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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Daniel Lee Gard on May 28, 2020, 06:15:19 PM

Title: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on May 28, 2020, 06:15:19 PM
I posted this earlier on Facebook and thought that I would share it here as well:

I am pro-life. That means that I reject the destruction of human life from conception to natural death. When a human being is killed by another human being, that death affects us all. The video of his murder (that is all I can call it) is a scene that violates not only our human laws but the laws of our Creator.

The death of Mr. Floyd demands justice. No, not the mob justice seen in riots on Minneapolis streets though I do understand the frustration and anger of the community. I too am angry.

May there be justice now through the due process of our laws under the Constitution. Mr. Floyd was denied justice by one police officer while others stood by and watched. His family and friends are in mourning and in unimaginable pain. We Americans should also be in mourning that such things happen in our nation. I am.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on May 28, 2020, 06:57:04 PM
I immediately received a Facebook message from a fellow retired priest who knew Mr. Floyd from the gym where they both worked out.

A good man whose life was snuffed out for no good reason we know.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 28, 2020, 07:19:42 PM
Thanks for posting this, Dan.

I was on a Zoom meeting with our ecumenical consortium in Brooklyn today.  Most of the pastors in the group and many of the lay leaders are African-American.  We broke into small zoom groups twice - once to dialog about what we're learning about Church in the corona virus, and the second time to dialog about all the recent killings of black people.  Black leaders, clergy and lay, are not just angry - they're profoundly disappointed and protective of their (and my) members, who suffer from this profiling all the time.  Our congregation works hand in glove with our local police precinct.  And they have become far more adept at community policing.  That work must be persistent and ongoing, because it really turns the tide.

Your position - rejecting the destruction of human life from conception to natural death, is the position with which I have always aligned myself as it represents an orthodox catholic (including Roman Catholic) theology and practice.

Firing the officers is basically step one.  They must be arrested.  The evidence is before us all.  Failure to arrest quickly is absolutely a failure of justice.

I'm sorry for your priest friend and the loss he now knows all too well, Michael. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on May 28, 2020, 08:04:23 PM
Firing the officers is basically step one.   

Police misconduct can be addressed on at least five levels:

1)  Departmental policy/suspension/termination
2)  State criminal charges
3)  Federal criminal charges
4)  State level civil suit
5)  Federal level (Civil Rights) suit
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 28, 2020, 08:30:35 PM
Not to take anything away from the tragedy in the Twin Cities, but about 300 miles away from Minneapolis there was another death in a conflict between police and citizens.  https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/6511003-Grand-Forks-police-officer-who-died-in-gunfire-identified-as-Cody-Holte. Officer Holte is survived by his wife of 4 years and 10-month old son.  He was from a little town just south of me. Not much air time spent nationally on this one though.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 28, 2020, 08:46:21 PM
We are not able to read the whole story, Pastor Bohler, but I really wonder why you insert this item into this beginning line of discussion.
Focus on the original topic, please.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 28, 2020, 08:51:44 PM
We are not able to read the whole story, Pastor Bohler, but I really wonder why you insert this item into this beginning line of discussion.
Focus on the original topic, please.

Because both are tragedies.  Because this one is close to home for me (Grand Forks is 30 miles away).  Because the media is quick to focus on police brutality (even when it later turns out not to be as first reported), but they are often very quiet when it is the police who are murdered or brutalized. Because I was struck by the difference of the communities' reactions.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 28, 2020, 09:03:27 PM
I am sure you cannot possibly imagine, Pastor Bohler, how words like yours anger people who have lived with and experienced and known friends who have been hurt or killed by police brutality.
This, doggone it!, is a discussion about that. The huge numbers of AFrican-Americans who have been brutalized and/or killed by police. If you don't want to discuss that, fine. But that is this thread.
May it not get detoured.
I should stop now.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 28, 2020, 09:05:01 PM
,,, but I really wonder why you insert this item into this beginning line of discussion.
Focus on the original topic, please.

You know, Charles, I had similar thoughts about your post on Memorial Day. You just couldn't let it be about those soldiers who gave their lives for our freedom. You couldn't let them have their day. You had to make it about yourself and others not wearing a [military] uniform. Do you realize how such words on that day hurt, or at least irritated, the loved ones of those who've been lost?

And someday, probably not on memorial day weekend, we will learn that one can serve one’s country and perhaps even have to make that “ultimate sacrifice” without putting on a uniform and picking up a weapon.

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matt 7:5
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 28, 2020, 09:07:38 PM
I am sure you cannot possibly imagine, Pastor Bohler, how words like yours anger people who have lived with and experienced and known friends who have been hurt or killed by police brutality.
This, doggone it!, is a discussion about that. The huge numbers of AFrican-Americans who have been brutalized and/or killed by police. If you don't want to discuss that, fine. But that is this thread.
May it not get detoured.
I should stop now.

Did I deny their anger or the existence of police brutality?  No.  So why do you want to deny me my anger at the murder of a young policeman who was serving his community, and leaves a young widow and baby?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 28, 2020, 09:15:11 PM
Pastor Kirchner writes:
You know, Charles, I had similar thoughts about your post on Memorial Day. You just couldn't let it be about those soldiers who gave their lives for our freedom. You couldn't let them have their day. You had to make it about yourself and others not wearing a [military] uniform. Do you realize how such words on that day hurt the loved ones of those who've been lost?
I comment:
If you believe this to be true, then share my concern about Pastor Bohler's interjections rather than hauling up your criticism of me.
Until we effectively and with energy face the problem of police brutality, we are in for more and more civil unrest. Yes, it's too bad when a police officer is killed in the line of duty. But that is another matter, and that is not - repeat not - a social and civil problem. The risk of harm is a risk an officer takes every single time they put on the uniform and go out the door.
To put it bluntly: Is this death worse than the one suffered by the police officer? Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 28, 2020, 09:17:56 PM
Pastor Kirchner writes:
You know, Charles, I had similar thoughts about your post on Memorial Day. You just couldn't let it be about those soldiers who gave their lives for our freedom. You couldn't let them have their day. You had to make it about yourself and others not wearing a [military] uniform. Do you realize how such words on that day hurt the loved ones of those who've been lost?
I comment:
If you believe this to be true, then share my concern about Pastor Bohler's interjections rather than hauling up your criticism of me.
Until we effectively and with energy face the problem of police brutality, we are in for more and more civil unrest. Yes, it's too bad when a police officer is killed in the line of duty. But that is another matter, and that is not - repeat not - a social and civil problem. The risk of harm is a risk an officer takes every single time they put on the uniform and go out the door.
To put it bluntly: Is this death worse than the one suffered by the police officer? Yes, it is.

Tell that to Mrs. Holte or her baby. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 28, 2020, 09:43:37 PM
All appropriate empathy and sympathy for anyone killed in the line of duty including Officer Holte. 
Certainly the thread topic, initiated by Dan Gard, has to do with violence and brutality perpetrated by those who are charged with protecting and serving.

I lived through a time in the drug wars era in New York when the police not only brutalized persons in the street, not only normally called non-white people "animals," not only profiled any young adult non-white male as a perpetrator, all of which are inherently against the vows officers take to protect and serve.  But they also took money from the drug dealers to keep those dealers in business.  The result was mayhem in our streets, on the block where I lived, because the police were looking the other way.  It's a different kind of brutality then, venal and completely disrespectful of life.

In the case of George Floyd, the brutality took place on camera, with many many witnesses screaming for the foot to come off the neck, with deadly result.  Brutality by those who are to protect and serve out in the open.

 The officers have been fired.  They must now be arrested, and prosecuted. 

Having grown up in the Midwest, the racial tensions and divides in cities that have strong Lutheran history and presence - Milwaukee, St. Louis, the Twin Cities - is to me and I would think is for many Lutherans a special source of sadness.  These are my and many of our "home grounds."  Are Lutheran elected leaders, pastoral leaders, ecclesial leaders, standing in the public square at this time in the Twin Cities to speak on behalf of justice for the family of George Floyd?

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 28, 2020, 10:05:39 PM
In the case of George Floyd, the brutality took place on camera, with many many witnesses screaming for the foot to come off the neck, with deadly result.  Brutality by those who are to protect and serve out in the open.

You haven't seen the video or even pics, have you, Dave.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on May 28, 2020, 10:34:11 PM
It looks like there is a lot to investigate and understand. Floyd was cuffed without incident. Police talked with him without incident. The mystery is why the office knelt on Floyd after he fell. And then, why did he continue to kneel?

Lord, have pity.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 28, 2020, 11:12:57 PM
The four officers have been fired.
Not put on leave; not put on "desk duty."
Not suspended.
They have been fired, terminated.
The mayor says there should be arrests.
It is reported that the police body cameras were operating. One officer had prior incidents of unauthorized force, one settled for $25,000.
The difficulty now is assuring the community that proper steps will be taken to bring criminals to justice and to assure that police are given more training in how not to use deadly force.
There have been peaceful demonstrations; and they have generally - news reports say - been separate from the rioting and looting and property damage that has gone on and goes on into Thursday night.
I have been on the scene of such demonstrations and riots in Newark, New Jersey, and remain worried that additional violence here might lead to more injuries or worse. These things are unpredictable. And I am glad I am not downtown.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 28, 2020, 11:19:44 PM
Trying to wrap my mind around a visual of someone looting a Target store!

Unbelievable! As was the video.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 12:53:34 AM
Trying to wrap my mind around a visual of someone looting a Target store!

Unbelievable! As was the video.
Where is the righteous indignation of the city mayor and others at the unnecessary destruction of totally innocent businessmen’s property ... and now as I type this watching live TV ... thugs vandalizing and burning additional businesses, the police station, and yelling obscenities that would make the roughest infantryman blush.  Apparently we live in a society where apparent wrong is met by unjustifiable wrong.


Media attempting to put spin that this is a righteous anger no sympathy for the rights of innocent property owners ... excusing the actions of a “largely peaceful crowd”. No condemnation for failure to social distance.


Just heard that the thugs have cut the natural gas lines lines and the ‘place may blow’ . No ... not Fox but NBC/MSNBC video. Perhaps they will destroy themselves.

God have mercy.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on May 29, 2020, 01:10:24 AM
Governor Tim Walz's reaction to the CV-19, especially wrt to religious gatherings has been sometimes regarded as tyranny.

As we watch the Twin Cities burn let this be another reminder of why Luther feared anarchy more than tyranny.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 06:12:36 AM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 29, 2020, 10:27:02 AM
In the case of George Floyd, the brutality took place on camera, with many many witnesses screaming for the foot to come off the neck, with deadly result.  Brutality by those who are to protect and serve out in the open.

You haven't seen the video or even pics, have you, Dave.

You write that as a statement.  It is false.  It is a useless and unhelpful comment. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 10:39:20 AM
In the case of George Floyd, the brutality took place on camera, with many many witnesses screaming for the foot to come off the neck, with deadly result.  Brutality by those who are to protect and serve out in the open.

You haven't seen the video or even pics, have you, Dave.

You write that as a statement.  It is false.  It is a useless and unhelpful comment. 

Dave Benke

Anyone who saw that horrific video or a pic thereof would never forget that cop with one KNEE on that poor man's neck, forcing the life out of him, and his other KNEE on his back, next to his handcuffed hands behind his back. Watching that man beg for his life and the bystanders hollering, "Let him breathe!" sears into the memory. Looking at the "could care less" look on that cop's face is pure evil.

One doesn't forget that. Lord, have mercy!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Coach-Rev on May 29, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
It looks like there is a lot to investigate and understand. Floyd was cuffed without incident. Police talked with him without incident. The mystery is why the office knelt on Floyd after he fell. And then, why did he continue to kneel?

I've been searching high and low for any "justification" that this officer had for doing it, and have come up completely empty.  It only further bolsters the charge of murder.

and in response to both Pr. Bohler and Charles, there have been 90 officers killed in the line of duty (https://www.odmp.org/search/year) in 2020 (so far).  And yes, their deaths are no more and no less tragic than the death of Mr. Floyd.  FWIW, their deaths are very much tied to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on May 29, 2020, 11:54:59 AM
"Evil can cause us to lose faith in justice."  - Titus Techera
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 29, 2020, 12:01:49 PM
Human beings are corrupt and corruptible. Power is an intoxicating thing. Anyone entrusted with power over other people must be held to a higher standard, whether they be soldiers, police, guards, or whether their power is more indirect. I would think the police officers around the nation would be the first to condemn the officers in that video. No, I doubt they actually meant to kill the man, but their total disregard for his humanity is inexcusable and sickening.

That officer was an agent of the government. The difference between him and a good officer is stark. But an agent of government having that much power is, was, and always will be a potentially tragic, evil circumstance as long as human beings are fallen. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on May 29, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
Human beings are corrupt and corruptible. Power is an intoxicating thing. Anyone entrusted with power over other people must be held to a higher standard, whether they be soldiers, police, guards, or whether their power is more indirect. I would think the police officers around the nation would be the first to condemn the officers in that video. No, I doubt they actually meant to kill the man, but their total disregard for his humanity is inexcusable and sickening.

That officer was an agent of the government. The difference between him and a good officer is stark. But an agent of government having that much power is, was, and always will be a potentially tragic, evil circumstance as long as human beings are fallen.

News reported to date alleges that the officer of "knee on the neck and back" knew the victim personally, as both had worked security (the police officer off-duty) for a bar/pub in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 12:16:46 PM
From Twin Cities Pioneer Press:
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Murder. Brutality. Reprehensible. Indefensible. Police nationwide, in unequivocal and unprecedented language, have condemned the actions of Minneapolis police in the custody death of a handcuffed black man who cried for help as an officer knelt on his neck, pinning him to the pavement for at least eight minutes.
But some civil rights advocates say their denunciations are empty words without meaningful reform behind them.
Authorities say George Floyd was detained Monday because he matched the description of someone who tried to pay with a counterfeit bill at a convenience store, and the 46-year-old resisted arrest. A bystander’s disturbing video shows Officer Derek Chauvin, who is white, kneeling on Floyd’s neck, even as Floyd begs for air and slowly stops talking and moving.
“There is no need to see more video,” Chattanooga, Tennessee, Police Chief David Roddy tweeted Wednesday. “There no need to wait to see how ‘it plays out’. There is no need to put a knee on someone’s neck for NINE minutes. There IS a need to DO something. If you wear a badge and you don’t have an issue with this … turn it in.”
The reaction from some law enforcement stands in stark contrast to their muted response or support for police after other in-custody fatalities. Sheriffs and police chiefs have strongly criticized the Minneapolis officer on social media and praised the city’s police chief for his quick dismissal of four officers at the scene. Some even called for them to be criminally charged.
“I am deeply disturbed by the video of Mr. Floyd being murdered in the street with other officers there letting it go on,” Polk County, Georgia, Sheriff Johnny Moats wrote on Facebook. “I can assure everyone, me or any of my deputies will never treat anyone like that as long as I’m Sheriff. This kind of brutality is terrible and it needs to stop. All Officers involved need to be arrested and charged immediately. Praying for the family.”
https://www.twincities.com/2020/05/29/police-across-us-speak-out-against-minneapolis-custody-death/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 12:25:27 PM
From the Star-Tribune today:
Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey also said he decided to evacuate a police station later set ablaze: "The symbolism of a building cannot outweigh the importance of life." He spoke after President Donald Trump tweeted about Minneapolis' unrest: "Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts."
And this:
President Donald Trump blasted Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey just before midnight Thursday night on Twitter. While protests continued in south Minneapolis and elsewhere late into the night, the president called Frey “very weak” and called protesters “thugs,” among other lashings.
Trump’s tweets came in two parts, starting with:
“I can’t stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right. ...”
In an early Friday news conference, Frey responded by saying the president doesn't know the strength of Minneapolis and criticizing Trump's finger-pointing during a time of crisis. "Weakness is refusing to take responsibilty for your own actions," Frey said, later striking the lectern.
Trump's second tweet had a conclusion that is sure to cause debate among his supporters and antagonists into Friday at the end of a difficult week for Minnesota:
“These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!”



Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on May 29, 2020, 12:50:37 PM
First of all, what was done to George Floyd was unconscionable.  I pray that the behavior this police officer displayed is not indicative of many more.  I suspect a full scale federal investigation will follow. 

That said, I am also concerned for law enforcement officers, in general, in the wake of this blow back of unrestrained violence. Some will identity all law enforcement as guilty, even when they are not, and will vent their anger even at innocent men and women. I am also concerned for the overall safety of innocent people not caught up in this.

As a firefighter I felt for their firefighters who had to watch on as the city burned, along with the police station, helpless to protect the neighborhood because of violence.  With the danger of explosions it was sad that they couldn't even address that for the safety of others.  This level of violence may be a vent for built up frustration, but it, likewise, is unjustified and a disservice to the safety of others.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Staneck on May 29, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
“But the looters...”

I note the need to resist everything within me to ponder the looting as I ponder the death of George Floyd. I don’t get to dictate how the oppressed and abused act out their trauma. If I find myself feeling the need to control their response (“You, the oppressed one, may do this but not *that*,” says I, the not oppressed) then I have left the realm of pondering the thing that happened in the first place.

This is really hard for me, so I have to be self-aware and vigilant.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 29, 2020, 01:54:54 PM
The distinction between the issues of police officers killed in the line of duty and looting/unrest must remain entirely separate from the issue of the killing in the video, at least for me. The officers who died in the line of duty were killed for me by my enemies. I get that. Tragic indeed. But the officer who killed Floyd did so in my name. Yes, a life is a life, but a killing is not a killing. I can and do hold agents of the state who act in the name of the citizenry to a higher standard.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Terry W Culler on May 29, 2020, 02:00:44 PM
“But the looters...”

I note the need to resist everything within me to ponder the looting as I ponder the death of George Floyd. I don’t get to dictate how the oppressed and abused act out their trauma. If I find myself feeling the need to control their response (“You, the oppressed one, may do this but not *that*,” says I, the not oppressed) then I have left the realm of pondering the thing that happened in the first place.

This is really hard for me, so I have to be self-aware and vigilant.

M. Staneck


What if the oppressed and abused decide to murder every child in a school, what if they decided to burn the entire city down?  At what point can we say enough is enough?  The people who are looting Minneapolis are not outraged about Mr. Floyd's death, they are using it as an excuse to enrich themselves and if we are unable to accept that fact as true there is no hope for a civil society here and now.  You shall not steal, you shall not commit murder, you shall not covet [anything that isn't yours]. 

There's another important issue that needs to be addressed.  How are the Minn. police being treated by the public today?  There's an article on today's Politico site dealing with the situation in Baltimore.  When the police are hated, they leave or they step back and only do things that are almost entirely controllable.  Now Charm City, which went down this path a few years ago, is the murder capital of America and nobody seems to know what to do about it.  Every action taken has a reaction, the question for government leaders is how to manage the reactions on both sides so that the public is not the ultimate victim here.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James_Gale on May 29, 2020, 02:11:02 PM
“But the looters...”

I note the need to resist everything within me to ponder the looting as I ponder the death of George Floyd. I don’t get to dictate how the oppressed and abused act out their trauma. If I find myself feeling the need to control their response (“You, the oppressed one, may do this but not *that*,” says I, the not oppressed) then I have left the realm of pondering the thing that happened in the first place.

This is really hard for me, so I have to be self-aware and vigilant.

M. Staneck


Matt --


I understand your point, but I have a somewhat different perspective.  The murder by police officers of Mr. Floyd strikes me as a wanton act deserving of punishment through the criminal justice system.  Moreover, I agree that people have every right to speak out, to gather, to protest, to grieve, etc.  However, I don't agree that we simply can or should excuse criminal acts, particularly when those acts leave behind innocent third victims (people, businesses, government agencies not even remotely related to the Minneapolis Police Department, etc.).  These acts also deserve condemnation and punishment through the criminal justice system.  Up to a point, you are right that none of us gets to "dictate" how the "oppressed and abused act out their trauma."  But we absolutely do get to create boundaries of permissible behavior.  We absolutely do get to hold people who cross those boundaries criminally or civilly responsible.


I also think that we should resist characterizing the rioters (those who have acted violently toward people or property) as "oppressed and abused."  Some no doubt fall into those categories, although I'd argue that this is no excuse; it at most would be a mediating factor in deciding punishment.  However, looters and rioters sometimes are mere opportunists. 


I know that you do not want any of this to detract from a focus on the vicious murder of Mr. Floyd.  I don't either.  Unfortunately, riots and looting invariably do distract.  I do not believe that the solution is to overlook later violence or to absolve those committing it.  Instead, the solution is to call all to peace and justice.  Anger to the point of outrage has a legitimate place in all this.  But anger cannot be a justification for violence.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 29, 2020, 03:17:12 PM
My brother-in-law is an African American who used to live in St. Paul.  Before I give an opinion about this I'm going to have to ask him for his perspective on these events.  I fear that he will tell me that the events that took place on Monday don't surprise him.  I certain that he doesn't favor the random destruction of property. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 03:23:15 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 29, 2020, 03:27:41 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 29, 2020, 03:29:56 PM
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/05/29/minneapolis-cop-who-knelt-on-mans-neck-charged-with-murder/24468829/

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 03:58:24 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video


https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)


I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote



That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 04:13:50 PM
https://www.facebook.com/ingrid.c.rasmussen/videos/10222939128729650/UzpfSTEwMDAwMDM0NTU0MzA2NDozMjE2NzEyOTExNjgzNTI5/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Staneck on May 29, 2020, 04:18:36 PM
My comment upstream was not about the efficacy of riots, it was about the need to separate out the two things when pondering what the death of George Floyd means.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 04:22:15 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video


https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)


I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote



That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke

Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 04:23:00 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video


https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)


I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote



That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.

Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on May 29, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
I've seen two videos. In the store footage, Mr. Floyd appears intoxicated, at least stumbling a bit. He appears to complain about pain from the cuffs in the first video. After taking a seat, things seem calm. At the end of that video, in distant view, he seems to fall. That is perhaps when the officer mounts him, which could link the timing of the two videos. The second shows Mr. Floyd on the ground, officer kneeling on him, while Floyd pleads for breath.

Working around intoxicated persons is frustrating. Hearing them complain is frustrating. One might imagine that such factors could contribute to the callous response from the officers. Neither video provides justification for what they did, leading to Mr. Floyd's death. However, one can imagine frustration as a contributing factor. The investigation has to get inside the minds of these officers to learn why on Earth they acted so brutally for so little apparent cause. As the second video shows, others witnessed what happen and could perhaps help explain things. Lord, have mercy.

Protesters, rioters, and looters should not be equated. Often valid protests are exploited by opportunists looking for trouble or greedy gain. God, grant peace.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 04:26:41 PM
James writes:
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.
I comment:
You are very wrong.  The “critical information“ including videos have indeed been available for a couple of days. And there have been detailed and credible accounts of the actions prior to the death. That “critical information“ makes it very clear that there was nothing happening before to Require the use of deadly force or to hold a man down with your knee on his neck.
As for the looters, Pastor Stanek is mostly right. In a case like this, with a situation like this, one must be very careful in condemnations at this point on the timeline. And one must be even more careful about characterizing the people and the motives of those taking part in the actions.

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 04:34:43 PM
James writes:
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.
I comment:
You are very wrong.  The “critical information“ including videos have indeed been available for a couple of days. And there have been detailed and credible accounts of the actions prior to the death. That “critical information“ makes it very clear that there was nothing happening before to Require the use of deadly force or to hold a man down with your knee on his neck.
As for the looters, Pastor Stanek is mostly right. In a case like this, with a situation like this, one must be very careful in condemnations at this point on the timeline. And one must be even more careful about characterizing the people and the motives of those taking part in the actions.
Provide the link to video prior to the CLEARLY showing how the victim became face down on the ground ... thus far all you have provided unreliable partisan babble.


There is no God pleasing reason to loot.! Make your case ... scripturally defend looting. Thank you!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on May 29, 2020, 04:36:23 PM
https://www.facebook.com/ingrid.c.rasmussen/videos/10222939128729650/UzpfSTEwMDAwMDM0NTU0MzA2NDozMjE2NzEyOTExNjgzNTI5/
Thanks for that moving video and narrative from a pastor in the neighborhood of the Third Precinct, Pastor Kirchner.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 04:48:01 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.


Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.

I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video


https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)


I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote



That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.

Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 04:51:49 PM
Actually Mr. Floyd probably did not die for lack of oxygen. It is more likely that the knee compressed his carotid artery therefore bringing on a stroke. And autopsy will probably tell.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 04:52:50 PM
Actually Mr. Floyd probably did not die for lack of oxygen. It is more likely that the knee compressed his carotid artery therefore bringing on a stroke. And autopsy will probably tell.

Even when we're on the same side of an issue, you can't help yourself and interject useless quibbling because you misunderstand an idiom. Have you no self control whatsoever?

Stop it, Charles.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 05:01:22 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.

Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)

I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.


Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 05:05:51 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.

Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)

I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.

Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?

You stated, "I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible."

So, what possible action by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, any threat is eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him? What possible previous action by Mr. Floyd would lead you to an "honest assessment of ... innocence" of Derek Chauvin? You don't need a video. Use your imagination. Make up something.

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 05:20:35 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&eid=ARCUWsojo1oH4EfezcrOo7y_pAnuQ0OVWX7TsAjxcC-MLrWg_YOrYeo5PjgbOCskH1Z3OOTUoZhnQRqz
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on May 29, 2020, 05:26:13 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.

Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)

I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.


Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?
Who cares what happened just prior? A government employee killed a fellow citizen while other government employees stood by and let it happen. This alone doesn't get your goat? This alone doesn't get your dander up for the sake of your neighbor? All citizens should come together against such action instead of looking for some reason to (for some unknown reason) excuse what is (and this is to greatly understate things) an horrific abuse of power — an abuse that can not be excused by what "occurred just prior" whatever it might be. Why do you seek excuses for the actions of someone who treats their office, and those they are charged with protecting, like this?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on May 29, 2020, 05:27:14 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&eid=ARCUWsojo1oH4EfezcrOo7y_pAnuQ0OVWX7TsAjxcC-MLrWg_YOrYeo5PjgbOCskH1Z3OOTUoZhnQRqz (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&eid=ARCUWsojo1oH4EfezcrOo7y_pAnuQ0OVWX7TsAjxcC-MLrWg_YOrYeo5PjgbOCskH1Z3OOTUoZhnQRqz)
The link seems dead, Pr Kirchner.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 29, 2020, 05:31:15 PM
Here's an interesting story about George Floyd's work on behalf of the Gospel and peace in Houston, from Christianity Today:  https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/may/george-floyd-ministry-houston-third-ward-church.html?fbclid=IwAR2cIjp48cx7C3BFHVU8IIhRYOFwDesjft_f1_SLFyuhyyTNYlEGx4wVujY.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 05:36:22 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.

Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)

I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.

Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?
You stated, "I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible."

So, what possible action by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, any threat is eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him? What possible previous action by Mr. Floyd would lead you to an "honest assessment of ... innocence" of Derek Chauvin? You don't need a video. Use your imagination. Make up something.
Got no idea who Derek Chauvin is  ... 1200 miles away ... seems like this is a Stoffregen move ... the thread is a Floyd thread.


What could have happened to cause the officer to kneel?  Something life threatening to the officer(s).  I’m sorry, bad things happen ... regrettably at times there are body bags ... much better be no body bags ... but IF there has to be a body bag, the body bag not be the man or woman who left the safety of their home to protect and defend the public.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 29, 2020, 06:16:27 PM
What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?

That's it. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 06:18:45 PM
The destructive rioters are wrong, but the death which fuels their frustration and anger is not an “apparent wrong.”
Yes ... apparent wrong ... there has been NO video released to my knowledge showing what transpired leading up to the the video currently repeatedly being looped showing the victim on the ground near the rear tire of the police cruiser.  Passing judgment without this critical information clearly violates the admonition ‘Judge not lest he be judged’ and is similar to the lynch mob mentality of the wild west.

Add to that the spineless mayor has yet to clearly and unequivocally condemn the destructive mob for burning and looting innocent business men is an embarrassment to all law abiding citizens everywhere.
I've seen the video of what apparently transpired leading up to the victim on the ground.  It's been up for several days.  It shows nothing that would indicate that level of response.  Nothing. 
.
Please provided a video link for events prior to this video

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/george-floyds-deadly-police-encounter-shown-in-new-video/)

I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible.
Quote

That you would compare public response as a "lynch mob" to man who could died  because he could not breathe due to a knee on his neck is itself tragic.

Dave Benke
That you have failed to unequivocally condemn the premeditated violent thuggery of the rioters is an abomination before our Lord.  NOWHERE does our Lord indicate that one sinful wrong justifies another sinful wrong.
Tell me, James. What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him?

What are you looking for, James? Let's try this ... Mr. Floyd pulled a 9 mm on the police, threatening to shoot them. They could have responded by taking Mr. Floyd's life and probably would have been justified in doing so. Agreed? Now ...

Somehow the police got the handgun away from Mr. Floyd, put him to the ground, handcuffed him with his hands behind his back, and one cop put his knees on Mr. Floyd, presumably to hold him down, The threat has been eliminated. Agreed? So again ...

What sort of assessment of guilt by George Floyd would be a legitimate basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, the threat being eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.

Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?
You stated, "I agree this looks damning .. but without a full time line of what occurred between the time the suspect was cuffed (across the street I’m fairly sure) and the events in the above video, fair and honest assessment of guilt or innocence is not possible."

So, what possible action by George Floyd would be a basis for that cop to kneel with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back, any threat is eliminated, and squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him? What possible previous action by Mr. Floyd would lead you to an "honest assessment of ... innocence" of Derek Chauvin? You don't need a video. Use your imagination. Make up something.
Got no idea who Derek Chauvin is  ... 1200 miles away ... seems like this is a Stoffregen move ... the thread is a Floyd thread.

What could have happened to cause the officer to kneel?  Something life threatening to the officer(s).  I’m sorry, bad things happen ... regrettably at times there are body bags ... much better be no body bags ... but IF there has to be a body bag, the body bag not be the man or woman who left the safety of their home to protect and defend the public.

I'm not trying to be cute, James, but if you don't know who Derek Chauvin is, perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

"Something life threatening to the officer(s)."

Let's try again.  [Guess who?] is kneeling with all his weight on Mr. Floyd's neck and back, who is down with his hands handcuffed behind his back. Any possible prior threat (Goodness, I gave you  a scenario in which Mr. Floyd pulled a handgun on the cops!) is gone. Any threat is eliminated. What would be a legally justified basis for [Guess who?] to then squeeze the life breath out of a man begging not to kill him and bystanders begging the cop to just let him breath?

There are exceptions to the admonishment to always ask leading questions to another's witness. One is when you know that there is no good answer. You might have been better off, James, suggesting that Mr. Floyd verbally dissed [Guess Who?]'s mama.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on May 29, 2020, 06:20:12 PM
I've seen two videos. In the store footage, Mr. Floyd appears intoxicated, at least stumbling a bit. He appears to complain about pain from the cuffs in the first video. After taking a seat, things seem calm. At the end of that video, in distant view, he seems to fall. That is perhaps when the officer mounts him, which could link the timing of the two videos. The second shows Mr. Floyd on the ground, officer kneeling on him, while Floyd pleads for breath.

Working around intoxicated persons is frustrating. Hearing them complain is frustrating. One might imagine that such factors could contribute to the callous response from the officers. Neither video provides justification for what they did, leading to Mr. Floyd's death. However, one can imagine frustration as a contributing factor. The investigation has to get inside the minds of these officers to learn why on Earth they acted so brutally for so little apparent cause. As the second video shows, others witnessed what happen and could perhaps help explain things. Lord, have mercy.

Protesters, rioters, and looters should not be equated. Often valid protests are exploited by opportunists looking for trouble or greedy gain. God, grant peace.


The news has stated that the police had body cams that were on. Whether or not those videos are released to the public remains to be seen. It is expected that they will be used in determining if a crime was committed by the officers.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 06:37:25 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&eid=ARCUWsojo1oH4EfezcrOo7y_pAnuQ0OVWX7TsAjxcC-MLrWg_YOrYeo5PjgbOCskH1Z3OOTUoZhnQRqz (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&eid=ARCUWsojo1oH4EfezcrOo7y_pAnuQ0OVWX7TsAjxcC-MLrWg_YOrYeo5PjgbOCskH1Z3OOTUoZhnQRqz)
The link seems dead, Pr Kirchner.

Sorry, it was a FB post. It's working for me but perhaps not for others. Try this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158325823144347&set=a.10152694419284347&type=3&theater
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Coach-Rev on May 29, 2020, 06:44:13 PM
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.


Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?

To put it still another way, James, there is absolutely NO justification for what transpires in the second video.  Any policeman or woman worth their weight in gold will tell you that whatever transpires BEFORE being cuffed is of no consequence once the cuffs are on and the subject was no longer a threat, which CLEARLY in that video, he was not.  At that point, the fight is over, and no use of force of any kind can be justified.

I understand the need to want to know what transpires between the videos.  I've searched for it also and cannot find it.  However, in the final analysis, it does not matter with the evidence of the second video.  He was cuffed.  He was subdued.  the "fight" was over.  There is no justification for squeezing the life out of a man for nearly 8 minutes AFTER these clear facts.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 07:05:57 PM
I’m not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I’m simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it’s likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I’m glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since “James“ seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 29, 2020, 07:22:02 PM
I’m not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I’m simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it’s likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I’m glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since “James“ seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.

A third possibility is that the prolonged pressure on his neck led to a fatal spinal injury.  Three possible ways that prolonged pressure to the neck can be fatal.  Any reasonable person would expect prolonged pressure to the neck to cause harm.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 29, 2020, 07:27:26 PM
Any time a terrible crime is committed, it is always possible to go back and see it developing somehow. Malcolm Gladwell discusses this phenomenon at length-- something that seemed irrefutably obvious turns out not to be nearly so clear. But in this case, the question isn't whether it is possible to imagine a scenario in which we can have sympathy for the criminal (in this case the officer) in the sense of understanding how he could have been brought to that point (also in this case, I believe the killer and victim had worked together, so who knows what personal stuff may be in the back story). It is always possible to do that. But it is a question of lines that have to be enforced no matter how sympathetic. You can't excuse something merely because you can understand why someone might have been tempted/goaded/enraged into doing it. Otherwise you're stuck in total moral relativism. The idea that to understand all is to excuse all doesn't work. People are not automatons.

You don't have to buy a narrative or take a position on whether this is an exceptionally outrageous example of a larger pattern or an atypical event more emblematic of human fallen-ness than institutional corruption. You don't have to interpret in terms of race or law and order generally. You don't have to accept anybody's interpretation. But as a human being you do have to both think and feel that this was absolutely unacceptable in an unqualified sense.   
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 29, 2020, 07:49:39 PM
In some ways, I think this is parallel to the abuse scandal in the churches.  There will always be dangerous people who slip through the cracks, and the wrong kind of people are attracted to professions that afford people status and power.  The scandal in the churches has been about the way that perpetrators where dealt with.  Cover up, misplaced loyalty, coercing victims, black mail, abuse of power and other things perpetuated problems for decades.  In the same way, the majority of people in law enforcement aren't racists or people who misuse force.  The scandal is the system that permits those who are to remain and even advance in law enforcement.  Most of us in the ministry are aware of that kind of corruption in our own denominations.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 29, 2020, 07:50:27 PM
I’m not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I’m simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it’s likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I’m glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since “James“ seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.

Thanks for the clarification, Charles. I simply don't understand where some are coming from. My emphasis on "the threat is eliminated," and, therefore, deadly force may not be used, is not a concept unique to law enforcement and legal fields. Anyone who has taken a conceal-carry class has the phrase "until the threat is eliminated" pounded into them. This isn't some pacifist concept.

This was absolute evil. It was not nearly as graphically violent as the beheading of Daniel Pearl (which I never should have watched. It gave me day-mares for weeks!), but the nonchalance of killing was similar. What a world!

My wife is quite upfront about things. She says that Derek Chauvin will be convicted, he will be sent to prison, and he will be killed there by inmates. She may be right.

Ah, humanity!   
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Newt Kerney on May 29, 2020, 10:43:21 PM
I hope that  the charges and punishment include State charges to make sure that the happy pardon pen of the current occupant of the People’s House does not bail him out with a pardon as he has done to racist sheriffs, and others who have betrayed their oaths to serve.  ( a certain Navy Seal comes to mind)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 29, 2020, 11:30:54 PM
It has been noted on Fox, that it has become standard training in police forces around the country to recognize that for a suspect to be placed or left on their stomach without hands cuffed behind their backs, much less knelt on,carries a high risk of killing the suspect and it is not to be done. But then that's Fox so it's probably wrong or hopeless biased.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 29, 2020, 11:45:37 PM

I’m glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since “James“ seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.
‘“Charles” “Austin” seems rather anxious to have someone join him on his already shaky rails due to his disingenuous and otherwise minimizing comments pertaining to rightfully honoring our military on Memorial Day.  His repeated child like use of scare quotes unfortunately reflects his boorish selfish nature.


 Perhaps this excursus into thread drift will lead to less thread drift in the future.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on May 30, 2020, 08:01:38 AM
I hope that  the charges and punishment include State charges to make sure that the happy pardon pen of the current occupant of the People’s House does not bail him out with a pardon as he has done to racist sheriffs, and others who have betrayed their oaths to serve.  ( a certain Navy Seal comes to mind)

Chauvin has been charged by the Hennepin County attorney, under state law. So rest easy.   ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on May 30, 2020, 10:01:26 AM
While I know that some may consider this thread drift, as we ponder the killing of a defenseless black life, let us consider that the leading cause of death among Black Americans is abortion. They are being eradicated at rates disproportionate to their population percentage. When we as a society say it is a meet, right, and proper thing to kill black people indiscriminately on one side of the cervix, why are we shocked when someone does it on the other side? Thoughts have consequences.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 30, 2020, 10:06:28 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on May 30, 2020, 11:38:02 AM
::)d

Thank you for your circumspect criticism. My point, in the face of this horrid injustice, is that the cop in question did not wake up that morning and say, " Hey, today would be a good day to kill a [defenseless black man]." He is part of the greater society's worldview. And part of that is that we have declared black lives as having intrinsically less value. I have the numbers to prove that, any pious protests to the contrary not withstanding. So why are we surprised at this so-called Law enforcement Officer's actions. They may be terrible. But they are not monstrous. They grow out of the mindset that we have created and allow to go on.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 30, 2020, 11:50:56 AM
Maybe you are right, Mr. Hummel, but I doubt it, and am not inclined to argue with you.
Except I will note that if the topic were global warming, the Ethiopian wombat, a World Chess Champion match or how boring Major League Baseball is, you would find a way for it to be about abortion.
Everyone carry on.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 30, 2020, 12:21:16 PM
::)d

Thank you for your circumspect criticism. My point, in the face of this horrid injustice, is that the cop in question did not wake up that morning and say, " Hey, today would be a good day to kill a [defenseless black man]." He is part of the greater society's worldview. And part of that is that we have declared black lives as having intrinsically less value. I have the numbers to prove that, any pious protests to the contrary not withstanding. So why are we surprised at this so-called Law enforcement Officer's actions. They may be terrible. But they are not monstrous. They grow out of the mindset that we have created and allow to go on.
I disagree. With this. We have not declared any such thing. But just as all police officers must deal with the reputation created by a few police officers, so all residents of high crime areas and communities must deal with the reputation caused by a few of of their number. The cycle perpetuates itself and is very difficult to reverse. But the effort to trace it back to its roots and undo it won’t provide a way forward. There are no effects without causes, but there is moral agency at every step. The worldview you cite here seems to equate the advent of colonialism with the fall into sin.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on May 30, 2020, 12:40:29 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."


Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 30, 2020, 02:25:27 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 30, 2020, 02:38:57 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
 

I don't know either, but here are my speculations, with emphasis on speculations. Any time a white police officer kills a Black person, race is simply assumed. Given the history of race relations, that may not be an unreasonable assumption, but would not always be the case. A couple of other factors to be considered. The officer who knelt on Floyd had a history of citizen complaints. Was there a racial aspect to those complaints? It is possible that the two knew each other. Was there a history of animosity that might have fed into this? If so, was there a racial aspect to that animosity?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 30, 2020, 02:42:35 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."

I think that in the case of the murder of George Floyd, the nihilistic destruction in the Twin Cities and across the country, and legal abortion, we are dealing with the demonic, with principalities and powers.  We are dealing with spiritual forces of evil that can possess individuals and systems.  When I think of the look on the face of the police officer kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck, or the nihilistic glee on the faces of those burning down minority owned businesses, or the cold efficiency of organized murder, I see something more than people making bad choices. 

