ALPB Forum Online

ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: J. Eriksson on February 28, 2020, 09:18:34 PM

Title: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Eriksson on February 28, 2020, 09:18:34 PM
Dear alpb:

Writing from far northern Hokkaido, Japan

We have between 60 and 70 cases in a population of  5,000,000.   a State of Emergency has been declared.  the nearest cluster of cases 1.5 hours away  by car has been traced to a trade show that maybe a thousand people attended.  this weekend will see how many people took the virus home with them.  Schools have been closed.  School graduations have had their guest lists pruned.  high school entrance exams are in limbo.

Our rector /kindergarten Principal is dealing with this in his last month before retirement at age 70.

Worship Anglican/Episcopal is cancelled for tomorrow,  Catholic Masses have been cancelled until March 14th.   I won't be in church tomorrow.  if any of you are streaming your worship you can send me the links.

I would if I was on the other side of the Pacific begin planning for something similar.

Best wishes to all and a blessed Lent

James

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on February 28, 2020, 09:49:38 PM
if any of you are streaming your worship you can send me the links.

I would if I was on the other side of the Pacific begin planning for something similar.

Best wishes to all and a blessed Lent

James

Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church York PA

Home page:

http://agocy.org/ (http://agocy.org/)

Click red "Watch Live" button or use the link below.

Livestream direct link:

https://video.ibm.com/channel/v8GYFuyKMqZ (https://video.ibm.com/channel/v8GYFuyKMqZ)

We should be streaming the Second Saturday of Souls on Saturday February 29 0830 EST as well as the Sunday Orthros & Divine Liturgy.   I know there is a 12 hour time difference.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on February 28, 2020, 09:53:30 PM
Oh boy...a college friend of mine is an art teacher near Hokkaido.

If you search HolyTrinityLCMS on facebook you should be able to find our page. We stream our services using Facebook Live. We're in Grandview/KC MO.

From famine and pestilence, Good Lord, deliver us. Prayers for you and all in that region.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on February 28, 2020, 10:07:58 PM
From famine and pestilence, Good Lord, deliver us.
Jeremy

The Artoklesia intercession sometimes included with Great Vespers:

Quote
Have mercy on us, O God, according to Your great mercy, we pray You, hear us and have mercy.

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

Let us pray for pious and Orthodox Christians.

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

Again we pray for (episcopal rank) (name).

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

Again we pray for mercy, life, peace, health, salvation, visitation, forgiveness and remission of the sins of all pious and Orthodox Christians living and visiting in this city, the parishioners, the members of the Parish Council and every Ministry of this Parish, and the donors and benefactors of this holy church, and the servants of God [names] who celebrate this holy feast.

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

Again we pray for the protection of this holy church, this city and every city and land, from wrath, famine, pestilence, earthquake, flood, fire, sword, foreign invasions, civil strife, and accidental death. That our good and loving God may be merciful, gracious and favorable to us by turning and keeping from us all wrath and sickness, and deliver us from His just rebuke, and have mercy on us.

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

Again we pray that the Lord our God may hear the prayer of us sinners, and have mercy on us.

(Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.)

PRIEST

Hear us, O God our Savior, the hope of all those who live everywhere on earth and those far out at sea or in the air. Be gracious toward our sins, Master, and have mercy on us.

For you are a merciful and loving God, and to you we give glory, to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

(Amen.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on February 28, 2020, 11:02:08 PM
We don't stream at the moment, but sometime tomorrow afternoon you should at least be able to hear a fine sermon at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYA_DI9AuRA1A7sCUebzHIg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYA_DI9AuRA1A7sCUebzHIg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on February 29, 2020, 12:40:14 AM
I won't be in church tomorrow.  if any of you are streaming your worship you can send me the links.

I would if I was on the other side of the Pacific begin planning for something similar.

Best wishes to all and a blessed Lent

James
Trinity Lutheran, Sheboygan (https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1qua9Ih1aaRx0h7SQTBm0A), WI archives their Divine Services on YouTube ... and streams them live at 8a & 10:45a central standard time (March 1 ) ... central daylight time (beginning March 8 ).  A Live Link appears on their YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1qua9Ih1aaRx0h7SQTBm0A) site when the live broadcast is available.   The March 1 services will include the Concordia Theological Seminary Kantorei. Their 8a service is normally archived before noon on Sunday.
 
They also have a Monday 6:30p repeat of the Sunday service ... I’m unsure if they live stream the Monday service.


Their Lenten services are at 6:30p ...  streamed ... sometimes midweek services are not archived.


Calvary Lutheran, Dallas (https://calvarydallas.org/church/resources/live-stream/) live-streams their 8a ct service .... the archive is normally available my noon or so.  Their Lenten services are at 7p ct and archived as well.


I pray the Lord preserves your health according to His good and gracious will.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on February 29, 2020, 04:40:07 AM
Nothing to worry about, folks. No crisis. Fox News and the President tell me it’s all a hoax, a “liberal conspiracy”,  that it’s no big deal. Fox News quotes the President saying we are “totally prepared.”

NBC News, yesterday:
   Vice President Mike Pence went on Rush Limbaugh's radio show on Friday to assure Americans that threat posed by the coronavirus in the United States is "low" but "we're ready for whatever may come."
   Limbaugh ...  has previously compared the coronavirus to "the common cold" and complained that concerns about an outbreak in the U.S. were being "weaponized" by Democrats and the media.

Politico, yesterday
NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — President Donald Trump on Friday night tried to cast the global outbreak of the coronavirus as a liberal conspiracy intended to undermine his first term, lumping it alongside impeachment and the Mueller investigation.
   He blamed the press for acting hysterically about the virus, which has now spread to China, Japan, South Korea, Iran, Italy and the U.S, and he downplayed its dangers, saying against expert opinion it was on par with the flu.

NBC News, today
NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — President Donald Trump accused Democrats of “politicizing” the deadly coronavirus during a campaign rally here on Friday, claiming that the outbreak is “their new hoax” as he continued to downplay the risk in the U.S. ... “Democrats will always say horrible things," Trump said. "Democrats want us to fail so badly.”

Various news sources:
   The president said that the U.S. is “rapidly developing a vaccine” and “will essentially have a flu shot for this in a fairly quick manner.”
   No. The director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said a vaccine at best won’t be ready for “a year to a year-and-a-half” and won’t be available for the current epidemic.

   Trump’s acting secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Chad Wolf, falsely claimed this week that the influenza fatality rate was “right around 2% as well.” It’s not.
   In making a comparison to a past outbreak, the president noted that Ebola is far more deadly than the novel coronavirus. But he neglected to mention that Ebola can only be transmitted via bodily fluids and is harder to catch.

President Trump, tweeting in the third person:
   "So, the Coronavirus, which started in China and spread to various countries throughout the world, but very slowly in the U.S. because President Trump closed our border, and ended flights, VERY EARLY, is now being blamed, by the Do Nothing Democrats, to be the fault of 'Trump.’”

(My question: borders closed? Ended flights? Did I miss that these past three days?)
As Steven says, Lord, have mercy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on February 29, 2020, 04:49:54 AM
P.S.
The Trump administration has slashed the budget of the Center for Disease Control, undercutting its ability to quickly respond to an epidemic.
But... nothing to worry about. Right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David M. Frye, OblSB on February 29, 2020, 08:03:07 AM
There is a Web site (https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html), which may require registration, but which offers real-time summaries of the COVID-19 pandemic. The researchers presented their dashboard here: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30120-1/fulltext.

I find it helpful to look at the data without "the spin."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on February 29, 2020, 08:35:23 AM
The Center for Disease Control has a very informative website on COVID-19 that should probably be on everyone's list of first check sites:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html)

The potential public health threat posed by COVID-19 is high, both globally and to the United States.

But individual risk is dependent on exposure.

For the general American public, who are unlikely to be exposed to this virus at this time, the immediate health risk from COVID-19 is considered low.

Under current circumstances, certain people will have an increased risk of infection, for example healthcare workers caring for patients with COVID-19 and other close contacts of persons with COVID-19. CDC has developed guidance to help in the risk assessment and management of people with potential exposures to COVID-19.

However, it’s important to note that current global circumstances suggest it is likely that this virus will cause a pandemic. In that case, the risk assessment would be different.

So at this time the "potential threat" in this country is "high," but the "immediate threat" for the "general public" is "low."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on February 29, 2020, 08:37:25 AM
I can't help but remember the "swine flu epidemic" of 1976. 

That said, because China is, well, China, we don't really have a good handle on what the death rate from this virus is.  I suspect that many people have been infected who didn't even know what it was, thinking maybe that it was just a bad case of influenza.  No, we shouldn't panic but we should be alert.  I'm still waiting for those who are accusing the government of failing to do what they should have done to tell exactly how they would have handled the situation differently, in detail not in a "well I would have appointed a 'czar' earlier" thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on February 29, 2020, 08:43:37 AM
P.S.
The Trump administration has slashed the budget of the Center for Disease Control, undercutting its ability to quickly respond to an epidemic.
But... nothing to worry about. Right?


The CDC budget has not been cut, let alone slashed. Congress has raised CDC spending every year. The one “cut” that some have complained about was not really a cut, but the expiration by its terms of an emergency five-year Ebola program. Congress did not extend that program.


 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: loschwitz on February 29, 2020, 09:14:55 AM
Central Lutheran in Minneapolis streams its 8:30 and 10:30 (CST) services.

St. Olaf  also streams at 10:30.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on February 29, 2020, 09:23:43 AM
We stream here each Sunday:  https://www.facebook.com/Trinity-Lutheran-Church-104808916279262/

P.S.
The Trump administration has slashed the budget of the Center for Disease Control, undercutting its ability to quickly respond to an epidemic.
But... nothing to worry about. Right?

The CDC budget has not been cut, let alone slashed. Congress has raised CDC spending every year. The one “cut” that some have complained about was not really a cut, but the expiration by its terms of an emergency five-year Ebola program. Congress did not extend that program.

Our greater concern at present still ought to be with the standard old flu bugs:

1:  for the past several years, the annual flu vaccine has "missed" the dominant strains
2:  has a fatality rate of 6.5% (18,000 so far in the US alone this winter) compared to Corona's 1.5%-2%

but as you also infer, why let facts ruin a perfectly good hysteria resulting from severe TDS?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on February 29, 2020, 09:37:12 AM
The CDC budget is now up to Congress and it is likely to be significantly increased to deal with this problem.
But the previous cuts and ends to certain programs, did affect the agencies ability to respond quickly to the current situation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on February 29, 2020, 10:16:30 AM
This thread began with an ALPB poster in far northern Hokkaido, Japan.  It made me wonder about someone from my area who went to Niigata City, Japan some years ago to work.  Today he confirmed that they, too, now have a reported case or two.  He notes that there is no school, but the teachers still report for work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on February 29, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
I have been following the information as has everyone.

I think the real problem with the disease will not be the primary effect (corpses stacked like cordwood like the Spanish Flu pandemic.) Where there will be real and life threatening issues will be in the  disruption of the global logistics network. Think of the feedstocks for various pharmaceuticals manufactured in China. And look at other necessities that likewise depend on the PRC for at least part of their manufacture. And then, as the disease spreads, the same issue playing out across the globe.

But it’s nice to know that someone has figured out that “it’s all Trump’s fault!””
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on February 29, 2020, 12:59:14 PM
I have been following the information as has everyone.

I think the real problem with the disease will not be the primary effect (corpses stacked like cordwood like the Spanish Flu pandemic.) Where there will be real and life threatening issues will be in the  disruption of the global logistics network. Think of the feedstocks for various pharmaceuticals manufactured in China. And look at other necessities that likewise depend on the PRC for at least part of their manufacture. And then, as the disease spreads, the same issue playing out across the globe.

But it’s nice to know that someone has figured out that “it’s all Trump’s fault!””

No one has said that. 

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on February 29, 2020, 01:00:59 PM
The CDC budget is now up to Congress and it is likely to be significantly increased to deal with this problem.
But the previous cuts and ends to certain programs, did affect the agencies ability to respond quickly to the current situation.


So you're sticking to your previous misstatements of fact?  Ah, journalism in 2020.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on February 29, 2020, 01:05:54 PM
The Coronavirus quickly became a political football for the Democratic presidential candidates.  Nothing like letting a global crisis contribute to one's campaign rhetoric.  And it's nice to know that Sander's "Medicare for All" would have solved this whole problem already, making sure the vaccine was produced and universally distributed. Wow. 


COLUMBIA, S.C. —

Democratic presidential candidates are questioning President Trump’s response to the global coronavirus outbreak and urging him, among other things, to do his “damn job.”

Candidates, many campaigning in South Carolina on the eve of the state’s primary election on Saturday, sharpened their criticism of the president as reports of new cases sparked fear in U.S. communities.

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders accused the president of incompetence, noting that instead of working to manage the nation’s response to the outbreak, Trump traveled to South Carolina for a campaign rally on the eve of the Democratic primary. The state Republican Party had canceled its 2020 primary....

Earlier this week, Sanders said it was outrageous that if a vaccine for the virus is developed, the administration wouldn’t guarantee it would be available to all Americans. He argued that under his Medicare for All plan, nobody would be denied access to a vaccine.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-02-28/democratic-candidates-criticize-trump-coronavirus-response (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-02-28/democratic-candidates-criticize-trump-coronavirus-response)

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on February 29, 2020, 01:45:47 PM
The CDC budget is now up to Congress and it is likely to be significantly increased to deal with this problem.
But the previous cuts and ends to certain programs, did affect the agencies ability to respond quickly to the current situation.

Once again Charles I'm asking how exactly did that work out.  Tell me what could have been done that was not done and how that might have changed anything at all in the US
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: loschwitz on February 29, 2020, 01:54:55 PM
I am undecided if I should go forward tomorrow to receive Communion.   Too risky with a common cup.  Intinction is even worse.

Will probably skip shaking hands during the Peace.   Maybe a bow or a bump, but that's it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on February 29, 2020, 02:49:48 PM
I have been following the information as has everyone.

I think the real problem with the disease will not be the primary effect (corpses stacked like cordwood like the Spanish Flu pandemic.) Where there will be real and life threatening issues will be in the  disruption of the global logistics network. Think of the feedstocks for various pharmaceuticals manufactured in China. And look at other necessities that likewise depend on the PRC for at least part of their manufacture. And then, as the disease spreads, the same issue playing out across the globe.

But it’s nice to know that someone has figured out that “it’s all Trump’s fault!””

No one has said that. 

Peace, JOHN

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on February 29, 2020, 04:07:05 PM
I am undecided if I should go forward tomorrow to receive Communion.   Too risky with a common cup.  Intinction is even worse.

Will probably skip shaking hands during the Peace.   Maybe a bow or a bump, but that's it.

One of our priests this morning sent out an email to the rest of us. He had taken some material from the diocese about health practices and worship and made up a flyer or announcement, and wondered if we should put it in the bulletin. My suggestion was: "My opinion, let's hold off at least a week and talk about it at our clergy meeting this week." Then this morning we went to a funeral at the local ELCA congregation where the interim pastor, immediately prior to the passing of the peace, gave elaborate instructions about different ways to share the peace (which, from my vantage point, were largely ignored by the congregation). He did the same thing prior to the distribution of communion. Incredibly disruptive, liturgically speaking, and done in a way that made people chuckle, which made this far from the most reverent sacramental occasion I've witnessed.

On the way home, as I groused about all this, my wife asked me what I would do. My off the cuff response was that I'd write something for the bulletin. I'd not include all the diocesan stuff about worship leaders washing their hands thoroughly before the service and using hand sanitizer before and after the peace (which we actually already do). I'd frame it, not as a response to the current virus but as good reminders during cold and flu season generally. I'd offer some alternatives to shaking hands, and remind people that if another worshiper does not wish to shake your hand, our care for one another means we don't take offense but respond with grace and understanding. I'd say something about the problem of intinction vs. common cup (in our congregation is probably 75% intinct), and remind people that the full benefit of the sacrament is contained in either element. (An aside: I think trying to convince them to give up intinction is asking for trouble; people go the altar on autopilot and we'd get a lot of automatically intincting, then remembering and pulling back, and then looking hopelessly confused.) And I'd stress that how we choose to respond to all of this is completely a matter of personal preference and conscience, and no one should feel compelled to make one choice or another. That's what I'd do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on February 29, 2020, 04:25:26 PM
I guess we can look forward to the return of oversized pump jars of hand sanitizer on altars and Communion rails. 

(sarcasm off)

For a variety of reasons--COVID 19 probably the least among them--there should be serious conversation over whether staging the Eucharistic elements (most especially a loaf bread, sometimes not even covered with a napkin!) on a table just inside the Nave or even in the Narthex is really such a good idea.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: loschwitz on February 29, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
Pastor Johnson--

What alternatives to shaking hands would you suggest?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on February 29, 2020, 05:26:39 PM
https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/china/article/3052721/wuhan-killer/index.html

Some interesting background from Wuhan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on February 29, 2020, 09:13:21 PM
Pastor Johnson--

What alternatives to shaking hands would you suggest?

Touching the shoulder. Waving the hand. Simply exchanging words with a smile. Bowing the head in greeting.

I've seen people who perhaps had a cold simply hold their hands behind their back or across their chest to indicate they didn't want to shake hands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 01, 2020, 08:56:20 AM
Pastor Johnson--

What alternatives to shaking hands would you suggest?

Touching the shoulder. Waving the hand. Simply exchanging words with a smile. Bowing the head in greeting.

I've seen people who perhaps had a cold simply hold their hands behind their back or across their chest to indicate they didn't want to shake hands.

Fist bump without quite touching.  That's happening in this part of the world.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 01, 2020, 09:38:46 AM
The concern and care given to the covid 19 outbreak is good but we also need to keep it in perspective. So far there have been around 3000 deaths from the disease,  last year we had more than 10 times that number of deaths from the flu in the US. This is not the return of the Black Plague. Concern, yes, preparation and care, certainly, panic, no.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 01, 2020, 12:43:23 PM
Just returned from the Divine Service ... other than a prayer for the virus situation, no changes in the service ... sharing of the peace proceeded as usual ... common cup used as usual ... attendance unaffected.

A week ago in Bible Class I shook hands in Bible Class with a gentleman who along with his wife and children just completed a 14 day voluntary quarrentine after returning to the US from Shanghai.


Apparently the admonition of National Public Radio to be vigilant but not panic was headed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Robert Johnson on March 01, 2020, 12:44:02 PM
I have been following the information as has everyone.

I think the real problem with the disease will not be the primary effect (corpses stacked like cordwood like the Spanish Flu pandemic.) Where there will be real and life threatening issues will be in the  disruption of the global logistics network. Think of the feedstocks for various pharmaceuticals manufactured in China. And look at other necessities that likewise depend on the PRC for at least part of their manufacture. And then, as the disease spreads, the same issue playing out across the globe.

But it’s nice to know that someone has figured out that “it’s all Trump’s fault!””

No one has said that. 

Peace, JOHN

Yes, they have.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Nurseken7 on March 01, 2020, 01:01:56 PM
Trump is a whiner and a crybaby. Any criticism of is so so unfair. Sniff sniff
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Nurseken7 on March 01, 2020, 01:12:16 PM
The Florida state department of health has announced that 3 state labs in Miami Tampa and Jacksonville can now test for corona virus shortening the time to get test results
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 01, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
Trump is a whiner and a crybaby. Any criticism of is so so unfair. Sniff sniff
Ironic post of the decade.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 01, 2020, 01:54:49 PM
Yes, the president takes criticism very well. And he believes that any reaction to the corona virus is actually an assault on him personally.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 01, 2020, 02:24:50 PM
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you. Yes, Trump is thin skinned and doesn't take criticism well. That doesn't change the fact that some prominent Democrats have tried to spin this epidemic to their political favor and accuse Trump of somehow mishandling it. Rather than rallying to manage the crisis, some have,seemed more interested in pointing fingers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 01, 2020, 02:31:06 PM
And, to be frank, the Administration, especially POTUS, is going to be acting like Han, Luke, and Chewie done in the Cell Block, with "nothing to report, no problem, just a minor reactor leak..."

The Corona virus stands a good chance of damaging the economy enough so that people will not vote their wallets. So they are going to down play it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 01, 2020, 03:33:09 PM
Pastor Fienen:
That doesn't change the fact that some prominent Democrats have tried to spin this epidemic to their political favor and accuse Trump of somehow mishandling it.
Me:
Not “somehow” mishandling it, but at least until now, actually mishandling it.
That’s not spin, that’s just telling the truth.
And some of us think he hasn’t been able to handle anything else very well, so why should we think he will handle this well?
Too many unsubstantiated assertions, too many lies, too long a history of not believing the science.
The facility where I live put out a nice two page information sheet from the CDC, that explains more in those two pages than anything said by any government official in the last five days.
P.S.
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 01, 2020, 03:44:41 PM
Pastor Fienen:
That doesn't change the fact that some prominent Democrats have tried to spin this epidemic to their political favor and accuse Trump of somehow mishandling it.
Me:
Not “somehow” mishandling it, but at least until now, actually mishandling it.
That’s not spin, that’s just telling the truth.
And some of us think he hasn’t been able to handle anything else very well, so why should we think he will handle this well?
Too many unsubstantiated assertions, too many lies, too long a history of not believing the science.
The facility where I live put out a nice two page information sheet from the CDC, that explains more in those two pages than anything said by any government official in the last five days.
P.S.
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”
You can’t tell the difference between reporting facts and reporting “spin.” Any interpretation of the facts is spin. When you say the assessment that he is mishandling the outbreak is fact, not spin, you demonstrate why trust in journalism is at an all time low. You’re too clueless to even know how clueless you are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 01, 2020, 04:17:07 PM
From the Snopes site: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/

These are facts.

Amid warnings from public health officials that a 2020 outbreak of a new coronavirus could soon become a pandemic involving the U.S., alarmed readers asked Snopes to verify a rumor that U.S. President Donald Trump had “fired the entire pandemic response team two years ago and then didn’t replace them.”

The claim came from a series of tweets posted by Judd Legum, who runs Popular Information, a newsletter he describes as being about “politics and power.” Legum’s commentary was representative of sharp criticism from Democratic legislators (and some Republicans) that the Trump administration had ill-prepared the country for a pandemic even as one was looming on the horizon.

Legum outlined a series of cost-cutting decisions made by the Trump administration in preceding years that had gutted the nation’s infectious disease defense infrastructure. The “pandemic response team” firing claim referred to newsaccounts from Spring 2018 reporting that White House officials tasked with directing a national response to a pandemic had been ousted.

Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer abruptly departed from his post leading the global health security team on the National Security Council in May 2018 amid a reorganization of the council by then-National Security Advisor John Bolton, and Ziemer’s team was disbanded. Tom Bossert, whom the Washington Post reported “had called for a comprehensive biodefense strategy against pandemics and biological attacks,” had been fired one month prior.

It’s thus true that the Trump administration axed the executive branch team responsible for coordinating a response to a pandemic and did not replace it, eliminating Ziemer’s position and reassigning others, although Bolton was the executive at the top of the National Security Council chain of command at the time.

Legum stated in a follow-up tweet that “Trump also cut funding for the CDC, forcing the CDC to cancel its efforts to help countries prevent infectious-disease threats from becoming epidemics in 39 of 49 countries in 2018. Among the countries abandoned? China.” That was partly true, according to 2018 news reports stating that funding for the CDC’s global disease outbreak prevention efforts had been reduced by 80%, including funding for the agency’s efforts in China. But that was the result of the anticipated depletion of previously allotted funding, not a direct cut by the Trump administration.

On Feb. 24, 2020, the Trump administration requested $2.5 billion to address the coronavirus outbreak, an outlay critics asserted might not have been necessary if the previous program cuts had not taken place. Fortune reported of the issue that:

The cuts could be especially problematic as COVID-19 continues to spread. Health officials are now warning the U.S. is unlikely to be spared, even though cases are minimal here so far.

“It’s not so much of a question of if this will happen in this country any more but a question of when this will happen and how many people in this country will have severe illness,” Dr. Nancy Messonnier, the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said during a press call [on Feb. 25].

The coronavirus was first detected in Wuhan, China, in the winter of 2019, and cases spread around the globe. The U.S. had 57 confirmed cases as of this writing, while globally, roughly 80,000 patients had been sickened with the virus and 3,000 had died. As of yet, no vaccine or pharmaceutical treatment for the new coronavirus. Data from China suggests the coronavirus has a higher fatality rate than the seasonal flu, although outcomes depend on factors such as the age and underlying health of the patient.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 01, 2020, 04:19:39 PM
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”


A report on CBS this morning indicated that the virus is so small that a mask does not protect the wearer from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 01, 2020, 04:27:10 PM
Pastor Fienen:
That doesn't change the fact that some prominent Democrats have tried to spin this epidemic to their political favor and accuse Trump of somehow mishandling it.
Me:
Not “somehow” mishandling it, but at least until now, actually mishandling it.
That’s not spin, that’s just telling the truth.
And some of us think he hasn’t been able to handle anything else very well, so why should we think he will handle this well?
Too many unsubstantiated assertions, too many lies, too long a history of not believing the science.
The facility where I live put out a nice two page information sheet from the CDC, that explains more in those two pages than anything said by any government official in the last five days.
P.S.
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”


Once again, you trot out a flat-out falsehood.  According to the Star Tribune article that apparently is your source (http://www.startribune.com/3m-can-t-confirm-pence-comments-about-making-more-masks/568354132/?refresh=true), VP Pence said that the federal government "has contracted now with 3M" to make masks.  VP Pence also said that "35 million more masks per month will be produced, and we're also going to be working with other manufacturers" in addition to 3M.  As the Star Tribune makes clear, Pence did not expressly say that the contract with 3M was for "35 million masks" and he may have meant no such thing.  It wasn't entirely clear.  As the Star Tribune puts it, it's "unclear whether [VP Pence] was suggesting that 3M will be making 35 million more masks a month, or whether 3M and other companies would be doing so."


According to the Star Tribune, 3M spokesperson Jennifer Ehrlich responded to inquiries by saying that "any information about government contracts for respirators would have to come from the Office of the Vice President," but that 3M is "not yet under contract" for "the volume mentioned" by VP Pence (i.e., 35 million masks).


You claim that Ms. Ehrlich's direct response to VP Pence's statement was "no, that's not actually true."  You use quotation marks to attribute this specific comment to Ms. Ehrlich.  In so doing, you are peddling a falsehood.  Are you lying or are you simply not reading the source material carefully?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 01, 2020, 04:34:31 PM
From the Snopes site: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/)

These are facts.

Amid warnings from public health officials that a 2020 outbreak of a new coronavirus could soon become a pandemic involving the U.S., alarmed readers asked Snopes to verify a rumor that U.S. President Donald Trump had “fired the entire pandemic response team two years ago and then didn’t replace them.”

The claim came from a series of tweets posted by Judd Legum, who runs Popular Information, a newsletter he describes as being about “politics and power.” Legum’s commentary was representative of sharp criticism from Democratic legislators (and some Republicans) that the Trump administration had ill-prepared the country for a pandemic even as one was looming on the horizon.

Legum outlined a series of cost-cutting decisions made by the Trump administration in preceding years that had gutted the nation’s infectious disease defense infrastructure. The “pandemic response team” firing claim referred to newsaccounts from Spring 2018 reporting that White House officials tasked with directing a national response to a pandemic had been ousted.

Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer abruptly departed from his post leading the global health security team on the National Security Council in May 2018 amid a reorganization of the council by then-National Security Advisor John Bolton, and Ziemer’s team was disbanded. Tom Bossert, whom the Washington Post reported “had called for a comprehensive biodefense strategy against pandemics and biological attacks,” had been fired one month prior.

It’s thus true that the Trump administration axed the executive branch team responsible for coordinating a response to a pandemic and did not replace it, eliminating Ziemer’s position and reassigning others, although Bolton was the executive at the top of the National Security Council chain of command at the time.

Legum stated in a follow-up tweet that “Trump also cut funding for the CDC, forcing the CDC to cancel its efforts to help countries prevent infectious-disease threats from becoming epidemics in 39 of 49 countries in 2018. Among the countries abandoned? China.” That was partly true, according to 2018 news reports stating that funding for the CDC’s global disease outbreak prevention efforts had been reduced by 80%, including funding for the agency’s efforts in China. But that was the result of the anticipated depletion of previously allotted funding, not a direct cut by the Trump administration.

On Feb. 24, 2020, the Trump administration requested $2.5 billion to address the coronavirus outbreak, an outlay critics asserted might not have been necessary if the previous program cuts had not taken place. Fortune reported of the issue that:

The cuts could be especially problematic as COVID-19 continues to spread. Health officials are now warning the U.S. is unlikely to be spared, even though cases are minimal here so far.

“It’s not so much of a question of if this will happen in this country any more but a question of when this will happen and how many people in this country will have severe illness,” Dr. Nancy Messonnier, the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said during a press call [on Feb. 25].

The coronavirus was first detected in Wuhan, China, in the winter of 2019, and cases spread around the globe. The U.S. had 57 confirmed cases as of this writing, while globally, roughly 80,000 patients had been sickened with the virus and 3,000 had died. As of yet, no vaccine or pharmaceutical treatment for the new coronavirus. Data from China suggests the coronavirus has a higher fatality rate than the seasonal flu, although outcomes depend on factors such as the age and underlying health of the patient.


Snopes is to fact-checking as the SPLC is to hate-group labeling.  Both groups claim to be neutral arbiters, but each in fact is as reliable as, say, Infowars. 


We've already covered here the matter addressed with half-truths and ideological zeal by Snopes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 01, 2020, 05:14:58 PM
Yes, the president takes criticism very well. And he believes that any reaction to the corona virus is actually an assault on him personally.

Yes indeed... about as well as you take criticism directed at you ... or towards the ELCA for that matter. 8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 01, 2020, 06:43:06 PM
Just returned from the Divine Service ... other than a prayer for the virus situation, no changes in the service ... sharing of the peace proceeded as usual ... common cup used as usual ... attendance unaffected.


This morning at our church there was an announcement about our bishop's "guidelines" for precautions (which was apparently emailed to the congregation early this morning). I thought it unfortunate that one of our priests (he was sitting in the pew, not leading the service) mentioned that he had read that the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Roman Catholic) has asked parishes to suspend drinking from the chalice at mass until further notice. Thankfully, our rector immediately said, "That's not happening here."

Of course suspending drinking from the chalice in an RC setting is not a really big deal, since the chalice was only restored after Vatican II. I've noticed in RC parishes I've visited that a minority of communicants take the wine. That probably varies geographically.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 01, 2020, 10:39:30 PM
Mr. (Or Ms. or ...)Eivan and Mr. Gale:
Whatever. What-freaking-ever.
As they say on Star Trek, you have the con.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 02, 2020, 12:36:48 AM

The facility where I live put out a nice two page information sheet from the CDC, that explains more in those two pages than anything said by any government official in the last five days.

Uh, the CDC is made up of government officials.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on March 02, 2020, 07:32:47 AM
Who knew Alanis Morissette would be so helpful in ecclesial practices? "I got one hand in my pocket and the other one is giving a peace sign."

Is Sting a Lutheran? "Don't stand...don't stand so close to me."

The church should conform to culture.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 02, 2020, 11:40:54 AM
Mr. (Or Ms. or ...)Eivan and Mr. Gale:
Whatever. What-freaking-ever.
As they say on Star Trek, you have the con.


Instead of walking away in a huff, why not retract the falsehoods in your previous posts and lodge legitimate criticisms against the administration.  Such grounds do exist, after all.  By proceeding this way, you might actually help your case instead of continuing to undermine it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 02, 2020, 11:51:45 AM
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”


A report on CBS this morning indicated that the virus is so small that a mask does not protect the wearer from it.

Masks are appropriate for people who are already infected, because they keep that person from raining droplets on others from sneezes and so forth.  They do nothing to prevent a wearer from becoming infected.  They are probably well short of 100% effective even when worn by those who are infected, hence the quarantining of such people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: MaddogLutheran on March 02, 2020, 11:58:50 AM
And vice President Pence said yesterday that the government has a multimillion dollar  contract with 3M, based here in Minneapolis, for masks and other virus fighting equipment.
Spokesman for 3M says in today’s paper, “no, that’s not actually true.”


A report on CBS this morning indicated that the virus is so small that a mask does not protect the wearer from it.

Masks are appropriate for people who are already infected, because they keep that person from raining droplets on others from sneezes and so forth.  They do nothing to prevent a wearer from becoming infected.  They are probably well short of 100% effective even when worn by those who are infected, hence the quarantining of such people.

Exactly.  To avoid infection, you don't just need mask protection, you also need eye protection.  Those aerosol droplets can provide a virus an entry point via exposed eyeballs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 02, 2020, 03:56:32 PM
Pastor Johnson--

What alternatives to shaking hands would you suggest?

Touching the shoulder. Waving the hand. Simply exchanging words with a smile. Bowing the head in greeting.

I've seen people who perhaps had a cold simply hold their hands behind their back or across their chest to indicate they didn't want to shake hands.

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 02, 2020, 04:10:09 PM
Pastor Johnson--

What alternatives to shaking hands would you suggest?

Touching the shoulder. Waving the hand. Simply exchanging words with a smile. Bowing the head in greeting.

I've seen people who perhaps had a cold simply hold their hands behind their back or across their chest to indicate they didn't want to shake hands.

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.

We had Forgiveness Sunday yesterday, where every member of the congregation, kids, clergy, everyone asked for and received forgiveness from one another.  Lots of crying, everyone hugging.

Don't get me wrong, we wash our hands and take precautions, but I would be horrified at the thought that we couldn't do that or have communion from the common cup or a host of other things simply due to germ issues. 

A pastor of an Orthodox Church who knows a friend of mine (hence my access to the correspondence) sent this email to his flock:

Reverend Fathers, Stewards and Friends of St. Anna Parish,

In each and every service of the Orthodox Christian Church we pray in general terms for the whole of creation. Appropriately, we also call to mind instances and circumstances that demand our specific prayers, always asking God to have mercy. In recent days, our prayers ought to include those who are ailing, those who are caring for the sick, and those who researching, ever looking for cures that bring forth healing.

As news of the spread of the novel coronavirus (now referred to as COVID-19) has continued, it provides us the opportunity to pause, to pray and to consider our response as Orthodox Christians. I therefore share with you a few of my thoughts.

To help prevent the spread of respiratory viruses, including Covid-19 and the flu, the CDC has suggested the following:
·         Wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds. If soap and water are not available, use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer.
·         Avoid touching your eyes, nose, and mouth with unwashed hands.
·         Avoid close contact with people who are sick.
·         Stay home when you are sick.
·         Cover your cough or sneeze with a tissue, then throw the tissue in the trash.
·         Clean and disinfect frequently touched objects and surfaces.
 
Of course, these suggestions are just good habits for all us in any season and at any age.  We take logical steps to ensure our wellbeing as well as to care for all of our brothers and sisters in Christ.  Why not clean our icons and the blessing Cross between services, for instance? We should always take any and all appropriate measures to stay healthy regardless of season. And, as other recommendations are made, we incorporate them into our routines, be it at home, in the work place or at the parish, thanks be to God!

As a brother priest shared with his community though, fear and anxiety often increase at moments like this. Thankfully, Christians are not defined by fear. Rather, we put our trust and hope in Christ who is Himself Life. He is the One, the Physician, who brings healing of both body and soul, through the intercessions of the saints in the Church, which is likened unto a hospital. All of us then who are ailing in soul and or body, in each and every generation, find healing in Christ, in His Church and in His Mysteries.

How fitting it is that we will pray Holy Unction on Monday evening at 6pm as has been our tradition. Together, after asking one another for mutual forgiveness in Great Vespers on Sunday evening, we will in obedience to our Lord ask the Holy Spirit to consecrate olive oil so that when we are anointed by the priests, in fulfillment of Scripture, it will be unto our healing, forgiveness and salvation. Truly, God remains wondrous and glorious!
 
I should also add that the other practices of our Orthodox Christian Faith will continue to bring healing, most notably, the Holy Eucharist.  Although the instruments that we are using, that is the chalice and the spoon are imperfect, for well over a millennia, they have held and passed to us He Who is Perfect, He Who is Life, He Who is healing.   Again, we are not receiving symbols, rather we are receiving the actual Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! 

For those who are unaware, I should add that regardless of setting, be it in a monastery, in the parish or even in a hospital, the deacon or priest consumes whatever remains in the chalice or on a spoon after communing the faithful.  We consume what remains of the Holy Eucharist with thanksgiving knowing full well that it is Life, regardless of who receives before us. Is this not an ongoing miracle that takes place around the world in every monastery, parish and cathedral of our Orthodox Christian Church and in each and every generation?  Simply, we continue to humbly heed the admonition of the Deacon who directs us in the Liturgy, to receive the Holy Eucharist with “the fear of God, with faith and with love”...unto salvation, regardless of circumstances, because of He Who Is Christ our True God.

I would be remiss though we’re I not to write that all of the practices and disciplines of our faith, even the reception of the Holy Eucharist, are done voluntarily. There is no coercion to do something with which we are uncomfortable.  God is big enough to handle any of our questions and concerns, because He is patient, long-suffering and abounding in mercy towards and for all of us. Guilt is not attached to any practice; a spirit of humility is what characterizes our response to each and every awesome expression of God’s love for us.

In closing, these are simply my thoughts as we prepare to enter Great and Holy Lent and as we consider the spread of COVID-19.  Of course, I am not a medical doctor, but I do have the privilege of being a physician of souls, so to speak, in spite of my sins and unworthiness.  Let us then pray most fervently that Christ, Who is the Physician, will continue to heal and sustain all of His creation.

Most resp.,
And looking forward to praying services with you this weekend,

+fr. Christopher.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: GalRevRedux on March 02, 2020, 05:13:03 PM
This morning I attended a lecture by Dr. James Dobbins who is a University of Illinois epidemiologist working with the CDC. I learned a great deal about research, disease spread, the current issue and also the realities. He advocated for due caution but no panic.

One resource he recommended is this to-the-moment map from Johns Hopkins. Worth a look.
 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 (https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)

I will be happy to try and answer any questions regarding this presentation.

Donna

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 02, 2020, 06:39:47 PM

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you." 

Is that like 'the Force'?  8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 02, 2020, 06:41:45 PM

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.
 

That's how it was done pre-LBW.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 02, 2020, 07:53:22 PM

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.
 

That's how it was done pre-LBW.

Pax, Steven+


Yep.  Right before the Agnus Dei.  You got me nostalgic enough to give it a listen.  Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRJoEW8rsq4&list=PLmoig8AD9EEQTlUzForLfh6o59raON-nG&index=10)


BTW, I think that praying SBH Setting 2 imbued me with more faith as a young person than almost anything else.  That said, I couldn't help but wonder why Jesus would sitteth on the Father's right hand (or on his left hand, for that matter).  That sounded supremely uncomfortable for both Father and Son.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 02, 2020, 08:56:47 PM

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.
 

That's how it was done pre-LBW.


And long before SBH there was the "kiss of peace" in biblical times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 02, 2020, 09:02:42 PM

Because both Influenza A and B have been so prevalent here for the past two months, we have simply gone to "May the Peace... be with you."  and everyone responds, and then are seated without the sharing of the peace individually.  Likely will continue through Lent until we see the certain arrival of spring and the end of the flu season.  Not as personal to be sure, and not even sure if it's the proper thing to do, but we do it.
 

That's how it was done pre-LBW.

Pax, Steven+


Yep.  Right before the Agnus Dei.  You got me nostalgic enough to give it a listen.  Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRJoEW8rsq4&list=PLmoig8AD9EEQTlUzForLfh6o59raON-nG&index=10)


BTW, I think that praying SBH Setting 2 imbued me with more faith as a young person than almost anything else.  That said, I couldn't help but wonder why Jesus would sitteth on the Father's right hand (or on his left hand, for that matter).  That sounded supremely uncomfortable for both Father and Son.


I'm sure that the repetitive praying of SBG Setting 1 almost drove me out of the Lutheran Church. I found faith much more dynamic than the staid plainsong tunes in the liturgy. It was seeing guitars and a banjo from a singing group from LBI that gave me hope for Lutheranism. (They hadn't progressed to drums, yet.) Then there was the Rejoice Mass with folk instruments.


Here is the Nicene Creed from that liturgy sung George Erdner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oIuwpr0UTc
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 03, 2020, 07:05:14 AM
I'm sure that the repetitive praying of SBG Setting 1 almost drove me out of the Lutheran Church. I found faith much more dynamic than the staid plainsong tunes in the liturgy. It was seeing guitars and a banjo from a singing group from LBI that gave me hope for Lutheranism. (They hadn't progressed to drums, yet.)

Why?  Is it mere aesthetic preference?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 03, 2020, 07:45:35 AM
A friend, a doctor, posted this on FB today:

https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/03/02/infectious-disease-doctor-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR2LJRZK8bjyOV5wKJS6iUv6D2vn5AZf_ncGRRoELShM2A4vbxZSagm_9rk
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 03, 2020, 11:18:09 AM
A friend, a doctor, posted this on FB today:

https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/03/02/infectious-disease-doctor-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR2LJRZK8bjyOV5wKJS6iUv6D2vn5AZf_ncGRRoELShM2A4vbxZSagm_9rk

Excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Norman Teigen on March 05, 2020, 10:29:30 AM
Mike Pence's Prayer Circle was in the news today.  Is Pence headed in the right direction on this matter?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 05, 2020, 10:40:23 AM
Mike Pence's Prayer Circle was in the news today.  Is Pence headed in the right direction on this matter?

Unless one wishes to make the argument prayer is wrong, I don't see how he isn't.

Is anyone under the impression that Pence is ONLY praying about this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 05, 2020, 10:50:59 AM
Mike Pence's Prayer Circle was in the news today.  Is Pence headed in the right direction on this matter?
What on earth is newsworthy about Mike Pence praying? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on March 05, 2020, 11:52:02 AM
Mike Pence's Prayer Circle was in the news today.  Is Pence headed in the right direction on this matter?

Of course he is.  Next!

Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Norman Teigen on March 05, 2020, 12:40:13 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 05, 2020, 12:50:35 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?
What do you think is a reasonable thing to think about a Christian man who holds public office praying? Do you really see a conflict between praying about something and doing something about it to the best of your ability? Of course not. The idea is absurd and unworthy of being taken seriously. So why take seriously those who are acting (and they are acting) shocked that a Christian holding public office prays?

My issue with these prayer events is the staged nature of them. I don't pose for prayer, nor do I appreciate people taking pictures of me praying. A prayer as a photo-op is a bad thing. I tend to think that even about photos in the Lutheran Witness or whatever. Anything you do when you know you're being photographed changes. Nothing wrecks any piety like staged piety. Agreeing to be photographed praying seems to me like a problematic thing in and of itself. Can't say it is a sin or that there should be a rule against it. Can't even guarantee I would never do it. But there is something about it that rubs me the wrong way and which I find unseemly. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 05, 2020, 12:55:38 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?

What if Mike Pence really believes prayer works and thinks it's important to ask for God's guidance to help him navigate a very weighty and serious issue with human lives at stake?

Is there no place for charity in your recitation of the varying "somes" who hold views on Mike Pence praying?

As I said in the other thread, if you really don't like divisiveness, stop being divisive.  I can think of few things more divisive than bashing a man for praying before undertaking such a serious endeavor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 05, 2020, 12:56:55 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


The critique has been when prayers are offered rather than actions that are needed. Offering prayers for the people who lost everything in Puerto Rico wasn't helping them. They needed food and water. It's like what James writes in 2:15-16: "Imagine a brother or sister who is naked and never has enough food to eat. What if one of you said, 'Go in peace! Stay warm! Have a nice meal!'? What good is it if you don’t actually give them what their body needs?" (CEB)

If faith without works dead, couldn't we also say that prayers without works is dead?

