 AM
How about you don’t send out the Cops, National Guard and military troops to use teargas, rubber bullets  and clubs on the non-violent ones?
How about these selfish anarchist thugs NOT interrupting Interstate highway traffic on the main route thru town to multiple main hospitals? 


How about the destructive thugs who looted and defaced untold business buildings with cans of spray paint? This is the behavior that brings out the tear gas and rubber bullets.


As has been said on numerous occasions,  life is complicated ... a few bad priests demonstrators reflect poorly on the entire priesthood crowd of demonstrators.


It is beyond belief that property destruction can be defended and excused by allegedly God fearing Americans😲
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Charles Austin on June 10, 2020, 06:53:51 AM
James:
It is beyond belief that property destruction can be defended and excused by allegedly God fearing Americans 
Me:
Not at all “beyond belief.”
In our history, we are often proud of the hundreds of thousands of “God-fearing Americans” who have often taken actions for good cause that resulted in property destruction.
-The Boston Tea Party, 1773
-Pennsylvania Mutiny, soldiers demanding pay owed to them - 1783
-The Honey War, territorial dispute between Iowa and Missouri - 1839
-Philadelphia Nativist Riots, against Catholics - 1844
-New York City police riot, when the Mayor dissolved a corrupt police force - 1857
-Philadelphia Trolly strike - 1910
-A whole bunch of union-organizing demonstrations in the early 20th Century
-The “Bonus Army”, veterans demanding promised benefits - 1932
-HUAC protests by students against House Unamerican Activities Committee - 1960
-A whole lot of civil rights and anti-war protests in the 1950s and 1960s
...and more.
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 10, 2020, 08:59:29 AM
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

And there you are.  :o

MLK would be so proud, Charles.   ::)
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 10, 2020, 09:10:48 AM
Consider Korboi Balla a Black firefighter in Minneapolis.  It was his life's dream to open a sports bar. He had invested countless hours and his life's savings in making his dream a reality. The opening for his dream was pushed back by the Covid-19 shut down. Rioters looted and burned his dream to the ground. But I suppose Charles that you would tell him the he should be glad that his hard work, savings, and dreams were a sacrifice on the altar making a statement through rioting. A proud moment for Minneapolis,  your new home town.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 09:11:52 AM
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

And there you are.  :o

MLK would be so proud, Charles.   ::)
Awaiting Biblical teaching that teaches us NOT to protect the property and business of our neighbor ...


Apparently there is commandment that encourages the destruction of the property of those with whom we disagree.


A perfect example example of the intolerance of the "tolerent" 😆😅
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 10, 2020, 09:13:00 AM
Only time will tell, but I fear that the backlash from the "Defund the Police" movement will be an unfortunate exodus of very good law enforcement officers from this necessary area of community defense. I think that even in a time of emotional overreaction, unnecessary consequences ensue, and among those consequences will be the fatigue of police officers tired and weary from being vilified and treated as enemies of their communities.  This fatigue will translate into walking away from careers that they have honorable served.  A loss of such experience could be devastating to those who believe that tearing it all down and rebuilding is the answer.  Yes, time will tell. I pray that such gutting of law enforcement does not reach my community. I do not wish to take part in this experiment.  Both as a citizen, and as an emergency service worker who often serves side-by-side with these men and women at times of community crisis.  I can't afford in my work to see them disappear.  That may sound like an overreaction, but just like those who encourage us to listen to people of color, I encourage us to listen to people who wear badges and stand on the front line of violence and chaos and hatred and then have to go home each night and try to keep their minds from being consumed by it.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 10, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

And there you are.  :o

MLK would be so proud, Charles.   ::)
Awaiting Biblical teaching that teaches us NOT to protect the property and business of our neighbor ...


Apparently there is commandment that encourages the destruction of the property of those with whom we disagree.


A perfect example example of the intolerance of the "tolerent" 😆😅

"You gotta break some eggs to make an omelet."  But you never hear the eggs saying it; it's only the one eating the omelet.  So what if innocent people have to suffer, as long as MY agenda is advanced.  Chomp, chomp, Charles.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 09:44:28 AM

Consider Korboi Balla a Black firefighter in Minneapolis.  It was his life's dream to open a sports bar. He had invested countless hours and his life's savings in making his dream a reality. The opening for his dream was pushed back by the Covid-19 shut down. Rioters looted and burned his dream to the ground. But I suppose Charles that you would tell him the he should be glad that his hard work, savings, and dreams were a sacrifice on the altar making a statement through rioting. A proud moment for Minneapolis,  your new home town.
  How about further proof the failure of the black lives matter thought processes. A black policeman killed by a black man while providing security fit a black business.

Where is the righteous indignation?  Where are the peaceful protests? Where are the crowds attending his funeral with wall to wall national TV coverage?