We need to be reminded that evil lurks within personal and collective uncounsciouses.   I don't agree with everything Walter Wink said, but I agree that we need to learn how to name the powers.  This doesn't excuse the actions of individuals or deny moral agency.  It should remind us, however, we are not the masters of our own fate.  On the eve of Pentecost, we should remember that it is the Holy Spirit that was sent into the word to drive out the evil spirits.   
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on May 30, 2020, 02:49:29 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
It's a brutality issue, it's a cruelty issue, it's an issue of dehumanization, it's a deliberate ignoring of pleas from Mr. Floyd, by an off-duty emergency nurse, and by other bystanders. The officer simply did not relent or show the slightest care.

If you'd rather not conclude that it was also a race issue, OK don't.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 30, 2020, 03:58:54 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
It's a brutality issue, it's a cruelty issue, it's an issue of dehumanization, it's a deliberate ignoring of pleas from Mr. Floyd, by an off-duty emergency nurse, and by other bystanders. The officer simply did not relent or show the slightest care.

If you'd rather not conclude that it was also a race issue, OK don't.

Peace,
Michael
I agree with everything you say here. And I didn’t “conclude” anything about race, I asked.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on May 30, 2020, 04:06:13 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
It's a brutality issue, it's a cruelty issue, it's an issue of dehumanization, it's a deliberate ignoring of pleas from Mr. Floyd, by an off-duty emergency nurse, and by other bystanders. The officer simply did not relent or show the slightest care.

If you'd rather not conclude that it was also a race issue, OK don't.

Peace,
Michael
I agree with everything you say here. And I didn’t “conclude” anything about race, I asked.
I know you asked. I just said you could answer your question ("conclude") as you pleased.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 30, 2020, 04:31:21 PM
Peter-
 I am more a 1970 than a 1619 person. And you are absolutely right about moral agency. The fact that we live in a society with the pro-abortion miasma does not excuse anyone's actions. But I am tired of  people riffing on Claude Rains in Casablanca and declaring that they "are shocked, schocked, that there is racism going on here."
I haven’t been following the details and aftermath of the story, so I genuinely don’t know and this is a sincere question: what is the evidence that the killing of Floyd was a race issue? Is there any apart from the race of the officer and the race of the victim? Again, there may be and simply haven’t read about it.
It's a brutality issue, it's a cruelty issue, it's an issue of dehumanization, it's a deliberate ignoring of pleas from Mr. Floyd, by an off-duty emergency nurse, and by other bystanders. The officer simply did not relent or show the slightest care.

If you'd rather not conclude that it was also a race issue, OK don't.

Peace,
Michael
I agree with everything you say here. And I didn’t “conclude” anything about race, I asked.
I know you asked. I just said you could answer your question ("conclude") as you pleased.

Peace,
Michael
I can’t answer the question I asked, and certainly not however I please. It depends entirely on information I don’t have and thought others in the forum might.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 30, 2020, 05:09:56 PM
Experience, common knowledge, and the history of this police force and some others is well known And applied to the situation.
Would Mr. Floyd have been handled differently if he were white? I suspect most people would conclude yes.
True? Or not true? It really doesn’t matter.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 30, 2020, 11:59:22 PM
Experience, common knowledge, and the history of this police force and some others is well known And applied to the situation.
Would Mr. Floyd have been handled differently if he were white? I suspect most people would conclude yes.
True? Or not true? It really doesn’t matter.
Once all the body cam video is released, we will have a more complete picture.

A friend shared the following Associated Press report ...  published by Politico ... posted on MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/thousands-ignore-minneapolis-curfew-as-us-protests-spread/ar-BB14NMmL)

Some information not previously shared on this thread .... from the MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/thousands-ignore-minneapolis-curfew-as-us-protests-spread/ar-BB14NMmL) posted article.

“An autopsy said the combined effects of being restrained, potential intoxicants in Floyd’s system and his underlying health issues, including heart disease, likely contributed to his death. It revealed nothing to support strangulation as the cause of death.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 12:02:16 AM
Are we watching our country disintegrate tonight? Who in leadership is speaking sense to our society at this time?
I was very pleased to hear the governor of Minnesota, the mayor of Minneapolis, and the mayor of Saint Paul this morning, men who speak calmly and reasonably and in an inspiring way.
But what leadership is speaking to our nation? Who speaks to us in a way that recognizes our serious problems, promises to face the situation squarely? Who speaks who can both recognize the validity of the protests and lament the way some of the protests have gone wrong? Who speaks to our nation tonight?
Someone should Speak to us with words of conviction and promise to face our problems and offer some hope.
Someone should speak to us intelligently, personally, and empathetically. It should be longer than a tweet.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 31, 2020, 12:38:41 AM
Regrettably the failure of officials to forcefully and lawfully protect property, especially the police precinct building, has emboldened the violent thugs across the country ... that is disgraceful!  The idea that police would cowardly abandon their precinct building rather than clearly state that it would be defended is beyond belief .. that is disgraceful! One wonders how these spineless men got elected!🤬😢

Writing this with the local TV covering local violent protests and looting is disheartening.  The entertainment district, recently allowed to reopen, will now have to overcome the negativity caused by this selfish violent behavior.

Traffic was stopped this afternoon by these egotistical thugs ... the police station in broad daylight was vandalized with graffiti so lewd that TV stations cannot show pictures of the thuggery.

The Atlanta mayor hit the bail on the head saying ...

[quote author =Keisha Lance Bottoms]  You are disgracing our city,” Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms told protesters. “You are disgracing the life of George Floyd and every other person who has been killed in this country.”[size=78%]      [/size][/quote]


Oh yes ... all this destructive violence occurring with little regard for social distancing ... where are all the pious  naysayers convinced that housed of worship cannot reopen but fail to condemn the disregard for health by these criminals.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 31, 2020, 04:43:02 AM
From what I see and hear on the news there seems to be three kinds of people involved in the protests. One group, mainly peaceful, are outraged at the injustice of what happened to George Floyd and the pattern of lawless police too many of whom act out of racist bias. They are demanding justice for Floyd and an end of police corruption and brutality.  They have a right to protest and deserve to be listened to. Their cause is just. The number of police who perpetuate the kind of violence visited on Floyd may be small but their actions are unacceptable, make policing more difficult, and need to be rooted out. The number of these local protesters who turn violent are also relatively small but need to be stopped.


Another group of protesters are opportunists who use these protests as an opportunity to indulge in violence and looting.  A few may be from the first group acting out in their anger and caught up in the emotion and violence of the moment. Many more of those commiting the violence and looting care less about the cause for the protests and are simply out to cause trouble. Any crowd can be turned to violence and people, otherwise intending protest, can be swept up in it. But far too many committing the violence are simply violent. Appeals for calm and reason do little to curb their violence.


This group and their violence needs to be distinguished from the first group. While a few of them may be local people whose anger and outrage get the better of them (mob mentality) many of those who turn violent are violent criminals simply taking this opportunity to indulge. It is important for us to not let these violent people obscure the causes for which people intended to peacefully protest.


A third group are outside agitators who've traveled to these cities to cause trouble because it suits their agenda. They also are opportunists taking advantage of the reasonable outrage over the pattern of injustice to stir up the violence that suits their purposes.


People who have been oppressed and have had violence done to them are angry and that anger can spill over into violence. But that must not be allowed to obscure the justice of their complaints. Especially when it is realized  that mush of the violence comes not from the local protesters  but criminal elements using the protests as an excuse or agitators stirring up trouble.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 05:47:49 AM
Good words, Pastor Fienen.
   And all of those people, Pastor Fienen (and everyone here) need to hear words and see action from our leadership on all levels.
   Leaders and the neighbors of the people now in the streets (and that includes all of us here)  need to say, with compassion and conviction:
   “We hear you. Your complaints are valid. We share your grief at how you have been treated. Help is fix this.”
   “We admit that we have failed you and your communities.”
   “We will listen to all of you, not just the loudest voices, not just those who speak on ‘our’ terms using ‘our’ language.”
   “We need to restore order to work together. Help us do this peacefully, without armed force.”
   “We understand your anger, which brings you to acts of destruction. Help us all find better ways. We will not, in every case, use the hammer of the law to punish you. You and your neighbors are more important than our buildings.”
   “Do not fall prey to those who would move you towards more destruction, whether by calling you vile names or encouraging you to hate others.”
   I believe I heard some of these things from some Minnesota leaders. We need to hear more.
We do not need people saying:
   “You law-breaking scum....”
   “That’s just the way ‘they’ are.”
   “Destroying property? That’s the worst crime in the books! Apply the law!”
   “Racism? Police brutality? Yes, some exists, but it isn’t all that bad.”
   “There may be problems, but first you have to be more polite and respectful to us.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 31, 2020, 06:01:50 AM
Let's not forget that the people of Minneapolis a d the other cities with rioting,  many of whom have legitimate grievances that need to be heard also need protection  from those who use these events as an excuse and cover for lawlessness.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on May 31, 2020, 10:58:27 AM
The following words could have been rightfully said had responsible cool heads prevailed in the streets ...
Good words, Pastor Fienen.
   And all of those people, Pastor Fienen (and everyone here) need to hear words and see action from our leadership on all levels.
   Leaders and the neighbors of the people now in the streets (and that includes all of us here)  need to say, with compassion and conviction:
   “We hear you. Your complaints are valid. We share your grief at how you have been treated. Help is fix this.”
   “We admit that we have failed you and your communities.”
   “We will listen to all of you, not just the loudest voices, not just those who speak on ‘our’ terms using ‘our’ language.”
But tragically the evil self centered selfish behavior of hopefully a minority of possibly professional “protesters” necessitates the following ...   
Quote
 
   “You law-breaking scum....”
   “That’s just the way ‘they’ are.”
   “Destroying property? That’s the worst crime in the books!”
In the same way we are a nation that does not negotiate with terrotists, we should not negotiate with self centered self serving violent thugs.


When the final truth comes out, we are likely to find that these protests are professionally orchestrated by outsiders who deliberately crossed state lines with the intent to incite violence and distraction.


Locally it was reported that funding was made available from as yet unknown sources to provide and distribute snacks and water to protesters there by encouraging and enabling protesters to remain actively involved... thus leading to violence and looting.


Yes we need leadership ...tragically those at the local and state level in Minnesota are spineless and have advocated their positions of responsibility evidenced by the abandoning of the police station and lack of forcefully attempting to prevent the malicious destruction tragically covered by the media.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 11:36:04 AM
James writes:
But tragically the evil self centered selfish behavior of hopefully a minority of possibly professional “protesters” necessitates the following ...   
Quote
    “You law-breaking scum....”
   “That’s just the way ‘they’ are.”
   “Destroying property? That’s the worst crime in the books!”
In the same way we are a nation that does not negotiate with terrotists, we should not negotiate with self centered self serving violent thugs.

I comment, simply, without embellishment:
No. Those words are neither necessary nor helpful. They are harmful.

James:
When the final truth comes out, we are likely to find that these protests are professionally orchestrated by outsiders who deliberately crossed state lines with the intent to incite violence and distraction.
Me:
Maybe, but our governor minimizes this.

James:
Locally it was reported that funding was made available from as yet unknown sources to provide and distribute snacks and water to protesters there by encouraging and enabling protesters to remain actively involved... thus leading to violence and looting.
Me:
Show me where this was reported. And do not equate in every sense the protestors and those causing destruction.

James:
Yes we need leadership ...tragically those at the local and state level in Minnesota are spineless and have advocated their positions of responsibility evidenced by the abandoning of the police station and lack of forcefully attempting to prevent the malicious destruction tragically covered by the media.
Me:
I remain proud of our state and local leadership. The “force” James so desires would have led to more Serious trouble.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Keith Falk on May 31, 2020, 12:04:36 PM
Ya know, James, if Peter and Jeff C and Charles and Pr Kirchner are all agreeing on the same topic (the brutal murder of George Floyd is reprehensible, criminal, and inexcusable)... perhaps it's best to consider that your position may be wrong?  On what other topic do all of those posters (and numerous others) agree?


I seriously doubt that more violence ("lack of forcefully attempting to prevent" [emphasis mine]) would have done anything at all to prevent rioting - more than likely, it would've been an escalation.  A more robust presence, more law enforcement and/or National Guard, sure, who knows.. but I doubt I can be convinced "forcefully" would have done anything at all.


The rioting and wanton destruction of property (as opposed to protesting - which is a right given to the people) is also something to be decried. 


I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on May 31, 2020, 12:05:24 PM
I truly feel for the first responders in the midst of this chaos.  They are caught between a 'rock and the hard place' when it comes to doing their job.  If law enforcement appears too heavy-handed, that potentially exacerbates the situation.  If they pull back looting and violence fill the void.  The 'optics' seem bad either way.

It appears that a number of the more violent protesters are not locals.  And it appears that a number of them come from fringe groups that espouse violence and anarchy.  I don't think we have anything firm or official in terms of how they engaged. Much of it seems to be from "unconfirmed reports." Antifa is a decentralized group, so I don't expect them to post a 'statement.' 

Whatever it is, we clearly have a huge concern before us.  The level of violence and destruction is disconcerting.  If it is organized while attempting to appear unorganized, I am even more concerned. A disorganized mob may eventually spend its emotional rage in time. An organized force will have a plan to perpetuate it.

Is the goal simply to 'send a message'?  Or are there those behind the scenes looking to incite a race war, of sorts? I know that some of this may be the overflowing of accumulated frustration with corrupt systems and incompetent leadership. But I am concerned that the destruction is further worsening an already fragile economic crisis, brought on when we shut the world down.  One lady on the news bemoaned that they burned the only store she had to shop at in the city. She appeared to be an older black woman. This impacts the poor just as it impacts the rich.  Probably the former much more than the latter.  Some of those engaged in looting are just greedy and morally empty opportunists.  But that does not flesh out the entire situation.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 31, 2020, 12:17:39 PM
I truly feel for the first responders in the midst of this chaos.  They are caught between a 'rock and the hard place' when it comes to doing their job.  If law enforcement appears too heavy-handed, that potentially exacerbates the situation.  If they pull back looting and violence fill the void.  The 'optics' seem bad either way.

It appears that a number of the more violent protesters are not locals.  And it appears that a number of them come from fringe groups that espouse violence and anarchy.  I don't think we have anything firm or official in terms of how they engaged. Much of it seems to be from "unconfirmed reports." Antifa is a decentralized group, so I don't expect them to post a 'statement.' 

Whatever it is, we clearly have a huge concern before us.  The level of violence and destruction is disconcerting.  If it is organized while attempting to appear unorganized, I am even more concerned. A disorganized mob may eventually spend its emotional rage in time. An organized force will have a plan to perpetuate it.

Is the goal simply to 'send a message'?  Or are there those behind the scenes looking to incite a race war, of sorts? I know that some of this may be the overflowing of accumulated frustration with corrupt systems and incompetent leadership. But I am concerned that the destruction is further worsening an already fragile economic crisis, brought on when we shut the world down.  One lady on the news bemoaned that they burned the only store she had to shop at in the city. She appeared to be an older black woman. This impacts the poor just as it impacts the rich.  Probably the former much more than the latter.  Some of those engaged in looting are just greedy and morally empty opportunists.  But that does not flesh out the entire situation.

This played out all over Europe in the last century through the communists on the left and the fascists on the right.  People were indiscriminately crushed and killed in the midst of those two forces meeting - which they do.  Totalitarian and authoritarian regimes invariably crush and kill those in the way.

The force for justice in the center of this latest storm must rally behind criminal conviction for those who were involved in the murder of George Floyd.

I began to name our black children and youth today on Pentecost.  Is this the best we can leave them, this division, this endless injustice, this endless violence and despair?  The power of the Church on and after Pentecost is to leave the premises and get out into the world with the promises of God.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on May 31, 2020, 12:42:10 PM
I truly feel for the first responders in the midst of this chaos.  They are caught between a 'rock and the hard place' when it comes to doing their job.  If law enforcement appears too heavy-handed, that potentially exacerbates the situation.  If they pull back looting and violence fill the void.  The 'optics' seem bad either way.

It appears that a number of the more violent protesters are not locals.  And it appears that a number of them come from fringe groups that espouse violence and anarchy.  I don't think we have anything firm or official in terms of how they engaged. Much of it seems to be from "unconfirmed reports." Antifa is a decentralized group, so I don't expect them to post a 'statement.' 

Whatever it is, we clearly have a huge concern before us.  The level of violence and destruction is disconcerting.  If it is organized while attempting to appear unorganized, I am even more concerned. A disorganized mob may eventually spend its emotional rage in time. An organized force will have a plan to perpetuate it.

Is the goal simply to 'send a message'?  Or are there those behind the scenes looking to incite a race war, of sorts? I know that some of this may be the overflowing of accumulated frustration with corrupt systems and incompetent leadership. But I am concerned that the destruction is further worsening an already fragile economic crisis, brought on when we shut the world down.  One lady on the news bemoaned that they burned the only store she had to shop at in the city. She appeared to be an older black woman. This impacts the poor just as it impacts the rich.  Probably the former much more than the latter.  Some of those engaged in looting are just greedy and morally empty opportunists.  But that does not flesh out the entire situation.

This played out all over Europe in the last century through the communists on the left and the fascists on the right.  People were indiscriminately crushed and killed in the midst of those two forces meeting - which they do.  Totalitarian and authoritarian regimes invariably crush and kill those in the way.

The force for justice in the center of this latest storm must rally behind criminal conviction for those who were involved in the murder of George Floyd.

I began to name our black children and youth today on Pentecost.  Is this the best we can leave them, this division, this endless injustice, this endless violence and despair?  The power of the Church on and after Pentecost is to leave the premises and get out into the world with the promises of God.

Dave Benke

At this point we need reestablished order on our streets so the church can safely "get out into the world."  At the very moment we need the First Article gifts and some of these are so maligned because of the horrible sins of a few the rest are sidelined to a large degree. Can we learn a way to protest injustice, even display righteous anger, and yet control the interlopers from high jacking the process and injecting needless pain and anarchy? 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: mj4 on May 31, 2020, 01:02:50 PM
One lady on the news bemoaned that they burned the only store she had to shop at in the city. She appeared to be an older black woman. This impacts the poor just as it impacts the rich.  Probably the former much more than the latter.  Some of those engaged in looting are just greedy and morally empty opportunists.  But that does not flesh out the entire situation.

No, it doesn't flesh out the entire situation, but it is disheartening to see communities destroyed that were fragile to begin with, especially after so many people worked so hard to build up these communities. Mayor Garcetti of Los Angeles looked beaten at a news conference yesterday. He said it took twenty-two years for the employment situation to recover in the parts of LA effected by the riots after the Rodney King beating. So sad.

Hopefully the opportunists will leave the streets alone now that they've got their new TVs from Target.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on May 31, 2020, 02:01:44 PM
It looks as though last night in the Twin Cities was "quieter" than the previous four. I hope so. That would be the result of deploying a much larger force, namely all the State Police and all the Minnesota National Guard (13,200 soldiers and airmen). I hope this example will temper the energy in all the other cities. John Miller, the head of the NYPD Counter Terrorism Division, is working on intelligence about the outsiders guilty of the violent acts. I'll be eager to see what he finds. Miller is one of the best in the field.

I am not convinced by remarks that the local officials have been "whimpy" in their response. It has been a measured response, as it should be. Had they authorized police violence in retaliation, as the outsiders hoped, it would have gotten far worse than it has. It takes time to marshal this greater show of force. I might observe that the governor served 24 years in the Guard and the mayor of St. Paul is the son of a retired St. Paul policeman.

(Full disclosure: I served in the Minnesota Army National Guard for four years. It was a stellar military organization then and appears to be the same today.)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 31, 2020, 02:15:28 PM
I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.

There are some conservatives who object to policy brutality and broad extension of police powers, but not nearly enough.  Those who claim to be champions of the Bill of Rights out to be the first to object when those basic liberties are violated.  Here is one example:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on May 31, 2020, 02:39:10 PM
Human beings are corrupt and corruptible. Power is an intoxicating thing. Anyone entrusted with power over other people must be held to a higher standard, whether they be soldiers, police, guards, or whether their power is more indirect. I would think the police officers around the nation would be the first to condemn the officers in that video. No, I doubt they actually meant to kill the man, but their total disregard for his humanity is inexcusable and sickening.

That officer was an agent of the government. The difference between him and a good officer is stark. But an agent of government having that much power is, was, and always will be a potentially tragic, evil circumstance as long as human beings are fallen.

I agree the difference between him and a good officer is stark.  But I saw something recently that I think hits at both the root of the problem and the height of the frustration in the black community.  What it said was this:

"If you have 10 bad officers and 1000 good officers, but the 1000 good officers look the other way, or worse, excuse, the 10 bad officers, then you have 1010 bad officers."

I agree.  And finally, I think, with Ahmaud Arbery and now George Floyd, we're seeing more good officers stand up and object to this behavior.  I'm saddened it's too late to prevent the looting and destruction we are seeing now.  I'm saddened that the looting and destruction takes away from the unity this country had in denouncing what those officers did to Floyd (I noted on FB recently I have not seen one person defend his behavior).  Mostly, I'm saddened that too many among us take sides, and knee jerk according to which side they perceive themselves to be on.  This isn't a political issue.  It isn't even a cultural issue.  Every Christian should stand up and denounce such behavior when it is seen, wherever it is seen, and against whomever it is perpetrated.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 31, 2020, 02:48:40 PM
"If you have 10 bad officers and 1000 good officers, but the 1000 good officers look the other way, or worse, excuse, the 10 bad officers, then you have 1010 bad officers."

That's the same problem we have had with abuse in the Church.  The question is not why a small percentage of pastors and priests are abusers, it is why they have been protected by other pastors and priests (including their bishops) from punishment and removal. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 31, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
One lady on the news bemoaned that they burned the only store she had to shop at in the city. She appeared to be an older black woman. This impacts the poor just as it impacts the rich.  Probably the former much more than the latter.  Some of those engaged in looting are just greedy and morally empty opportunists.  But that does not flesh out the entire situation.

No, it doesn't flesh out the entire situation, but it is disheartening to see communities destroyed that were fragile to begin with, especially after so many people worked so hard to build up these communities. Mayor Garcetti of Los Angeles looked beaten at a news conference yesterday. He said it took twenty-two years for the employment situation to recover in the parts of LA effected by the riots after the Rodney King beating. So sad.

Hopefully the opportunists will leave the streets alone now that they've got their new TVs from Target.

The mayor of Atlanta had some excellent comments this weekend.  I echoed them this morning - what happened was an outrage; it was murder.  And those who perpetrated it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  Protests are really not optional - and I'll say in my setting in a 90% non-white congregation. 

I have, and many people I know have, been through the results from active violence and burnout.  It took us years to rebuild - and the primary rebuilding tool was 4000 Nehemiah homes on burned out acreage.  We are not going back to that route.  And the primary victims of that violence are non-white owned businesses and non-white homeowners.  So we're not going there.

At the same time, the Church must be in the streets.  We the bodies of Christ empowered by the Spirit, cannot sit in the sanctuary.  The first thing the 120 did on Pentecost day was to leave the building.  So we must and will find ways to protest, to work for justice, and above all to bring healing to our communities for the sake of Christ, who is our Leader.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 03:08:11 PM
And those of us who might be some distance from the “troubles” must be ready to give aid to those who are in the midst of them. And to let the people who are in the midst of them determine the best way to engage in that struggle. I know a little bit about Brooklyn, but I don’t live or work there, so I’m going to trust Bishop/Pastor Benke And his people to know the best course of action, and if there’s a way I can help them pursue it, I will. And I’ll ask by church to do so too.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: readselerttoo on May 31, 2020, 03:17:13 PM
Same ole same ole...justice seeking justice, injustice seeking justice.

Watts, 1965 and Chicago, 1968


...through the law comes the knowledge of sin....the law brings wrath.




BUT APART FROM LAW...(keep reading the text at Romans 3:21 through the end of the chapter)


The Church has its unique work to do at every moment.


Let's not confuse law with Gospel nor Gospel with law.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on May 31, 2020, 03:17:47 PM
I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.

There are some conservatives who object to policy brutality and broad extension of police powers, but not nearly enough.  Those who claim to be champions of the Bill of Rights out to be the first to object when those basic liberties are violated.  Here is one example:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/)
Thanks for the link. This link is also a decent read: https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/ (https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/).

Americans have to come together in order to defend liberty (and each other) from overweening authority, and this starts with speaking for those who are in the weakest positions. Or else we get police state actions like this — (coarse language warning) https://streamable.com/u2jzoo (https://streamable.com/u2jzoo). If the National Guard acts like this in what looks to be a middle-class residential neighborhood, one wonders just what goes on in poorer, lower-social class areas.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on May 31, 2020, 05:21:05 PM
"If you have 10 bad officers and 1000 good officers, but the 1000 good officers look the other way, or worse, excuse, the 10 bad officers, then you have 1010 bad officers."

That's the same problem we have had with abuse in the Church.  The question is not why a small percentage of pastors and priests are abusers, it is why they have been protected by other pastors and priests (including their bishops) from punishment and removal.


You know some who have been protected by their bishops? In nearly all the cases I'm aware of, the perpetrators of misconduct were disciplined.


However, I know of one case where the bishop moved the pastor to another synod, but when the succeeding pastor learned of the misconduct from some members, she took action. (She was a lawyer in her previous profession, so knew how to properly use the system; but to the dismay of the bishop.) The misconduct came to light, which also allowed some other victims to come forward.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 31, 2020, 06:01:20 PM
It has been said that those of us with white privilege should not say that the response of of the black community is excessive to this outrage. Thus we should not say that they should not express their rage in riots and looting. I have two problems with that. One, the rioting and looting damages the Black community and neighborhoods far more than it does the white areas that are their oppressors. Secondly, Ivery much doubt that the rioting and looting is instigated by the Black community as a whole but by criminals and outside agitators. Outrage in the Black community and protests and demonstrations fully justified.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on May 31, 2020, 06:02:37 PM
As I watch all this, I find myself thinking about a question I have asked many times in my life:

Where is God right now?

He was there when He created human beings and placed our first parents in a perfect garden. He was there when we all rebelled in Adam and Eve and chose darkness and death over His gift of light and life. He was there in every moment of our history as our human race brought hate and destruction to ourselves and to His creation.

He was there in the womb of the Blessed Virgin joining Himself to His broken creation. He was there in the His own suffering and death of the Cross. He was there as He shed His own Blood for every vicious sin of every man and woman from Eden to the last day. But He was also there when the disciples saw Him risen and living and dispelling all the power of sin, death and hell.

So, where is God right now?

He is there even as this generation of sin-sick, broken humanity continue our rebellion against Him. He is there as those He created to love Him instead turn to hate and violence. He is there when the ugliness of our souls reveals itself as a police officer murders a handcuffed and helpless African American, George Floyd, and as other sworn officers of the law watch. He is there as anger boils over and peaceful protestors are consumed by the destructive intent of rioters and the police respond to that violence with more violence.

God is always there. But the question we need to ask is “Where have we been as the people of God?’ The government is established by God but the government cannot actually change anything. Human beings are infested with the sin of Adam and Eve – every one of us. The government can only regulate the outward manifestations of our sin. The Church, and only the Church, has the answer to sin: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. His Word. His Sacraments. His love. His forgiveness. His healing.

When I see the ugliness on my TV, I see my own failure as a servant of the Risen Savior. I see the failure of my brothers and sisters in the Faith. We have been silent and accepted the relegation of Christianity to a private matter that cannot be heard in the public square.

But, also when I see that this is a moment for the Church, and especially for me, to repent of my silence, stand for the dignity of all human beings and most importantly to proclaim Jesus to my fellow sinners. We have the only thing that can change human beings – the Gospel. It is time to get out of our Church buildings and onto the streets.

Yes, God is today in the reopened Church buildings. There His work takes place. But His work also takes place on the streets of our cities and towns. I do not want my eyes to be blinded to His presence.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on May 31, 2020, 06:48:45 PM
In my own devotions, I have been reading (for the second time) an anthology of writings by John Henry Newman entitled The Rule of Our Warfare. I happened to turn this morning to this:

Always since the first, Christians have been looking out for the Christ in the signs of the natural and moral world. If they have been poor and uneducated, strange sights in the sky, or tremblings of the ground, storms, failure of harvest, or disease, or anything monstrous and unnatural, has made them think that He was at hand. If they were in a way to take a view of the social and political world, then the troubles of states--wars, revolutions, and the like,--have been additional circumstances which served to impress them, and kept their hearts awake for Christ. . . . We may be wrong in the particulars we rest upon, and may show our ignorance in doing so but there is nothing ridiculous or contemptible in our ignorance, and there is much that is religious in our watching. It is better to be wrong in our watching, than not to watch at all. . . .

How then, it may be asked, can this world have upon it tokens of his presence, or bring us near to Him? Yet certainly so it is, that in spite of the world's evil, after all, He is in it and speaks through it, though not loudly. When He came in the flesh 'He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew him not.' . . . So it is now. He is still here; He still whispers to us, He still makes signs to us. But His voice is so low, and the world's din is so loud, and His signs are so covert, and the world is so restless, that it is difficult to determine when He addresses us, and what He says. . . . All this being so, and the vastness and mystery of the world being borne in upon us, we may well begin to think that there is nothing here below, but, for what we know has a connection with everything else; the most distant events may yet be united, the meanest and highest may be parts of one; and God may be teaching us and offering us knowledge of His ways, if we will but open our eyes, in all the ordinary matters of the day.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: mj4 on May 31, 2020, 06:55:43 PM
The mayor of Atlanta had some excellent comments this weekend.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/30/keisha-lance-bottoms-full-address-atlanta-protests-vpx.wgcl (https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/30/keisha-lance-bottoms-full-address-atlanta-protests-vpx.wgcl)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on May 31, 2020, 07:20:50 PM
When He came in the flesh 'He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew him not.' . . . So it is now. He is still here; He still whispers to us, He still makes signs to us. But His voice is so low, and the world's din is so loud, and His signs are so covert, and the world is so restless, that it is difficult to determine when He addresses us, and what He says.

Wow. Thank you for the Newman citation.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: DCharlton on May 31, 2020, 07:25:40 PM
"If you have 10 bad officers and 1000 good officers, but the 1000 good officers look the other way, or worse, excuse, the 10 bad officers, then you have 1010 bad officers."

That's the same problem we have had with abuse in the Church.  The question is not why a small percentage of pastors and priests are abusers, it is why they have been protected by other pastors and priests (including their bishops) from punishment and removal.

You know some who have been protected by their bishops? In nearly all the cases I'm aware of, the perpetrators of misconduct were disciplined.

However, I know of one case where the bishop moved the pastor to another synod, but when the succeeding pastor learned of the misconduct from some members, she took action. (She was a lawyer in her previous profession, so knew how to properly use the system; but to the dismay of the bishop.) The misconduct came to light, which also allowed some other victims to come forward.

I am glad to say that I do not personally know anyone who has been protected by their bishop.  But we all know that there has been a culture of coverup and enabling in both Protestant and Catholic churches. Think of Bill Hybels and Cardinal McCarrick as two recent examples.  That's the reason that boundaries training and sexual abuse prevention and response are so high on the agenda in the ELCA and other denominations.  We know that we have to be diligent about it and that we still have a way to go.

The point I'm making is that we know what it is like to be in an office where status and power can be and is abused.   We know how abuse can diminish the trust and respect of the whole office.  We know that it is our responsibility to work to eliminate abuse from the system.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 31, 2020, 07:40:15 PM
As I watch all this, I find myself thinking about a question I have asked many times in my life:

Where is God right now?

He was there when He created human beings and placed our first parents in a perfect garden. He was there when we all rebelled in Adam and Eve and chose darkness and death over His gift of light and life. He was there in every moment of our history as our human race brought hate and destruction to ourselves and to His creation.

He was there in the womb of the Blessed Virgin joining Himself to His broken creation. He was there in the His own suffering and death of the Cross. He was there as He shed His own Blood for every vicious sin of every man and woman from Eden to the last day. But He was also there when the disciples saw Him risen and living and dispelling all the power of sin, death and hell.

So, where is God right now?

He is there even as this generation of sin-sick, broken humanity continue our rebellion against Him. He is there as those He created to love Him instead turn to hate and violence. He is there when the ugliness of our souls reveals itself as a police officer murders a handcuffed and helpless African American, George Floyd, and as other sworn officers of the law watch. He is there as anger boils over and peaceful protestors are consumed by the destructive intent of rioters and the police respond to that violence with more violence.

God is always there. But the question we need to ask is “Where have we been as the people of God?’ The government is established by God but the government cannot actually change anything. Human beings are infested with the sin of Adam and Eve – every one of us. The government can only regulate the outward manifestations of our sin. The Church, and only the Church, has the answer to sin: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. His Word. His Sacraments. His love. His forgiveness. His healing.

When I see the ugliness on my TV, I see my own failure as a servant of the Risen Savior. I see the failure of my brothers and sisters in the Faith. We have been silent and accepted the relegation of Christianity to a private matter that cannot be heard in the public square.

But, also when I see that this is a moment for the Church, and especially for me, to repent of my silence, stand for the dignity of all human beings and most importantly to proclaim Jesus to my fellow sinners. We have the only thing that can change human beings – the Gospel. It is time to get out of our Church buildings and onto the streets.

Yes, God is today in the reopened Church buildings. There His work takes place. But His work also takes place on the streets of our cities and towns. I do not want my eyes to be blinded to His presence.

Thanks so much for this, Dan - excellent post and thoughts on the location of the Christian Church!

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on May 31, 2020, 07:43:32 PM
Where is God right now?

Waiting.

God is where He has promised to be.

He is waiting at the Font like the paralytic at the pool; waiting for those who want to arise and walk, reborn by water and the spirit.

He is waiting by the His Icon written on wood and in His living Icon in the person of the Priest; waiting like the father of the prodigal for those who want to confess "I have sinned against Heaven and against You."

He is waiting in the Chalice like the man born blind; waiting for those who want to be enlightened and to "taste and see that the Lord is good."

And the question remains:  Where are the people who seek rebirth, who crave confession, and who hunger and thirst for a righteousness not their own?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 31, 2020, 09:04:15 PM
I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.

There are some conservatives who object to policy brutality and broad extension of police powers, but not nearly enough.  Those who claim to be champions of the Bill of Rights out to be the first to object when those basic liberties are violated.  Here is one example:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/)
Thanks for the link. This link is also a decent read: https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/ (https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/).

Americans have to come together in order to defend liberty (and each other) from overweening authority, and this starts with speaking for those who are in the weakest positions. Or else we get police state actions like this — (coarse language warning) https://streamable.com/u2jzoo (https://streamable.com/u2jzoo). If the National Guard acts like this in what looks to be a middle-class residential neighborhood, one wonders just what goes on in poorer, lower-social class areas.

Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?   That seems to be a leap.  If not an outright accusation of sin.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 31, 2020, 09:14:55 PM
https://sharylattkisson.com/2020/05/watch-additional-camera-views-of-george-floyd-arrest-read-arrest-complaint-against-ex-officer/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 09:28:12 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?  That seems to be a leap.
Me:
No, it’s not.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on May 31, 2020, 09:36:15 PM
Pastor Bohler:
Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?  That seems to be a leap.
Me:
No, it’s not.

Do you have proof, or is it just opinion?  I wonder what those of our members who were in the military think of that.  Dr. Gard?  Rev. Hannah?  Rev. Precup?  Do you think it is a fair accusation?  I have never served in the military, so I would like to hear from those who have.

Oh, by the way, I see I made a grammatical error in my original post: I meant why is it assumed that the National Guard WOULD treat the neighborhoods differently?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on May 31, 2020, 09:57:14 PM
I was not in the National Guard, but I was in the Army Reserves and trained together with National Guardsmen at times. My Lake Station unit had a Gary, Indiana address and included inner city, suburban, and small town people. My guess is that the effort would to protect every neighborhood, but that neighborhoods that welcomed police or National Guard protection would be far better protected than neighborhoods where they were treated as an invading presence. But I don’t know, I can only guess.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on May 31, 2020, 09:58:03 PM
From the Book of Common Prayer (1928):

"Almighty God, who hast given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of thy favour and glad to do thy will. Bless our land with honourable industry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion; from pride and arrogancy, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitudes brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endue with the spirit of wisdom those to whom in thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that, through obedience to thy law, we may show forth thy praise among the nations of the earth. In the time of prosperity, fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in thee to fail; all which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on May 31, 2020, 10:04:27 PM
I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.

There are some conservatives who object to policy brutality and broad extension of police powers, but not nearly enough.  Those who claim to be champions of the Bill of Rights out to be the first to object when those basic liberties are violated.  Here is one example:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/)
Thanks for the link. This link is also a decent read: https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/ (https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/).

Americans have to come together in order to defend liberty (and each other) from overweening authority, and this starts with speaking for those who are in the weakest positions. Or else we get police state actions like this — (coarse language warning) https://streamable.com/u2jzoo (https://streamable.com/u2jzoo). If the National Guard acts like this in what looks to be a middle-class residential neighborhood, one wonders just what goes on in poorer, lower-social class areas.

Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?   That seems to be a leap.  If not an outright accusation of sin.
I'm guessing the "not" isn't supposed to be there. Answer: The leap, if there is one, is at best a bunny hop. It's about circumstances (which I will get to), and the example set by police. There is a clear difference in how police generally approach middle-class vs. lower-class neighborhoods, one that is well-known in our society through news reports and depictions in fictional media, and one would expect that those in the NG have been exposed to those same attitudes, for good or bad.

As for the circumstances, here we have the NG moving through a neighborhood where no one is on the street, people are in their homes or on their porches, and no one is in (or potentially in) their way. They're in circumstances where they can be pretty sure that many, if not most homes have cameras rolling 24/7 (so you'd expect more circumspect behavior), and where there aren't any visible signs of looting / vandalism / violence. It's a threat-poor area, and they're acting like they're in the middle of Baghdad (this is also a good example of why bringing in soldiers to do police work is a bad, bad idea except in the worst situations). If this is how they respond to a far-from-tense situation with placid surroundings, how can we expect them to settle down and groove along once they move into an area where things are on fire, where windows are broken, where looting may be going on? (I'm working from the news reports that the brunt of the damage has been taken by lower-economic-class neighborhoods.) This unit was treating peaceful US citizens in their own homes as the enemy — hmmm....come to think of it, perhaps you're right! Perhaps they wouldn't treat US citizens in different neighborhoods in different ways — maybe they'll just display the same jumpy, undisciplined, paranoid behavior no matter where they are — the possibility of which should scare anyone with a lick of sense. One would hope that our military (and our police) would not regard the citizens of this country, no matter the neighborhood, as the enemy.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on May 31, 2020, 10:09:53 PM
From the Great Ektania (Litany) of every Orthodox Orthros, Divine Liturgy, and Vespers:

Quote
For our country, for the president, and for all in public service, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For this city, and for every city and land, and for the faithful who live in them, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For favorable weather, for an abundance of the fruits of the earth, and for peaceful times, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For those who travel by land, sea, and air, for the sick, the suffering, the captives and for their salvation, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For our deliverance from all affliction, wrath, danger and distress, and from the peril of the coronavirus against us, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on May 31, 2020, 10:12:55 PM
A memory triggered from when I was a kid of 21, in the summer of 1967.  I was working third shift/nights at A. O.Smith, at that time a factory complex employing 10,000 people.  All of my bosses were African-American men.  We were all in the Steelworkers Union, good wages, and I was working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week.  Meaning, I paid my tuition, room and board for the year at the Senior College from those wages. 

I was learning kind of the ways of the city from those men, who were family men.  The south side white guys with whom I worked, not being Baptist, were much more attuned to the drinking life, and went off for a "nightcap" at 7 AM each day.  I just went home to sleep. 

But on a certain summer day at the end of July, we got off work, headed to our cars, and - what? -  tanks were coming down 27th street.  The National Guard had been called in.  Curfew for the whole city.  It was blamed on outside instigators from Detroit and Chicago (which was always the way in Milwaukee - the big city people were trying to control our smaller big city).  Tanks for the memories.

The National Guard presence is distinct in my memory.  I worked from 7 to 7, so could get in to the factory before the curfew and out after it was lifted.  Anyway, being mentored by those African-American men's important to my vocation later to serve in the city.  And later a very, very dedicated priest, Father Groppi, led marches across the great Milwaukee Divide, the Viaduct, from the North Side to the South Side.  For months and months.  Against long odds.  The Lutheran Pastor Joel Ellwanger was with him, from an LCMS congregation named Cross Lutheran on the near North Side.