I'm not arguing that VP Pence is not doing anything, but trying to explain why there have been criticisms about praying. Praying is a good thing. Praying as an excuse for inactivity is not good. Jesus also criticized those who used praying as a way to show off their piety.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 05, 2020, 01:02:21 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


I'm not sure that I understand the problem.  Political leaders in our country always have prayed and encouraged others to do so as well.  At our darkest hours, presidents have prayed very publicly.  This from FDR:


Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.
Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.
They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.
They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest-until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.
For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.
Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.
And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them--help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.
Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.
Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.
And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.
And, O Lord, give us Faith. Give us Faith in Thee; Faith in our sons; Faith in each other; Faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.
With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.
Thy will be done, Almighty God.
Amen."


While times have changed, both major parties are on course to nominate candidates for president whose lives overlapped with FDR's. 


By the way, the copy and paste functions that we all use in our daily lives does not play well with this forum's software.  I tried to delete all the many "size" and "color" notations from the quoted prayer.  I may or may not have succeeded.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 05, 2020, 01:06:10 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


The critique has been when prayers are offered rather than actions that are needed. Offering prayers for the people who lost everything in Puerto Rico wasn't helping them. They needed food and water. It's like what James writes in 2:15-16: "Imagine a brother or sister who is naked and never has enough food to eat. What if one of you said, 'Go in peace! Stay warm! Have a nice meal!'? What good is it if you don’t actually give them what their body needs?" (CEB)

If faith without works dead, couldn't we also say that prayers without works is dead?

I'm not arguing that VP Pence is not doing anything, but trying to explain why there have been criticisms about praying. Praying is a good thing. Praying as an excuse for inactivity is not good. Jesus also criticized those who used praying as a way to show off their piety.

Yep.

Mike Pence's Prayer Circle was in the news today.  Is Pence headed in the right direction on this matter?

Unless one wishes to make the argument prayer is wrong, I don't see how he isn't.

Is anyone under the impression that Pence is ONLY praying about this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 05, 2020, 01:18:30 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


The critique has been when prayers are offered rather than actions that are needed. Offering prayers for the people who lost everything in Puerto Rico wasn't helping them. They needed food and water.
So do you pray for those with terminal cancer? Or do you view praying for someone without helping them to be inherently hypocritical? I don't think anyone ever prayed for Puerto Rico in lieu of helping. There may have been difficulties involved with appropriation and logistics of giving aid, of differences about how much aid to allocate, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Christians should have been praying for the people there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 05, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


The critique has been when prayers are offered rather than actions that are needed. Offering prayers for the people who lost everything in Puerto Rico wasn't helping them. They needed food and water. It's like what James writes in 2:15-16: "Imagine a brother or sister who is naked and never has enough food to eat. What if one of you said, 'Go in peace! Stay warm! Have a nice meal!'? What good is it if you don’t actually give them what their body needs?" (CEB)

If faith without works dead, couldn't we also say that prayers without works is dead?

I'm not arguing that VP Pence is not doing anything, but trying to explain why there have been criticisms about praying. Praying is a good thing. Praying as an excuse for inactivity is not good. Jesus also criticized those who used praying as a way to show off their piety.

The difference between our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and you is He can see into our mind and heart ... your comment on praying to show off ones piety at minimum is a failure to place the best construction on the Vice President's prayer life....though it may even a sinful judgement of the man ... who exhibits his Christian faith on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 05, 2020, 01:39:09 PM
All you LCMS people should vigorously and vocally oppose government officials leading prayers at meetings of their agencies or committees.
The practice is guaranteed to lead to occasions of unionism, syncretism, and prayers by those denying Jesus Christ. It may also result in women taking spiritual leadership roles which, in your view, they should not assume.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 05, 2020, 01:39:18 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


The critique has been when prayers are offered rather than actions that are needed. Offering prayers for the people who lost everything in Puerto Rico wasn't helping them. They needed food and water.
So do you pray for those with terminal cancer? Or do you view praying for someone without helping them to be inherently hypocritical? I don't think anyone ever prayed for Puerto Rico in lieu of helping. There may have been difficulties involved with appropriation and logistics of giving aid, of differences about how much aid to allocate, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Christians should have been praying for the people there.


Yes, I pray; and I help them get the medical care they need - either in a hospital or with hospice. I also seek to discern if the prayers should be for healing or a peaceful death. What sort of help do they want from God?


I also consider the gift of presence to be an action that can be needed. In contrast, a friend was an associate pastor and the first time he and the lead pastor went to the hospital. The lead said, "You take these four names, and I'll take four names, and let's meet back here in 20 minutes." My friend was used to visiting with the hospitalized for much longer than five minutes.


Again, I said nothing against praying; but praying, like faith, without works is dead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Keith Falk on March 05, 2020, 01:45:31 PM
Public opinion on Mike Prince and his public prayer life is a sign of the  divisiveness of our time.  To some, Pence praying is a sign of public affirmation of the Divine, to others it is a  continuing appeal to his political base.  To still others, Mike Pence at prayer is a sign that we are really screwed.  Science, medicine, public policy?  Religion or politics?


If this was President Obama or Vice President Biden who had been photographed praying, would you be bothering to ask the question?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 05, 2020, 01:45:59 PM
The difference between our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and you is He can see into our mind and heart ... your comment on praying to show off ones piety at minimum is a failure to place the best construction on the Vice President's prayer life....though it may even a sinful judgement of the man ... who exhibits his Christian faith on a regular basis.


Where did I accuse the VP of showing off? That is, of being guilty of the critique Jesus gives?


I think that we can be critical of those who seem to be praying as a way of showing off their piety. I didn't say that VP Pence was doing that. I don't think he is doing that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 05, 2020, 01:55:33 PM
All you LCMS people should vigorously and vocally oppose government officials leading prayers at meetings of their agencies or committees.
The practice is guaranteed to lead to occasions of unionism, syncretism, and prayers by those denying Jesus Christ. It may also result in women taking spiritual leadership roles which, in your view, they should not assume.


Why do you insist on this kind of comment?  Why?  What in the world do you expect to accomplish other than the annoyance of some here and the sidetracking of our conversation?


It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 05, 2020, 02:01:00 PM
Mr. Gale:
It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
Me:
Wow! Small words and a valid question are a “detriment of the Body of Christ“?
Ok. I fraternally ask ... yada yada ... as you suggest.
Sorry you do not find my words genteel or polite enough. Blame it on 40+ years in New Jersey.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 05, 2020, 02:02:27 PM
Perhaps the problem for some is that VP Pence was guilty of PWR (Praying While Republican). Praying just to show off one's piety would be wrong, so would be offering prayers rather than doing what one can. As to the first, I cannot say what VP Pence's intention was. As to the second, manifestly, VP Pence is taking the responsibility assigned to him by the President to head up this effort seriously and he is not pursuing prayer as the only action needed.

Some object to any public figure (or at least any public figure that they don't like) publicly praying of being religious. Surely nobody in this conversation would fit into that category.

There may be good reasons to criticize VP Pence for his handling of this health crisis, although offhand I cannot think of any, but including prayer in his action should not be one of them. Personally, I think that it is a bit early to assign praise or blame for how this has been handled. How can we know how effective the response has been yet. So far, the Covid-19 outbreak has been barely a blip on the US health scene. It will likely get worse before it gets better no matter what we do short of shutting down the country, completely closing the boarders and guaranteeing everyone in their homes and that would cause many more problems than Covid-19 would likely do if we did nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 05, 2020, 02:07:44 PM
Mr. Gale:
It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
Me:
Wow! Small words and a valid question are a “detriment of the Body of Christ“?
Ok. I fraternally ask ... yada yada ... as you suggest.
Sorry you do not find my words genteel or polite enough. Blame it on 40+ years in New Jersey.
Charles just being Charles. He knows our reactions better than we do and saves us all time by scolding us for how we react without us having to actually say anything. In any case, he seems to prefer having conversations with us where we say nothing and let him put words in our mouths, makes his rebukes easier and clearer.

By the by, LCMS does not have the same position of "prayer fellowship" as does the WELS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 05, 2020, 02:29:46 PM
All you LCMS people should vigorously and vocally oppose government officials leading prayers at meetings of their agencies or committees.
The practice is guaranteed to lead to occasions of unionism, syncretism, and prayers by those denying Jesus Christ. It may also result in women taking spiritual leadership roles which, in your view, they should not assume.

Before you shoot off your mouth, perhaps you ought to learn what the LCMS teaches on this -- or any other -- subject.  As it is, you only show yourself to be a small, ignorant person.  Sorry if you do not find my words polite or genteel enough.  Blame it on having to put up with too many New Jerseyites.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 05, 2020, 02:36:44 PM
So what do you think on the matter itself, Pastor Bohler?
Does not the specter of unionism loom over events such as this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 05, 2020, 03:01:17 PM
Mr. Gale:
It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
Me:
Wow! Small words and a valid question are a “detriment of the Body of Christ“?
Ok. I fraternally ask ... yada yada ... as you suggest.
Sorry you do not find my words genteel or polite enough. Blame it on 40+ years in New Jersey.


You know better.  SMH.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 05, 2020, 03:01:58 PM
I don't know how representative of the LCMS I am on this matter (we don't all walk lock-step on such things), but in my opinion, for what it's worth, since we don't have a national religion or church here in America it would be best if government officials did not lead the kinds of prayers Rev. Austin mentions.  I am neither vigorous nor vocal on the matter because there is no way my views on prayer will be adopted by conservative, patriotic, God and country Americans who feel a need to pray whenever they get together with anyone to do anything at all.  David Scaer calls them "The Evangelical Prayer Crowd."  I'm not a part of that crowd and I don't want to be.  On the other hand, I think it is better to endure syncretistic prayers than to strip the public square of any reference to the Deity at all and to permit the radical secularists (who are usually Leftists to boot) take control. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 05, 2020, 03:42:38 PM
All you LCMS people should vigorously and vocally oppose government officials leading prayers at meetings of their agencies or committees.
The practice is guaranteed to lead to occasions of unionism, syncretism, and prayers by those denying Jesus Christ. It may also result in women taking spiritual leadership roles which, in your view, they should not assume.


Why do you insist on this kind of comment?  Why?  What in the world do you expect to accomplish other than the annoyance of some here and the sidetracking of our conversation?


It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.


We, and much of the world, saw how (some) of our LCMS friends reacted to prayers at Yankee Stadium. Some of the same complaints happened over prayers in Newtown. Has the LCMS changed since then?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 05, 2020, 03:50:42 PM
So what do you think on the matter itself, Pastor Bohler?
Does not the specter of unionism loom over events such as this?

To answer your questions:
1. It is proper for a Christian to pray for guidance, wisdom, and help.
2. No.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 05, 2020, 03:58:22 PM
All you LCMS people should vigorously and vocally oppose government officials leading prayers at meetings of their agencies or committees.
The practice is guaranteed to lead to occasions of unionism, syncretism, and prayers by those denying Jesus Christ. It may also result in women taking spiritual leadership roles which, in your view, they should not assume.


Why do you insist on this kind of comment?  Why?  What in the world do you expect to accomplish other than the annoyance of some here and the sidetracking of our conversation?


It would be fine to ask our LCMS friends fraternally how they regard prayer in the context being discussed.  Instead, your purpose seems to be nothing more lofty that petty provocation to the detriment of the Body of Christ.


We, and much of the world, saw how (some) of our LCMS friends reacted to prayers at Yankee Stadium. Some of the same complaints happened over prayers in Newtown. Has the LCMS changed since then?

No, the LCMS has not changed its position (which, I assume is what you mean) since either Yankee Stadium or Newtown.  LCMS clergy are still forbidden from engaging in joint worship services with clergy not in fellowship with the LCMS.  I am not aware that Vice President Pence was now a rostered member of the LCMS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 05, 2020, 05:03:40 PM
We attended the March for Life in Atlanta recently.  A very good friend, someone who attended our parish for a while but never joined, is a State Representative.  He is not my representative, but he is the representative of some of the folks who were there with us. As we were walking back to our cars we saw him ascending the Capitol steps. I yelled his name out and he came down to visit with us for a few minutes.

It was cold and windy and generally not a very nice day, but he spent a lot of time with us, took a picture, and then prayed with us.  I found it both salutary and comforting.  He's a good man.  I think having good men in office, while not a requirement, is a unique blessing.  Those of you who so despise President Trump might take notice that such a man occupies the Office of the Vice President.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 05, 2020, 05:27:53 PM
Again, I said nothing against praying; but praying, like faith, without works is dead.
No where does does God state that praying without works is dead ... in fact He clearly states the opposite in James 5:16
'The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much.'

[/size]Using your logic, there is no purpose in the 'Prayer Requests' ... thread on this forum ...prayer without works is dead.
[/size]I can hear the pastor on Sunday morning state 'Unless you plan to actively participate in the treatment of the ill  and shut in members of this congregation,  please don't waste your time praying for them because praying without works is dead (and useless).
[/size]Thank heavens you are retired ... I pity the congregation that would hear that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Norman Teigen on March 05, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
My late father was in the ELS and trained in Missouri.  He would have been aligned with those who did not do joint prayer but he would not approve of political prayers because he believed in the concept of the two realms, or the two kingdoms.  Political praying is the attempt to persuade the hearers that the thing prayed for is  of divine approval.   Honest governance is a matter of people  working out policy in a manner determined by the consent of the citizenry.  It is presumptuous from both a political and a religious point of view to ascribe divine approval on what humans do in civil affairs.  The liturgy of my home church contained a General Prayer which was common in all Lutheran churches:  "...Prosper what is good among us, and bring to naught every counsel and purpose. Protect and bless Thy servants, the President of the United States, the Governor of this Commonwealth, our Judges and Magistrates, and  all others in authority.  Fit them for their high calling by the gift of the Spirit of Thy wisdom and fear, that we might lead a quiet and peaceable life, in all godliness and honesty." I honestly think that this issue of not separating the two realms has diminished both the state and the church.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 05, 2020, 06:19:18 PM
Are you seriously trying to say that praying in the VP's office is mixing state and religion?  If you are then I have a really hard time understanding the logic, but possibly, I hope, I'm misunderstanding your point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 05, 2020, 08:38:50 PM
Again, I said nothing against praying; but praying, like faith, without works is dead.
No where does does God state that praying without works is dead ... in fact He clearly states the opposite in James 5:16
'The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much.'

Using your logic, there is no purpose in the 'Prayer Requests' ... thread on this forum ...prayer without works is dead.
I can hear the pastor on Sunday morning state 'Unless you plan to actively participate in the treatment of the ill  and shut in members of this congregation,  please don't waste your time praying for them because praying without works is dead (and useless).
Thank heavens you are retired ... I pity the congregation that would hear that.

Within the context, James 5:16 is about prayers for healing. I doubt that God will miraculously have a motorcycle show up in my garage no matter how much I pray for one.

Also, for James, "being righteous" is about works. (Note: "being righteous" and "justified" are different ways of translating the same Greek word.

2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road?

For James, the righteous one who prays is righteous because of works.

I think of a group of college-aged students who, back during the charismatic phase, prayed that God would show them which college they should go to. They didn't research colleges. They didn't send in applications. They waited for some sign from God. I see that as prayer without works.

So also a friend who was convinced that God had healed him of his diabetes through prayer (of his righteous friends). Checking his blood sugar would be a sign of disbelief. He ended up in the hospital. That was prayer without works.

I just visited with a friend in the hospital today. She was supposed to have surgery yesterday for a blockage in her intestine; but her surgeon got sick and it was postponed. This morning she had a contrasting scan done. It showed no blockage. She is still in the hospital and will be eating some food before fully claiming that she is healed. She had hundreds of people praying for her; but she still sought the expertise of doctors and hospital staff. That is prayer that also works.

The Prayer Requests thread isn't just requests for prayers. There is also follow up questions and concern about how the sick are doing. It encouraged some folks to attend a funeral. (Maybe they would have anyway without the announcement of the death in the thread.) 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: DeHall1 on March 05, 2020, 09:20:01 PM
Within the context, James 5:16 is about prayers for healing. I doubt that God will miraculously have a motorcycle show up in my garage no matter how much I pray for one.

Also, for James, "being righteous" is about works. (Note: "being righteous" and "justified" are different ways of translating the same Greek word.

2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road?

For James, the righteous one who prays is righteous because of works.

I think of a group of college-aged students who, back during the charismatic phase, prayed that God would show them which college they should go to. They didn't research colleges. They didn't send in applications. They waited for some sign from God. I see that as prayer without works.

So also a friend who was convinced that God had healed him of his diabetes through prayer (of his righteous friends). Checking his blood sugar would be a sign of disbelief. He ended up in the hospital. That was prayer without works.

I just visited with a friend in the hospital today. She was supposed to have surgery yesterday for a blockage in her intestine; but her surgeon got sick and it was postponed. This morning she had a contrasting scan done. It showed no blockage. She is still in the hospital and will be eating some food before fully claiming that she is healed. She had hundreds of people praying for her; but she still sought the expertise of doctors and hospital staff. That is prayer that also works.

The Prayer Requests thread isn't just requests for prayers. There is also follow up questions and concern about how the sick are doing. It encouraged some folks to attend a funeral. (Maybe they would have anyway without the announcement of the death in the thread.)

Here you go: https://babylonbee.com/news/coronavirus-passes-over-houses-with-cfa-sauce
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 05, 2020, 09:23:00 PM
You know, the context of this train of thought on prayer is the Vice-President of the United States, formerly the Governor of Indiana and 6-term Congressman, praying as he is about to meet with people and perhaps make decisions on the Federal Government's response to a serious public health issue that, while not (yet) impacting public health in the US very much, has thrown international trade and the stock market into a major tizzy.

He's not a Jehovah's Witness who doesn't believe in doctors, or a Christian Scientist who believes everything is a figment of the mind, or a Missouri Synod pastor trying to represent the church in a grand "spiritual" event, or a college student who is new to the Christian faith thanks to a charismatic experience who thinks opening the Bible and pointing her finger will divine the answer as to where she should go to college and what major she will have, or a (grown-up?) child for whom prayer is akin to sitting on Santa's lap three weeks before Christmas.

Seems to me a serious person addressing a serious matter deserves a serious conversation among serious people on a serious forum, rather than silly flights of fancy.

Christe eleison, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: SomeoneWrites on March 06, 2020, 12:36:44 PM
You know, the context of this train of thought on prayer is the Vice-President of the United States, formerly the Governor of Indiana and 6-term Congressman, praying as he is about to meet with people and perhaps make decisions on the Federal Government's response to a serious public health issue that, while not (yet) impacting public health in the US very much, has thrown international trade and the stock market into a major tizzy.

He's not a Jehovah's Witness who doesn't believe in doctors, or a Christian Scientist who believes everything is a figment of the mind, or a Missouri Synod pastor trying to represent the church in a grand "spiritual" event, or a college student who is new to the Christian faith thanks to a charismatic experience who thinks opening the Bible and pointing her finger will divine the answer as to where she should go to college and what major she will have, or a (grown-up?) child for whom prayer is akin to sitting on Santa's lap three weeks before Christmas.

Seems to me a serious person addressing a serious matter deserves a serious conversation among serious people on a serious forum, rather than silly flights of fancy.

Christe eleison, Steven+

I agree with you for the most part.
I can say I'm uncomfortable with this particular VP being put in charge of a something related to medicine/science.  He has argued for "teaching the controversy"(1) in front of congress and has not accepted the science regarding climate change(2). 

(1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=189&v=ikax0Y0NJsY&feature=emb_logo
(2)https://www.desmogblog.com/mike-pence

I think my discomfort is warranted.  I do hope he has sound advisers and listens to them appropriately. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 06, 2020, 01:03:09 PM
Yeah. Like the president listens to his advisers. He can announce the statistics from the Center for disease control, and then say “but you know I got a hunch those statistics are wrong.”
Heavens!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 06, 2020, 01:36:41 PM
You know, the context of this train of thought on prayer is the Vice-President of the United States, formerly the Governor of Indiana and 6-term Congressman, praying as he is about to meet with people and perhaps make decisions on the Federal Government's response to a serious public health issue that, while not (yet) impacting public health in the US very much, has thrown international trade and the stock market into a major tizzy.

He's not a Jehovah's Witness who doesn't believe in doctors, or a Christian Scientist who believes everything is a figment of the mind, or a Missouri Synod pastor trying to represent the church in a grand "spiritual" event, or a college student who is new to the Christian faith thanks to a charismatic experience who thinks opening the Bible and pointing her finger will divine the answer as to where she should go to college and what major she will have, or a (grown-up?) child for whom prayer is akin to sitting on Santa's lap three weeks before Christmas.

Seems to me a serious person addressing a serious matter deserves a serious conversation among serious people on a serious forum, rather than silly flights of fancy.

Christe eleison, Steven+

I agree with you for the most part.
I can say I'm uncomfortable with this particular VP being put in charge of a something related to medicine/science.  He has argued for "teaching the controversy"(1) in front of congress and has not accepted the science regarding climate change(2). 

(1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=189&v=ikax0Y0NJsY&feature=emb_logo
(2)https://www.desmogblog.com/mike-pence

I think my discomfort is warranted.  I do hope he has sound advisers and listens to them appropriately.
Climate change is a totally different issue than anything to do with medicine. Why trust medicine to someone who denies the science of when life begins? A pro-choice person, therefore, cannot possibly be trusted to fight the outbreak of a virus. I suspect that if I seriously made that argument, you would (rightfully) see the absurdity. Of course a pro-choice person, despite denying basic science about human biology, could still oversee a strategy to fight a contagious disease.

Too many people use the word “science” as though science in the abstract says things. Scientists say things. And they disagree with each other, and even the consensus changes. My question to you is, what do you think Pence would do to screw up a national response to a virus because he doesn’t accept the “accepted” view of climate science?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 06, 2020, 01:55:53 PM

Seems to me a serious person addressing a serious matter deserves a serious conversation among serious people on a serious forum, rather than silly flights of fancy.


I agree with you for the most part.
I can say I'm uncomfortable with this particular VP being put in charge of...

Someone, you and I have some rather serious disagreements on this forum.  I'll note, however, that you hadn't contributed to this topic when I wrote what I did.  And even when I think you're wrong or perhaps even deluded, your arguments are here not unserious or, as I described above, "silly flights of fancy."

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: SomeoneWrites on March 06, 2020, 10:08:28 PM
Climate change is a totally different issue than anything to do with medicine. Why trust medicine to someone who denies the science of when life begins? A pro-choice person, therefore, cannot possibly be trusted to fight the outbreak of a virus. I suspect that if I seriously made that argument, you would (rightfully) see the absurdity. Of course a pro-choice person, despite denying basic science about human biology, could still oversee a strategy to fight a contagious disease.

Too many people use the word “science” as though science in the abstract says things. Scientists say things. And they disagree with each other, and even the consensus changes. My question to you is, what do you think Pence would do to screw up a national response to a virus because he doesn’t accept the “accepted” view of climate science?

I feel what you posted is a bit of a strawman.  I recognize Pence could be completely wrong about everything and could still do a fine job at handling a response to a virus. 
Physics is not geology, but both are scientific fields.   Pence chose not to listen to the national center for science education and mischaracterized what makes a scientific theory (and also missed the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision on ID) and wanted to influence public policy on a scientific/educational matter.  It is also appears evident that Pence chose not to listen to climatologists and their particular fields of experience/research.  So my concern is how much he listens to the CDC and researches on the issue.  Doesn't mean he will screw it up.  But I am concerned about how he relates to his advisers.  And like i said I hope he listens. 

How could he screw up?  I think he could screw up by not listening to the scientists and their conclusions. 


Someone, you and I have some rather serious disagreements on this forum.  I'll note, however, that you hadn't contributed to this topic when I wrote what I did.  And even when I think you're wrong or perhaps even deluded, your arguments are here not unserious or, as I described above, "silly flights of fancy."

Pax, Steven+

All good.  I didn't take your comments at me.  Like I said, I agree with you for the most part.  I just read about Pence mentioned my discomfort with his track record. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 06, 2020, 10:38:21 PM
Our son lives and works in Seattle. All of the tech companies have told employees who can, to work at home. Since our son is writing code to program a medical robot, he has to be where the robot is. He is going to work. Cafes that are usually full when he walks to work are mostly empty. Traffic which is usually horrible, is almost non-existent. He works with a bunch of medical doctors and many are married to medical doctors. He gets the latest on what is known about the virus and its spread in Washington State.


One of the problems is that no one is sure how long between exposure and when symptoms begin to appear. It was first thought to be 1 to 14 days. A new report says that it can be as long as 24 days. They aren't sure if the people are contagious during the incubation period. Some people have the virus, but show no symptoms; but they may infect others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 07, 2020, 09:18:06 AM
Climate change is a totally different issue than anything to do with medicine. Why trust medicine to someone who denies the science of when life begins? A pro-choice person, therefore, cannot possibly be trusted to fight the outbreak of a virus. I suspect that if I seriously made that argument, you would (rightfully) see the absurdity. Of course a pro-choice person, despite denying basic science about human biology, could still oversee a strategy to fight a contagious disease.

Too many people use the word “science” as though science in the abstract says things. Scientists say things. And they disagree with each other, and even the consensus changes. My question to you is, what do you think Pence would do to screw up a national response to a virus because he doesn’t accept the “accepted” view of climate science?

I feel what you posted is a bit of a strawman.  I recognize Pence could be completely wrong about everything and could still do a fine job at handling a response to a virus. 
Physics is not geology, but both are scientific fields.   Pence chose not to listen to the national center for science education and mischaracterized what makes a scientific theory (and also missed the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision on ID) and wanted to influence public policy on a scientific/educational matter.  It is also appears evident that Pence chose not to listen to climatologists and their particular fields of experience/research.  So my concern is how much he listens to the CDC and researches on the issue.  Doesn't mean he will screw it up.  But I am concerned about how he relates to his advisers.  And like i said I hope he listens. 

How could he screw up?  I think he could screw up by not listening to the scientists and their conclusions. 


Someone, you and I have some rather serious disagreements on this forum.  I'll note, however, that you hadn't contributed to this topic when I wrote what I did.  And even when I think you're wrong or perhaps even deluded, your arguments are here not unserious or, as I described above, "silly flights of fancy."

Pax, Steven+

All good.  I didn't take your comments at me.  Like I said, I agree with you for the most part.  I just read about Pence mentioned my discomfort with his track record.
Scientists don’t all say the same thing. Nor is the scientist trained to make policy recommendations. Scientists say, “In these conditions, this happens.” Policy-makers take it from there.

Furthermore, scientists (as a community of consensus) tend not to apologize when they’re wrong. If you listen to them and they’re wrong, you bear the blame, they go on to say something else, demanding to have their words taken as the Gospel truth once again.

Scientists also are as political as anyone else. There are studies that are verboten. There are dogmas that must not be challenged in the scientific community, and those rebels who do get ostracized.

So I’m all for taking science seriously and scientists as fallen, error-prone, politically driven, and self promoting as anyone else, including politicians. Today’s progressives tend to regard scientists as some sort of holy caste. That’s why I posted what I did upstream about the beginning of life, and why it is not a straw man, but quite pertinent. Do you believe someone who thinks human life does not begin at conception is a science denier? Why or why not?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: SomeoneWrites on March 07, 2020, 10:56:06 AM

Scientists don’t all say the same thing. Nor is the scientist trained to make policy recommendations. Scientists say, “In these conditions, this happens.” Policy-makers take it from there.


I feel this is misleading.  You don't find 100% agreement in any community.  However, you will find a number of things as "settled science" with a preponderance of evidence.  Otherwise it's a subject that is dealing with the purely theoretical (not to be confused with a scientific theory).   
As for policy training, I know that the people at the CDC and NCSE have policy training.  Which climatologists have policy training I can't say cause I haven't looked into it that deeply, but I'm not quite willing to declare there are none. 

Furthermore, scientists (as a community of consensus) tend not to apologize when they’re wrong. If you listen to them and they’re wrong, you bear the blame, they go on to say something else, demanding to have their words taken as the Gospel truth once again.
This feels out of left field.  "Demanding to have their words taken as Gospel truth once again."  I'm gently asking,  what are you talking about?


Scientists also are as political as anyone else. There are studies that are verboten. There are dogmas that must not be challenged in the scientific community, and those rebels who do get ostracized.
You'll need to unpack this one. 

So I’m all for taking science seriously and scientists as fallen, error-prone, politically driven, and self promoting as anyone else, including politicians. Today’s progressives tend to regard scientists as some sort of holy caste.

All humans make errors, have personal politics, and self-promote.  Yes.  On this we agree.  I'm not a progressive, but I don't see any of them taking scientists as some sort of holy caste.  I see their frustration when well supported science gets ignored for theological or political reasons.  I think you're witnessing that, but attributing it to something else. 

That’s why I posted what I did upstream about the beginning of life, and why it is not a straw man, but quite pertinent. Do you believe someone who thinks human life does not begin at conception is a science denier? Why or why not?

What you wrote was still a strawman.  And you shifted things a bit, and kinda threw in some bait as well.  I don't like seeing that.

It's not a single instance, but a pattern and continuation of that pattern.  You linked that to pro-choice as well person as well.   A pro-choice person may still think that that conception of human life in it's most nascent form.   
Someone who disagrees with that I think is denying the scientific research.  If they go on to deny other aspects of well supported scientific research I will add layers of discomfort to someone in charge of something related to science - medical or otherwise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 07, 2020, 11:27:04 AM
Perhaps if we go back to the beginning of this sub thread. What decision did Pence make that rejected the scientific consensus that causes you to be uncomfortable with the idea of him in charge of policy?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: SomeoneWrites on March 07, 2020, 11:50:43 AM
Perhaps if we go back to the beginning of this sub thread. What decision did Pence make that rejected the scientific consensus that causes you to be uncomfortable with the idea of him in charge of policy?

Let me try and state it this way.
So he goes to congress appealing for creationism in the classroom.  He demonstrates both that he doesn't understand what makes a scientific theory and that he's rejecting the scientific consensus on the matter.  This deals with policy regarding science and education. 
He demonstrates that he's misinformed about climate science and that he's rejecting the scientific consensus on the matter.  This deals with policy regarding science and things like the EPA and regulations.
He is put in a position to lead the way on a disease outbreak.  He will hearing from the people in fields of medical science.  I am uncomfortable with his track record of listening to the scientific community. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 07, 2020, 12:30:58 PM
So Someone, you have nothing to complain about how he is handling his responsibilities in managing the Coronavirus, you just don't like how he has dealt with other unrelated issues, so he must go?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 07, 2020, 12:43:08 PM
Should Marxism be taught in public schools? It is thoroughly discredited. But it is one historically significant way of understanding things.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 07, 2020, 12:46:37 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 07, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 07, 2020, 01:07:46 PM
if any of you are streaming your worship you can send me the links.

I would if I was on the other side of the Pacific begin planning for something similar.

Best wishes to all and a blessed Lent

James
A week after James initiated this thread, I think I speak for all of us praying that he and others his area of the world remain healthly and virus free and wish him a continued Blessed Lententide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: SomeoneWrites on March 07, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
So Someone, you have nothing to complain about how he is handling his responsibilities in managing the Coronavirus, you just don't like how he has dealt with other unrelated issues, so he must go?

How did you come to that conclusion based on my saying "I hope he listens?"
I see you don't see a connection between the issues.  I don't see where you're seeing me say or suggest "he must go."

Should Marxism be taught in public schools? It is thoroughly discredited. But it is one historically significant way of understanding things.

What do you mean with this question?  My answer largely depends on what you mean.  If i'm drawing on your exchange with Charles Austin, I'm hearing Marxism can be taught about in sociological/economical history.  I've got no problem with Christianity being taught in a comparative religions class or even with regards to history.  Genesis isn't necessary in a class on Earth Science, even historically speaking. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 07, 2020, 01:49:57 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 07, 2020, 02:14:58 PM
Peter writes:
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?
I comment:
You can teach that some people believe that way. And you can also teach that most people don’t.
You can teach the Christianity influenced the strain of racism that brought us slavery and the Ku Klux Klan.
And you can teach that Christianity brought us the abolition of slavery, liberation theology, and a new look at what constitutes civil rights for all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 07, 2020, 03:31:19 PM
Peter writes:
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?
I comment:
You can teach that some people believe that way. And you can also teach that most people don’t.
You can teach the Christianity influenced the strain of racism that brought us slavery and the Ku Klux Klan.
And you can teach that Christianity brought us the abolition of slavery, liberation theology, and a new look at what constitutes civil rights for all.

You can, and would be correct but incomplete.

It was Progressive racists who glommed onto Darwin and Science to give an intellectual basis for their race hatred. So let's tell the truth about the misuse of Christianity by all means. But let's not forget that it was "Science" that gave as the Death Camps and the Gulags, and the Eugenics movement here in the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 07, 2020, 03:47:36 PM

I suppose that if the Republicans had really been on the ball, like the Democrats would have been if they had been elected, then a year ago they would have been preparing a vaccine for the Corona Virus Covid-19 and been stockpiling gear to help protect people from the virus and contain the outbreak.


Like it or not, and I know Democrats and their friends don't like it, the Republicans were elected to office and have the responsibility to deal with this novel health threat. Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 07, 2020, 05:51:28 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Me:
How’s this for a response? The president, our leader, the one most in charge of managing the crisis, cites statistics from the Center for disease control on the death rate from the virus, and then says “but you know, I’ve got a hunch it’s not that high.”
Then he says, contrary to what the actual suppliers say, that we have enough test kits and everybody has access to one.
Then, he’s down in Florida playing golf. He was critical of President Obama’s vacation time and golf playing, and he’s already done more of those things than his predecessor.
In my not so humble opinion, a true leader would be in his office day after day paying attention to how the situation is being handled.
But you probably have a different view.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: dkeener on March 08, 2020, 09:17:38 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Me:
How’s this for a response? The president, our leader, the one most in charge of managing the crisis, cites statistics from the Center for disease control on the death rate from the virus, and then says “but you know, I’ve got a hunch it’s not that high.”
Then he says, contrary to what the actual suppliers say, that we have enough test kits and everybody has access to one.
Then, he’s down in Florida playing golf. He was critical of President Obama’s vacation time and golf playing, and he’s already done more of those things than his predecessor.
In my not so humble opinion, a true leader would be in his office day after day paying attention to how the situation is being handled.
But you probably have a different view.


It is the 21st century Charles. One does not need to be "in the office" day after day to be fully informed or to make critical decisions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 08, 2020, 09:57:57 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Me:
How’s this for a response? The president, our leader, the one most in charge of managing the crisis, cites statistics from the Center for disease control on the death rate from the virus, and then says “but you know, I’ve got a hunch it’s not that high.”
Then he says, contrary to what the actual suppliers say, that we have enough test kits and everybody has access to one.
Then, he’s down in Florida playing golf. He was critical of President Obama’s vacation time and golf playing, and he’s already done more of those things than his predecessor.
In my not so humble opinion, a true leader would be in his office day after day paying attention to how the situation is being handled.
But you probably have a different view.


It is the 21st century Charles. One does not need to be "in the office" day after day to be fully informed or to make critical decisions.

Yeah, I'm guessing he has one of those cell phone thingies.  After all, it IS a necessity of life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 08, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Democrats ignore the science on embryology literally all the time.  Nobody ever calls them "science deniers" even though they literally are.

Honestly, this just smacks of more of the tired old "Republicans are all stupid" line. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 08, 2020, 10:46:40 AM
Not all Republicans are stupid. But some are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 08, 2020, 10:55:38 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Me:
How’s this for a response? The president, our leader, the one most in charge of managing the crisis, cites statistics from the Center for disease control on the death rate from the virus, and then says “but you know, I’ve got a hunch it’s not that high.”
Then he says, contrary to what the actual suppliers say, that we have enough test kits and everybody has access to one.
Then, he’s down in Florida playing golf. He was critical of President Obama’s vacation time and golf playing, and he’s already done more of those things than his predecessor.
In my not so humble opinion, a true leader would be in his office day after day paying attention to how the situation is being handled.
But you probably have a different view.
It is the 21st century Charles. One does not need to be "in the office" day after day to be fully informed or to make critical decisions.
Yeah, I'm guessing he has one of those cell phone thingies.  After all, it IS a necessity of life.
More likely that Rev Austin suffers from the TDS pandemic  ;D
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 08, 2020, 11:44:12 AM
Not all Republicans are stupid. But some are.
And so are some Democrats.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 08, 2020, 12:33:54 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.

The term “history” needs more unpacking.  What is history and the historical?  I think folks are operating out of different conceptual universes or biases. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 08, 2020, 12:35:09 PM
Democrats ignore the science on embryology literally all the time.  Nobody ever calls them "science deniers" even though they literally are.

Honestly, this just smacks of more of the tired old "Republicans are all stupid" line.


As we all learned in grade school, science is not so much a list of established principles as it is a method for testing hypotheses regarding observable phenomena.  Applying the scientific method to some phenomena has enabled us to conclude with nearly absolute certainty that hypotheses are correct.  Sometimes, this process requires little formal testing.  For example, we need no expert help to conclude that gravity will almost certainly keep us attached to the earth.  By contrast, most problems studied by professional scientists are enormously complex.  This absolutely includes scientific inquiry into climate and the causes of climate change throughout the earth's history.


This brings us to the great irony that almost invariably arises in debates over climate and climate change.  Prudent people understand that the climate changes constantly and that sometime those changes are drastic.  The land now making up New York City once sat under a mile or two of ice.  Just a few thousand years ago, much of the Sahara Desert was lush and fertile.  Prudent people also understand that humans can and do effect climate changes.  And indeed, the use of fossil fuels certainly does influence and change climate.


That said, prudent people also understand the need for substantially more information than this in deciding what policies make sense in response to the changing climate.  What precisely are the causes of particular changes to climate?  What are the good and bad consequences of these changes?  Who will benefit and who will be harmed?  What steps might mitigate the bad changes?  At what cost?  To whom?  And what benefit would each change bring?  All these questions and more need to be answered for policy makers to decide wisely.


This is where we often encounter activists screeching "science denier," often motivated by a sincere belief that the end of the world is nigh and that we all need to repent.  The deep irony here is that this cri de coeur is generally applied to those who are arguing that we need to apply science to a complex problem in order to arrive at the wisest possible policies.  Oddly, many of these folks genuinely believe that a call to follow the scientific method wherever it might lead--in other words, a call to do more science--is a denial of science.


Almost every time I am accused of denying the science, I am met with arguments that are decidedly anti-science.  The science is "settled," I'm told.  Really?  Science related to anything as complex as climate is almost never really settled.  But okay.  Fine.  Tell me, I ask, the answers supplied by science to the questions I've listed above.  This usually leads to no substantive response.  The science is too complicated to understand, I'm told.  Only our high priests scientists can understand.  And among this group, there is consensus.  Okay.  Fine.  What precisely is the consensus?  How was it reached?  And what policies does it justify?  These questions are generally met with nothing of substance, growing frustration, and more name calling. 


At this point, with no good scientific responses, activists often fall back on emotionalism of the sort epitomized by the decidedly non-scientific Greta Thunberg.


There's an old saying among lawyers that when the facts or law are on a client's side, the lawyer in court will pound on the facts or the law.  But when neither is on the client's side, the lawyer has no choice but to pound the table.  You don't resort to pounding the table unless you have no choice because in so doing, you are implicitly conceding that the facts and law are against you. 


The orchestrated rise of Greta Thunberg is table pounding of the highest order. 


Climate and climate change absolutely must be part of our policy debates.  Sadly, so long as those calling for scientific inquiry are smeared as "science deniers" by those whose real commitment is not scientific at all, but rather almost theological, the right debates won't happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 08, 2020, 01:23:01 PM
This post is more connected to local congregational life as Eucharistic community at this phase of the coronavirus outbreak.  New York's Governor has called a state of emergency; I think the mayor is not far behind. 

We took about a half hour of time and then another half hour after church today to work this through, including portions of the message.  I spoke about the things that pertain to the Divine Service at our place - the altar servers, the eucharist itself, the sharing of Christ's peace, the interactions among worshipers, the Sunday School, etc.  Special emphasis was placed on seniors and those with existing health conditions.  Normally in the eucharist we have common cup, intinction cup and individual cup.  Today I drank from the common cup and put it out of service, and the blood of Christ was received only through individual cups.  This is by no means my preferred practice, but it alleviated substantial anxiety, and is not prohibited at any rate.  Two worshipers chose to walk through but not receive the Lord's Meal but only a blessing - the rest including our children who have made their first holy communion received the Meal in both kinds.  Prior to setting up the altar during the offertory, all altar servers used sanitizer which was visible to the congregants.  They used the sanitizer after the Meal as well in open view.

All of that was painful to me.  What was in a sense more painful was that rather than the fifteen minute sharing of the Peace after holding hands in a circle and singing the Lord's Prayer, everyone sang without holding hands and then shared the Peace in far less personal ways (a peace sign, an elbow bump, etc.).  After the benediction I ruminated on how hard that was, and later our newer attendees told me that the diverse loving community gathered in worship to hear the Gospel is what drew and keeps them at St. Peter's. 

However, after I was done with my sharing, we had a parishioner who is in Health Education with the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene speak to us for about fifteen minutes concerning practices and habits, anxiety and interaction, and the need to be wise in our practices at this time.  Amazingly pertinent; and she met with us in the parish hall to distribute various pamphlets (how to talk to children) in English and Spanish, and to give us hand sanitizer packets.  Next week we'll do some hand-washing practice (it's not as easy as you'd think!).  She ended with encouragement to prayer and guidance and dependence on God; we then closed with an Andrea Crouch song, "Through it All," which left things the way they should be "Through it all/Through it all/I've learned to trust in Jesus/I have learned to trust in God."  Which are my sentiments to you all.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 08, 2020, 01:35:51 PM
Indiana has its first case this week, but it was down in Indy. We’re near Chicago, which had among the first cases in the U.S. But we haven’t encountered any anxiety at all. Communion went on as usual, which always includes a choice of chalice or individual cups. I didn’t notice anyone changing their normal preference, though I wasn’t really paying attention either. Our exchange of peace included a note in the bulletin about respecting the wishes of those who preferred not to shake hands, but that was in there before thus virus became a thing.

Attendance was light. Could have been the time change, or could have been people wanting avoid crowds. Tough to say.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 08, 2020, 01:48:22 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.

The term “history” needs more unpacking.  What is history and the historical?  I think folks are operating out of different conceptual universes or biases.


Factual might be a better term. Often I've used both: historical and factual. However, even those can be a bit confusing.


"Did it really happen?" What does "it" refer to?


It could refer to the first two human beings who were given the names Adam (Humanity) and Eve (Life) who were created out of dirt and a rib. If someone had a movie camera, they could have filmed these two in a luscious garden. "They really existed."


It could refer to the people's belief in the myth of the first two humans. We have the Jewish/Christian myth; and many other myths (some quite similar to the biblical account) about the genesis of the universe. "People really believed it." It is historical and factual that many children believe Santa Clause comes down the chimney and leaves presents on Christmas morning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 08, 2020, 01:51:59 PM
This morning our parish simply eliminated the “sharing of the peace.” We, mostly Scandinavians, are, I think, not that fond of body-to-body contact anyway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 08, 2020, 02:06:07 PM
Democrats ignore the science on embryology literally all the time.  Nobody ever calls them "science deniers" even though they literally are.

Honestly, this just smacks of more of the tired old "Republicans are all stupid" line.