It seems some have forgotten the song of our childhood  ...

Quote from: Jesus Loves the Children
[/size]

Jesus loves the little childrenAll the children of the worldRed, brown, yellowBlack and whiteThey are precious in His sightJesus loves the little childrenOf the world

Jesus died for all the childrenAll the children of the worldRed, brown, yellowBlack and whiteThey are precious in His sightJesus died for all the childrenOf the world.

Jesus rose for all the childrenAll the children of the worldRed, brown, yellowBlack and whiteThey are precious in His sightJesus rose for all the childrenOf the world

Lyrics (https://www.google.com/search?q=jesus+loves+the+little+children+lyrics&oq=jesus+loves+the+choldren&aqs=chrome..69i57.14245j0j7&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLRT9c3LDYwLU9KS6l6xOjJLfDyxz1hKYdJa05eY7Ti4grOyC93zSvJLKkU0uFig7KUuASkUDRqMEjxcaGI8Oxi0ktJTUsszSmJL0lMsspOttLPLS3OTNYvSk3OL0rJzEuPT84pLS5JLbLKqSzKTC5exKqWlVpcWqyQk1-WWqxQkpGqkJNZUpKTqpCckZmTUpSapwBRCACfCstltgAAAA&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwjSu4WyrPfpAhUKcq0KHVAZCesQyNoBKAF6BAgREBc)

My pastor's life matters as my life matters ... as much all lives matter!

Let's cut the divisiveness and posturing.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 10, 2020, 12:30:14 PM
A press briefing was held with the chief of the Minneapolis Police Department this morning.

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/minneapolis-police-chief-ends-contract-negotiations-with-union

https://www.fox9.com/news/minneapolis-police-chief-announces-new-reforms-withdrawal-from-union-contract-negotiations

https://www.facebook.com/channel3000/videos/250264569756566/?notif_id=1591801811966657&notif_t=live_video

When asked about the announcement from a majority of Minneapolis City Council members about disbanding the department, saying it's beyond reform, he said the following:

"As chief, I'm obligated to ensure the safety of our 400,000 residents.

"Our elected officials can engage in those conversations. Until there's a robust plan that reassures the safety of our residents, I will not leave them, I will not leave them behind."

He took questions from the press after his address.  The link for the video above contains them. 



Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: mj4 on June 10, 2020, 01:23:21 PM
Why chant Defund the Police and then endlessly explain how and why it doesn’t really defund, it redirects funding, and there will still be police, but just not, you know, “police.” The answer is that it channels rage into progressivism. Black Lives Matter does too. That’s why I do not support such slogans or movements. They are just fronts for political action by people who think in Marxist categories.

It's rather like when the ELCA declared itself a Sanctuary Church. We didn't really mean what the words mean. In this case, "Appoint a commission to investigate alternatives to the current policing model, and present those findings for public review and possible implementation!" doesn't chant well on the streets. And it's difficult to fit it on a sign.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 10, 2020, 07:43:38 PM
Only time will tell, but I fear that the backlash from the "Defund the Police" movement will be an unfortunate exodus of very good law enforcement officers from this necessary area of community defense.

In every organization that is under pressure, the very best people are the ones who can most easily find alternative opportunities.  It is almost certain (with of course some exceptions) that when people leave the best leave and the worst remain.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 11, 2020, 01:36:54 PM
James:
It is beyond belief that property destruction can be defended and excused by allegedly God fearing Americans 
Me:
Not at all “beyond belief.”
...
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

"Please, show me where it says that protests are supposed to be polite and peaceful," [Chris Cuomo] said. "Because I can show you that outraged citizens are what made the country what she is and led to any major milestone. To be honest, this is not a tranquil time."

Birds of a feather ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-zb58uiFjU
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 02, 2020, 08:59:01 AM
The city council has passed a budget that cuts $1 billion from the New York  City Police Department.

USA Today:
New York City will take $1 billion from police budget, but many say it doesn't go far enough

As calls to defund the police grow louder around the country, New York City officials agreed on a budget that shifts roughly $1 billion from the police department, but advocates and lawmakers say the change doesn't go far enough.

The city council said in a statement Tuesday that the city's 2021 budget, totaling more than $88 billion, "reduces police spending and shrinks NYPD's footprint." The cuts came as the city is grappling with losing $9 billion in revenue amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The budget cuts nearly $484 million from the NYPD's annual $6 billion budget and shifts funding to other agencies as well as youth and social services programming.

The changes will cancel a nearly 1,200-person police recruiting class set for next month (though another class in October is scheduled to go forward), curtail overtime spending and shift school safety, crossing guards and homeless outreach away from the NYPD.