Milwaukee, unfortunately, is a city still divided along racial lines.  Except for Antetokoumpo, who unites us all.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on May 31, 2020, 10:39:15 PM
Slightly older friend of mine, ex Marine who became a pastor, was in or near Milwaukee. He married my wife’s former College roommate. Visiting there Some months after the wedding, I got to meet both Fr. Groppi and Joe Ellwanger. Inspiring guys.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 01, 2020, 12:54:08 AM
Slightly older friend of mine, ex Marine who became a pastor, was in or near Milwaukee. He married my wife’s former College roommate. Visiting there Some months after the wedding, I got to meet both Fr. Groppi and Joe Ellwanger. Inspiring guys.
Since we are name dropping,  my retired pastor graduated from CSL with Rev Joe Elwanger’s brother .. I was in town and attended the son’s funeral years ago.  Another of his classmates, Richard Ziehr, wrote “The Struggle for Unity: A personal look at the integration of Lutheran churches in the South (https://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Unity-personal-integration-Lutheran/dp/1890683078)” a very interesting book ... worth the read ... Rev Joe was mentioned in that book on a number of occasions. Sorry ... I’ve met the author on occasion ... but don’t carry enough weight to swing a friends and neighbor discount.😷


Back to the issue at hand ... the evening news was laughable ... if only it were not true. Video of protesters running down a downtown highway embankment chocking on a bit of tear gas exclaiming “ I cant believe they would do this to “peaceful” protesters ... peaceful protesters who had been laying down the the main lanes of an interstate highway ... disrupting interstate commerce by stopping traffic.


These “peaceful” protesters have graffitied buildings all over down town, some so vile that the local TV stations apologize they cannot show it on air ... the complicit media deliberately avoiding videoing a crime in progress that could identify the thugs. These thugs think they are peaceful ... yet they damage and deface property ... just because.😢


A friend’s single female coworker is considering a gun for protection ... though I have never owned a gun, maybe it is time to reconsider ... if todays protesters believe graffiti vandalism of innocent peoples property is “peaceful”, perhaps they need to be introduced to the peaceful end of a gun ... don’t worry ... purchasing a gun would leave a paper trail for the head stalker to trail.🤩


Next is word that one of the few small businesses looted last night was a black owned small business ... so we have protesters protesting the death of a black man by looting the small business of a black person. Laughable ... if only it was not true.😶
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on June 01, 2020, 09:03:28 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/us/flint-michigan-protest-police-trnd/index.html.  Along with Episcopal Bishop Curry's words this morning, and with this: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=963042194154057.   Words and deeds of hope.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 09:39:10 AM
Headlines in Minneapolis today:
Relatively few “outside agitators”
Minnesota’s attorney general will take charge of the prosecution of the Former police officer already arrested
Neighbors and others are gathering in the affected neighborhoods to help with the cleanup.
In other news media:
Chaos in the White House. Some advisers want him to speak, others think he should shut up. Meanwhile, all his tweets are directed at those perceived to be his enemies. Picking fights with them. Using inflammatory language.
In some places around the country, television crews and the Print news media are attacked by police, despite their press tags in full view. Minnesota’s governor apologized to the CNN crew who was harassed and the on the air reporter arrested.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 01, 2020, 09:41:49 AM
Joel 1:13-14
13
Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.
14
Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 01, 2020, 09:57:33 AM
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 10:12:44 AM
Had protests here yesterday. Border was closed between Cook County, IL and Lake County, IN, between Calumet City and Hammond and for at least a little while between Lansing and Munster. Many members of the congregation who are police or first responders on either side of the border were called in.

My question is what the protests want. If their demands were met, what would change? When people ludicrously compare these protests to the protests in Michigan against the Governor's excessive Covid-related executive orders, they gloss over very obvious distinctions. First, the protesters of the Covid orders in Michigan had specific demands. They also were protesting against real people who did not agree with their demands and thought the governor's orders should remain in place. And, obviously, they didn't burn anything or steal stuff.

In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 01, 2020, 10:17:38 AM
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA (https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA)

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html (https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html)

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?
Where do these destructive thugs get the idea that 2 wrongs are the answer ... rather than they are simply common criminals when they intentionally destroy public/private property?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 01, 2020, 10:27:33 AM
In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.

Your last sentence has it.  Antifa’ s goal is to create chaos, which, if successful and large enough could bring down our form of government.  I hope it is a pipe dream for them, but they are having enough success in enough widely disparate cities to wonder.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on June 01, 2020, 10:32:13 AM
Pastor Bohler:
Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?  That seems to be a leap.
Me:
No, it’s not.

Do you have proof, or is it just opinion?  I wonder what those of our members who were in the military think of that.  Dr. Gard?  Rev. Hannah?  Rev. Precup?  Do you think it is a fair accusation?  I have never served in the military, so I would like to hear from those who have.

Oh, by the way, I see I made a grammatical error in my original post: I meant why is it assumed that the National Guard WOULD treat the neighborhoods differently?

The National Guard (Army and Air Force) are different than the Reserve components. That distinction is found in who can order them to active duty and for what mission. The Reserves are federal troops under the authority of the elected President as Commander in Chief. The Guard can also be mobilized by the President and function alongside their reserve and Active Duty counterparts. But the Guard can also be mobilized by the Governor of the State and then they come under the command authority of that Governor.

Guard units are highly trained for the mission assigned to the unit. If they are mobilized by the Governor, as the current mobilizations have been, they will be sent to whatever location the elected civilian authority decides. Remember that these are soldiers who are a disciplined force and will be issued rules of engagement by civilian authority. If ordered to a civil disturbance, they will be there to protect lives and property.

I have never been in the National Guard - I was always Navy Reserve and thus always federal, not State. However, I have worked closely with soldiers of the National Guard in Joint Task Forces under federal mobilization. They were nothing short of outstanding and there was no way to distinguish them from the active duty and Reserve soldiers.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 10:35:19 AM
Peter writes:
In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.

I comment:
If you have to ask those questions, Peter, you weren’t listening. And sometimes protests are not for “specific” activities to change things. They exist to point out the horrors that need to be corrected.
Your response as usual fails to take into consideration the feelings, yes feelings, of those who have suffered under the current situation.
I don’t think anyone is engaged in an intellectual or even political effort to change western civilization, except for the racist police brutality part of it that exists in our country.
And yes, some people are in favor of police brutality. I think we hear echoes of it even in this modest forum.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 10:36:55 AM
Headlines in Minneapolis today:
Relatively few “outside agitators”
Minnesota’s attorney general will take charge of the prosecution of the Former police officer already arrested
Neighbors and others are gathering in the affected neighborhoods to help with the cleanup.
In other news media:
Chaos in the White House. Some advisers want him to speak, others think he should shut up. Meanwhile, all his tweets are directed at those perceived to be his enemies. Picking fights with them. Using inflammatory language.
In some places around the country, television crews and the Print news media are attacked by police, despite their press tags in full view. Minnesota’s governor apologized to the CNN crew who was harassed and the on the air reporter arrested.

Other headlines:

Luxury stores looted in overnight protests in NYC as de Blasio says there’s ‘limited protest activity’

"The NYPD avoided scrimmages with thieves and instead focused on clearing the streets, which saw thousands of demonstrators throughout the weekend."

"Small business owners in several metropolitan cities are wondering whether they’ll be able to economically recover after protests in reaction to George Floyd’s death turned violent, and rioters destroyed storefronts and looted goods as the streets devolved into chaos."

"Small business owners fear worst after rioting, looting destroy storefronts during pandemic"


"The owner of Levels clothing store in Minneapolis, Brandy Moore, 41, has been left with just rubble after rioters broke into one of her locations last week to loot the store before setting a fire that spread to several adjacent buildings, USA Today reported."

"Secret Service agents wounded outside White House [50 over the weekend, 14 on Sunday alone] car bombs feared; official says Trump was taken to bunker"

"As authorities clashed with demonstrators for the third straight night, the parish house connected to the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church across the street from the White House was set on fire late Sunday. The parish house contains offices and parlors for gatherings. The basement, which was also torched, is used for childcare during church services, and had recently undergone renovations."

"Son of Minnesota’s attorney general: 'I hereby declare, officially, my support for ANTIFA'"

"Jeremiah Ellison, who is a member of the Minneapolis City Council, noted in the tweet that he believes "white power" terrorists are actually the ones engaging in the looting, arson and other riot activities as violent sects hijack some of the protests against racial inequality and police brutality in the wake of the death of George Floyd last Monday."

"After police faced stinging criticism for heavy-handed tactics deployed during the first night of protests, critics like City Council Member Jeremiah Ellison were among those who expressed disappointment at the department’s failure to maintain public safety late Wednesday.

"We always do this — we create a barrier, put the police out there, put them in a line, put face masks, depersonalize them, make them look as scary as possible and we always get this result, and then we want to point the finger at community members,” Ellison told MPR Thursday."

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 01, 2020, 10:51:07 AM
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?

In the case of St. John's, I'm guessing the ECUSA supports criminal justice reform and the prosecution of those who killed George Floyd.  They are certainly on board with all manner of leftist political aims.  But they are Christians, however tepidly, and so they are marked for destruction with the rest.

You can never cowtow enough to please these folks.  If this doesn't give the ECUSA a spine, I'm honestly not sure what will.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 01, 2020, 10:58:38 AM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 01, 2020, 11:12:08 AM
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police.  They were peaceful, and they were causing no trouble.  I was hauling a load of landscape block in the back of the pickup as we are landscaping around the barn we've been building, and I was impressed and thankful that they were lawful in their protest, and then included a prayer for their message and mission.  I observed them engaging in civil discourse and conversation with a few passersby.  https://www.nptelegraph.com/news/watch-now-demonstrators-call-for-change-at-black-lives-matter-protest-in-north-platte/article_a77e3f24-a37d-11ea-b31f-57b1509ba43f.html

Oh that it were like this around the nation.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 01, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police.  They were peaceful, and they were causing no trouble.  I was hauling a load of landscape block in the back of the pickup as we are landscaping around the barn we've been building, and I was impressed and thankful that they were lawful in their protest, and then included a prayer for their message and mission.  I observed them engaging in civil discourse and conversation with a few passersby.  https://www.nptelegraph.com/news/watch-now-demonstrators-call-for-change-at-black-lives-matter-protest-in-north-platte/article_a77e3f24-a37d-11ea-b31f-57b1509ba43f.html

Oh that it were like this around the nation.

Police joining the peaceful protests is one of the greatest things I've seen come out of this.  I've said a million times that until "good cops" start denouncing "bad cops," we won't see an end to either police brutality or the rage that it elicits in our communities.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that most of the violence and looting is opportunistic and organized rather than the result of black Americans acting out.  I also denounce the soft bigotry of low expectations.  Supporting the message and mission of those peacefully protesting is one of the best things we can do at this time.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: mariemeyer on June 01, 2020, 11:31:57 AM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.


"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

Fr. Slusser:

Thank you for alerting us to this essay.  After reading the reflections I will be passing them on to my children and adult grandchildren.

Your sister in Christ,

Marie Meyer
P.S.  I grew up in the Bronx. My Lutheran parochial school 7th and 8th grade teacher was working on his doctorate in philosophy from Fordham University. He influenced my life in many ways including the decision to become a Lutheran parish deaconess. I subsequently served an LCMS parish in downtown Milwaukee.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 01, 2020, 11:38:13 AM
Police joining the peaceful protests is one of the greatest things I've seen come out of this.  I've said a million times that until "good cops" start denouncing "bad cops," we won't see an end to either police brutality or the rage that it elicits in our communities.

As with any organization that has strong, internal bonds, law enforcement is not immune to the temptation to cover for those who stray from the organization's purpose and ethics.  I believe that law enforcement is truly a First Article gift in the spirit of Romans 13, but they, too, are sinners who must often be called to repentance along with the rest of us. They can inflict unjust violence under the cover of a badge as easily as rioters do so under the cover of a mask.  I have no way of knowing just how systemic internal corruption may be within the ranks of law enforcement nationwide.  I do not want to see "good cops" targeted just because they are "cops."  I want to see law enforcement viewed by the public as a force for good, for their protection.  How the necessary reforms must begin, I'm not sure.  But to do so is necessary if honor and respect are to be restored overall. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 12:35:14 PM
Today’s New York Times (but I will Bet  Certain folks here won’t say this story is skewed and false.)
President Trump lashed out at America’s governors on Monday, warning that they will look like “jerks” if they don’t order protesters arrested and imprisoned.
Speaking on a private conference call, audio of which was obtained by The New York Times,  Mr. Trump began the conversation with an extended, angry diatribe.
“You have to dominate,” he told governors on the call. “If you don’t dominate, you’re wasting your time — they’re going to run over you, you’re going to look like a bunch of jerks.”
The president continued: “You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.”
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.
Alluding to television footage of violence and looting, Mr. Trump called the people committing those acts “scum” and demanded of the governors: “Why aren’t you prosecuting them?” Taking over a call that was supposed to feature Vice President Mike Pence, the president said Minnesota had become “a laughingstock all over the world.”

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 01, 2020, 12:52:50 PM
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police. 

How many Africans are there in Nebraska?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 12:57:01 PM
And were the police protesting?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 01, 2020, 01:50:29 PM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

Thanks, Michael. An excellent essay; penetrating and accurate. It is going to be difficult to correct all the Ms. Coopers of this nation. It is not unlike the challenge of correcting the assumptions of all the pro-choice people. Fr. Massingale is right to couple racism and abortion.

Peace, JOHN

PS:  Many good people (like Fr. Massingale) live in the Bronx.   ;D
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 01, 2020, 01:55:31 PM
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 02:18:45 PM
It will not play out, unless the people in the White House who are only semi-crazed cannot properly inform or convince the president that his suggestion is against the law. Then it will be up to the military to say to him that they are not allowed to do this kind of thing.
And he’ll probably try to fire the generals so he can find one that will do his bidding.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on June 01, 2020, 02:45:16 PM
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN

It would seem that the issue is whether they are under federal or State authority. Federal troops (active and reserve components) are one thing. National Guard is another - if the Guard is mobilized by the President, they become federal troops and subject to the same limitations as active and reserve. However, if they are mobilized by the Governor, they can be used for a wide variety of civil events. When I was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve HQ in New Orleans, we got hit by Katrina. My Marines could do nothing. The Louisiana National Guard was mobilized by the Governor and began to patrol to keep the peace as well as to assist in recovery. Of course, Marines will be Marines and they figured that they could do the job better than the Guard!

I also note that the Army has a large part of its Military Police forces in the National Guard. During my time (as well as before and after my time) at Guantanamo Bay, the guard force was entirely National Guard under Presidential recall. I suppose that these are the best trained soldiers for civil disturbances.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 01, 2020, 03:22:17 PM
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN

It would seem that the issue is whether they are under federal or State authority. Federal troops (active and reserve components) are one thing. National Guard is another - if the Guard is mobilized by the President, they become federal troops and subject to the same limitations as active and reserve. However, if they are mobilized by the Governor, they can be used for a wide variety of civil events. When I was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve HQ in New Orleans, we got hit by Katrina. My Marines could do nothing. The Louisiana National Guard was mobilized by the Governor and began to patrol to keep the peace as well as to assist in recovery. Of course, Marines will be Marines and they figured that they could do the job better than the Guard!

I also note that the Army has a large part of its Military Police forces in the National Guard. During my time (as well as before and after my time) at Guantanamo Bay, the guard force was entirely National Guard under Presidential recall. I suppose that these are the best trained soldiers for civil disturbances.

You are correct, of course. The law (Posse Comitatus) applies only to federal forces and not the Guard under the governor''s command. General Milley is not part of the National Guard so cannot have anything to do with civil law enforcement. Many governors have activated their Guard units and they are working effectively to quell the lawlessness and riots. The governors are correct. The Minnesota governor is already standing down part of his National Guard force.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex-cop-charged-in-george-floyd-death-moved-twice-in-same-day/ar-BB14SlhP?li=BBnb7Kz

"During a press conference Sunday night, Commissioner of Corrections Paul Schnell said that Chauvin has been moved partially due to COVID-19 concerns, especially considering the number of protesters who had already been arrested on Sunday."

And the other reason(s)? Oak Park Height**  is the biggy, the most secure DOC facility in MN. I suspect that they're trying to keep Derek Chauvin alive. For awhile anyway ...

**"Minnesota Correctional Facility – Oak Park Heights is Minnesota's only Level Five maximum security prison. The facility is located near the cities of Bayport and Stillwater. The facility is designed and employed with trained security officers to handle not only Minnesota's high-risk inmates but other states' as well."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 03:50:47 PM
"George Floyd family enlists Dr. Michael Baden to perform second autopsy"

https://www.foxnews.com/us/george-floyd-family-enlists-dr-michael-baden-to-perform-second-autopsy


Attorneys for George Floyd's family released the results of an independent autopsy report Monday showing that Floyd's death was caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/results-of-george-floyd-independent-autopsy-expected-today
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Eileen Smith on June 01, 2020, 03:56:16 PM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

On a personal note thank you for posting this, Father Slusser.  To say that the year 2020 has been disastrous is an understatement.  But for me this murder of an innocent man in such a horrific manner goes beyond anything we've seen.  I read this thread each day, I want to contribute, but not only do I have a lack of wisdom, I have become devoid of emotion.  I am so agitated since this killing that I cannot have trouble focusing on anything.  And yet I have no words.  This essay allowed me to feel and while the feelings are very painful I am relieved. I am relieved to feel pain and relieved to feel anger.  It will be difficult to grow into these feelings as the days progress but it will place me in fervent prayer for George Floyd, his family, and those who suffer injustice.  Thank you.

On a more practical point, it is a time for a president to meet with the nation - come into our homes in a presidential speech rather than a COVID rant.  But that would only be true had we had a president that was not a megalomaniac.  At a time such as this, do we really want to risk having a wild-card 'calm the nation' speech?  Some argue Trump is racist others argue he's not.  I won't take a side except to say that he has allowed racism to proliferate with his words and actions.  Rather than calm I fear he would incite.  A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time. 

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 04:04:51 PM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael
The part you excerpt here strikes me as theologically inept, the result of subtly replacing theological thought with sociological categories, which makes it sound very theologically plausible and thus pernicious; it is operating in an entirely different framework, but co-opting Christian language.

As Solzhenitzyn wrote, the line between good and evil runs right through every human heart. To say that anything sinful like racism exists due to a socio-political arrangement that only benefits white people is simply not to understand the nature sin or evil but to treat is as something curable politically or economically. If that it true then my question is simply this: if people of color were emperor for a day, what would they collectively decree that would solve racism? What laws would change? How would white people stop benefiting from racism (assuming we stipulate that such a proposition is even true)?

I think the real problem with the fiction of racial identity is the expectation of racial solidarity. I have none, and I am repulsed by anyone who thinks I should have some sense of solidarity with white people generally. The idea of anyone being a "race-traitor" is despicable, as though the races were at war with each other or that I somehow owe special loyalty to people with my same skin color. I understand that in a system of formal, legal oppression based on skin color, racial solidarity was a necessary survival mechanism. Minority groups, most notably African-Americans, had to hang together to avoid hanging separately.
But in the absence of formal, legal oppression, the idea of racial solidarity actually perpetuates racism. Racial solidarity means every individual person comes to be seen as the nose of a huge camel in the tent of someone of another race-- take me, take everyone who looks like me, even if they are terrible people. C.S. Lewis describes this in the section on Friendship in the Four Loves-- that mutual suffering creates solidarity that is good, but can become destructive when that group loyalty starts to supersede other, more important loyalties. If police officers must have solidarity with every police officer, even the evil, criminal ones, then people are right to fear every police officer as a force for badness. In that case, the police fraternity or sense of solidarity police officers rightfully have with one another to a certain degree would have become overgrown, out of proportion, and therefore poisonous to the larger society. And it is poisonous for white people and people of color to think of themselves as having solidarity with people with people of the same skin color, even the criminals. That solidarity becomes a force for racism.

The only way toward any lasting resolution is to dissolve racial identity such that skin color comes to matter no more than hair color. That will never happen as long as people are boxed into racial categories. So, in this case: the Floyd case could be seen as an example of a white power structure unjustly killing a black person. It could also be told as an out of control police officer killing a citizen. In either case, a horrible injustice occurred that should outrage all Americans. And both tellings oversimplify the truth. But in broad terms, using the white-on-black narrative ensures that twenty years from now there will still be simmering race hatred out there. After all, every eight year old black kid will be 28 some day with this on his mind. But using the bad cop-on-citizen helps dissolve other solidarities into a unity against agents of injustice generally, meaning twenty years from now racism would be less of a problem. Black and white citizens would have solidarity with each other and with good police officers against those who abuse their power, which is how law and order is supposed to work.

That's why I asked earlier for evidence that race was somehow a motivating factor or involved in the crime rather than this being an instance of police brutality that just happened to involve a white officer and a black suspect. If it can plausibly be told in term of the latter, future generations will be much better off. If we insist on making it about race based on mere assumptions, we're perpetuating those assumptions, and future generations will still be trying to get out from under them.     
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 04:05:54 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 01, 2020, 04:28:50 PM
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it (https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it)
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

On a personal note thank you for posting this, Father Slusser.  To say that the year 2020 has been disastrous is an understatement.  But for me this murder of an innocent man in such a horrific manner goes beyond anything we've seen.  I read this thread each day, I want to contribute, but not only do I have a lack of wisdom, I have become devoid of emotion.  I am so agitated since this killing that I cannot have trouble focusing on anything.  And yet I have no words.  This essay allowed me to feel and while the feelings are very painful I am relieved. I am relieved to feel pain and relieved to feel anger.  It will be difficult to grow into these feelings as the days progress but it will place me in fervent prayer for George Floyd, his family, and those who suffer injustice.  Thank you.

On a more practical point, it is a time for a president to meet with the nation - come into our homes in a presidential speech rather than a COVID rant.  But that would only be true had we had a president that was not a megalomaniac.  At a time such as this, do we really want to risk having a wild-card 'calm the nation' speech?  Some argue Trump is racist others argue he's not.  I won't take a side except to say that he has allowed racism to proliferate with his words and actions.  Rather than calm I fear he would incite.  A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

Do you really think he's in favor of using aggressive force against peaceful protestors?  I listened to the WH press briefing today, and best I can tell, that's not at all what he's calling for.

I'm no Trump fan, and I think I've made that clear, but these days the disclaimer always seems needed.  Having said that, you cannot allow looting and destruction and violence to continue in the streets.  I heard the president say from his own mouth Saturday that he supports peaceful protests and is horrified by what happened to George Floyd.  I also heard him say he thinks (and I think he is right) the violence is being organized apart from the peaceful protests, to use the occasion of peaceful protest to gin up chaos and disorder.  As I see it, the best way to proceed with peaceful protests is to stop the violence so they can proceed unimpeded.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 01, 2020, 04:31:40 PM

     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

The part you excerpt here strikes me as theologically inept, the result of subtly replacing theological thought with sociological categories, which makes it sound very theologically plausible and thus pernicious; it is operating in an entirely different framework, but co-opting Christian language.

The real test of whether Fr. Massingale's words should be dismissed as "theologically inept" is the truth test: are his words true? If they are true, then they're as theologically ept as they need to be.

Peace,
Michael

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 04:57:15 PM

     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

The part you excerpt here strikes me as theologically inept, the result of subtly replacing theological thought with sociological categories, which makes it sound very theologically plausible and thus pernicious; it is operating in an entirely different framework, but co-opting Christian language.

The real test of whether Fr. Massingale's words should be dismissed as "theologically inept" is the truth test: are his words true? If they are true, then they're as theologically ept as they need to be.

Peace,
Michael
Granted, words like “racism” tend to have a variety of technical definitions in various academic settings. But in the most basic terms, I would say the statement is false on the surface of it.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 01, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

The protesters are being taken advantage of by the Antifa rioters, who are piggybacking on legitimate protests, and the seemingly inevitable looting that follows.  Antifa is mostly white (though I have seen video where a white Antifa organizer pays young black men to cause mayhem). As a first approximation, looters empty stores; then it is Antifa who are setting the empty stores and other buildings on fire.

A dark joke that's circulating today: if you want to go to church and not be arrested, dress like a rioter.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 05:08:02 PM
Amen, Fr. Slusser!
“Truth” does not alway conform to theological categories or analysis. The officer should not be convicted of “racism,” but of murder.
And what may or may not provoke or support the evil of racism is a Somewhat separate concern.
It is statistically true that black man, particularly young black men, are more likely to die in police custody than young white men. Heady discussions of “racial identity” won’t do. They detract from facing the reality, dare I say “truth“, of what people are feeling and experiencing.
Darn! There’s that matter of “feeling” and “experience” again! ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 05:17:14 PM
Bemidji had an 8 pm curfew Sat and Sunday night. My office is about a block from the law enforcement center. Sat afternoon there was a protest there with over 1000 participants. I had gone in late afternoon  to retrieve a locked up handgun, turn off the encrypted server, etc in the event of a break in or worse.

I'm glad the City was proactive! After I left the office Sat evening, my friend John said that the authorities found broken boards in a couple of dumpsters behind us, a couple of blocks from LEC, soaked in fuel, and some Molotov cocktails.

As I left, I drove around a bit, and the police presence was amazing. I never knew they had so many suv "squads" in Bemidji and Beltrami County! Also, there were "strangers" on many street corners, dressed in matching "Black Lives Matter" t-shirts, all with earbuds in their ear, just standing and waiting. As I drove past LEC, they were boarding up the windows with plywood.

This is small city Bemidji! It was spooky!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 05:17:45 PM
Amen, Fr. Slusser!
“Truth” does not alway conform to theological categories or analysis. The officer should not be convicted of “racism,” but of murder.
And what may or may not provoke or support the evil of racism is a Somewhat separate concern.
It is statistically true that black man, particularly young black men, are more likely to die in police custody than young white men. Heady discussions of “racial identity” won’t do. They detract from facing the reality, dare I say “truth“, of what people are feeling and experiencing.
Darn! There’s that matter of “feeling” and “experience” again! ::)
Actually, all "Truth" (there go your scare quotes) always by definition conforms to theological analysis, since "Truth" has a Creator. And yes, the officer should be tried (premature to say convicted before the trial, lest we fall prey to mob justice) for murder, not racism. And just because something doesn't put wind into the sails of what people are feeling doesn't mean it doesn't need to be said. Sometimes mass movements and mobs, with genuine experiences and feelings, are nevertheless counter-productive.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 01, 2020, 05:32:37 PM
Bemidji had an 8 pm curfew Sat and Sunday night. My office is about a block from the law enforcement center. Sat afternoon there was a protest there with over 1000 participants. I had gone in late afternoon  to retrieve a locked up handgun, turn off the encrypted server, etc in the event of a break in or worse.

I'm glad the City was proactive! After I left the office Sat evening, my friend John said that the authorities found broken boards in a couple of dumpsters behind us, a couple of blocks from LEC, soaked in fuel, and some Molotov cocktails.

As I left, I drove around a bit, and the police presence was amazing. I never knew they had so many suv "squads" in Bemidji and Beltrami County! Also, there were "strangers" on many street corners, dressed in matching "Black Lives Matter" t-shirts, all with earbuds in their ear, just standing and waiting. As I drove past LEC, they were boarding up the windows with plywood.

This is small city Bemidji! It was spooky!

Sometimes I wish I lived in a more populated area for the sake of certain conveniences.  But right now I'm really happy to be out here in open farm country, quite distant from any large metro area.  I see it played out on my TV, but no sign of any of this unrest around here in this sparsely populated area.  My daughter is a student at CUC, and we had to make a trip to Chicago around the middle of May.  Glad I got in and out and don't have to return until fall.  Also glad that my daughter and son-in-law, who both have jobs connected with the Twin Cities, are working remotely from home. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 01, 2020, 06:08:26 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.


So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: mj4 on June 01, 2020, 06:31:17 PM
A glimmer of hope in a series of otherwise disheartening days...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyezyOrBEXk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyezyOrBEXk)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 01, 2020, 06:58:54 PM
A glimmer of hope in a series of otherwise disheartening days...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyezyOrBEXk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyezyOrBEXk)
Thanks, Mj4.
I'm still finding hope in the video posted last Friday by Pastor Don Kirchner: https://www.facebook.com/ingrid.c.rasmussen/videos/10222939128729650/UzpfSTEwMDAwMDM0NTU0MzA2NDozMjE2NzEyOTExNjgzNTI5/ (https://www.facebook.com/ingrid.c.rasmussen/videos/10222939128729650/UzpfSTEwMDAwMDM0NTU0MzA2NDozMjE2NzEyOTExNjgzNTI5/)


Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on June 01, 2020, 07:25:30 PM
So, the President is considering invoking the Insurrection Act of 1807. The last time, as I recall, was for the Los Angeles riots of 1992.

What does this mean? Federal troops could then be used in domestic situations. They can be Active Duty, Reserve or National Guard.

Kyrie Eleison!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 07:29:16 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 01, 2020, 08:10:19 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.


A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on June 01, 2020, 08:18:59 PM
Bemidji had an 8 pm curfew Sat and Sunday night. My office is about a block from the law enforcement center. Sat afternoon there was a protest there with over 1000 participants. I had gone in late afternoon  to retrieve a locked up handgun, turn off the encrypted server, etc in the event of a break in or worse.

I'm glad the City was proactive! After I left the office Sat evening, my friend John said that the authorities found broken boards in a couple of dumpsters behind us, a couple of blocks from LEC, soaked in fuel, and some Molotov cocktails.

As I left, I drove around a bit, and the police presence was amazing. I never knew they had so many suv "squads" in Bemidji and Beltrami County! Also, there were "strangers" on many street corners, dressed in matching "Black Lives Matter" t-shirts, all with earbuds in their ear, just standing and waiting. As I drove past LEC, they were boarding up the windows with plywood.

This is small city Bemidji! It was spooky!

Sometimes I wish I lived in a more populated area for the sake of certain conveniences.  But right now I'm really happy to be out here in open farm country, quite distant from any large metro area.  I see it played out on my TV, but no sign of any of this unrest around here in this sparsely populated area.  My daughter is a student at CUC, and we had to make a trip to Chicago around the middle of May.  Glad I got in and out and don't have to return until fall.  Also glad that my daughter and son-in-law, who both have jobs connected with the Twin Cities, are working remotely from home.

We are just two miles from the statehouse where protests and rioting are taking place. We hear the pop of countermeasures, hear the emergency vehicles rolling, and smell the smoke of arson lit buildings. But our neighborhood is calm. Whites and African Americans carrying on life together as usual. On Sunday people wondered whether we would have church. We sent out a reassuring email and carried on as usual. My sense is that things are quieting down in Ohio. Thanks be to God.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 08:36:48 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.


A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩
Getting emotional about the unintended death is not a sign of misplaced values. If I killed someone when I wasn’t intending to kill someone, I’d be devastated. That would be a life-changing thing. The chief could be emotional about the situation and what they’re all going through in addition to lamenting the death of someone who wasn’t trying to bring death upon himself and whom nobody was trying to kill (even if the victim was being a fool). To be coolly unemotional about one of your guys killing someone accidentally would be a bad sign.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 08:38:14 PM
Here's how it was handled in our small city over the weekend, Brian. I've heard no cries of "police brutality." Emphasis added.

"Today I am addressing the rumors and misinformation that are engulfing our community surrounding law enforcement’s response to the credible, evidence based threats to the City of Bemidji, its citizens and its businesses that occurred this past weekend. Unfortunately the rumors and misinformation, some shared by public officials, has fueled racial and cultural bias’s that we, as government leaders, have worked so hard to eliminate.

On Friday afternoon we learned that the peaceful protests scheduled to take place at the waterfront were being infiltrated by extremist organizations calling for the “burning Bemidji down” with the threat being concentrated on the downtown area. Very early Saturday morning the Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office, Bemidji Police Department and Bemidji Fire Department put into motion the necessary steps to protect our community from what happened in the metro.

Throughout the day, law enforcement continued to receive threats related to “burning Bemidji down” with threats made directly towards burning down the Beltrami County/Bemidji Police Department law enforcement center. A replication of what took place at the Minneapolis 3rd precinct.

Unfortunately our fears were justified after it was reported to Law enforcement the finding of multiple dumpsters filled with gas accelerants and caches of tools hidden around downtown buildings.

Late in the afternoon the planned peaceful demonstration marched to the law enforcement center and became non-peaceful. Rocks and debris were being thrown at law enforcement center and a police squad car. Law enforcement took immediate action to detain and arrest that subject. The organizers of the peaceful citizen’s march were able to step in, calm and dispersed most of the crowd and stopped any more damage from occurring. Following this escalating event the decision was made to board up all first floor windows of the law enforcement center.

Local law enforcement had called for mutual aid from our law enforcement partners across the state. Some that responded were the elected Sheriff’s and Chiefs of Police of neighboring jurisdictions. Many of the law enforcement officers that responded and patrolled the streets of Bemidji were doing so in dark SUV squad cars. At no time did the Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office or Bemidji Police Department call for private security or citizen’s to assist our law enforcement response as it has been stated on several social media platforms and statements made by government officials.

Unbeknownst to myself or [Bemidji Police] Chief Mastin we learned that some business owners, and citizen’s, including State Representative Matt Grossell had offered to assist and were with local law enforcement officers and a neighboring Sheriff, at a Bemidji Fire Station.

At approximately 9:30 PM, Representative Grossell reached out to me and offered assistance by being “eyes and ears” for law enforcement. Prior to his call, law enforcement had received information that buses of protesters were coming to Bemidji, so when he asked how he could help, I intentionally directed him outside the city limits to watch for buses that may be coming into Bemidji and report his observations to law enforcement...

The intention of law enforcement leadership is to protect the lives, property and rights of all our citizens and that mission was accomplished.

Ernie Beitel, Sheriff
Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.

A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩
Getting emotional about the unintended death is not a sign of misplaced values. If I killed someone when I wasn’t intending to kill someone, I’d be devastated. That would be a life-changing thing. The chief could be emotional about the situation and what they’re all going through in addition to lamenting the death of someone who wasn’t trying to bring death upon himself and whom nobody was trying to kill (even if the victim was being a fool). To be coolly unemotional about one of your guys killing someone accidentally would be a bad sign.

Perhaps I misread, but didn't James say "non-lethal"?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 09:10:09 PM
I misread the original post. My bad. I thought what had been fired as non-lethal bullet had ended up causing a tragic death. Either way, I wouldn’t read too much into the chief’s emotions.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on June 01, 2020, 10:16:56 PM
Tonight we learn on the news that the pastor and leaders of the site of President Trump's elevation of the Bible, St. John's Church, were not only not informed that he was going to the church, but that the pastor stood firmly against his using the church for any reason, stood with her parishioners in solidarity with those protesting peacefully outside, had spent the last days praying and working for peace in the neighborhood, and was absolutely opposed to the dispersal of the protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that the President could make his way over for the two minute elevation of the Bible.

My local church has been the site of various media and civic events, including gun buy-backs, forums on low income housing, crime in the streets, and health care.  Sometimes those events were outside the church building.  Never, never ever, were we not consulted for permission or inclusion in any event with any public agency, from the level of local politicians to US Congressmen and Senators.  Not to have our involvement and permission would have been a deep insult to our faith and to the faithful. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 01, 2020, 10:24:40 PM
The President gets any photo op he wants. It's in the US Constitution, Article II.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
Tonight we learn on the news that the pastor and leaders of the site of President Trump's elevation of the Bible, St. John's Church, were not only not informed that he was going to the church, but that the pastor stood firmly against his using the church for any reason, stood with her parishioners in solidarity with those protesting peacefully outside, had spent the last days praying and working for peace in the neighborhood, and was absolutely opposed to the dispersal of the protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that the President could make his way over for the two minute elevation of the Bible.

My local church has been the site of various media and civic events, including gun buy-backs, forums on low income housing, crime in the streets, and health care.  Sometimes those events were outside the church building.  Never, never ever, were we not consulted for permission or inclusion in any event with any public agency, from the level of local politicians to US Congressmen and Senators.  Not to have our involvement and permission would have been a deep insult to our faith and to the faithful. 

Dave Benke

I don't know where you heard that from, Dave, but I listened to a live interview of Rev Fischer (sp?) Immediately after the visit. He didnt know before hand  that the President was going to walk over there, but he was very appreciative that he did.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 10:33:43 PM
That Trump would want to use a church that didn’t want him there seems dumb. Unless, of course, it is a long-standing tradition for presidents to do that, and the church has always allowed it regardless of the confessed faith or degree of sanctification of the one holding the office, in which case it seems like partisan grandstanding to object now.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 10:41:33 PM
Well, the Episcopal Bishop of Washington wasn't too happy that the president had used a church in her diocese to make a personal, political grandstanding statement. (See below)

The NY Times:
Just after Mr. Trump concluded his speech, military police from the National Guard clad in camouflage and riot shields surged in front of a line of law enforcement officers pushing protesters back from the mouth of Lafayette Square outside the White House.
   Police officers used tear gas and flash grenades to clear out the crowd so Mr. Trump could visit the nearby St. John’s Church, where there had been a parish house basement fire Sunday night. The president stood in front of the boarded up church posing for photographs with a Bible, after the police dispersed peaceful protesters. (CA Note: So the police chased away "peaceful protestors." I thought the president approved of "peaceful protestors". )
   Mr. Trump walked back to the White House after a few minutes.
   The president’s church visit was criticized by Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, who said she was “outraged” that Mr. Trump went to the church “after he threatened to basically rain down military force.”
   “The president used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese, without even asking us, as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus and everything that our church stands for,” she said in an interview.
   Mayor Muriel Bowser of Washington said the federal police officers’ clearing of peaceful protesters was “shameful” and had made the job of city police officers harder.

I comment:
Folks here will not be surprised when I find this a most disgusting, cowardly, insensitive, and abusive act even for this president. The entire week-end he is in hiding, picking fights with various people; then he emerges with militaristic threats, even threats that could not be carried out unless laws were broken. To pick up a Bible for a staged phony visit to a church, a visit that had absolutely nothing to do with faith, church or religion is an abomination.
If more chaos and - pray that it not be true - deaths occur, it will not because protestors broke some windows or threw a rock at a heavily armed and armored police officer. It will be because of the attitudes and actions of the president and those who cheer his words, attitudes reflected in the "arrest all protestors" statements flying around even this modest forum.
Mercy!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 10:50:33 PM
What did he say that was so antithetical to everything the Episcopal church's tradition stands for?

Edit: I found this quote from his remarks outside the church: "I want organizers of this terror to be on notice that you will face severe criminal penalties," he said. "We cannot allow the righteous cries of peaceful protesters to be drowned out by an angry mob," the president added. "The biggest victims of this rioting are peace-loving citizens in our poorest communities."

What a horrible, anti-Christian thing-- the chief executive of the nation's secular government vowing to enforce the nation's secular laws per his oath of office in defense of the peace-loving citizens of the poorest communities at risk in a time of lawlessness. The nerve.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 10:51:58 PM
Your point is...?

I think Rev Fisher (sp?) Is the pastor there. He was appreciative. Who cares what the political hierarchy and you think?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 10:56:52 PM
Oh, give up the nit-picking, Peter, and try hard to recognize the occasional excesses of rhetoric in a time of great tension and strife! Everyone does not employ your cool, calm, unruffled, intellectual, star-gazing musings devoid of real-earth passions and any expression possibly colored by emotion or passion.
Every sentence spoke in a heated time isn't just a collection of words to be unpacked for literalistic authenticity.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 11:00:29 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/calls-for-de-blasio-to-resign-trend-on-twitter-after-defense-of-nypdfbclid=iwar03g6sm-5jwowjfdi6y32fwsdrjxqimr5zsdk8wkpyf4jho2rs-tbhc-xm

Now they're attacking each other.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 11:08:14 PM
Oh, give up the nit-picking, Peter, and try hard to recognize the occasional excesses of rhetoric in a time of great tension and strife! Everyone does not employ your cool, calm, unruffled, intellectual, star-gazing musings devoid of real-earth passions and any expression possibly colored by emotion or passion.
Every sentence spoke in a heated time isn't just a collection of words to be unpacked for literalistic authenticity.
I know. You certainly don't. Your passionate hatred explains much of the verbal excess with which you post. When I have such passions, I try hard not to vent them here. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 11:12:55 PM
For that matter, who cares what you think, Pastor Kirchner?
And for the thousandth time, Peter, it is not hatred, it is disgust and on some days I pity the president.
My words come from my concern for our country. 
Do you think I am the only one who has this assessment of our current situation and those acting as our elected leaders?
Tell me how you see leadership in the actions of our president? Tell me how you see concern for all the people of our land, a search for healing, an understanding of the complexities of our government, a respect for our laws.
Peter contends that what the president says doesn't matter. I think we are seeing that it does.