As we all learned in grade school, science is not so much a list of established principles as it is a method for testing hypotheses regarding observable phenomena.  Applying the scientific method to some phenomena has enabled us to conclude with nearly absolute certainty that hypotheses are correct.  Sometimes, this process requires little formal testing.  For example, we need no expert help to conclude that gravity will almost certainly keep us attached to the earth.  By contrast, most problems studied by professional scientists are enormously complex.  This absolutely includes scientific inquiry into climate and the causes of climate change throughout the earth's history.


This brings us to the great irony that almost invariably arises in debates over climate and climate change.  Prudent people understand that the climate changes constantly and that sometime those changes are drastic.  The land now making up New York City once sat under a mile or two of ice.  Just a few thousand years ago, much of the Sahara Desert was lush and fertile.  Prudent people also understand that humans can and do effect climate changes.  And indeed, the use of fossil fuels certainly does influence and change climate.


That said, prudent people also understand the need for substantially more information than this in deciding what policies make sense in response to the changing climate.  What precisely are the causes of particular changes to climate?  What are the good and bad consequences of these changes?  Who will benefit and who will be harmed?  What steps might mitigate the bad changes?  At what cost?  To whom?  And what benefit would each change bring?  All these questions and more need to be answered for policy makers to decide wisely.


This is where we often encounter activists screeching "science denier," often motivated by a sincere belief that the end of the world is nigh and that we all need to repent.  The deep irony here is that this cri de coeur is generally applied to those who are arguing that we need to apply science to a complex problem in order to arrive at the wisest possible policies.  Oddly, many of these folks genuinely believe that a call to follow the scientific method wherever it might lead--in other words, a call to do more science--is a denial of science.


Almost every time I am accused of denying the science, I am met with arguments that are decidedly anti-science.  The science is "settled," I'm told.  Really?  Science related to anything as complex as climate is almost never really settled.  But okay.  Fine.  Tell me, I ask, the answers supplied by science to the questions I've listed above.  This usually leads to no substantive response.  The science is too complicated to understand, I'm told.  Only our high priests scientists can understand.  And among this group, there is consensus.  Okay.  Fine.  What precisely is the consensus?  How was it reached?  And what policies does it justify?  These questions are generally met with nothing of substance, growing frustration, and more name calling. 


At this point, with no good scientific responses, activists often fall back on emotionalism of the sort epitomized by the decidedly non-scientific Greta Thunberg.


There's an old saying among lawyers that when the facts or law are on a client's side, the lawyer in court will pound on the facts or the law.  But when neither is on the client's side, the lawyer has no choice but to pound the table.  You don't resort to pounding the table unless you have no choice because in so doing, you are implicitly conceding that the facts and law are against you. 


The orchestrated rise of Greta Thunberg is table pounding of the highest order. 


Climate and climate change absolutely must be part of our policy debates.  Sadly, so long as those calling for scientific inquiry are smeared as "science deniers" by those whose real commitment is not scientific at all, but rather almost theological, the right debates won't happen.


I think it's even more complicated than you indicate. For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited. So, they compromise, science tells us that certain materials and structures can withstand an earthquake of 8 on the scale; and that they happen only about once a year somewhere in the world. The odds that one might happen close enough to collapse the bridge are slim enough to take the risk and save greatly on the cost of materials and construction. They build bridges that they know will collapse should a catastrophic earthquake happen.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 08, 2020, 02:09:57 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.

The term “history” needs more unpacking.  What is history and the historical?  I think folks are operating out of different conceptual universes or biases.


Factual might be a better term. Often I've used both: historical and factual. However, even those can be a bit confusing.


"Did it really happen?" What does "it" refer to?


It could refer to the first two human beings who were given the names Adam (Humanity) and Eve (Life) who were created out of dirt and a rib. If someone had a movie camera, they could have filmed these two in a luscious garden. "They really existed."


It could refer to the people's belief in the myth of the first two humans. We have the Jewish/Christian myth; and many other myths (some quite similar to the biblical account) about the genesis of the universe. "People really believed it." It is historical and factual that many children believe Santa Clause comes down the chimney and leaves presents on Christmas morning.

I make a distinction between the time when Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden and prevented from returning into Eden.  History begins from the point at which Adam was turned away from Eden to go forward away from Eden never to re-enter Eden again.  History occurs when the first person takes up management of his own affairs without noticing or being near God constantly.  (However one cannot be really away from God because his nearness is constant and, since his exile, threatening.)



Prior to the exile, history and time have no preview but we do “see” into it via the narrative in Genesis 1-3 here by what is conveyed to us by God.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 08, 2020, 02:29:40 PM
But we haven’t encountered any anxiety at all. Communion went on as usual, which always includes a choice of chalice or individual cups. I didn’t notice anyone changing their normal preference, though I wasn’t really paying attention either. Our exchange of peace included a note in the bulletin about respecting the wishes of those who preferred not to shake hands, but that was in there before thus virus became a thing.

Attendance was light. Could have been the time change, or could have been people wanting avoid crowds. Tough to say.

Our attendance was above average, and there were many more people than normal receiving Communion, which, in the Orthodox Church, is served by the Priest using a gold spoon to place a particle of the Lamb with wine from the Chalice directly into the mouth of the recipient.

One reason for the uptick was that the first Sunday of Great Lent (remember, we started the Fast only this past Monday) is the Sunday of Orthodoxy, which commemorates the restoration of the Icons following the Seventh Ecumenical Council during the 9th century.  The day is to the Orthodox what Reformation Sunday is to Lutherans.

At the close of the Divine Liturgy dozens of children carrying their favorite Icon from home followed the Priest and Altar Boys in a procession around the Nave.   At each corner of the Nave the Procession halted, as always, for petitions.  But the petition for protection from "earthquake, fire, pestilence, and foreign invasion" took on a whole new layer of meaning.  Suddenly the 9th century felt very contemporary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: MaddogLutheran on March 08, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
Democrats ignore the science on embryology literally all the time.  Nobody ever calls them "science deniers" even though they literally are.

Honestly, this just smacks of more of the tired old "Republicans are all stupid" line.


As we all learned in grade school, science is not so much a list of established principles as it is a method for testing hypotheses regarding observable phenomena.  Applying the scientific method to some phenomena has enabled us to conclude with nearly absolute certainty that hypotheses are correct.  Sometimes, this process requires little formal testing.  For example, we need no expert help to conclude that gravity will almost certainly keep us attached to the earth.  By contrast, most problems studied by professional scientists are enormously complex.  This absolutely includes scientific inquiry into climate and the causes of climate change throughout the earth's history.


This brings us to the great irony that almost invariably arises in debates over climate and climate change.  Prudent people understand that the climate changes constantly and that sometime those changes are drastic.  The land now making up New York City once sat under a mile or two of ice.  Just a few thousand years ago, much of the Sahara Desert was lush and fertile.  Prudent people also understand that humans can and do effect climate changes.  And indeed, the use of fossil fuels certainly does influence and change climate.


That said, prudent people also understand the need for substantially more information than this in deciding what policies make sense in response to the changing climate.  What precisely are the causes of particular changes to climate?  What are the good and bad consequences of these changes?  Who will benefit and who will be harmed?  What steps might mitigate the bad changes?  At what cost?  To whom?  And what benefit would each change bring?  All these questions and more need to be answered for policy makers to decide wisely.


This is where we often encounter activists screeching "science denier," often motivated by a sincere belief that the end of the world is nigh and that we all need to repent.  The deep irony here is that this cri de coeur is generally applied to those who are arguing that we need to apply science to a complex problem in order to arrive at the wisest possible policies.  Oddly, many of these folks genuinely believe that a call to follow the scientific method wherever it might lead--in other words, a call to do more science--is a denial of science.


Almost every time I am accused of denying the science, I am met with arguments that are decidedly anti-science.  The science is "settled," I'm told.  Really?  Science related to anything as complex as climate is almost never really settled.  But okay.  Fine.  Tell me, I ask, the answers supplied by science to the questions I've listed above.  This usually leads to no substantive response.  The science is too complicated to understand, I'm told.  Only our high priests scientists can understand.  And among this group, there is consensus.  Okay.  Fine.  What precisely is the consensus?  How was it reached?  And what policies does it justify?  These questions are generally met with nothing of substance, growing frustration, and more name calling. 


At this point, with no good scientific responses, activists often fall back on emotionalism of the sort epitomized by the decidedly non-scientific Greta Thunberg.


There's an old saying among lawyers that when the facts or law are on a client's side, the lawyer in court will pound on the facts or the law.  But when neither is on the client's side, the lawyer has no choice but to pound the table.  You don't resort to pounding the table unless you have no choice because in so doing, you are implicitly conceding that the facts and law are against you. 


The orchestrated rise of Greta Thunberg is table pounding of the highest order. 


Climate and climate change absolutely must be part of our policy debates.  Sadly, so long as those calling for scientific inquiry are smeared as "science deniers" by those whose real commitment is not scientific at all, but rather almost theological, the right debates won't happen.

Wonderfully stated.  The people screaming "science deniers" refuse to recognize that science cannot make cost/benefit judgments on public policy.  The best "scientific" answer to the coronavirus cruise ship problem would be to euthanize all the passengers.  In fact, I saw one kook climate champion (certainly not reflective of the entire movement) suggest the climate needed more coronavirus action.   :-\
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 08, 2020, 02:38:53 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.

The term “history” needs more unpacking.  What is history and the historical?  I think folks are operating out of different conceptual universes or biases.


Factual might be a better term. Often I've used both: historical and factual. However, even those can be a bit confusing.


"Did it really happen?" What does "it" refer to?


It could refer to the first two human beings who were given the names Adam (Humanity) and Eve (Life) who were created out of dirt and a rib. If someone had a movie camera, they could have filmed these two in a luscious garden. "They really existed."


It could refer to the people's belief in the myth of the first two humans. We have the Jewish/Christian myth; and many other myths (some quite similar to the biblical account) about the genesis of the universe. "People really believed it." It is historical and factual that many children believe Santa Clause comes down the chimney and leaves presents on Christmas morning.

I make a distinction between the time when Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden and prevented from returning into Eden.  History begins from the point at which Adam was turned away from Eden to go forward away from Eden never to re-enter Eden again.  History occurs when the first person takes up management of his own affairs without noticing or being near God constantly.  (However one cannot be really away from God because his nearness is constant and, since his exile, threatening.)



Prior to the exile history and time have no preview but we do “see” into it via the narrative in Genesis 1-3


Many outlines I've seen consider Genesis 1-11 as "pre-history". It relates a period of time before there was writing and any written records. They are events that were written down centuries after they might have happened.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: MaddogLutheran on March 08, 2020, 02:40:00 PM
I think it's even more complicated than you indicate. For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited. So, they compromise, science tells us that certain materials and structures can withstand an earthquake of 8 on the scale; and that they happen only about once a year somewhere in the world. The odds that one might happen close enough to collapse the bridge are slim enough to take the risk and save greatly on the cost of materials and construction. They build bridges that they know will collapse should a catastrophic earthquake happen.
Actually, Mr. Gale captured the complexity you're talking about very well.  These are the exact kind of tradeoffs the climate crowd which has rallied around Greta won't consider.  If the United States and Europe went zero emissions tomorrow, the output of China and India would, according to their models, still cause the warming catastrophe.  So even if we met their "demands" it would only be the West which suffered.

So for example, the kind of "zero emission" vehicle they might approve of isn't technologically possible at a price point affordable to existing car owners.  Sure, one is conceivable but at an astronomical price.  THAT'S what the science says, including economics.  Banning the internal combustion engine in favor of this mythical beast is effectively banning private transport.  And as I already explained, it STILL would not prevent the outcome they fear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 08, 2020, 02:42:13 PM
Marxism, And a lot of other isms that we don’t like, should be taught in schools. They should be taught as historical happenings. How could you teach history of the 20th century without teaching the history of Marxism?
How can you teach Christianity without Genesis and the historical fact that some people regard Genesis as historical?


The same way we teach other myths that people considered historical, e.g., Greek, Roman, Norse, and Teutonic gods and goddesses.

The term “history” needs more unpacking.  What is history and the historical?  I think folks are operating out of different conceptual universes or biases.


Factual might be a better term. Often I've used both: historical and factual. However, even those can be a bit confusing.


"Did it really happen?" What does "it" refer to?


It could refer to the first two human beings who were given the names Adam (Humanity) and Eve (Life) who were created out of dirt and a rib. If someone had a movie camera, they could have filmed these two in a luscious garden. "They really existed."


It could refer to the people's belief in the myth of the first two humans. We have the Jewish/Christian myth; and many other myths (some quite similar to the biblical account) about the genesis of the universe. "People really believed it." It is historical and factual that many children believe Santa Clause comes down the chimney and leaves presents on Christmas morning.

I make a distinction between the time when Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden and prevented from returning into Eden.  History begins from the point at which Adam was turned away from Eden to go forward away from Eden never to re-enter Eden again.  History occurs when the first person takes up management of his own affairs without noticing or being near God constantly.  (However one cannot be really away from God because his nearness is constant and, since his exile, threatening.)



Prior to the exile history and time have no preview but we do “see” into it via the narrative in Genesis 1-3


Many outlines I've seen consider Genesis 1-11 as "pre-history". It relates a period of time before there was writing and any written records. They are events that were written down centuries after they might have happened.

Yes.  Again it depends on how one defines their terms and out of what preconditions one agrees and then uses as foundational for their position in the discussion
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 08, 2020, 02:44:38 PM
I think it's even more complicated than you indicate. For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited. So, they compromise, science tells us that certain materials and structures can withstand an earthquake of 8 on the scale; and that they happen only about once a year somewhere in the world. The odds that one might happen close enough to collapse the bridge are slim enough to take the risk and save greatly on the cost of materials and construction. They build bridges that they know will collapse should a catastrophic earthquake happen.
Actually, Mr. Gale captured the complexity you're talking about very well.  These are the exact kind of tradeoffs the climate crowd which has rallied around Greta won't consider.  If the United States and Europe went zero emissions tomorrow, the output of China and India would, according to their models, still cause the warming catastrophe.  So even if we met their "demands" it would only be the West which suffered.

So for example, the kind of "zero emission" vehicle they might approve of isn't technologically possible at a price point affordable to existing car owners.  Sure, one is conceivable but at an astronomical price.  THAT'S what the science says, including economics.  Banning the internal combustion engine in favor of this mythical beast is effectively banning private transport.  And as I already explained, it STILL would not prevent the outcome they fear.


However, there are things we can do, that are cost efficient, that can reduce our carbon footprint. Whether or not it slows climate change remains to be seen. People could make greater use of mass transit rather than thousands of individuals driving their own cars. (Neither of our sons own cars.) People could switch to low cost (and low energy use) LED lights throughout their houses. That can reduce the emissions of power plants.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 08, 2020, 02:49:11 PM

For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited.

I find it curious how common it is for "science" and engineering to be conflated.

Until a science can find a hypothesis that can accurately predict what is actually happening, there is no "scientific consensus." 

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RandyBosch on March 08, 2020, 03:06:30 PM

For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited.

I find it curious how common it is for "science" and engineering to be conflated.

Until a science can find a hypothesis that can accurately predict what is actually happening, there is no "scientific consensus." 

Pax, Steven+

Far up the East Fork of the San Gabriel River in Southern California you will find an engineer-designed concrete bridge that has withstood all earthquakes, floods and landslides since it was built in the 1930's.  There is no road leading to either end of the "Bridge to Nowhere", since all traces of construction of that road were obliterated by the late-1930's and later floods.  The sciences of geology and of meteorology long ago identified the erosive nature of the substrate at the site and the likelihood of massive floods in the steep terrain.
Scientific "consensus" was not comprehended by the engineers. 
   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 08, 2020, 03:37:07 PM

For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited.

I find it curious how common it is for "science" and engineering to be conflated.

Until a science can find a hypothesis that can accurately predict what is actually happening, there is no "scientific consensus." 

Pax, Steven+

Which is why I fulminate at the alleged expertise of Bill Nye the Science Engineering Guy. As the meme says, that awkward moment when you realize Ivan Drago has more science education than Bill Nye.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 08, 2020, 04:13:36 PM
Our attendance was down slightly this morning, most likely because of Daylight Savings Time, or maybe the rain, or maybe they heard I was preaching.  ;D  I preached on the call of Abraham, reflecting on what it is that God calls us to "leave behind" as we go on this journey of faith. I mentioned three things: (1) our need for security and comfort, (2) our fears (and here I mentioned some of our fears like Covid-19, drought, fire, etc.), and I suggested that I wasn't saying we should be irresponsible about dealing with issues in our life, but that God calls us to be mindful but not fearful; and (3) our sins--called to leave them with Christ and journey on. There was some other stuff too but that was the gist of the middle part of the sermon. (It should be posted later today on YouTube; just search for Emmanuel Episcopal Church, Grass Valley and it should come up.)

I did notice today a shift in passing of the peace and greeting--not unanimous but probably more than half chose some option other than shaking hands. We clergy have made it clear that we'll do whatever anybody needs to be done. With communion, I didn't notice much change in people's usual practice (I'd say maybe 75% intinction, the rest drinking from the chalice). There were a handful who refrained from the chalice, most of whom had had some sort of cold symptoms and so chose not to receive. We did suggest to chalice bearers that they hold the chalice very low so that those who wished to intinct (or who just forgot) could see where the wine was and not inadvertently stick their fingers into it. In distributing the hosts, I tried to avoid touching people's hands (which usually I make it a point to do). The clergy talked this week about suggestions from some quarters that we simply not offer the chalice for a season, and the conversation lasted about five seconds. We're not doing that, at least unless things get a lot more problematic. The congregation, of course, has no "individual cups" so that is not an option. We'll just keep reminding people to be "mindful but not fearful."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 08, 2020, 04:55:04 PM
Excellent reflection by my friend Pr. Bill Cwirla (who, incidentally, has a science background) about what Luther might say about all this (based on his writing "Whether One May Flee from a Deadly Plague"):  http://htlcms.org/2020/03/luther-on-epidemics/?fbclid=IwAR2Nd28x2EWdGwS4gV8LXCM6ZCmzE2rSmSvTSbkEph5VIvVM6zGHEfFfwV8 (http://htlcms.org/2020/03/luther-on-epidemics/?fbclid=IwAR2Nd28x2EWdGwS4gV8LXCM6ZCmzE2rSmSvTSbkEph5VIvVM6zGHEfFfwV8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 08, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
This post is more connected to local congregational life as Eucharistic community at this phase of the coronavirus outbreak.  New York's Governor has called a state of emergency; I think the mayor is not far behind. 

We took about a half hour of time and then another half hour after church today to work this through, including portions of the message.  I spoke about the things that pertain to the Divine Service at our place - the altar servers, the eucharist itself, the sharing of Christ's peace, the interactions among worshipers, the Sunday School, etc.  Special emphasis was placed on seniors and those with existing health conditions.  Normally in the eucharist we have common cup, intinction cup and individual cup.  Today I drank from the common cup and put it out of service, and the blood of Christ was received only through individual cups.  This is by no means my preferred practice, but it alleviated substantial anxiety, and is not prohibited at any rate.  Two worshipers chose to walk through but not receive the Lord's Meal but only a blessing - the rest including our children who have made their first holy communion received the Meal in both kinds.  Prior to setting up the altar during the offertory, all altar servers used sanitizer which was visible to the congregants.  They used the sanitizer after the Meal as well in open view.

All of that was painful to me.  What was in a sense more painful was that rather than the fifteen minute sharing of the Peace after holding hands in a circle and singing the Lord's Prayer, everyone sang without holding hands and then shared the Peace in far less personal ways (a peace sign, an elbow bump, etc.).  After the benediction I ruminated on how hard that was, and later our newer attendees told me that the diverse loving community gathered in worship to hear the Gospel is what drew and keeps them at St. Peter's. 

However, after I was done with my sharing, we had a parishioner who is in Health Education with the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene speak to us for about fifteen minutes concerning practices and habits, anxiety and interaction, and the need to be wise in our practices at this time.  Amazingly pertinent; and she met with us in the parish hall to distribute various pamphlets (how to talk to children) in English and Spanish, and to give us hand sanitizer packets.  Next week we'll do some hand-washing practice (it's not as easy as you'd think!).  She ended with encouragement to prayer and guidance and dependence on God; we then closed with an Andrea Crouch song, "Through it All," which left things the way they should be "Through it all/Through it all/I've learned to trust in Jesus/I have learned to trust in God."  Which are my sentiments to you all.

Dave Benke

Out of curiosity: why did you drink from the common cup and THEN "put it out of service"?  Why not just announce that, for the time being, everyone would be offered the individual cups only -- and follow that yourself?  Was there some liturgical significance to the pastor using it and then putting it away?  Or was it to show the gravity/sorrow of the situation?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 08, 2020, 05:24:37 PM
This post is more connected to local congregational life as Eucharistic community at this phase of the coronavirus outbreak.  New York's Governor has called a state of emergency; I think the mayor is not far behind. 

We took about a half hour of time and then another half hour after church today to work this through, including portions of the message.  I spoke about the things that pertain to the Divine Service at our place - the altar servers, the eucharist itself, the sharing of Christ's peace, the interactions among worshipers, the Sunday School, etc.  Special emphasis was placed on seniors and those with existing health conditions.  Normally in the eucharist we have common cup, intinction cup and individual cup.  Today I drank from the common cup and put it out of service, and the blood of Christ was received only through individual cups.  This is by no means my preferred practice, but it alleviated substantial anxiety, and is not prohibited at any rate.  Two worshipers chose to walk through but not receive the Lord's Meal but only a blessing - the rest including our children who have made their first holy communion received the Meal in both kinds.  Prior to setting up the altar during the offertory, all altar servers used sanitizer which was visible to the congregants.  They used the sanitizer after the Meal as well in open view.

All of that was painful to me.  What was in a sense more painful was that rather than the fifteen minute sharing of the Peace after holding hands in a circle and singing the Lord's Prayer, everyone sang without holding hands and then shared the Peace in far less personal ways (a peace sign, an elbow bump, etc.).  After the benediction I ruminated on how hard that was, and later our newer attendees told me that the diverse loving community gathered in worship to hear the Gospel is what drew and keeps them at St. Peter's. 

However, after I was done with my sharing, we had a parishioner who is in Health Education with the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene speak to us for about fifteen minutes concerning practices and habits, anxiety and interaction, and the need to be wise in our practices at this time.  Amazingly pertinent; and she met with us in the parish hall to distribute various pamphlets (how to talk to children) in English and Spanish, and to give us hand sanitizer packets.  Next week we'll do some hand-washing practice (it's not as easy as you'd think!).  She ended with encouragement to prayer and guidance and dependence on God; we then closed with an Andrea Crouch song, "Through it All," which left things the way they should be "Through it all/Through it all/I've learned to trust in Jesus/I have learned to trust in God."  Which are my sentiments to you all.

Dave Benke

I was raised and confirmed in a Lutheran congregation with individual  cup only ... as a youth and young adult thought nothing of practice...my first 2 years of college were spent at CUAA in the mid '70's where we alternated weekly between the common cup and individual cup ...except during the winter flu months when the common cup was shelved for a month or so.
My confirming pastor was a second generation pastor who along with his father served various congregations (never the same congregation) over 70+ years.  Observing the elders work following the Divine Service, an occasional individual cup had up to half of its contents remaining and was told that there were alchoholics who communed and chose not to fully consume the contents. We had been taught in confirmation that the God would not allow a communicant to stumble as receiving the Sacramental elements ...and that neither he or his father ever have a communicant suffer a relapse as a result of communing.
Presently the congregation I attend gives us a choice ... and as of today still does.  To be CLEAR I fully support the choice of the individual communicant as to the method used.
I do oppose a theology of fear which gives credence to a thought that receiving sacramental element(s) could be physically harmful. Giving into fear most often happens substituting grape juice for wine ... and yes I am fully aware that the term 'wine' is never used ... just as I am aware that it was impossible to have unfermented fruit of the vine when the Lord instituted the Sacrament. When the Lord says do this ... this is fermented fruit of the vine.
It grieves me that the saints of St. Peter's are being denied the choice of the common or individual cup.
Our congregation initiated the 'pastoral fist bump' though I shook his hand pre service :)  [size=78%].. [/size]the American sign language 'Peace be with you' was used since we have deaf among us. While the pastor and elders identified the Sacrament as 'point of risk', nothing further was mentioned.[size=78%]
[/size]  As stated above, personal choice is good ... corporate decision to withhold the common cup conveys false theology of fear.[size=78%]
[/size]I plan to share these concerns with pastor and the elder.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 08, 2020, 08:22:25 PM

For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited.

I find it curious how common it is for "science" and engineering to be conflated.

Until a science can find a hypothesis that can accurately predict what is actually happening, there is no "scientific consensus." 


I watched as a civil engineer scientifically tested the strength of cement. He had a compression machine that increased the pressure on the sample of cement until it would burst (if he continued the test). Once it passed the threshold that was necessary for the project.


He also tested the melting point of blacktop in a microwave oven.


We have a structural engineer in the congregation. I believe that there is "scientific consensus" about the strength of different sizes of beams, and what materials that they need to be made of.


Our son has a degree in electrical engineering. There is scientific consensus about things electricity does. We are pretty sure that when we turn a switch to on, it completes a circuit that turns on a light or a computer.


Part of scientific consensus is that when you do the same thing over and over again, the same results happen each time. That is the science behind engineering. Mathematical formulas are created for the strength of cement or wood or metal. Formulas are created for what electricity will do. (Some of those are when imaginary numbers are actually used, i.e., the square root of a negative number.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 08, 2020, 10:02:24 PM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Marshall Hahn on March 09, 2020, 12:04:39 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Isn't it a little early to render a final verdict on how they managed this crisis. Suggestions on what should be done should be welcome and considered. But rendering judgment that they aren't responding at all adequately and couldn't because they don't have the proper ideology seems premature.
Me:
How’s this for a response? The president, our leader, the one most in charge of managing the crisis, cites statistics from the Center for disease control on the death rate from the virus, and then says “but you know, I’ve got a hunch it’s not that high.”
Then he says, contrary to what the actual suppliers say, that we have enough test kits and everybody has access to one.

It is quite difficult in the early stages of an epidemic like this to have a clear picture of its extent and a clear handle on the level of danger it poses.  It is that uncertainty that can be the most unsettling.  It may very well be that Trump's hunch will prove to be correct:

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNews

Marshall Hahn
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 09, 2020, 05:37:15 AM
From today’s New York Times (emphasis added):
The State Department on Sunday advised Americans against traveling on cruise ships, warning that they presented a higher risk of coronavirus infection and made U.S. citizens vulnerable to possible international travel restrictions, including quarantines.
The decision came after President Trump resisted requests from administration officials to publicly urge older travelers to avoid cruise ships and plane travel, saying he thought it would harm those industries, according to two people familiar with the discussions.
“U.S. citizens, particularly travelers with underlying health conditions, should not travel by cruise ship,” the State Department wrote in an alert posted to its website Sunday.
Americans should not rely on being evacuated if other countries subject them to quarantine, the department said.
The guidance signaled another escalation in the Trump administration’s efforts to ward off the fast-growing spread of the virus, and another instance of what appeared to be separation between health officials and the president, who has repeatedly registered skepticism over making statements he believes are alarmist.

I comment:
So the President’s concern is not to “harm those industries”?
When his - repeat his - health officials advise what to do to protect people?
This bothers me. Probably not you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 09, 2020, 08:49:54 AM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke

Thank you for your explanation, but I have to say that I still don't get why -- after the congregation had decided to only use individual cups -- you had the assistants put "just enough" wine in the common cup for you to drink and then "put it out of service".  Why not just use the individual cup yourself, as the rest of the congregation?  Was there some significance to you drinking from it one last time that I am not getting?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 09, 2020, 09:06:53 AM
My wife and I are scheduled to take a cruise at the end of April and with the newest State Department advisory will have to reevaluate.  It's disappointing, but I have some of those 'underlying health concerns' that they frequently mention.  The risk seems to be much larger than my desire for a nice vacation. 

At church this morning we implemented our first health safety precautions by eliminating the shaking of hands before service and by me afterwards.  One benefit: the line went faster and church emptied out at record speeds as people just moved along without stopping. :)

I plan to retain the common cup for now. Given past tests on disease transmission via the common cup I am not convinced yet that I have to do this.  I did notice that the CoE is now advising communing in "one kind."  BTW, using individual cups has its own hazzards.  If the communicant takes the cup they risk touching those in the immediate proximity to their cup.  If the celebrant does it he could inadvertently pass something along via his own hands. Whoever does it you have to touch the rim of the cup to remove it.  Not so with a common cup. You cannot remove the risk entirely, whether by suspending the common cup or not. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 09:11:19 AM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke

Thank you for your explanation, but I have to say that I still don't get why -- after the congregation had decided to only use individual cups -- you had the assistants put "just enough" wine in the common cup for you to drink and then "put it out of service".  Why not just use the individual cup yourself, as the rest of the congregation?  Was there some significance to you drinking from it one last time that I am not getting?

There is no significance to it other than the simple determination to consume the wine in the chalice when communing.  The congregation determined to utilize the individual cups, the altar guild preparers had placed a little wine in the chalice, which I elevate in consecration, so that I wouldn't be elevating and consecrating an empty chalice, and I consumed the consecrated wine in the chalice in communing myself.  There was no more consecrated wine in the chalice, and the congregants were not going to receive the common cup.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 09:17:29 AM
My wife and I are scheduled to take a cruise at the end of April and with the newest State Department advisory will have to reevaluate.  It's disappointing, but I have some of those 'underlying health concerns' that they frequently mention.  The risk seems to be much larger than my desire for a nice vacation. 

At church this morning we implemented our first health safety precautions by eliminating the shaking of hands before service and by me afterwards.  One benefit: the line went faster and church emptied out at record speeds as people just moved along without stopping. :)

I plan to retain the common cup for now. Given past tests on disease transmission via the common cup I am not convinced yet that I have to do this.  I did notice that the CoE is now advising communing in "one kind."  BTW, using individual cups has its own hazzards.  If the communicant takes the cup they risk touching those in the immediate proximity to their cup.  If the celebrant does it he could inadvertently pass something along via his own hands. Whoever does it you have to touch the rim of the cup to remove it.  Not so with a common cup. You cannot remove the risk entirely, whether by suspending the common cup or not.

Thanks for your thoughts.  We did have conversation yesterday about the servers touching the individual cups, and
a) made a point of having the servers use the sanitizer prior to serving the Eucharist
b) spoke about the way the recipients would handle the individual cups.

The intinction cup is far more likely to be problematic, especially if the recipients are doing the intincting.   

As you state, the risk cannot be removed entirely.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 09, 2020, 09:20:11 AM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke

Thank you for your explanation, but I have to say that I still don't get why -- after the congregation had decided to only use individual cups -- you had the assistants put "just enough" wine in the common cup for you to drink and then "put it out of service".  Why not just use the individual cup yourself, as the rest of the congregation?  Was there some significance to you drinking from it one last time that I am not getting?
That the chalice is part of the ceremony, and he did not want it to be empty, lest it be an empty part of the ceremony.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 09, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
So that we may maintain a balance of concern without becoming controlled by fear:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-ten-reasons-not-to-panic?fbclid=IwAR01u46J4_oBnStTaA3Fo_TMouFN2l5AQ6lQPeKl5gbO_oT6u48tThI6t2Y (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-ten-reasons-not-to-panic?fbclid=IwAR01u46J4_oBnStTaA3Fo_TMouFN2l5AQ6lQPeKl5gbO_oT6u48tThI6t2Y)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 09, 2020, 09:52:00 AM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke

Thank you for your explanation, but I have to say that I still don't get why -- after the congregation had decided to only use individual cups -- you had the assistants put "just enough" wine in the common cup for you to drink and then "put it out of service".  Why not just use the individual cup yourself, as the rest of the congregation?  Was there some significance to you drinking from it one last time that I am not getting?
That the chalice is part of the ceremony, and he did not want it to be empty, lest it be an empty part of the ceremony.

OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.

By the way, thank you, Dr. Benke, for your explanations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 09, 2020, 10:38:52 AM
Brief amplification concerning today's service in Brooklyn.  The first half hour session concerning worship practice was a conversation with those in the congregation.  I indicated options, and their response to options was unanimously to utilize the individual cups.  Normally we have three options for receiving the blood of Christ - common cup, intinction cup, and individual cups.  So the conversation eliminated the intinction cup and common cup, and just enough wine was placed in the common cup by the assistants for me to drink at the beginning of the Eucharist. 

The conversational approach, although time-consuming, kept us focused on the desire to receive the Sacrament, on the grace of God which would be there in abundance, and on the need not to fear but approach with faith in God.  Good stuff - it's an interesting time, as new folks are entering the fellowship this winter.

Dave Benke

Thank you for your explanation, but I have to say that I still don't get why -- after the congregation had decided to only use individual cups -- you had the assistants put "just enough" wine in the common cup for you to drink and then "put it out of service".  Why not just use the individual cup yourself, as the rest of the congregation?  Was there some significance to you drinking from it one last time that I am not getting?
That the chalice is part of the ceremony, and he did not want it to be empty, lest it be an empty part of the ceremony.

OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.

By the way, thank you, Dr. Benke, for your explanations.
It would seem that the individual cup tray could be elevated in place of the chalice which may be a good opportunity to teach that other than our Lord's Words of Institution the actions involved in the consecration are ceremonial audiophoria.


If the level of trust (or transparency) the congregation requires that the use of hand sanitizer be visible to the congregants,  perhaps the preparation of the individual cup trays should been visible to the congregants as well. The preparation of the trays involves handling each and every individual cup which is far more critical from a health prospective than the worship assistants offering the individual tray to the communicants with hand sanitizer sanitized hands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 09, 2020, 10:46:04 AM
Not to belabor the point I made earlier about keeping fear out of the Eucharistic rite, but rather to further it, I wonder if, leaving aside the concerns about whether the Lord's Body and Blood will harm us, there have been any studies about communicating diseases via a common cup?

It seems to me the antiviral properties of alcohol, gold and silver would alleviate at least some of that concern.  Granted, when you commune as Lutherans and most others do in 2 kinds, it may be a greater concern when handling the Body.  For our part, the body is submersed in wine so I would think that goes a long way to alleviate even that concern.  Not to get into a discussion of whether our practice is appropriate or yours more appropriate, but rather simply to ask -- is that the main concern, handling of the host?

The other thing is when we are sick, generally we go up last, with only the servers (priests, deacon, subdeacons and acolytes) going after that person, and then the deacon (or priest) consumes all the remaining gifts.  So there is at least some limitation of exposure there.  Frankly, I'd be a lot more concerned about someone sneezing beside me in church than someone communing before me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 09, 2020, 11:08:06 AM
Not to belabor the point I made earlier about keeping fear out of the Eucharistic rite, but rather to further it, I wonder if, leaving aside the concerns about whether the Lord's Body and Blood will harm us, there have been any studies about communicating diseases via a common cup?

It seems to me the antiviral properties of alcohol, gold and silver would alleviate at least some of that concern. 
Interesting point especially since the use of individual cups removes the use of the gold/silver vessels and in place introduces glass and/or plastic cups.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 09, 2020, 11:14:34 AM
Not to belabor the point I made earlier about keeping fear out of the Eucharistic rite, but rather to further it, I wonder if, leaving aside the concerns about whether the Lord's Body and Blood will harm us, there have been any studies about communicating diseases via a common cup?

It seems to me the antiviral properties of alcohol, gold and silver would alleviate at least some of that concern. 
Interesting point especially since the use of individual cups removes the use of the gold/silver vessels and in place introduces glass and/or plastic cups.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 09, 2020, 11:23:15 AM
Michigan has so far been spared a Covid-19 outbreak so we are not yet taking serious precautions. But here is a thought, what about moistening the napkin used to wipe the common cup between tables with vodka as a disinfectant. Not only would the alcohol in the vodka provide some germ killing properties, but a damp cloth would do a more efficient job of wiping the cup.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 11:36:49 AM
If the level of trust (or transparency) the congregation requires that the use of hand sanitizer be visible to the congregants,  perhaps the preparation of the individual cup trays should been visible to the congregants as well. The preparation of the trays involves handling each and every individual cup which is far more critical from a health prospective than the worship assistants offering the individual tray to the communicants with hand sanitizer sanitized hands.

I'm sure there could be congregations where the trust level is low when it comes to times and occurrences such as coronavirus.  Ours is not one of them.  So transparency is the requirement.  We conversed about and explained the process of preparation of the individual cups and of the common cup and intinction cup to the congregants, with special mention of hand sanitizer and sanitized handwear having been used in that preparation.  Again, transparency allows for more confidence. 

In speaking with staff who attend other congregations this morning, some of them did indeed have the Eucharist with reception limited to the host.  Cases of the virus are beginning to turn up in Queens/Brooklyn and this will only be heightened in NYC for at least the near term.

I researched the data on transmission of bacteria/viruses through the common cup in great to overwhelming detail twice already in my long stay at St. Peter's.

Once it had to do with me personally.  Unbeknownst to me, I had contracted infectious hepatitis, while serving as a hospital chaplain part time in the roughest neighborhood in NY during its roughest period.  That is a long story, but the result was a deep dig into the common cup and its gold/silver linings and wipings.  Second, the AIDS epidemic hit inner urban neighborhoods with a vengeance during the 1980s, caused predominantly by transmission through drug use/dirty needles and drug paraphenalia.   That caused another time of research, and ended in a reasonably high number of parishioners receiving the Eucharist only in one kind, the host.  These occurrences called for maximum conversation and transparency about both fears and realities. 

These days, since there is no flu shot for corona virus, and since vaccinations are viewed as and in many ways are the cure-all, the fear level is high.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: MaddogLutheran on March 09, 2020, 12:01:16 PM
I think it's even more complicated than you indicate. For example, a civil engineer for the State of California told me that they could build bridges that would withstand earthquakes that reach 10 on the Richter scale. Science tells us how they can do that; but the costs are prohibited. So, they compromise, science tells us that certain materials and structures can withstand an earthquake of 8 on the scale; and that they happen only about once a year somewhere in the world. The odds that one might happen close enough to collapse the bridge are slim enough to take the risk and save greatly on the cost of materials and construction. They build bridges that they know will collapse should a catastrophic earthquake happen.
Actually, Mr. Gale captured the complexity you're talking about very well.  These are the exact kind of tradeoffs the climate crowd which has rallied around Greta won't consider.  If the United States and Europe went zero emissions tomorrow, the output of China and India would, according to their models, still cause the warming catastrophe.  So even if we met their "demands" it would only be the West which suffered.

So for example, the kind of "zero emission" vehicle they might approve of isn't technologically possible at a price point affordable to existing car owners.  Sure, one is conceivable but at an astronomical price.  THAT'S what the science says, including economics.  Banning the internal combustion engine in favor of this mythical beast is effectively banning private transport.  And as I already explained, it STILL would not prevent the outcome they fear.


However, there are things we can do, that are cost efficient, that can reduce our carbon footprint. Whether or not it slows climate change remains to be seen. People could make greater use of mass transit rather than thousands of individuals driving their own cars. (Neither of our sons own cars.) People could switch to low cost (and low energy use) LED lights throughout their houses. That can reduce the emissions of power plants.

There's no need for a "however" in your reply.  You should go back and read what I actually wrote.  I was not discounting cost efficient responses.  Conservation is always a good thing, as long as it really conserves resources in the net aggregate.   I was addressing the alarmist position, by pointing out that our emissions could be ZERO and the crisis they fear would still happen.  Which means WE (in the United States) are not the primary cause of it, so that even taking the most drastic action imaginable (albeit unrealistic) would not achieve their goal.  So why do they insist that we do more than "cost efficient" responses?

I mean, do you see Greta's body language here?

Daily Mail:  Greta Thunberg cannot hide how unimpressed she is as she meets European Parliament President after declaring new climate law a 'surrender' and 'giving up' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8073933/Greta-Thunberg-looks-unimpressed-EUs-climate-law.html)

If you don't give the climate activists everything they want, even though it won't do what they claim, they will criticize you.  That's not science, it's propaganda and a lust for power.  Maybe we shouldn't be taking important policy cues from a child.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 09, 2020, 12:05:15 PM
Michigan has so far been spared a Covid-19 outbreak so we are not yet taking serious precautions. But here is a thought, what about moistening the napkin used to wipe the common cup between tables with vodka as a disinfectant. Not only would the alcohol in the vodka provide some germ killing properties, but a damp cloth would do a more efficient job of wiping the cup.

That is what we did yesterday at Our Saviour, the Bronx.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 09, 2020, 12:21:38 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 09, 2020, 12:35:10 PM
So the President’s concern is not to “harm those industries”?
When his - repeat his - health officials advise what to do to protect people?
This bothers me. Probably not you.

Those industries employ a lot of people. Your distinction is not nearly as stark as you imagine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 09, 2020, 12:38:10 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

Which has absolutely NO bearing on what prompted my question. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 09, 2020, 01:04:21 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.
Correct .... and at the Lord's time, the fruit of the vine could be nothing but wine at the passover time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 09, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
Steven writes:
Those industries (that is, the cruise lines CA) employ a lot of people. Your distinction is not nearly as stark as you imagine.

I comment:
What isn't "stark"?
Telling people to get on the boats, when it is known they cannot be well-protected there?
Or letting them get on the boats and risk getting sick so that the cruise line industry (and its workers) continue to get paid?
Have you ever been on a cruise? I've been on five or six and even in good times, the possibility of sanitary disasters, sickness and transmission of all kinds of disease-producing bugs is huge. Beloved Spouse has sworn off cruises forever, although I could still (sort of) like them.
What happens to cruise line employees is a totally different issue.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 09, 2020, 01:27:43 PM
From today’s New York Times (emphasis added):
The State Department on Sunday advised Americans against traveling on cruise ships, warning that they presented a higher risk of coronavirus infection and made U.S. citizens vulnerable to possible international travel restrictions, including quarantines.
The decision came after President Trump resisted requests from administration officials to publicly urge older travelers to avoid cruise ships and plane travel, saying he thought it would harm those industries, according to two people familiar with the discussions.
“U.S. citizens, particularly travelers with underlying health conditions, should not travel by cruise ship,” the State Department wrote in an alert posted to its website Sunday.
Americans should not rely on being evacuated if other countries subject them to quarantine, the department said.
The guidance signaled another escalation in the Trump administration’s efforts to ward off the fast-growing spread of the virus, and another instance of what appeared to be separation between health officials and the president, who has repeatedly registered skepticism over making statements he believes are alarmist.

I comment:
So the President’s concern is not to “harm those industries”?
When his - repeat his - health officials advise what to do to protect people?
This bothers me. Probably not you.


I don't think that President Trump has done very well in his public statements.  But then, I've thought that about his public statements about most things.  That aside, you've done us all a service by giving us a prototypical example of how the NYT covers the current president.  Despite the absence of clear evidence either way, the reporter decides to share the completely subjective conclusion that there "appeared to be" a separation between the president and "health officials."  That subjective observation is bizarre.  In the context of providing information in a manner that offers neither unwarranted complacency or unwarranted panic, any president would have to decide what to say personally and what to say through subordinates.  (And indeed, in this case, this president probably would be well served by having most information delivered by qualified subordinates.)  In this case, the president, through his subordinates, made the statement about cruises loud and clear.