But apparently Governor Cuomo isn't pleased with it. 
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/07/01/cuomo-favors-rethinking-police-departments-over-budget-cuts (https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/07/01/cuomo-favors-rethinking-police-departments-over-budget-cuts)

Governor Cuomo made clear Wednesday that he doesn’t believe the city’s $1 billion change to the NYPD budget comes close to solving the deep-rooted issues at hand.

“Well, we took money from them," he said. "Well, what does that do? The problem is bigger than that. The problem is worse than that. There is no respect and trust between the community and the police.”

His lengthy and impassioned call for change was accompanied at his Manhattan event by an impromptu imagining of a stakeholders’ conversation on reform.

“Sit down at the table. Bring the NYPD, bring the community activists, bring the council, bring all the politicians," he said, then taking a notepad: "Start with a blank piece of paper. We want to design the NYPD. Any questions? Yeah, yeah, I have a question. What?”

Mayor de Blasio announced what he described as a $1 billion slashing of NYPD coffers, but Speaker Corey Johnson and other lawmakers questioned the math.

And protesters called it smoke and mirrors.

As the New York Times titled its article:
Nearly $1 Billion Is Shifted From Police in Budget That Pleases No One
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on July 02, 2020, 09:10:16 AM
Actually reported by the NY Times

Gun Violence Spikes in N.Y.C., Intensifying Debate Over Policing (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/nyregion/nyc-shootings-surge.amp.html)


The best way to address a murderous crime wave is to defund the police. One wonders of the victim's families agree.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Charles Austin on July 02, 2020, 09:31:17 AM
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 02, 2020, 10:01:37 AM
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
The root cause of crime is human nature. It dehumanizes people by removing moral agency from them to say their behaviors aren't traceable to themselves.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: DeHall1 on July 02, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.

In your world, do the police often "shoot the alleged perpetrators"?   Do you, personally, know any police officers?  Do the police officers you know arbitrarily shoot people? 

Do the police officers you know know that this is what you think they do?
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James_Gale on July 02, 2020, 10:17:47 AM
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.


One might wonder all sorts of things.  One might do many things beyond just policing.  But the price of the approach you seem to support is being paid in the blood of scores of innocent people, most of whom are black. 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on July 02, 2020, 10:21:15 AM

One might wonder all sorts of things.  One might do many things beyond just policing.  But the price of the approach you seem to support is being paid in the blood of scores of innocent people, most of whom are black. 
Also the blood of innocent police officers....Tulsa police officer killed after unsuccessfully attempting to taser a defiant perp. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/tulsa-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop-has-died-police-announce.amp)

"The encounter escalated from there before one of the officers tried to tase Ware. He was able to pull out the taser prongs, however, and continued to be belligerent. One of the officers then used pepper spray to subdue him, but Ware remained defiant."


A wife and children no longer have a spouse and father because deesculation failed went a citizen refused to follow lawful police instructions.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: The Yak on July 02, 2020, 10:55:33 AM
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study (https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324) showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-murders-and-shootings-up-overall-crime-down-halfway-through-2020-police-say/2298155/): "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP (https://kstp.com/news/wild-st-paul-shootout-captured-on-video-african-american-leadership-council-has-plan-to-curb-violence-july-1-2020/5779087/): "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC (https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta (https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3301), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Jim Butler on July 02, 2020, 11:09:57 AM
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study (https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324) showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-murders-and-shootings-up-overall-crime-down-halfway-through-2020-police-say/2298155/): "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP (https://kstp.com/news/wild-st-paul-shootout-captured-on-video-african-american-leadership-council-has-plan-to-curb-violence-july-1-2020/5779087/): "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC (https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta (https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3301), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now.

I think this comes under "Be careful what you wish for. You might get it."
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on July 02, 2020, 11:56:25 AM
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study (https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324) showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-murders-and-shootings-up-overall-crime-down-halfway-through-2020-police-say/2298155/): "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP (https://kstp.com/news/wild-st-paul-shootout-captured-on-video-african-american-leadership-council-has-plan-to-curb-violence-july-1-2020/5779087/): "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC (https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta (https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3301), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.

This was my fear from the beginning of the "defund the police" movement.  I am sorry that my fears are being realized.  People will suffer unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 02, 2020, 01:39:27 PM
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
The root cause of crime is human nature. It dehumanizes people by removing moral agency from them to say their behaviors aren't traceable to themselves.


1 Timothy 6:10 says that the root of evil is ἡ φιλαργυρία: "loving silver" or "loving money" or "loving wealth" or "greedy."


While this is the only place this particular word is used, closely related words occur elsewhere:


φιλάργυρος of Pharisees in Luke 16:14; and of people in general in 2 Timothy 3:2.


It is not incurable. The negation of these words, ἀφιλάργυρος, is used of bishops in 1 Timothy 3:3; and a counsel to all believers in Hebrews 13:5.



Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on July 02, 2020, 02:55:31 PM

The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study (https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324) showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-murders-and-shootings-up-overall-crime-down-halfway-through-2020-police-say/2298155/): "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP (https://kstp.com/news/wild-st-paul-shootout-captured-on-video-african-american-leadership-council-has-plan-to-curb-violence-july-1-2020/5779087/): "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC (https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta (https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3301), for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.

This was my fear from the beginning of the "defund the police" movement.  I am sorry that my fears are being realized.  People will suffer unnecessarily.
As if things could not get worse ...

Virginia Democrats draft proposal to downgrade assault on police to misdemeanor (https://www.google.com/search?q=Virginia+Democrats+draft+proposal+to+downgrade+assault+on+police+to+misdemeanor%0APublished+1+day+agoFOX+News&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on August 05, 2020, 10:17:40 AM
Every day I get a summary of news stories from the New York Times via email.  This was one of the headlines and summaries for today:

Seeking ‘good police’ in Minneapolis

The Minneapolis City Council pledged to drastically scale back the size and scope of the city’s police force after the killing of George Floyd. But residents of Minneapolis’s majority-Black North Side have mixed feelings about that effort — and about the wider push to defund the police by redirecting their resources to struggling communities.

Many North Side residents dislike the police but rely on them to respond to crime, and most say they prefer reforms like improved police training to defunding. Some have also accused elected officials of ignoring their views. As one resident told The Times’s John Eligon: “It’s good to have good police. It’s bad to have bad police.”
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James J Eivan on August 05, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
Every day I get a summary of news stories from the New York Times via email.  This was one of the headlines and summaries for today:

Seeking ‘good police’ in Minneapolis

The Minneapolis City Council pledged to drastically scale back the size and scope of the city’s police force after the killing of George Floyd. But residents of Minneapolis’s majority-Black North Side have mixed feelings about that effort — and about the wider push to defund the police by redirecting their resources to struggling communities.

Many North Side residents dislike the police but rely on them to respond to crime, and most say they prefer reforms like improved police training to defunding. Some have also accused elected officials of ignoring their views. As one resident told The Times’s John Eligon: “It’s good to have good police. It’s bad to have bad police.”
Thank you ... I’m suggesting to my pastor that police are specifically mentioned in prayers in the divine service ... the receive great disrespect ... and need our prayers.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on August 06, 2020, 09:04:49 AM
Although the Seattle City Council voted on proposals to reduce the Seattle Police Department by up to 100 officers through layoffs and attrition, they pushed back against calls to "'defund' the Police Department’s remaining 2020 budget by 50% and reinvest that money, as many Black Lives Matter protesters have urged." Again, cooler heads are prevailing in the midst of radical and unrealistic demands.  However, that has not stopped the continued protests for defunding and reallocation of a sizeable part of the law enforcement budget. And proposals for significant cuts to recruitment and retention, travel, patrol, and even implicit bias training are still on the table, not to mention a proposal to reduce the wages of about a dozen Police Department commanders. Time will tell if their 'experiment' will make their city truly safer.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/as-seattle-city-council-members-debate-police-budget-demonstrators-gather-to-support-cuts/ (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/as-seattle-city-council-members-debate-police-budget-demonstrators-gather-to-support-cuts/)
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: Mike Gehlhausen on August 06, 2020, 09:31:05 AM
And proposals for significant cuts to recruitment and retention, travel, patrol, and even implicit bias training are still on the table, not to mention a proposal to reduce the wages of about a dozen Police Department commanders.

Pr. Engebretson,

I'm trying to understand.  Are you saying that they are proposing cutting implicit bias training?  Why?  That seems incredibly counterintuitive.

Added later:  I read the story and found the cuts mentioned for implicit bias training.  Yes, this is incredibly counterintuitive.  They should be increasing that.
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: James_Gale on August 06, 2020, 11:37:17 AM
According to Gallup, 81% of black Americans want the police presence in their neighborhoods to remain the same or to increase.  Overwhelmingly white and wealthy activist groups in places like Seattle are demanding that police funding be slashed and argue that this is to protect black people and black lives.  These white voices seem to be winning over the black voices.  I guess that black voices don't matter to the loudest of those purporting to act on behalf of black lives. 
Title: Re: Defunding the Police
Post by: D. Engebretson on August 06, 2020, 12:40:51 PM
According to Gallup, 81% of black Americans want the police presence in their neighborhoods to remain the same or to increase.  Overwhelmingly white and wealthy activist groups in places like Seattle are demanding that police funding be slashed and argue that this is to protect black people and black lives.  These white voices seem to be winning over the black voices.  I guess that black voices don't matter to the loudest of those purporting to act on behalf of black lives.

This, in itself, should tell us something about the nature of current protests.