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 11:20:10 PM
What stands is what the pastor of that church thinks. I heard him. He was appreciative.

I never stated what I think, Charles. I stated facts from the site. Your rabid reactions are disconcerting.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 01, 2020, 11:35:49 PM
For that matter, who cares what you think, Pastor Kirchner?
And for the thousandth time, Peter, it is not hatred, it is disgust and on some days I pity the president.
My words come from my concern for our country. 
Do you think I am the only one who has this assessment of our current situation and those acting as our elected leaders?
Tell me how you see leadership in the actions of our president? Tell me how you see concern for all the people of our land, a search for healing, an understanding of the complexities of our government, a respect for our laws.
Peter contends that what the president says doesn't matter. I think we are seeing that it does.
What he said at the church was completely non-controversial, at least from what I've seen. He stood with the peaceful protesters and against the violent element. He stood with poor communities against those who would trash them. That is his job. I see leadership (in a speaking style I do not appreciate) in the president's insistence that law enforcement enforce the law, which you would think every official would do, but sadly, some don't. I see lack of leadership from leaders pleading with mobs, encouraging mobs, or at the very least excusing mob behavior. The president is able to distinguish point of the protest and those who are making that point from the anarchists, antifa criminals, opportunists, and sundry losers making hay and ruining cities.

As Barack Obama wrote in an article today, "So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it." Nobody who has done those things, and they are legion, is exhibiting leadership. There is so much hemming and hawing, so much public hesitancy to denounce mob violence, that it is important to have a president (of either party) who understands that such mob rioting is inexcusable, period. It must be denounced without caveat, qualification, or hedged bet, just as the killing of Floyd much be so denounced. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 01, 2020, 11:38:33 PM
Federal Protective Service officer killed in Oakland shooting during George Floyd protest identified

https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-killed-in-oakland-protest-identifiedfbclid=iwar05a4zv7ri7w16k17uubhtp0_gtjrl61tgqivmprnfv-17gzxcwzq8pcu

Lost another battle, in order to "win the war"?   :-[
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 01, 2020, 11:48:49 PM
Federal Protective Service officer killed in Oakland shooting during George Floyd protest identified

https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-killed-in-oakland-protest-identifiedfbclid=iwar05a4zv7ri7w16k17uu-bhtp0_gtjrl61tgqivmprnfv-17gzxcwzq8pcu

Lost another battle, in order to "win the war"?   :-[

The Officer was African-American aka "Black"

Does his life "matter?"
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 01, 2020, 11:49:17 PM
All those links you post to Fox News: if I click on them they come up “bad“ and nothing is on the page. I agree with the bad.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 12:02:04 AM
All those links you post to Fox News: if I click on them they come up “bad“ and nothing is on the page. I agree with the bad.

Sorry. Maybe ABC is more palatable. CBS and others didn't post a pic. Wonder why?

https://abc7news.com/george-floyd-protest-oakland-federal-officer-killed-patrick-underwood-in/6221576/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 12:19:22 AM
"Joe Biden said Monday that police -- if facing a threat from a person with "a knife or something" -- should be trained to “shoot ‘em in the leg instead of the heart,” amid five straight days of protest following the death of George Floyd."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-police-training-shoot-em-in-the-leg

The man's senile.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 12:32:47 AM
I agree any “shoot to wound” policy is absurd and obviously wrong on many levels.

I don’t think the security guard’s death is at all equatable to Floyd’s. A bad police officer is worse than ten criminals. A traitor in your midst is worse than ten enemies strayed against you. One judge on the take is worse than many mafia hit men. Apart from any consideration of race, unauthorized killing by one wielding the authority of the state must never be tolerated even a tiny bit. There will always be crime and the need for police, but corrupt or criminal police officers are a greater danger to society than criminals. Thankfully, they are also far more rare.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 12:40:03 AM
I don’t think the security guard’s death is at all equatable to Floyd’s. A bad police officer is worse than ten criminals. A traitor in your midst is worse than ten enemies strayed against you. One judge on the take is worse than many mafia hit men. Apart from any consideration of race, unauthorized killing by one wielding the authority of the state must never be tolerated even a tiny bit. There will always be crime and the need for police, but corrupt or criminal police officers are a greater danger to society than criminals. Thankfully, they are also far more rare.

Huh? What ever are you talking about?

I'm showing a result of the riots. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 02, 2020, 12:48:04 AM

<snipped non linked article>
I comment:
Folks here will not be surprised when I find this a most disgusting, cowardly, insensitive, and abusive act even for this president. The entire week-end he is in hiding, picking fights with various people; then he emerges with militaristic threats, even threats that could not be carried out unless laws were broken. To pick up a Bible for a staged phony visit to a church, a visit that had absolutely nothing to do with faith, church or religion is an abomination.
If more chaos and - pray that it not be true - deaths occur, it will not because protestors broke some windows or threw a rock at a heavily armed and armored police officer. It will be because of the attitudes and actions of the president and those who cheer his words, attitudes reflected in the "arrest all protestors" statements flying around even this modest forum. <Emphasis added>
Mercy!
This has to be one of the most partisan party line screeds of the month! ... followed by an unbelievable hate filled screed. Encouraging, condoning, and excusing deadly violence has got to be one of the nastiest posts to this supposedly Christian forum. 
Attitudes can NEVER be used to justify bodily injury, death or malicious destruction of property ... one would think that is the point of the peaceful protesters.  Attitudes do not kill, maim, vandalize and destroy ... hate filled humans do.

As was mentioned on elsewhere earlier, attitudes such as this will surely re-elect the president .. nevertheless should not be considered acceptable discourse in a civilized society.

Lacking any linked source the scare quoted “arrest all protestors” is false and intentionally misleading.


Two sides to every (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-defends-trump-after-criticism-over-st-johns-photo-op) ... here is a more plausible account ...with valid link (https://mobile.twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1267594880634806279)

Many in the media fell for the calculated & deliberate tactics of professional agitators. They knew the street needed to be cleared before 7pm curfew. But they deliberately stayed to trigger police action & get the story they wanted, that “police attacked peaceful protestors.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 05:31:31 AM
Most people will not know (or care) that there have been more than 100 instances this past week when journalists working as television, print, website and freelance reporters have been targeted by police and pepper-sprayed, clubbed, shot with non-lethal (but often bloody) projectiles, physically assaulted or arrested while covering the protests.
Nothing new about this. But it’s still bad.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 02, 2020, 09:06:14 AM
"Joe Biden said Monday that police -- if facing a threat from a person with "a knife or something" -- should be trained to “shoot ‘em in the leg instead of the heart,” amid five straight days of protest following the death of George Floyd."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-police-training-shoot-em-in-the-leg

The man's senile.

Nah bruh. Joey Hairplugs has been spouting garbage like that for years. This is what happens when you live in a bubble. Most of us I am sure in ate least one of our parishes have had LEOs as parishioners and no why this is a profoundly stupid idea.

My nextdoor neighbor was a cop. He was the one who explained that you never draw your gun unless you intend to pull the trigger. You never pull the trigger unless you intend to hit someone. You never hit someone unless you intend to kill him. Full career with the County PD. Never discharged his weapon in the line of duty.  What we need are more cops like him.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 02, 2020, 09:09:13 AM
Most people will not know (or care) that there have been more than 100 instances this past week when journalists working as television, print, website and freelance reporters have been targeted by police and pepper-sprayed, clubbed, shot with non-lethal (but often bloody) projectiles, physically assaulted or arrested while covering the protests.
Nothing new about this. But it’s still bad.

FWIW- It is noted and I find it abhorrent. Especially when two reporters for the same outlet, in the same area had two different outcomes. One treated with courtesy and respect. The other manhandled and worse. Guess which was the white reporter?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 02, 2020, 09:11:04 AM
Heard this on the news this morning:
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-brooklyn-lawyers-molotov-released-bail-20200602-35zande5jvfypid6b5jnkjdoem-story.html

Molotov-throwing Brooklyn lawyers tried to incite other protesters to toss incendiary devices: feds

Both are licensed lawyers, supposed servants of our community sworn to uphold the law.  One is a Brooklyn community board member. One is a Princeton University grad and alumnus of NYU’s School of law, not exactly a good example of an oppressed member of society.

"In arguing for the two to stay in custody, federal prosecutor Ian Richardson said that Rahman tried to encourage other protesters to get violent with cops....

Rahman’s lawyer, Benjamin Yaster, countered that his client was the caregiver to her aging mother and should be put in home detention. Her mother, who was on the line, told the court how much Rahman does for her as her daughter quietly cried. 'She does groceries. Everything she does for me,' her mother said. 'She is very loving and very caring to everyone in the family.'

Yaster said that even if his client were guilty of the charges, she did not endanger anyone and the case is ultimately about destruction of property."

She didn't endanger anyone?  Attempting to throw an incendiary devise doesn't endanger anyone?

Are these two just random exceptions, or might we believe that this represents something else?


 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 02, 2020, 09:27:46 AM
While tragic when anyone is injured or worse, where is the righteous indignation and screed concerning the death of a law enforcement personnel or the malicious injury or law enforcement officers in including in New York City.
 (http://alpb.org/Forum/Shocking moment New York police officer run over by hit-and-run car 2 hours ago Mail Online)

Whether the national media or our partisan correspondent, far more ink and pixels have been expended on injured thugs and protesters than on injured law enforcement officers.  If black lives really matter, where is the righteous indignation over the useless death of public servants?


Oh yes ... Now another officer struck (https://www.foxnews.com/us/atlanta-police-officer-hit-by-atv-seriously-injured-during-second-night-of-protests) by a vehicle and seriously injured in Atlanta ... but let's focus on the media who walking danger by choice, not vocation.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 02, 2020, 09:45:09 AM
While tragic when anyone is injured or worse, where is the righteous indignation and screed concerning the death of a law enforcement personnel or the malicious injury or law enforcement officers in including in New York City.
 (http://alpb.org/Forum/Shocking moment New York police officer run over by hit-and-run car 2 hours ago Mail Online)

Whether the national media or our partisan correspondent, far more ink and pixels have been expended on injured thugs and protesters than on injured law enforcement officers.  If black lives really matter, where is the righteous indignation over the useless death of public servants?


Oh yes ... Now another officer struck (https://www.foxnews.com/us/atlanta-police-officer-hit-by-atv-seriously-injured-during-second-night-of-protests) by a vehicle and seriously injured in Atlanta ... but let's focus on the media who walking danger by choice, not vocation.

Well, I am sure that Rev. Austin will tell us the it IS the media's vocation to "walk danger".  But, of course, then the obvious retort would be that (like the police being attacked, injured, and killed in the line of duty) is just part of the job and they should suck it up and deal with it.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 02, 2020, 09:47:20 AM
I understand that there are many, many who are peacefully protesting.  I get that.  But there is no denying that there is not only violence in connection with these protests, but massive violent protesting in city after city, from one coast to the other.  At hose testing last night I heard my fire fighters worrying that the violence was moving toward us, now being evidenced in Green Bay, less than an hour and a half away.  It may never reach us, and I doubt it will.  We are too small.  But the concern is there as it spreads throughout our nation in large cities and cities much smaller. 

What is our 'take away' from this?  Do we simply admit that there is accumulated anger and frustration out there and we just need to let it take its course?  Do we expect our law enforcement to protect us in the midst of this, or should they 'stand down' so they don't appear abusive?  We debate whether the military should become involved, but as an average citizen I am honestly concerned about the stability and safety of our nation under spreading violence.  I don't think my concerns are reactionary, or isolated.  I get it when sporadic and localized violence erupts over a local affair.  But I don't get how this is impacting multiple areas throughout the nation with unbelievable acts of violence, theft, and hatred. 

What should be accomplished by all this?  Violence and destruction is simply a byproduct of anarchy if taken to its logical end.  Do we want massive reform within our law enforcement agencies?  Then what is the plan to see this done?  I see signs that tells us that there will be no peace until there is justice.  Yet exactly what is this "justice" supposed to look like so that real peace can be restored? 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 09:48:49 AM
Something that, sadly, I do not see much evidence of on this Forum or in this country.  Have many, or most, abandoned knowledge of their culpability in these problems, abandoned spiritual leadership of their flocks and communities?

Joel 1:13-14
13 Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 02, 2020, 09:53:33 AM
Something that, sadly, I do not see much evidence of on this Forum or in this country.  Have many, or most, abandoned knowledge of their culpability in these problems, abandoned spiritual leadership of their flocks and communities?

Joel 1:13-14
13 Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.

So that we might repent honestly, can you spell out how all of us on this forum are "culpable" in this situation? And how have we "abandoned spiritual leadership of their flocks and communities"?  As a 'spiritual leader' (pastor and chaplain) I see your call for repentance directed toward me.  What have I specifically done or failed to do for which I should repent? 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 09:57:23 AM
We honor first responders because they volunteer to face danger to protect citizens from danger. Every death of a first responder or soldier is a tragedy. But we honor such people because it is not national news when one of them gives their life protecting people. It is national news when one of them becomes the thing the people need protection from.

We say "thank you for your service" because we know that person goes into harm's way. A nurse working overtime in a Covid ICU is serving humanity and we thank her (or him). But every single Covid death is not a national news story. But if a nurse through malice or inexcusable incompetence and disrgard for someone life killed someone by infecting a healthy person with Covid, that death would become a national news story. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 10:02:28 AM
What should be accomplished by all this?  Violence and destruction is simply a byproduct of anarchy if taken to its logical end.  Do we want massive reform within our law enforcement agencies?  Then what is the plan to see this done?  I see signs that tells us that there will be no peace until there is justice.  Yet exactly what is this "justice" supposed to look like so that real peace can be restored?

Law enforcement agencies work under the authority and direction of elected officials in American cities.  The plan to have "massive reform" therefore must include massive reform of those elected to lead those cities. 

Note that the cities with, sadly, the worst violence by law enforcement and the worst violence by anarchists (not legitimate protestors) occurs in cities that have and have had Progressive leadership for decades, and in some cases approaching a century of uninterrupted power.  Other institutions obviously need reform as well - police unions, judicial branch, public infrastructure policies and actions, et.al.

And now we learn of the stockpiling of potential weapons of violence including arson materials, clubs, pallets of paving stones or bricks, pre-positioned to support anarchy.  Four police officers were shot in St. Louis last night when simply standing in line to limit the spread of violence.  The rights of peaceful protestors and peaceful non-protestors have been eliminated by our modern version of blackshirts and brownshirts.

Remember that the violent "law enforcement agencies" of the last century were spawned as private militias pushing the agenda of those who through their violence became the tyrants.  So, today, claims of violent tyrannical law enforcement agencies - under the control of "progressive" city leadership - are met by claims of violent tyrannical private mobs and agents - under the control of whom?

And religious "leadership" has dissipated like fog.   
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 10:06:21 AM
Something that, sadly, I do not see much evidence of on this Forum or in this country.  Have many, or most, abandoned knowledge of their culpability in these problems, abandoned spiritual leadership of their flocks and communities?

Joel 1:13-14
13 Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.

So that we might repent honestly, can you spell out how all of us on this forum are "culpable" in this situation? And how have we "abandoned spiritual leadership of their flocks and communities"?  As a 'spiritual leader' (pastor and chaplain) I see your call for repentance directed toward me.  What have I specifically done or failed to do for which I should repent?

Each of us must search our own hearts for sins of commission and omission with regard to our attitudes and actions toward the least of those among us, toward sectarian.  The call is directed to me, as well.  It takes some painful removing of the beam from my eyes to allow me to see my attitudes and actions that I have self-righteously avoided seeing - or embraced.

Your mileage will vary.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 10:15:07 AM
 Pastor Bohler:
Well, I am sure that Rev. Austin will tell us the it IS the media's vocation to "walk danger".  But, of course, then the obvious retort would be that (like the police being attacked, injured, and killed in the line of duty) is just part of the job and they should suck it up and deal with it.
Me:
Sometimes, yes. But the “danger” should not come from police officers and it should not come when we are standing quietly attempting to gather information. It should not come when we show by our press badges that we are not part of whatever mischief Is going on.
But perhaps I am biased. I have been hit with a club and knocked down, violently pushed, and threatened with arrest while at the scenes of trouble.
The icy stare of a cop when questioned in a peaceful situation isn’t “danger,” but it says something.
And I found  most cops in the suburbs generally friendly, helpful and not hostile. But not always.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 02, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
I understand that there are many, many who are peacefully protesting.  I get that.  But there is no denying that there is not only violence in connection with these protests, but massive violent protesting in city after city, from one coast to the other.  At hose testing last night I heard my fire fighters worrying that the violence was moving toward us, now being evidenced in Green Bay, less than an hour and a half away.  It may never reach us, and I doubt it will.  We are too small.  But the concern is there as it spreads throughout our nation in large cities and cities much smaller. 

What is our 'take away' from this?  Do we simply admit that there is accumulated anger and frustration out there and we just need to let it take its course?

With Antifa in the mix, letting it take its course would be catastrophic.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 02, 2020, 10:20:16 AM
While tragic when anyone is injured or worse, where is the righteous indignation and screed concerning the death of a law enforcement personnel or the malicious injury or law enforcement officers in including in New York City.
 (http://alpb.org/Forum/Shocking moment New York police officer run over by hit-and-run car 2 hours ago Mail Online)

Whether the national media or our partisan correspondent, far more ink and pixels have been expended on injured thugs and protesters than on injured law enforcement officers.  If black lives really matter, where is the righteous indignation over the useless death of public servants?


Oh yes ... Now another officer struck (https://www.foxnews.com/us/atlanta-police-officer-hit-by-atv-seriously-injured-during-second-night-of-protests) by a vehicle and seriously injured in Atlanta ... but let's focus on the media who walking danger by choice, not vocation.

Well, I am sure that Rev. Austin will tell us the it IS the media's vocation to "walk danger".  But, of course, then the obvious retort would be that (like the police being attacked, injured, and killed in the line of duty) is just part of the job and they should suck it up and deal with it.
On well ... in the spirit of full disclosure, which is near and dear to Rev Austin, for most of my life I have questioned media types who willfully endanger themselves to report a story.  My need to know is no excuse for bodily injury or death of media personnel.

Hopefully this prevents further self victimization.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 10:25:57 AM
Pastor Bohler:
Well, I am sure that Rev. Austin will tell us the it IS the media's vocation to "walk danger".  But, of course, then the obvious retort would be that (like the police being attacked, injured, and killed in the line of duty) is just part of the job and they should suck it up and deal with it.
Me:
Sometimes, yes. But the “danger” should not come from police officers and it should not come when we are standing quietly attempting to gather information. It should not come when we show by our press badges that we are not part of whatever mischief Is going on.
But perhaps I am biased. I have been hit with a club and knocked down, violently pushed, and threatened with arrest while at the scenes of trouble.
The icy stare of a cop when questioned in a peaceful situation isn’t “danger,” but it says something.
And I found  most cops in the suburbs generally friendly, helpful and not hostile. But not always.

Rioters attacked a Reuters reporter after questioning why he was there.  His answer was that he wanted to tell their story.  The attack was recorded by a VOA journalist also at the scene.  I wonder if those peaceful protestors also had "icy stares".
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 10:42:42 AM
Is it generally assumed here that all of us are too stupid to realize that an incident of wrongheaded violence on one “side” is as bad as an incident of wrongheaded violence on the “other” side? Because the “they do it too!” mentality is often seen in this modest forum.
I worry a bit that some of us may not see that the incidents of wrongheaded violence more often pertain to one side.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 02, 2020, 10:49:20 AM
Must be those radical Republican mayors and governors running oppressive cities and encouraging police to crack down on and brutalize minorities to keep them in line that set up the death of George Floyd, like the right wing Republican mayor of Minneapolis. Oh, wait, that mayor is from the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor party. What about the Republican mayors of Chicago that has had a number of high profile shootings by police? Oh darn, Chicago has had Democratic mayors for decades. Baltimore, didn't the Republican city administration set that city up for riots and unrest after the Freddie Grey death in 2015? Rats, that city was also run by Democrats. (Interestingly, this year Baltimore has seen mainly peaceful protests after George Floyd,)  ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 02, 2020, 10:55:24 AM
Is it generally assumed here that all of us are too stupid to realize that an incident of wrongheaded violence on one “side” is as bad as an incident of wrongheaded violence on the “other” side? Because the “they do it too!” mentality is often seen in this modest forum.
I worry a bit that some of us may not see that the incidents of wrongheaded violence more often pertain to one side.



How could we have overlooked the mobs of whites rioting, looting, and burning Black neighborhoods over the years!?!


Police brutality continues to be an intractable problem and needs our attention. Does the crime of the murder of George Floyd justify the looting and burning of Black owned and operated businesses, the burning of Black owned and inhabited buildings, during the riots after Floyd's death? Should there be no justice for those killed in these riots because the injustice of Floyd's death justifies those deaths?



Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 11:24:06 AM
Is it generally assumed here that all of us are too stupid to realize that an incident of wrongheaded violence on one “side” is as bad as an incident of wrongheaded violence on the “other” side? Because the “they do it too!” mentality is often seen in this modest forum.
I worry a bit that some of us may not see that the incidents of wrongheaded violence more often pertain to one side.

It's not a "they do it too!" mentality.  It's a correction to your often one-sided and myopic observations.  Your self-justification for an almost always biased opinion or report dilemma is to label everyone "too stupid" or "they do it too".  This differentiates you as a propagandist rather than as a journalist, unless of course you are an advocate of the Walter Duranty School of Journalism.
Of course he received a Pulitzer for his work in Moscow and elsewhere, still proudly displayed by the New York Times.
Where is yours displayed?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 11:27:23 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Does the crime of the murder of George Floyd justify the looting and burning of Black owned and operated businesses, the burning of Black owned and inhabited buildings, during the riots after Floyd's death?
Me:
No, it does not. And it is a bit of an insult that you would even think that some of us thought it did. But, focusing on the property destruction rather than focusing on the issue of police brutality against African-American men will not help the situation.It’s too bad that the property destruction happens no matter who does it. But that can also be a clever distraction from the larger issue.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 11:30:31 AM
The lack of Justice and Dignity:
https://seths.blog/2020/06/justice-and-dignity-too-often-in-short-supply/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 11:37:33 AM
RandyBosch writes:
This differentiates you as a propagandist rather than as a journalist, unless of course you are an advocate of the Walter Duranty School of Journalism. Of course he received a Pulitzer for his work in Moscow and elsewhere, still proudly displayed by the New York Times.
I comment:
The Times Long-ago admitted the flaws in Duranty’s reporting and asked the Pulitzer board to revoke the prize. The Pulitzer board chose not to do so. The Times does not display the award on the wall with its long list of Pulitzer winnings.
It’s really a stretch to drag up something from the early 1930s, which everyone today admits was flawed, as any kind of commentary on the situation that we face in our time.
And for the 64th time, my comments here, unless otherwise noted, are not journalism. They are just other opinions from another bozo on the bus, just like all the other bus bozos here. And on some topics, I dare to contend that the opinions of this humble correspondent are more informed than the opinions of some others. But you can go ahead and disagree with that.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 11:55:27 AM
WaPo has a story today showing the rates of police shootings/deaths per million broken down by race. African-Americans have the highest rate, followed by Hispanics, followed by Whites, followed by Asians. Notably, they don't label Asians as such, but lump them into "other," and they have by far the lowest level of police incidents against them. Why? Because America is racist in favor of Asians? More likely because it wrecks the preferred race narrative.

Notably absent from the chart is any correlating data about how often these subgroups are found to be breaking the law and resisting arrest. To investigate the specific issue of police violence being racist, the data would not need to correlate to number of people per million broken down into racial subcategories, but number of deaths per hostile police interaction broken down by racial subcategories. My guess is the line would even out substantially, meaning law-breaking Whites and Asians subdued by the police with resistance are probably not much safer in police custody than law-breaking African-Americans and Hispanics subdued by the police with resistance. Then the question is why different sub-groups more often respond to police interaction with resistance. This is where the problem are past problems, reputation and assumptions come into the mix. Founded or unfounded, suspicion of the police as dangerous becomes a self-fulfilling expectation. 

Dysfunction breeds dysfunction. My problem with the narrative at work here is that it ensure that future interactions between African-Americans and police will be more likely to feature resistance and the assumption of injustice occurring. That perpetuates the problem. Even stipulating that racism against African-Americans is what started the downward spiral of mistrust, resistance, and enmity with the police, the question now is how to reverse that spiral. If the statistics are ever going to even out, the police will need to move toward color-blindness (even wen the stats suggest taking it into account) and minority will have to move away from a default assumption of racist police motives (even when that assumption might be warranted). Far better to offer a race-blind explanation where there might possibly be racism than to offer a race-based explanation where there might be no racism, at least if the goal is to reverse the spiral and for future generations of African-Americans not to experience what this generation has experienced. Obviously, the correct explanation is best, and if it is racist, it should be unequivocally condemned as such. But I'm talking about the situations where we don't know and there is no real evidence apart from what assumptions we bring into our assessment. Police, press, citizens should all err on the side of colorblindness if we're going to err at all. Do not ever err on the side of finding race aspect to the story where it is unwarranted. It makes things worse.     
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on June 02, 2020, 11:56:28 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Does the crime of the murder of George Floyd justify the looting and burning of Black owned and operated businesses, the burning of Black owned and inhabited buildings, during the riots after Floyd's death?
Me:
No, it does not. And it is a bit of an insult that you would even think that some of us thought it did. But, focusing on the property destruction rather than focusing on the issue of police brutality against African-American men will not help the situation.It’s too bad that the property destruction happens no matter who does it. But that can also be a clever distraction from the larger issue.
Yes, advocating against making things much worse for many more people, which will have generational consequences for the communities and families involved, is such a distraction.  ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 12:00:59 PM
Peter:
My problem with the narrative at work here is that it ensure that future interactions between African-Americans and police will be more likely to feature resistance and the assumption of injustice occurring.
Me:
Unless, it becomes clear that we are working on the problem and moving towards a solution or at least conditions that would ameliorate the present situation.
And BTW, It doesn’t matter whether the larger number of police brutality against African-Americans are technically racist or not. But it does matter that African-Americans are treated differently in the police culture than are whites.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 12:15:28 PM
RandyBosch writes:
This differentiates you as a propagandist rather than as a journalist, unless of course you are an advocate of the Walter Duranty School of Journalism. Of course he received a Pulitzer for his work in Moscow and elsewhere, still proudly displayed by the New York Times.
I comment:
The Times Long-ago admitted the flaws in Duranty’s reporting and asked the Pulitzer board to revoke the prize. The Pulitzer board chose not to do so. The Times does not display the award on the wall with its long list of Pulitzer winnings.
It’s really a stretch to drag up something from the early 1930s, which everyone today admits was flawed, as any kind of commentary on the situation that we face in our time.
And for the 64th time, my comments here, unless otherwise noted, are not journalism. They are just other opinions from another bozo on the bus, just like all the other bus bozos here. And on some topics, I dare to contend that the opinions of this humble correspondent are more informed than the opinions of some others. But you can go ahead and disagree with that.

Thanks for the historical review, and for your honesty.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 12:20:50 PM
Peter:
My problem with the narrative at work here is that it ensure that future interactions between African-Americans and police will be more likely to feature resistance and the assumption of injustice occurring.
Me:
Unless, it becomes clear that we are working on the problem and moving towards a solution or at least conditions that would ameliorate the present situation.
And BTW, It doesn’t matter whether the larger number of police brutality against African-Americans are technically racist or not. But it does matter that African-Americans are treated differently in the police culture than are whites.

In many places, this is clearly true.  Could part of the problem be that some ordinances and laws may still technically be racist?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 12:41:35 PM
Peter:
My problem with the narrative at work here is that it ensure that future interactions between African-Americans and police will be more likely to feature resistance and the assumption of injustice occurring.
Me:
Unless, it becomes clear that we are working on the problem and moving towards a solution or at least conditions that would ameliorate the present situation.
And BTW, It doesn’t matter whether the larger number of police brutality against African-Americans are technically racist or not. But it does matter that African-Americans are treated differently in the police culture than are whites.
Agreed. There is a police culture that quite understandably (if not properly) regards higher crime communities with greater suspicion, defensiveness, and presumption of guilt. And there is an inner city minority community that quite understandably as a result regards the police as enemies rather than allies. The culture stand opposed to each other, and not without reason.

As I said yesterday, in both cases the problem is good and salutary solidarity (police with police, minorities with minorities) becoming poisonous to the culture due to overgrown dimensions. It is hard to speak against your own team. Everyone can rightfully blame the officers for standing there while one of their number committed a flagrant crime. But how many inner city residents refuse to cooperate with police because it would mean going against their friends, neighbors, and relatives? It is hard. The mutual suspicion creates its own justifications over and over.

Last night in Portage (bordering Gary, a high crime minority city, and a border with a reputation for being a race border) my one nephew (future LCMS pastor) took part in a peaceful protest march along with the local LCMS pastor, while another nephew, a Portage police officer (whose pastor and brother were participating) was in full SWAT gear, not visible, but ready. It was tense because tere were rumor that the proteters were going to try to block the main road through town and the police were under orders not to let them. But all ended well, nobody blocked anything, and the speakers and community leaders on both sides made good, solid points and were listened. No violence, looting, etc. The point is that nobody had to pick a side.

Contrast that with what a black Chicago police officer was reporting about the South Side last night, where he was repeated called an oreo, Uncle Tom, etc. by protesters (who were also pelting him with rocks) for being a police officer. He made the same point-- everyone can be for peace and justice without picking a side based on race. But you have to be able to resist the demand for solidarity where such a demand works against rather than for justice and peace.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 12:51:08 PM
Maybe not in ordinances and laws, but maybe in the police procedures.
   What tactics, what methods of restraint, what procedures and equipment are considered appropriate in restraining suspects?  The knee on the neck move was once widely taught at some police academies, but was widely dismissed and supposedly forbidden years ago. The “choke hold”, supposedly to be used in a limited way in limited situations, is another problem. What non-lethal methods of restraint might be at hand?
   Then there is training on when to shoot and when not to shoot. Is it a gun or is it a cell phone? Is it aimed at you? Is the suspect likely to pull the trigger? For what alleged crime is the suspect being sought? Are They running away or standing still? Is a supposedly armed suspect truly a danger to you or someone else? The answer, and sometimes there is not an answer, to all these questions requires training, discernment, and risk.
   Screening those who are sworn in as officers is another situation. Is there something in their personality that might make them trigger-happy? Can it be determined that they hold attitudes that might be dangerous for certain segments of the community? Do they fully understand the risk of being in uniform as a law-enforcement officer? What is the general atmosphere and attitude in the communities they will serve? Do officers understand the communities they patrol, do they know people there, and have a relationship with community leaders?
   We must take serious, energetic, and most importantly of all, visible efforts to deal with these questions.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 01:07:52 PM
And on that other matter:
I just watched again the video of the police in Washington DC, using strong arm tactics, Including tear gas, flash grenades and physical assault against Peaceful protesters to clear what appears to be a sidewalk or street so that the president could walk to that church and hold up a Bible and have his picture taken.
If you don’t find that offensive and disgusting, I don’t know what to say.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
There is a great deal of training, and ongoing training, that addresses all of those issues. Just as children need to be raised to respect the police and cooperate with them. But it is hard. An African-American getting pulled over on a routine traffic stop might feel his heart racing in a way that I wouldn't. No question. But a police officer assigned to a black neighborhood similarly might feel his heart racing in a way one assigned to some residential suburb would not. There is no procedure or policy that will fix those things--there was already plenty of training an policies in place to prevent someone from kneeling on a cuffed guy's neck for eight minutes. It is not the policies or training but the failure to follow them that is the problem. Adding exclamation points to the policies in place doesn't do anything. And anyone can do in training what they might not be able to do in the heat of the moment, which means learning the hard way. The issues come up when the policies and procedures fail, either because of some unforeseen circumstance or because of the human failings of the ones implementing them. Anything that can break the cycle of suspicion and distrust between the black community and the police will improve life for future generations. Anything that perpetuates that cycle makes life worse for future generations. That's why I think the protests have been in some cases counter-productive. By assuming this flagrant disregard for established, practiced procedures was based on racism rather than some more generic evil, the suspicion is inflamed where it didn't have to be.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James_Gale on June 02, 2020, 01:18:48 PM
And on that other matter:
I just watched again the video of the police in Washington DC, using strong arm tactics, Including tear gas, flash grenades and physical assault against Peaceful protesters to clear what appears to be a sidewalk or street so that the president could walk to that church and hold up a Bible and have his picture taken.
If you don’t find that offensive and disgusting, I don’t know what to say.


This story has been debunked.  But carry on with your agenda.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 01:21:01 PM
Everywhere the president walks requires a security sweep. You don't get to ignore it just because you are protesting something. You're forcing that security detail to use force and then blaming them for the lack of peace.

I just found out there is (potentially) a plan for protesters to block I-80/94 at the Indiana/Illinois border at 4:00 today, meaning they'll be about mile from here. They won't be allowed to block the interstate. If there is violence, it will 100% the fault of the protesters and 0% the fault of the people preventing them from blocking the interstate. And if the presidential motorcade were coming through, protesters could move out of the way with violence or without it. It would be up to them, not the security detail.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Weedon on June 02, 2020, 01:34:57 PM
I haven’t read the whole thread. But I’m wondering if folks have seen and thought about Tucker Carlson’s words last night. Mark drew my attention to them, and then a friend sent the video link this a.m.:

https://youtu.be/3n5_D59lSjc

He’s rather unsparing of everyone: including the President and VP.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 02, 2020, 01:37:33 PM
I suppose that here it is Charles who gets to determine what the rest of us should find disgusting and to point out anything as disgusting that he has not so designated is to be insensitive and in favor of police brutality.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 02, 2020, 01:38:57 PM
This story, posted on Facebook, gives a glimpse of what it is like to be Black in America.

Caroline Crockett Brock

I am a 45 year old white woman living in the south, and today was the first time I spoke frankly about racism with a black man.

When Ernest, my appliance repairman, came to the front door, I welcomed him in. As this was his second visit and we’d established a friendly rapport, I asked him how he was feeling in the current national climate. Naturally, he assumed I was talking about the coronavirus, because what white person actually addresses racism head on, in person, in their own home?

When Ernest realized I wanted to know about his experience with racism, he began answering my questions.

What’s it like for you on a day-to-day basis as a black man? Do cops ever give you any trouble?

The answers were illuminating.

Ernest, a middle-aged, friendly, successful business owner, gets pulled over in Myrtle Beach at least 6 times a year. He doesn’t get pulled over for traffic violations, but on the suspicion of him being a suspect in one crime or another. Mind you, he is in uniform, driving in a work van clearly marked with his business on the side. They ask him about the boxes in his car--parts and pieces of appliances. They ask to see his invoices and ask him why there is money and checks in his invoice clipboard. They ask if he’s selling drugs. These cops get angry if he asks for a badge number or pushes back in any way. Every time he is the one who has to explain himself, although they have no real cause to question him.

Ernest used to help folks out after dark with emergencies. Not anymore. He does not work past dinnertime, not because he doesn’t need the business, but because it isn’t safe for him to be out after dark. He says “There’s nothing out there in the world for me past dark”.

Let me say that again. Ernest, a middle aged black man in uniform cannot work past dark in Myrtle Beach in 2020 because it’s not safe for him. He did not say this with any kind of agenda. It was a quiet, matter of fact truth.

A truth that needs to be heard.

When I asked Ernest what ethnic terms he gets offended at, he said that the most offensive term people use is ‘boy’. Ernest has a bachelors in electronics and an associates in HVAC. He is not a ‘boy’, and the term ‘boy’ in the south implies inferiority in station and status. He came to Myrtle Beach and got a job at Hobart. The supervisor repeatedly used the term ‘boy’. Ernest complained. After several complaints Ernest was fired.

Ernest says most white people are a little scared of him, and he’s often put in a position where he has to prove himself, as though he’s not qualified to repair appliances.

After getting a job for 2 years at Sears appliance, Ernest started his own company, one he’s been running for several years. He is the best repairman we’ve had, and has taught me about washer dryers and how to maintain them myself, even helping me with another washer/dryer set and a dishwasher without charging me. I highly recommend his company, Grand Strand Appliance.

I asked Ernest what he thought of “black bike week” in Myrtle Beach, where thousands of black people come with bullet bikes and trash our town. He says it hurts black people in our city, and he disagrees with the NAACP coming in to sue businesses that close on black bike week. He hates working that week.

Ernest doesn’t have hope that racism will change, no matter who the president is. His dad taught him “It’s a white man’s world”, and he’s done his best to live within it. 
When I asked him what I could do, he said, “everyone needs to pray and realize we’re all just one country and one people”.

I am a 45 year old white woman living in the south. I can begin healing our country by talking frankly with African Americans in my world---by LISTENING to their lived experience and speaking up. I can help by actively promoting black owned businesses. That’s what I can do today. Let’s start by listening and lifting up. It’s that simple.

Edit: I asked Ernest if I could take his picture and post our conversation on facebook. He thought it was a great idea. As he left my house an hour later, he looked me in the eye and said, "If you ever march, or have a meeting on this topic, or want to change things in Myrtle Beach, I'll stand with you."

What a great idea. Let's begin standing together.
===
Edit: 1pm EST on 6/1. Ernest just called me and we had one of the sweetest moments, both laughing and crying about the response to this post. He started the conversation by saying, "Caroline, I don't know if I should kill you or kiss you--my phone is ringing off the hook!" 

He doesn't have a FB profile, so he's coming over later so I can help him set one up. He's been absolutely overwhelmed, as have I, with the response. We're going to be sitting down together to read your comments. They mean so much. In addition, the Myrtle Beach city manager has contacted me and I'm getting all of us together to be sure this doesn't happen in our city any longer. THANK YOU WORLD.

Edit 6/2 9am. Just got off the phone with Ernest and the local news. They will be interviewing us today, and it will be on the local news in Myrtle beach tonight. I'll post it on my page later.

This is how we change our country. Normal folks. One town at a time.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 02:28:17 PM
This story, posted on Facebook, gives a glimpse of what it is like to be Black in America.

Caroline Crockett Brock

I am a 45 year old white woman living in the south, and today was the first time I spoke frankly about racism with a black man.

When Ernest, my appliance repairman, came to the front door, I welcomed him in. As this was his second visit and we’d established a friendly rapport, I asked him how he was feeling in the current national climate. Naturally, he assumed I was talking about the coronavirus, because what white person actually addresses racism head on, in person, in their own home?

When Ernest realized I wanted to know about his experience with racism, he began answering my questions.

What’s it like for you on a day-to-day basis as a black man? Do cops ever give you any trouble?

The answers were illuminating.

Ernest, a middle-aged, friendly, successful business owner, gets pulled over in Myrtle Beach at least 6 times a year. He doesn’t get pulled over for traffic violations, but on the suspicion of him being a suspect in one crime or another. Mind you, he is in uniform, driving in a work van clearly marked with his business on the side. They ask him about the boxes in his car--parts and pieces of appliances. They ask to see his invoices and ask him why there is money and checks in his invoice clipboard. They ask if he’s selling drugs. These cops get angry if he asks for a badge number or pushes back in any way. Every time he is the one who has to explain himself, although they have no real cause to question him.

Ernest used to help folks out after dark with emergencies. Not anymore. He does not work past dinnertime, not because he doesn’t need the business, but because it isn’t safe for him to be out after dark. He says “There’s nothing out there in the world for me past dark”.

Let me say that again. Ernest, a middle aged black man in uniform cannot work past dark in Myrtle Beach in 2020 because it’s not safe for him. He did not say this with any kind of agenda. It was a quiet, matter of fact truth.

A truth that needs to be heard.

When I asked Ernest what ethnic terms he gets offended at, he said that the most offensive term people use is ‘boy’. Ernest has a bachelors in electronics and an associates in HVAC. He is not a ‘boy’, and the term ‘boy’ in the south implies inferiority in station and status. He came to Myrtle Beach and got a job at Hobart. The supervisor repeatedly used the term ‘boy’. Ernest complained. After several complaints Ernest was fired.

Ernest says most white people are a little scared of him, and he’s often put in a position where he has to prove himself, as though he’s not qualified to repair appliances.

After getting a job for 2 years at Sears appliance, Ernest started his own company, one he’s been running for several years. He is the best repairman we’ve had, and has taught me about washer dryers and how to maintain them myself, even helping me with another washer/dryer set and a dishwasher without charging me. I highly recommend his company, Grand Strand Appliance.

I asked Ernest what he thought of “black bike week” in Myrtle Beach, where thousands of black people come with bullet bikes and trash our town. He says it hurts black people in our city, and he disagrees with the NAACP coming in to sue businesses that close on black bike week. He hates working that week.