In general, it strikes me that dealing effectively with this disease is what matters most, not the pettiness displayed by the NYT regarding how the president gets information to the public.  We won't really know how the administration responded to the disease until the situation plays out.  There is some reason for encouragement, however.  California Governor Gavin Newsom, no friend to President Trump, says that "his office has remained in close contact with the Trump Administration and their coronavirus task force led by Vice President Mike Pence. The governor had a private conversation with the White House on Saturday and said that the administration has followed through with their promises on a partnership to deal with the virus while President Trump said 'everything we could have hoped for' during their phone call.  'I am not here to make arguments,' he said. 'Everything we have asked for we have received. We are very grateful for this partnership.'”  Link (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/california-gov-newsom-updates-coronavirus-213431722.html)  This gives us all at least some cause for optimism.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 09, 2020, 01:32:18 PM
One of the most boneheaded criticisms of any leader that a person with zero comprehension of leadership often makes is that the leader disregarded the advice of his experts in some specific decision. Experts, by definition, are not generalists; they're hired for their expertise, and their expertise is in only one or two of the factors that go any decision. The leader, then, takes their expertise into account, along with the input of experts in other fields focused on other facets of the decision, so he weigh it all and decide things based on all the factors.

If you're a CEO, you listen to Marketing, R & D, Legal, and Accounting before making a decision on which versions of which products to launch, and on what scale. The odds are slim that all those experts-- and they are genuine experts, paid by you for their expertise-- agree with each other on what to recommend. Most of the time, your decision goes against the advice of at least one set of the experts. If you're a general deciding whether to launch a strike, you have expert military personnel in both ears telling you to do it and telling you not to do it. Leaders are always valuing the input of and then deliberately disregarding the advice of experts, in the best sense of the word deliberately.

Truman could drop the bomb or not. Either way he was ignoring the very top experts in some field.

     
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 09, 2020, 01:33:23 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

Which has absolutely NO bearing on what prompted my question.


What then do the words "This CUP is the new covenant in my blood" refer to? We don't say, "These cups". If the contents of the cup are not important, then the presider could use an empty chalice. But if there's no chalice, there is no cup that is being blessed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 01:36:02 PM
With an NYC Department of Education Day Care Center, we receive multiple communications on coronavirus daily from various city departments.  As this becomes more real here, what is happening on the ground is that it's becoming extremely difficult to get bleach, other deep cleaning agents, sanitizer, wipe cloths, paper towels and toilet paper.  Costco was basically sold out this morning by the time we got there.  My advice to those in other precincts not yet in the middle of this is to stock up now.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 09, 2020, 01:41:01 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.
Correct .... and at the Lord's time, the fruit of the vine could be nothing but wine at the passover time.


I agree, but Jesus didn't say, "This wine" (or "this fruit of the vine") "is the blood of the new covenant." Jesus' own words point to the (one) loaf and the cup as the elements of the sacrament. We changed it to bread (or anything made with flour and water = paste?) and wine (or grape juice).


Since recognizing this fact in the all four biblical words of institution, I have used a loaf of bread (usually made by my wife) and a pouring chalice. (I wasn't ready to tackle the hygienic issue of a common cup - although I also have one of those.) We eat from one loaf and drink from one cup. I think that's what Jesus intended when he instituted the supper. Not only his body and blood brings communion with himself; but the symbol of eating from one loaf and drinking from one cup brings communion with each other.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 09, 2020, 01:42:04 PM
With an NYC Department of Education Day Care Center, we receive multiple communications on coronavirus daily from various city departments.  As this becomes more real here, what is happening on the ground is that it's becoming extremely difficult to get bleach, other deep cleaning agents, sanitizer, wipe cloths, paper towels and toilet paper.  Costco was basically sold out this morning by the time we got there.  My advice to those in other precincts not yet in the middle of this is to stock up now.

Dave Benke


I'm still perplexed by the run on toilet paper.  I understand the demand for cleaning products and even for paper towels.  Health officials are telling us that its best to dry our hands after washing them with disposable towels.  But toilet paper?  I don't really get it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 09, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
One of the most boneheaded criticisms of any leader that a person with zero comprehension of leadership often makes is that the leader disregarded the advice of his experts in some specific decision. Experts, by definition, are not generalists; they're hired for their expertise, and their expertise is in only one or two of the factors that go any decision. The leader, then, takes their expertise into account, along with the input of experts in other fields focused on other facets of the decision, so he weigh it all and decide things based on all the factors.

If you're a CEO, you listen to Marketing, R & D, Legal, and Accounting before making a decision on which versions of which products to launch, and on what scale. The odds are slim that all those experts-- and they are genuine experts, paid by you for their expertise-- agree with each other on what to recommend. Most of the time, your decision goes against the advice of at least one set of the experts. If you're a general deciding whether to launch a strike, you have expert military personnel in both ears telling you to do it and telling you not to do it. Leaders are always valuing the input of and then deliberately disregarding the advice of experts, in the best sense of the word deliberately.

Truman could drop the bomb or not. Either way he was ignoring the very top experts in some field.

   
Just to follow up, my son was born with heart defects needing surgery. One of the problems needed immediate attention and could be handled with heart surgery that didn't require the full opening the chest cavity. Another was less urgent and could wait a few years, but required full open heart surgery. Furthermore, the doctors didn't want to do any surgery on a infant until one year because the blood pressure changes can do brain damage. So the question was whether to do two surgeries, one now and one later, or do both at once and hold off as long as possible while treating with medication. All the various kinds of doctors involved made their case, and then the head of the huge committee made the call.

As it happened, we ended up trying to delay as long as possible, but in the end had to go with the two surgery route. I was stunned in the pre-op when the doctor about to do the one less invasive surgery but not the more major operation told me straight out he thought we were making a mistake. He thought we should be doing both surgeries that day, but had been voted down or otherwise decided against by other doctors. I assumed such disagreements would be kept behind closed doors. Either way, I was entrusting my son's heart to people who were going against the advice of the best medical experts. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 09, 2020, 01:45:57 PM

With an NYC Department of Education Day Care Center, we receive multiple communications on coronavirus daily from various city departments.  As this becomes more real here, what is happening on the ground is that it's becoming extremely difficult to get bleach, other deep cleaning agents, sanitizer, wipe cloths, paper towels and toilet paper.  Costco was basically sold out this morning by the time we got there.  My advice to those in other precincts not yet in the middle of this is to stock up now.

Dave Benke
That's the problem with recommending people run on anything and stock up. It is self-fulfilling good advice. There might be no need whatsoever for you to go out and buy toilet paper. But if all your neighbors think they need to, they'll do so, and then you'll wish you had, too, and will be forced to admit should have listened. You should have bought toilet paper not because it would help you any way beyond the obvious, but because you have panicky neighbors.

Actually, I think because it is something you'll need in the case extended quarantine is imposed.


Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 02:08:36 PM
With an NYC Department of Education Day Care Center, we receive multiple communications on coronavirus daily from various city departments.  As this becomes more real here, what is happening on the ground is that it's becoming extremely difficult to get bleach, other deep cleaning agents, sanitizer, wipe cloths, paper towels and toilet paper.  Costco was basically sold out this morning by the time we got there.  My advice to those in other precincts not yet in the middle of this is to stock up now.

Dave Benke


I'm still perplexed by the run on toilet paper.  I understand the demand for cleaning products and even for paper towels.  Health officials are telling us that its best to dry our hands after washing them with disposable towels.  But toilet paper?  I don't really get it.

Anxiety.  When you gotta go, you gotta go?  Driven by anxiety. 

In December 1999 one of my elderly members who owned a home filled the entire basement with bottled water and toilet paper, because Y2K would end her ability to get those two things.  On January 1, she recognized that she had purchased her lifetime supply of those two items. 

There should be books written on panic purchasing.  One of my favorites in NYC is salt and snow shovels.  Today, as our changing climate allows us a day when we'll be over 70 degrees in early March, the salt and snow shovel marketers are sunbathing on a beach of debt.  There were no panics on which to capitalize, because it ain't snowing any more in the Big Apple. (of course, that jinx means we'll have 3 feet in April).

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 09, 2020, 02:30:54 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

Which has absolutely NO bearing on what prompted my question.


What then do the words "This CUP is the new covenant in my blood" refer to? We don't say, "These cups". If the contents of the cup are not important, then the presider could use an empty chalice. But if there's no chalice, there is no cup that is being blessed.

I asked why the pastor chose to use the common cup just for himself and then "put it out of service" before communing others with the individual cups.  I did not question the legitimacy of using individual cups.  So, your wooden reading of the passage(s) is irrelevant.  Now, if YOU want to question the legitimacy of the congregation's practice for using individual cups, then have at it.  But I am not doing that. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 09, 2020, 02:47:21 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

I agree.  Good response
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 09, 2020, 03:25:36 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.


My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

I agree.  Good response

"One loaf" is used in possibly less than five percent of all Protestant congregations, wouldn't you say, many to most of whom are having a memorial meal.  So that goes by the board in terms of unity, even though it's the image used by Luther fifteen hundred years later.

I'm not a fan of individual cups, but here we are.

In terms of unity, however, we speak about the entire service of the Sacrament as the common union of those in the sanctuary, including the unity of confession in both the Nicene Creed and the Lord's Prayer, and extending to the Eucharist itself and the sharing of the Peace of the Lord.  In that last regard, almost to a person those who have recently been attending came up to me after church Sunday expressing their strong support for the service of Sacrament as a tremendous sign of love and unity at our church, and how it hurt not to hold hands for the singing of the Lord's Prayer and greet one another in demonstrable ways during the sharing of the Lord's peace.  These actions accompany the unity given by Christ in the sacrament; when non-catechized folks are invited to receive a blessing rather than the Meal during distribution, it is kind of a foreshadowing of the full blessing of Christ to be received in the Meal later (same for children, who are blessed prior to first communion). 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 09, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
Mr. Gale:
I don't think that President Trump has done very well in his public statements.  But then, I've thought that about his public statements about most things.  That aside, you've done us all a service by giving us a prototypical example of how the NYT covers the current president.  Despite the absence of clear evidence either way, the reporter decides to share the completely subjective conclusion that there "appeared to be" a separation between the president and "health officials."  That subjective observation is bizarre.
me:
No, it’s not subjective nor is it bizarre. I did not post the entire story. The rest of the story, and in other places it is clear that the president’s advisers were saying things other than what he was saying to the public. Now, it seems that doesn’t bother anybody, so I guess it’s no big deal.
I just commented that it seem to  Me his first and primary concern was for the industry rather than for the people who might get sick.

Mr. Gale:
 In the context of providing information in a manner that offers neither unwarranted complacency or unwarranted panic, any president would have to decide what to say personally and what to say through subordinates.  (And indeed, in this case, this president probably would be well served by having most information delivered by qualified subordinates.) 
Me:
This president does not choose to be well served by having information delivered by qualified subordinates. He would rather tell people about his “hunches,” and information that he thinks he has a “natural ability“ to discern and provide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 09, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
With an NYC Department of Education Day Care Center, we receive multiple communications on coronavirus daily from various city departments.  As this becomes more real here, what is happening on the ground is that it's becoming extremely difficult to get bleach, other deep cleaning agents, sanitizer, wipe cloths, paper towels and toilet paper.  Costco was basically sold out this morning by the time we got there.  My advice to those in other precincts not yet in the middle of this is to stock up now.

Dave Benke


I'm still perplexed by the run on toilet paper.  I understand the demand for cleaning products and even for paper towels.  Health officials are telling us that its best to dry our hands after washing them with disposable towels.  But toilet paper?  I don't really get it.

Anxiety.  When you gotta go, you gotta go?  Driven by anxiety. 

In December 1999 one of my elderly members who owned a home filled the entire basement with bottled water and toilet paper, because Y2K would end her ability to get those two things.  On January 1, she recognized that she had purchased her lifetime supply of those two items. 

There should be books written on panic purchasing.  One of my favorites in NYC is salt and snow shovels.  Today, as our changing climate allows us a day when we'll be over 70 degrees in early March, the salt and snow shovel marketers are sunbathing on a beach of debt.  There were no panics on which to capitalize, because it ain't snowing any more in the Big Apple. (of course, that jinx means we'll have 3 feet in April).

Dave Benke


Just by happenstance, I am well supplied with both toilet paper and paper towels.  Maybe I can recoup some of my stock-market losses by selling paper products on eBay!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 09, 2020, 03:46:12 PM
Mr. Gale:
I don't think that President Trump has done very well in his public statements.  But then, I've thought that about his public statements about most things.  That aside, you've done us all a service by giving us a prototypical example of how the NYT covers the current president.  Despite the absence of clear evidence either way, the reporter decides to share the completely subjective conclusion that there "appeared to be" a separation between the president and "health officials."  That subjective observation is bizarre.
me:
No, it’s not subjective nor is it bizarre. I did not post the entire story. The rest of the story, and in other places it is clear that the president’s advisers were saying things other than what he was saying to the public. Now, it seems that doesn’t bother anybody, so I guess it’s no big deal.
I just commented that it seem to  Me his first and primary concern was for the industry rather than for the people who might get sick.

Mr. Gale:
 In the context of providing information in a manner that offers neither unwarranted complacency or unwarranted panic, any president would have to decide what to say personally and what to say through subordinates.  (And indeed, in this case, this president probably would be well served by having most information delivered by qualified subordinates.) 
Me:
This president does not choose to be well served by having information delivered by qualified subordinates. He would rather tell people about his “hunches,” and information that he thinks he has a “natural ability“ to discern and provide.


Once again, you take a comment out of context and project onto it the least charitable interpretation.  President Trump certainly lacks eloquence.  He lacks charm and modesty.  His concern for specificity and accuracy is often limited.  However, his "hunch" was not based on any sense of his own "natural ability" to discern facts about diseases.  He expressly said as part of the same remark that his "hunch" was "based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people who do this" -- i.e, CDC and NIH officials.  But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your unshakeable prejudices.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 09, 2020, 04:07:54 PM
Mr. Gale:
I don't think that President Trump has done very well in his public statements.  But then, I've thought that about his public statements about most things.  That aside, you've done us all a service by giving us a prototypical example of how the NYT covers the current president.  Despite the absence of clear evidence either way, the reporter decides to share the completely subjective conclusion that there "appeared to be" a separation between the president and "health officials."  That subjective observation is bizarre.
me:
No, it’s not subjective nor is it bizarre. I did not post the entire story. The rest of the story, and in other places it is clear that the president’s advisers were saying things other than what he was saying to the public. Now, it seems that doesn’t bother anybody, so I guess it’s no big deal.
I just commented that it seem to  Me his first and primary concern was for the industry rather than for the people who might get sick.

Mr. Gale:
 In the context of providing information in a manner that offers neither unwarranted complacency or unwarranted panic, any president would have to decide what to say personally and what to say through subordinates.  (And indeed, in this case, this president probably would be well served by having most information delivered by qualified subordinates.) 
Me:
This president does not choose to be well served by having information delivered by qualified subordinates. He would rather tell people about his “hunches,” and information that he thinks he has a “natural ability“ to discern and provide.


Once again, you take a comment out of context and project onto it the least charitable interpretation.  President Trump certainly lacks eloquence.  He lacks charm and modesty.  His concern for specificity and accuracy is often limited.  However, his "hunch" was not based on any sense of his own "natural ability" to discern facts about diseases.  He expressly said as part of the same remark that his "hunch" was "based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people who do this" -- i.e, CDC and NIH officials.  But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your unshakeable prejudices.


Why do you believe that "a lot of people who do this" are the CEC and NIH officials? Trump didn't say that. It would seem that you are also distorting the facts. Trump's words:


"I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number — and this is just my hunch — but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this, because a lot of people will have this and it's very mild, they'll get better very rapidly. They don't even see a doctor. They don't even call a doctor. You never hear about those people."


If he wanted to give some credibility to "a lot of people," he should have said who they were, where they're from, what makes them experts worth listening to, etc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 09, 2020, 04:35:15 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.
My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

I agree.  Good response
His response (He never says 'wine') leaves open the Baptist use of grape juice. Do you agree with grape juice in the Sacrament??


It would seem that the significance of 'one cup' is lost when the 'one cup' is used by one sacrament recipient only ... the use of the chalice ended up being an individual chalice for one person ... so the 'I agreed. Good response' is an agreement that the individual chalice practice for one communicant is an acceptable practice and apparently Biblical?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Robert Johnson on March 09, 2020, 04:52:39 PM
Michigan has so far been spared a Covid-19 outbreak so we are not yet taking serious precautions. But here is a thought, what about moistening the napkin used to wipe the common cup between tables with vodka as a disinfectant. Not only would the alcohol in the vodka provide some germ killing properties, but a damp cloth would do a more efficient job of wiping the cup.

Tito's Vodka issued a PSA that 80 proof vodka is not a disinfectant.  You would need about 180 proof (90%) and that puts you in Everclear territory.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Robert Johnson on March 09, 2020, 04:55:22 PM
I asked why the pastor chose to use the common cup just for himself and then "put it out of service" before communing others with the individual cups.

How many more times do you plan on posting the same words?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 09, 2020, 05:10:35 PM
I asked why the pastor chose to use the common cup just for himself and then "put it out of service" before communing others with the individual cups.

How many more times do you plan on posting the same words?

I was done with this topic.  See Post #155 at 9:52 AM today.  My posts since have been to disengage myself from Rev. Stoffregen's apparent insistence that only the common cup must be used.
Title: ELCA Worship Resources: Worship in Times of Public Health Concerns
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 09, 2020, 06:15:14 PM
Meanwhile, in actual 'Coronavirus news" as it might affect ELCA congregations, the Worship team in the Office of the Presiding Bishop has updated Worship Resources: Worship in Times of Public Health Concerns (https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Worship_in_Times_of_Public_Health_Concerns.pdf?_ga=2.49647279.804131654.1583427426-2025289056.1557504087)

I offer the link, as the copyright notice seems to preclude reproducing the full document outside of a congregational context.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 09, 2020, 09:56:20 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.
My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

I agree.  Good response
His response (He never says 'wine') leaves open the Baptist use of grape juice. Do you agree with grape juice in the Sacrament??


It would seem that the significance of 'one cup' is lost when the 'one cup' is used by one sacrament recipient only ... the use of the chalice ended up being an individual chalice for one person ... so the 'I agreed. Good response' is an agreement that the individual chalice practice for one communicant is an acceptable practice and apparently Biblical?

I'm actually responding to the exegetical comment about the one loaf of bread and the cup wine/grape juice which Paul seems to apply at 1 Cor. 11 and then 12.  The one bread and one cup give credence and visibility to the fact that Christ is head of His Body, the ecclesia.  Of course this is not in immediate relation to the words that Christ told Paul that "...this is my Body given for you..."  There the bread is what Jesus says it is and Jesus (God) does not lie about what He calls it, ie His Body.  It also corresponds to Luther's teaching in the Small Catechism when he teaches that the sacrament of Holy Communion is "It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself."

But these two issues are distinct:  one the former being an exegetical and interpretive act and the second latter being the actual words of Jesus as they are without any interpretation because these words are Jesus' and he literally means what he says in 1 Corinthians 11:24-25.

I don't believe Pr. Stoffregen or Pr. Benke would disagree here either.  The issue at least for me isn't to play off the drinking from the one cup and then administering in individual glasses.  That seems a stretch to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 09, 2020, 10:02:17 PM
Michigan has so far been spared a Covid-19 outbreak so we are not yet taking serious precautions. But here is a thought, what about moistening the napkin used to wipe the common cup between tables with vodka as a disinfectant. Not only would the alcohol in the vodka provide some germ killing properties, but a damp cloth would do a more efficient job of wiping the cup.

Tito's Vodka issued a PSA that 80 proof vodka is not a disinfectant.  You would need about 180 proof (90%) and that puts you in Everclear territory.

Tito's Vodka is out of our neighbor Austin, TX.  I bet with this their sales are going through the roof.   ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 09, 2020, 10:07:14 PM
OK.  But why not just remove the chalice before-hand since the determination had already been made to use only individual cups?  Certainly the lifting of the chalice -- empty or full -- is not essential to the consecration (or what will they do next week)?  In any case, not a big deal.  It just caught my curiosity.
My answer is: Jesus’ words of institution uses the word “cup”. (He never says, “wine”.) The biblical symbols that Paul emphasizes is eating from ONE loaf and drinking from the cup. Many wafers and many cups counter the symbolism of unity that comes from the many receiving from one loaf and one cup.

I agree.  Good response
His response (He never says 'wine') leaves open the Baptist use of grape juice. Do you agree with grape juice in the Sacrament??


It would seem that the significance of 'one cup' is lost when the 'one cup' is used by one sacrament recipient only ... the use of the chalice ended up being an individual chalice for one person ... so the 'I agreed. Good response' is an agreement that the individual chalice practice for one communicant is an acceptable practice and apparently Biblical?

Why wouldn't grape juice be fine?  (Hint:  I do prefer the use of wine, however)

See Pr. Stoffregen's mention that he uses a pouring chalice.  Seems to take care of the issue of the one cup and administration into individual cups.  I've seen this done and I approve.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 09, 2020, 11:35:55 PM
Here is an excellent pastoral letter from Anglican Church in North America Archbishop Foley Beach:


Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

The global spread of COVID-19, the coronavirus, has become a focus of attention and concern for many of us. Many bishops, diocesan leaders, and experts in the field of medicine have consulted with the Province since this disease was first reported.

Drawing on their deep wisdom, I offer these points, which speak to both the physical and spiritual concerns that naturally occur at a time like this:

1. Trust God.

In the midst of uncertainty, we trust God. He is sovereign over human history and over our lives. He is the Lord, "our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble" (Psalm 46:1). And he is loving and merciful. Psalm 100:5 assures us, "For the LORD is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations."

We witness to our Christian faith when we resist panic, knowing that our times are in the Lord's hand (Psalm 31:15). No one can snatch us out of the Father's hand (John 10:28-29). And so, "for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

The Book of Common Prayer offers on page 269 a list of suggested Psalms on many helpful themes, including God's sovereignty, providence and mercy, trust in God, and living faithfully in times of trouble. If reading from the Psalms is not a part of your daily prayers, try turning to one of these psalms each day to keep your heart focused on the Lord and his presence and care.

2. Be informed.

There is much on the internet from unhelpful extreme perspectives that encourage either panic or complacency. Neither is appropriate. Pay attention to health advisories from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and your state and local governments.

The CDC website provides a wealth of information about the disease and appropriate steps for individuals, churches, schools, and businesses to take.

You may wish to subscribe to the CDC's COVID-19 newsletter to get regular updates. Go to their newsletter subscription page and choose the newsletter entitled, "Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)."

Avail yourself of your own state's Department of Health website for the most up-to-date information, treatment, and infection control measures for your particular region of the country.

3. Be prudent.

Wash your hands! Wash them frequently and thoroughly, for a minimum of 20 seconds using soap and warm water. There is no substitute for this. While alcohol-based hand sanitizers can kill bacteria, they have not been shown to be adequate against COVID-19 or other viruses. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently warned Purell's manufacturer to cease advertising it as an effective agent against viruses. Avoid touching your eyes, nose, and mouth with unwashed hands.

For cleaning surfaces, such as doorknobs, countertops, etc., the CDC and our experts recommend using bleach (1 part bleach to 100 parts water).

If you have symptoms of a cough, disease, or a fever within the last 24 hours, please stay at home. Infectious disease specialists in the Anglican Church in North America have emphasized how vitally important this is, though COVID-19 can also be spread by people who have not developed symptoms of illness.

If you are returning from known areas of higher prevalence of COVID-19, we encourage you not to attend church for two weeks. The list of affected areas and the period of self-quarantine will likely change in the weeks ahead.

Prudence and care, especially for those who are susceptible to this and other viral illness, will require extraordinary leadership in the weeks to come. The diocesan bishops of the Anglican Church in North America will be developing plans and guidance to be used in their own dioceses. You may be receiving guidance from your bishop about any temporary changes that may be warranted in your church's worship during this crisis. These are godly men that work carefully with the clergy and experts under their care to find the most appropriate course of action for the parishes under their watch. Knowing that sometimes difficult decisions may have to be made, I ask you to pray daily for the men and women involved in these diocesan processes and to carefully listen and follow their direction.

4. Act in love.


Reach out to your neighbors, particularly the elderly and those who are vulnerable or alone.

Let us pray:

Almighty God, our strong tower of defense in time of trouble: We offer you praise and heartfelt thanks for our deliverance from the dangers which lately surrounded us and for your gracious gift of peace. We confess that your goodness alone has preserved us; and we ask you still to continue your mercies toward us, that we may always know and acknowledge you as our Savior and mighty Deliverer; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 09, 2020, 11:59:23 PM
Why wouldn't grape juice be fine?  (Hint:  I do prefer the use of wine, however)
In the time of our Lord, it was biologically impossible at passover time for the 'fruit of the vine' not to be fermented into wine. 


Using grape juice is not following the Lord's institution of the Sacrament ... ergo no sacrament when unfermented pasteurized grape juice is used.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 04:03:15 AM
Wine is “Standard.” Wine is normal. But the sacrament and the Spirit cannot be bound by earthly elements.  There are occasions when unfermented grape juice can be used. I have been at masses with and for alcoholic Roman Catholic priests and laypeople where mustum, a “wine” with virtually no alcohol is used. Many Lutheran parishes offer grape juice as an alternative to wine.
The sacrament exists through the Word, not chemistry.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 10, 2020, 08:34:42 AM
I once had the view that only wine met the standard for the Sacrament.  At the same time, the wine at the Last Supper was most likely diluted with water and I don't remember being in a Lutheran church where the wine was diluted. As long as we use the fruit of the vine, irrespective of how it presents, I believe the means are there combined with the Word to make the Sacrament true and valid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 10, 2020, 09:42:47 AM
The Diocese of Brooklyn through its Vicar General has issued a statement that the Eucharist will only be offered in one kind, and distributed to the hand of the recipient. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 10, 2020, 10:42:53 AM
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 10, 2020, 11:11:33 AM
As you all may have seen, the rector of a DC Episcopal church is now hospitalized with COVID-19.  The Rev. Timothy Cole distributed communion at one service during which he was infected.  It's not yet clear, so far as I know, whether anyone caught the disease from Fr. Cole.  Here's a link to one story. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/09/us/dc-church-rector-coronavirus/index.html)


Here's a link to a page on the virus from the church's web site.  It includes a letter to the parish from Fr. Cole.  He apparently is doing well and expects a full recovery.  Christ Church Georgetown Web Page (https://www.christchurchgeorgetown.org/church-closure-and-coronavirus)  The parish has canceled all worship and other gatherings for the time being.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 11:30:16 AM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 10, 2020, 11:46:28 AM
Why wouldn't grape juice be fine?  (Hint:  I do prefer the use of wine, however)
In the time of our Lord, it was biologically impossible at passover time for the 'fruit of the vine' not to be fermented into wine. 


Using grape juice is not following the Lord's institution of the Sacrament ... ergo no sacrament when unfermented pasteurized grape juice is used.

I would not take the hard position that there is no sacrament, but I would say it introduces doubt, and anything that introduces doubt is to be avoided if at all possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 11:53:06 AM
David Garner writes:
I would not take the hard position that there is no sacrament, but I would say it introduces doubt, and anything that introduces doubt is to be avoided if at all possible.
I comment:
Having dealt for years with Baptists, other Protestants, as well as Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopalian people in recovery, I say that the practice definitely does not "introduce doubt." For them or for others who might worship with them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 10, 2020, 11:56:37 AM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

From the LCMS's Commission on Theology and Church Relations' "Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper" (1983):

"....All four accounts of the Lord's Supper speak of 'the cup.' The con­tent of this cup was most definitely wine. The references in Matt. 26:29 and parallels to the 'fruit of the vine' would not have suggested anything else to Jesus' listeners than the grape wine of the Jewish Passover ritual. In 1 Cor. 11:21 there is corroboration that the early Christian church understood wine for 'fruit of the vine.' Some of the Corinthians, sadly, had abused the Holy Supper by becoming drunk.
The color, type, or origin of the grape wine is a matter which Chris­tians can select in accord with their situation.
In the oft-cited pastoral circumstance of an alcoholic communicant, the counsel of foregoing Communion for a period of time or the action of diluting the wine with water (perhaps done at the Lord's Supper itself) are preferable. In the extreme situation where even greatly diluted wine may lead to severe temptation, no fully satisfactory answer, in the opinion of the CTCR, can· be formulated. The counsel of completely foregoing Communion is clearly unsatisfactory. In this situation, too, the actions of diluting the wine with water or intinction would be preferable. The substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded. Luther's openness to Communion in one kind is difficult in view of confessional texts which strongly urge the Biblical paradigm of both kinds, though the Confessions do not address the extreme situation.
A similar pastoral problem is posed by those rare instances where a severe physical reaction is caused by the elements (as, for example, when the recipient is concurrently taking certain medications, or is sim­ply allergic to one or the other of the elements). The pastor, in such cases, will surely stress the Gospel's power and total effectiveness in the individual's life and patiently seek a practical solution that both honors Christ's word and satisfies the desire to partake in the Lord's Supper...."

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 10, 2020, 12:08:06 PM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

From the LCMS's Commission on Theology and Church Relations' "Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper" (1983):

"....All four accounts of the Lord's Supper speak of 'the cup.' The con­tent of this cup was most definitely wine. The references in Matt. 26:29 and parallels to the 'fruit of the vine' would not have suggested anything else to Jesus' listeners than the grape wine of the Jewish Passover ritual. In 1 Cor. 11:21 there is corroboration that the early Christian church understood wine for 'fruit of the vine.' Some of the Corinthians, sadly, had abused the Holy Supper by becoming drunk.
The color, type, or origin of the grape wine is a matter which Chris­tians can select in accord with their situation.
In the oft-cited pastoral circumstance of an alcoholic communicant, the counsel of foregoing Communion for a period of time or the action of diluting the wine with water (perhaps done at the Lord's Supper itself) are preferable. In the extreme situation where even greatly diluted wine may lead to severe temptation, no fully satisfactory answer, in the opinion of the CTCR, can· be formulated. The counsel of completely foregoing Communion is clearly unsatisfactory. In this situation, too, the actions of diluting the wine with water or intinction would be preferable. The substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded. Luther's openness to Communion in one kind is difficult in view of confessional texts which strongly urge the Biblical paradigm of both kinds, though the Confessions do not address the extreme situation.
A similar pastoral problem is posed by those rare instances where a severe physical reaction is caused by the elements (as, for example, when the recipient is concurrently taking certain medications, or is sim­ply allergic to one or the other of the elements). The pastor, in such cases, will surely stress the Gospel's power and total effectiveness in the individual's life and patiently seek a practical solution that both honors Christ's word and satisfies the desire to partake in the Lord's Supper...."


The ELCA's Social Statement on the Use of the Means of Grace Provides:


44 In accordance with the words of institution, this church uses bread and wine in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper. Communicants normally receive both elements, bread and wine, in the Holy Communion.

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 
Application
44c For pressing reasons of health, individuals may commune under one element. In certain circumstances, congregations might decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or non-alcoholic wine or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the people of each local assembly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 10, 2020, 12:28:32 PM
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

This makes sense to me.  I will maintain that these are reasons for the use of wine rather than grape juice. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 12:40:31 PM
And there are reasons, though they may be rare, for using grape juice.
Who here believes that makes the sacrament invalid or not “Real Presence”?
Re your 37-year old CTCR report: I wonder if that same report would be written today. I guess it probably would.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 10, 2020, 01:01:46 PM
And there are reasons, though they may be rare, for using grape juice.
Who here believes that makes the sacrament invalid or not “Real Presence”?
Re your 37-year old CTCR report: I wonder if that same report would be written today. I guess it probably would.


The LCMS statement does not quite foreclose non-alcoholic wine (i.e., grape juice).  Instead, it recognizes that in some cases that there is "no fully satisfactory answer."  It urges pastors and congregants to "patiently seek a practical solution that both honors Christ's word and satisfies the desire to partake in the Lord's Supper."


The ELCA statement is a bit more permissive, but is generally consistent with its LCMS counterpart.  It recognizes that in people can commune "under one element."  In "certain circumstances," a pastor "might decide" to include a "small amount" of "non-alcoholic wine or grape juice" on the altar.  However, the statement cautions that this decision is "delicate" and that it must "honor . . . the tradition of the church."



Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 10, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
It has been my understanding that the LCMS (CTCR) opinion (reluctantly) allowed communion under one kind. I do know that at a synodical convention Sam Nafzgar (then CTCR Director) stated that to the convention. That would have been 1998 or 2001. I cannot look it up as I no longer have my collection of CTCR opinions.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 10, 2020, 01:43:48 PM
The ELCA's Social Statement on the Use of the Means of Grace Provides:


44 In accordance with the words of institution, this church uses bread and wine in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper. Communicants normally receive both elements, bread and wine, in the Holy Communion.

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 
Application
44c For pressing reasons of health, individuals may commune under one element. In certain circumstances, congregations might decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or non-alcoholic wine or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the people of each local assembly.


This is a bit of a departure from the 1978 Statement adopted by the ALC and LCA and later by the ELCA in 1989.

Lutherans have been concerned to follow the biblical example established in the institution of the Lord's Supper and thus to use the elements of bread and wine.

and

The use of only one element is acceptable where there are special difficul­ties.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 10, 2020, 02:52:57 PM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

From the LCMS's Commission on Theology and Church Relations' "Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper" (1983):

"....All four accounts of the Lord's Supper speak of 'the cup.' The con­tent of this cup was most definitely wine. The references in Matt. 26:29 and parallels to the 'fruit of the vine' would not have suggested anything else to Jesus' listeners than the grape wine of the Jewish Passover ritual. In 1 Cor. 11:21 there is corroboration that the early Christian church understood wine for 'fruit of the vine.' Some of the Corinthians, sadly, had abused the Holy Supper by becoming drunk.
The color, type, or origin of the grape wine is a matter which Chris­tians can select in accord with their situation.
In the oft-cited pastoral circumstance of an alcoholic communicant, the counsel of foregoing Communion for a period of time or the action of diluting the wine with water (perhaps done at the Lord's Supper itself) are preferable. In the extreme situation where even greatly diluted wine may lead to severe temptation, no fully satisfactory answer, in the opinion of the CTCR, can· be formulated. The counsel of completely foregoing Communion is clearly unsatisfactory. In this situation, too, the actions of diluting the wine with water or intinction would be preferable. The substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded. Luther's openness to Communion in one kind is difficult in view of confessional texts which strongly urge the Biblical paradigm of both kinds, though the Confessions do not address the extreme situation.
A similar pastoral problem is posed by those rare instances where a severe physical reaction is caused by the elements (as, for example, when the recipient is concurrently taking certain medications, or is sim­ply allergic to one or the other of the elements). The pastor, in such cases, will surely stress the Gospel's power and total effectiveness in the individual's life and patiently seek a practical solution that both honors Christ's word and satisfies the desire to partake in the Lord's Supper...."

The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 10, 2020, 04:01:15 PM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
That isn't the issue. Anything CAN be the true blood of Christ if He says so. The question is, does He say so? With consecrated wine, the answer is yes. With consecrated something else, the answer is who knows, maybe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 10, 2020, 04:35:30 PM
Pastor Preus writes:
When the Bible uses the term "fruit of the vine" in connection with the Lord's Supper it refers to wine.  It refers to real wine.  This is why we use wine.  If this were the church's supper, then the church would be free to change the elements, but since it is the Lord's Supper, we use what he used: bread and wine.  For those who are afraid of the alcohol in the wine we may water it down for them.  When we Lutherans confess what the Lord's Supper is we say that it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine.

I comment:
Alcoholics in recovery, Pastor Preus, are not "afraid" of the alcohol in the wine, but know that there is a chance it will flip that switch in their brain that takes them back to potentially fatal drinking. "Watering it down" is not going to help. An alcoholic in recovery would laugh at that suggestion.
Yes, receiving in one kind is still receiving, but that marks a certain separation from the rest of the community (which is also the body of our Lord), and often doesn't seem pastoral and "right."
Do you contend that when grape juice is used or received it cannot be the "true … blood of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
That isn't the issue. Anything CAN be the true blood of Christ if He says so. The question is, does He say so? With consecrated wine, the answer is yes. With consecrated something else, the answer is who knows, maybe.


Some have argued that the real miracle is to believe that the wafer is really a loaf of bread. :)

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 04:37:08 PM
Pastor Preus:
I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.
Me:
So now the Sacrament depends upon what you believe it is?

Pastor Preus:
I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.
Me:
Not outwardly at least. But say that to most and to addiction professionals and see what happens.

Pastor Preus:
I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.
Me:
You have a lot to learn about the disease today. I urge you to go learn it.

Pastor Preus:
Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
Me:
I have worked with people in recovery for nearly 20 years, and still do so in retirement. People may decide that they have “nothing to fear,” (but I doubt that many will). I do seriously doubt they would “assure” others thusly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 10, 2020, 04:45:28 PM
Just got word that Valpo is recalling all international students from overseas. I think it shows poor leadership on their part. Boston University, through which Valpo students, including my daughter currently, can study abroad in France, has not recalled their students from France, but given them an option to stay or remain, so this is Valpo acting on its own. And as her father, who cares about her more than Valpo does, I am not assured that she will be any safer here than there. If anything, getting on an international flight puts her at more risk. Please spare me the explanation that they're looking out for my daughter. They aren't. This decision is a panicky legal CYA pure and simple. They should have made return optional.

 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 10, 2020, 05:11:42 PM
Pastor Preus:
I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.
Me:
So now the Sacrament depends upon what you believe it is?
That is not what he's saying. And neither does the Sacrament depend upon what you believe it is. Just because you believe that grape juice is a perfectly suitable substitute for wine doesn't make it so. If you're ministering to a sick person and you have a bottle of medicine. You think it might cure him but it could also make him worse. You're not sure. Do you go ahead and give it to him?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 10, 2020, 05:45:16 PM
Pastor Fienen:
Just because you believe that grape juice is a perfectly suitable substitute for wine doesn't make it so. If you're ministering to a sick person and you have a bottle of medicine. You think it might cure him but it could also make him worse. You're not sure. Do you go ahead and give it to him?
Me:
And we have crossed through the Looking Glass. Nowhere did I say it was a “perfectly suitable substitute.”
Tell me what harm occurs if you give people something that is not “really” the sacrament? Does the faith of the person not count? So if the celebrant screws up it means that God won’t forgive the sins of the poor communicant?
But no matter. Let it go.
I’m more concerned about the ignorance that Pastor Preus shows towards those with a potentially fatal disease. Sadly, he is not alone in his misunderstanding of alcoholism.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 10, 2020, 06:45:04 PM
Pastor Preus:
I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.
Me:
So now the Sacrament depends upon what you believe it is?

Pastor Preus:
I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.
Me:
Not outwardly at least. But say that to most and to addiction professionals and see what happens.

Pastor Preus:
I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.
Me:
You have a lot to learn about the disease today. I urge you to go learn it.

Pastor Preus:
Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
Me:
I have worked with people in recovery for nearly 20 years, and still do so in retirement. People may decide that they have “nothing to fear,” (but I doubt that many will). I do seriously doubt they would “assure” others thusly.

Rev. Austin, I suggest you consider the possibility that your experiences do not constitute the norm for others.  All pastors deal with alcoholism in various contexts among their parishioners.  I doubt that you know more about this than does the typical pastor.  I've served as a pastor for alcoholics for over forty years and I have never heard of a Christian alcoholic who was driven back to the bottle by receiving Christ's blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.  Have you?   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: DeHall1 on March 10, 2020, 06:55:13 PM
Pastor Preus:
I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.
Me:
So now the Sacrament depends upon what you believe it is?

Pastor Preus:
I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.
Me:
Not outwardly at least. But say that to most and to addiction professionals and see what happens.

Pastor Preus:
I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.
Me:
You have a lot to learn about the disease today. I urge you to go learn it.

Pastor Preus:
Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
Me:
I have worked with people in recovery for nearly 20 years, and still do so in retirement. People may decide that they have “nothing to fear,” (but I doubt that many will). I do seriously doubt they would “assure” others thusly.

Rev. Austin, I suggest you consider the possibility that your experiences do not constitute the norm for others.  All pastors deal with alcoholism in various contexts among their parishioners.  I doubt that you know more about this than does the typical pastor.  I've served as a pastor for alcoholics for over forty years and I have never heard of a Christian alcoholic who was driven back to the bottle by receiving Christ's blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.  Have you?   

God is not using the communion wine to draw alcoholics into a trap—God does not tempt us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 10, 2020, 07:05:19 PM
From the CTCR document put out by the LCMS in 1983:

In the oft-cited pastoral circumstance of an alcoholic communicant, the counsel of foregoing Communion for a period of time or the action of diluting the wine with water (perhaps done at the Lord's Supper itself) are preferable. In the extreme situation where even greatly diluted wine may lead to severe temptation, no fully satisfactory answer, in the opinion of the CTCR, can be formulated. The counsel of completely foregoing Communion is clearly unsatisfactory. In this situation, too, the actions of diluting the wine with water or intinction would be preferable. The substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded. Luther's openness to Communion in one kind is difficult in view of confessional texts which strongly urge the Biblical paradigm of both kinds, though the Confessions do not address the extreme situation.

THEOLOGY AND PRACTICE OF THE LORD'S SUPPER: A Report of the Commission of Theology and Church Relations, The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, May 1983

Regarding the wine:

There is scholarly consensus that our Lord employed the earthly elements of bread and wine in His institution of Holy Communion...All four accounts of the Lord's Supper speak of "the cup." The content of this cup was most definitely wine. The references in Matt. 26:29 and parallels to the "fruit of the vine" would not have suggested anything else to Jesus' listeners than the grape wine of the Jewish Passover ritual. In 1 Cor. 11 :21 there is corroboration that the early Christian church understood wine for "fruit of the vine." Some of the Corinthians, sadly, had abused the Holy Supper by becoming drunk. The color, type, or origin of the grape wine is a matter which Christians can select in accord with their situation.

Regarding whether one might commune in 'one kind' only:

Is Communion in which the communicant receives only the bread or only the wine an adiaphoron in the church? No. The Lord invites us to partake of both His body and His blood in the bread and wine. The Confessions speak directly to this question when they assert:
There can be no doubt that the use of both kinds in the Lord's Supper is godly and in accord with the institution of Christ and the words of Paul. For Christ instituted both kinds, and he did not do so only for part of the church, but for all of the church (Ap XXII, 1).
We also hold that it is not to be administered in one form only. We need not resort to the specious learning of the sophists and the Council of Constance that as much is included under one form as under both. Even if it were true that as much is included under one form as under both, yet administration in one form is not the whole order and institution as it was established and commanded by Christ. Especially do we condemn and curse in God's name those who not oniy omit both forms but even go so far as autocratically to prohibit, condemn, and slander the use of both as heresy and thus set themselves against and over Christ, our Lord and God, etc. (SA III, vi, 2-4).

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 10, 2020, 07:51:36 PM


We also hold that it is not to be administered in one form only. We need not resort to the specious learning of the sophists and the Council of Constance that as much is included under one form as under both. Even if it were true that as much is included under one form as under both, yet administration in one form is not the whole order and institution as it was established and commanded by Christ. Especially do we condemn and curse in God's name those who not oniy omit both forms but even go so far as autocratically to prohibit, condemn, and slander the use of both as heresy and thus set themselves against and over Christ, our Lord and God, etc. (SA III, vi, 2-4).

But let's think about context here. The issue at the time of the Reformation was that the church was administering in one form only. Those coming to the sacrament did not have a choice. They got the host only, period. The Confessions rightly condemn this. But I do not think that this demands that a communicant receive in both forms, does it? If, for reasons of health, a communicant abstains from one element or the other, do you not believe he or she receives the full benefit of the sacrament?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 10, 2020, 07:57:50 PM
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently.