Ernest doesn’t have hope that racism will change, no matter who the president is. His dad taught him “It’s a white man’s world”, and he’s done his best to live within it. 
When I asked him what I could do, he said, “everyone needs to pray and realize we’re all just one country and one people”.

I am a 45 year old white woman living in the south. I can begin healing our country by talking frankly with African Americans in my world---by LISTENING to their lived experience and speaking up. I can help by actively promoting black owned businesses. That’s what I can do today. Let’s start by listening and lifting up. It’s that simple.

Edit: I asked Ernest if I could take his picture and post our conversation on facebook. He thought it was a great idea. As he left my house an hour later, he looked me in the eye and said, "If you ever march, or have a meeting on this topic, or want to change things in Myrtle Beach, I'll stand with you."

What a great idea. Let's begin standing together.
===
Edit: 1pm EST on 6/1. Ernest just called me and we had one of the sweetest moments, both laughing and crying about the response to this post. He started the conversation by saying, "Caroline, I don't know if I should kill you or kiss you--my phone is ringing off the hook!" 

He doesn't have a FB profile, so he's coming over later so I can help him set one up. He's been absolutely overwhelmed, as have I, with the response. We're going to be sitting down together to read your comments. They mean so much. In addition, the Myrtle Beach city manager has contacted me and I'm getting all of us together to be sure this doesn't happen in our city any longer. THANK YOU WORLD.

Edit 6/2 9am. Just got off the phone with Ernest and the local news. They will be interviewing us today, and it will be on the local news in Myrtle beach tonight. I'll post it on my page later.

This is how we change our country. Normal folks. One town at a time.

A powerful lesson about what is too widespread in America - and the world - today.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 02, 2020, 02:29:54 PM
Another powerful story:
https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/police-chief-details-emotional-rescue-amid-richmond-riot
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James_Gale on June 02, 2020, 02:36:43 PM
I haven’t read the whole thread. But I’m wondering if folks have seen and thought about Tucker Carlson’s words last night. Mark drew my attention to them, and then a friend sent the video link this a.m.:

https://youtu.be/3n5_D59lSjc (https://youtu.be/3n5_D59lSjc)

He’s rather unsparing of everyone: including the President and VP.


Carlson strikes me as pretty persuasive here.  Fear of being labeled a racist has caused far too many refuse to decry violence, let alone prevent it.  Tolerating violence will not defeat racism or achieve justice for anyone.  The victims of this violence are disproportionately poor and non-white.  I'm afraid that fear of stigma, perhaps combined with a healthy dollop of virtue signaling, is keeping our leaders from doing their jobs.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:11 PM
James Gale writes:
This story has been debunked.  But carry on with your agenda.
I ask:
Where? The police forcibly cleared the street so the president could walk to that church.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 03:08:00 PM
James Gale writes:
This story has been debunked.  But carry on with your agenda.
I ask:
Where? The police forcibly cleared the street so the president could walk to that church.
The police and/or secret service forcibly clear every street before the president walks down it. Have for years, long before Trump. Most of the time they encounter decent, law-abiding citizens who make way.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 03:14:43 PM
Ben Sasse, as usual, is a voice of wisdom and sanity. The contrast between him and Mayor De Blasio is stark in that regard.

  https://www.nationalreview.com/news/not-the-same-question-de-blasio-says-businesses-churches-to-remain-closed-even-as-demonstrators-flout-lockdowns/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking&utm_campaign=newstrack&utm_term=20502157
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 03:32:38 PM
https://www.jpost.com/international/iran-russia-china-turkey-celebrate-collapse-of-us-630051

What people like De Blasio end up causing oversees.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 02, 2020, 03:34:37 PM
James Gale writes:
This story has been debunked.  But carry on with your agenda.
I ask:
Where? The police forcibly cleared the street so the president could walk to that church.
Curfew time was drawing near ... these ‘peaceful’ ‘law abiding’ citizens were being encouraged to comply with curfew restrictions.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Staneck on June 02, 2020, 03:52:14 PM
Regarding NYC and closed churches. Many congregations, like ours, remain closed for the sake of our neighbor (and also in deference to the vulnerability of a majority of our members). We closed before NY Pause was announced and we intend to be incredibly cautious even when indoor gathering restrictions are lifted.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 04:09:00 PM
Regarding NYC and closed churches. Many congregations, like ours, remain closed for the sake of our neighbor (and also in deference to the vulnerability of a majority of our members). We closed before NY Pause was announced and we intend to be incredibly cautious even when indoor gathering restrictions are lifted.

M. Staneck
But again, it is a question of what is allowed. To tolerate looters because of the meaningfulness if the day while disallowing church services is, well, de Blasio-esque.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 05:01:18 PM
And on that other matter:
I just watched again the video of the police in Washington DC, using strong arm tactics, Including tear gas ...

THAT’S what’s been debunked. What you say you “watched again” didn’t happen, Charles. Stop spreading untruths.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on June 02, 2020, 05:30:10 PM
I'm wondering whether any of our little active forum participant coterie here are marching in legal/legitimate protest against what happened to George Floyd.  I know that some of our Missouri Synod Atlantic District pastors are indeed marching today.  I would imagine ELCA pastors and leaders are marching in the Twin Cities.  Don't know whether any Missouri Synod folks in that part of the world are out and marching. 

I have been given pretty strict instructions due to my age and the corona virus to stay out of the marches to date.  There's one going on right now in our church zip code, which is a pretty tough part of town, heading to the 75th police precinct.  I was to offer prayers there the other day, but things have gotten into a very different mode since then. 

Anyway, my heart and prayers are with the lawful protesters, and particularly today with the Atlantic District leaders and pastors who are out and marching.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 05:58:47 PM
I'm wondering whether any of our little active forum participant coterie here are marching in legal/legitimate protest against what happened to George Floyd.  I know that some of our Missouri Synod Atlantic District pastors are indeed marching today.  I would imagine ELCA pastors and leaders are marching in the Twin Cities.  Don't know whether any Missouri Synod folks in that part of the world are out and marching. 

I have been given pretty strict instructions due to my age and the corona virus to stay out of the marches to date.  There's one going on right now in our church zip code, which is a pretty tough part of town, heading to the 75th police precinct.  I was to offer prayers there the other day, but things have gotten into a very different mode since then. 

Anyway, my heart and prayers are with the lawful protesters, and particularly today with the Atlantic District leaders and pastors who are out and marching.

Dave Benke
I don’t think there are any protests about what happened to Floyd. Everyone is on the same side of that. A guy committed murder and was charged with murder. But I would have gone yesterday to the one in Portage but I had a meeting during it. But the LCMS was represented. I won’t go to the one here today, which if clues from my driveway right now are any indication promises to be a much more sireny, helicoptery affair than the Portage one was.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 06:07:38 PM
I might have gone Except for the same reasons that kept Dave at home
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on June 02, 2020, 06:11:19 PM
I'm wondering whether any of our little active forum participant coterie here are marching in legal/legitimate protest against what happened to George Floyd.  I know that some of our Missouri Synod Atlantic District pastors are indeed marching today.  I would imagine ELCA pastors and leaders are marching in the Twin Cities.  Don't know whether any Missouri Synod folks in that part of the world are out and marching. 

I have been given pretty strict instructions due to my age and the corona virus to stay out of the marches to date.  There's one going on right now in our church zip code, which is a pretty tough part of town, heading to the 75th police precinct.  I was to offer prayers there the other day, but things have gotten into a very different mode since then. 

Anyway, my heart and prayers are with the lawful protesters, and particularly today with the Atlantic District leaders and pastors who are out and marching.

Dave Benke
I don’t think there are any protests about what happened to Floyd. Everyone is on the same side of that. A guy committed murder and was charged with murder. But I would have gone yesterday to the one in Portage but I had a meeting during it. But the LCMS was represented. I won’t go to the one here today, which if clues from my driveway right now are any indication promises to be a much more sireny, helicoptery affair than the Portage one was.

Fair enough - the 11208 march, which is going on right now, began from the far south and east of the zip code.  So black and brown from the south, and Bengali from the east, where I would have joined with the imams if I had gone.  It's a different march in a 95% non-white zip, for me just the proxmity and non-wearing of masks.  Prayers for all lawful marchers and the message of justice and healing.

I can't see that far ahead, but I think with an 8 PM curfew, there will be less looting in NYC tonite, and more of those who try it to be arrested - 700 were arrested last night here.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 06:30:57 PM
From the dreaded PJ Media, which notes that virtually none of these things were reported in the mainstream media, but all are on video.

Not sure this will work out but I want to post this list of terror attacks before it’s deleted.

Man stomped and stoned for trying to defend a bar from being looted

https://streamable.com/xkcvkk

Destroying store and beating unarmed woman and her husband

https://streamable.com/rvrwil

Beating and stomping guy on the ground Santa Monica

https://streamable.com/x6ue5x

Restaurant manager beaten and stomped for trying to defend his workplace

https://streamable.com/ila4dh

Stopping, beating and stomping a truck driver while protesters yell to kill him

https://streamable.com/8zk9dq

Protesters attack a media member and then pummel him

https://streamable.com/p4i3jb

Chasing guy and kicking him in the face for defending flag in Portland

https://streamable.com/ky6jyh

Police officer beaten on the streets

https://streamable.com/je4ki5

Car runs over a cop

https://streamable.com/q4nat7

Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire

https://streamable.com/sdjvfa

Throwing fireworks at the cops

https://streamable.com/7sv4a9

Looting a FedEx truck then looter gets dragged when truck tries to escape

https://streamable.com/n1azx3

Chasing and beating guy with red had

https://streamable.com/rcsmi0

Rioter sets himself on fire while trying to set a building on fire

https://streamable.com/w5wa8l

Fireworks thrown into CNN hq / Police officers

https://streamable.com/7dw6g7

Protester runs over the cops with an SUV

https://streamable.com/ttijvn

Destroying/looting/setting on fire Old Navy

https://streamable.com/oceqqg

Guardhouse in front of WH set on fire

https://streamable.com/vfopia

Dozens of cars destroyed/torched near CNN hq – Atlanta

https://streamable.com/ubjohz

St Louis neighborhood on fire

https://streamable.com/8lnd7v

Building on fire while self-proclaimed Mexicans say fuck white people

https://streamable.com/yvkek4

Destroying police SUV

https://streamable.com/2b7fic

Near a torched car audio speakers propaganda that all crime is legal

https://streamable.com/t76kdn

Destroying/looting bank in Montreal

https://streamable.com/3hwkx2

Pharmacy destroyed/looted in Dallas

https://streamable.com/fl7e5z

The remains of whole neighborhood destroyed

https://streamable.com/dtptr1

Destroying stores – Dallas

https://streamable.com/hn1qng

Destroying police SUV – Austin

https://streamable.com/v8zk1e

Police SUV torched LA

https://streamable.com/61mdlo

Looting target/beating disabled person in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/oyjgbk

Future apartment building destroyed with fire in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/dxmc0w

Looting pharmacy – Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/53nl1p

Destroying business in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/5lm779

More businesses on fire in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/f1zcmy

Ransacked Target Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/b3u92p

Building burning in neighborhood Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/vh5nyu

Boy drove car into a store

https://streamable.com/nrm2pn

Post office looted/destroyed

https://streamable.com/v4vflf

Minneapolis third police precinct set on fire

https://streamable.com/o27w75

More buildings on fire Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/8au2lf

Autoparts Store getting destroyed/looted

https://streamable.com/dum1r8

Autozone on fire

https://streamable.com/vq9hrp

Looting in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/jfor5g

Adults loot with their children

https://streamable.com/m4cr5j

Cars torched – Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/mmk9gr

Looting an ATM in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/ht2oxv

Remains of destroyed/looted Cub Foods

https://streamable.com/qhzlm7

Business and stores on fire in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/jcpdvv

Brenda Lenton’s home and belongings destroyed by a fire – Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/3s9l17

Aftermath of whole neighborhood being set on fire in Minneapolis

https://streamable.com/eat2c0

Nashville city hall set on fire while rioters cheer

https://streamable.com/b3y0ep

Fox reporters chased out with projectiles thrown at them near White House

https://streamable.com/1qzyua

Attacking drivers Tulsa, Okla

https://streamable.com/ixpxh9

Setting St. John’s Church on fire

https://streamable.com/u3y4ch

Destroying/looting stores Montreal

https://streamable.com/92h4rr

Destroying/looting store in Downtown Oakland

https://streamable.com/y9s4x9

Bar destroyed/Trying to loot a safe

https://streamable.com/yzprm5

Stolen Bulldozer in Oakland

https://streamable.com/lhf5ze

Two police SUVs torched in Seattle

https://streamable.com/eketpr

Multiple cars torched in Philadelphia

https://streamable.com/13784m

Ohio Statehouse being destroyed

https://streamable.com/k13b3l

Trying to breach Justice Center/central police precinct Portland

https://streamable.com/avcfq0

Destroying/Looting Justice Center Portland

https://streamable.com/1j6fof

Looting small business in Portland

https://streamable.com/bfs08c

Destroying/looting small business Portland

https://streamable.com/adfxxt

Looting Louis Vuitton store

https://streamable.com/f4ysu9

Driving stolen cars into stores – Portland

https://streamable.com/o1w92j

Destroying Chase Bank – Portland

https://streamable.com/o1wtom

Setting Chase Bank on fire – Portland

https://streamable.com/nanakz

Destroying/Looting Apple Store – Portland

https://streamable.com/2wncgk

Looting in St. Paul

https://streamable.com/6fouwt

Looting Shoe Store

https://streamable.com/60v3xh

Looting apple store

https://streamable.com/1wzq39

Looting North Face store – NYC

https://streamable.com/ux7djn

Nike Store being looted – NYC

https://streamable.com/6sdcb3

Looting in Union Square – NYC

https://streamable.com/jiz3zd

Looting T-mobile store

https://streamable.com/ag5kwc

Shop owner saves store from looters with a firearm

https://streamable.com/5oj1jl

Business owner defends his store from looters with a firearm

https://streamable.com/pmdjkb
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on June 02, 2020, 07:04:08 PM
<snip>
Thanks, Peter. Terribly appropriate to open your post after reading this: https://ricochet.com/763793/this-is-a-a-communist-rebellion/ (https://ricochet.com/763793/this-is-a-a-communist-rebellion/). I'm leaning toward their being right.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 02, 2020, 07:05:31 PM
Gov. Coumo and Senator Graham both have said in slightly different ways today:

No matter what attention is directed to the looting (very bad indeed), the problem of the homicide of Mr. Floyd remains. We may not want to talk about it but it will not vanish.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on June 02, 2020, 07:17:36 PM
Gov. Coumo and Senator Graham both have said in slightly different ways today:

No matter what attention is directed to the looting (very bad indeed), the problem of the homicide of Mr. Floyd remains. We may not want to talk about it but it will not vanish.

Peace, JOHN
Quite so. Yet while there may be some who seek to make the problem vanish, there are many, many more who are instead trying to use Mr. Floyd and his murder for evil ends.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 07:24:03 PM
Gov. Coumo and Senator Graham both have said in slightly different ways today:

No matter what attention is directed to the looting (very bad indeed), the problem of the homicide of Mr. Floyd remains. We may not want to talk about it but it will not vanish.

Peace, JOHN
Again, there is no evidence that I know of that race had anything to do with the homicide of Floyd. That is 100% assumption. I’d be happy to be shown where I’m wrong on that, but my request for evidence was met with condemnation of the request. The killer has been charged with homicide. That’s what is supposed to  happen when someone gets caught committing homicide. What happens when countless rioters deliberately paralyze the nation is the only open question here, so it, not the Floyd case which is already in the justice system, is the more pertinent topic politicians charged with keeping the peace should be focused on.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 07:27:15 PM
It seems very clear, John.
These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
If one makes a list of 1000 allegedly Criminal acts by protesters, considering that there are tens and tens of thousands of protesters, Doesn’t that mean that the double-vast majority of them are acting properly?
It’s like saying “well, most cops are good guys.” We are supposed to say that, right?
Then why is it that When it comes to the protesters all some want to talk about are the few bad actors?
So what if someone wants to use the situation for “evil ends”? They are not even a significant minority of the people, and they cannot prevail if those of us with proper concerns stay true to our mission.
(But for racists and others, including the law-and-order crowd, they make a good diversion from the real deal.)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 02, 2020, 07:31:36 PM
Gov. Coumo and Senator Graham both have said in slightly different ways today:

No matter what attention is directed to the looting (very bad indeed), the problem of the homicide of Mr. Floyd remains. We may not want to talk about it but it will not vanish.

Peace, JOHN
Again, there is no evidence that I know of that race had anything to do with the homicide of Floyd. That is 100% assumption. I’d be happy to be shown where I’m wrong on that, but my request for evidence was met with condemnation of the request. The killer has been charged with homicide. That’s what is supposed to  happen when someone gets caught committing homicide. What happens when countless rioters deliberately paralyze the nation is the only open question here, so it, not the Floyd case which is already in the justice system, is the more pertinent topic politicians charged with keeping the peace should be focused on.


While hypothetical, many posts have suggested that if it had been a white man charged with exactly the same crime in the same neighborhood and arrested by the same police, he would not have been treated the same, and he would not have died. When I hear the stories of how people of darker skin colors are treated (including darker skinned Latino and Natives), it's hard not to conclude that the color of skin had some bearing on the way he was treated.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 07:33:28 PM
It seems very clear, John.
These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
If one makes a list of 1000 allegedly Criminal acts by protesters, considering that there are tens and tens of thousands of protesters, Doesn’t that mean that the double-vast majority of them are acting properly?
It’s like saying “well, most cops are good guys.” We are supposed to say that, right?
Then why is it that When it comes to the protesters all some want to talk about are the few bad actors?
So what if someone wants to use the situation for “evil ends”? They are not even a significant minority of the people, and they cannot prevail if those of us with proper concerns stay true to our mission.
(But for racists and others, including the law-and-order crowd, they make a good diversion from the real deal.)
Because we’ve done all that can be done concerning the homicide of Floyd. There is no manhunt for the killer, no refusal to prosecute. The system designed to handle homicides is handling a homicide. The system designed to keep the peace is not even trying in some cases.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 02, 2020, 07:38:22 PM
One of the tragedies of these riots is that it threatens to take the attention away from the injustice done to George Floyd and focus upon the injustice done to the many people, many of them minorities, by these riots. Do their lives matter?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Voelker on June 02, 2020, 07:39:49 PM
It seems very clear, John.
These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
If one makes a list of 1000 allegedly Criminal acts by protesters, considering that there are tens and tens of thousands of protesters, Doesn’t that mean that the double-vast majority of them are acting properly?
It’s like saying “well, most cops are good guys.” We are supposed to say that, right?
Then why is it that When it comes to the protesters all some want to talk about are the few bad actors?
So what if someone wants to use the situation for “evil ends”? They are not even a significant minority of the people, and they cannot prevail if those of us with proper concerns stay true to our mission.
(But for racists and others, including the law-and-order crowd, they make a good diversion from the real deal.)
We've got people leaving out stacks of bricks and other riot-friendly material in city after city across the US. There are, caught on video, masked and prepped people who go from building to building, not to loot but to break and perhaps burn, then who move on to the next building, hoping to blaze a merry path of destruction behind them. They are looking to destroy while actively working to drive further wedges between people. Actual protestors (and there are a host of them) are doing a fantastic job of identifying these people and trying to chase them off or grab them to hand over to the police when they get the chance. Your incessant shrieking prevents you from seeing that we have a multi-front situation that is only going to get worse when people are intentionally myopic and willfully blind to what's going on. There are monsters out there, Charles, and they've come out to play — and they don't come from only one direction.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 02, 2020, 07:47:52 PM
It has been pointed out  (https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/05/28/police-shootings-black-americans-disproportionately-affected-infographic/#7656b6ea59f7) that blacks are disproportionately killed by police more than other races. A number of sources are publishing graphs on this, and I'm not inclined to argue with the reported data.  But if it's true (that is, the data is being reported accurately and not skewed), the deeper issue we must wrestle with is the simple question "Why?"  Is there systemic racism within law enforcement?  That would be the quickest conclusion under the circumstances.  But are there other explanations?  Is it that simple?

It seems that many feel there must be greater accountability within law enforcement. Simply firing the officers who were responsible and even convicting them of crimes is one thing. But it doesn't get to the core of why many are protesting and demanding justice. I suspect that some would like to see that accountability taken out of the hands of leaders within law enforcement, feeling that unions and ranking officers are more inclined to give an easier pass to errant cops, or to insist on protections for these people even when there is a record of numerous and serious infractions, as in the case of Derek Chauvin. 

We have been witnessing years, decades, of protests of varying intensity.  This round feels like the worst, and with the involvement of outsiders hijacking the protests with violence and destruction, I am fearful that any number of things may result, the least of which is the hoped for solution.  Right now having law enforcement back off leaves many vulnerable and at the mercy of looters and anarchists.  That is not an option.  Yet, may law makers eventually make that the only choice?  Less law enforcement?  I am frustrated that those who are stoking the fire of insurrection seem to largely evade law enforcement, weaving in and out of crowds, hiding behind the peaceful protestors.  Antifa is a decentralized group that is nigh near impossible to identify and track. We don't know how they are communicating; at least it seems we can't effectively follow their communications.  It is suspected that significant money may be behind some of the anarchists.  In all, there are many unknowns, except that we can reasonably expect more of the same.

I hate to give in to a sense of resignation that nothing ultimately can be done.  That is defeatist. But aside from containing the immediate danger I am continuing to hope that the deeper issues are being addressed by those who have the influence to effect real and lasting change.   

 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: passerby on June 02, 2020, 07:58:48 PM
I'd say Rod Dreher has it about right this time with this pox on both sides article:
 https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-day-donald-trump-lost-the-presidency/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 08:30:33 PM
Floyd’s own family is calling for an end to the pointless riots and looting. I guess they’re letting themselves get distracted from the death of Floyd.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 02, 2020, 09:00:38 PM
As a fire fighter this especially saddens me.  And angers me.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/2/will-smith-va-police-chief-says-rioters-blocked-fi/?fbclid=IwAR1HL0H0mxqEf9qFBRCkbO2zQPX2CkWWHA2uyN1FDfJslUICK34GOPZHtu8
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 02, 2020, 10:18:59 PM
Floyd’s own family is calling for an end to the pointless riots and looting. I guess they’re letting themselves get distracted from the death of Floyd.
Floyd's family has consistently called for peace from the beginning. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "they're letting themselves get distracted."

I haven't heard of anyone here in the Twin Cities calling for riots and looting.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 10:25:21 PM
Floyd’s own family is calling for an end to the pointless riots and looting. I guess they’re letting themselves get distracted from the death of Floyd.
Floyd's family has consistently called for peace from the beginning. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "they're letting themselves get distracted."

This:

These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 02, 2020, 11:05:16 PM
Floyd’s own family is calling for an end to the pointless riots and looting. I guess they’re letting themselves get distracted from the death of Floyd.
Floyd's family has consistently called for peace from the beginning. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "they're letting themselves get distracted."

This:

These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
Got it: Charles Austin was your source.

As for your source for saying that the story that government forces used tear gas in their move to clear a way for the President to cross to St John's Church has been "debunked," I haven't found anything stronger than an unnamed Capitol Park Police spokesman saying that they didn't use tear gas.

The Australian team of journalists that were there say that some government forces did:
Quote
Channel 7 News US correspondent Amelia Brace and cameraman Tim Myers were reporting live on Sunrise on Tuesday morning when police in riot gear moved in to clear the protesters from the area about 6:25pm Monday (local time) before the curfew at 7:00pm.

After the protesters were removed, President Donald Trump emerged from the White House to speak to media in front of a church across the road.

Amid a stampede, footage shows one officer shoving Myers with a shield before punching him while another officer swings at them with a baton as they try to escape. A third officer appears to try to hold his colleagues back and let the journalists go.

>snip<

Brace told Sunrise she and Myers were "not too bad" and the effects from the tear gas were worse.

"We're a bit sore," she said.

"I actually managed to get a rubber bullet to the backside and Tim got one in the back of the neck so we'll have a few bruises tomorrow but we're perfectly safe."

Brace said Myers was a veteran cameraman who had worked in war zones and she felt comfortable being with him.

"There was really no escape at that moment," she said.

"We had the National Guard behind us and those police coming through so quickly, there was nowhere for us to go, so there was really no choice but to hide in that corner hoping they would pass by.

"As you can see in those pictures, they did not."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056)

The film embedded in that article has a good evocation of the chaos, the violence, and the tear gas.

Peace,
Michael

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 02, 2020, 11:09:49 PM
I'd say Rod Dreher has it about right this time with this pox on both sides article:
 https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-day-donald-trump-lost-the-presidency/

Rod Dreher is a skilled writer, but he is extremely emotional. His reaction to events is very extreme from one reaction to another.  You need to read his columns with that in mind.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 11:18:28 PM
Floyd’s own family is calling for an end to the pointless riots and looting. I guess they’re letting themselves get distracted from the death of Floyd.
Floyd's family has consistently called for peace from the beginning. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "they're letting themselves get distracted."

This:

These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.
Got it: Charles Austin was your source.

As for your source for saying that the story that government forces used tear gas in their move to clear a way for the President to cross to St John's Church has been "debunked," I haven't found anything stronger than an unnamed Capitol Park Police spokesman saying that they didn't use tear gas.

I have.

"The head of the U.S. Park Police (USPP) on Tuesday said police used pepper balls to move crowds demonstrating near the White House on Monday night, and took issue with reports that tear gas was used.

Acting USPP Chief Gregory Monahan said in a statement that smoke canisters and pepper balls were used to combat “violent” protesters.

“As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls,” Monahan said.

“No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park,” he said. "

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 11:27:24 PM
A distinction without a difference.
Tear gas or smoke grenades and physical force were used to drive away peaceful protesters so the President could have a Silly, mysteriously meaningless picture in front of a church.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 02, 2020, 11:33:23 PM
A distinction without a difference.
Tear gas or smoke grenades and physical force were used to drive away peaceful protesters so the President could have a Silly, mysteriously meaningless picture in front of a church.
In what sense does that description evoke the term “peaceful” to you? Refusing to move, throwing things at officers, and grabbing at weapons? I guess while singing cumbyah.

But seriously, what would you do if you were in charge of security?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 02, 2020, 11:37:10 PM
A distinction without a difference.
Tear gas or smoke grenades and physical force were used to drive away peaceful protesters so the President could have a Silly, mysteriously meaningless picture in front of a church.

Peaceful?!!

"Acting USPP Chief Gregory Monahan said in a statement that smoke canisters and pepper balls were used to combat “violent” protesters.

“As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls,” Monahan said."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 02, 2020, 11:39:58 PM
From the news accounts:
What ensued was a burst of violence unlike any seen in the shadow of the White House in generations. As he prepared for his surprise march to the church, Mr. Trump first went before cameras in the Rose Garden to declare himself “your president of law and order” but also “an ally of all peaceful protesters,” even as peaceful protesters just a block away and clergy members on the church patio were routed by smoke and flash grenades and some form of chemical spray deployed by shield-bearing riot officers and mounted police.

The whole story:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/us/politics/trump-walk-lafayette-square.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 02, 2020, 11:58:54 PM
I strongly recommend that you watch the Australian TV video of the scene. See where there is violence, look for it. 55 seconds long. I'm not skilled enough to cut it out of the article it's in; sorry.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056)

Peace,
Michael

Next to that story and video I found another.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/george-floyd-protesters-tear-gassed-trump-photo-opportunity/12311628 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/george-floyd-protesters-tear-gassed-trump-photo-opportunity/12311628)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 03, 2020, 12:13:05 AM
From the news accounts:
What ensued was a burst of violence unlike any seen in the shadow of the White House in generations. As he prepared for his surprise march to the church, Mr. Trump first went before cameras in the Rose Garden to declare himself “your president of law and order” but also “an ally of all peaceful protesters,” even as peaceful protesters just a block away and clergy members on the church patio were routed by smoke and flash grenades and some form of chemical spray deployed by shield-bearing riot officers and mounted police.

The whole story:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/us/politics/trump-walk-lafayette-square.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Yup, you know it's an objective, unbiased report when the reporters inserts a catty remark about the cost of his daughter's purse.   ::)

You know, the sad thing is  that they actually spent time researching the cost of that purse just to make the cheap shot! Unless one of them owns the same model of purse. 

Ah, the bizarre twists of TDS.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 12:22:29 AM
What is so hard to understand about the fact that refusing to give way to a federal security detail is not peaceful? Again, Fr. Slusser and Charles, what would you have done if you were in charge of security?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 12:31:42 AM
Why is it catty? It is a Relevant, scene-setting, if somewhat puzzling detail.
Does she always carry a Bible in her purse? What version of the Bible was it? If it’s not hers, where did she get it?
But wait! Isn’t she Jewish? Why is she carrying a Bible? Does her rabbi know about this?
And I am informed by Beloved Spouse that she was carrying it in an absolutely terrific bag.
I’ll bet sales of that bag shoot up tomorrow morning. I wonder if she’s invested in that company?
To quote Dear Little Sally: “meow!”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 03, 2020, 01:02:56 AM

     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

The part you excerpt here strikes me as theologically inept, the result of subtly replacing theological thought with sociological categories, which makes it sound very theologically plausible and thus pernicious; it is operating in an entirely different framework, but co-opting Christian language.

The real test of whether Fr. Massingale's words should be dismissed as "theologically inept" is the truth test: are his words true? If they are true, then they're as theologically ept as they need to be.


His words fail the truth test.  Which is why they should be dismissed.  Regardless of who is saying them.

Christe eleison, Steven+
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 03, 2020, 01:17:09 AM
These hyper-concerns for the violent acts of the protesters (and remember that since there are tens and tens of thousands of them it’s quite likely that there will be a lot of bad actors) simply serve as a distraction from the main issue.

How many police officers are there in the United States?

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 05:07:10 AM
Explain to me the point of the church visit, the awkward holding of the Bible. What is going on there?
Why, outside in the world, did he not speak to any peaceful protesters? Or anyone?
Why not have that path to the church cleared by asking people to leave rather than by using physical  force?
Was that trip necessary? What was it supposed to say or do?

And then this, from the news report:
The spectacle staged by the White House also left military leaders struggling to explain themselves in response to criticism from retired officers that they had allowed themselves to be used as political props. Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, put out word through military officials that they did not know in advance about the dispersal of the protesters or about the president’s planned photo op, insisting that they thought they were accompanying him to review the troops.

And this (hopeful?, maybe):
Even some Republicans were troubled by the event.

And there’s this concerning his visit to the shrine for Pope John Paul II:
And on Tuesday, as Mr. Trump prepared to visit the Saint John Paul II National Shrine, a few miles from St. John’s, Archbishop Wilton Gregory, the Catholic archbishop of Washington, denounced the event in similar terms (as those used by the Episcopal bishop. CA), calling it “baffling and reprehensible.”

And this:
Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska on Tuesday declared himself “against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop.” Gov. Charlie Baker of Massachusetts, often a willing Trump critic, has lamented the president’s “incendiary words.” And Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the capital’s most prominent black Republican, spoke disapprovingly of the decision to violently clear protesters from the area for a presidential photograph.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 03, 2020, 07:53:13 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/sacramento-kings-announcer-out-following-all-lives-matter-tweet

"ALL LIVES MATTER...EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!"

Tone deaf idiot! That'll teach 'im!  ::)

There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 03, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
The news reports this morning are encouraging; rioting and looting is down everywhere. Lots of arrests; 200 in NYC. Soon there might not be anybody left to loot. Then it could subside so that pure protests can be accepted by American citizens. I am struck by the growing size of honest protest crowds.

For the long run, I'm not sure what to do. A start could be this. Law enforcement institutions can be re-structured toward a fairer disciplined treatment of suspects. That might prevent future events like these many recent ones.

Unfortunately it could be that the elimination of racism is as elusive as the elimination of abortion.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 08:18:29 AM
Pastor Kirchner:
There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.
Me:
Yes, because of course everyone who expresses that sentiment is attacked, put down, beat up and driven out of town. That poor barber is such a victim!
Meanwhile, in the last five years 60 percent of the times that Minneapolis police have used physical force against a suspect, that suspect has been black. Given population figures (percentages white or black) this means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.
Can we keep focus on real victims rather that phony-worry about people who aren’t?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Terry W Culler on June 03, 2020, 08:30:06 AM
Pastor Kirchner:
There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.
Me:
Yes, because of course everyone who expresses that sentiment is attacked, put down, beat up and driven out of town. That poor barber is such a victim!
Meanwhile, in the last five years 60 percent of the times that Minneapolis police have used physical force against a suspect, that suspect has been black. Given population figures (percentages white or black) this means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.




Can we keep focus on real victims rather that phony-worry about people who aren’t?


Unfortunately this statistic is not truly helpful, at least in terms of helping us understand police responses to individual actions.  We would need to know what percentage of criminal activity is attributable to each racial group, what percentage of resistance to arrest either by violence or fleeing is attributable to each group.  I knew a young man some years ago who became a police officer.  He quit after a few years because he said that so much of the violent crime in his community was committed by young black men that he was becoming a bigot and he didn't want to be that person. 

We don't have a "police problem" in this country vis-à-vis race but a racial problem caused by a sense of helplessness among people who have seen every possibility of bettering themselves disappearing along with the good jobs that did not require a 4 year degree.  Racial animosity, IMO, exists largely because economic and cultural elites care little for the welfare of the whole community.  Thus we have President Trump as a response to some and riots as a response from others. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: mariemeyer on June 03, 2020, 09:13:43 AM
Why is it catty? It is a Relevant, scene-setting, if somewhat puzzling detail.
Does she always carry a Bible in her purse? What version of the Bible was it? If it’s not hers, where did she get it?
But wait! Isn’t she Jewish? Why is she carrying a Bible? Does her rabbi know about this?
And I am informed by Beloved Spouse that she was carrying it in an absolutely terrific bag.
I’ll bet sales of that bag shoot up tomorrow morning. I wonder if she’s invested in that company?
To quote Dear Little Sally: “meow!”

Telling like it is.  The idea that President Trump walk to the church for a photo with a Bible (Old and New Testament) came from his daughter who,as Charles reports, is of the Jewish faith.

Why this appeal to the Christian faith of Trump supporters?

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 03, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
It will be helpful when the heated rhetoric subsides, the violence abates, and a real dialogue can ensue in this country as to root causes of issues impacting the black community, especially this disproportionate incarceration rate of blacks.  Of course reform is undoubtedly needed within law enforcement. There is no denying that what happened to George Floyd laid bare some deep dysfunctions within some areas of law enforcement that need to be seriously addressed. But there are also longstanding systemic issues within the black community that are largely ignored under the slogan "Black Lives Matter," reducing the value of their lives simply to whether they are injured and killed by police.  When the smoke clears and the cities are again cleaned up and restored, we will still have the systemic problems that contribute to violence within and to the black community.  Unfortunately that discussion cannot happen now.  But the Christian community should be as concerned about that as they are about the violent encounters with law enforcement.

Consider this informed quote from an article by a black author:

Youth gang members are disproportionately male, Black or Hispanic, from single-parent households, and from families living below the poverty level (Pyrooz & Sweeten, 2015). Several other factors are associated with gang membership, such as family conflict or dysfunction, seeking a sense of support and belonging, loyalty and respect, and perceiving a sense of protection (Eitle, Gunkel, & Van Gundy, 2004; Simon, Ritter, & Mehendra, 2013)...The trauma caused by events such as murder leaves people with few choices for meaningful action, as well as a sense of powerlessness to organize defenses against the consequent feelings of overwhelming fear and anxiety (Pinderhughes, 2004). Blacks are at a disadvantage when it comes to access of treatment and quality of care (McGuire & Miranda, 2008). Therefore, providing space to cope with grief could be a powerful intervention...statistics show that from 1940 to 2017, Blacks have accounted for at least 30% of the prison population but have never made up more than 14% of the entire U.S. population. From 1959 to 2017, Blacks have accounted for at least 20% of all people living below the poverty line, and in that same period, Blacks have never made up less than 34% of all people living in poverty who are female householders. From 1972 to 2017 Blacks have never had an unemployment rate of less than 6.8% for any month of the year (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2016; U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2018)...Considering the continuing negative influence of these racial disparities and the anxiety and stress that come along with them (Pinderhughes, 2004), these injustices and the outcomes they have for family systems cannot be ignored. When gang members were asked whether their parents opposed their being in gangs, they mentioned that parents were often too worried about other things, such as finding ways to feed and clothe them, and keep a roof over their heads, to be able to express much concern (Moore, 1991).
https://www.ncfr.org/ncfr-report/winter-2018/preventing-gun-and-gang-violence-black-community

The protests reveal real pain in this community.  But I am afraid that the issues that lie deep underneath that pain will remain largely ignored and we will again try to solve a problem by focusing only on single issues that may not solve the underlying issues long term.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 09:44:49 AM
Why is it catty? It is a Relevant, scene-setting, if somewhat puzzling detail.
Does she always carry a Bible in her purse? What version of the Bible was it? If it’s not hers, where did she get it?
But wait! Isn’t she Jewish? Why is she carrying a Bible? Does her rabbi know about this?
And I am informed by Beloved Spouse that she was carrying it in an absolutely terrific bag.
I’ll bet sales of that bag shoot up tomorrow morning. I wonder if she’s invested in that company?
To quote Dear Little Sally: “meow!”

Telling like it is.  The idea that President Trump walk to the church for a photo with a Bible (Old and New Testament) came from his daughter who,as Charles reports, is of the Jewish faith.

Why this appeal to the Christian faith of Trump supporters?

Marie Meyer
It is a symbolic church, being on the Mall in D.C. and used for various occasions by every president since Madison, and it was partially torched by an anti-American mob. That makes it a perfectly good backdrop for the one whose sworn duty is to protect and defend America to make a speech. It is frankly a tad sickening that you think it relevant that the idea came from a Jewish person. If a Christian member of the president's cabinet suggested that it might be a good idea for the president to make a speech at a synagogue or mosque that had been damaged, what would be wrong with that? Again, the church, on the Mall used by nearly every president of whatever faith, is a good symbol of American culture, which many Jews love, too. And the damage the church suffered was a good symbol of the unrest happening now and how American is under attack from social forces that hate its history. You might disagree with that narrative, but there is plenty of evidence to support it. Recently the Massachusetts AG (that is, her only job is as a law enforcement officer for all the people of the state) said, "Yes, America is burning, but that's how forests grow." In other words, there is a mainstream opinion that the burning down of America is a good thing. And Trump opposes that mainstream opinion; he does not want to burn it down.   

As for why he didn't talk to peaceful protesters, it is mostly because there weren't any to talk to. As to why he didn't talk to the people who were throwing things at his security detail, what good would come of that?

It is such a simple question that all the critics and whiners refuse to answer-- what would you have done if you were in charge of security and the protesters refused to move and began throwing things at your security detail?     
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 09:53:49 AM
Peter writes:
It is such a simple question that all the critics and whiners refuse to answer-- what would you have done if you were in charge of security and the protesters refused to move and began throwing things at your security detail?
I muse:
I might’ve said, “there’s no way you can go there without causing a serious incident that is going to make you look bad. So don’t go there.“
Or I might’ve sent people out to peacefully open a path, without using armored cops and physical force. If we could not do that, back to option one.
And if I were one of his sneaky and conniving advisers, Not at all interested in dealing with the real situation, but only bolstering his ego, I might have said, “great idea! Let’s go kick some protesters ass while we do this! Won’t that be fun! And if we’re lucky, we can provoke them into throwing things at our cops. That would be great too.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 03, 2020, 10:10:10 AM

Why is it catty? It is a Relevant, scene-setting, if somewhat puzzling detail.
Does she always carry a Bible in her purse? What version of the Bible was it? If it’s not hers, where did she get it?
But wait! Isn’t she Jewish? Why is she carrying a Bible? Does her rabbi know about this?
And I am informed by Beloved Spouse that she was carrying it in an absolutely terrific bag.
I’ll bet sales of that bag shoot up tomorrow morning. I wonder if she’s invested in that company?
To quote Dear Little Sally: “meow!”


Telling like it is.  The idea that President Trump walk to the church for a photo with a Bible (Old and New Testament) came from his daughter who,as Charles reports, is of the Jewish faith.

Why this appeal to the Christian faith of Trump supporters?

Marie Meyer
"Charles reports" ... to further the his myopic view of his little bit if the world ... yet cowers at facts such as this. (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7486.msg479692#msg479692)
What "Charles" fails to report (quite deliberately) is that the daughter converted to Judaism at the time of her marriage.
Does Charles and/or own any books professing  thoughts and confession outside their "faith"?  Let's criticize them for that!
Let's face it ..all this post of Charles and Marie is the daily dose of trashing their political opponents while failing to remember that their political party condones and support murder of the unborn.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on June 03, 2020, 10:19:29 AM
Two thoughts-

Thought One: Have any of you been in a police barricade? I have. We were protecting a perimeter of a hotel when President Bush fils visited our town. I saw parishioners on both sides of the barricade; some carrying signs and some carrying invitations to the presidential luncheon. I was the uniformed police chaplain right in the middle of this minor scrap to witness to calm, law and order and peace. Lots of shouting and hate coming from some of the protesters; the cops chanting a calming mantra to themselves, “I’m getting paid and you’re not.”

Thought Two: The wife of President Theodore Roosevelt said that living with that energetic, positive husband was like living with a six year old. Trump has that same energy and, admittedly lack of perspective. But, as with Pastor Speckhard’s observation, President Trump is protective of America as an ideal as well as a reality.

To take up Pastor Austin’s musings, I would observe this option for the walk to Saint Joseph’s (Where I’ve worshiped...): I would have advised the president to walk up to the church, face away from the cameras, hold secret prayers in his heart, kept the Bible low to be seen for those with eyes to see, and walk back home. But the president, having that reckless energy mentioned above, made the moment about God and Country, law and order over anarchy, and, in my opinion, did a lot of good in spite  of his ham-handedness.

Peter (Madame Femme can relate with rolling eyes to Mrs. Roosevelt) Garrison
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 03, 2020, 10:23:22 AM
And if I were one of his sneaky and conniving advisers, Not at all interested in dealing with the real situation, but only bolstering his ego, I might have said, “great idea! Let’s go kick some protesters ass while we do this! Won’t that be fun! And if we’re lucky, we can provoke them into throwing things at our cops. That would be great too.”
Interesting that for you this is all a means to your political ends. If you spent half as much time criticizing the senseless destruction of property and livelihood by these selfish violent thugs, you may be listened to ... but as you are wont to say ... carry on.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 10:44:41 AM
Police chiefs, Sheriffs, mayors, and others – including the mayor of Los Angeles – have gone out to the protesters, sat with them, knelt down with them, and had a discussion. One sheriff in Michigan stripped off his protective gear and went out to the protesters, talked with them and then marched with them.
All of these actions calmed things down.
Aren’t those actions better tactics than threatening to call out the Armed Forces, and screaming dominate! dominate! dominate!?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 03, 2020, 10:51:40 AM
Police chiefs, Sheriffs, mayors, and others – including the mayor of Los Angeles – have gone out to the protesters, sat with them, knelt down with them, and had a discussion. One sheriff in Michigan stripped off his protective gear and went out to the protesters, talked with them and then marched with them.
All of these actions calmed things down.
Aren’t those actions better tactics than threatening to call out the Armed Forces, and screaming dominate! dominate! dominate!?

You continue, intentionally I must assume, to confuse peaceful protesters with rioters. I have yet to see a visual of the police, a mayor, or any other official sitting down with rioters.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 10:58:33 AM
Peter writes:
It is such a simple question that all the critics and whiners refuse to answer-- what would you have done if you were in charge of security and the protesters refused to move and began throwing things at your security detail?
I muse:
I might’ve said, “there’s no way you can go there without causing a serious incident that is going to make you look bad. So don’t go there.“
Or I might’ve sent people out to peacefully open a path, without using armored cops and physical force. If we could not do that, back to option one.
And if I were one of his sneaky and conniving advisers, Not at all interested in dealing with the real situation, but only bolstering his ego, I might have said, “great idea! Let’s go kick some protesters ass while we do this! Won’t that be fun! And if we’re lucky, we can provoke them into throwing things at our cops. That would be great too.”
Look bad to whom? To many, many people, refusing to be seen, refusing to address the burning of a building on a national mall, letting the protesters determine what the president will do would look way, way, worse than forcibly dispersing an unruly crowd that is on the side of the people who burned the church in the first place.

The security detail undoubtedly told the protesters, in effect, there is no way you can stay here without causing a serious incident, so best to make way or disperse. They didn't want to do that. They made it a confrontation. And it was handled with the minimum of force necessary to make clear that the law will be enforced. Let the protesters get a whiff of an idea that they can defeat law enforcement and chaos breaks out immediately. Then the people who caused it claim they weren't on the side of chaos and shouldn't be confused with the rioters and looters, etc. But you break the levy, you're responsible for the flood. In a time of unrest and uncertainty, looking strong can be more important than looking sensitive.

 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 11:02:40 AM
I dare to suggest that should there have been people in those crowds who might turn into rioters, a bit of gentleness and compassion from those in authority might keep that from happening. Is there anything you won’t say to justify heavy-handed police violence? A brick through a window is bad. A burning store is bad. But neither is as bad as multiple deaths of people, some of whom might’ve been peaceful demonstrators.
Anybody here old enough to remember Kent State? Or Newark or Detroit in 1968?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 11:08:16 AM
Peter
The security detail undoubtedly told the protesters, in effect, there is no way you can Peters here without causing a serious incident, so best to make way or disperse. They didn't want to do that. They made it a confrontation.
Me:
I’m not sure we know if this is true.

Peter:
And it was handled with the minimum of force necessary to make clear that the law will be enforced. Let the protesters get a whiff of an idea that they can defeat law enforcement and chaos breaks out immediately.
Me:
You mean nobody fired any lethal bullets? Ok, that’s good.

Peter:
Then the people who caused it claim they weren't on the side of chaos and shouldn't be confused with the rioters and looters, etc. But you break the levy, you're responsible for the flood. In a time of unrest and uncertainty, looking strong can be more important than looking sensitive.
Me:
Even if your attempts to look strong are what’s causing the unrest and uncertainty?
A cartoon in the paper today shows trump holding the Bible for his photo op, and saying something like ‘get the Bible in the picture, but I don’t want to open it up and read any of that crap about blessed are the peacemakers.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: The Yak on June 03, 2020, 11:18:38 AM
Peter
The security detail undoubtedly told the protesters, in effect, there is no way you can Peters here without causing a serious incident, so best to make way or disperse. They didn't want to do that. They made it a confrontation.
Me:
I’m not sure we know if this is true.

Actually, we do.  The DC Park Police issued a statement yesterday (https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/6_2_20_statement_from_acting_chief_monahan.htm).

The United States Park Police (USPP) is committed to the peaceful expression of First Amendment rights. However, this past weekend’s demonstrations at Lafayette Park and across the National Mall included activities that were not part of a peaceful protest, which resulted in injuries to USPP officers in the line of duty, the destruction of public property and the defacing of memorials and monuments. During four days of demonstrations, 51 members of the USPP were injured; of those, 11 were transported to the hospital and released and three were admitted.

Multiple agencies assisted the USPP in responding to and quelling the acts of destruction and violence over the course of the weekend in order to protect citizens and property.

On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park.  At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.

To curtail the violence that was underway, the USPP, following established policy, issued three warnings over a loudspeaker to alert demonstrators on H Street to evacuate the area. Horse mounted patrol, Civil Disturbance Units and additional personnel were used to clear the area. As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls. No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park. Subsequently, the fence was installed.

Throughout the demonstrations, the USPP has not made any arrests. The USPP will always support peaceful assembly but cannot tolerate violence to citizens or officers or damage to our nation’s resources that we are entrusted to protect.

Given the insta-headlines all across the legacy media, someone's lying here, and my bet is not on the Park Police.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 11:22:04 AM
Thank you, Dr. Yak. That is useful information.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
Thank you, Dr. Yak. That is useful information.

Which is the very same information Rev. Kirchner gave you twice last night.  At 11:18 and 11:37.  Even quoting the same report. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 11:55:26 AM
https://townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/2020/06/02/white-man-cant-breathe-n2569897  Interesting story about a similar situation in Dallas, in which police used the same maneuver on a suspect.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 03, 2020, 12:16:02 PM
I am glad that police chiefs and sheriffs have had peaceful encounters with protestors. I'm sure the PR was very effective. But that was in the daylight hours when the peaceful protests take place.  The greatest violence, by far, has taken place under cover of darkness.  I would doubt that these same law enforcement officers would remove protective gear and allow themselves to be as vulnerable in the midst of the chaos of looting, burning and projectile throwing that characterized those evening events.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 12:16:40 PM
Pastor Kirchner:
There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.
Me:
Yes, because of course everyone who expresses that sentiment is attacked, put down, beat up and driven out of town. That poor barber is such a victim!
Meanwhile, in the last five years 60 percent of the times that Minneapolis police have used physical force against a suspect, that suspect has been black. Given population figures (percentages white or black) this means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.
Can we keep focus on real victims rather that phony-worry about people who aren’t?

Just a reminder from the other thread ("Words from Dr. Robert Gagnon...":

"...Are the protesters protesting a disproportionate pandemic of unjust killings of blacks by white police officers? Studies (including a study by a black professor at Harvard) show that blacks are killed at no higher rate by white officers than blacks are killed by black officers or than whites are killed by white officers. In fact, police are 47% *less* likely to shoot black suspects who hadn’t already attacked them compared with whites. Every death of this sort is tragic but what looks like a disproportionate rate of killing apparently only seems so because of the disproportionate media attention given to the killing of blacks by white officers. Whites per case are also more likely to be arrested than blacks for robbery and assault.

Do racist attitudes and thoughts still exist? Yes, but what official is advocating such or what policy is promoting such? When these attitudes and thoughts issue in actions that can be dealt with by the system, they are being dealt with.

So far as crime is concerned, the major issue is not racism since blacks are far more likely to be victimized by fellow blacks than they are by white people in general, much less by white police officers in particular. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., including over 90% of all murders where a black person is the victim. Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.

As regards interracial crimes, 'In 2012, blacks committed 560,600 acts of violence against whites (excluding homicide), and whites committed 99,403 acts of violence (excluding homicide) against blacks,' writes the Manhattan Institute’s Heather Mac Donald, citing federal Bureau of Justice Statistics data. 'Blacks, in other words, committed 85 percent of the non-homicide interracial crimes of violence between blacks and whites.' Blacks are also 12 times more likely to rob white victims than whites are to rob black victims..."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2020, 12:28:22 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/sacramento-kings-announcer-out-following-all-lives-matter-tweet (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/sacramento-kings-announcer-out-following-all-lives-matter-tweet)

"ALL LIVES MATTER...EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!"

Tone deaf idiot! That'll teach 'im!  ::)

There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.


The 99 sheep complained, "Don't our lives matter?"


The shepherd said, "Yes, but only one sheep is lost and needs my help right now."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2020, 12:35:47 PM
Police chiefs, Sheriffs, mayors, and others – including the mayor of Los Angeles – have gone out to the protesters, sat with them, knelt down with them, and had a discussion. One sheriff in Michigan stripped off his protective gear and went out to the protesters, talked with them and then marched with them.
All of these actions calmed things down.
Aren’t those actions better tactics than threatening to call out the Armed Forces, and screaming dominate! dominate! dominate!?

You continue, intentionally I must assume, to confuse peaceful protesters with rioters. I have yet to see a visual of the police, a mayor, or any other official sitting down with rioters.


By sitting down with protesters, it's likely that he stopped some from doing criminal activities. Preventing rioting before it starts is much better than using violence to stop the violence after it has started.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2020, 12:38:18 PM
I am glad that police chiefs and sheriffs have had peaceful encounters with protestors. I'm sure the PR was very effective. But that was in the daylight hours when the peaceful protests take place.  The greatest violence, by far, has taken place under cover of darkness.  I would doubt that these same law enforcement officers would remove protective gear and allow themselves to be as vulnerable in the midst of the chaos of looting, burning and projectile throwing that characterized those evening events.


Part of the issue is that with darkness comes mandated curfews and some want to defy the police. The violence on both sides escalates.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 03, 2020, 12:46:42 PM
Police chiefs, Sheriffs, mayors, and others – including the mayor of Los Angeles – have gone out to the protesters, sat with them, knelt down with them, and had a discussion. One sheriff in Michigan stripped off his protective gear and went out to the protesters, talked with them and then marched with them.
All of these actions calmed things down.
Aren’t those actions better tactics than threatening to call out the Armed Forces, and screaming dominate! dominate! dominate!?

You continue, intentionally I must assume, to confuse peaceful protesters with rioters. I have yet to see a visual of the police, a mayor, or any other official sitting down with rioters.


By sitting down with protesters, it's likely that he stopped some from doing criminal activities. Preventing rioting before it starts is much better than using violence to stop the violence after it has started.

It should be understood that there is more than one group at play.  One should not confuse the peaceful protestors with the criminal element.  Sitting down with peaceful protestors was a good thing.  But I can't imagine that the criminal element, those throwing projectiles, setting fires, looking, were interested in sitting down or kneeling with police.  They were intent on violence and law-breaking when they came, and as we are discovering, they were probably not locals.  Watching the video footage and reading the accounts of the violence (some recounted here in posts), I realize that this is not a group of people you can 'sit down with.'  From a safety point of view that would just be careless.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 12:56:30 PM
Yesterday evening James Miller, former undersecretary of defense for policy and then member of the Defense Science Board, submitted his resignation to Secretary of Defense Mark Esper over the clearing of Lafayette Square and the President's Bible photo. His letter was published by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true)

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 03, 2020, 12:57:55 PM
Oh if only these bleeding heart anarchist condoning posters would spend as many pixels condemning the thugs that injured the 50+ NPS personal  ... more effort sadly is spent excusing the anarchist which injure destroy innocent citizen's body and property.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
Yesterday evening James Miller, former undersecretary of defense for policy and then member of the Defense Science Board, submitted his resignation to Secretary of Defense Mark Esper over the clearing of Lafayette Square and the President's Bible photo. His letter was published by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true)

Peace,
Michael
From his letter: "Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op."

So you see that the intentional lies of the press are not without consequence. But I can see that our nation is better off today not to have a person with such poor judgment serving as the undersecretary of anything.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Tom Eckstein on June 03, 2020, 01:13:53 PM
Yesterday evening James Miller, former undersecretary of defense for policy and then member of the Defense Science Board, submitted his resignation to Secretary of Defense Mark Esper over the clearing of Lafayette Square and the President's Bible photo. His letter was published by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true)

Peace,
Michael
From his letter: "Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op."

So you see that the intentional lies of the press are not without consequence. But I can see that our nation is better off today not to have a person with such poor judgment serving as the undersecretary of anything.[/i]


"AMEN!"  to what Peter says!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 01:17:41 PM
Yesterday evening James Miller, former undersecretary of defense for policy and then member of the Defense Science Board, submitted his resignation to Secretary of Defense Mark Esper over the clearing of Lafayette Square and the President's Bible photo. His letter was published by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/02/secretary-esper-you-violated-your-oath-aiding-trumps-photo-op-thats-why-im-resigning/?arc404=true)

Peace,
Michael

Is it some big surprise that a former Obama bureaucrat is trashing President Trump?  Or that he resigned from some quango to add force to that trashing?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 03, 2020, 01:26:36 PM
The elected leadership of Minneapolis needs to look in the mirror to see the problem with police violence and systematic racism in their city:

https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2020-6-2-surely-minneapolis-of-all-places-must-have-cured-racism-by-now
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 01:27:22 PM
So he resigned because he thought his boss had violated his oath without even asking his boss what happened or verifying what he had heard, and also sent his letter of resignation to the national press? Sounds like a quality guy  ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 01:56:34 PM
Amazing. You doubt his word. You question whether he has done due diligence before making his statements. You assume the worst about what he is saying. And you assume because he is a former official in the Obama administration that he has no integrity and only wants to trash the current administration. I think by merely agreeing to serve under the current administration that is disproved. But I am concluding that even smart people here will go to any lengths to justify anything that happens under this president.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 02:12:12 PM
Much has been made of the difference between the agents pepper spray and tear gas. USA has an informative guide:
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-everything-know-tear-gas-pepper-spray/5307500002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-everything-know-tear-gas-pepper-spray/5307500002/)

We know from the assurances of the Acting Chief of the US Park Police that only the pepper balls were used in Lafayette Park. On the square in front of the church, see the video shot by the Australian news team, before they were knocked over, beaten, and shot with rubber bullets.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 03, 2020, 02:15:47 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/sacramento-kings-announcer-out-following-all-lives-matter-tweet (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/sacramento-kings-announcer-out-following-all-lives-matter-tweet)

"ALL LIVES MATTER...EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!"

Tone deaf idiot! That'll teach 'im!  ::)

There's a small barbershop in town. Outside, for years, hangs a banner stating, "Blue Lives Matter" I'm kind of surprised it's still standing.

The 99 sheep complained, "Don't our lives matter?"

The shepherd said, "Yes, but only one sheep is lost and needs my help right now."

And it's not you, David Dorn!   ::)

https://www.foxnews.com/us/david-dorn-st-louis-cop-killed-looting-son-message
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 02:27:29 PM
Much has been made of the difference between the agents pepper spray and tear gas. USA has an informative guide:
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-everything-know-tear-gas-pepper-spray/5307500002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-everything-know-tear-gas-pepper-spray/5307500002/)

We know from the assurances of the Acting Chief of the US Park Police that only the pepper balls were used in Lafayette Park. On the square in front of the church, see the video shot by the Australian news team, before they were knocked over, beaten, and shot with rubber bullets.

Peace,
Michael
Smoke canisters are neither pepper spray nor tear gas. How would you move people who refused to move, especially when violence is breaking out all over the place?

Right now there are various road blocks all through Munster, including the main North-South street through town, Calumet Ave. I know many of the police here-- good people. But if I insisted on ignoring the official their warnings about where I could stand or walk, eventually they would use force against me. That would be their job, no matter how peaceful I claim to be. The Australian press does not get to dictate where the U.S. President goes. They were told to move and refused, so they got moved. Because people were doing their job. Ignoring lawful orders from law enforcement is not "peaceful."

 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 02:34:32 PM
Always, and every case, apply the strong arm of the law, the stronger the better. Don’t take into consideration the situation. Don’t attempt to seek any kind of peaceful resolutions. Don’t ask yourself “will anything terrible happen if I don’t use force here”?  Just, the moment you suspect a law is being broken, apply force. Amazing. Just amazing. And scary.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 02:34:44 PM
Minnesotans generally tend to be nice people, even when they don't appear to be:
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/government-and-politics/6517646-Small-town-Minnesota-mayor-resigns-after-Facebook-post-about-protesters (https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/government-and-politics/6517646-Small-town-Minnesota-mayor-resigns-after-Facebook-post-about-protesters)
Quote
Patch shared a meme on his Facebook page over the weekend that showed a blood-covered vehicle with the caption: "I don't know what you mean by protesters on the freeway. I came through no problem."
.  .  .  . 
Here is the text of Patch's letter:

"I have been a city official for the past 8 years and try to look out for the best interest of the city. I have made a mistake by sharing a post without the correct context behind it. The post was in reference to a conversation I had the night before. I ran across this post the next day and wanted to share it with that person. I did not like the post. I did not see humor in the post. It was meant for the individual to recognize how bad it could be to drive through protesters. And also, if you are going to protest, to do so safely because this could happen."

Patch also explained that he is a first responder himself, "I try to save lives, not take them. . . Protests can, and do, send a strong message. I would like for everyone to work together as a team. I believe ALL lives matter. I would like to get training available to myself and anyone that has interest in learning more about racism, to make things better for our community and world."
Makes me feel good.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 02:35:38 PM
Amazing. You doubt his word. You question whether he has done due diligence before making his statements. You assume the worst about what he is saying. And you assume because he is a former official in the Obama administration that he has no integrity and only wants to trash the current administration. I think by merely agreeing to serve under the current administration that is disproved. But I am concluding that even smart people here will go to any lengths to justify anything that happens under this president.
I don't doubt his word. Did he say anywhere that he took his concerns to his boss directly before resigning? I know for a fact that he sent his letter of resignation to the press. I know for a fact he was wrong about what happened, which was his reason cited for resigning. A guy publicly accuses administration officials of violating their oath of office, and you think he and not the accused public officials deserve the benefit of the doubt?

It is not possible to work in an organization with a bureaucracy staffed with people who behave like this. I could not be the boss of people who resigned in protest over things they read I did and then publicly accused me of them in the press. Yet the federal government is apparently filled with such people who will do that kind of thing to Trump administration officials. Witness the FBI folks in the Russia news stories. It would be like trying to serve as pastor of a conflicted parish with a church secretary who believed and passed along as fact everything bad anyone said about you.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 02:41:13 PM
Always, and every case, apply the strong arm of the law, the stronger the better. Don’t take into consideration the situation. Don’t attempt to seek any kind of peaceful resolutions. Don’t ask yourself “will anything terrible happen if I don’t use force here”?  Just, the moment you suspect a law is being broken, apply force. Amazing. Just amazing. And scary.
You simply don't get it. It was precisely in consideration of the situation-- the country descending into chaos, city and state governments seemingly powerless to stop violence and looting--- that it was important for the government not to back down. In many other instances that wouldn't be the case. I don't advocate the use of force in any and every situation. You simply apply your normal breathless hyperbole to what I've written.





 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: pearson on June 03, 2020, 02:47:19 PM

Always, and every case, apply the strong arm of the law, the stronger the better. Don’t take into consideration the situation. Don’t attempt to seek any kind of peaceful resolutions. Don’t ask yourself “will anything terrible happen if I don’t use force here”?  Just, the moment you suspect a law is being broken, apply force. Amazing. Just amazing. And scary.


Please.  Remember that which you so often remind us.  Life is messy.  Things are complicated.  Stop saying things like, "Always, in every case. . .," as if random exceptions to an imagined absolute thereby demonstrate the legitimacy of a contrary point of view.

Tom Pearson
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 03:14:39 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 03:28:24 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael
So, "peaceful" protesters throwing bricks, rocks, and various liquids at Park Police who had already sustained 51 injuries and 11 hospital visits refuse to abide by erected barricades, and the outrage is that after warning them, the police dispersed them with a non-tear gas crowd control smoke device.

What do you think they should have done?

Edit: regardless of what the technical term for the smoke/gas is, the fact remains that the people deploying it were not wearing gas masks, which means its effects are not at all like actual tear gas or pepper spray.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 03, 2020, 03:35:14 PM
Amazing. You doubt his word. You question whether he has done due diligence before making his statements. You assume the worst about what he is saying. And you assume because he is a former official in the Obama administration that he has no integrity and only wants to trash the current administration. I think by merely agreeing to serve under the current administration that is disproved. But I am concluding that even smart people here will go to any lengths to justify anything that happens under this president.
I don't doubt his word. Did he say anywhere that he took his concerns to his boss directly before resigning? I know for a fact that he sent his letter of resignation to the press. I know for a fact he was wrong about what happened, which was his reason cited for resigning. A guy publicly accuses administration officials of violating their oath of office, and you think he and not the accused public officials deserve the benefit of the doubt?

It is not possible to work in an organization with a bureaucracy staffed with people who behave like this. I could not be the boss of people who resigned in protest over things they read I did and then publicly accused me of them in the press. Yet the federal government is apparently filled with such people who will do that kind of thing to Trump administration officials. Witness the FBI folks in the Russia news stories. It would be like trying to serve as pastor of a conflicted parish with a church secretary who believed and passed along as fact everything bad anyone said about you.

Worse than that are those who stay and leak and covertly undermine the administration.  He's had to deal with both.

Some folks believe everything they leak, say and do because they're not the baddie.  So they must be the goodie.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James_Gale on June 03, 2020, 03:48:05 PM
Why is it that every thread transforms into a discussion of Donald Trump? 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: passerby on June 03, 2020, 03:56:21 PM

We don't have a "police problem" in this country vis-à-vis race but a racial problem caused by a sense of helplessness among people who have seen every possibility of bettering themselves disappearing along with the good jobs that did not require a 4 year degree.  Racial animosity, IMO, exists largely because economic and cultural elites care little for the welfare of the whole community.  Thus we have President Trump as a response to some and riots as a response from others.
There was an interesting interview on NPR with a criminologist at Bowling Green State U, who said that there is a police subculture of fear toward black men and boys, even among officers of color. The interviewer didn't pursue that response but I would argue that there is also a subculture of fear and resistance (and some hostility) toward police in many black neighborhoods that can lead to conflict. Some of this fear is valid, given past experiences, but one can easily see how both communities' fears toward each other can feed on each other. This is a problem that can't be solved anytime soon, especially during a crisis like this.
Here is an interesting article on  this seemingly intractable conflict by black Christian sociologist George Yancey: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/shatteringparadigms/2020/06/im-tired/?fbclid=IwAR3-o3e5-HR0YRdS_ql2_rRcenXQwh3Vc5zvA1Sho1dPx4ptpwDRvVJVN84
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 04:08:14 PM

We don't have a "police problem" in this country vis-à-vis race but a racial problem caused by a sense of helplessness among people who have seen every possibility of bettering themselves disappearing along with the good jobs that did not require a 4 year degree.  Racial animosity, IMO, exists largely because economic and cultural elites care little for the welfare of the whole community.  Thus we have President Trump as a response to some and riots as a response from others.
There was an interesting interview on NPR with a criminologist at Bowling Green State U, who said that there is a police subculture of fear toward black men and boys, even among officers of color. The interviewer didn't pursue that response but I would argue that there is also a subculture of fear and resistance (and some hostility) toward police in many black neighborhoods that can lead to conflict. Some of this fear is valid, given past experiences, but one can easily see how both communities' fears toward each other can feed on each other. This is a problem that can't be solved anytime soon, especially during a crisis like this.
Here is an interesting article on  this seemingly intractable conflict by black Christian sociologist George Yancey: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/shatteringparadigms/2020/06/im-tired/?fbclid=IwAR3-o3e5-HR0YRdS_ql2_rRcenXQwh3Vc5zvA1Sho1dPx4ptpwDRvVJVN84
This is an important point about the downward spiral of mutual fear.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 03, 2020, 04:12:58 PM
Police chiefs, Sheriffs, mayors, and others – including the mayor of Los Angeles – have gone out to the protesters, sat with them, knelt down with them, and had a discussion.

Seems to me I recall even Richard Nixon paying a late night visit to anti-war demonstrators at the Lincoln Memorial and having a chat with some of them.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 03, 2020, 04:19:15 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 03, 2020, 04:21:51 PM
My daughter is doing a weekly video thing with her congregation. Today she addressed the whole situation in what I thought was a very wise and compassionate way:   https://www.facebook.com/StPaulsPittsford/videos/2729624790606408 (https://www.facebook.com/StPaulsPittsford/videos/2729624790606408)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 04:26:05 PM
Nixon had something to talk about with them-- the pros and cons of the Viet Nam War and the policy of Vietnamization. That is, they were protesting something specific, and taking it to the one in a position to do something about it. Made sense. 

And I doubt the demonstrators were throwing bricks at the Park Police when he did it. But it is true that Trump has more of a Mayor Daley approach.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 04:37:55 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 04:42:54 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael
The point is that the story was reported with a deliberate slant. Nobody erred on the side of making the officials look better than they were. They all erred in the side of making the protesters look more innocent and more mistreated than they were.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Norman Teigen on June 03, 2020, 04:44:24 PM
The distinction about the gas used is meaningless. Gas was used towards the goal of clearing the way for the President's unholy photo-op in front of the church with the Bible in his hand.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 05:08:00 PM
The distinction about the gas used is meaningless. Gas was used towards the goal of clearing the way for the President's unholy photo-op in front of the church with the Bible in his hand.
Again, I get that you hate Trump, Evangelicals, and conservatives generally with deep, righteous, and holy passion, but the relative holiness of his speech and Bible compared to other presidents doesn’t change the question of how well or poorly the USPP handled the crowd or how accurately the mainstream press portrayed that interaction.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Weedon on June 03, 2020, 05:14:16 PM
Peter, probably should just throw in the towel. Unreason is unreason; and no reasonable argument can be sustained against it. Every fact is viewed through that lens. TDS is evident in spades.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 05:21:08 PM
It won’t work, Peter. You can keep focusing on this relatively small incident, which, no matter how serious it was, does not represent the whole deal. As a matter of fact, not even the accuracy or in accuracy of the media is the whole deal. The focus ought to be the systemic racism which brings about situations like this.
Oh, wait! You’re not sure it was racism. Does that matter? Call it police misconduct, call it Whatever you want to call it, but note where it happens most often, and who suffers the most because of it.
Bad guys among the protesters? Yes, probably.
Laws broken? Yes, probably, although some of those laws are relatively minor, not everyone was throwing bricks through store windows.
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws, or the media being biased or getting a few  things wrong. That ought not to be the focus here.
Even Fox News has questioned some of the actions of our president. And although there are plenty of bad actions on his part, even those are not to be the focus here. They are simply illustrating things that we already knew about him.
The focus is the systemic problems, especially racism, in institutions in our society that bring about situations like this.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 05:31:12 PM
It won’t work, Peter. You can keep focusing on this relatively small incident, which, no matter how serious it was, does not represent the whole deal. As a matter of fact, not even the accuracy or in accuracy of the media is the whole deal. The focus ought to be the systemic racism which brings about situations like this.
Oh, wait! You’re not sure it was racism. Does that matter? Call it police misconduct, call it Whatever you want to call it, but note where it happens most often, and who suffers the most because of it.
Bad guys among the protesters? Yes, probably.
Laws broken? Yes, probably, although some of those laws are relatively minor, not everyone was throwing bricks through store windows.
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws, or the media being biased or getting a few  things wrong. That ought not to be the focus here.
Even Fox News has questioned some of the actions of our president. And although there are plenty of bad actions on his part, even those are not to be the focus here. They are simply illustrating things that we already knew about him.
The focus is the systemic problems, especially racism, in institutions in our society that bring about situations like this.
Has that been your focus? Is that the focus of the riots? I notice you don’t chide Fr. Slusser or Norman for posting about the Trump speech. Why not get them back on message?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 03, 2020, 05:49:14 PM
I agree that the primary purpose of the peaceful protests is supposed to be about racism and unfair treatment of blacks by law enforcement.  But I also don't understand downplaying the incredible acts of violence and destruction throughout this country that escalated within hours and days of George Floyd's death. More death occurred.  Death as senseless and avoidable as Floyd's.  Businesses were trashed and burned and looted. Monuments were defaced. People were accosted and injured. Major cities from coast-to-coast reported major acts of destruction and violence. Even the major media outlets did not report this behavior as "minor acts" or a "few protestors breaking laws."  At least not what I heard day after day both on the evening and morning news reports.   
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 03, 2020, 05:54:06 PM
The distinction about the gas used is meaningless. Gas was used towards the goal of clearing the way for the President's unholy photo-op in front of the church with the Bible in his hand.

It was a stupid photo and a shallow exercise. But who the heck are you to determine it unholy?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 05:57:30 PM
It won’t work, Peter. You can keep focusing on this relatively small incident, which, no matter how serious it was, does not represent the whole deal. As a matter of fact, not even the accuracy or in accuracy of the media is the whole deal. The focus ought to be the systemic racism which brings about situations like this.
Oh, wait! You’re not sure it was racism. Does that matter? Call it police misconduct, call it Whatever you want to call it, but note where it happens most often, and who suffers the most because of it.
Bad guys among the protesters? Yes, probably.
Laws broken? Yes, probably, although some of those laws are relatively minor, not everyone was throwing bricks through store windows.
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws, or the media being biased or getting a few  things wrong. That ought not to be the focus here.
Even Fox News has questioned some of the actions of our president. And although there are plenty of bad actions on his part, even those are not to be the focus here. They are simply illustrating things that we already knew about him.
The focus is the systemic problems, especially racism, in institutions in our society that bring about situations like this.

Just a reminder from the other thread ("Words from Dr. Robert Gagnon...":

"...Are the protesters protesting a disproportionate pandemic of unjust killings of blacks by white police officers? Studies (including a study by a black professor at Harvard) show that blacks are killed at no higher rate by white officers than blacks are killed by black officers or than whites are killed by white officers. In fact, police are 47% *less* likely to shoot black suspects who hadn’t already attacked them compared with whites. Every death of this sort is tragic but what looks like a disproportionate rate of killing apparently only seems so because of the disproportionate media attention given to the killing of blacks by white officers. Whites per case are also more likely to be arrested than blacks for robbery and assault.

Do racist attitudes and thoughts still exist? Yes, but what official is advocating such or what policy is promoting such? When these attitudes and thoughts issue in actions that can be dealt with by the system, they are being dealt with.

So far as crime is concerned, the major issue is not racism since blacks are far more likely to be victimized by fellow blacks than they are by white people in general, much less by white police officers in particular. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., including over 90% of all murders where a black person is the victim. Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.

As regards interracial crimes, 'In 2012, blacks committed 560,600 acts of violence against whites (excluding homicide), and whites committed 99,403 acts of violence (excluding homicide) against blacks,' writes the Manhattan Institute’s Heather Mac Donald, citing federal Bureau of Justice Statistics data. 'Blacks, in other words, committed 85 percent of the non-homicide interracial crimes of violence between blacks and whites.' Blacks are also 12 times more likely to rob white victims than whites are to rob black victims..."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2020, 06:00:51 PM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
It won’t work, Peter. You can keep focusing on this relatively small incident, which, no matter how serious it was, does not represent the whole deal. As a matter of fact, not even the accuracy or in accuracy of the media is the whole deal. The focus ought to be the systemic racism which brings about situations like this.
Oh, wait! You’re not sure it was racism. Does that matter? Call it police misconduct, call it Whatever you want to call it, but note where it happens most often, and who suffers the most because of it.
Bad guys among the protesters? Yes, probably.
Laws broken? Yes, probably, although some of those laws are relatively minor, not everyone was throwing bricks through store windows.
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws, or the media being biased or getting a few  things wrong. That ought not to be the focus here.
Even Fox News has questioned some of the actions of our president. And although there are plenty of bad actions on his part, even those are not to be the focus here. They are simply illustrating things that we already knew about him.
The focus is the systemic problems, especially racism, in institutions in our society that bring about situations like this.

Just a reminder from the other thread ("Words from Dr. Robert Gagnon...":

"...Are the protesters protesting a disproportionate pandemic of unjust killings of blacks by white police officers? Studies (including a study by a black professor at Harvard) show that blacks are killed at no higher rate by white officers than blacks are killed by black officers or than whites are killed by white officers. In fact, police are 47% *less* likely to shoot black suspects who hadn’t already attacked them compared with whites. Every death of this sort is tragic but what looks like a disproportionate rate of killing apparently only seems so because of the disproportionate media attention given to the killing of blacks by white officers. Whites per case are also more likely to be arrested than blacks for robbery and assault.

Do racist attitudes and thoughts still exist? Yes, but what official is advocating such or what policy is promoting such? When these attitudes and thoughts issue in actions that can be dealt with by the system, they are being dealt with.

So far as crime is concerned, the major issue is not racism since blacks are far more likely to be victimized by fellow blacks than they are by white people in general, much less by white police officers in particular. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., including over 90% of all murders where a black person is the victim. Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.

As regards interracial crimes, 'In 2012, blacks committed 560,600 acts of violence against whites (excluding homicide), and whites committed 99,403 acts of violence (excluding homicide) against blacks,' writes the Manhattan Institute’s Heather Mac Donald, citing federal Bureau of Justice Statistics data. 'Blacks, in other words, committed 85 percent of the non-homicide interracial crimes of violence between blacks and whites.' Blacks are also 12 times more likely to rob white victims than whites are to rob black victims..."
That is why progressives will justify rioting until their view of the matter is accepted as a premise rather than a point of debate. It never stands up to scrutiny where it is not hidden in the assumptions. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 03, 2020, 06:03:32 PM
Always, and every case, apply the strong arm of the law, the stronger the better. Don’t take into consideration the situation. Don’t attempt to seek any kind of peaceful resolutions. Don’t ask yourself “will anything terrible happen if I don’t use force here”?  Just, the moment you suspect a law is being broken, apply force. Amazing. Just amazing. And scary.

Indeed!  Government force should only be used for the extremely serious of matters, like baking custom wedding cakes and having celibate nuns to pay for birth control and pregnancy termination coverage.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 06:08:01 PM
Has that been your focus? Is that the focus of the riots? I notice you don’t chide Fr. Slusser or Norman for posting about the Trump speech. Why not get them back on message?
Posting about the Trump speech? Which speech? And where did I post about it? I may have forgotten, since I've been preoccupied with the Minneapolis demonstrations and the violent clearing of the street in front of St. John's in washington, with excursions into the details of different riot control gases and the startling story (to me) of the change of heart of the ex-mayor of Blackduck MN. Remind me about that speech and what I said about it.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 06:21:37 PM
Has that been your focus? Is that the focus of the riots? I notice you don’t chide Fr. Slusser or Norman for posting about the Trump speech. Why not get them back on message?
Posting about the Trump speech? Which speech? And where did I post about it? I may have forgotten, since I've been preoccupied with the Minneapolis demonstrations and the violent clearing of the street in front of St. John's in washington, with excursions into the details of different riot control gases and the startling story (to me) of the change of heart of the ex-mayor of Blackduck MN. Remind me about that speech and what I said about it.

Peace,
Michael
You posted this on Monday: The President gets any photo op he wants. It's in the US Constitution, Article II.

Peace,
Michael

Also, your hangups about the USPP clearing of the crowd for Trump to make his speech is something I include under the topic of Trump's speech generally.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 03, 2020, 06:30:26 PM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."
If you consider a discrepancy in Gospel accounts in the number of angels or women at the tomb to be as significant as whether a dangerous irritant gas or relatively less dangerous smoke was used to clear demonstrators,  that illustrates why I usually don't take your exegetical pronouncements seriously.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2020, 06:46:35 PM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."
If you consider a discrepancy in Gospel accounts in the number of angels or women at the tomb to be as significant as whether a dangerous irritant gas or relatively less dangerous smoke was used to clear demonstrators,  that illustrates why I usually don't take your exegetical pronouncements seriously.


But you do take news reports seriously - if they come from the right sources?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 03, 2020, 06:51:19 PM
I agree that the primary purpose of the peaceful protests is supposed to be about racism and unfair treatment of blacks by law enforcement.  But I also don't understand downplaying the incredible acts of violence and destruction throughout this country that escalated within hours and days of George Floyd's death. More death occurred.  Death as senseless and avoidable as Floyd's.  Businesses were trashed and burned and looted. Monuments were defaced. People were accosted and injured. Major cities from coast-to-coast reported major acts of destruction and violence. Even the major media outlets did not report this behavior as "minor acts" or a "few protestors breaking laws."  At least not what I heard day after day both on the evening and morning news reports.

Antifa has been preparing for this for a long time. They just wanted a trigger. They slide in behind the peaceful-protest-turned-into-looting and start creating more chaos. Their pre-staged pallets of bricks on street corners and incendiary devices are the main tools. Their goal is the eventual destruction of our society.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 07:01:44 PM
Has that been your focus? Is that the focus of the riots? I notice you don’t chide Fr. Slusser or Norman for posting about the Trump speech. Why not get them back on message?
Posting about the Trump speech? Which speech? And where did I post about it? I may have forgotten, since I've been preoccupied with the Minneapolis demonstrations and the violent clearing of the street in front of St. John's in washington, with excursions into the details of different riot control gases and the startling story (to me) of the change of heart of the ex-mayor of Blackduck MN. Remind me about that speech and what I said about it.

Peace,
Michael
You posted this on Monday: The President gets any photo op he wants. It's in the US Constitution, Article II.

Peace,
Michael

Also, your hangups about the USPP clearing of the crowd for Trump to make his speech is something I include under the topic of Trump's speech generally.
I see: mentioning his photo op = posting about his speech. I did not hear a speech on that occasion, unless his reply, "It's a Bible" to the question "is that your Bible?" qualifies as a speech.

The Bible he held up was the Revised Standard Version. I would have thought a rather liberal translation to choose. Perhaps it was the look of the book. Have you heard the one about the couple who told their pastor that they'd chosen a name from the Bible for their child. "And what name have you chosen?," he asked. The father answered, "Genuine Morocco Leather!"

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James S. Rustad on June 03, 2020, 07:23:04 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael

According to the CDC:
Quote from: https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/riotcontrol/factsheet.asp
Riot control agents (sometimes referred to as “tear gas”) are chemical compounds that temporarily make people unable to function by causing irritation to the eyes, mouth, throat, lungs, and skin.

Hmmm...  Seems like that would include pepper balls.  Not surprising given that they are used for much the same purpose as CS, CN, or other types of "tear gas".