In these situations, the word that Brian writes from the ELCA is appropriate:  The use of only one element is acceptable where there are special difficul­ties.

Such difficulties exist in at least many areas of our country right now.

Dave benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 10, 2020, 08:19:39 PM
If grape juice is not the Blood of Christ in the Sacrament then millions, possibly hundreds of millions brothers and sisters in Christ never receive the Sacrament.  What shall we tell them when we meet in glory?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 10, 2020, 08:48:07 PM
If grape juice is not the Blood of Christ in the Sacrament then millions, possibly hundreds of millions brothers and sisters in Christ never receive the Sacrament.  What shall we tell them when we meet in glory?

I expect we'll be too busy praising God to worry about what to tell them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 10, 2020, 10:45:40 PM
The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently. <Emphasis Added>

<snip>

Dave benke
The choice of ‘query’ above is at best misleading.


Following the reading of Rev. Benke’s post, Rev. Preus’s post was reviewed to identify the question (query) Rev. Preus addressed to the forum. 


Unable to find a question mark in Rev. Preus’s post (quoted above for the reader’s convenience), it is apparent that Rev. Preus is sharing his personal experience ... NOT posing a question as Rev. Benke alleged.


Apparently Rev. Preus’s rural ministry experiences and Rev. Benke’s urban experiences differ greatly ... and it is beneficial for both to share these experiences with the forum.


I’m confident that if I have misinterpreted Rev. Preus’s post above, he will clarify his post.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 11, 2020, 09:06:46 AM
The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently. <Emphasis Added>

<snip>

Dave benke
The choice of ‘query’ above is at best misleading.


Following the reading of Rev. Benke’s post, Rev. Preus’s post was reviewed to identify the question (query) Rev. Preus addressed to the forum. 


Unable to find a question mark in Rev. Preus’s post (quoted above for the reader’s convenience), it is apparent that Rev. Preus is sharing his personal experience ... NOT posing a question as Rev. Benke alleged.


Apparently Rev. Preus’s rural ministry experiences and Rev. Benke’s urban experiences differ greatly ... and it is beneficial for both to share these experiences with the forum.


I’m confident that if I have misinterpreted Rev. Preus’s post above, he will clarify his post.

OK - to RD's comment, then.

What could be misleading in your response here is that there is some inherent difference in alcoholism or alcoholics by geography - rural and urban in this case.  That's untrue.  It's a progressive disease that cuts through all indicators of race, class, gender, religion and location. 

Second, alcoholics have not come to me stating that they were "taught" a "not one drop doctrine."  They have come with specific and personal reasons for not touching/tasting/drinking alcohol, and not all have been in AA anyway.

Finally, receiving the Eucharist in one kind is, to me, a better alternative to faithful reception than having grape juice and wine both available. 

And to add an item, there are also folks who desire and need gluten free hosts/wafers because of specific health issues.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 11, 2020, 09:13:34 AM
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 11, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.

I make no judgment on what recovering alcoholics tell me about their needs.  And if they indicate they cannot have any alcohol, they receive in one kind.  When you say "physically, such an amount is not a problem," I can't really respond, because whatever triggers that person's response, whether physical, emotional, mental - whatever - is what matters to them, and therefore to me. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Keith Falk on March 11, 2020, 09:54:10 AM
Y'all realize you two aren't really disagreeing, right?  You both are responding pastorally to the situation, trying to meet the needs of the alcoholic.  Based off of what he wrote, Pastor Bohler has had alcoholics who have made that known to him, and he has worked through with them how to give them Holy Communion in a way that works for their disease.  He did not say anything about emotional or mental problems with the consumption of a drop or two of wine, only physical - and it is quite likely that he is right.  Also, Pastor Bohler did not say that if an alcoholic refused to drink even diluted wine or refused intinction that he would tell the person, "Tough taters, YOU DRINK THAT WINE NOW!" or anything else along those lines.
Pastor Benke is also responding to the needs of the people he is serving, in that if an alcoholic refused to drink any wine at all, he is giving them communion in one kind.  And it is good that the response of the alcoholic matters to him, as it must to Pastor Bohler, as well, based off of his post.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 11, 2020, 10:43:24 AM
The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently. <Emphasis Added>

<snip>

Dave benke
The choice of ‘query’ above is at best misleading.


Following the reading of Rev. Benke’s post, Rev. Preus’s post was reviewed to identify the question (query) Rev. Preus addressed to the forum. 


Unable to find a question mark in Rev. Preus’s post (quoted above for the reader’s convenience), it is apparent that Rev. Preus is sharing his personal experience ... NOT posing a question as Rev. Benke alleged.


Apparently Rev. Preus’s rural ministry experiences and Rev. Benke’s urban experiences differ greatly ... and it is beneficial for both to share these experiences with the forum.


I’m confident that if I have misinterpreted Rev. Preus’s post above, he will clarify his post.

OK - to RD's comment, then.

What could be misleading in your response here is that there is some inherent difference in alcoholism or alcoholics by geography - rural and urban in this case.  That's untrue.  It's a progressive disease that cuts through all indicators of race, class, gender, religion and location. 

Second, alcoholics have not come to me stating that they were "taught" a "not one drop doctrine."  They have come with specific and personal reasons for not touching/tasting/drinking alcohol, and not all have been in AA anyway.

Finally, receiving the Eucharist in one kind is, to me, a better alternative to faithful reception than having grape juice and wine both available. 

And to add an item, there are also folks who desire and need gluten free hosts/wafers because of specific health issues.

Dave Benke

David, if by putting the words "taught" and "not one drop doctrine" within quotation marks you are saying that these specific words have not been spoken to you by alcoholics, I am not surprised.  They have not been spoken to me either.  Those were my words accurately describing what alcoholics over the years have communicated to me.  AA groups differ.  I have talked to many parishioners who have attended AA meetings in Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Montana, in both rural and urban communities, over the past forty years or so.  I listen to what they say. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 11, 2020, 10:57:15 AM
The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently. <Emphasis Added>

<snip>

Dave benke
The choice of ‘query’ above is at best misleading.


Following the reading of Rev. Benke’s post, Rev. Preus’s post was reviewed to identify the question (query) Rev. Preus addressed to the forum. 


Unable to find a question mark in Rev. Preus’s post (quoted above for the reader’s convenience), it is apparent that Rev. Preus is sharing his personal experience ... NOT posing a question as Rev. Benke alleged.


Apparently Rev. Preus’s rural ministry experiences and Rev. Benke’s urban experiences differ greatly ... and it is beneficial for both to share these experiences with the forum.


I’m confident that if I have misinterpreted Rev. Preus’s post above, he will clarify his post.

OK - to RD's comment, then.

What could be misleading in your response here is that there is some inherent difference in alcoholism or alcoholics by geography - rural and urban in this case.  That's untrue.  It's a progressive disease that cuts through all indicators of race, class, gender, religion and location. 

Second, alcoholics have not come to me stating that they were "taught" a "not one drop doctrine."  They have come with specific and personal reasons for not touching/tasting/drinking alcohol, and not all have been in AA anyway.

Finally, receiving the Eucharist in one kind is, to me, a better alternative to faithful reception than having grape juice and wine both available. 

And to add an item, there are also folks who desire and need gluten free hosts/wafers because of specific health issues.

Dave Benke

David, if by putting the words "taught" and "not one drop doctrine" within quotation marks you are saying that these specific words have not been spoken to you by alcoholics, I am not surprised.  They have not been spoken to me either.  Those were my words accurately describing what alcoholics over the years have communicated to me.  AA groups differ.  I have talked to many parishioners who have attended AA meetings in Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Montana, in both rural and urban communities, over the past forty years or so.  I listen to what they say.

Correct.  Same here over a few additional years.  I listen to what they say, and act accordingly and pastorally.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on March 11, 2020, 11:46:07 AM
Y'all realize you two aren't really disagreeing, right?  You both are responding pastorally to the situation, trying to meet the needs of the alcoholic.  Based off of what he wrote, Pastor Bohler has had alcoholics who have made that known to him, and he has worked through with them how to give them Holy Communion in a way that works for their disease.  He did not say anything about emotional or mental problems with the consumption of a drop or two of wine, only physical - and it is quite likely that he is right.  Also, Pastor Bohler did not say that if an alcoholic refused to drink even diluted wine or refused intinction that he would tell the person, "Tough taters, YOU DRINK THAT WINE NOW!" or anything else along those lines.
Pastor Benke is also responding to the needs of the people he is serving, in that if an alcoholic refused to drink any wine at all, he is giving them communion in one kind.  And it is good that the response of the alcoholic matters to him, as it must to Pastor Bohler, as well, based off of his post.

Good job in highlighting this, Keith.  They share more in common than just Packer-love.  They just don't like to admit that.   ;D

Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 11, 2020, 12:29:09 PM
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.

I heartily agree here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 11, 2020, 12:55:30 PM
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.

I heartily agree here.

The practice I've most often heard of in the Orthodox Church is a piece of the bread with just a very tiny amount of wine dropped onto it.  Some priests reserve this for people with such issues.  The opposite is true of people with gluten allergies.  The wine with maybe a tiny crumb of bread (if that -- it all being mingled there is a certain amount of bread in there anyway) would be offered.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 11, 2020, 02:23:10 PM
Anyone can quibble about anything. For example, it says, "take, drink." Is eating moist bread really drinking? Nearly all food has some moisture in it, but we still distinguish eating and drinking. So by that logic, intinction should be invalid.

When I teach the Sacrament, I always go back to Passover and ask the class to imagine themselves as the firstborn son. All of them are going to die unless a lamb dies in their place according to God's institution of the Passover. What will make them sleep soundly? Doing it like God says. If someone says, "I just painted this doorpost. How much blood do I have to put on it? Is one tiny dot sufficient?" Or, "This lamb is two years old and has a very slight, hardly noticeable defect. Can I still use it?" the appropriate, pastoral response is to tell them they're asking silly questions that are beside the point, and they should just do it the normal way.

However, if someone is in bed and worried. "What if the neighbor's dog licks the blood off our doorpost? Will I die tonight?" or, "I can't remember exactly when our lamb was born-- are we sure it was a year old?" then the appropriate pastoral response would be more like, "I'm sure the dog won't get every molecule. God will know what happened."

The key is to resist the nearly overwhelming tendency for exceptions to become the norm. Just do it the way it was instituted. And if there needs to be some exception, make sure it remains exceptional.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 11, 2020, 04:25:33 PM
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.

I heartily agree here.

The practice I've most often heard of in the Orthodox Church is a piece of the bread with just a very tiny amount of wine dropped onto it.  Some priests reserve this for people with such issues.  The opposite is true of people with gluten allergies.  The wine with maybe a tiny crumb of bread (if that -- it all being mingled there is a certain amount of bread in there anyway) would be offered.

This is valuable as well.  Thanks
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 11, 2020, 04:26:13 PM
Anyone can quibble about anything. For example, it says, "take, drink." It eating moist bread really drinking? Nearly all food as some moisture in it, but we still distinguish eating and drinking. So by that logic, intinction should be invalid.

When I teach the Sacrament, I always go back to Passover and ask the class to image themselves as the firstborn son. All of them are going to die unless a lamb dies in their place according to God's institution of the Passover. What will make them sleep soundly? Doing it like God says. If someone says, "I just painted this doorpost. How much blood do I have to put on it? Is one tiny dot sufficient?" Or, "This lamb is two years old and has a very slight, hardly noticeable defect. Can I still use it?" the appropriate, pastoral response is to tell them they're asking silly questions that are beside the point, and they should just do it the normal way.

However, if someone is in bed and worried. "What if the neighbor's dog licks the blood off our doorpost? Will I die tonight?" or, "I can't remember exactly when our lamb was born-- are we sure it was a year old?" then the appropriate pastoral response would be more like, "I'm sure the dog won't get every molecule. God will know what happened."

The key is to not resist the nearly overwhelming tendency for exceptions to become the norm. Just do it the way it was instituted. And if there needs to be some exception, make sure it remains exceptional.

Yes, most certainly to your final point. 

This has plagued the LCMS In Convention for pretty much ever because somebody needs to fine-tune resolutions on pastoral exception with regard to the Sacrament of the Altar that have been tuned to within a microdot already, so which are and have been for decades exceptional exceptions. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 11, 2020, 04:27:27 PM
Anyone can quibble about anything. For example, it says, "take, drink." It eating moist bread really drinking? Nearly all food as some moisture in it, but we still distinguish eating and drinking. So by that logic, intinction should be invalid.

When I teach the Sacrament, I always go back to Passover and ask the class to image themselves as the firstborn son. All of them are going to die unless a lamb dies in their place according to God's institution of the Passover. What will make them sleep soundly? Doing it like God says. If someone says, "I just painted this doorpost. How much blood do I have to put on it? Is one tiny dot sufficient?" Or, "This lamb is two years old and has a very slight, hardly noticeable defect. Can I still use it?" the appropriate, pastoral response is to tell them they're asking silly questions that are beside the point, and they should just do it the normal way.

However, if someone is in bed and worried. "What if the neighbor's dog licks the blood off our doorpost? Will I die tonight?" or, "I can't remember exactly when our lamb was born-- are we sure it was a year old?" then the appropriate pastoral response would be more like, "I'm sure the dog won't get every molecule. God will know what happened."

The key is to not resist the nearly overwhelming tendency for exceptions to become the norm. Just do it the way it was instituted. And if there needs to be some exception, make sure it remains exceptional.

This is sensible advice, as well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 11, 2020, 05:20:15 PM
The Episcopal Diocese of DC has canceled all worship services and closed its churches for at least two weeks.  From the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/03/11/episcopal-diocese-washington-closes-dozens-churches-including-national-cathedral-two-weeks/):

Episcopal churches in the District and the Maryland and Virginia suburbs -- including Washington National Cathedral -- are closing for two weeks because of the coronavirus (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/28/what-you-need-know-about-coronavirus/?tid=lk_inline_manual_3&itid=lk_inline_manual_3), church leaders said Wednesday.
Bishop Mariann Budde, who oversees 88 congregations in the District and Maryland that serve about 38,000 people, said all buildings would be completely closed until March 25, including weekday activities and Sunday services. Susan Goff, the Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia, said 179 churches in the Virginia suburbs, with about 68,000 members, would do the same.


Oh, and the NCAA tournament will be played in fan-free arenas.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: TERJr on March 11, 2020, 06:01:08 PM
Here is the link to the announcement from the Diocese of Virginia: http://www.thediocese.net/news/covid-19-and-worship/ (http://www.thediocese.net/news/covid-19-and-worship/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 11, 2020, 06:43:26 PM
Here is the link to the announcement from the Diocese of Virginia: http://www.thediocese.net/news/covid-19-and-worship/ (http://www.thediocese.net/news/covid-19-and-worship/)

"As a step toward doing this, Bishop Brooke-Davidson, three diocesan staff members and I met virtually with 185 of our clergy this afternoon..."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 11, 2020, 06:46:03 PM
The 1983 CTCR document correctly says that the "substitution of grape juice raises the question of whether the Lord's instruction is being heeded."  I cannot in good conscience give grape juice to communicants while saying that it is the true blood of Christ when I don't know for sure that it is.  I have suggested to alcoholics who wanted grape juice that I could give them watered down wine and no one has yet laughed at this.  I do know that some AA groups teach the "not one drop" doctrine that frightens their members away from the Sacrament.  I believe this is irresponsible.  Other AA groups assure their members that there is nothing to fear from the tiny bit of alcohol received in the Lord's Supper.
to RD's query, yes, there are alcoholics and those with multiple chemical dependencies who cannot be around alcohol at all.  I have encountered that multiple times, up to and including currently. <Emphasis Added>

<snip>

Dave benke
The choice of ‘query’ above is at best misleading.


Following the reading of Rev. Benke’s post, Rev. Preus’s post was reviewed to identify the question (query) Rev. Preus addressed to the forum. 


Unable to find a question mark in Rev. Preus’s post (quoted above for the reader’s convenience), it is apparent that Rev. Preus is sharing his personal experience ... NOT posing a question as Rev. Benke alleged.


Apparently Rev. Preus’s rural ministry experiences and Rev. Benke’s urban experiences differ greatly ... and it is beneficial for both to share these experiences with the forum.


I’m confident that if I have misinterpreted Rev. Preus’s post above, he will clarify his post.

OK - to RD's comment, then.

What could be misleading in your response here is that there is some inherent difference in alcoholism or alcoholics by geography - rural and urban in this case.  That's untrue.  It's a progressive disease that cuts through all indicators of race, class, gender, religion and location.  <Emphasis added >

Second, alcoholics have not come to me stating that they were "taught" a "not one drop doctrine."  They have come with specific and personal reasons for not touching/tasting/drinking alcohol, and not all have been in AA anyway.

Finally, receiving the Eucharist in one kind is, to me, a better alternative to faithful reception than having grape juice and wine both available. 

And to add an item, there are also folks who desire and need gluten free hosts/wafers because of specific health issues.

Dave Benke
Thank you for your ‘OK to RD’s comment’.


The bolded comment that follows is misleading.  I made NEVER used the words alcoholism or alcoholics.  I simply stated that ‘it is beneficial for both you and Rev. Preus to share your ministry experiences with the forum.’


A statement NEVER made can neither be ‘misleading’ or ‘untrue.’
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 11, 2020, 08:59:05 PM
Episcopal bishops, of course, have the authority to decree "no worship."

Here's part of what our diocese sent out today:

We will not cancel worship. We worship God regularly, including Sunday worship, and we expect our clergy to lead Sunday worship and proclaim the Gospel. There are many parishioners who have already chosen to stay home for personal health reasons. We need to plan for this and make alternate virtual worship available as the need arises


Gathering and Worship Practices

Greeters and Ushers - avoid handshakes or hugs
Make sure that people use hand sanitizer upon entering the building
Greet them with a smile (not a handshake) and a small dab of sanitizer
Place bulletins on a table and guide worshipers to pick up their own

Offering Plates - avoid passing the offering plate during your service 
Have a few plates placed centrally in your worship space to collect offerings
Make announcements that explain this new procedure
Utilize online giving 

Font and Stoup - Drain standing holy water from all containers
Do not maintain a font or open vessel of standing holy water near the entrance to or anywhere in the church
Use baptismal symbols, such as an icon of the baptism of Jesus, river rock, or even sand, to symbolize the Lenten journey, in place of water in these vessels

Passing the Peace - Use an alternative greeting to shaking hands
Bow to one another with your hands in a prayer position
Place your hands on your heart, and say “peace be with you”
No hugs, kisses, or getting too close to each other’s faces
Teach a greeting in ASL, such as God loves you

Eucharist - Follow these steps:
All service ministers, clergy and lay, should wash hands with soap and water directly before worship
It is recommended that you use wafers instead of bread to minimize handling
All service leaders should use hand sanitizer during the offertory

Regarding Communion Wine - Direction from Bishop Megan:
At the discretion of the Clergy-in-Charge, you may decide to serve communion in one kind
Please have a small amount of wine presented at the offertory
Pour the wine into the chalice and pray the Eucharistic Prayer, as usual, consecrating bread and wine
Leave the chalice on the altar; there to honor and represent Christ’s blood for all
No one should consume the wine during the service
It should be returned reverently to the earth following the service
Use this as a time of teaching:
about spiritual communion
of the completeness of communion in one kind
allow space for confusion or grief
No intinction or dipping is allowed

Serving Communion - Please follow these guidelines:
Serve the Eucharist from standing communion stations in front of the altar rail, avoiding contact with the rail, so as to minimize germ transmission.
If you choose to serve communion in both kinds:
If participants do not want to sip from the common cup, let them receive the bread and acknowledge the cup as they pass the chalice bearer
Do not allow dipping of bread in the wine, (intinction) as it spreads germs and is unclean. The chalice bearer will not intinct either, as this is also problematic
This is a good moment to remember a core principle of our Eucharistic theology: the sacrament is complete when administered in just one kind (in this case, the consecrated bread)

Eucharistic Visitors and Visiting the Elderly - Weigh the benefit to risk:
Determine whether the visit is essential
Follow the General Prevention guidelines outlined at the top of this document
Do not put yourself or others at risk of getting ill
If you are feeling sick, or hear that the one your are to visit is feeling ill, don’t visit
Engage these folks with virtual visits through a phone call or video calling (FaceTime)
This may involve some teaching in how to use this technology
Work with staff and caregivers to help instruct the parishioner
Follow the recommendations of the public health departments and the care facilities in your area

Cleaning - There are several cleaning practices that should be observed:
Sanitize the altar rail after each service
Sanitize pew/chair tops after each service
Clean communion vessels thoroughly after each service with soap and hot water
Use new linen for each service
Sanitize doorknobs and push bars after each service
Sanitize all spaces after use: table tops, chairs, counter tops, etc.
Organize volunteer teams to sanitize a room after use
Require the group using the space to sanitize as a condition of using the space


Not entirely clear to me how much of this is under the rubric of "At the discretion of the Clergy-in-Charge" or if the "Please follow these guidelines" is a mandate or a polite request.

Our rector has mentioned a couple of times that one of his predecessors at Emmanuel was arrested in 1918 for holding services during the flu epidemic in spite of governmental instruction not to do so. I've got to look that up!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 11, 2020, 09:54:29 PM
Pastor Bohler:
In 27 years of ministry, I have never had a recovering alcoholic tell me he could not handle ANY wine.  That is, all have been agreeable to either diluting the wine, or only drinking a small portion, or intinction.  How much alcohol do you think there is in a drop or two of wine?  My guess -- which I am sure Rev. Austin will tell me is ignorant -- is that physically, such an amount is not a problem.
Pastor Preus:
David, if by putting the words "taught" and "not one drop doctrine" within quotation marks you are saying that these specific words have not been spoken to you by alcoholics, I am not surprised.  They have not been spoken to me either.  Those were my words accurately describing what alcoholics over the years have communicated to me.  AA groups differ.  I have talked to many parishioners who have attended AA meetings in Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Montana, in both rural and urban communities, over the past forty years or so.  I listen to what they say.

Me:
I have no means by which I can either adequately explain to you what flaws I find in your attitudes or query you about the quantity or depth or length of your experiences with people in recovery.  So I will not try. I will simply try not to worry too much about how your views might affect people that you might meet in recovery or in need of recovery.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 11, 2020, 11:19:24 PM

Our rector has mentioned a couple of times that one of his predecessors at Emmanuel was arrested in 1918 for holding services during the flu epidemic in spite of governmental instruction not to do so. I've got to look that up!

OK, did a little research on this. Apparently he was actually arrested for not wearing a mask when conducting a funeral. But there was also a disapproving notice in the newspaper that he had conducted Sunday services in spite of the city order not to do so. He was ultimately convicted and fined $15. It didn't seem to stop him from doing ministry; the paper all during this period is filled with stories of funerals and weddings he was doing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 12, 2020, 12:20:45 AM
Here is an excellent pastoral letter from Anglican Church in North America Archbishop Foley Beach:


Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

The global spread of COVID-19, the coronavirus, has become a focus of attention and concern for many of us. Many bishops, diocesan leaders, and experts in the field of medicine have consulted with the Province since this disease was first reported.

Drawing on their deep wisdom, I offer these points, which speak to both the physical and spiritual concerns that naturally occur at a time like this:

1. Trust God.

In the midst of uncertainty, we trust God. He is sovereign over human history and over our lives. He is the Lord, "our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble" (Psalm 46:1). And he is loving and merciful. Psalm 100:5 assures us, "For the LORD is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations."

We witness to our Christian faith when we resist panic, knowing that our times are in the Lord's hand (Psalm 31:15). No one can snatch us out of the Father's hand (John 10:28-29). And so, "for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

The Book of Common Prayer offers on page 269 a list of suggested Psalms on many helpful themes, including God's sovereignty, providence and mercy, trust in God, and living faithfully in times of trouble. If reading from the Psalms is not a part of your daily prayers, try turning to one of these psalms each day to keep your heart focused on the Lord and his presence and care.

2. Be informed.

There is much on the internet from unhelpful extreme perspectives that encourage either panic or complacency. Neither is appropriate. Pay attention to health advisories from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and your state and local governments.

The CDC website provides a wealth of information about the disease and appropriate steps for individuals, churches, schools, and businesses to take.

You may wish to subscribe to the CDC's COVID-19 newsletter to get regular updates. Go to their newsletter subscription page and choose the newsletter entitled, "Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)."

Avail yourself of your own state's Department of Health website for the most up-to-date information, treatment, and infection control measures for your particular region of the country.

3. Be prudent.

Wash your hands! Wash them frequently and thoroughly, for a minimum of 20 seconds using soap and warm water. There is no substitute for this. While alcohol-based hand sanitizers can kill bacteria, they have not been shown to be adequate against COVID-19 or other viruses. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently warned Purell's manufacturer to cease advertising it as an effective agent against viruses. Avoid touching your eyes, nose, and mouth with unwashed hands.

For cleaning surfaces, such as doorknobs, countertops, etc., the CDC and our experts recommend using bleach (1 part bleach to 100 parts water).

If you have symptoms of a cough, disease, or a fever within the last 24 hours, please stay at home. Infectious disease specialists in the Anglican Church in North America have emphasized how vitally important this is, though COVID-19 can also be spread by people who have not developed symptoms of illness.

If you are returning from known areas of higher prevalence of COVID-19, we encourage you not to attend church for two weeks. The list of affected areas and the period of self-quarantine will likely change in the weeks ahead.

Prudence and care, especially for those who are susceptible to this and other viral illness, will require extraordinary leadership in the weeks to come. The diocesan bishops of the Anglican Church in North America will be developing plans and guidance to be used in their own dioceses. You may be receiving guidance from your bishop about any temporary changes that may be warranted in your church's worship during this crisis. These are godly men that work carefully with the clergy and experts under their care to find the most appropriate course of action for the parishes under their watch. Knowing that sometimes difficult decisions may have to be made, I ask you to pray daily for the men and women involved in these diocesan processes and to carefully listen and follow their direction.

4. Act in love.

Reach out to your neighbors, particularly the elderly and those who are vulnerable or alone.

Let us pray:

Almighty God, our strong tower of defense in time of trouble: We offer you praise and heartfelt thanks for our deliverance from the dangers which lately surrounded us and for your gracious gift of peace. We confess that your goodness alone has preserved us; and we ask you still to continue your mercies toward us, that we may always know and acknowledge you as our Savior and mighty Deliverer; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 08:35:20 AM
The World Health Organization has now officially declared the coronavirus as a pandemic. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51839944 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51839944)

WHO chief Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said the number of cases outside China had increased 13-fold in two weeks. He said he was "deeply concerned" by "alarming levels of inaction".

A pandemic is a disease that is spreading in multiple countries around the world at the same time.  Dr Tedros said that calling the outbreak a pandemic did not mean the WHO was changing its advice about what countries should do.

He called on governments to change the course of the outbreak by taking "urgent and aggressive action".

"Several countries have demonstrated that this virus can be suppressed and controlled," he said.

"The challenge for many countries who are now dealing with large clusters or community transmission is not whether they can do the same - it's whether they will."

The President has also declared a 30 day travel restriction on travel from Europe.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-announces-travel-europe-restricted-amid-coronavirus-threat/story?id=69543646 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-announces-travel-europe-restricted-amid-coronavirus-threat/story?id=69543646)





Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 12, 2020, 10:54:37 AM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 11:24:02 AM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke

In California the governor "urged an end to gatherings of more than 250 people to counter the spread of new coronavirus."  Such limits would not impact me as I am lucky most Sundays to get 150. Likewise the majority of LCMS churches. The article also says "smaller events can proceed only if organizers can keep people at least six feet apart to avoid transmission of the virus. The policy does not apply to school classes. Gatherings that include those at higher risk for severe illness should be limited to no more than 10 people no closer than six feet apart."  That part would be hardly to comply with. 

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html (https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 12, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke

In California the governor "urged an end to gatherings of more than 250 people to counter the spread of new coronavirus."  Such limits would not impact me as I am lucky most Sundays to get 150. Likewise the majority of LCMS churches. The article also says "smaller events can proceed only if organizers can keep people at least six feet apart to avoid transmission of the virus. The policy does not apply to school classes. Gatherings that include those at higher risk for severe illness should be limited to no more than 10 people no closer than six feet apart."  That part would be hardly to comply with. 

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html (https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html)

This is unfolding on an hour by hour basis here in NY.  I'm listening in as our task force and bishop/president converse on what we're going to do in the Atlantic District LCMS congregations.  I'll get you that bulletin as it's produced.  There are more specific measures that may be taken by governmental leaders, which I'll also communicate as they are received. 

This morning I went back in our parish records to the Death Register in the time of the global flu pandemic in the late 19teens.  St. Peter's had 36 funerals from the flu/pneumonia/complications over a year and a half, at that time among maybe 400 members. 

I'm reminded of "Wie Schon Leuchtet der Morgenstern," written by Philip Nicolai in 1597 during an outbreak of the black plague that decimated his congregation.  "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" is our watchword.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 12, 2020, 01:18:56 PM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html).

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke


The NY Times is not correct.  Taking seriously the NYT's characterizations of Fox News coverage (or Fox News's characterizations of NYT coverage) will lead one astray almost every time.  It's no wonder that people on each extreme of the political spectrum have such distorted perspectives of those on the other. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 12, 2020, 01:25:00 PM
My daughter is waiting to hear about how she will be getting home from Paris. Given the state of things here and there, I still think she’d be just as safe staying put, and without the added dangers of international air travel. But given that staying isn’t proving to be a realistic option, I will say that Valpo has been very responsive and cooperative with queries and guidance despite the enormous logistical headaches involved.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 12, 2020, 01:43:29 PM
My daughter is waiting to hear about how she will be getting home from Paris. Given the state of things here and there, I still think she’d be just as safe staying put, and without the added dangers of international air travel. But given that staying isn’t proving to be a realistic option, I will say that Valpo has been very responsive and cooperative with queries and guidance despite the enormous logistical headaches involved.


I've wondered what would happen to US citizens/residents who want to get home from Europe.  I presume that the airlines will cancel most or all of their flights for the next weeks?  I guess if she can get to London, she could fly home from there.  But on balance, it's no doubts after to maintain social distancing in Paris than to right on trains or planes for hours at a time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 01:50:46 PM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke

In California the governor "urged an end to gatherings of more than 250 people to counter the spread of new coronavirus."  Such limits would not impact me as I am lucky most Sundays to get 150. Likewise the majority of LCMS churches. The article also says "smaller events can proceed only if organizers can keep people at least six feet apart to avoid transmission of the virus. The policy does not apply to school classes. Gatherings that include those at higher risk for severe illness should be limited to no more than 10 people no closer than six feet apart."  That part would be hardly to comply with. 

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html (https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html)

This is unfolding on an hour by hour basis here in NY.  I'm listening in as our task force and bishop/president converse on what we're going to do in the Atlantic District LCMS congregations.  I'll get you that bulletin as it's produced.  There are more specific measures that may be taken by governmental leaders, which I'll also communicate as they are received. 

This morning I went back in our parish records to the Death Register in the time of the global flu pandemic in the late 19teens.  St. Peter's had 36 funerals from the flu/pneumonia/complications over a year and a half, at that time among maybe 400 members. 

I'm reminded of "Wie Schon Leuchtet der Morgenstern," written by Philip Nicolai in 1597 during an outbreak of the black plague that decimated his congregation.  "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" is our watchword.

Dave Benke

The governor of my state has just declared a public health emergency in Wisconsin and we have only 6 confirmed cases of caronavirus.  The declaration opens the Department of Health Services to "use all the resources necessary to respond to and contain the outbreak."  Also, DHS will be able to purchase, store or distribute medications "regardless of insurance or other health coverage." State funds can be used to support local health departments. It also allows the use of the Wisconsin National Guard in case of emergency.

Dr. Ashok Rai, Prevea Health President/CEO was also quoted as saying the United States health care infrastructure is not designed for a pandemic.

https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html (https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html)

The other day I did my Bible study for our Men's Club on the caronavirus.  I noted some things Luther said regarding the plague in 1527 when it hit Wittenberg. In a letter to George Spalatin he wrote: "A pestilence has broken out here, but it is rather mild.  Still the fear of men and their flight before it are remarkable. I have never before seen such a marvel of satanic power, greatly is he terrifying everybody.”  How little things have changed in over 500 years....
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 12, 2020, 02:01:30 PM
My daughter is waiting to hear about how she will be getting home from Paris. Given the state of things here and there, I still think she’d be just as safe staying put, and without the added dangers of international air travel. But given that staying isn’t proving to be a realistic option, I will say that Valpo has been very responsive and cooperative with queries and guidance despite the enormous logistical headaches involved.

I believe the travel restrictions do not apply to U.S. citizens but only to aliens. She should be OK, although the frequency of flights might be reduced. 

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 12, 2020, 02:22:24 PM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke

In California the governor "urged an end to gatherings of more than 250 people to counter the spread of new coronavirus."  Such limits would not impact me as I am lucky most Sundays to get 150. Likewise the majority of LCMS churches. The article also says "smaller events can proceed only if organizers can keep people at least six feet apart to avoid transmission of the virus. The policy does not apply to school classes. Gatherings that include those at higher risk for severe illness should be limited to no more than 10 people no closer than six feet apart."  That part would be hardly to comply with. 

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html (https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html)

This is unfolding on an hour by hour basis here in NY.  I'm listening in as our task force and bishop/president converse on what we're going to do in the Atlantic District LCMS congregations.  I'll get you that bulletin as it's produced.  There are more specific measures that may be taken by governmental leaders, which I'll also communicate as they are received. 

This morning I went back in our parish records to the Death Register in the time of the global flu pandemic in the late 19teens.  St. Peter's had 36 funerals from the flu/pneumonia/complications over a year and a half, at that time among maybe 400 members. 

I'm reminded of "Wie Schon Leuchtet der Morgenstern," written by Philip Nicolai in 1597 during an outbreak of the black plague that decimated his congregation.  "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" is our watchword.

Dave Benke

The governor of my state has just declared a public health emergency in Wisconsin and we have only 6 confirmed cases of caronavirus.  The declaration opens the Department of Health Services to "use all the resources necessary to respond to and contain the outbreak."  Also, DHS will be able to purchase, store or distribute medications "regardless of insurance or other health coverage." State funds can be used to support local health departments. It also allows the use of the Wisconsin National Guard in case of emergency.

Dr. Ashok Rai, Prevea Health President/CEO was also quoted as saying the United States health care infrastructure is not designed for a pandemic.

https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html (https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html)

The other day I did my Bible study for our Men's Club on the caronavirus.  I noted some things Luther said regarding the plague in 1527 when it hit Wittenberg. In a letter to George Spalatin he wrote: "A pestilence has broken out here, but it is rather mild.  Still the fear of men and their flight before it are remarkable. I have never before seen such a marvel of satanic power, greatly is he terrifying everybody.”  How little things have changed in over 500 years....

I think it's safe to say the plague was not a hoax, Don.  Nor is this.  MLB Spring Training was just cancelled - we were down there just a week and a half ago for the Metsies.  We have many more cases at this time here in New York, but it is being taken seriously and mediated to us through health professionals.  Wouldn't you want to err on the side of caution? 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 12, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
She can come home whenever she wants, really. But the university has a deadline for its students to be back, and the concern is that other countries could impose bans or things could otherwise change. To be in compliance with their recommendations (and eligible for any help with added costs) she needs to be home Monday. She did buy a refundable ticket for a flight tomorrow (at a cost of $3000) just in case Boston University, VU, and the travel agency can't get her anything else, which they're working on today. The problem is that she only has 24 hours to cancel her reservation (about ten of which have already gone by), so if they don't tell her soon what the plan is soon, she'll have to decide whether to swallow a $3000 charge to get home or cancel it and risk not getting another flight until who knows when. Crazy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 12, 2020, 03:51:25 PM
These situations may be “crazy“ for people like us, but people in other parts of the world and people in our parts of the world with less means, experience, and access to services face “crazy“ situations, Sometimes even life-threatening situations, almost every day. One thing About A health crisis or epidemic is that it is no respecter of class, experience, or place on any scale.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 03:58:09 PM
As a religious congregation and as a church with a licensed day care center, we are informed regularly and daily about the coronavirus, including receiving materials and goods for cleaning as well as methods for information sharing.  It's been very helpful, and our Atlantic District Task Force on Disasters and Emergencies is also getting out information for our congregations including whether to hold services and how to take precautions.  All non-confusing and adding knowledge that can be used wisely.

I am not a Fox News watcher, but if the information in this NYTimes article is correct, I have concerns for those who are, because they're receiving a conflicting/confusing information stream:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-conservative-media.html.

As the NBA has suspended its season, as the presidential candidates, finally including the incumbent, are canceling large gatherings/rallies, it does seem that at some point in many parts of the country, there will be more advice not to hold religious worship services. 

Dave Benke

In California the governor "urged an end to gatherings of more than 250 people to counter the spread of new coronavirus."  Such limits would not impact me as I am lucky most Sundays to get 150. Likewise the majority of LCMS churches. The article also says "smaller events can proceed only if organizers can keep people at least six feet apart to avoid transmission of the virus. The policy does not apply to school classes. Gatherings that include those at higher risk for severe illness should be limited to no more than 10 people no closer than six feet apart."  That part would be hardly to comply with. 

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html (https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article241122446.html)

This is unfolding on an hour by hour basis here in NY.  I'm listening in as our task force and bishop/president converse on what we're going to do in the Atlantic District LCMS congregations.  I'll get you that bulletin as it's produced.  There are more specific measures that may be taken by governmental leaders, which I'll also communicate as they are received. 

This morning I went back in our parish records to the Death Register in the time of the global flu pandemic in the late 19teens.  St. Peter's had 36 funerals from the flu/pneumonia/complications over a year and a half, at that time among maybe 400 members. 

I'm reminded of "Wie Schon Leuchtet der Morgenstern," written by Philip Nicolai in 1597 during an outbreak of the black plague that decimated his congregation.  "Turn your eyes upon Jesus" is our watchword.

Dave Benke

The governor of my state has just declared a public health emergency in Wisconsin and we have only 6 confirmed cases of caronavirus.  The declaration opens the Department of Health Services to "use all the resources necessary to respond to and contain the outbreak."  Also, DHS will be able to purchase, store or distribute medications "regardless of insurance or other health coverage." State funds can be used to support local health departments. It also allows the use of the Wisconsin National Guard in case of emergency.

Dr. Ashok Rai, Prevea Health President/CEO was also quoted as saying the United States health care infrastructure is not designed for a pandemic.

https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html (https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Wisconsin-Gov-Evers-declares-public-health-emergency-for-coronavirus-568739761.html)

The other day I did my Bible study for our Men's Club on the caronavirus.  I noted some things Luther said regarding the plague in 1527 when it hit Wittenberg. In a letter to George Spalatin he wrote: "A pestilence has broken out here, but it is rather mild.  Still the fear of men and their flight before it are remarkable. I have never before seen such a marvel of satanic power, greatly is he terrifying everybody.”  How little things have changed in over 500 years....

I think it's safe to say the plague was not a hoax, Don.  Nor is this.  MLB Spring Training was just cancelled - we were down there just a week and a half ago for the Metsies.  We have many more cases at this time here in New York, but it is being taken seriously and mediated to us through health professionals.  Wouldn't you want to err on the side of caution? 

Dave Benke

I would most certainly want to err on the side of caution.  I don't think that Luther saw the plague in any way as a hoax.  He was simply reacting to the hysteria of his own time.  There is no doubt that the caronavirus is very serious. It is impacting every way of life.  Meetings and conferences and other mass events are being cancelled left and right.  My eldest daughter travels a lot as part of her work and has had most, if not all, of her recent trips cancelled.  My wife just had a conference cancelled today and is now working to get a refund on plane fare. The economy is reeling as it tries to adjust to a fluid and constantly changing situation.  But it is precisely at a time like this that a balance is needed.  People are giving in to fear and panic.  I live in northern Wisconsin and we are very distant from any reported cases of the virus and yet I hear that our local Walmart is out of toilet paper (a strange and recent event repeated all over the US) as people are panicking in anticipation of a mass quarantine that may never occur here.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 12, 2020, 04:05:56 PM
"...I live in northern Wisconsin and we are very distant from any reported cases of the virus and yet I hear that our local Walmart is out of toilet paper (a strange and recent event repeated all over the US) as people are panicking in anticipation of a mass quarantine that may never occur here."


I am in far NW Minnesota, and the same here: the local Walmart is totally out of toilet paper. But the local grocery store supply was full!  Go figure.  I was in Walmart the other day and the check-out woman told me that they were also sold out of hand sanitizer.  A shipment then came in, and within an hour it was all sold -- one woman bought virtually all of it.  Panic, panic, panic!!! The sky is falling!!!!  The end of the world is upon us!!!!!   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 12, 2020, 05:37:03 PM
There is a fine line, Pastor Bohler, between precaution and panic. I would not be inclined to make fun of those who find that line blurry.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 12, 2020, 06:34:13 PM
Rev. Austin, you write: "I have no means by which I can either adequately explain to you what flaws I find in your attitudes or query you about the quantity or depth or length of your experiences with people in recovery.  So I will not try. I will simply try not to worry too much about how your views might affect people that you might meet in recovery or in need of recovery."

You want Rev. Bohler and me to know that there are flaws in our attitudes and that our views might harm people we may meet in recovery or in need of recovery, but you will not deign to tell us what our flaws are.  You don't have the means to do that adequately, you say.  Trying to figure out why you would want to tell us that we're wrong without telling us how this is so I was reminded of my own distinction between German pietists and Norwegian pietists.  The German pietists are quite open about telling you what you are doing that is wrong and showing you the right way to do it.  It's the least they can do.  Correcting people makes Germans very happy, you know.  The Norwegian pietists are, on the surface, much nicer than the German pietists.  They don't tell you what to do.  They let you figure it out for yourself.  It would be rude of them to tell you clearly.  But they do let you know when you're doing something wrong.  It's the least they can do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 12, 2020, 07:21:36 PM
Rev. Austin, you write: "I have no means by which I can either adequately explain to you what flaws I find in your attitudes or query you about the quantity or depth or length of your experiences with people in recovery.  So I will not try. I will simply try not to worry too much about how your views might affect people that you might meet in recovery or in need of recovery."

You want Rev. Bohler and me to know that there are flaws in our attitudes and that our views might harm people we may meet in recovery or in need of recovery, but you will not deign to tell us what our flaws are.  You don't have the means to do that adequately, you say.  Trying to figure out why you would want to tell us that we're wrong without telling us how this is so I was reminded of my own distinction between German pietists and Norwegian pietists.  The German pietists are quite open about telling you what you are doing that is wrong and showing you the right way to do it.  It's the least they can do.  Correcting people makes Germans very happy, you know.  The Norwegian pietists are, on the surface, much nicer than the German pietists.  They don't tell you what to do.  They let you figure it out for yourself.  It would be rude of them to tell you clearly.  But they do let you know when you're doing something wrong.  It's the least they can do.