And before we get hung up on the "gas" part, consider:

OC is generally considered more effective than CN, so it's definitely on a par with the other riot control agents.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 03, 2020, 07:34:34 PM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 03, 2020, 07:59:08 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael

According to the CDC:
Quote from: https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/riotcontrol/factsheet.asp
Riot control agents (sometimes referred to as “tear gas”) are chemical compounds that temporarily make people unable to function by causing irritation to the eyes, mouth, throat, lungs, and skin.

Hmmm...  Seems like that would include pepper balls.  Not surprising given that they are used for much the same purpose as CS, CN, or other types of "tear gas".

And before we get hung up on the "gas" part, consider:
  • the active ingredient in CN is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in CR is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in CS is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in a pepper ball (OC) is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol

OC is generally considered more effective than CN, so it's definitely on a par with the other riot control agents.
<like>
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 03, 2020, 08:01:32 PM
So if there are news reports that tear gas was used on peaceful demonstrators and the police state that it was not tear gas but a less dangerous dispersant and the demonstrators were throwing projectiles, is that a significant discrepancy?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 03, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael

According to the CDC:
Quote from: https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/riotcontrol/factsheet.asp
Riot control agents (sometimes referred to as “tear gas”) are chemical compounds that temporarily make people unable to function by causing irritation to the eyes, mouth, throat, lungs, and skin.

Hmmm...  Seems like that would include pepper balls.  Not surprising given that they are used for much the same purpose as CS, CN, or other types of "tear gas".

And before we get hung up on the "gas" part, consider:
  • the active ingredient in CN is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in CR is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in CS is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol
  • the active ingredient in a pepper ball (OC) is a solid at room temperature and used as an aerosol

OC is generally considered more effective than CN, so it's definitely on a par with the other riot control agents.
<like>

Having, at various times, experienced the effects of all of the above except pepper balls (we were administered pepper spray back in the dark ages), all while either peacefully demonstrating or while being a totally uninvolved accidental recipient, I opt for none of the above.
They are, however, except for the unknown percentage of medically impaired people receiving the stuff, preferable to bullets, knives, clubs, bricks, rocks, water cannon, fire hoses, and bottles - no matter who administers them.

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2020, 09:21:58 PM
Much of this is from the Atlantic magazine. It is not possible to cut and paste efficiently so you can go to the magazine website and read more for yourself.

Jim Mattis, the former secretary of defense during the first two years of the Trump administration, released an extraordinary statement condemning President Trump’s use of the military against peaceful protesters:
   Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens — much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.
Mattis, who served more than four decades in the Marine Corps and rose to the rank of four-star general before he was chosen by Trump to lead the Pentagon, wrote that the nation is seeing the results of three years “without mature leadership”:
   Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people —does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
   Mattis’s dissatisfaction with Trump was no secret inside the Pentagon. But after his resignation, he argued publicly—and to great criticism—that it would be inappropriate and counterproductive for a former general, and a former Cabinet official, to criticize a sitting president. Doing so, he said, would threaten the apolitical nature of the military. When I interviewed him last year on this subject, he said, “When you leave an administration over clear policy differences, you need to give the people who are still there as much opportunity as possible to defend the country. They still have the responsibility of protecting this great big experiment of ours.” He did add, however: “There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”
   That period is now definitively over. Mattis reached the conclusion this past weekend that the American experiment is directly threatened by the actions of the president he once served. In his statement, Mattis makes it clear that the president’s response to the police killing of George Floyd, and the ensuing protests, triggered this public condemnation.
   “When I joined the military, some 50 years ago,” he writes, “I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”
   He goes on to implicitly criticize the current secretary of defense, Mark Esper, and other senior officials as well. “We must reject any thinking of our cities as a ‘battlespace’ that our uniformed military is called upon to ‘dominate.’ At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to Them.
    We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.
   Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.


Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2020, 09:52:00 PM
Much of this is from the Atlantic magazine. It is not possible to cut and paste efficiently so you can go to the magazine website and read more for yourself.

Jim Mattis, the former secretary of defense during the first two years of the Trump administration, released an extraordinary statement condemning President Trump’s use of the military against peaceful protesters:
   Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens — much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.
Mattis, who served more than four decades in the Marine Corps and rose to the rank of four-star general before he was chosen by Trump to lead the Pentagon, wrote that the nation is seeing the results of three years “without mature leadership”:
   Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people —does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
   Mattis’s dissatisfaction with Trump was no secret inside the Pentagon. But after his resignation, he argued publicly—and to great criticism—that it would be inappropriate and counterproductive for a former general, and a former Cabinet official, to criticize a sitting president. Doing so, he said, would threaten the apolitical nature of the military. When I interviewed him last year on this subject, he said, “When you leave an administration over clear policy differences, you need to give the people who are still there as much opportunity as possible to defend the country. They still have the responsibility of protecting this great big experiment of ours.” He did add, however: “There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”
   That period is now definitively over. Mattis reached the conclusion this past weekend that the American experiment is directly threatened by the actions of the president he once served. In his statement, Mattis makes it clear that the president’s response to the police killing of George Floyd, and the ensuing protests, triggered this public condemnation.
   “When I joined the military, some 50 years ago,” he writes, “I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”
   He goes on to implicitly criticize the current secretary of defense, Mark Esper, and other senior officials as well. “We must reject any thinking of our cities as a ‘battlespace’ that our uniformed military is called upon to ‘dominate.’ At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to Them.
    We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.
   Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
I can't believe Mattis has already forgotten about the murder of Floyd and tried to make this unique national moment about something else.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 03, 2020, 10:45:43 PM
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws ...

Unbelievable
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 03, 2020, 11:16:02 PM
I don’t get this obsession with a few protesters breaking laws ...

Unbelievable
I don't know, how do you feel about protesters breaking laws against grand larceny, arson, breaking and entering, assault and battery, attempted murder, murder, and the like? Should that be ignored?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2020, 02:49:57 AM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not.


I would ask you after hearing from your wife, "Why didn't you tell me that Don's wife was also there?" Or, "Why did you give us the impression that Don was the only one there?"


We can certainly ask the evangelists, "Why didn't you tell me about the other women?" "Why did you include only one angel?" "Why didn't you say anything about the earthquake? That would have helped explain how the stone was moved."


There has been such nitpicking about what was used to disperse the crowd. To untrained folks, the explosions we saw on TV looked like it could have been tear gas.



Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2020, 05:03:57 AM
There were lies about the protests, lies about “The Bunker” - verified
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/trump-protests.html
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 04, 2020, 06:56:58 AM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not.


I would ask you after hearing from your wife, "Why didn't you tell me that Don's wife was also there?" Or, "Why did you give us the impression that Don was the only one there?

Maybe because he talked to Don and not his wife.  Maybe for several other reasons.

You err. He never gave such an impression. That's your illogic again.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 04, 2020, 07:57:28 AM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not.


I would ask you after hearing from your wife, "Why didn't you tell me that Don's wife was also there?" Or, "Why did you give us the impression that Don was the only one there?"


We can certainly ask the evangelists, "Why didn't you tell me about the other women?" "Why did you include only one angel?" "Why didn't you say anything about the earthquake? That would have helped explain how the stone was moved."


There has been such nitpicking about what was used to disperse the crowd. To untrained folks, the explosions we saw on TV looked like it could have been tear gas.

Wait a minute.  In your first sentence sentence you say "I would say..." but then you add "why didn't you tell us...?"  So, which is it: are only YOU talking with me or are there others?  Why, I found a discrepancy in your writing, in the very first sentence!  I guess I cannot believe what you write from here on.  Or I will have to assume that there are so many different voices in your head that I can't treat your writings as a coherent unit, but will have to only address individual words.  Maybe this phrase comes from Person Q inside your head, maybe that one from some unnamed source.  But, really, it is all too much to accept that somehow there is only one person coming up with all of it, let alone that it is supposed to all fit together and make sense as a united whole.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2020, 08:10:31 AM
I hear the cold weather will affect the cost of tea in China.
Should we worry about the beavers about to lose their dental insurance?
 :o  ::)  ;)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 04, 2020, 08:12:54 AM
I hear the cold weather will affect the cost of tea in China.
Should we worry about the beavers about to lose their dental insurance?
 :o  ::)  ;)

This makes about as much sense as your other posts.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 04, 2020, 09:31:14 AM
I hear the cold weather will affect the cost of tea in China.
Should we worry about the beavers about to lose their dental insurance?
 :o ::) ;)
This makes about as much sense as your other posts.
One would imagine that Dear Sally is extremely embarrassed at her owner's off topic screeds.😷
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: JEdwards on June 04, 2020, 09:49:05 AM
Much of this is from the Atlantic magazine. It is not possible to cut and paste efficiently so you can go to the magazine website and read more for yourself.

Jim Mattis, the former secretary of defense during the first two years of the Trump administration, released an extraordinary statement condemning President Trump’s use of the military against peaceful protesters:
   Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens — much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.
Mattis, who served more than four decades in the Marine Corps and rose to the rank of four-star general before he was chosen by Trump to lead the Pentagon, wrote that the nation is seeing the results of three years “without mature leadership”:
   Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people —does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
   Mattis’s dissatisfaction with Trump was no secret inside the Pentagon. But after his resignation, he argued publicly—and to great criticism—that it would be inappropriate and counterproductive for a former general, and a former Cabinet official, to criticize a sitting president. Doing so, he said, would threaten the apolitical nature of the military. When I interviewed him last year on this subject, he said, “When you leave an administration over clear policy differences, you need to give the people who are still there as much opportunity as possible to defend the country. They still have the responsibility of protecting this great big experiment of ours.” He did add, however: “There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”
   That period is now definitively over. Mattis reached the conclusion this past weekend that the American experiment is directly threatened by the actions of the president he once served. In his statement, Mattis makes it clear that the president’s response to the police killing of George Floyd, and the ensuing protests, triggered this public condemnation.
   “When I joined the military, some 50 years ago,” he writes, “I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”
   He goes on to implicitly criticize the current secretary of defense, Mark Esper, and other senior officials as well. “We must reject any thinking of our cities as a ‘battlespace’ that our uniformed military is called upon to ‘dominate.’ At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to Them.
    We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.
   Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
I can't believe Mattis has already forgotten about the murder of Floyd and tried to make this unique national moment about something else.
You know, I get that much of the criticism and the defense of the president flows from the increasing tribalism in our society.  But does it give you pause at all to hear such sharp criticism from Jim Mattis?  He's obviously not a liberal hack; he was chosen by the president to lead the defense department and served in that capacity for nearly two years.  He has risked his life to serve his country, and he obviously knows something about appropriate and inappropriate use of our armed forces.  Yes, I know, he resigned over a policy disagreement with the president, but I still find it alarming that someone of Mattis' stature, intelligence, and discipline would find it necessary to voice such sharp public criticism.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 04, 2020, 10:04:33 AM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not.


I would ask you after hearing from your wife, "Why didn't you tell me that Don's wife was also there?" Or, "Why did you give us the impression that Don was the only one there?"


We can certainly ask the evangelists, "Why didn't you tell me about the other women?" "Why did you include only one angel?" "Why didn't you say anything about the earthquake? That would have helped explain how the stone was moved."


There has been such nitpicking about what was used to disperse the crowd. To untrained folks, the explosions we saw on TV looked like it could have been tear gas.
Emphasis added.


So, since to the untrained eye it looked like it could have been tear gas, therefore we should treat the officials who directed the response to the crowd as guilty of having used tear gas? Is this the level of discourse we advocate, if someone looks guilty they must be treated as guilty, never mind what actually happened.


I remember after the Baltimore riots in 2015 Fox News was doing some street interviews and there was a disturbance nearby. A Black man running from the police was shot. Witnesses interviewed by Fox News immediately testified that the police had shot the unarmed Black man. It looked like that. So were the police again guilty of shooting an unarmed Black man (he was not seriously injured)? It kinda looked that way so by your standards they were guilty. Further investigation, interviewing other witnesses, the police officers involved, other video, etc. determined that what actually happened was that the Black man had the gun (illegally) saw the police and started running. In his flight, he dropped the gun and it went off slightly injuring him. But to the untrained eye, at first glance it looked like another police shooting of an unarmed Black man. So should that be how it is regarded and reported?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 04, 2020, 10:12:44 AM
Back to the topic at hand:

So if "Black Lives Matter," and if all these protests are because of George Floyd's murder, then does THIS black life matter?  where are the protests?  Where are the riots and outrage over his death?  Why was HE just a 30 second spot on most news reports yesterday, as opposed to the media's new darling that replaced Covid-19?

The difference?  It was a retired black cop killed by black thugs, and video'd while he lay there bleeding to death, all to protect the shop of other black citizens in north St. Louis.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html

I'm deeply troubled by the constant selective moral outrage exhibited in our society, portrayed by the mainstream media, and by those posters here who claim to be the true champions of equality, liberty, and rights. 

Or to put it another way - from Mark Levin:  "Several law-abiding African Americans have been murdered by rioters, including David Dorn and David Patrick Underwood. I looked at LeBron James’s twitter site. He says nothing about them. In fact, the death of these and other African Americans, as well as those beaten by rioters, and black owned shops looted and burned, are all but ignored by the Black Lives Matter movement and their celebrity advocates. The same with top national Democrats, such as Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer. And the same with many media figures and commentators. Why is that? Not only do all lives matter, but all black lives matter." 

https://www.facebook.com/marklevinshow/posts/10158564591288832
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 04, 2020, 10:26:38 AM
An observation: some are so concerned that the right kind of gas has to be in the report or the report is a lie, yet, when discrepancies in scriptures, like the number of women or angels at the tomb, the response is often, "It doesn't really matter."

If I am at a family gathering, and I later tell someone that my cousin Don was there and my wife tells someone else that Don and his wife were there, is there a discrepancy?  Of course not.  I was not saying that ONLY Don was there; I merely chose to mention only him for some other reason, perhaps because of something he said to me.  So, if one evangelist in speaking of the empty tomb mentions an angel and his words, and another evangelist mentions multiple angels being present, is that really a discrepancy?  Of course not.


I would ask you after hearing from your wife, "Why didn't you tell me that Don's wife was also there?" Or, "Why did you give us the impression that Don was the only one there?"

I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.

Quote
There has been such nitpicking about what was used to disperse the crowd. To untrained folks, the explosions we saw on TV looked like it could have been tear gas.

To untrained folks, you look a lot like the officer that killed George Floyd.

Not really, just making a point.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2020, 11:44:01 AM
Should we worry about the beavers about to lose their dental insurance?

The dentists in Portland have all been closed until there a cure for COVID-19. So, no.

 ;)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 04, 2020, 03:19:41 PM
I just heard that the awful, unctuous, and vile “Rev.” Al Sharpton will be speaking at Mr, Floyd’s funeral. I am in turns saddened and angered by that. Because justice is justice, and that bar sinister individual has blood on his hands. He is directly responsible for the death of Harry Christ Jr.

Those of us who lived and ministered in the NY area  in the late 1980s will recall what that offspring of a female canid did with Tawana Brawley case and in agitating antisemitism in Crown Heights. As long as he is seen as a legitimate voice in these matters, it will be hard to listen.

And don’t give me some garbage about his evolving and mellowing. He has never to my knowledge repented of his crimes.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 04, 2020, 03:29:02 PM
I just heard that the awful, unctuous, and vile “Rev.” Al Sharpton will be speaking at Mr, Floyd’s funeral. I am in turns saddened and angered by that. Because justice is justice, and that bar sinister individual has blood on his hands. He is directly responsible for the death of Harry Christ Jr.

Those of us who lived and ministered in the NY area  in the late 1980s will recall what that offspring of a female canid did with Tawana Brawley case and in agitating antisemitism in Crown Heights. As long as he is seen as a legitimate voice in these matters, it will be hard to listen.

And don’t give me some garbage about his evolving and mellowing. He has never to my knowledge repented of his crimes.
But you see, progressives are all about uniting us in this difficult time, unlike those meanies who only seek to divide and exacerbate tensions. What could be more unifying, inspiring, and healing than the presence and voice of Al Sharpton?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 04, 2020, 03:36:53 PM
I just heard that the awful, unctuous, and vile “Rev.” Al Sharpton will be speaking at Mr, Floyd’s funeral. I am in turns saddened and angered by that. Because justice is justice, and that bar sinister individual has blood on his hands. He is directly responsible for the death of Harry Christ Jr.

Those of us who lived and ministered in the NY area  in the late 1980s will recall what that offspring of a female canid did with Tawana Brawley case and in agitating antisemitism in Crown Heights. As long as he is seen as a legitimate voice in these matters, it will be hard to listen.

And don’t give me some garbage about his evolving and mellowing. He has never to my knowledge repented of his crimes.
But you see, progressives are all about uniting us in this difficult time, unlike those meanies who only seek to divide and exacerbate tensions. What could be more unifying, inspiring, and healing than the presence and voice of Al Sharpton?

I know. I do not blame the family at this time of tragedy. But someone involved with the planning should have had the moral courage to say, "**** off, *******, we don't need your lying bloodstained hands anywhere near here." But instead, his presence will alienate, among others, police. Because his actions led to the death of an innocent cop.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2020, 04:15:27 PM
FWIW, I am in agreement concerning Mr. Sharpton. He was the cause of riots, bringing outsiders to the NewJersey town Where I lived. There had been a tragic shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white cop. Sharpton And a couple of other opportunists used the tragedy and our town for their own purposes, some of which were not particularly honorable. I thought some of the things uncovered about him over the years would have sent him into deep exile but I am not a good predictor on such matters.
Still, the family has a right to choose him if they wish.
This too, will pass.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 04, 2020, 04:26:54 PM
FWIW, I am in agreement concerning Mr. Sharpton. He was the cause of riots, bringing outsiders to the NewJersey town Where I lived. There had been a tragic shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white cop. Sharpton And a couple of other opportunists used the tragedy and our town for their own purposes, some of which were not particularly honorable. I thought some of the things uncovered about him over the years would have sent him into deep exile but I am not a good predictor on such matters.
Still, the family has a right to choose him if they wish.
This too, will pass.
It's worth a lot. Interesting that two of vilest individuals in the Public Square began their rise to power and attention at the same time and place. 1980s NYC has a lot to answer for!
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on June 04, 2020, 04:33:16 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael
The point is that the story was reported with a deliberate slant. Nobody erred on the side of making the officials look better than they were. They all erred in the side of making the protesters look more innocent and more mistreated than they were.

The point is that the President personally orchestrated the entire event after his initial speech calling for martial law for the purpose of a religious photo op.  Everyone else in this was a "bit player," including the church, including the people moved, including the police and armed forces, and including the Bible. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 04, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
The gas that was fired to clear everyone off the area in front of St. John's Church was NOT tear gas (so Acting Chief Monahan was telling the truth). It was another crowd control gas:
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd (https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd)

Excerpt:
Quote
A paper in the British Medical Journal about riot control talks about different gas canisters.

Both natural OC and Tear Gas, which is an artificial compound that goes by the acronyms CS and CN gas, cause the same symptoms and have similar toxicity and health risks, according to the doctors writing that study.

The study shares that significant clinical effects are not anticipated when people come in contact with OC, CS or CN gas.

Peace,
Michael

I doubt that many of those gathered there really understood the distinction in the moment.
I think you're right. That's why they called it "tear gas," thus bringing down the scorn and opprobrium of people who would never have made such a clumsy mistake.  :)

Peace,
Michael
The point is that the story was reported with a deliberate slant. Nobody erred on the side of making the officials look better than they were. They all erred in the side of making the protesters look more innocent and more mistreated than they were.

The point is that the President personally orchestrated the entire event after his initial speech calling for martial law for the purpose of a religious photo op.  Everyone else in this was a "bit player," including the church, including the people moved, including the police and armed forces, and including the Bible. 

Dave Benke
I don't think that was Mollie's or my point. But I don't doubt it is probably true. He wanted to be seen preserving what the protesters wanted to be seen destroying. Lots of symbol-hijacking on both sides. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2020, 04:46:57 PM
Mr. Sharpton, like the President, lives on creating or profiting from conflict. Maybe he has “mellowed”, but his days in our town were very painful and did not help us deal with the tragedy.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Robert Johnson on June 04, 2020, 07:09:05 PM
FWIW, I am in agreement concerning Mr. Sharpton. He was the cause of riots, bringing outsiders to the NewJersey town Where I lived. There had been a tragic shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white cop. Sharpton And a couple of other opportunists used the tragedy and our town for their own purposes, some of which were not particularly honorable. I thought some of the things uncovered about him over the years would have sent him into deep exile but I am not a good predictor on such matters.
Still, the family has a right to choose him if they wish.
This too, will pass.
It's worth a lot. Interesting that two of vilest individuals in the Public Square began their rise to power and attention at the same time and place. 1980s NYC has a lot to answer for!

No one in NYC in the last 50 years has been as vile as Al Sharpton.  He has actual blood on his hands in the Crown Heights riots.  And I don't think he has paid a nickel of the judgement against him for slandering the NY state officials in the Tawana Brawley fiasco. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 04, 2020, 08:02:02 PM
FWIW, I am in agreement concerning Mr. Sharpton. He was the cause of riots, bringing outsiders to the NewJersey town Where I lived. There had been a tragic shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white cop. Sharpton And a couple of other opportunists used the tragedy and our town for their own purposes, some of which were not particularly honorable. I thought some of the things uncovered about him over the years would have sent him into deep exile but I am not a good predictor on such matters.
Still, the family has a right to choose him if they wish.
This too, will pass.
It's worth a lot. Interesting that two of vilest individuals in the Public Square began their rise to power and attention at the same time and place. 1980s NYC has a lot to answer for!

No one in NYC in the last 50 years has been as vile as Al Sharpton.  He has actual blood on his hands in the Crown Heights riots.  And I don't think he has paid a nickel of the judgement against him for slandering the NY state officials in the Tawana Brawley fiasco.

Oh, I think The Donald gives Rev. Al a serious run for his money. But yeah, there are actual bodies on his lies.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 04, 2020, 08:14:05 PM
Mr. Sharpton, like the President, lives on creating or profiting from conflict. Maybe he has “mellowed”, but his days in our town were very painful and did not help us deal with the tragedy.
It was very delightful and encouraging for Rev Austin to speak forcefully and truthfully about Al Sharpton (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7478.msg479930#msg479930)


In the spirit of continued collegiality, his post above has been improved through the use of strike through.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 04, 2020, 08:18:39 PM
Mr. Sharpton, like the President, lives on creating or profiting from conflict. Maybe he has “mellowed”, but his days in our town were very painful and did not help us deal with the tragedy.
It was very delightful and encouraging for Rev Austin to speak forcefully and truthfully about Al Sharpton (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7478.msg479930#msg479930)


In the spirit of continued collegiality, his post above has been improved through the use of strike through.
my
James- I am not presenting this as clinching proof- but consider the fact that Charles and I, who disagree often, vehemently, and snarkily, find ourselves more or less in agreement. It should at least give you pause.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J.L. Precup on June 04, 2020, 08:46:17 PM
Another retired Marine Corps General chimes in.

"[Retired Marine Corp General John] Allen — who retired from the military in 2013 and is now president of the Brookings Institution — was particularly struck by the juxtaposition of Trump’s claim to be “an ally of peaceful protesters” and the removal of those peaceful protesters to clear the street in front of St. John’s Church.

“Fully equipped riot police and troops violently, and without provocation, set upon the peaceful demonstrators there, manhandling and beating many of them, employing flash-bangs, riot-control agents, and pepper spray throughout,” he wrote. “These demonstrators had done nothing to warrant such an attack. Media who were watching over the scene craned their cameras to try to understand what had happened to justify this violence, until it became clear for all to see. The riot police had waded into these nonviolent American citizens — who were protesting massive social injustice — with the sole purpose of clearing the area around St. John’s Episcopal Church, on the other side of the park, so the self-proclaimed 'ally of peaceful protesters,' Donald Trump, could pose there for a photo-op.”

Allen’s essay echoed a statement issued Wednesday by former Secretary of Defense James Mattis, who said he was “angry and appalled” at the White House’s response to the protests."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 04, 2020, 10:22:16 PM
Mr. Sharpton, like the President, lives on creating or profiting from conflict. Maybe he has “mellowed”, but his days in our town were very painful and did not help us deal with the tragedy.
It was very delightful and encouraging for Rev Austin to speak forcefully and truthfully about Al Sharpton (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=7478.msg479930#msg479930)


In the spirit of continued collegiality, his post above has been improved through the use of strike through.
my
James- I am not presenting this as clinching proof- but consider the fact that Charles and I, who disagree often, vehemently, and snarkily, find ourselves more or less in agreement. It should at least give you pause.
With all due respect Deacon Hummel ... at times I do disagree with the President .. however this is not one of those times.  I do not believe that the demonstrators were removed for the alleged photo op ... they were removed to establish a larger perimeter around the White House and because the curfew established necessitated the removal to comply with the terms of the curfew.


As to why you agree with Rev Austin, I'll leave that inconsistency up to you and he to resolve that problem.😇
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 05, 2020, 12:44:07 AM
It should at least give you pause.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RandyBosch on June 05, 2020, 09:10:58 AM
A very moving memorial service/funeral for George Floyd in Minnesota.
Very fortunate that Governor Walz's orders requiring social distancing and severely limiting attendees in churches and literally eliminating funerals for even the smallest of families has ended.
Oh, wait...
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 05, 2020, 10:38:28 AM
I listened to Ben Shapiro while driving to Valpo yesterday and I think he made a very important point about the discussions surrounding the handling of the protesters. While he supports and respects Mattis and often has harsh things to say about Trump, Shapiro made the point that Mattis and many other commentators were sweeping the context scale of the event under the rug by constantly treating the protests as peaceful and the violence as the work of a small percentage of agitators, as though the president were letting a few people throwing rocks and bottles define the protests in general. The problem with that interpretation is the 45 million Americans were under officially enforced curfew for many days in a row due to out of control rioting and looting around the nation-- that doesn't happen because a small number of people were throwing things and a few stores were being trashed. That happens when organized, violent people seek to take control, and law enforcement is not able to protect the citizens from chaos. Either that or when many big city mayors and governors panic and demonstrate themselves unfit for office. Any attempt to downplay the wholesale destruction and violence of a movement that forced a large percentage of the country into mandated curfew is simply myopic. 

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Norman Teigen on June 05, 2020, 10:43:56 AM
Trump scoffed at Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis.  Frey's interview with Michael Barbarro of the NY Times Daily podcast  sets to rest any doubts about Frey's capabilities.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 05, 2020, 10:49:59 AM
I listened to Ben Shapiro while driving to Valpo yesterday and I think he made a very important point about the discussions surrounding the handling of the protesters. While he supports and respects Mattis and often has harsh things to say about Trump, Shapiro made the point that Mattis and many other commentators were sweeping the context scale of the event under the rug by constantly treating the protests as peaceful and the violence as the work of a small percentage of agitators, as though the president were letting a few people throwing rocks and bottles define the protests in general. The problem with that interpretation is the 45 million Americans were under officially enforced curfew for many days in a row due to out of control rioting and looting around the nation-- that doesn't happen because a small number of people were throwing things and a few stores were being trashed. That happens when organized, violent people seek to take control, and law enforcement is not able to protect the citizens from chaos. Either that or when many big city mayors and governors panic and demonstrate themselves unfit for office. Any attempt to downplay the wholesale destruction and violence of a movement that forced a large percentage of the country into mandated curfew is simply myopic.

Let's also not ignore that occupying space that is not yours to occupy is violence.  Yes, it is trespass, but when it is done by people whose members, in whatever small number, have burned a church and buildings on the WH grounds and attempted to scale the fence onto WH property, it is also force.  It is intended to intimidate and threaten.  When the police say "you cannot be here, in this place, which we are responsible for and control, at this time," and people refuse to leave, that is a show of force.

If you come into my home and I ask you to leave and you refuse, I will remove you.  If you say I initiated violence, you are a fool and a liar.  The people claiming that those who refuse to leave when ordered to do so by the authorities are "peaceful" are likewise.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 05, 2020, 10:56:03 AM
A very moving memorial service/funeral for George Floyd in Minnesota.
Very fortunate that Governor Walz's orders requiring social distancing and severely limiting attendees in churches and literally eliminating funerals for even the smallest of families has ended.
Oh, wait...

Yes, we had a funeral yesterday too.  Limited to 25% capacity (meaning, since the deceased was a life-long member who was well-loved in church and community, that some who wished to attend could not do so), with proper social distancing required, and no fellowship time allowed.  Several people mentioned the incongruity. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 05, 2020, 11:03:17 AM
A very moving memorial service/funeral for George Floyd in Minnesota.
Very fortunate that Governor Walz's orders requiring social distancing and severely limiting attendees in churches and literally eliminating funerals for even the smallest of families has ended.
Oh, wait...
Where is the righteous indignation from those fearful of reestablishing safe and prudent worship services ... awaiting explanation why there is no hue and cry for the safety of those who attended the funeral. 😶
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 05, 2020, 12:09:23 PM
The Minneapolis Star Tribune checked the capacity of the Frank Lindquist Sanctuary at North Central University:
Quote
One of the challenges of staging the Minneapolis gathering and the others is working within social distancing rules in place to restrict the spread of the novel coronavirus.

North Central’s sanctuary seats roughly 1,000 and can expand capacity by another 2,000 or so because of the nearby gymnasium and other adjacent space, Hagan said.

Under an executive order from Gov. Tim Walz, this type of gathering appears to fall under these conditions: organizers must ensure a minimum of 6 feet of physical distance between households, and occupancy must not exceed 25% of normal capacity as determined by the fire marshal, with a maximum of 250 people in a single, self-contained space.

Hagan said the memorial will resemble more of “a small family event,” and he is confident the school can adhere to the social distancing restrictions.

I saw the ceremony (it was on at least four local channels and on national cables MSNBC and Fox; I didn't check out CNN). There did not appear to be more than 250 in the sanctuary, most were masked, but they didn't all keep apart. A large overflow crowd attended outside by CCTV (I assume--I don;t know for sure that that was the technology used).

Rev. Sharpton was particularly careful to keep distancing, wearing a mask until his turn to speak, and even then continuing to wear gloves).

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on June 05, 2020, 05:49:23 PM
No justice, no peace – God’s justice, God’s peace……………………

“No justice, no peace”. We hear that every day. And I understand that heartfelt cry because I want both justice and peace. I do not have a lot of confidence, however, in human justice. But those charged with the murder of Mr. Floyd must be given a fair trial and, if convicted, the appropriate sentence. Protests continue everywhere, including Fort Wayne. My daughter is there every day working in the first aid tent and helping those who need medical attention. May there be justice, even faulty human justice, for George Floyd.

But this has me thinking about the Gospel from a different angle. Not about human justice but about Divine justice. We do not have peace with God without justice. That justice was fully delivered not on we who deserve no mercy but upon God’s own perfect, innocent Son at Calvary. There all the penalty of Divine justice was poured out on Jesus. His Blood was shed, His body pierced, His life extinguished. Not ours. And yet He did not remain in the tomb but rose and in His Resurrection God declared that justice was fully satisfied and that He is at peace with our fractured and broken human race. Justice accomplished, peace declared.

May the Lord help us as individuals, as His Church and as a society to know His peace won through His justice. And may we seek justice and peace in our world not just through laws and courts but through the Blessed Word and Sacrament
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 09, 2020, 10:32:43 AM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 09, 2020, 12:11:48 PM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
The public funds being spent on investigating, arresting, incarceration, trials and building renovations would have been far better spent defending the building. The spineless decisions of those in Minneapolis sadly encouraged the violence witnessed nationwide.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 12:44:04 PM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
The public funds being spent on investigating, arresting, incarceration, trials and building renovations would have been far better spent defending the building. The spineless decisions of those in Minneapolis sadly encouraged the violence witnessed nationwide.


What a message it would have sent if the police killed some more people in order to save a building?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 09, 2020, 12:55:08 PM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
The public funds being spent on investigating, arresting, incarceration, trials and building renovations would have been far better spent defending the building. The spineless decisions of those in Minneapolis sadly encouraged the violence witnessed nationwide.
What a message it would have sent if the police killed some more people in order to save a building?
That rioting and destruction of property is unacceptable.

What message was sent by acquiescing to such barbaric behavior? 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 01:05:47 PM
Pastor Stoffregen writes:
What a message it would have sent if the police killed some more people in order to save a building?

And James responds:
That rioting and destruction of property is unacceptable.
What message was sent by acquiescing to such barbaric behavior?

I comment:
For heaven‘s sake, James and others; we do not endorse riotous behavior. But if someone is doing damage to the building, or throws a rock through a window, the response of the police should not be to shoot and kill them. Do you think that is the proper response to “barbaric” behavior?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 01:07:16 PM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
The public funds being spent on investigating, arresting, incarceration, trials and building renovations would have been far better spent defending the building. The spineless decisions of those in Minneapolis sadly encouraged the violence witnessed nationwide.
What a message it would have sent if the police killed some more people in order to save a building?
That rioting and destruction of property is unacceptable.

What message was sent by acquiescing to such barbaric behavior?


So, the punishment for rioting and destruction of property is death? Without a trial? Because a police officer with a gun can shoot people without fear of reprisal? All that plays into the narrative of police brutality. It cannot be changed with even more police brutality. It's like a cartoon I saw many years ago. A father is spanking his son over his knee while telling him, "How many times have I told you not to hit other people!"


The message that was sent is that the police will not stoop to such barbaric behaviors. As a deputy sheriff told me, they are trained to try and reduce the tension in a situation (especially when called to domestic disturbances). They are to be a calming presence, rather than raise the anxiety levels even higher.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 09, 2020, 01:18:52 PM
However did you manage to come up with that ridiculous conclusion, Brian?

"2019 Minnesota Statutes

609.066 AUTHORIZED USE OF DEADLY FORCE BY PEACE OFFICERS.

§Subdivision 1.Deadly force defined. For the purposes of this section, "deadly force" means force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing, or which the actor should reasonably know creates a substantial risk of causing, death or great bodily harm. The intentional discharge of a firearm, other than a firearm loaded with less lethal munitions and used by a peace officer within the scope of official duties, in the direction of another person, or at a vehicle in which another person is believed to be, constitutes deadly force. "Less lethal munitions" means projectiles which are designed to stun, temporarily incapacitate, or cause temporary discomfort to a person. "Peace officer" has the meaning given in section 626.84, subdivision 1.

Subd. 2.Use of deadly force. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 609.06 or 609.065, the use of deadly force by a peace officer in the line of duty is justified only when necessary:

(1) to protect the peace officer or another from apparent death or great bodily harm;

(2) to effect the arrest or capture, or prevent the escape, of a person whom the peace officer knows or has reasonable grounds to believe has committed or attempted to commit a felony involving the use or threatened use of deadly force; or

(3) to effect the arrest or capture, or prevent the escape, of a person whom the officer knows or has reasonable grounds to believe has committed or attempted to commit a felony if the officer reasonably believes that the person will cause death or great bodily harm if the person's apprehension is delayed.

Subd. 3.No defense. This section and sections 609.06, 609.065 and 629.33 may not be used as a defense in a civil action brought by an innocent third party."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 02:16:57 PM
Quote The statutes, Pastor Kirchner, to anyone who has been brutalized by the police or seen others brutalized by the police. See where the quoting gets you.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 09, 2020, 02:52:55 PM
Quote The statutes, Pastor Kirchner, to anyone who has been brutalized by the police or seen others brutalized by the police. See where the quoting gets you.

I quoted the statute to Brian, in response to his erroneous conclusion/question, "So, the punishment for rioting and destruction of property is death?"

Heckling from the peanut gallery is not helpful.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 09, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Gradually the police, the BCA, and the BATF will sort through the hours of video and tips from the public and identify as many of the rioters and looters as they can. Yesterday one of the first was arrested for breaking into, looting, and helping to burn the 3rd Precinct Building. He's a Saint Paul man, aged 23, who had recently moved from Georgia and Florida:
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/ (https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/08/st-paul-man-wore-stolen-police-gear-days-after-third-precinct-burned-charges-say/)

Peace,
Michael
The public funds being spent on investigating, arresting, incarceration, trials and building renovations would have been far better spent defending the building. The spineless decisions of those in Minneapolis sadly encouraged the violence witnessed nationwide.


What a message it would have sent if the police killed some more people in order to save a building?

Let's torch your house and ask that question again, shall we?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2020, 03:01:46 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 09, 2020, 03:09:47 PM
Quote The statutes, Pastor Kirchner, to anyone who has been brutalized by the police or seen others brutalized by the police. See where the quoting gets you.
The experience of trauma clouds rational judgment rather than clarifying. That’s why potential jurors are often excused from a case if it concerns a crime like the one they were victimized by. But irrational emotion can be very persuasive.

“In your mind, Mrs. Smith, would your beautiful little granddaughter be alive today if the sunscreen has not given her cancer?” That will sway people even if the disagreement is about whether sunscreen cause cancer and Mrs. Smith failed remedial chemistry and biology. She is grieving. She must be listened to, and they only way to prove you aren’t heartless is to acquiesce to her views on cancer research. A man is brutally murdered. There is grief and anger. All actual data about crime and policing, as basic principles of law and justice must take a back seat. The angry people are correct because they have a reason to be angry. Not to do what they want is to declare their lives don’t matter, at least if you listen to the mob.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 09, 2020, 03:22:50 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”

Okay, now go back and read the statute, Charles.   ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 06:01:53 PM
Quote The statutes, Pastor Kirchner, to anyone who has been brutalized by the police or seen others brutalized by the police. See where the quoting gets you.

I quoted the statute to Brian, in response to his erroneous conclusion/question, "So, the punishment for rioting and destruction of property is death?"

Heckling from the peanut gallery is not helpful.


So, what's your answer to my question? Can the police kill people who are rioting and/or destroying property? From the statute you quoted the answer seems to be, "Maybe." Perhaps you can add some clarification.


An additional question comes to mind: Even if the police could legally kill to stop rioters and looters, should they?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 09, 2020, 06:06:32 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”


I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.


I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.


I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 10, 2020, 03:53:47 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”
I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property. 《Emphasis added》
That rabbit hole can be dealt with another day  .. Roman's clearly gives the government the power and responsibilities to create and enforce laws. 

It is becoming more and more apparent that you have no spine for the enforcement or law.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 10, 2020, 04:59:16 PM
Coach Tony Dungy’s message to America. (He quarterbacked for the Minnesota Gophers.)

“As I have watched the events in Minneapolis unfold the last few days I have wondered & prayed about how I should respond. Below are my thoughts. I hope you read the whole thing because the final thought is most important. Romans 12:21”

“America is in a very sad place today. We have seen a man die senselessly, at the hands of the very people who are supposed to be protecting our citizens. We have seen people protest this death by destroying property and dreams of people in their own community, the very people they are protesting for. We have many people pointing fingers of blame, painting the opposite side with a broad brush. We have anger and bitterness winning out over logic and reason. We have distrust and prejudice winning out over love and respect.

What happened to George Floyd was inexcusable and it should never happen. Justice needs to be served, but in seeking justice we can’t fall into the trap of prejudging every police officer we see. What started out as peaceful protests have devolved into arson and looting and that should never happen, either. Yes there should be protest. But we do not have license to perform criminal acts because we’re angry.

Today we are a divided country. We’re divided racially, politically, and socio-economically. And Satan is laughing at us because that is exactly what he wants. Dysfunction, mistrust, and hatred help this kingdom flourish.

Well, what is the answer then? I believe it has to start with those of us who claim to be Christians. We have to come to the forefront and demonstrate the qualities of the One we claim to follow, Jesus Christ. We can’t be silent. As Dr. King said many years ago, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere!” But we can’t go forward with judgmental, bitter spirits. We need to be proactive, but do it in the spirit of trying to help make things better. And it can’t be just the African American churches. It has to be ALL churches taking a stand and saying “We are going to be on the forefront of meaningful dialogue and meaningful change.” We have to be willing to speak the truth in love but we have to recognize that we are not fighting against other people. We are fighting against Satan and his kingdom of spiritual darkness.

In the words of the Apostle Paul, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Roman 12:21 NIV “
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 10, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
Coach Tony Dungy’s message to America. (He quarterbacked for the Minnesota Gophers.)

“As I have watched the events in Minneapolis unfold the last few days I have wondered & prayed about how I should respond. Below are my thoughts. I hope you read the whole thing because the final thought is most important. Romans 12:21”

“America is in a very sad place today. We have seen a man die senselessly, at the hands of the very people who are supposed to be protecting our citizens. We have seen people protest this death by destroying property and dreams of people in their own community, the very people they are protesting for. We have many people pointing fingers of blame, painting the opposite side with a broad brush. We have anger and bitterness winning out over logic and reason. We have distrust and prejudice winning out over love and respect.

What happened to George Floyd was inexcusable and it should never happen. Justice needs to be served, but in seeking justice we can’t fall into the trap of prejudging every police officer we see. What started out as peaceful protests have devolved into arson and looting and that should never happen, either. Yes there should be protest. But we do not have license to perform criminal acts because we’re angry.

Today we are a divided country. We’re divided racially, politically, and socio-economically. And Satan is laughing at us because that is exactly what he wants. Dysfunction, mistrust, and hatred help this kingdom flourish.

Well, what is the answer then? I believe it has to start with those of us who claim to be Christians. We have to come to the forefront and demonstrate the qualities of the One we claim to follow, Jesus Christ. We can’t be silent. As Dr. King said many years ago, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere!” But we can’t go forward with judgmental, bitter spirits. We need to be proactive, but do it in the spirit of trying to help make things better. And it can’t be just the African American churches. It has to be ALL churches taking a stand and saying “We are going to be on the forefront of meaningful dialogue and meaningful change.” We have to be willing to speak the truth in love but we have to recognize that we are not fighting against other people. We are fighting against Satan and his kingdom of spiritual darkness.

In the words of the Apostle Paul, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Roman 12:21 NIV “

You gotta love Tony Dungy. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: David Garner on June 10, 2020, 05:49:13 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”


I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.


I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.


I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property.

Just as a thought experiment.  You are inside your house.  Rioters are torching it.  You are going to make sure that everyone gets out of the house "safely."

What does "safely" mean?  What do you think the rioters are going to do to you and your family when you get out?  Apologize?  Thank you for your hasty exit so they can continue burning the place to the ground?  Make a path so you can walk to a nearby location to call someone to pick you up?  Maybe offer to drive you there?  I mean, you are certainly free to martyr yourself.  But let's be honest.  "Safely" is a utopian pipe dream.  They aren't there to play nice or they wouldn't be burning your house with you inside it.

I know for certain if there is looting and rioting in my neighborhood and they try to burn my house with my family inside, I will shoot absolutely as many of them as I can.  I can just about guarantee my neighbors will as well.  But that's probably why nobody ever loots and riots in my neighborhood.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 10, 2020, 06:21:36 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”


I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.


I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.


I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property.

Just as a thought experiment.  You are inside your house.  Rioters are torching it.  You are going to make sure that everyone gets out of the house "safely."

What does "safely" mean?  What do you think the rioters are going to do to you and your family when you get out?  Apologize?  Thank you for your hasty exit so they can continue burning the place to the ground?  Make a path so you can walk to a nearby location to call someone to pick you up?  Maybe offer to drive you there?  I mean, you are certainly free to martyr yourself.  But let's be honest.  "Safely" is a utopian pipe dream.  They aren't there to play nice or they wouldn't be burning your house with you inside it.

I know for certain if there is looting and rioting in my neighborhood and they try to burn my house with my family inside, I will shoot absolutely as many of them as I can.  I can just about guarantee my neighbors will as well.  But that's probably why nobody ever loots and riots in my neighborhood.

Aside from the violent perpetrators outside who started the fire, one also has to contend with the dangers of working inside an actively burning building without proper protection.  Going back into a burning, smoke-filled building is very risky.  Fire fighters will not be able to conduct search and rescue operations if those outside and surrounding the home are armed and violent.  They will not be able to save those in danger until the scene is secure.  It makes sense.  We are trained in fire fighting not to be martyrs.  It only adds more victims for those following you to rescue, and thus places more at risk.  Civilians, no matter how well intended, are facing a twofold barrier to actually effecting the rescue of the occupants: 1.) the people outside who started the fire and continue to attack the people, and 2.) the danger of the actual fire and smoke.  I suspect that any effort without the control of the rioters would be completely fruitless and in vain.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 06:47:31 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”
I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property. 《Emphasis added》
That rabbit hole can be dealt with another day  .. Roman's clearly gives the government the power and responsibilities to create and enforce laws.


And Revelation 13 describes the government as a beast that opposes God and God's people.

Quote
It is becoming more and more apparent that you have no spine for the enforcement or law.

Those trained and authorized should properly enforce the law. At the same time, we believers are called to obey God rather than humans.

Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow women to have abortions? Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow homosexuals to marry? Do you support the enforcement of laws that will punish Christians when their convictions cause them to oppose abortions or same-sex marriages in illegal ways?

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 06:54:49 PM
I know for certain if there is looting and rioting in my neighborhood and they try to burn my house with my family inside, I will shoot absolutely as many of them as I can.  I can just about guarantee my neighbors will as well.  But that's probably why nobody ever loots and riots in my neighborhood.


Do you really think that no one loots and riots in your neighborhood because they fear being shot by the homeowners? I believe that most people don't loot and riot because they are decent people who respect the rights and property of other people.


There was a house in our development, owned by a member of the church, that was broken into and robbed. The thieves knew that he had guns because they tried to use his own tools to break open his gun safe to get at the weapons. Apparently, they were following instructions they had seen on YouTube or something like that; but it wasn't quite the same model safe, so they only made it more difficult for a lock smith to get it open.


Less than a block down the road from our house, there was a police shooting of a suspect of a domestic dispute. At a worship service following that incident, the former chief of police of Yuma, who had served on the force for 33 years, admitted that he had never had to shoot a person. Another worshiper, who had been a sheriff in Montana, said the same thing. They both felt bad for the officer who was forced to take that action.


Our congregation council decided that we would not make the congregation a gun-free zone. Because we have a number of law enforcement and former law enforcement people in the congregation. We didn't mind if they wanted to have a concealed weapon. As I told them, "They not only know how to shoot their weapons, but they've also been trained in how not to shoot them."
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 10, 2020, 07:27:49 PM
And Revelation 13 describes the government as a beast that opposes God and God's people.


It's helpful to keep such passages in proper context. The "beast" in this case is not generic governmental power and authority, but worldly power and political authority that is out of control and clearly abusive.  In this particular case it most likely alludes to Roman dominion.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
And Revelation 13 describes the government as a beast that opposes God and God's people.



It's helpful to keep such passages in proper context. The "beast" in this case is not generic governmental power and authority, but worldly power and political authority that is out of control and clearly abusive.  In this particular case it most likely alludes to Roman dominion.

Paul's statements in Romans were also when Rome was in power - likely the quite evil emperor Nero who had Paul executed. Of course, Paul looked at every arrest and trial as another opportunity to witness to Christ. His own life didn't matter. I don't believe that emperor Domitian at the time of Revelation was as evil and abusive as Nero was.

Any and all governments can become "beastly" and oppose God. A similar image (and the same Greek word is used in the LXX) is given in Daniel about the Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 10, 2020, 08:14:35 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”


I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property.

Just as a thought experiment.  You are inside your house.  Rioters are torching it.  You are going to make sure that everyone gets out of the house "safely."

What does "safely" mean?  What do you think the rioters are going to do to you and your family when you get out?  Apologize?  Thank you for your hasty exit so they can continue burning the place to the ground?  Make a path so you can walk to a nearby location to call someone to pick you up?  Maybe offer to drive you there?  I mean, you are certainly free to martyr yourself.  But let's be honest.  "Safely" is a utopian pipe dream.  They aren't there to play nice or they wouldn't be burning your house with you inside it.

I know for certain if there is looting and rioting in my neighborhood and they try to burn my house with my family inside, I will shoot absolutely as many of them as I can.  I can just about guarantee my neighbors will as well.  But that's probably why nobody ever loots and riots in my neighborhood.

Here's how citizens address anarchy and protect their own, Brian, rather than your fairytale "make sure that everyone in the house got out safely" while you let rioters torch your house.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-business-owner-armed-group-rioters-police
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: readselerttoo on June 10, 2020, 08:19:45 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”
I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property. 《Emphasis added》
That rabbit hole can be dealt with another day  .. Roman's clearly gives the government the power and responsibilities to create and enforce laws.


And Revelation 13 describes the government as a beast that opposes God and God's people.

Quote
It is becoming more and more apparent that you have no spine for the enforcement or law.

Those trained and authorized should properly enforce the law. At the same time, we believers are called to obey God rather than humans.

Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow women to have abortions? Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow homosexuals to marry? Do you support the enforcement of laws that will punish Christians when their convictions cause them to oppose abortions or same-sex marriages in illegal ways?


The specific grounds for Peter’s statement in Acts about obeying God rather than man are limited to those who wish and actively force against the preaching of the Gospel alone.  Peter’s statement is not a general rule for obedience to God over humans.  It is specifically tied to those who act to prevent the preaching of the Gospel.  Sinners even Christian believing sinners are mandated to obey human authority because God instituted it for lawful protection of person(s) and property.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 08:38:03 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”


I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property.

Just as a thought experiment.  You are inside your house.  Rioters are torching it.  You are going to make sure that everyone gets out of the house "safely."

What does "safely" mean?  What do you think the rioters are going to do to you and your family when you get out?  Apologize?  Thank you for your hasty exit so they can continue burning the place to the ground?  Make a path so you can walk to a nearby location to call someone to pick you up?  Maybe offer to drive you there?  I mean, you are certainly free to martyr yourself.  But let's be honest.  "Safely" is a utopian pipe dream.  They aren't there to play nice or they wouldn't be burning your house with you inside it.

I know for certain if there is looting and rioting in my neighborhood and they try to burn my house with my family inside, I will shoot absolutely as many of them as I can.  I can just about guarantee my neighbors will as well.  But that's probably why nobody ever loots and riots in my neighborhood.

Here's how citizens address anarchy and protect their own, Brian, rather than your fairytale "make sure that everyone in the house got out safely" while you let rioters torch your house.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-business-owner-armed-group-rioters-police (https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-business-owner-armed-group-rioters-police)


The question was not about being armed, but about shooting and killing the looters. In addition, those who seek to protect "things" run the risk of losing their lives as David Dorn did.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 10, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Uh, Brian, you have to be armed to shoot ...
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 08:48:12 PM
I hope I would have the grace, and if I did not have it I hope I would pray for it, to say, if someone torchEd my house and the police were on hand, “don’t shoot, a life is more important than a building.”
I'm sure that my first concern would be to make sure that everyone in the house got out safely.

I would hope (as it seems to be happening in Minneapolis) that the police would use surveillance cameras and the testimony of witnesses to identify the guilty parties and arrest and prosecute them. I would leave it to the insurance company to figure out how to replace and rebuild the destroyed property.

I know for certain that I would not be pulling out a gun (cause I don't have any) to shoot those who were burning and looting my property. 《Emphasis added》
That rabbit hole can be dealt with another day  .. Roman's clearly gives the government the power and responsibilities to create and enforce laws.

And Revelation 13 describes the government as a beast that opposes God and God's people.

Quote
It is becoming more and more apparent that you have no spine for the enforcement or law.

Those trained and authorized should properly enforce the law. At the same time, we believers are called to obey God rather than humans.

Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow women to have abortions? Do you support the enforcement of laws that allow homosexuals to marry? Do you support the enforcement of laws that will punish Christians when their convictions cause them to oppose abortions or same-sex marriages in illegal ways?


The specific grounds for Peter’s statement in Acts about obeying God rather than man are limited to those who wish and actively force against the preaching of the Gospel alone.  Peter’s statement is not a general rule for obedience to God over humans.  It is specifically tied to those who act to prevent the preaching of the Gospel.  Sinners even Christian believing sinners are mandated to obey human authority because God instituted it for lawful protection of person(s) and property.


Note: that the issue raised by the religious leaders in Jerusalem was not initially about what they were saying, but what they did: healed the man crippled from birth. What the religious leaders asked: "“By what power or in what name did you do this?” (Acts 4:7). Peter responds by first talking about the good deed that they did in healing this man. Then he talks about Jesus. They couldn't rebut his statements because the evidence was standing in front of them: the healed man (Acts 4:14).


Granted, Peter and John are told to stop speaking and teaching in the name of Jesus. They won't. The crowds were on their side because they also saw the evidence: the healed man.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 10, 2020, 08:50:43 PM
Uh, Brian, you have to be armed to shoot ...


I believe that there is quite a difference between standing with a loaded rifle with the intention of keeping people from robbing a store or burning a house; and raising it up with the intention of killing people - especially those that I've already determined must be guilty.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 10, 2020, 09:28:35 PM
I understand that people certainly have the right to protest and demonstrate. I believe that is even if they are demonstrating against abortion. Does that include the right to vandalize, loot, and burn property?  How about assault or homicide?  What if the intended victim has been designated a public enemy, i.e. a police officer or fireman?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 10, 2020, 09:37:52 PM
Uh, Brian, you have to be armed to shoot ...


I believe that there is quite a difference between standing with a loaded rifle with the intention of keeping people from robbing a store or burning a house; and raising it up with the intention of killing people ...

I don't
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 11, 2020, 11:40:57 AM
From today’s paper, the one nobody here likes. Note the last paragraph:
The country’s top military official apologized on Thursday for taking part in President Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op after authorities used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear the area of peaceful protesters.
   “I should not have been there,” Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a prerecorded video commencement address to National Defense University, reports Helene Cooper. “My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.”
   His first public remarks since Mr. Trump’s photo op, in which federal authorities attacked peaceful protesters so that the president could hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church, are certain to anger the White House, where Mr. Trump has spent the days since the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis taking increasingly tougher stances against the growing movement for change across the country.
   On Wednesday, the president picked another fight with the military, slapping down the Pentagon for considering renaming Army bases named after Confederate officers who fought against the Union in the Civil War.
   The back and forth between Mr. Trump and the Pentagon in recent days is evidence of the deepest civil-military divide since the Vietnam War — except this time, military leaders, after halting steps in the beginning, are now positioning themselves firmly with those calling for change.
   Mr. Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square, current and former military leaders say, has sparked a critical moment of reckoning in the military.
   “As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from,” General Milley said. He said he had been angry about “the senseless and brutal killing of George Floyd,” and repeated his opposition to Mr. Trump’s suggestions that federal troops be deployed nationwide to quell protests.
   General Milley’s friends said that for the past 10 days, he had been agonized about appearing — in the combat fatigues he wears every day to work — behind Mr. Trump during the walk across Lafayette Square, an act that critics said gave a stamp of military approval to the hard-line tactics used to clear the protesters.
   The general believed that he was accompanying Mr. Trump and his entourage to review National Guard troops and other law enforcement personnel outside Lafayette Square, Defense Department officials said.
-0-
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 11, 2020, 12:44:55 PM
From today’s paper, the one nobody here likes. Note the last paragraph:
The country’s top military official apologized on Thursday for taking part in President Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op after authorities used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear the area of peaceful protesters.
   “I should not have been there,” Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a prerecorded video commencement address to National Defense University, reports Helene Cooper. “My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.”
   His first public remarks since Mr. Trump’s photo op, in which federal authorities attacked peaceful protesters so that the president could hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church, are certain to anger the White House, where Mr. Trump has spent the days since the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis taking increasingly tougher stances against the growing movement for change across the country.
   On Wednesday, the president picked another fight with the military, slapping down the Pentagon for considering renaming Army bases named after Confederate officers who fought against the Union in the Civil War.
   The back and forth between Mr. Trump and the Pentagon in recent days is evidence of the deepest civil-military divide since the Vietnam War — except this time, military leaders, after halting steps in the beginning, are now positioning themselves firmly with those calling for change.
   Mr. Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square, current and former military leaders say, has sparked a critical moment of reckoning in the military.
   “As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from,” General Milley said. He said he had been angry about “the senseless and brutal killing of George Floyd,” and repeated his opposition to Mr. Trump’s suggestions that federal troops be deployed nationwide to quell protests.
   General Milley’s friends said that for the past 10 days, he had been agonized about appearing — in the combat fatigues he wears every day to work — behind Mr. Trump during the walk across Lafayette Square, an act that critics said gave a stamp of military approval to the hard-line tactics used to clear the protesters.
   The general believed that he was accompanying Mr. Trump and his entourage to review National Guard troops and other law enforcement personnel outside Lafayette Square, Defense Department officials said.
-0-
I appreciate the fair use quotation rather than the link, because the NYT only lets you view article sp many times per month from any given device.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 11, 2020, 02:33:19 PM
From today’s paper, the one nobody here likes. Note the last paragraph:
The country’s top military official apologized on Thursday for taking part in President Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op after authorities used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear the area of peaceful protesters.
   “I should not have been there,” Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a prerecorded video commencement address to National Defense University, reports Helene Cooper. “My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.”
   His first public remarks since Mr. Trump’s photo op, in which federal authorities attacked peaceful protesters so that the president could hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church, are certain to anger the White House, where Mr. Trump has spent the days since the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis taking increasingly tougher stances against the growing movement for change across the country.
   On Wednesday, the president picked another fight with the military, slapping down the Pentagon for considering renaming Army bases named after Confederate officers who fought against the Union in the Civil War.
   The back and forth between Mr. Trump and the Pentagon in recent days is evidence of the deepest civil-military divide since the Vietnam War — except this time, military leaders, after halting steps in the beginning, are now positioning themselves firmly with those calling for change.
   Mr. Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square, current and former military leaders say, has sparked a critical moment of reckoning in the military.
   “As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from,” General Milley said. He said he had been angry about “the senseless and brutal killing of George Floyd,” and repeated his opposition to Mr. Trump’s suggestions that federal troops be deployed nationwide to quell protests.
   General Milley’s friends said that for the past 10 days, he had been agonized about appearing — in the combat fatigues he wears every day to work — behind Mr. Trump during the walk across Lafayette Square, an act that critics said gave a stamp of military approval to the hard-line tactics used to clear the protesters.
   The general believed that he was accompanying Mr. Trump and his entourage to review National Guard troops and other law enforcement personnel outside Lafayette Square, Defense Department officials said.
-0-
I appreciate the fair use quotation rather than the link, because the NYT only lets you view article sp many times per month from any given device.
However it would contribute greatly to transparency to include the url link in addition to the selective quotations ... in doing so the full context of the quoted material is available.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: wmattsfield on June 11, 2020, 02:37:05 PM
I came across this. Is this representative of the Black Lives Matter movement?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 11, 2020, 03:03:18 PM
As noted, you cannot always get the full text of New York Times articles even if you have the link. In this case however, I think I delivered to you the full text of the article. If not I will try to do so. There are sneaky ways.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 11, 2020, 03:18:54 PM
Here are more grafs, not published in the NYTl “morning briefing,”  but in the newspaper (my emphasis added)
The general believed he was accompanying Mr. Trump and his entourage to review National Guard troops and other law enforcement personnel outside Lafayette Square, Defense Department officials said.
   In the days after the photo op, General Milley to;d Mr. trump that he was angered by what had happened. The two had already exchanged sharp words last Monday, when General Milley engaged the president in a heated discussion in the Oval Office over whether to send active-duty troops into the streets, according to people in the room.
   General Milley argued that the scattered fires and looting in some places were dwarfed by the peaceful protests and should be handled by the states, which command local law enforcement.
   Mr. Trump acquiesced, but he has continued to hold out the threat of sending active-duty troops.
   Last week, Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper called a news conference to announce that he, too, opposed invoking the 1807 Insurrection Act to deploy active-duty troops across the country to quell protests, a line that a number of American military officials said they would not cross.
   The president, aides say, has been furious with both Mr. Esper and General Milley since then. Defense Department officials say they are unsure how long either will last in their respective jobs, but they also note that Mr. Trump can ill afford to go into open warfare with the Pentagon so close to an election.
   Since last Monday, General Milley has spoken with lawmakers, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California and Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, both Democrats. He has also spoken with many of his predecessors, as well as with Republican congressional leaders, according to people with knowledge of the conversations. In most of the exchanges, General Milley said he deeply regretted the park incident.
   A combat veteran who peppers his speech with references to the history of warfare, General Milley has usually gotten along with Mr. Trump, mixing banter and bluntness when he speaks to his boss, officials say. The general went against the wishes of his own father — who fought at Iwo Jima as a Marine — when he joined the Army.
    In the tumultuous hours and days since the walk across Lafayette Park, General Milley has taken pains to mitigate the damage. Two days after the episode, General Milley released a letter that forcefully reminded the troops that their military was supposed to protect the right to freedom of speech. He added a handwritten codicil to his letter, some of it straying outside the margins: “We all committed our lives to the idea that is America — we will stay true to that oath and the American people.”
   During his speech on Thursday at National Defense University, General Milley, after expressing his disgust over the video of the killing of Mr. Floyd, spoke at length about the issue of race, both in the military and in civilian society.
   “The protests that have ensued not only speak to his killing, but also to the centuries of injustice toward African-Americans,” he said. “What we are seeing is the long shadow of our original sin in Jamestown 401 years ago, liberated by the Civil War, but not equal in the eyes of the law until 100 years later in 1965.”
   General Milley called on the military to address issues of systemic racism in the armed forces, where 43 percent of the enlisted troops are people of color but only a tiny handful are in the ranks of senior leadership.
   “The Navy and Marine Corps have no African-Americans serving above the two-star level, and the Army has just one African-American four-star,” he said, referring to officers who are generals and admirals. “We all need to do better.”
-0-

Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: wmattsfield on June 11, 2020, 03:39:01 PM
I came across this. Is this representative of the Black Lives Matter movement?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

And this . . .
https://medium.com/@seattleblmanon3/the-demands-of-the-collective-black-voices-at-free-capitol-hill-to-the-government-of-seattle-ddaee51d3e47
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: J.L. Precup on June 11, 2020, 05:17:44 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 11, 2020, 06:24:02 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 11, 2020, 07:02:20 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
As I read it, Pastor Bohler, Mr. Burce is saying what a Lutheran should have seen and done in the situation. That's all. But it is thought-provoking, which may be why Chaplain Precup posted it.
Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 11, 2020, 07:17:07 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
As I read it, Pastor Bohler, Mr. Burce is saying what a Lutheran should have seen and done in the situation. That's all. But it is thought-provoking, which may be why Chaplain Precup posted it.
Peace,
Michael


Jerome Burce is an ELCA pastor. He's on the board of Crossings, which leads me to suspect that he came out of Seminex.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 11, 2020, 08:38:03 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.
<Emphasis Added>
Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
As I read it, Pastor Bohler, Mr. Burce is saying what a Lutheran should have seen and done in the situation. That's all. But it is thought-provoking, which may be why Chaplain Precup posted it.
Peace,
Michael
Jerome Burce is an ELCA pastor. He's on the board of Crossings, which leads me to suspect that he came out of Seminex.
Which still begs Rev. Bohler’s question (mine as well when I read the post) ... was the policeman a Lutheran ... or as Fr Slusser was this written as a thought provoking piece?


Let it be noted that non LCMS participants also mark church history by referencing Seminex as well.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: John_Hannah on June 11, 2020, 09:01:50 PM
We should not be surprised by General Milley's statement. The American military is decidedly committed to civilian control of the military. This is not new; it goes back to 1789 and the formation of the constitution. It's in our military blood. Little wonder that so many retired Generals have weighed in on that. Bringing our own Armed Forces against United States citizens "ain't going to happen."

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 11, 2020, 10:58:38 PM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
As I read it, Pastor Bohler, Mr. Burce is saying what a Lutheran should have seen and done in the situation. That's all. But it is thought-provoking, which may be why Chaplain Precup posted it.
Peace,
Michael

"Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do."  So who is this Lutheran policeman?  And how would he have been able to do something if he was not one of the four who responded to the call?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 11, 2020, 11:08:42 PM
From today’s paper, the one nobody here likes. Note the last paragraph:
The country’s top military official apologized on Thursday for taking part in President Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op after authorities used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear the area of peaceful protesters.
   “I should not have been there,” Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a prerecorded video commencement address to National Defense University, reports Helene Cooper. “My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.”
   His first public remarks since Mr. Trump’s photo op, in which federal authorities attacked peaceful protesters so that the president could hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church, are certain to anger the White House, where Mr. Trump has spent the days since the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis taking increasingly tougher stances against the growing movement for change across the country.
   On Wednesday, the president picked another fight with the military, slapping down the Pentagon for considering renaming Army bases named after Confederate officers who fought against the Union in the Civil War.
   The back and forth between Mr. Trump and the Pentagon in recent days is evidence of the deepest civil-military divide since the Vietnam War — except this time, military leaders, after halting steps in the beginning, are now positioning themselves firmly with those calling for change.
   Mr. Trump’s walk across Lafayette Square, current and former military leaders say, has sparked a critical moment of reckoning in the military.
   “As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from,” General Milley said. He said he had been angry about “the senseless and brutal killing of George Floyd,” and repeated his opposition to Mr. Trump’s suggestions that federal troops be deployed nationwide to quell protests.
   General Milley’s friends said that for the past 10 days, he had been agonized about appearing — in the combat fatigues he wears every day to work — behind Mr. Trump during the walk across Lafayette Square, an act that critics said gave a stamp of military approval to the hard-line tactics used to clear the protesters.
   The general believed that he was accompanying Mr. Trump and his entourage to review National Guard troops and other law enforcement personnel outside Lafayette Square, Defense Department officials said.
-0-
While searching for other material, this NY Times article (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/trump-milley-military-protests-lafayette-square.html) popped up ... it was available without a pay wall ... as long as one is not surfing in the private/incognito mode of your browser. It may be the source of the above.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 11, 2020, 11:21:51 PM
We should not be surprised by General Milley's statement. The American military is decidedly committed to civilian control of the military. This is not new; it goes back to 1789 and the formation of the constitution. It's in our military blood. Little wonder that so many retired Generals have weighed in on that. Bringing our own Armed Forces against United States citizens "ain't going to happen."

Peace, JOHN
While no one wishes the US Military to be used,  it is appalling that the mayor/governor in Washington State are shirking their responsibilities to maintain law and order.  It’s especially concerning as the lack of riot control in Minneapolis lead to riots in other parts of the country ... including locally. According to a report heard today, residents of the Capitol Hill area are being required by these thugs to show ID to enter their own neighborhood. 


If the US military ends up being used, it sadly reflects the failure of local and state officials to maintain law and order.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 12, 2020, 09:23:01 AM
Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden recently claimed that "George Floyd’s death had bigger impact than MLK assassination."  He based this on the coverage and global response.  I wonder how this will be received by the black community that holds MLK as an unequaled icon of the civil rights movement, even with a federal holiday named after him.  It's seems a bit presumptuous to predict the outcome of history so soon. 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/biden-george-floyds-death-had-more-impact-than-mlk-assassination/



 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 12, 2020, 10:00:31 AM
Of course, silly overstatement in the face of a controversy raging now is so rare among politicians.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 12, 2020, 10:09:39 AM
Of course, silly overstatement in the face of a controversy raging now is so rare among politicians.
I thought that only Trump overstated, or is it now OK only when Democrats overstate?
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 12, 2020, 10:59:14 AM
No, it stinks no matter who does it.
But your guy not only over states, but intentionally lies, and lies, and lies.
And his lies go far beyond the misstatements of other presidents. His lies strike at the very foundations of our democracy and the essential laws of our republic.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: RDPreus on June 12, 2020, 11:26:21 AM
No, it stinks no matter who does it.
But your guy not only over states, but intentionally lies, and lies, and lies.
And his lies go far beyond the misstatements of other presidents. His lies strike at the very foundations of our democracy and the essential laws of our republic.

You claim that Trump intentionally lies, and lies, and lies.  Prove it.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 12, 2020, 11:35:40 AM
I came across this. Is this representative of the Black Lives Matter movement?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Representative of the whole of their membership or following?  Probably not, but it is part of their official statement.  IMO it only furthers the racial divide.

I've been largely silent on the matter for two weeks, not because I didn't care, but because it was a chance to listen, observe, and pray.

This article (the source aside) I believe pretty well sums up not just the race issue but nearly every issue dividing Americans today:

https://patriotpost.us/alexander/71292-talking-with-a-democrat-about-systemic-racism-2020-06-10?fbclid=IwAR3OhzhX3ASp4n6AapML_yvhedafVgVni0bbFEBQbQ3xD0O9cuIZcGw6Lso
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on June 12, 2020, 11:36:37 AM
His lies strike at the very foundations of our democracy and the essential laws of our republic.

Attaboy, Charles! Show us how overstatements are done!   ::)
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Charles Austin on June 12, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
No, but here is how truth is told about the president’s lies. I am not alone in What you call “overstatement.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/opinion/trump-lies.html
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 12, 2020, 12:46:07 PM
Of course, silly overstatement in the face of a controversy raging now is so rare among politicians.
No, it stinks no matter who does it.
But your guy not only over states, but intentionally lies, and lies, and lies.
And his lies go far beyond the misstatements of other presidents. His lies strike at the very foundations of our democracy and the essential laws of our republic.

You claim that Trump intentionally lies, and lies, and lies.  Prove it.
Our ‘horse poop’ specialist says so ... his never Trump publication says so ... and neither ever prevaricates or stretches the truth in the very least. 🤥🤥🤥🤥
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: wmattsfield on June 12, 2020, 01:02:12 PM
I came across this. Is this representative of the Black Lives Matter movement?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Representative of the whole of their membership or following?  Probably not, but it is part of their official statement.  IMO it only furthers the racial divide.

I've been largely silent on the matter for two weeks, not because I didn't care, but because it was a chance to listen, observe, and pray.

This article (the source aside) I believe pretty well sums up not just the race issue but nearly every issue dividing Americans today:

https://patriotpost.us/alexander/71292-talking-with-a-democrat-about-systemic-racism-2020-06-10?fbclid=IwAR3OhzhX3ASp4n6AapML_yvhedafVgVni0bbFEBQbQ3xD0O9cuIZcGw6Lso

Thank you for your response - and for your article.
And while I don't find the article itself compelling, the stats he cites/links to are very interesting. I appreciate it very much.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 12, 2020, 10:01:47 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/20200611111027/https://pastebin.com/WBzAFDgA

Common sense letter from a professor who can't attach his name to is and keep his job. It has been authenticated by professors at other universities, including Thomas Sowell, who received copies. 
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 12, 2020, 10:55:51 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/20200611111027/https://pastebin.com/WBzAFDgA

Common sense letter from a professor who can't attach his name to is and keep his job. It has been authenticated by professors at other universities, including Thomas Sowell, who received copies.

Note that this appears on the Internet Archive, for it has been removed from where it was originally posted. 

I'd also observe that from the University of California on down, the education system in the State has been aggressively "affirmative action" for 2 generations. 

Paz y bien, Estéban+
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: James J Eivan on June 13, 2020, 01:24:11 AM
"Easter reality is looking at my fellow Jesus-truster, whoever or however she or he may be, and saying of him or her, “my brother, my sister,” the words spoken not putatively, as if this language is merely metaphoric or, worse, a cheap exercise in Christian politeness, but rather in the joyful conviction that I’m describing what is. Out of such conviction—such faith, as we’re in the habit of saying—comes the behavior that brings God’s new creation into view so that others can glimpse it too and be astonished or dismayed as the case may be. Recall that Christ, this rock on whom we stand, is the stone that others stumble over. He annoys them no end. He upends their same-old agenda of getting fat and strong on the backs of the riffraff. In Christ there is no riffraff, but only daughters and sons of God Most High, precious beyond measure.

And yes, that God forgives sins is the sine-qua-non precondition of all this. But wondrous though it be—see Matt. 18:23-27—it remains a precondition, the entry point and nothing more (if one dare put it that way) to the subsequent marvel of the Easter age unfolding before our eyes. New creation is more than a future hope. It is also a present gift, accessible to eyes that do see and ears that do hear. So says Jesus (Matt. 13:16-17). So says Paul. Peter says it too (1 Pe. 2:9-10).

Whether Luther saw anything of new creation in those baptized peasants he railed at in 1525 is something I wonder about. But I muse in ignorance. I need to read.

I’m far less diffident when it comes to those who wear the Lutheran name in America today. I think we’re blind. Yes, we all tout the free gifts of God in Jesus Christ—grace, forgiveness, future resurrection—or at least we’re expected to. Marvelous. But there we stop as our ancestors did. And no one beefs when we fail to effuse with apostles and evangelists about the astonishment of Easter reality already shimmering in the bleakness of the same-old, same-old. No one says “Look!” to the kids in confirmation class. Instead we tell them they’ll go to heaven. Or else we bark at them to pull up their do-gooder socks and help bring in the kingdom. As if the kingdom itself is not a gift, free and spectacular, a work of God already unfolding. Either way we sell the Gospel short. We disappoint Christ. We hinder the Spirit’s Easter project.

Lutheran preachers need to repent. I mean preachers across the board, from left to right and back again.

Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do.

Were we doing our job today the photo of a forlorn Central American mother huddled with her child in a detention camp would set every Lutheran’s teeth to grinding—not because she’s a destitute immigrant and America is better than that, but because no one gets to treat our baptized sister that way.

As it is we’re too busy remembering how Norwegian we are, or German, or Slovak. Or white, God help us. Yes, the vast majority of U.S. Lutherans are of European ancestry. But to put stock of any kind in this—to operate on the functional assumption that “brother” means nothing more than my mother’s other son—is to wallow in categories that Christ died to spring us free of. It’s a denial of Easter. This is the dog returning to its vomit and the sow to its mud (2 Pe. 2:2). But will I say that this Sunday? Will you?

How long will Christ put up with us?

Jerome Burce

Fairview Park, Ohio"

Do we know for a fact that the officer in question was Lutheran?  Or is that just an assumption from someone in Ohio because the officer is from Minnesota?
As I read it, Pastor Bohler, Mr. Burce is saying what a Lutheran should have seen and done in the situation. That's all. But it is thought-provoking, which may be why Chaplain Precup posted it.
Peace,
Michael

"Had we been doing our job all along a Lutheran policeman—this is Minneapolis, remember—might well have seen his Easter brother in George Floyd’s face and done for him as real brothers do."  So who is this Lutheran policeman?  And how would he have been able to do something if he was not one of the four who responded to the call?
Better than a day has passed ... apparently no evidence exists that a Lutheran police officer was among the four ... no guilt to be inflicted outside those charged ... all failings forgiven on Calvary by Christ.
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on June 16, 2020, 07:17:44 PM
Continuing the slog as law enforcement continues to pursue the looters and arsonists who used the George Floyd demonstrations as a cover for their criminal activity.

We've already seen the Saint Paul man who fed the fire at the 3rd Police Precinct and stole equipment from it; now we have a Molotov cocktail thrower from that same fire, a man from Brainerd MN arrested in Colorado:

https://www.fox9.com/news/brainerd-minnesota-man-charged-for-role-in-3rd-precinct-fire-after-arrest-in-breckenridge-colorado (https://www.fox9.com/news/brainerd-minnesota-man-charged-for-role-in-3rd-precinct-fire-after-arrest-in-breckenridge-colorado) There are pictures there for you to identify more of the actors, all of whom (to my colorblind eye) are "white."

I hope we get 'em all.

(Nonetheless) peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on August 26, 2020, 09:51:30 AM
Continuing the slog as law enforcement continues to pursue the looters and arsonists who used the George Floyd demonstrations as a cover for their criminal activity.

We've already seen the Saint Paul man who fed the fire at the 3rd Police Precinct and stole equipment from it; now we have a Molotov cocktail thrower from that same fire, a man from Brainerd MN arrested in Colorado:

https://www.fox9.com/news/brainerd-minnesota-man-charged-for-role-in-3rd-precinct-fire-after-arrest-in-breckenridge-colorado (https://www.fox9.com/news/brainerd-minnesota-man-charged-for-role-in-3rd-precinct-fire-after-arrest-in-breckenridge-colorado) There are pictures there for you to identify more of the actors, all of whom (to my colorblind eye) are "white."

I hope we get 'em all.
Law enforcement, ATF, and FBI continue to build cases against Minneapolis arsonists and rioters:
https://www.startribune.com/4-minnesota-men-indicted-on-arson-charges-in-third-precinct-fire/572221482/ (https://www.startribune.com/4-minnesota-men-indicted-on-arson-charges-in-third-precinct-fire/572221482/)
https://www.startribune.com/two-twin-cities-suburban-men-face-federal-arson-charges-in-fire-during-george-floyd-riots/572186872/ (https://www.startribune.com/two-twin-cities-suburban-men-face-federal-arson-charges-in-fire-during-george-floyd-riots/572186872/)
     So far, the men involved have not been from out of state, but several have been from well out of town. None that I have seen have been from the neighborhood where the burnings took place, as in the commonly heard slur, "Why are they burning down their own neighborhood?" (And we know who "they" are.)
      So far, I haven't heard whether the arsonists were politically motivated, much less whether they are "right wing" or "left wing."
      I continue to hope that we get 'em all.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on April 29, 2021, 08:59:41 PM
Eleven months later, the pursuit of men guilty of destruction in the week after George Floyd's murder goes on. Yesterday one of the actors, a young man from Brainerd, MN, was sentenced to four years and $20,000,000 fine. The article from today's Minneapolis Star Tribune also tells of progress in the cases against other men, including a Boogaloo Boi from Texas.
https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/ (https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/)

These men were not from the neighborhood. They were not destroying the livelihoods of their own neighbors. They were eager to raise havoc, for reasons that had nothing to do with George Floyd (or Black Lives Matter).

The hooligans who trashed the nation's Capitol can, I hope and expect, count on being pursued by the law with similar diligence and tirelessness.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on April 30, 2021, 09:53:28 AM
Eleven months later, the pursuit of men guilty of destruction in the week after George Floyd's murder goes on. Yesterday one of the actors, a young man from Brainerd, MN, was sentenced to four years and $20,000,000 fine. The article from today's Minneapolis Star Tribune also tells of progress in the cases against other men, including a Boogaloo Boi from Texas.
https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/ (https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/)

These men were not from the neighborhood. They were not destroying the livelihoods of their own neighbors. They were eager to raise havoc, for reasons that had nothing to do with George Floyd (or Black Lives Matter).

The hooligans who trashed the nation's Capitol can, I hope and expect, count on being pursued by the law with similar diligence and tirelessness.

Peace,
Michael

Since you and a number of our online interlocutors are Minnesotans, I was made aware of the boogaloo bois and that movement by John Sandford's Lucas Davenport novels, several of which deal with police interactions with them, and all of which are located in Minnesota.  Art imitating life imitating art.  I know that Lucas Davenport and the inimitable Virgil Flowers would run the hooligans down.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Michael Slusser on April 30, 2021, 11:59:17 AM
Eleven months later, the pursuit of men guilty of destruction in the week after George Floyd's murder goes on. Yesterday one of the actors, a young man from Brainerd, MN, was sentenced to four years and $20,000,000 fine. The article from today's Minneapolis Star Tribune also tells of progress in the cases against other men, including a Boogaloo Boi from Texas.
https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/ (https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/)

These men were not from the neighborhood. They were not destroying the livelihoods of their own neighbors. They were eager to raise havoc, for reasons that had nothing to do with George Floyd (or Black Lives Matter).

The hooligans who trashed the nation's Capitol can, I hope and expect, count on being pursued by the law with similar diligence and tirelessness.

Since you and a number of our online interlocutors are Minnesotans, I was made aware of the boogaloo bois and that movement by John Sandford's Lucas Davenport novels, several of which deal with police interactions with them, and all of which are located in Minnesota.  Art imitating life imitating art.  I know that Lucas Davenport and the inimitable Virgil Flowers would run the hooligans down.

Dave Benke
The Boogaloo Boi in this case was from Texas, and the hounds were federal agents, not staties from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, like Lucas and Virgil.

*Lucas had become some kind of Fed in the last book I read with him in it.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
Post by: Dave Benke on April 30, 2021, 12:34:26 PM
Eleven months later, the pursuit of men guilty of destruction in the week after George Floyd's murder goes on. Yesterday one of the actors, a young man from Brainerd, MN, was sentenced to four years and $20,000,000 fine. The article from today's Minneapolis Star Tribune also tells of progress in the cases against other men, including a Boogaloo Boi from Texas.
https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/ (https://www.startribune.com/brainerd-man-sentenced-to-four-years-in-federal-prison-for-role-in-burning-minneapolis-police-third/600051280/)

These men were not from the neighborhood. They were not destroying the livelihoods of their own neighbors. They were eager to raise havoc, for reasons that had nothing to do with George Floyd (or Black Lives Matter).

The hooligans who trashed the nation's Capitol can, I hope and expect, count on being pursued by the law with similar diligence and tirelessness.

Since you and a number of our online interlocutors are Minnesotans, I was made aware of the boogaloo bois and that movement by John Sandford's Lucas Davenport novels, several of which deal with police interactions with them, and all of which are located in Minnesota.  Art imitating life imitating art.  I know that Lucas Davenport and the inimitable Virgil Flowers would run the hooligans down.

Dave Benke
The Boogaloo Boi in this case was from Texas, and the hounds were federal agents, not staties from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, like Lucas and Virgil.

*Lucas had become some kind of Fed in the last book I read with him in it.

Peace,
Michael

Yes - and Virgil grew up a Lutheran in Mankato, where his dad was a pastor.

Dave Benke