I think you're on to something with regards to the difference between German and Norwegian pietists.  One of the advisory components of coronavirus is that in order to prevent transmission among groups of people, everyone should have six feet of space around them (I guess in circumference).  In the northern European reality, that's not a problem.  I'm kind of a Latino/Caribbean by now, and when we meet, we sit right up next to one another.  No space.  Family connectedness.  It took me awhile to get into that.  So whereas the more Teutonic church meetings had agendas tightly run, in the Caribbean setting the meeting quickly devolves into a talking over one another family meeting with a lot of gesturing and emotion; and at the end everyone gives everyone else a big "abrazo"- embrace, says "I love you, see you Sunday" and goes home singing.  My way of explaining it is that in conflicted situations in Brooklyn we'd rather punch you in the nose than stab you in the back. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 12, 2020, 07:42:37 PM
As has been said, the way to tell if the Finn that you're talking to is an extrovert, if he looks at your feet, he's an extrovert.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 12, 2020, 08:34:29 PM
Rev. Austin, you write: "I have no means by which I can either adequately explain to you what flaws I find in your attitudes or query you about the quantity or depth or length of your experiences with people in recovery.  So I will not try. I will simply try not to worry too much about how your views might affect people that you might meet in recovery or in need of recovery."

You want Rev. Bohler and me to know that there are flaws in our attitudes and that our views might harm people we may meet in recovery or in need of recovery, but you will not deign to tell us what our flaws are.  You don't have the means to do that adequately, you say.  Trying to figure out why you would want to tell us that we're wrong without telling us how this is so I was reminded of my own distinction between German pietists and Norwegian pietists.  The German pietists are quite open about telling you what you are doing that is wrong and showing you the right way to do it.  It's the least they can do.  Correcting people makes Germans very happy, you know.  The Norwegian pietists are, on the surface, much nicer than the German pietists.  They don't tell you what to do.  They let you figure it out for yourself.  It would be rude of them to tell you clearly.  But they do let you know when you're doing something wrong.  It's the least they can do.

...  My way of explaining it is that in conflicted situations in Brooklyn we'd rather punch you in the nose than stab you in the back. 

Dave Benke

And chances are, you'll get both!  :). Oh, I know, I know, the people in NYC are just wonderful, wonderful.  It's New Jersey, apparently, that is the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 09:00:34 PM
There is a fine line, Pastor Bohler, between precaution and panic. I would not be inclined to make fun of those who find that line blurry.

I think when we see all out runs on basics like toilet paper and hand sanitizer (and bleach and disinfecting wipes) where people literally buy out the store, it's clearly panic. Precaution is simply being prepared; keeping a reasonable stock of necessities.  Panic feels that the world is out of control and I'm at imminent risk. Panic sees the world in apocalyptic shades of black. Why would the average person need so much toilet paper all at once, even when the risk is not imminent? I can only assume they predict that the 'risk' is being quarantined for months at a time with no access to a store.  I also wonder the mindset of people who rush out to buy out supplies with little concern about their neighbor's needs.  If I buy out the store my neighbor gets nothing.  Does that bother me?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 09:15:49 PM
This is an interesting article about the benefits of canceled events and self-quarantining.  The experts don't think that such measures are going to end the pandemic, but rather it will slow the growth and spread of it.  The critical issue here is about overloading our healthcare system, such as we are currently seeing in Italy.  If we "flatten out the curve," as they say, we can even out the total number of people in need of critical care at any given time and guarantee that services and equipment will be available when they are needed.  But if the numbers swell and the 'curve' peaks, then we may not have the healthcare workers or equipment to serve all at the level they need.  So limiting the number of mass gatherings actually is a very effective way of attacking this virus and its overall impact on our population.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/10/21171481/coronavirus-us-cases-quarantine-cancellation (https://www.vox.com/2020/3/10/21171481/coronavirus-us-cases-quarantine-cancellation)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 09:26:37 PM
An Episcopalian priest, with whom I did graduate work at Nashotah House, just wrote to his parish in Winston-Salem, NC that the bishops have directed that all public worship in his diocese be suspended until March 28. I was wondering when this would begin to impact the gathering of people for worship.  No doubt this will occur in many other jurisdictions in many other places before it is all over.  So much of our lives are being upended by this.  Only a few months ago it would have been unthinkable that such things might occur.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 12, 2020, 09:41:53 PM
In a downloadable bulletin insert provided from the LCMS on their website, they write:"Keep Gathering:  It should be our aim to continue to hold regular, physical services while possible. Come if you are well; stay home if you are sick or at increased risk."

https://files.lcms.org/wl/?id=PPGxCFoiWktIxANF5SrI9CXBHXASpnfs (https://files.lcms.org/wl/?id=PPGxCFoiWktIxANF5SrI9CXBHXASpnfs)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 12, 2020, 09:47:20 PM
In a downloadable bulletin insert provided from the LCMS on their website, they write:"Keep Gathering:  It should be our aim to continue to hold regular, physical services while possible. Come if you are well; stay home if you are sick or at increased risk."

https://files.lcms.org/wl/?id=PPGxCFoiWktIxANF5SrI9CXBHXASpnfs (https://files.lcms.org/wl/?id=PPGxCFoiWktIxANF5SrI9CXBHXASpnfs)

The Orthodox Christian hierarchs in North America (and elsewhere) have been stating the same message.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch wrote that the Holy Eucharist is the "medicine of immortality".

Now, more than ever, the people of God need the gifts of God.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 12, 2020, 10:51:21 PM
This afternoon the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Northern California directed all churches to suspend worship and other meetings (with a few exceptions, like 12-Step groups) for the immediate future. The Diocese of California had taken the same action earlier today.

I believe what the Sierra Pacific ELCA synod bishop has said is "I support whatever you decide to do in your local context."

Our plan at present is to do a liturgy with priests, musician, and maybe a couple of others on Sunday morning and post it on YouTube. We'll also do our remaining midweek Lenten studies on YouTube (but without the soup).

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 12:10:09 AM
This afternoon the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Northern California directed all churches to suspend worship and other meetings (with a few exceptions, like 12-Step groups) for the immediate future. The Diocese of California had taken the same action earlier today.

I believe what the Sierra Pacific ELCA synod bishop has said is "I support whatever you decide to do in your local context."

Our plan at present is to do a liturgy with priests, musician, and maybe a couple of others on Sunday morning and post it on YouTube. We'll also do our remaining midweek Lenten studies on YouTube (but without the soup).

Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 13, 2020, 12:19:53 AM
It looks like our parochial school will be closed for a month, so we have to figure out e-learning and other alternatives. The governor’s recommendations were to suspend any gatherings of 250 or more, including worship services, but none of our services typically get that many people, so we have no plans as of yet to change our worship schedule. Probably will have to come with an alternate plan for Easter. Possibly more services with fewer people at them.

We will send out the regular Friday news email with instructions for those who feel unsafe or who may be particularly at risk to stay home, and we will bring communion where needed. People can watch Worship Anew (which our choir recently went to Ft. Wayne to make recordings for) or watch our sermons later on Facebook or the website.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 13, 2020, 12:39:00 AM
Pastor Bohler:
Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?
Me:
Actually, yes. At least if you’re talking about something that is likely to keep a sick, troubled person alive for another day. Or to keep that person from starting down a very dangerous and potentially fatal road.
I am meeting this week with some people who might need to find an alternate place for their A.A. meeting. They will meet. Whether they will meet in the church where they usually meet may be up for grabs, but they will meet. Some, especially those new to the program, need their daily meetings.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 13, 2020, 12:39:42 AM
This afternoon the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Northern California directed all churches to suspend worship and other meetings (with a few exceptions, like 12-Step groups) for the immediate future. The Diocese of California had taken the same action earlier today.

I believe what the Sierra Pacific ELCA synod bishop has said is "I support whatever you decide to do in your local context."

Our plan at present is to do a liturgy with priests, musician, and maybe a couple of others on Sunday morning and post it on YouTube. We'll also do our remaining midweek Lenten studies on YouTube (but without the soup).

Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?

Apparently. I wonder if we're supposed to do funerals?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 13, 2020, 02:21:46 AM
This afternoon the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Northern California directed all churches to suspend worship and other meetings (with a few exceptions, like 12-Step groups) for the immediate future. The Diocese of California had taken the same action earlier today.

I believe what the Sierra Pacific ELCA synod bishop has said is "I support whatever you decide to do in your local context."

Our plan at present is to do a liturgy with priests, musician, and maybe a couple of others on Sunday morning and post it on YouTube. We'll also do our remaining midweek Lenten studies on YouTube (but without the soup).

Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?

Apparently. I wonder if we're supposed to do funerals?


I have a wedding coming up. It's a small one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 04:39:26 AM
This afternoon the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Northern California directed all churches to suspend worship and other meetings (with a few exceptions, like 12-Step groups) for the immediate future. The Diocese of California had taken the same action earlier today.

I believe what the Sierra Pacific ELCA synod bishop has said is "I support whatever you decide to do in your local context."

Our plan at present is to do a liturgy with priests, musician, and maybe a couple of others on Sunday morning and post it on YouTube. We'll also do our remaining midweek Lenten studies on YouTube (but without the soup).

Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?

Apparently. I wonder if we're supposed to do funerals?

My wife told me that a funeral here has been postponed (well, she said cancelled -- I asked why, is he not dead?) due to the corona virus concerns.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 04:42:02 AM
Pastor Bohler:
Interesting.  12-Step is necessary but worship is not?
Me:
Actually, yes. At least if you’re talking about something that is likely to keep a sick, troubled person alive for another day. Or to keep that person from starting down a very dangerous and potentially fatal road.
I am meeting this week with some people who might need to find an alternate place for their A.A. meeting. They will meet. Whether they will meet in the church where they usually meet may be up for grabs, but they will meet. Some, especially those new to the program, need their daily meetings.

You mean someone will literally die if they miss a meeting?  But no one has a similar need for worship, the Word of God, the Lord's Supper?  That woud be a sad commentary on the churches you frequent, but then, you know them better than I....
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 13, 2020, 05:34:56 AM
Pastor Bohler:
You mean someone will literally die if they miss a meeting?  But no one has a similar need for worship, the Word of God, the Lord's Supper?  That woud be a sad commentary on the churches you frequent, but then, you know them better than I....
Me:
I mean that, yes, for people in recovery - especially those facing difficulties or new in recovery -  one day without the full support of the program and the people in it could be the day that they pick up a drink, the drink that could take them deeper into the potentially fatal disease. We saw some of this in the chaos following 9/11. You probably didn’t.
I am not going to “lose my faith” if I face a period of time without corporate worship. I do not believe God will kill me if I am without the sacrament for some time.
A person in recovery can lose their sobriety if they do not have the fullness of their recovery program. And the disease can kill them. I have seen it happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 13, 2020, 08:36:51 AM
This is not the time to be playing off 12 step meetings against gathering for worship.  As anyone knows who has been in recovery from alcoholism or around people who are recovering and in groups, those groups and the individual sponsor are lifelines. 

As anyone knows who has preached the Gospel, given absolution, consecrated and distributed the Sacrament, been in a vital and dynamic assembly of believers, those are all lifelines, and we could add, eternal lifelines.

There are and will be discouragements from gathering for worship in this period of time.  Most of the fellowships represented on this board do not make it to the level of mass gatherings of 500 or more people.  That doesn't mean there is no danger connected to our smaller gatherings.  But I would state that those of us who are shepherds of a flock will gather whoever assembles and bring hope and comfort to them.  Further, we will find other ways to stay connected to them, and to calm troubled hearts with the assurances given to us from Scripture, and given to us in the relationships we treasure among our friends, family and fellow believers locally.  Lifelines will be thrown, because we will continue to "cast all our care upon God, because He cares for us."

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 09:56:10 AM
Pastor Bohler:
You mean someone will literally die if they miss a meeting?  But no one has a similar need for worship, the Word of God, the Lord's Supper?  That woud be a sad commentary on the churches you frequent, but then, you know them better than I....
Me:
I mean that, yes, for people in recovery - especially those facing difficulties or new in recovery -  one day without the full support of the program and the people in it could be the day that they pick up a drink, the drink that could take them deeper into the potentially fatal disease. We saw some of this in the chaos following 9/11. You probably didn’t.
I am not going to “lose my faith” if I face a period of time without corporate worship. I do not believe God will kill me if I am without the sacrament for some time.
A person in recovery can lose their sobriety if they do not have the fullness of their recovery program. And the disease can kill them. I have seen it happen.

You say YOU will not lose your faith if you miss corporate worship for a while.  OK.  And I will not die if I miss 12-Step programs for a while.  So what?  Oh, you say, there are possibly SOME who will suffer so if they miss a day without the support of a 12-Step Program.  And, I counter, do you think there are none whose faith will not suffer similarly if they are forced to be without worship, preaching, and the Supper for an extended period of time?  Do you so little value what God does for us there?

Bottom line: it appears that some in the Church (including the aforesaid bishop and you) who see a 12-Step program as more vital and necessary than corporate worship.  And that is extremely sad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 09:58:47 AM
This is not the time to be playing off 12 step meetings against gathering for worship.  As anyone knows who has been in recovery from alcoholism or around people who are recovering and in groups, those groups and the individual sponsor are lifelines. 

As anyone knows who has preached the Gospel, given absolution, consecrated and distributed the Sacrament, been in a vital and dynamic assembly of believers, those are all lifelines, and we could add, eternal lifelines.

There are and will be discouragements from gathering for worship in this period of time.  Most of the fellowships represented on this board do not make it to the level of mass gatherings of 500 or more people.  That doesn't mean there is no danger connected to our smaller gatherings.  But I would state that those of us who are shepherds of a flock will gather whoever assembles and bring hope and comfort to them.  Further, we will find other ways to stay connected to them, and to calm troubled hearts with the assurances given to us from Scripture, and given to us in the relationships we treasure among our friends, family and fellow believers locally.  Lifelines will be thrown, because we will continue to "cast all our care upon God, because He cares for us."

Dave Benke

I agree with this, except that I would change "and we could add" in your second paragraph to "and we should add".
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 13, 2020, 10:29:22 AM
Got an email (http://pardot.ctsfw.edu/webmail/729523/47865538/21689acc5dc1c748094d0292686db9e949e9910e3d5795e74132744853cdd499) from CTS, Fort Wayne, the President Rast. Spring quarter begins next Monday, but for two weeks all classes will be held on line, daily chapel canceled and library resources pertaining to the class work available on line. At the end of that period further determination will be made as to returning to classes as normal or extending the suspensions as conditions warrant. So far there are no known cases of Covid-19 among the campus community but as the phrase goes, "out of an abundance of caution."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 13, 2020, 10:33:57 AM
This is not the time to be playing off 12 step meetings against gathering for worship.  As anyone knows who has been in recovery from alcoholism or around people who are recovering and in groups, those groups and the individual sponsor are lifelines. 

As anyone knows who has preached the Gospel, given absolution, consecrated and distributed the Sacrament, been in a vital and dynamic assembly of believers, those are all lifelines, and we could add, eternal lifelines.

There are and will be discouragements from gathering for worship in this period of time.  Most of the fellowships represented on this board do not make it to the level of mass gatherings of 500 or more people.  That doesn't mean there is no danger connected to our smaller gatherings.  But I would state that those of us who are shepherds of a flock will gather whoever assembles and bring hope and comfort to them.  Further, we will find other ways to stay connected to them, and to calm troubled hearts with the assurances given to us from Scripture, and given to us in the relationships we treasure among our friends, family and fellow believers locally.  Lifelines will be thrown, because we will continue to "cast all our care upon God, because He cares for us."

Dave Benke

I agree with this, except that I would change "and we could add" in your second paragraph to "and we should add".

We would all do well to read (or reread) Luther's 1527 letter to Pastor Huss of Breslau
"Whether One May Flee from a Deadly Plague".

Luther's Works Volume 43 pages 119-138.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 13, 2020, 10:36:19 AM
Do whatever you want to do, Pastor Bohler.
Believe whatever you want to believe.
Ignore or dismiss the concerns of others if you wish.
Hang on tightly to your favorite concepts.
My advice to others in this modest forum: if you have an AA meeting in your church, do not prevent them from meeting during these difficult times.

As for worship: I would not cancel services under these circumstances. I would lead worship for whoever shows up, certainly taking some additional precautions against contact, contagion and/or infection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Norman Teigen on March 13, 2020, 11:41:17 AM
Yes, Pastor Shelley, excellent suggestion.  Christians owe themselves and their families love, protection, and care and may not abandon them.  Pastors are pledged to care for the parishioners .  People need to follow the best medical advice (which advice was non-existent in Luther's Day). Interestingly, Luther says that it would be nice if the time would ever come where people would not have to tend the sick in their homes, but that there would be public hospitals run by the government.    Luther had part of the problem right.    Plague is related to filth and Wittenberg was a filthy town.  Luther thought cemeteries should be placed outside of the city's limits. He thought that illness could result from the miasmic odors from dead bodies.  Luther didn't know science or medicine but he did provide sound  guidance for all:  We should fear,  love, and trust in God above all things,.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 11:57:34 AM
Do whatever you want to do, Pastor Bohler.
Believe whatever you want to believe.
Ignore or dismiss the concerns of others if you wish.
Hang on tightly to your favorite concepts.
My advice to others in this modest forum: if you have an AA meeting in your church, do not prevent them from meeting during these difficult times.

As for worship: I would not cancel services under these circumstances. I would lead worship for whoever shows up, certainly taking some additional precautions against contact, contagion and/or infection.

That’s mighty nice of you, to “let” me believe and act accordingly.  I suppose I ought to give you thanks for your generosity.  But, in the end, I see you come down where I already was.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 13, 2020, 02:18:42 PM
Pastor Bohler:
You mean someone will literally die if they miss a meeting?  But no one has a similar need for worship, the Word of God, the Lord's Supper?  That woud be a sad commentary on the churches you frequent, but then, you know them better than I....
Me:
I mean that, yes, for people in recovery - especially those facing difficulties or new in recovery -  one day without the full support of the program and the people in it could be the day that they pick up a drink, the drink that could take them deeper into the potentially fatal disease. We saw some of this in the chaos following 9/11. You probably didn’t.
I am not going to “lose my faith” if I face a period of time without corporate worship. I do not believe God will kill me if I am without the sacrament for some time.
A person in recovery can lose their sobriety if they do not have the fullness of their recovery program. And the disease can kill them. I have seen it happen.

You say YOU will not lose your faith if you miss corporate worship for a while.  OK.  And I will not die if I miss 12-Step programs for a while.  So what?  Oh, you say, there are possibly SOME who will suffer so if they miss a day without the support of a 12-Step Program.  And, I counter, do you think there are none whose faith will not suffer similarly if they are forced to be without worship, preaching, and the Supper for an extended period of time?  Do you so little value what God does for us there?

Bottom line: it appears that some in the Church (including the aforesaid bishop and you) who see a 12-Step program as more vital and necessary than corporate worship.  And that is extremely sad.


One can receive a worship service through streaming. A female clergy (on leave from call) I know was ordered by her doctor to stay home with her new-born for health reasons. She sought out a Lutheran worship that was streamed so she could participate, to some extent, in a worship while she was quarantined.


For at least two reasons, it's not feasible to stream an AA meeting. The second "A" is one reason. Another reason is: these groups do not have income. They don't have the funds to buy the equipment needed to do streaming. Congregations receive funds to operate.


I would hope that should a recovering alcoholic need their sponsor, a phone call would bring the help that was needed - just like parishioners having a crisis in faith should call their pastor who should bring help.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Norman Teigen on March 13, 2020, 02:30:56 PM
This announcement from my church, Normandale Lutheran

Dear people of the Normandale Lutheran Church Community,

As news about the spread of COVID-19 continues to develop, we find ourselves in a most unique time, and in the middle of a conversation that has not been required of pastors and church leaders within my lifetime, which makes this all seem a bit surreal. But now, it’s time to act together through social distancing. It’s time to respond with a powerful collective decision, and for people across the country to join in a unified response to this outbreak, so that we will minimize suffering, responding together in a way that displays our deepest understanding of our life’s calling—namely, to love God and care for our neighbors.

It may feel a bit like we’re building an ark on a sunny day, but we know that rain is coming.
In short, here’s our plan moving forward, along with what you can do.

Following recommendations from the Global Health Network and the Center for Disease Control, we—along with other congregations—will suspend our in-person worship gatherings until at least March 29th. We will provide an online worshiping experience on Sunday mornings at 9:30 a.m. and Wednesday evenings at 7:00 p.m. You can find our worship on our website (normluth.org\livestream) and we hope you will continue to join us for corporate, virtual worship.
We will be suspending all weekly activity. This truly means all weekly activity that happens in our building, as we maintain social distance for the next couple weeks.
If you are in need of pastoral care during this time, please email Pastor Paul Pettersen at paul@normluth.org, or call him directly at (612) 703-2390.
Please pray, pray, pray! Pray for families around the globe who are already suffering. Pray for those who have lost loved ones. Pray for those lying in crowded hospitals awaiting diagnosis or treatment. Pray for those without access to medical care and who need help. Pray for public leaders making important decisions on behalf of the people they serve. Pray for elders who are frightened within their care communities. Pray for medical workers, who put themselves in harm’s way as they care for and tend the sick. Pray for our congregation, as we adapt to a new way of being together during this time.
Keep your eye on communications from our congregation, both on website and email, along with our Facebook and Twitter pages, as we learn and share more.
Take responsibility for your daily behaviors, so that public health will be restored.
And finally, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, let’s use this unique time to become more creative about community. Reach out to one another! Call those who live alone to offer assurance of presence. Send email notes and text messages of encouragement to those God puts on your heart. Social distancing does not need to mean isolation throughout these weeks!

As St. Paul wrote to the Philippian Christians, “Rejoice in the Lord always, again I will say rejoice. Let your gentleness be known to everyone. The Lord is near. Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made know to God. And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

You are not alone! We are not alone. God is near! And may God act quickly to restore health to the people of God’s planet earth, and may we remain faithful in times like this.

To God be the glory now and always, and the peace of our Savior, Jesus Christ, be yours! 

+Pastors Paul, Rebecca, and Ian
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 03:52:56 PM
Pastor Bohler:
You mean someone will literally die if they miss a meeting?  But no one has a similar need for worship, the Word of God, the Lord's Supper?  That woud be a sad commentary on the churches you frequent, but then, you know them better than I....
Me:
I mean that, yes, for people in recovery - especially those facing difficulties or new in recovery -  one day without the full support of the program and the people in it could be the day that they pick up a drink, the drink that could take them deeper into the potentially fatal disease. We saw some of this in the chaos following 9/11. You probably didn’t.
I am not going to “lose my faith” if I face a period of time without corporate worship. I do not believe God will kill me if I am without the sacrament for some time.
A person in recovery can lose their sobriety if they do not have the fullness of their recovery program. And the disease can kill them. I have seen it happen.

You say YOU will not lose your faith if you miss corporate worship for a while.  OK.  And I will not die if I miss 12-Step programs for a while.  So what?  Oh, you say, there are possibly SOME who will suffer so if they miss a day without the support of a 12-Step Program.  And, I counter, do you think there are none whose faith will not suffer similarly if they are forced to be without worship, preaching, and the Supper for an extended period of time?  Do you so little value what God does for us there?

Bottom line: it appears that some in the Church (including the aforesaid bishop and you) who see a 12-Step program as more vital and necessary than corporate worship.  And that is extremely sad.


One can receive a worship service through streaming. A female clergy (on leave from call) I know was ordered by her doctor to stay home with her new-born for health reasons. She sought out a Lutheran worship that was streamed so she could participate, to some extent, in a worship while she was quarantined.


For at least two reasons, it's not feasible to stream an AA meeting. The second "A" is one reason. Another reason is: these groups do not have income. They don't have the funds to buy the equipment needed to do streaming. Congregations receive funds to operate.


I would hope that should a recovering alcoholic need their sponsor, a phone call would bring the help that was needed - just like parishioners having a crisis in faith should call their pastor who should bring help.

One could also conduct an AA meeting via streaming.  Audio only, for instance.  As for cost, I am sure funding could be obtained somewhere. Or perhaps those streaming-only churches could just let them borrow their facilities and equipment.  After all, it IS a matter of life or death!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 13, 2020, 05:51:44 PM
...love those Italians!   :D

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q734VN0N7hw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 13, 2020, 05:56:13 PM
Pastor Bohler writes:
One could also conduct an AA meeting via streaming.  Audio only, for instance.  As for cost, I am sure funding could be obtained somewhere.
I comment:
Brzzzz! Wrong again.
And it is a cardinal tenet of AA that groups do not get "funding" from anywhere. They must be totally self-supporting.
I repeat: If your church hosts an AA meeting, let them keep meeting. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 13, 2020, 06:08:28 PM
Pastor Bohler writes:
One could also conduct an AA meeting via streaming.  Audio only, for instance.  As for cost, I am sure funding could be obtained somewhere.
I comment:
Brzzzz! Wrong again.
And it is a cardinal tenet of AA that groups do not get "funding" from anywhere. They must be totally self-supporting.
I repeat: If your church hosts an AA meeting, let them keep meeting.
I agree, and we are. But why not apply the same reasoning to worship? Why is resisting addiction more important than the spiritual things involved in a church service? How set on earthly things and the health of the body can the church become before it isn’t the church?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 13, 2020, 06:37:33 PM
I would not cancel worship this Sunday.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 13, 2020, 08:14:22 PM
I would not cancel worship this Sunday.

Especially since President Trump has asked that Sunday be a National Day of Prayer.

We will be open, we will follow the directives of the Eparchal Synod of the Greek Archdiocese, we will pray the Great Ektania "for all civil authorities" and "for the sick and suffering, captives and their salvation", and most importantly we will offer the all-Holy Body and Precious Blood of Christ for the faithful (who choose so) to receive.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 13, 2020, 09:09:06 PM
From President Harrison and the LCMS: https://blogs.lcms.org/2020/resource-helps-congregations-plan-for-widespread-illnesses/
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 13, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
And this from NALC Bp. Dan Selbo:

https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc (https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dana Lockhart on March 14, 2020, 12:09:35 AM
I would not cancel worship this Sunday.

That's a really easy thing to say when it's not your call to make.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dana Lockhart on March 14, 2020, 12:15:55 AM

[/quote]
But why not apply the same reasoning to worship? Why is resisting addiction more important than the spiritual things involved in a church service? How set on earthly things and the health of the body can the church become before it isn’t the church?
[/quote]

Of the top of my head, I could give you 20 reasons why my parish opted to move worship online while also continuing to allow AA, Al-Anon, NA, etc to hold meetings in our building. So when you asked this, what were you looking for? Dialogue?

Or are you asking questions for the sake of scoring rhetorical points?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 14, 2020, 07:36:46 AM
https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/   An informative article.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions and their resultant regulatory regimes. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 14, 2020, 08:29:31 AM
In terms of communication, NYC has a text methodology for receiving up-to-date information.  Text 692-692 and subject COVID to receive the latest information.  What I like about it is that it is first hand rather than second or third hand info.

The ELCA and LCMS bishops have been very active in bringing prayer, thought and resource to bear for pastors and churches.  Bp. Egensteiner has advised that congregations forego regular worship services in his latest missives.  Bp./President Lecakes has not gone that far, and sent us this video yesterday:  https://vimeo.com/397330079. 

Additionally, our District Task Force on disaster response has been meeting via skype on a daily basis and the bishop met via skype with pastors yesterday to present information and options.  These are exemplary approaches from leadership.  I have seen five or six presentations by presidents of other districts that are similar.  In the center of the storm, spiritual leaders giving encouragement and accurate information assists those of us "on the ground" in congregations as we minister directly to folks who are both highly anxious and have specific needs.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 14, 2020, 09:13:40 AM

But why not apply the same reasoning to worship? Why is resisting addiction more important than the spiritual things involved in a church service? How set on earthly things and the health of the body can the church become before it isn’t the church?
[/quote]

Of the top of my head, I could give you 20 reasons why my parish opted to move worship online while also continuing to allow AA, Al-Anon, NA, etc to hold meetings in our building. So when you asked this, what were you looking for? Dialogue?

Or are you asking questions for the sake of scoring rhetorical points?
[/quote]

Perhaps you could share some of those reasons. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 14, 2020, 10:55:18 AM
And this from NALC Bp. Dan Selbo:

https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc (https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc)
I think that hits the right tone. We live with concern for others, but not fear. In that light, I think it makes perfect sense to continue having worship while encouraging those who would rather not come for health reasons to remain in contact and offer in home communion to them.

Canceling services sends a signal. Yes, it says that we’re taking this outbreak seriously and people’s health matters. But that isn’t the only signal it sends, and we don’t get to determine for people what general impression cancelling church makes in  their overall view of things, even subconsciously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 14, 2020, 12:30:16 PM
Unfortunately, both Lutheran churches I attend here have canceled everything, including worship, until the end of March. One church is live streaming an online worship service, without worshipers present of course, and the other church is likely to do that but just hasn’t announced it yet.
As noted upstream, I don’t approve of this. I would offer a service, with extra precautions in place, and hold it for whoever came. We could do it maintaining “social distance”, and with no touching.* Certain sanitary measures would, I believe, make receiving holy Communion safe.
I might send a message to The Pastors and congregation councils, but I’m not sure I want to trouble them at a time of difficult decision making.


*I’m a Swede, and while we might, at extreme times, hug a family member; mostly we do not approve of touching another person unless you  were going to actually have sex.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 14, 2020, 12:38:54 PM
Is worship something that can be moved online? To a degree the Service of the Word can, of course, but not the service of the Sacrament. One cannot be e-baptized or take e-communion. Incarnational theology requires the actual real presence of our bodies for the real presence of Christ's body to accomplish His purposes. That's why shut-ins who can watch Worship Anew still need to be visited with communion.

At the very least, though, holding the services without the congregation present and live-streaming them is a better solution than cancelling the services altogether. But then you run into issues of clericalism, private masses, etc.

I once cancelled church due to a blizzard when a state of emergency had been declared, and the police had closed all the roads. I walked to church early, then called the organist and secretary and cancelled, which set up a mass email and phone tree about an hour before the service. Then I got a ride in a snow plow most of the way back home (about 1.5 miles). I suppose if the state of Indiana goes on lock-down such that it would be illegal for people to come to church, we'd still do services online for a time. But then we also wouldn't be hosting AA meetings or any other groups.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 14, 2020, 12:40:05 PM
Unfortunately, both Lutheran churches I attend here have canceled everything, including worship, until the end of March. One church is live streaming an online worship service, without worshipers present of course, and the other church is likely to do that but just hasn’t announced it yet.
As noted upstream, I don’t approve of this. I would offer a service, with extra precautions in place, and hold it for whoever came. We could do it maintaining “social distance”, and with no touching.* Certain sanitary measures would, I believe, make receiving holy Communion safe.
I might send a message to The Pastors and congregation councils, but I’m not sure I want to trouble them at a time of difficult decision making.


*I’m a Swede, and while we might, at extreme times, hug a family member; mostly we do not approve of touching another person unless you  were going to actually have sex.
I agree with this entirely, including the part about not troubling them now. Maybe bring it up at a fall Bible study when the topic seems appropriate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 14, 2020, 12:56:18 PM
And this from NALC Bp. Dan Selbo:

https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc (https://thenalc.org/projects/pastoral-letter-on-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0aZCqwaoWgrjNg2hbiqCo6syLRJxtHEqFM1mK22LNQFgO79R7N7LMFSFc)
I think that hits the right tone. We live with concern for others, but not fear. In that light, I think it makes perfect sense to continue having worship while encouraging those who would rather not come for health reasons to remain in contact and offer in home communion to them.

Canceling services sends a signal. Yes, it says that we’re taking this outbreak seriously and people’s health matters. But that isn’t the only signal it sends, and we don’t get to determine for people what general impression cancelling church makes in  their overall view of things, even subconsciously.

I agree entirely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 14, 2020, 01:00:31 PM
Is worship something that can be moved online? To a degree the Service of the Word can, of course, but not the service of the Sacrament. One cannot be e-baptized or take e-communion. Incarnational theology requires the actual real presence of our bodies for the real presence of Christ's body to accomplish His purposes. That's why shut-ins who can watch Worship Anew still need to be visited with communion.

At the very least, though, holding the services without the congregation present and live-streaming them is a better solution than cancelling the services altogether. But then you run into issues of clericalism, private masses, etc.

I once cancelled church due to a blizzard when a state of emergency had been declared, and the police had closed all the roads. I walked to church early, then called the organist and secretary and cancelled, which set up a mass email and phone tree about an hour before the service. Then I got a ride in a snow plow most of the way back home (about 1.5 miles). I suppose if the state of Indiana goes on lock-down such that it would be illegal for people to come to church, we'd still do services online for a time. But then we also wouldn't be hosting AA meetings or any other groups.

We have many people in this particular wrestling match, and the signals sent are important to us.  We will have both our live streaming and our in person modes in force tomorrow, and will offer the Eucharist as well as other forms of healing medicine and directives to divine and communal comfort.  The Atlantic District will be sending links for those who don't attend worship to all the congregational sites among us, so people can connect to a live fellowship for Word and prayer. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 14, 2020, 01:03:15 PM
Crowd psychology is so interesting. We have not had a confirmed case in our county (two tested, both negative), but yesterday all schools in the county cancelled classes for the next four weeks, which really brings it home (and brings them home . . . when 75% of the kids of the school my wife taught in on free and reduced lunches). I ran out to the grocery store early this morning, about 8 a.m., when normally things would be pretty empty. Store was fairly crowded--not like the Monday before Thanksgiving, but certainly more than usual on an early Saturday morning. Could have something to do with a projected snowstorm this weekend, I suppose, rather than the virus. But what struck me was how quiet it was. None of the usual conversational noise when there are a lot of people shopping. Everyone quite sober.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 14, 2020, 01:08:34 PM
Is worship something that can be moved online? To a degree the Service of the Word can, of course, but not the service of the Sacrament.

That's the rub, isn't it? As the plan is developing at Emmanuel, I think what will happen is that the clergy will be there, the organist, an altar guild person, and maybe a couple of others. We'll do the liturgy as usual, and I think what we'll do is that those present will receive communion, and then the chalice will be extended toward the camera and the words will be spoken that we normally would speak if one is refraining from taking the wine: "The Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you unto everlasting life." Does that give the viewer the "benefit of the Sacrament"? I'm inclined to say "no," but I'm not sure I could make a cogent theological argument to defend that position.

Frank Senn posted an essay in which he urged that people in the video not commune, as it would stoke the sense of exclusion among those watching. Not sure I buy that either, though it is worth considering. One Episcopal bishop has suggested doing only the ante communion, moving directly from the offertory to concluding prayers. In other words, what many Lutherans typically do, though it is rare among Episcopalians.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 14, 2020, 01:17:28 PM
Redeemer in the Bronx (Dien Ashley Taylor, pastor) first announced that weekend liturgies (1 on Sat., 2 on Sun.) would be cancelled. Then changed to a great comprimise; here's the announcement:
_______________________
As promised, this is the second of many correspondences I shall send to you electronically.  Please continue to check your email box.  Check to make sure that our emails are not going to the "Promotions" folder in your mailbox and do what you can to alert people to this possibility.

As information about the novel coronavirus COVID-19 becomes available to local leaders and as President Trump has just asked that March 15, 2020 be a "National Day of Prayer" concerning the pandemic, our plans continue to evolve at Redeemer.

Tomorrow, Sunday, March 15, 2020 we shall offer the following opportunities to hear the Word of God and receive His Holy Supper:
8AM
9:30AM
11AM
All gatherings on Sunday, March 15 will be standing outside "in the open air" on our lawn as we hear about the account of how Jesus met a woman "in the open air" at a well of water two thousand years ago. 

There are no Sunday School classes scheduled for March 15.

We shall continue to adhere to the guidelines about physical distancing recommended by the Centers for Disease Control as we receive the gifts that defeat sickness, plague, pestilence, fear and death--the forgiving love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Please continue to watch your email box for more announcements as we continue to "be Church together" as "God's People Pray."

"Thy Kingdom come.  Thy will be done...."

Our Lord's blessings to you always!

Peace, hope, and love in Christ Jesus,
Pastor
_______________________

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 14, 2020, 01:19:42 PM
If I were home sick and watching, I would want the few people there to commune. We are one body by faith. In a sense, the church communes when anyone communes. Yes, watching someone else commune might make me feel the exclusion more keenly, but that’s a good thing, not something to be avoided.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 14, 2020, 01:36:27 PM
Now here's our latest complication. Just got an email from the rector reporting that his teenage daughter has a fever and cough. Probably not COVID-19, but no way to know before tomorrow. So he's thinking he shouldn't be involved in whatever we do, and the question is should we proceed with plans (and what would that look like), or just scrap it and direct people to other livestream services we know about.

My vote was to continue, and I offered to preach in his stead, but I'm seeming to be a little less cautious than the rest of them. I've argued that, after telling everyone what we were going to do, if we change it we have to explain why, which will just stoke the unease. Keep us in your prayers as we try to figure this out via email!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 14, 2020, 01:44:44 PM
In my idleness and age, I check several foreign news sites. I just saw this on the BBC and it made me aware of some aspects of the current problem which I hadn't figured out: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51840233 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51840233)
Quote
As the coronavirus spreads across the US, tens of millions of Americans may not seek medical help either because they are uninsured or undocumented. That puts everyone in society at greater risk.
. . . .
No US citizenship means no US health insurance.

Even the language of Barack Obama's Affordable Care Act makes it very clear that undocumented immigrants are excluded.
The article includes two actual examples.

Tomorrow at noon Mass I plan to ask my francophone African congregation, mostly immigrants, whether any of them experienced the Ebola outbreaks.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 14, 2020, 01:53:20 PM
From our synod bishop:


To Pastors, Deacons and Congregational Councils of the Grand Canyon Synod

Dear Church,

Having prayerfully considered our current situation with respect to COVID-19, in conversation with bishops from the wider church, and in light of  the quickly evolving nature of this pandemic, I am recommending that all ELCA congregations in the Grand Canyon Synod, regardless of location or number of congregants, suspend public worship gatherings, events and meetings beginning immediately until at least April 1, possibly longer.

Our church polity doesn’t permit me to issue a mandate, this recommendation comes at my strongest possible urging in light of all current available information. I trust you as congregational leaders – pastors, staff and Council – to consult with one another as you make decisions and implement plans in your particular context.

You have heard me say that we are better together for the sake of the Gospel, and the way we can be better together with our local communities, our nation and our world is to reduce all possible risk of transmission of this virus about which we still know relatively little and which can be lethal for our most vulnerable citizens. We must act in solidarity for the sake of the neighbor. To think “this doesn’t apply to me and my community” does not take seriously enough our responsibility to the neighbor under these circumstances. I realize that some congregations already have plans to still gather this coming Sunday: if so, please take maximum care to ensure the safety of those most susceptible to this illness.

Let me be clear: this time of social distancing – or better said, physical distancing – does NOT mean we are suspending being the church! On the contrary, this means is that we become church in new ways. It’s ironic but true that the best of who we are as church has always flourished under adversity. How will this moment invite us to reframe who and why and how we are as Christ’s Body for the life of the world?

Here are some steps to take during this period:

• Plan ways to foster spiritual life and a sense of community that don’t involve being in the same physical space. This may be an opportunity to deepen relationships as we reach out to each other more intentionally and as we engage in a pause from our relentless pace to reflect on God’s presence with us in Christ.

• Be creative in planning for virtual/home worship experiences. In lieu of a service of Holy Communion, help reintroduce people to varieties of a Service of the Word. Consider a Lenten focus on prayer, fasting and self-reflection. Start thinking about how to frame a Holy Week experience that people can experience in their homes or what an Easter experience might include if we are not able to gather together.

• Rostered leaders can consider ways to share devotions or sermons online or through enews options.

• Consider how to provide care for vulnerable members and neighbors. What can be done to be sure that we as the church are tending to the needs of those most impacted by this crisis?

• Imagine new ways to be church for the life of the world in your context in this moment. If our times of worship have always been about equipping the saints for their ministry, how do we now unleash that potential?

Here are some ways the Office of the Bishop will support you:

• We will invite the Deans to weekly conference check-in ZOOM meetings both to receive updates from every congregation and to help problem solve. A member of the Office of the Bishop staff will participate in each ZOOM.

We have a page on our website for resource sharing and idea exchanges, seeking to address particular issues as they arise.

• We may hold webinars to keep folks updated as this situation evolves.

In the midst of it all, we will care for one another, we will pray for one another, and we will be Christ’s Church.

May God grant us wisdom, and grant us courage for the facing of this hour,

In Christ,

The Rev. Deborah K. Hutterer, Bishop
Grand Canyon Synod of the ELCA
1819 E. Morten Ave. Ste 100A
Phoenix, AZ 85020
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 14, 2020, 02:12:44 PM

I hope and pray that this current Covid-19 outbreak may turn out to be something like the Y2K crisis at the turn of the millennia. Remember Y2K? The calendar turned over to 2000 and all the dire predictions of calamities failed to materialize. What many people didn't realize was that the threat of Y2K was very real. There was the potential for a real disaster. The reason that it turned out to be not much was because those in a position to do something about it, did so. They put in the time and effort to solve the disaster that was looming before it happened. Without those efforts, it could have been a disaster.


Obviously we did not have the same advance warning of Covid-19 and the disaster was already underway before the world took notice. And some of the remedies are only beginning to be prepared, these things take time. But in the US, at this time, Covid-19 is not a big problem. And hopefully all of the extreme measures being taken, the travel bans, cancelations of gatherings and events, and the like will stop it from becoming a greater disaster. It will spread, and more cases and deaths will happen, but perhaps it will not turn out to be the calamity in the US as it was in China or even Italy. If so, it will not be because it never was as big of a threat as people feared, but because the actions that were taken helped control it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 14, 2020, 02:26:50 PM
Is worship something that can be moved online? To a degree the Service of the Word can, of course, but not the service of the Sacrament.

That's the rub, isn't it? As the plan is developing at Emmanuel, I think what will happen is that the clergy will be there, the organist, an altar guild person, and maybe a couple of others. We'll do the liturgy as usual, and I think what we'll do is that those present will receive communion, and then the chalice will be extended toward the camera and the words will be spoken that we normally would speak if one is refraining from taking the wine: "The Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you unto everlasting life." Does that give the viewer the "benefit of the Sacrament"? I'm inclined to say "no," but I'm not sure I could make a cogent theological argument to defend that position.

Frank Senn posted an essay in which he urged that people in the video not commune, as it would stoke the sense of exclusion among those watching. Not sure I buy that either, though it is worth considering. One Episcopal bishop has suggested doing only the ante communion, moving directly from the offertory to concluding prayers. In other words, what many Lutherans typically do, though it is rare among Episcopalians.

I think this is a wonderful compromise.

I also think that the point of the liturgy, indeed, the point of the Christian life, is communion.  So I support the decision to allow those there to commune.  Those who are not there can rest easy in the knowledge that the very point of communion is that it is a communal act.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 14, 2020, 03:09:00 PM
Job 14:5--Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you [God], and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass …."

For those of us who take the Scripture to be the Word of God in its entirety, this seems to answer the worries people are having quite well.  You and I are going to die the appointed day--not before and not after.  So we'll be in worship tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 14, 2020, 03:57:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8g2nIul4dY
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 14, 2020, 04:01:50 PM
Is worship something that can be moved online? To a degree the Service of the Word can, of course, but not the service of the Sacrament.

That's the rub, isn't it? As the plan is developing at Emmanuel, I think what will happen is that the clergy will be there, the organist, an altar guild person, and maybe a couple of others. We'll do the liturgy as usual, and I think what we'll do is that those present will receive communion, and then the chalice will be extended toward the camera and the words will be spoken that we normally would speak if one is refraining from taking the wine: "The Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you unto everlasting life." Does that give the viewer the "benefit of the Sacrament"? I'm inclined to say "no," but I'm not sure I could make a cogent theological argument to defend that position.

Frank Senn posted an essay in which he urged that people in the video not commune, as it would stoke the sense of exclusion among those watching. Not sure I buy that either, though it is worth considering. One Episcopal bishop has suggested doing only the ante communion, moving directly from the offertory to concluding prayers. In other words, what many Lutherans typically do, though it is rare among Episcopalians.

I think this is a wonderful compromise.

I also think that the point of the liturgy, indeed, the point of the Christian life, is communion.  So I support the decision to allow those there to commune.  Those who are not there can rest easy in the knowledge that the very point of communion is that it is a communal act.

I appreciate these thoughts on the Eucharist and its celebration.  We have wrestled mightily at my parish with offering the Eucharist in one kind or with individual cups and how to distribute.  Communion is a communal act.  And it hurts people not to be in that community, from the expressions I receive from parishioners.  Nonetheless, we must make every effort to be community even when absent in the flesh, so to speak.  Our younger members put that concept out there very strongly this morning at a gathering.

My counsel to them was that this is really week one, or at most week one and a half.  What it will be in six weeks is not known.  I do notice the videos of the lockdown/quarantine in Rome, which is comparable to NYC.  Having been there, it's just stunning to see all that absence of humanity, the emptiness in the public squares.  As that takes place here in our cities, and I think of my own first, the need for other kinds of communication and contact from Christians is going to accelerate, because we are a communion of saints.  For now, we're meeting in person.  That may well change.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 14, 2020, 05:34:00 PM
The Archdiocese of New York has cancelled all Masses for this weekend.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Weedon on March 14, 2020, 05:40:38 PM
I break my long ALPB fast to share this prayer from Loehe’s Seed Grains for those who cannot orally receive the Eucharist this weekend:

My Savior, God and Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, thought of me in great love before His death in the Last Supper, and made a rich, good testament with me, a poor sinner, that I should remember Him. He ordered and made for me a testament, forgiveness of sins, confirmed and sealed this testament with His body, wounds, and blood, as He Himself says in the institution of this Sacrament and testament, and as the holy evangelists and apostles write. For as the Lord Jesus ate the last passover lamb with his 12 apostles on the day before His Passion, He spoke to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” Then He lifted His eyes toward heaven, to God His Father, took the bread in His holy hands, gave thanks, and gave it to His disciples, and said: “Take, eat. This is My body, which is given for you.” After the same manner also He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them and spoke: “Drink ye all of it. This is the cup of the New Testament in My blood, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.”

O Lord Jesus Christ, my God and my Savior, these are the noble, comforting words in which Thou Thyself dost witness to us the truth, that Thy body and Thy blood, which were given and shed for us, are truly here. I believe, O Lord, that Thy words are truth and that heaven and earth must pass away before Thy words would be false. O Lord God, preserve, increase, and strengthen in me faith, love and devotion toward Thee in this Sacrament, for in the form of bread and wine Thy holy body and Thy precious blood are present—the body which Thou gavest into death for me; the blood which Thou sheddest for the forgiveness of my sins. Thou offerest this body and blood to me, a poor sinner, out of love and grace as a true food, as a true drink of my soul, whereby it is most certainly obtains forgiveness of all sins, unification with Thee, and incorporation into Thy spiritual body and the communion of all saints; strength, comfort, and help in all temptation of the enemy; confirmation in love, in faith, and in hope; also preparation for the long road to an unknown land which standeth before me. O Lord, Thou hast known well that I am a poor sinner; but still Thou hast esteemed me so highly in this Thy last testament. Therefore I come, full of trust and desire, and because I cannot receive it today with my mouth, let me receive its sweet fruit spiritually into my soul, while other of my brethren go also bodily to Thine altar. I bessech Thee, my God and Savior, that Thou wouldst not shut me out of Thy Supper, but according to Thy merciful promise (John 6), wouldst feed me now with Thy holy body and wouldst give me to drink with Thy blood, so that I may receive Thee thus spiritually into my soul and all my sins may be forgiven me; and so that a living faith, love, and hope be raised up, strengthened and confirmed: so that Thou only mayest reign in me mightily, and I may remain steadfast in Thee with my whole mind and heart. I want also, my God and Lord, to believe fully in Thy holy words without doubt. And because Thou art present to forgive sins, and I appear before Thee poor and hungry for Thy mercy, Thou wilt give me, and I shall receive: no one can prevent this—the fruit of the Sacrament ought and shall be accomplished in me. For this be praise and glory unto Thee forever and ever. Amen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 14, 2020, 05:43:04 PM
In my idleness and age, I check several foreign news sites. I just saw this on the BBC and it made me aware of some aspects of the current problem which I hadn't figured out: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51840233 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51840233)
Quote
As the coronavirus spreads across the US, tens of millions of Americans may not seek medical help either because they are uninsured or undocumented. That puts everyone in society at greater risk.
. . . .
No US citizenship means no US health insurance.

Even the language of Barack Obama's Affordable Care Act makes it very clear that undocumented immigrants are excluded.
The article includes two actual examples.

Tomorrow at noon Mass I plan to ask my francophone African congregation, mostly immigrants, whether any of them experienced the Ebola outbreaks.

Peace,
Michael


Let us know what you hear.  I've got a couple pro bono clients from southern Africa, well away from the ebola ground zero.  They seem much more spooked by this outbreak than most of my friends and colleagues.  Their views of course may be atypical among people from their area.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 14, 2020, 05:50:56 PM
Job 14:5--Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you [God], and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass …."

For those of us who take the Scripture to be the Word of God in its entirety, this seems to answer the worries people are having quite well.  You and I are going to die the appointed day--not before and not after.  So we'll be in worship tomorrow morning.


The issue is not really about when I am going to die, but whether I do something that will cause suffering and possible death to another person. The precautions people are taking will not get rid of the virus, but will slow the spread of it so that the health care facilities are not overwhelmed with all the sick people at once.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 14, 2020, 06:12:53 PM
I appreciate these thoughts on the Eucharist and its celebration.  We have wrestled mightily at my parish with offering the Eucharist in one kind or with individual cups and how to distribute.  Communion is a communal act.  And it hurts people not to be in that community, from the expressions I receive from parishioners.  Nonetheless, we must make every effort to be community even when absent in the flesh, so to speak.  Our younger members put that concept out there very strongly this morning at a gathering. <emphasis added>

My counsel to them was that this is really week one, or at most week one and a half.  What it will be in six weeks is not known.  I do notice the videos of the lockdown/quarantine in Rome, which is comparable to NYC.  Having been there, it's just stunning to see all that absence of humanity, the emptiness in the public squares.  As that takes place here in our cities, and I think of my own first, the need for other kinds of communication and contact from Christians is going to accelerate, because we are a communion of saints.  For now, we're meeting in person.  That may well change.

Dave Benke
From the small catechism we read
"[size=78%]What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?[/size]That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation." <emphasis added>
There is no mention by Luther of the community aspect espoused above.  Communion is uniting us with our Lord and Savior to receive forgiveness of sins, life and salvation.  Community may be a small part ... But rather than focus on what may be lost (temporarily) it is better to focus on what cannot be lost from the sacrament ...namely forgiveness of sins, life and salvation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 14, 2020, 06:13:09 PM
I break my long ALPB fast to share this prayer from Loehe’s Seed Grains for those who cannot orally receive the Eucharist this weekend:

My Savior, God and Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, thought of me in great love before His death in the Last Supper, and made a rich, good testament with me, a poor sinner, that I should remember Him. He ordered and made for me a testament, forgiveness of sins, confirmed and sealed this testament with His body, wounds, and blood, as He Himself says in the institution of this Sacrament and testament, and as the holy evangelists and apostles write. For as the Lord Jesus ate the last passover lamb with his 12 apostles on the day before His Passion, He spoke to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” Then He lifted His eyes toward heaven, to God His Father, took the bread in His holy hands, gave thanks, and gave it to His disciples, and said: “Take, eat. This is My body, which is given for you.” After the same manner also He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them and spoke: “Drink ye all of it. This is the cup of the New Testament in My blood, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.”

O Lord Jesus Christ, my God and my Savior, these are the noble, comforting words in which Thou Thyself dost witness to us the truth, that Thy body and Thy blood, which were given and shed for us, are truly here. I believe, O Lord, that Thy words are truth and that heaven and earth must pass away before Thy words would be false. O Lord God, preserve, increase, and strengthen in me faith, love and devotion toward Thee in this Sacrament, for in the form of bread and wine Thy holy body and Thy precious blood are present—the body which Thou gavest into death for me; the blood which Thou sheddest for the forgiveness of my sins. Thou offerest this body and blood to me, a poor sinner, out of love and grace as a true food, as a true drink of my soul, whereby it is most certainly obtains forgiveness of all sins, unification with Thee, and incorporation into Thy spiritual body and the communion of all saints; strength, comfort, and help in all temptation of the enemy; confirmation in love, in faith, and in hope; also preparation for the long road to an unknown land which standeth before me. O Lord, Thou hast known well that I am a poor sinner; but still Thou hast esteemed me so highly in this Thy last testament. Therefore I come, full of trust and desire, and because I cannot receive it today with my mouth, let me receive its sweet fruit spiritually into my soul, while other of my brethren go also bodily to Thine altar. I bessech Thee, my God and Savior, that Thou wouldst not shut me out of Thy Supper, but according to Thy merciful promise (John 6), wouldst feed me now with Thy holy body and wouldst give me to drink with Thy blood, so that I may receive Thee thus spiritually into my soul and all my sins may be forgiven me; and so that a living faith, love, and hope be raised up, strengthened and confirmed: so that Thou only mayest reign in me mightily, and I may remain steadfast in Thee with my whole mind and heart. I want also, my God and Lord, to believe fully in Thy holy words without doubt. And because Thou art present to forgive sins, and I appear before Thee poor and hungry for Thy mercy, Thou wilt give me, and I shall receive: no one can prevent this—the fruit of the Sacrament ought and shall be accomplished in me. For this be praise and glory unto Thee forever and ever. Amen.
Will, thanks for posting this. I think captures perfectly the sense that people shouldn’t forgo the sacrament to avoid making the ones watching via live-stream feel their absence more keenly. That would be a good thing. But not should they feel abandoned by God.

And good to have a post from you after your fast.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 14, 2020, 06:21:08 PM
I'm just agreeing with Peter left and right today!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Linda on March 14, 2020, 06:49:37 PM
Pastor Weedon,  thank you for the post.

Linda
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 14, 2020, 08:08:40 PM
Job 14:5--Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you [God], and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass …."

For those of us who take the Scripture to be the Word of God in its entirety, this seems to answer the worries people are having quite well.  You and I are going to die the appointed day--not before and not after.  So we'll be in worship tomorrow morning.

God's sovereign decisions about our life expectancy is not limited to pastors or even Christians, Job was neither.  I can't make anyone die before the time set for them to do so.  I am frankly appalled by the number of churches that are cancelling worship services.  If only a very few come, the pastor/priest should be there to lead them and proclaim the Gospel.  Television just doesn't do the same thing, nor does streaming online.  We are not to cease to meet together and should believe God's Word in that as in all things.


The issue is not really about when I am going to die, but whether I do something that will cause suffering and possible death to another person. The precautions people are taking will not get rid of the virus, but will slow the spread of it so that the health care facilities are not overwhelmed with all the sick people at once.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 14, 2020, 08:09:49 PM
Yes to Will's post all the way.  Many denominations including the Archdiocese of New York are not conducting Mass/Divine Service tomorrow.  We will conduct the Divine Service and live-stream.  Our forgiven and forgiving community portion of the Divine Service, that is the service of the Sacrament, is dear to all in attendance, even - and this may sound strange to traditional Lutheran ears - to those who are not catechized to the level of receiving the Sacrament.  They come for a blessing, they share the Peace of the Lord, they participate in the prayers of the people, the offering and offertory, and they hold hands (not tomorrow) for the singing of the Lord's Prayer. 

So those live-streaming are left without touch, without touching/tasting/receiving the forgiveness and strength and common union found in the Sacrament.  But - they will celebrate that forgiveness and strength from afar for those who are receiving it, and treasure the opportunity to return to the flesh and blood fellowship of the saints at a future date.  To withhold the Sacrament because of those who are only able to watch on live-stream would disallow those folks the opportunity to celebrate the living fellowship as it takes place.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 14, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
Yes to Will's post all the way.  Many denominations including the Archdiocese of New York are not conducting Mass/Divine Service tomorrow.  We will conduct the Divine Service and live-stream.  Our forgiven and forgiving community portion of the Divine Service, that is the service of the Sacrament, is dear to all in attendance, even - and this may sound strange to traditional Lutheran ears - to those who are not catechized to the level of receiving the Sacrament.  They come for a blessing, they share the Peace of the Lord, they participate in the prayers of the people, the offering and offertory, and they hold hands (not tomorrow) for the singing of the Lord's Prayer. 

So those live-streaming are left without touch, without touching/tasting/receiving the forgiveness and strength and common union found in the Sacrament.  But - they will celebrate that forgiveness and strength from afar for those who are receiving it, and treasure the opportunity to return to the flesh and blood fellowship of the saints at a future date.  To withhold the Sacrament because of those who are only able to watch on live-stream would disallow those folks the opportunity to celebrate the living fellowship as it takes place.

Dave Benke

 :)  Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 14, 2020, 08:53:31 PM
Job 14:5--Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you [God], and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass …."

For those of us who take the Scripture to be the Word of God in its entirety, this seems to answer the worries people are having quite well.  You and I are going to die the appointed day--not before and not after.  So we'll be in worship tomorrow morning.

God's sovereign decisions about our life expectancy is not limited to pastors or even Christians, Job was neither.  I can't make anyone die before the time set for them to do so.  I am frankly appalled by the number of churches that are cancelling worship services.  If only a very few come, the pastor/priest should be there to lead them and proclaim the Gospel.  Television just doesn't do the same thing, nor does streaming online.  We are not to cease to meet together and should believe God's Word in that as in all things.


The issue is not really about when I am going to die, but whether I do something that will cause suffering and possible death to another person. The precautions people are taking will not get rid of the virus, but will slow the spread of it so that the health care facilities are not overwhelmed with all the sick people at once.

Job WAS a Christian: "I know that my Redeemer lives"!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 14, 2020, 08:55:31 PM
Yes to Will's post all the way.  Many denominations including the Archdiocese of New York are not conducting Mass/Divine Service tomorrow.  We will conduct the Divine Service and live-stream.  Our forgiven and forgiving community portion of the Divine Service, that is the service of the Sacrament, is dear to all in attendance, even - and this may sound strange to traditional Lutheran ears - to those who are not catechized to the level of receiving the Sacrament.  They come for a blessing, they share the Peace of the Lord, they participate in the prayers of the people, the offering and offertory, and they hold hands (not tomorrow) for the singing of the Lord's Prayer. 

So those live-streaming are left without touch, without touching/tasting/receiving the forgiveness and strength and common union found in the Sacrament.  But - they will celebrate that forgiveness and strength from afar for those who are receiving it, and treasure the opportunity to return to the flesh and blood fellowship of the saints at a future date.  To withhold the Sacrament because of those who are only able to watch on live-stream would disallow those folks the opportunity to celebrate the living fellowship as it takes place.

Dave Benke

Why would you think that such love for those not yet catechized would sound strange to traditional Lutheran ears?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 14, 2020, 09:07:07 PM
Great Vespers was well attended in the Antiochian parish this evening, typical for Great Lent but this seemed better than most Lents.

A great variety of "ages and stages", including two large families with elementary-age children.

At the close of the service most of the folks followed the usual custom of kissing both the blessing Cross and the Priest's hand, despite directions from the Archdiocese to suspend that practice temporarily.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 14, 2020, 09:14:10 PM
After a number of conversations and readings in various venues, I have changed my mind.
I now think it is a good idea  not to hold church services for a time during this particular part of the virus crisis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 15, 2020, 08:41:48 AM
As this is Sunday I thought it might be a nice time to be reminded of our need to also keep our national leaders in our prayers.  During times of unprecedented crises such leaders are under unusual amounts of stress.  May our gracious Lord have mercy on them and grant them strength and wisdom to carry out their vocations for the benefit of many.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: loschwitz on March 15, 2020, 10:12:41 AM
In 1793 Philadelphia was hit by a yellow fever epidemic that killed around 10% of the population of 50,000.   At that time there were more Lutherans in the city than any other denomination.  J.H.C . Hellmuth was pastor of the single congregation that worshipped in two buildings (St. Michael's and Zion).  He remained in the city throughout the epidemic which ran from August to November.  He kept a diary and letter wrote a pamphlet on the epidemic.   He recounts daily burials of five or six parishioners or more.  The weekly totals sometimes exceeded 100.  Services were not cancelled.  On at least two occasions he notes good attendance.  On September 29 he wrote "The sickness and death are all around us  Lord Jesus help us. Do not leave us alone."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 12:34:29 PM
With the public health situation as it is presently,  it may be a good time for the churches and pastors to emphasize repentance.  Isn’t  it timely that this pandemic comes during Lent?  And wasn’t it M. Luther who charged the churches within the Holy Roman Empire to pray and repent so God would turn away the Islamic threat to Europe via its imminent scourge through Vienna in 1529?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 15, 2020, 12:49:41 PM
Only if you want to declare that the pandemic is some kind of punishment from God. If you want to do that, go ahead.
Otherwise, prayers may be directed towards other concerns. Like those who may suffer. Like those without adequate medical care. Like those who are truly gravely Affected by this pandemic. Like those who care for them. And like those who are working on plans  to provide adequate care.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 12:59:27 PM
Well obviously one can choose to view this as one wishes.  It may or may not agree with God’s assessment.  Luther was of the opinion that in 1529 God had something to do with the imminent threat.

So you pray your way and I’ll pray mine. 

I urge the churches to continue to preach repentance and forgiveness.

God help us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 01:02:12 PM
Btw,  Islam retreated back to the Bosporus and Europe was spared.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 15, 2020, 01:57:32 PM
Btw,  Islam retreated back to the Bosporus and Europe was spared.


Was it because they saw a vision of God guarding Germany? And after 500 years, we still haven't gotten rid of Islamic terrorists. We hope to rid ourselves of the coronavirus in much less time than 500 years.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 15, 2020, 01:58:29 PM
My rector commented that if the coronavirus threat enables us to think and talk about death, it will be a good thing. That would embody repentance, I imagine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 15, 2020, 02:05:11 PM
Btw,  Islam retreated back to the Bosporus and Europe was spared.

Meanwhile, a quick report from the other bank of the Bosporus aka the Orthodox Church:

We followed the directives issued by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (removed books from pews, put up signs asking folks to refrain from venerating Icons through kissing, and making the Antiodoron self-serve, etc).

There were only about a third of the folks at Divine Liturgy as last week; but this time it would have been easier to have counted the number who did NOT Commune.

It was announced that, in addition to our usual Lenten weekday services of Great Compline on Mondays, PreSanctivied Divine Liturgy on Wednesdays, and Salutations on Fridays we will also begin serving the supplication service, the Paraklesis on Thursdays.

Lord of the Powers, be with us,
For in times of distress,
We have no other help but You:
Lord of the Powers, be with us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Weedon on March 15, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
St. Paul’s FB-live service from 7:45 this a.m., for those who could not attend service today. https://www.facebook.com/bill.weedon.9887/videos/203951570951955/
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 15, 2020, 02:22:14 PM
Here's St. Peter's from today - https://www.facebook.com/St.PetersLutheranBrooklyn/videos/234681917720528/.

We're going to have a song and prayer service streaming on Wednesdays at 7 during Lent, as our "normal" Lenten practice of journeying to our circuit parishes has been suspended.

In our part of the world, we have a lot of folks who can't get to church from our fellowship, and a lot of Caribbean folks from the various islands who tune in during the week.  We're going to move toward expanding our network because so many are unable to get to us in person.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 15, 2020, 02:22:30 PM
Rev. Austin, repentance is always the appropriate response to natural disasters.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 15, 2020, 02:27:30 PM
I am grateful that the Coronavirus Emergency measure has worked out and appears about to be enacted soon. This success has required the cooperation of normally competing forces (legislative, executive, Republican, & Democratic) and the expertise of diverse vocations (economic, medical, & political).

It's reassuring to know that we Americans can do it when we have to. I would like to see it more often but will take this one achievement gladly.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Birkholz on March 15, 2020, 02:30:43 PM
We've been streaming live on Facebook at Faith, Oak Lawn for a few years now, and I've had several inquiries from pastors as to how best to provide this service.

I'm also involved with an RSO that provides church services to area nursing homes.  We'll be recording a few services tomorrow to distribute electronically to the sites we serve.

I'm trying something new on Thursday evening, an online prayer vigil.  At times like these we would normally invite the community to come together for a time of prayer.  Since public gatherings are being discouraged, I'll be doing this online, streaming live from our church.  It will be an informal time of Bible Readings, Prayers, and Hymns.  Folks can provide requests in advance, and we'll try to field them live in the comments as well.

Here's the link, if anyone's interested.  Feel free to share:

https://www.facebook.com/events/2622841554489023/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/2622841554489023/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 03:47:48 PM
Btw,  Islam retreated back to the Bosporus and Europe was spared.


Was it because they saw a vision of God guarding Germany? And after 500 years, we still haven't gotten rid of Islamic terrorists. We hope to rid ourselves of the coronavirus in much less time than 500 years.

Luther exhorted the Church to pray to God to eliminate this threat from the HRE.  His appeal was to folks to repent of their sin and I suspect also come to receive the good news of the Christian Gospel.  The Papacy included.  Also btw, the Islamic threat was reduced significantly when their own Ottoman Empire was besieged by a plague.  Their own concerns were split into two.  Their retreat seemed to be because of divine intervention.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 03:50:25 PM
Rev. Austin, repentance is always the appropriate response to natural disasters.

However the enlightened members of the liberal church including some in the ELCA seem to be above that.   >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 03:51:04 PM
My rector commented that if the coronavirus threat enables us to think and talk about death, it will be a good thing. That would embody repentance, I imagine.

Bingo!   :D
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 15, 2020, 04:00:28 PM
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/03/the-british-approach-to-coronavirus.html


Interesting counterpoint. The Brits seems to think that letting healthy young people get the disease is a plus, not a minus, so they're doing the opposite of Italy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 15, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
We've been streaming live on Facebook at Faith, Oak Lawn for a few years now, and I've had several inquiries from pastors as to how best to provide this service.

I'm also involved with an RSO that provides church services to area nursing homes.  We'll be recording a few services tomorrow to distribute electronically to the sites we serve.

I'm trying something new on Thursday evening, an online prayer vigil.  At times like these we would normally invite the community to come together for a time of prayer.  Since public gatherings are being discouraged, I'll be doing this online, streaming live from our church.  It will be an informal time of Bible Readings, Prayers, and Hymns.  Folks can provide requests in advance, and we'll try to field them live in the comments as well.

Here's the link, if anyone's interested.  Feel free to share:

https://www.facebook.com/events/2622841554489023/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/2622841554489023/)

Way off topic:  When we lived in Oak Lawn in the 1960s, our family attended Trinity LC on Brandt Ave. and I went to Sward Elementary School.  Those are lovely memories for me.  (Also, I was born at St. Francis Hospital, Blue Island, IL.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 04:48:02 PM
If nothing else, this crisis has made online services more visible.  Thanks for the links!  But is it just me, or was the volume on the Facebook services low?  I had my speakers cranked and could hardly hear the pastor in Rev. Weedon's link, or Dr. Benke on his.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
Our services can be found at http://www.oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org/From-the-Pastor.html and then scrolling down the page.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 15, 2020, 05:48:30 PM
Our services can be found at http://www.oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org/From-the-Pastor.html and then scrolling down the page.

Good sermon, Steve!  Did you know that you have developed a Minnesota accent?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 15, 2020, 06:58:37 PM
While we had our regular Sunday Mass, we also did this Friday: https://youtu.be/chisPA2UdSU.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 15, 2020, 07:19:32 PM
From His Grace, Bishop Nicholas:

Question:
"Your Grace, what s your counsel for parishioners who might feel nervous about a common Spoon and common Cup?"

Answer by His Grace Bishop Nicholas:
"There is a “faith” answer and “practical” answer, in case the “faith” answer does not suffice for a given person.

The faith answer is that it is the Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself on the cross for our salvation.

Therefore, it can never harm us. Bacteria/viruses cannot possibly live in it and for this reason it cannot harm us. If it does harm us, the priest or the deacon, who consumes the Chalice at the end after everyone had received from it, would be sick first.

This has never happened in the past 2000+ years.

The practical answer is that the Chalice and the Spoon are gold or silver plated. Gold and silver have a natural property of killing bacteria/viruses.

As a matter of fact, for example, there are broad-spectrum antibiotic ointments that have silver as the main ingredient to kill bacteria/ viruses, like Silver Sulfadiazine cream.

If this is not enough, the Blood of Christ that is in the Chalice never ceases to be wine and wine has alcohol that kills bacteria/viruses.

In addition, hot water is added to the Chalice at the time of preparing it for Communion, which further kills bacteria/viruses.

The “faith” reason alone should be sufficient to convince us that Communion will never harm us. To the contrary, the Body and Blood of Christ help us, heal us, and save us."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 15, 2020, 07:21:46 PM
We came in under the 250 person limit at the late service, it felt like a full house. We presented Bibles to the 2nd graders who had gone through a little class with their parents as part of the service, and the preschoolers sang the prelude. I noticed a few people who normally the common cup of receive the wafer on the tongue opting for the less invasive choice, but for the most part things transpired as usual.

Got some requests from people who chose not to come to have live-streaming rather than delayed links to video, so we'll look into that this week.

It is a judgment call, I realize, to continue holding services, but one I stand by. But I also won't criticize people who make a different call. We've been going through I Corinthians in Sunday Adult Bible study, and it seems to me the least helpful thing in a situation like this is to second-guess or judge someone else's call unless it is clearly clouding the Gospel.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Likeness on March 15, 2020, 07:42:17 PM
To offer public worship services should be done in the context of the local parish.
It is not possible to have one guideline which applies to every congregation.

To have both public worship services as well as a live stream of the service meets
the needs of everyone. Obviously, extreme care should be taken when offering the
Sacrament of Holy Communion.  Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups
the preferred method of distribution.

God willing, the coronavirus will have a limited lifespan and our nation and world
can return to normal in 3 or 4 months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Weedon on March 15, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/large-events/mass-gatherings-ready-for-covid-19.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 07:53:04 PM
Our services can be found at http://www.oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org/From-the-Pastor.html and then scrolling down the page.

Good sermon, Steve!  Did you know that you have developed a Minnesota accent?

Well, I have lived here for 28 of my 58 years.  But I remain a Packer backer!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 07:54:11 PM
To offer public worship services should be done in the context of the local parish.
It is not possible to have one guideline which applies to every congregation.

To have both public worship services as well as a live stream of the service meets
the needs of everyone. Obviously, extreme care should be taken when offering the
Sacrament of Holy Communion.  Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups
the preferred method of distribution.

God willing, the coronavirus will have a limited lifespan and our nation and world
can return to normal in 3 or 4 months.

I believe studies have shown that the common cup actually has less germs than individual cups. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 15, 2020, 08:16:35 PM
  Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups
the preferred method of distribution.

Not so sure about that, unless people are bringing their individual cups from home. They've all been handled by someone, and if people are taking them out of trays, their fingers are likely touching nearby cups.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 15, 2020, 08:20:43 PM
BTW, one result of all this is a spike in my appreciation for the altar guild. We arrived this morning to find that nothing had been prepared (which we expected), but watching the deacon and I try to find all the things we needed (and remember all the things we needed) would have made for a funny YouTube video. We were pretty clueless. Of course the average Episcopalian altar guild probably has a more complex task than the average Lutheran one, but even so.  ;D
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 15, 2020, 08:42:02 PM
To offer public worship services should be done in the context of the local parish.
It is not possible to have one guideline which applies to every congregation.

To have both public worship services as well as a live stream of the service meets
the needs of everyone. Obviously, extreme care should be taken when offering the
Sacrament of Holy Communion.  Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups
the preferred method of distribution.

God willing, the coronavirus will have a limited lifespan and our nation and world
can return to normal in 3 or 4 months.

I believe studies have shown that the common cup actually has less germs than individual cups.

I remember reading one over ten years ago that reached that conclusion.  (And if I recall correctly, intinction was worse than individual cups.)  I've been hesitating to mention it because I can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 15, 2020, 08:51:03 PM
BTW, one result of all this is a spike in my appreciation for the altar guild. We arrived this morning to find that nothing had been prepared (which we expected), but watching the deacon and I try to find all the things we needed (and remember all the things we needed) would have made for a funny YouTube video. We were pretty clueless. Of course the average Episcopalian altar guild probably has a more complex task than the average Lutheran one, but even so.  ;D
Could you briefly describe how the Episcopalian Eucharist practice is more complex than the average Lutheran one.  Thanks
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 08:52:02 PM
Here's St. Peter's from today - https://www.facebook.com/St.PetersLutheranBrooklyn/videos/234681917720528/.

We're going to have a song and prayer service streaming on Wednesdays at 7 during Lent, as our "normal" Lenten practice of journeying to our circuit parishes has been suspended.

In our part of the world, we have a lot of folks who can't get to church from our fellowship, and a lot of Caribbean folks from the various islands who tune in during the week.  We're going to move toward expanding our network because so many are unable to get to us in person.

Dave Benke

Thank you for that sermon, Dr. Benke!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 15, 2020, 08:58:02 PM
St. Paul’s FB-live service from 7:45 this a.m., for those who could not attend service today. https://www.facebook.com/bill.weedon.9887/videos/203951570951955/

It took me a bit to get my speakers loud enough to hear the sermon, but it was worth it! 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 15, 2020, 09:57:27 PM
Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups the preferred method of distribution.


I believe studies have shown that the common cup actually has less germs than individual cups.

I remember reading one over ten years ago that reached that conclusion.  (And if I recall correctly, intinction was worse than individual cups.)  I've been hesitating to mention it because I can't find it anywhere.

Last week Pr. Marcus Zill's paper from 2001 was re-highlighted by Gottesdienst (https://www.gottesdienst.org/gottesblog/2020/3/12/no-poison-can-be-in-the-cup).  His section, "The Universal Witness of the Scientific Community," begins on page 17. 

https://www.lutheranliturgy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Chalice-Reconsidered-Rev-Marcus-T-Zill.pdf

I will grant that the cited studies are from before the 21st century.  But they remind me of something that kept coming up in my learning from the sciences, that much of what we "know" to be "scientific fact" is not, and scientists -- both within and outside of their specific fields -- are just as quick to pre-judge as anyone else.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 15, 2020, 10:00:53 PM
To offer public worship services should be done in the context of the local parish.
It is not possible to have one guideline which applies to every congregation.

To have both public worship services as well as a live stream of the service meets
the needs of everyone. Obviously, extreme care should be taken when offering the
Sacrament of Holy Communion.  Sanitary conditions would make the individual cups
the preferred method of distribution.

God willing, the coronavirus will have a limited lifespan and our nation and world
can return to normal in 3 or 4 months.
I believe studies have shown that the common cup actually has less germs than individual cups.
I remember reading one over ten years ago that reached that conclusion.  (And if I recall correctly, intinction was worse than individual cups.)  I've been hesitating to mention it because I can't find it anywhere.
Perhaps this article on Common Cup (https://www.ntnl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Common-Cup-CDC.pdf) usage is the article is the article you read ten years ago .... or this article from the The Journal of Infectious Diseases concerning the use of the Silver Common Cup (http://rechurch.org/resources/CommonCupBacteria.pdf).

Rev. Kevin Vogts (http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?action=profile;u=42995) has written on the Common Cup in the most most recent Trinity Tribune (http://www.trinitylcms.org/newsletter/2020/04-20TT.pdf).   


There will always be the irrational fear of the common cup ... despite the fact that the interaction of precious metals and the alcohol in the wine result in sanitizing properties ... neither the common or individual cup should be banned based on health information currently available ... though it appears the common cup properly administered is the safer option.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 15, 2020, 10:24:58 PM
Not to be alarmist, but late this afternoon the CDC revised its "mass gathering" threshold significantly DOWNWARD, from the 250 a few days ago to 50.

The CDC would like to restrict such gatherings for eight weeks.

The Mayor of the City of Pittsburgh wasted no time in making a decree.

The noose is being tightened, or, to use another well known metaphor, the water holding the frog just warmed another 20 degrees F.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 15, 2020, 11:18:34 PM
Not to be alarmist, but late this afternoon the CDC revised its "mass gathering" threshold significantly DOWNWARD, from the 250 a few days ago to 50.

The CDC would like to restrict such gatherings for eight weeks.

The Mayor of the City of Pittsburgh wasted no time in making a decree.

The noose is being tightened, or, to use another well known metaphor, the water holding the frog just warmed another 20 degrees F.
A  California Bay Area (https://www.lcos.org/) congregation cancelled their Sunday Divine Service (https://www.lcos.org/docs/NOTICE.pdf) because their Sunday attendance exceeded the 100 limit ... but will still conduct their two Wednesday Lenten services since neither service attendance is expected to exceed 100. Perhaps the solution to their Sunday Divine Service cancellation is an additional service with planned attendance (http://locator.lcms.org/nchurches_frm/c_detail.asp?C217723) split accordimgly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 16, 2020, 03:19:50 AM
Rev. Austin, repentance is always the appropriate response to natural disasters.


Repentance is always the appropriate response at the end of every day. Y'know, that daily baptism stuff in the Small Catechism.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 16, 2020, 09:39:07 AM
We have been getting mixed messages from Pres. Trump and his Covid-19 team. Trump has been more optimistic in his statements than our health care system is delivering.  Some of that may be to tamp down panic which is a real threat.


It would have been really helpful if the CDC and other government entities could have started a year ago getting us ready to combat this pandemic. They could have been stockpiling masks and other supplies and preparing a vaccine. So, is this an example of Trump's short sightedness and general incompetence? Well, it also hurt that we didn't know about this until 3 months ago but I suppose only Trump's incompetence prevented him from foreseeing this. ;) From what I've read a major holdup on testing was FDA and CDC rules that prevented  the use of testing not developed through official channels. Trumps fault? That's less clear. But by all means let's not let an opportunity to bash Trump go to waste. The most important thing in this crisis is to use it to blame Trump.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 16, 2020, 10:06:37 AM
It would have been really helpful if the CDC and other government entities could have started a year ago getting us ready to combat this pandemic.

A decade ago I attended at least two multi day training events sponsored by the PA Department of Health and the Pennsylvania State Police.

Pandemic Flu awareness and planning has been going on for a long time, but "Russian collusion" and Impeachment became the national pastime.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 16, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
This is what I searched out this morning, besides identifying that the 18 cases in Nebraska are all in 3 eastern border counties.

The significant factor it appears (besides the risk to older citizens) is the "Reproductive Number."  This is essentially the number of people who will likely get the disease by being in contact with someone who is currently incubating the disease themselves.  To be clear, most diseases like the flu and cold are contagious during the incubation periods, where symptoms are likely not present.  Think of it another way:  it is a measure of how contagious the disease is.

Here are some numbers:
Influenza A or B, RO=1.28
Swine flu (H1N1), RO=1.4-1.6
CoronaVirus, RO=4.1

This would be why schools and other public facilities are shutting down across the state and nation.

I post this only for information.  I will conclude by offering a statement made with our congregation here: 

Quote
STATEMENT ON THE CORONA VIRUS, 3-14-20

There has been a lot of misinformation and downright panic regarding the Corona virus of late. While it is a serious threat, especially to our older and more vulnerable members with compromised immune systems, the highly conflicting information out there doesn't give a clear picture of the real nature of the potential threat. We've been taking precautions in church since the beginning of the year to prevent the spread of the flu, and such measures will continue. As the situation changes day by day, we will continue to monitor and evaluate the need to increase our safety measures.

In essence, continue to use the common sense that this congregation and it's members all share. If you think you've been exposed to anything or are sick, by all means, stay at home and participate with the live stream. If you are concerned due to your own underlying health issues, by all means do the same. We will continue to limit contact in church, but will also continue with our regular services until we must do otherwise. And above all, as the pastor, I will be paying very close attention to my own health, so as not to inadvertently cause the spread of any sort of disease.

Above all, we do not want to give in to fear. Fear is Satan's greatest weapon against us, and no matter what the outcome of COVID-19 will be, God is still fully in control.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 10:32:44 AM
Pastor Fienen:
It would have been really helpful if the CDC and other government entities could have started a year ago getting us ready to combat this pandemic. They could have been stockpiling masks and other supplies and preparing a vaccine. So, is this an example of Trump's short sightedness and general incompetence?

Me:
Did you not read that more than a year ago, the White House virtually closed the office in the CDC that was to plan for and deal with pandemics?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Eugene Crowner on March 16, 2020, 10:36:58 AM
I can vouch for what Pastor Austin much earlier said about being a Swede.

My mother was 100% Swedish, my father 50% Swedish.

My mother's sister was involved in Swedish-American activities for many years.  She lived about 50 freeway miles from me.   When she died, a fellow member (not a Swede) of her church graciously offered to help with cleaning out my aunt's apartment and getting various things where my aunt wanted them to go.

Later when attending a Swedish-American Club meeting honoring the memory of my aunt, the gracious helper came rushing at me with a big embrace, all but scattering the papers she had in her hand.

After the meeting a very Swedish member of the club who knew me through my aunt very quietly said that she had had grown up without all the hugging, had I?  I had to agree, in all my 71 years (at that time) of growing up around Swedes, all the embracing and hugging was new to me.  And, as far as I know, I have not suffered any damage from the lack of it!


Eugene Crowner
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 11:15:57 AM
I had some real adjustments to make when I moved to Europe where I was hugged and kissed, sometimes twice (both cheeks) by almost everyone. Got used to it, learned the protocols.
At the opera last Friday night, a good friend from New Jersey, a lovely young blonde who sang the role of Musetta in La Boheme, came out after curtain call and hugged me. Didn’t mind.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 16, 2020, 11:22:52 AM
BTW, one result of all this is a spike in my appreciation for the altar guild. We arrived this morning to find that nothing had been prepared (which we expected), but watching the deacon and I try to find all the things we needed (and remember all the things we needed) would have made for a funny YouTube video. We were pretty clueless. Of course the average Episcopalian altar guild probably has a more complex task than the average Lutheran one, but even so.  ;D
Could you briefly describe how the Episcopalian Eucharist practice is more complex than the average Lutheran one.  Thanks

Oh, just more details, things that typically weren't done by the altar guild at least at my congregation. I'm talking about set up tasks here. So, for instance, the altar guild at Emmanuel deals with putting the gospel book on the altar along with gloves for the assistant who will be carrying it; cruets both of wine and water on the credence table; lavabo bowl and purificators; a groovy case that has hosts separated in slots of varying count, so the deacon can take for consecration only the number needed (45 here today? OK, one group of 25 and two of 10). The altar guild also sets out the vestments needed for the priest, so he doesn't have to go looking for them in the closet. I realize some of these things may be characteristic of some Lutheran congregations as well, but the precision and accuracy with which it is done at Emmanuel is impressive.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 11:55:00 AM
I once led a three-day retreat for Episcopalians at a retreat house in Manhattan. Big old house, former convent. Before each service - mass in the morning, vespers/compline at night - I would arrive in the sacristy where an elderly Anglican nun, the sacristan for the house, not only had everything laid out but would hand me each item - amice, alb, cincture, maniple, stole and chasuble. For vespers, surplice and stole. A chart on the wall displayed, in olde Book Of Common Prayer language, the prayers pertaining to each.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 16, 2020, 01:10:17 PM
BTW, one result of all this is a spike in my appreciation for the altar guild. We arrived this morning to find that nothing had been prepared (which we expected), but watching the deacon and I try to find all the things we needed (and remember all the things we needed) would have made for a funny YouTube video. We were pretty clueless. Of course the average Episcopalian altar guild probably has a more complex task than the average Lutheran one, but even so.  ;D
Could you briefly describe how the Episcopalian Eucharist practice is more complex than the average Lutheran one.  Thanks

Oh, just more details, things that typically weren't done by the altar guild at least at my congregation. I'm talking about set up tasks here. So, for instance, the altar guild at Emmanuel deals with putting the gospel book on the altar along with gloves for the assistant who will be carrying it; cruets both of wine and water on the credence table; lavabo bowl and purificators; a groovy case that has hosts separated in slots of varying count, so the deacon can take for consecration only the number needed (45 here today? OK, one group of 25 and two of 10). The altar guild also sets out the vestments needed for the priest, so he doesn't have to go looking for them in the closet. I realize some of these things may be characteristic of some Lutheran congregations as well, but the precision and accuracy with which it is done at Emmanuel is impressive.


Another difference is that should more hosts or wine be needed, the new has to be consecrated. The Use of the Means of Grace does not require an additional consecration should extra elements be needed.


Application 47a       The food needed for the sacramental meal is placed on the table before the Great Thanksgiving. This is done so that the gathered assembly may see the full sign of the food it is to share, and so that we may give thanks and proclaim God’s promise in conjunction with the use of this very bread and wine. Nonetheless, in the rare event that more of either element is needed during distribution, it is not necessary to repeat the words of institution.[1]


[1] A Statement on Communion Practices, 1989, II.C.2.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 16, 2020, 02:02:40 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 16, 2020, 02:07:18 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 05:33:15 PM
Pastor Fienen:
It would have been really helpful if the CDC and other government entities could have started a year ago getting us ready to combat this pandemic. They could have been stockpiling masks and other supplies and preparing a vaccine. So, is this an example of Trump's short sightedness and general incompetence?

Me:
Did you not read that more than a year ago, the White House virtually closed the office in the CDC that was to plan for and deal with pandemics?

Read this: https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/03/16/washington-post-flip-flop-no-the-trump-white-house-did-not-dissolve-the-pandemic-response-office/

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 06:24:15 PM
Newspapers print the information available at the time and provided by what they consider to be reliable sources. And it appears that The Washington Post published an update and a correction when other information became available. Good for them.
Sometimes you get bad information or information that is mis-used; and have to admit that you got it wrong or gave an improper slant to it. I would be pleased if the White House did this too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 06:31:46 PM
Personal note on the virus:
   I suppose because we are a 250-member community of elderly people, Trillium Woods management today made drastic changes to our life. Our fine dining room and charming pub are closed. We now order in advance from menus more limited than usual and food is delivered to our residences. (This has been possible, but with an extra charge.) Beloved Spouse and I stocked up on soups and other foods for at home preparation.
   All activities and groups are cancelled. Fitness classes are limited to 4 people and will be shorter, but the pool and gym remain open. They plan additional “deep cleaning” and sanitizing of common areas. No “outsiders” may visit. In my external life, rehearsals for both my choruses have been cancelled.
   Beloved Spouse and I will go to parks for walks and fresh air; and we will attend movies if they stay open. (I have about 15 movies on Netflix that we want to see.) The “indoor walk” from our residence to the far end of our building and back is 1.3 miles, so we can do that if weather is bad.
   In New Jersey, our former next-door neighbor and two children across the street are infected along with some others; and virtually the whole town is on lock-down.
   The Trillium Woods changes are grim because the “social” part of our life here will suffer. Groups may gather, but we are advised to limit the size. And it is, of course, clear to those of us in this place that others have it much worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Chuck on March 16, 2020, 07:16:19 PM
Pastor Fienen:
It would have been really helpful if the CDC and other government entities could have started a year ago getting us ready to combat this pandemic. They could have been stockpiling masks and other supplies and preparing a vaccine. So, is this an example of Trump's short sightedness and general incompetence?

Me:
Did you not read that more than a year ago, the White House virtually closed the office in the CDC that was to plan for and deal with pandemics?

Read this: https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/03/16/washington-post-flip-flop-no-the-trump-white-house-did-not-dissolve-the-pandemic-response-office/ (https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/03/16/washington-post-flip-flop-no-the-trump-white-house-did-not-dissolve-the-pandemic-response-office/)
Or this:https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/false-claim-about-cdcs-global-anti-pandemic-work/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/false-claim-about-cdcs-global-anti-pandemic-work/)

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Keith Falk on March 16, 2020, 08:51:57 PM
Personal note on the virus:
   I suppose because we are a 250-member community of elderly people, Trillium Woods management today made drastic changes to our life. Our fine dining room and charming pub are closed. We now order in advance from menus more limited than usual and food is delivered to our residences. (This has been possible, but with an extra charge.) Beloved Spouse and I stocked up on soups and other foods for at home preparation.
   All activities and groups are cancelled. Fitness classes are limited to 4 people and will be shorter, but the pool and gym remain open. They plan additional “deep cleaning” and sanitizing of common areas. No “outsiders” may visit. In my external life, rehearsals for both my choruses have been cancelled.
   Beloved Spouse and I will go to parks for walks and fresh air; and we will attend movies if they stay open. (I have about 15 movies on Netflix that we want to see.) The “indoor walk” from our residence to the far end of our building and back is 1.3 miles, so we can do that if weather is bad.
   In New Jersey, our former next-door neighbor and two children across the street are infected along with some others; and virtually the whole town is on lock-down.
   The Trillium Woods changes are grim because the “social” part of our life here will suffer. Groups may gather, but we are advised to limit the size. And it is, of course, clear to those of us in this place that others have it much worse.


Movie theatres are now closed in our state (MN), along with lots of other types of businesses.  Netflix and Prime and Hulu time
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 16, 2020, 09:39:33 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN

This glaring difference is an old disparity of practice between the LCA and ALC.  Isn't it? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 16, 2020, 09:52:46 PM
OK, it would have been nice if the CDC and other medical researchers had begun a year or so ago work on a vaccine for the Corona virus that causes Covid-19, that the Trump administration had mandated massive stockpiling of medical supplies needed to combat this pandemic, perhaps even instituted enhance medical screening for people crossing our borders. I guess it's Trump's fault that he didn't forsee this outbreak a year before it started. I'm sure that if Hillary was in the WH she could have gotten things ready long ago.  ::)  And no, Trump didn't gut the CDC's department for dealing with this threat. But it's too good a story and moves the narrative along too well to let drop.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 10:00:07 PM
Newspapers print the information available at the time and provided by what they consider to be reliable sources. And it appears that The Washington Post published an update and a correction when other information became available. Good for them.
Sometimes you get bad information or information that is mis-used; and have to admit that you got it wrong or gave an improper slant to it. I would be pleased if the White House did this too.

Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 16, 2020, 10:04:44 PM
Six counties in SF Bay Area are under "shelter in place" order. No travel by any means except for when is deemed "essential" (trips to buy food, medicine, medical appointments, caring for family members). Doesn't apply to people in essential jobs (law enforcement, health and safety job, grocery clerks, sanitation workers, etc.). Others are supposed to stay home for the next three weeks. Over 6 million people affected.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 10:25:05 PM
Six counties in SF Bay Area are under "shelter in place" order. No travel by any means except for when is deemed "essential" (trips to buy food, medicine, medical appointments, caring for family members). Doesn't apply to people in essential jobs (law enforcement, health and safety job, grocery clerks, sanitation workers, etc.). Others are supposed to stay home for the next three weeks. Over 6 million people affected.

Are clergy considered "essential"?  Serious question.  If a member is dying, would a pastor be permitted to travel to the bedside?  Or is that not as necessary as, say, a garbage collector?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 10:25:37 PM
Another view on the CDC and its effectiveness: https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/03/cdc-was-fighting-racism-and-obesity-instead-daniel-greenfield/
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 16, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, unfortunately):
Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.

I comment:
So whatever, in the name of Aunt Gertie’s goat, happened to that “best construction” hoobie-doobie?
Until I read the items cited just upstream, I did not know the news had been updated. I was not, therefore, willfully repeating a “falsehood.” Now we could discuss whether the first account,until now  the only one known by this humble correspondent, was totally wrong, but let’s not do that.
My apologies for not knowing everything.
P.S. I do not need this particular event to justify criticism of the man in the Oval Office. Plenty of other stuff in that bag of atrocities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 16, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
Six counties in SF Bay Area are under "shelter in place" order. No travel by any means except for when is deemed "essential" (trips to buy food, medicine, medical appointments, caring for family members). Doesn't apply to people in essential jobs (law enforcement, health and safety job, grocery clerks, sanitation workers, etc.). Others are supposed to stay home for the next three weeks. Over 6 million people affected.

Are clergy considered "essential"?  Serious question.  If a member is dying, would a pastor be permitted to travel to the bedside?  Or is that not as necessary as, say, a garbage collector?

In times past, they were.

In our pluralistic/rationalistic/atheistic modernity--a truly open question.

I am sure that reports from the trenches will be posted here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 16, 2020, 10:42:31 PM
Six counties in SF Bay Area are under "shelter in place" order. No travel by any means except for when is deemed "essential" (trips to buy food, medicine, medical appointments, caring for family members). Doesn't apply to people in essential jobs (law enforcement, health and safety job, grocery clerks, sanitation workers, etc.). Others are supposed to stay home for the next three weeks. Over 6 million people affected.

Are clergy considered "essential"?  Serious question.  If a member is dying, would a pastor be permitted to travel to the bedside?  Or is that not as necessary as, say, a garbage collector?

One could probably slip that in under the category of traveling to care for someone (doesn't actually have to be a family member). In any event, it sounds as if they're not looking to arrest people indiscriminately; they are mostly relying on people obeying the order voluntarily. Obviously at any given moment hundreds of people could be on the way to the grocery store, and nobody's going to be pulling them over to see if they have a grocery list.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 11:06:11 PM
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, unfortunately):
Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.

I comment:
So whatever, in the name of Aunt Gertie’s goat, happened to that “best construction” hoobie-doobie?
Until I read the items cited just upstream, I did not know the news had been updated. I was not, therefore, willfully repeating a “falsehood.” Now we could discuss whether the first account,until now  the only one known by this humble correspondent, was totally wrong, but let’s not do that.
My apologies for not knowing everything.
P.S. I do not need this particular event to justify criticism of the man in the Oval Office. Plenty of other stuff in that bag of atrocities.

OK, I believe you did not know it until it was pointed out to you here.  And your immediate response?  No acknowledgement of your error, just an attempt to use it to bash President Trump.  An honest person would have said "oh, I see I was wrong".  But you did not.  You glossed over and simply ignored your error altogether.  But you DID get in another shot at the president, so it was all good, I guess.  That is why you are the master of "it". 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 16, 2020, 11:08:58 PM
Six counties in SF Bay Area are under "shelter in place" order. No travel by any means except for when is deemed "essential" (trips to buy food, medicine, medical appointments, caring for family members). Doesn't apply to people in essential jobs (law enforcement, health and safety job, grocery clerks, sanitation workers, etc.). Others are supposed to stay home for the next three weeks. Over 6 million people affected.

Are clergy considered "essential"?  Serious question.  If a member is dying, would a pastor be permitted to travel to the bedside?  Or is that not as necessary as, say, a garbage collector?

One could probably slip that in under the category of traveling to care for someone (doesn't actually have to be a family member). In any event, it sounds as if they're not looking to arrest people indiscriminately; they are mostly relying on people obeying the order voluntarily. Obviously at any given moment hundreds of people could be on the way to the grocery store, and nobody's going to be pulling them over to see if they have a grocery list.

Well, as a law-abiding citizen, I would think a pastor would want to know if his travel in the forbidden zone was legal. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 17, 2020, 12:13:45 AM
What do I need to do, Pastor Bohler? I admitted that I was improperly informed and therefore what I thought I knew was wrong. I am Sorry that I did not know everything.
But we digress.
I see a fine, detailed exchange ahead on whether or not clergy can be out in “forbidden zones,” if there Ever are such things among us. There will be much to worry about, whether we are doing something illegal, or semi-legal or constitutionally protected or whether we are disobeying a law that should not be legal and how we might “prove“, if asked, why we have the right to be out there. Questions abound.
So carry on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 17, 2020, 12:49:53 AM
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, unfortunately):
Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.

I comment:
So whatever, in the name of Aunt Gertie’s goat, happened to that “best construction” hoobie-doobie?
Until I read the items cited just upstream, I did not know the news had been updated. I was not, therefore, willfully repeating a “falsehood.” Now we could discuss whether the first account,until now  the only one known by this humble correspondent, was totally wrong, but let’s not do that.
My apologies for not knowing everything.
P.S. I do not need this particular event to justify criticism of the man in the Oval Office. Plenty of other stuff in that bag of atrocities.
OK, let's discuss whether the first account was totally wrong. Whether or not you were aware of it, it has been shown to have been false and has been retracted. Do you contend that it was not totally wrong (whatever that means) and if so, what do you contend was correct about it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 17, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Pastor Fienen:
OK, let's discuss whether the first account was totally wrong.
Me:
No. Let’s not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2020, 05:00:35 AM
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, unfortunately):
Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.

I comment:
So whatever, in the name of Aunt Gertie’s goat, happened to that “best construction” hoobie-doobie?
Until I read the items cited just upstream, I did not know the news had been updated. I was not, therefore, willfully repeating a “falsehood.” Now we could discuss whether the first account,until now  the only one known by this humble correspondent, was totally wrong, but let’s not do that.
My apologies for not knowing everything.
P.S. I do not need this particular event to justify criticism of the man in the Oval Office. Plenty of other stuff in that bag of atrocities.
OK, let's discuss whether the first account was totally wrong. Whether or not you were aware of it, it has been shown to have been false and has been retracted. Do you contend that it was not totally wrong (whatever that means) and if so, what do you contend was correct about it?
If nothing else, the example should help penetrate the wall of denial about media bias. It was a bad report. Nobody is perfect. But the mainstream media errors always land on the side of making Republicans look bad. And in this case there was no excuse for it. The person writing it clearly had an agenda and clearly viewed truth as acceptable collateral damage in pursuit of that agenda. No surprise there in the world of politics. But let's at least put away the pretense that WaPo and the NYT are not political players on the side of the Left, and read accordingly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 17, 2020, 05:43:33 AM
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, unfortunately):
Yep, newspapers print the information available to them at the time.  But YOU continue to repeat the falsehood, even after it has been shown to be false and those newspapers acknowledged their error.  And somehow, somehow, you manage to turn YOUR continued falsehoods into an attack on President Trump.  Bravo.  You are the master.  Of what, I won't say.  But you ARE the master of it.

I comment:
So whatever, in the name of Aunt Gertie’s goat, happened to that “best construction” hoobie-doobie?
Until I read the items cited just upstream, I did not know the news had been updated. I was not, therefore, willfully repeating a “falsehood.” Now we could discuss whether the first account,until now  the only one known by this humble correspondent, was totally wrong, but let’s not do that.
My apologies for not knowing everything.
P.S. I do not need this particular event to justify criticism of the man in the Oval Office. Plenty of other stuff in that bag of atrocities.
OK, let's discuss whether the first account was totally wrong. Whether or not you were aware of it, it has been shown to have been false and has been retracted. Do you contend that it was not totally wrong (whatever that means) and if so, what do you contend was correct about it?
If nothing else, the example should help penetrate the wall of denial about media bias. It was a bad report. Nobody is perfect. But the mainstream media errors always land on the side of making Republicans look bad. And in this case there was no excuse for it. The person writing it clearly had an agenda and clearly viewed truth as acceptable collateral damage in pursuit of that agenda. No surprise there in the world of politics. But let's at least put away the pretense that WaPo and the NYT are not political players on the side of the Left, and read accordingly.

Whatever you think of media bias in favor of Democrats, it's worse.

Take that link to the WaPo article from Tim Morrison.  Note at the very top of the page, even though it is straight from the man who was there when the act allegedly happened, it is classified as "opinion."

Scroll to the bottom.  You'll find a link entitled "Beth Cameron: I ran the White House pandemic office. Trump closed it." If you click on that link, now debunked, you'll note it's classified as "Perspective."

So the truth, from the man who was there when it happened, is "opinion," while a lie, from someone in the prior administration who was not there when it happened, is "perspective."

Thanks WaPo.  We're not falling for the banana in the tailpipe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 17, 2020, 08:24:21 AM
Thanks for "the banana in the tailpipe."  I had to look that up and see the film clip.  For us older folks, it's very much in play humanly.  Result of diverticulosis.  Stuck tailpipe.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 17, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub

Some potentially good news.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2020, 09:40:49 AM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN

This glaring difference is an old disparity of practice between the LCA and ALC.  Isn't it?

Yes would be my guess (never belonged to either). On this and other issues (especially sacramental ones) the LCA was the more conservative.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 17, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .


However, as the footnote indicates, it comes from the 1978 Statement that was approved by the ALC and LCA (and later the ELCA in 1989).
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 17, 2020, 01:00:14 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN

This glaring difference is an old disparity of practice between the LCA and ALC.  Isn't it?


Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 17, 2020, 01:21:44 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN

This glaring difference is an old disparity of practice between the LCA and ALC.  Isn't it?


Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)

Perhaps by 1978 this may have been the case.  I’m thinking prior to that... perhaps the 1960s.  Seems to me the German ALC was way more conservative than East coast LCA.  But I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2020, 02:04:28 PM
One rare instance where Use of the Means of Grace got it wrong . . .

Yeah, that surprises me. It has been a Lutheran practice for a very long time.

Peace, JOHN

This glaring difference is an old disparity of practice between the LCA and ALC.  Isn't it?


Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)

Perhaps by 1978 this may have been the case.  I’m thinking prior to that... perhaps the 1960s.  Seems to me the German ALC was way more conservative than East coast LCA.  But I could be mistaken.

The German strain of the ALC (that is, the 1930 ALC) was probably equal in general outlook (that is, conservative) to the General Council and Synod of the South strains of the LCA). Again, just a guess based on reading historical materials; I was never a member.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 17, 2020, 02:22:35 PM

Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)

Perhaps by 1978 this may have been the case.  I’m thinking prior to that... perhaps the 1960s.  Seems to me the German ALC was way more conservative than East coast LCA.  But I could be mistaken.

The rubrics of the Common Service stated, "If the consecrated Bread or Wine be spent befroe all have communed, the Minister shall set apart more, saying aloud so much of the Words of Institution as pertaineth to the Element to be consecreated." 

In his Commentary on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Pfatteicher follows the Statement on Communion Practices.  "Many Lutherans find such a consecration unnecessary," he writes, noting that no directions are in SBH or LBW rubrics, and in The Lutheran Liturgy Luther Reed dismisses the Nachkonsekration.  Or does he?  As I look it up (I have the 1947 edition), Reed describes how "some authorities (Theodore Harnack, Höfling; H. E. Jacobs, E. T. Horn) reject the so-called Nach Konsekration ... though admitting that this has always been a Lutheran custom," then gives their reasoning.  A few pages later Reed highlights the Common Service rubric without any further commentary.

I was taught the Nachkonsekration as a young LCA layman (perhaps when I was an acolyte), and have always practiced it myself since being ordained.  I served as Sacristan for the Mass during which Paull Spring was installed as the NALC's first Bishop -- he had been an LCA pastor when elected as the first Bishop of the ELCA's Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod -- and was directly charged by him to consecrate any additional elements if they were needed.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2020, 02:26:47 PM

Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)

Perhaps by 1978 this may have been the case.  I’m thinking prior to that... perhaps the 1960s.  Seems to me the German ALC was way more conservative than East coast LCA.  But I could be mistaken.

The rubrics of the Common Service stated, "If the consecrated Bread or Wine be spent befroe all have communed, the Minister shall set apart more, saying aloud so much of the Words of Institution as pertaineth to the Element to be consecreated." 

In his Commentary on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Pfatteicher follows the Statement on Communion Practices.  "Many Lutherans find such a consecration unnecessary," he writes, noting that no directions are in SBH or LBW rubrics, and in The Lutheran Liturgy Luther Reed dismisses the Nachkonsekration.  Although as I look it up, Reed describes how "some authorities (Theodore Harnack, Höfling; H. E. Jacobs, E. T. Horn) "reject the so-called Nach Konsekration ... though admitting that this has always been a Lutheran custom," then gives their reasoning.  A few pages later Reed repeats the Common Service rubric without any commentary at all.

I was taught the Nachkonsekration as a young LCA layman (perhaps when I was an acolyte), and have always practiced it myself since being ordained.  I served as Sacristan for the Mass during which Paull Spring was installed as the NALC's first Bishop -- he had been an LCA pastor when elected as the first Bishop of the ELCA's Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod -- and was directly charged by him to consecrate any additional elements if they were needed.

Pax, Steven+

I note that the Common Service comes from a predecessor of the LCA, The General Council.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 17, 2020, 02:35:22 PM
[Cross posting from the "Meaning of Closed Churches" discussion]

The Patriarch of Antioch has published an encyclical which is posted on www.antiochian.org in which he directs that services will continue with the minimum of the clergy, chanter, and caretaker, to be live streamed.

However, the Patriarch is mandating that the churches are NOT to be locked and that if any of the faithful do attend they are to receive the Mysteries (Communion)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 17, 2020, 02:50:00 PM
On the Nachkonsekration" here is Piepkorn, quoting The Lutheran Liturgy, the TLH, Minister's Edition.

"It has been stressed above that the celebrant should set aside no more hosts and wine than he actually expects to use in the course of any given celebration. If he has miscalculated, however, the General Rubric of The Lutheran Liturgy prescribe that "if the consecrated bread and wine be spent before all have communed, the celebrant shall consecrate more, saying aloud so much of the Words of Institution as pertains to the elements to be consecrated." In this rubric, "aloud" does not requires a greater volume of voice than is necessary for those who are in the chancel to hear what the celebrant is saying. Under no circumstances should a clergyman administer hosts or wine that have not been previously consecrated."

From, The Conduct of the Services

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 17, 2020, 03:05:13 PM
The first time I consecrated the elements was my ordination, which took place at my home church. We ran low on bread during the distribution and my home pastor came to me with more and said it would need to be consecrated. I totally blanked on what to do and asked him to do it, which he did. Not sure how kosher it was to have two celebrants, but we didn't distribute any unconsecrated elements.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 17, 2020, 03:06:48 PM
The rubric in the Book of Common Prayer:
If the consecrated Bread or Wine does not suffice for the number of communicants, the celebrant is to return to the Holy Table, and consecrate more of either or both, by saying
Hear us, O heavenly Father, and with thy (your) Word and Holy Spirit, bless and sanctify this bread (wine) that it, also, may be the Sacrament of the precious Body (Blood) of thy (your) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who took bread (the cup) and said, "This is my Body (Blood)." Amen. Note: This formula is to be used only in the context of a celebration of the Holy Eucharist, not separately.


Of course the first line of defense would be to take additional consecrated elements from the tabernacle.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 17, 2020, 03:26:26 PM

Nope. Both the ALC and LCA approved A Statement on Communion Practices in 1978 that says:

Only enough bread and wine should be brought to the altar to serve the congregation. Should the supply need to be replenished, it is not necessary to repeat the Words of Institution. (C.2.)

Perhaps by 1978 this may have been the case.  I’m thinking prior to that... perhaps the 1960s.  Seems to me the German ALC was way more conservative than East coast LCA.  But I could be mistaken.

The rubrics of the Common Service stated, "If the consecrated Bread or Wine be spent befroe all have communed, the Minister shall set apart more, saying aloud so much of the Words of Institution as pertaineth to the Element to be consecreated." 

In his Commentary on the Lutheran Book of Worship, Pfatteicher follows the Statement on Communion Practices.  "Many Lutherans find such a consecration unnecessary," he writes, noting that no directions are in SBH or LBW rubrics, and in The Lutheran Liturgy Luther Reed dismisses the Nachkonsekration.  Or does he?  As I look it up (I have the 1947 edition), Reed describes how "some authorities (Theodore Harnack, Höfling; H. E. Jacobs, E. T. Horn) reject the so-called Nach Konsekration ... though admitting that this has always been a Lutheran custom," then gives their reasoning.  A few pages later Reed highlights the Common Service rubric without any further commentary.

I was taught the Nachkonsekration as a young LCA layman (perhaps when I was an acolyte), and have always practiced it myself since being ordained.  I served as Sacristan for the Mass during which Paull Spring was installed as the NALC's first Bishop -- he had been an LCA pastor when elected as the first Bishop of the ELCA's Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod -- and was directly charged by him to consecrate any additional elements if they were needed.

Pax, Steven+


That is wise counsel.  Thanks
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 17, 2020, 03:35:50 PM
The rubric in the Book of Common Prayer:
If the consecrated Bread or Wine does not suffice for the number of communicants, the celebrant is to return to the Holy Table, and consecrate more of either or both, by saying
Hear us, O heavenly Father, and with thy (your) Word and Holy Spirit, bless and sanctify this bread (wine) that it, also, may be the Sacrament of the precious Body (Blood) of thy (your) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who took bread (the cup) and said, "This is my Body (Blood)." Amen. Note: This formula is to be used only in the context of a celebration of the Holy Eucharist, not separately.


This tangential discussion on consecrating additional elements is fascinating to me, because this is something which I have needed to "unlearn" in Orthodoxy.

We hold to a principle of affusion, that is, when "that which is in this cup" has been blessed, hallowed, and sanctified by the Holy Spirit in the epiclesis (wonderful to see that included in the BCP rubric!) anything subsequently added--and we add the hot water in every liturgy much, much later--will likewise be blessed, hallowed and sactified.

Similarly one the water in the Font had been blessed, hallowed, and sanctified during the Great Blessing of the Waters at Theophany (Epiphany) additional water can and frequently is added to the vessel without repeating the blessing.

Orthodoxy is less about the human hands and human words and more about the Divine Word and Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 17, 2020, 04:51:35 PM
I can see, though not necessarily agree with, the Orthodox position. My understanding has been that the Lutheran tradition was that if additional elements are needed they are blessed before use. My viewpoint is that doing a small consecration of additional elements would remove doubt. I cannot say that I have specific Scriptural command to consecrate new bread or wine to finish the distribution but would do so out of an abundance of caution. The purpose of the consecration is to set aside these elements for use in the Sacrament. Additional elements brought from the Sacristy were not so consecrated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 17, 2020, 06:20:52 PM
But somehow, although i agree with the practice, this extra “consecration” seems to raise a decidedly clericalist, non-Lutheran aspect to the matter.
Thread drift underway?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 17, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
Under extraordinary circumstance (and these days it might be so) I would think any baptized Christian would be able to say the Words of Institution for the Sacrament of Holy Communion to be valid.  This would certainly be the case for infant baptism should there be any  imminent death of the infant present.   Why wouldn't this practice be valid in this case?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: DeHall1 on March 17, 2020, 08:03:59 PM
Not sure if this is the correct place to post (Moderators: feel free to move this as you see fit).
CPH.org has their CPH FaithCourses® free of charge for a limited time.
https://www.cph.org/t-bestill-study.aspx
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 17, 2020, 09:07:12 PM
Just been watching update by our Gov., Gavin Newsom. Not a fan of his, but I have to say he is doing an excellent job--offering frank information, emphasizing the seriousness of the situation but doing so in a way that is honest and sober, not hysterical, with a strong note of reassurance that things will eventually be OK. Even just had something positive to say about the President.

Some minutes later . . . Yes, really excellent. Noted that all his conversations with the President have been very positive. Said he doubts schools would be able to open again this spring; when asked about it, he told a very personal story about his daughter's unhappiness about being out of school, and what he told her, and then: "If I have to be honest with my daughter about this, I have to be honest with you as well. Parents and students need to be realistic about what is coming."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 17, 2020, 09:28:14 PM
Just been watching update by our Gov., Gavin Newsom. Not a fan of his, but I have to say he is doing an excellent job--offering frank information, emphasizing the seriousness of the situation but doing so in a way that is honest and sober, not hysterical, with a strong note of reassurance that things will eventually be OK. Even just had something positive to say about the President.

I would say the same about our tri-state governors, and to large extent, the mayor of our little town.  If they implement "shelter in place" for New York City, that will be a quite amazing undertaking.  I truly understand the drive to "flatten the curve," so this doesn't by God's grace go on and on, but in the midst of a cascade of decisions all made in the last 72 hours, it's a tough pastoral and personal challenge.  We'll see how our Lenten Prayer service goes on FaceTime live tomorrow evening.  By the weekend, we may be out of commission entirely for awhile.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Keith Falk on March 17, 2020, 11:37:25 PM
Under extraordinary circumstance (and these days it might be so) I would think any baptized Christian would be able to say the Words of Institution for the Sacrament of Holy Communion to be valid.  This would certainly be the case for infant baptism should there be any  imminent death of the infant present.   Why wouldn't this practice be valid in this case?


Because while there such a creature as an emergency baptism, particularly in light of the "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" at the end of Mark's Gospel, there isn't such a thing as emergency holy communion.  There isn't a similar verse in Scripture for Holy Communion, which is in no way to diminish its importance in the life of the believer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on March 17, 2020, 11:39:57 PM
Holy Trinity, Grandview MO (south side of metro KC) decided to suspend religious gatherings until the 1st Sunday in April, which is Palm Sunday. We'll be utilizing various digital means to supply people with solid spiritual food.


Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 18, 2020, 12:38:31 PM
Babylon Bee once again hits Christian satire with a piece on God breaking quarantine. https://babylonbee.com/news/god-breaking-quarantine-and-going-everywhere (https://babylonbee.com/news/god-breaking-quarantine-and-going-everywhere) Not only is it at least mildly amusing but points up an important point that we and our people do well to keep in mind during these times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 18, 2020, 02:14:34 PM
In a brilliant display of Progressive Democrat policies in action- the city of Philadelphia is suspending remote learning because it is unfair for those students that do not have access.

So, when the ship is sinking, and you have lifeboats enough for 1500 people, but there are 2000 people, the common sense and fair thing to do is stave in all the lifeboats so no one gets rescued. Because fairness and equality of outcomes!

I
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 18, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
Nobody can get into college today unless they have a high-quality computer. No one can function efficiently in high school today unless they have a laptop computer. And if they don’t have one, The school should provide it.We didn’t have to buy textbooks back in the day, why should kids today have to buy computers?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 18, 2020, 02:51:06 PM
Nobody can get into college today unless they have a high-quality computer. No one can function efficiently in high school today unless they have a laptop computer. And if they don’t have one, The school should provide it.We didn’t have to buy textbooks back in the day, why should kids today have to buy computers?


My sister is a recently retired kindergarten teacher in an upper middle class suburb.  Her kids were required to have iPads.  I don't know what the school district did for students whose families could not afford one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 18, 2020, 02:59:05 PM
Nobody can get into college today unless they have a high-quality computer. No one can function efficiently in high school today unless they have a laptop computer. And if they don’t have one, The school should provide it.We didn’t have to buy textbooks back in the day, why should kids today have to buy computers?


My sister is a recently retired kindergarten teacher in an upper middle class suburb.  Her kids were required to have iPads.  I don't know what the school district did for students whose families could not afford one.
Same as textbook fees. If you qualify for free/reduced lunch, the fees are waived. Many school computers are rented, not purchased, and nobody is excluded.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 18, 2020, 03:35:45 PM
Our ELCA Churchwide Assemblies require voting members to have iPads. They will provide them (during the assembly) for those who don't own one.


1. It saves on the cost of printing thousands of pages of stuff.
2. It is much easier to update things, like when there are amendments to resolutions.


My guess is that Apple would welcome (and offer incentives) for schools to provide their products to students.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 18, 2020, 03:53:56 PM
Nobody can get into college today unless they have a high-quality computer. No one can function efficiently in high school today unless they have a laptop computer. And if they don’t have one, The school should provide it.We didn’t have to buy textbooks back in the day, why should kids today have to buy computers?
My sister is a recently retired kindergarten teacher in an upper middle class suburb.  Her kids were required to have iPads.  I don't know what the school district did for students whose families could not afford one.
Same as textbook fees. If you qualify for free/reduced lunch, the fees are waived. Many school computers are rented, not purchased, and nobody is excluded.
Sounds refreshing! In my second assignment (1967-8) in Minneapolis, at our local public high school students shared textbooks--you could take it home alternate evenings. Of course, the students were mainly Black and Native American. That's the first thing I think of when I hear the phrase "learning gap."

Peace,
Michael

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 18, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
As someone who sees what these modern Marvel's do in the classroom, they are highly overrated.
 
The tech is useful in this type of situation. I have been working 10 or so hours a day on remote learning for my boys since last Friday. But in the classroom? Meh. For every "benefit," there are at least two pitfalls.

Personally, I would go Chromebook over iPad, and Textbook & paper over both. But hell, all I have is 5 years teaching at an inner city HS.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 18, 2020, 04:02:59 PM
A close up view of the potential economic impact. We went out to run a couple of errands, one of which was to pick up something at JC Penny which we had ordered on line for our granddaughter. The local JCP is a small store, and we'd ordered on line because they didn't have the size and color we needed. Got there at 11 to find a sign on the door that they have "temporarily" reduced hours to noon to 7 (instead of 10 to 8 p.m.). Did some other errands and came back just after noon. Sign at the pick up desk said go to front cashier. There were only two sales people in the store, and I was the only customer. So one of them fetched my item. "Pretty busy today, huh?" I said. "Yeah. I can hardly keep up. It's a good thing you came in today; I'm just waiting for confirmation that we're going to be closed effective tomorrow until April 1." I asked if that was just this store, or all of them. "I don't know," she said. "The virus, plus the weather (it's been a little snowy) has really hit us hard. Absolutely no traffic except returns."

If this store were to close, it would be a major impact on our town; the only other thing approaching a "department store" is a KMart. We were wondering about the impact of all this on different kinds of businesses. Grocery stores are OK. Gyms are probably OK for a while; even if patrons are staying away, they're not a "pay per use" business so they can maintain things unless people start canceling. Movie theaters--well, one of them has already closed for at least the rest of the month, and the others are restricting the number of tickets sold. Non-essential retail, like JCP, is no doubt on the edge, which means laying people off.

I think those who are saying the economic impact may be a bigger problem than the health impact may be correct. I wonder how this will impact churches that are really living close to the edge and depend on a healthy Easter offering to keep afloat?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 18, 2020, 05:43:53 PM
The Board of Trustees at Our Savior’s, Crookston, has voted to cancel all services and activities effective immediately.  An abbreviated, congregation-less service will be available on KROX 1260AM Sunday mornings at 8:00 and on the church’s website: oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org. The same type of services will be done for midweek Lent (starting tonight) and put up on the website.  The Eldred congregation also decided to cancel all services and activities.

I am sad to have to write that.  My feeling was that, unless we were forced to stop services, we should continue for any that wished to come.  But the board felt otherwise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 18, 2020, 06:21:54 PM
The Board of Trustees at Our Savior’s, Crookston, has voted to cancel all services and activities effective immediately.  An abbreviated, congregation-less service will be available on KROX 1260AM Sunday mornings at 8:00 and on the church’s website: oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org. The same type of services will be done for midweek Lent (starting tonight) and put up on the website.  The Eldred congregation also decided to cancel all services and activities.

I am sad to have to write that.  My feeling was that, unless we were forced to stop services, we should continue for any that wished to come.  But the board felt otherwise.

That is sad.  It's personally sad for me, even though and as we have little squadrons of 10(ish) gathering for live streaming at this time.  That's a vocational thing.  Every holy season for 48 years has been the building up of the Body through the Word to the Holy Week crescendo.  With, not insignificantly, many lives "touched."  Now no touch.  No time together.  The crescendo is online?  Come on. 

But what it is is the second side of the coin toss "be constant in season and out of season."  Blessings through it all,

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 18, 2020, 08:10:15 PM
A close up view of the potential economic impact. We went out to run a couple of errands, one of which was to pick up something at JC Penny which we had ordered on line for our granddaughter. The local JCP is a small store, and we'd ordered on line because they didn't have the size and color we needed. Got there at 11 to find a sign on the door that they have "temporarily" reduced hours to noon to 7 (instead of 10 to 8 p.m.). Did some other errands and came back just after noon. Sign at the pick up desk said go to front cashier. There were only two sales people in the store, and I was the only customer. So one of them fetched my item. "Pretty busy today, huh?" I said. "Yeah. I can hardly keep up. It's a good thing you came in today; I'm just waiting for confirmation that we're going to be closed effective tomorrow until April 1." I asked if that was just this store, or all of them. "I don't know," she said. "The virus, plus the weather (it's been a little snowy) has really hit us hard. Absolutely no traffic except returns."

If this store were to close, it would be a major impact on our town; the only other thing approaching a "department store" is a KMart. We were wondering about the impact of all this on different kinds of businesses. Grocery stores are OK. Gyms are probably OK for a while; even if patrons are staying away, they're not a "pay per use" business so they can maintain things unless people start canceling. Movie theaters--well, one of them has already closed for at least the rest of the month, and the others are restricting the number of tickets sold. Non-essential retail, like JCP, is no doubt on the edge, which means laying people off.

I think those who are saying the economic impact may be a bigger problem than the health impact may be correct. I wonder how this will impact churches that are really living close to the edge and depend on a healthy Easter offering to keep afloat?

I have contemplated this. It seems dismal to me. If nearly everyone has to stay home, there is no spending (outside of necessities) and businesses will go bankrupt, mortgages will be forfeited, banks will fold, etc., etc.

Lord, have mercy, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: JEdwards on March 18, 2020, 08:16:30 PM
John Ioannidis has a reputation as a contrarian, but he is a very, very smart biostatistician.  Here is his take on the current measures being implemented to “flatten the curve”:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 18, 2020, 09:04:44 PM
The Board of Trustees at Our Savior’s, Crookston, has voted to cancel all services and activities effective immediately.  An abbreviated, congregation-less service will be available on KROX 1260AM Sunday mornings at 8:00 and on the church’s website: oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org. The same type of services will be done for midweek Lent (starting tonight) and put up on the website.  The Eldred congregation also decided to cancel all services and activities.

I am sad to have to write that.  My feeling was that, unless we were forced to stop services, we should continue for any that wished to come.  But the board felt otherwise.

I received a private message, asking why it was the trustees who made the decision rather than elders.  I will paste my answer below:

"Sorry, I should have made that clear.  In our congregation, the church council as a whole is called the Board of Trustees.  9 members in total.  3 are elders, 3 are stewardship/education committee, 3 are maintenance committee.  So, while I discussed this with the vice-chairman (who is one of the elders) first, it was the entire 9-man Board of Trustees that made the decision.  The chairman (another of the elders) is away on vacation in Florida, but was included in the conference call discussion/vote of the entire board, which the vice-chairman chaired."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Tonight's service, with just my wife and me.  Go to "From the Pastor" and scroll down to the video.  http://www.oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org/From-the-Pastor.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 19, 2020, 07:18:46 AM
I conducted four Lenten services at Emmanuel, spreading out attendance. Our people did a great job with social distancing. To my eye, with these measures, it is no more dangerous to come to church than it is for my healthy and lesser-risk people to go to the grocery store or the pharmacy. For that reason, I'll keep conducting services so Emmanuel may stay open as a house of prayer.

I also posted the first day's service to YouTube so those at home could view the service.

God bless everyone's efforts to keep their people constant in Word and prayer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 07:50:57 AM
We added communion to our Lenten services and held them yesterday at 2:30 and 6:30 p.m. with 34 and 30 in attendance, respectively. I'm glad to say that the changes we made to the service allowed everyone to worship and commune without anyone violating civil guidelines. Nobody needed to touch any hard surface that had been touched by anyone else, nobody had to come within six feet of anyone else, and we had no more than ten to a large room, counting each large section of pews and the balcony as rooms.

The three doors into the sanctuary were kept open, the inner doors into the church were propped open, and a volunteer opened the out door for everyone so that nobody had to touch a door handle. People picked up their own bulletin rather than have an usher hand it to them, and they took the bulletins home or put them in recycling after the service so they wouldn't be reused. There were no hymnals, papers, or writing utensils in the pews, and no attendance pads. There were no hangers in the coat rack (since they would be a pain to disinfect between services) so everybody took their coats into the pews. We did one line of continuous communion with respectable space between each person in line. I wore protective gloves to distribute the host into the hands of each communicant. People took their own individual cup from the tray, and placed the empty cup in a bowl to either side of the table. Between services, volunteers helped disinfect and wipe down the pews, which didn't take long. I really don't think anyone who attended put themselves or anyone else at risk.   

With people seated in the narthex we could have about 60 at each service without even needing flexibility in the guidelines, which means we could serve 240 people if attendance were evenly distributed across the services. Still not nearly enough to meet the usual need, but getting close to the ballpark. If new mandates come down preventing people from leaving their homes at all, then of course this won't work and we'll have to figure something else out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 19, 2020, 08:39:28 AM
Thanks for the descriptives, Peter - we're calling it the "four corner" offensive against the virus.  The few who attend will head to the four corners of the sanctuary where they can sit at six foot intervals.  9 of us last night conducted our FaceTime live Lenten service; congregants served as the choir and we just sang and sang between prayers and Scripture, enlisting those at home to do the same.

Our DP/Bishop has twice weekly Zoom meetings for pastors where we are learning some of the techniques that can be of use outside of the minimal in person gatherings.  With Zoom meeting, Google classroom, FaceTime, Facebook live, and then with the implementation of online giving it's possible to have a "congregation" of sorts.  But - workers are not working, the solutions to that, although being passed, are not implemented, the frail are isolated, and the pastoral needs are expanding exponentially.  Our "front line" pastoral and leadership efforts are to stay in touch with as many people in as many ways as possible for the purpose of prayer and the "mutual consolation and conversation of the brethren."  That little phrase from the Schmalkald Articles is listed as an article of the Gospel.  It's apparent to me more than ever that it was appropriately placed there.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 09:32:11 AM
Here is the 4th daily email to the congregation for anyone interested in sharing ideas/concerns.

This is the day that the Lord has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it.

War, famine, plague—these things do not interrupt life. They merely provide the setting in which the story of normal human life unfolds. Sometimes these terrors force us to pay attention to them, and other times they are easier to ignore. But the brokenness of creation is a constant in your life, as is the opportunity to rejoice in the Lord. Always.

One cause for rejoicing is that our first attempt at offering church services with communion during this public health crisis went very well yesterday. A total of 64 people came, 34 at 2:30 and 30 at 6:30. Except for the brief moment of reaching out to receive the wafer from my gloved hand, nobody had to come within six feet of anyone else, and nobody ever touched anything that hadn’t been disinfected since the last time anyone touched it. It was very safe, responsible, and (as always) a big blessing to those who could be there. Even those who could not be there could rejoice with the whole church family that it was happening.

With seating in the narthex, we can easily accommodate about 60-70 people per service without pushing the limits of any public health and safety guideline or putting anyone at risk. That means our Saturday 5:30 p.m. service and three Sunday morning services (remember, 8:00, 9:30, and 11:00 this week) could serve up to about 250 people without any problem arising if attendance is spread out evenly across the services. But as a CDC official pointed out Tuesday at the daily government press briefing, 10 to a room is a guideline for gatherings. A lot depends on the size of the room and the nature of the interaction going on in it. In our case, there could still be ample distance between people and no shared contact of surfaces even if a few more than ten were in any given section.

Many in our church family are working tirelessly to fight the disease or to keep vital food and medical supply chains open for people. Some have slight signs of illness and should not leave their own rooms. Some may be in lock down, or be especially vulnerable. We know not everyone can or should come to church this week. But if you can come, we plan to have Word and Sacrament available to you.

For those who can’t come, we hope to live stream the services, and if we can, we will email out the instructions. Otherwise we will get a recording available on the website as soon as we can afterward.

Today is the only day there is right now. We know God made it. We know his reasons are good, and His love everlasting. It isn’t just a fallen world, it is a redeemed world. It belongs to Christ, who reigns forever. Come what may, today is a day full of opportunity. Rejoice and glad in it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 19, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
The Board of Trustees at Our Savior’s, Crookston, has voted to cancel all services and activities effective immediately.  An abbreviated, congregation-less service will be available on KROX 1260AM Sunday mornings at 8:00 and on the church’s website: oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org. The same type of services will be done for midweek Lent (starting tonight) and put up on the website.  The Eldred congregation also decided to cancel all services and activities.

I am sad to have to write that.  My feeling was that, unless we were forced to stop services, we should continue for any that wished to come.  But the board felt otherwise.

I received a private message, asking why it was the trustees who made the decision rather than elders.  I will paste my answer below:

"Sorry, I should have made that clear.  In our congregation, the church council as a whole is called the Board of Trustees.  9 members in total.  3 are elders, 3 are stewardship/education committee, 3 are maintenance committee.  So, while I discussed this with the vice-chairman (who is one of the elders) first, it was the entire 9-man Board of Trustees that made the decision.  The chairman (another of the elders) is away on vacation in Florida, but was included in the conference call discussion/vote of the entire board, which the vice-chairman chaired."


In your congregation, what roles are played by elders, trustees, and council?  It sounds as if responsibility is divided in ways with which I am not familiar.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 19, 2020, 10:29:12 AM
Hi All,  The Federal Government seems to be poised to send out checks to everyone.  Speaking only for myself, this is "found money" that I will not need for my personal health and wellbeing.  I know that there will be others in the church for whom that is true.  If that is true for you please consider donating those funds to the church for use in alleviating the needs of those for whom such funds are in fact essential to health and well being.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2020, 10:49:34 AM
The Board of Trustees at Our Savior’s, Crookston, has voted to cancel all services and activities effective immediately.  An abbreviated, congregation-less service will be available on KROX 1260AM Sunday mornings at 8:00 and on the church’s website: oursaviorslutheranchurchcrookston.org. The same type of services will be done for midweek Lent (starting tonight) and put up on the website.  The Eldred congregation also decided to cancel all services and activities.

I am sad to have to write that.  My feeling was that, unless we were forced to stop services, we should continue for any that wished to come.  But the board felt otherwise.

I received a private message, asking why it was the trustees who made the decision rather than elders.  I will paste my answer below:

"Sorry, I should have made that clear.  In our congregation, the church council as a whole is called the Board of Trustees.  9 members in total.  3 are elders, 3 are stewardship/education committee, 3 are maintenance committee.  So, while I discussed this with the vice-chairman (who is one of the elders) first, it was the entire 9-man Board of Trustees that made the decision.  The chairman (another of the elders) is away on vacation in Florida, but was included in the conference call discussion/vote of the entire board, which the vice-chairman chaired."


In your congregation, what roles are played by elders, trustees, and council?  It sounds as if responsibility is divided in ways with which I am not familiar.

The annual voters meeting elects three men for a three year term; the terms are staggered, meaning the board always has six returning members.  After the voters elect the three that year, the nine-man board meets to determine who serves on which committee: elders, stewardship/education, and maintenance.  One of the newly elected men serves on each committee, with the returning members remaining on their previous committee.  So there would be a first-year elder, second-year elder, and third year elder (for instance).  The third year elder serves as congregational chairman, the second year elder as vice chair; one of the stewardship/education members is treasurer, another is secretary, and the other is Sunday School superintendent.  All three maintenance members oversee those issues for church, school, and parsonage.  The committees meet separately each month, and then join together as a whole.  Committees make recommendations on their area but it is the entire Board of Trustees that has the final say.  The pastor has voice, but no vote, in the committees and board as a whole.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 11:53:08 AM
Pasgolf writes:
The Federal Government seems to be poised to send out checks to everyone.  Speaking only for myself, this is "found money" that I will not need for my personal health and wellbeing.

I comment:
True also for this humble correspondent. This “checks to everyone” at this time is a crass ploy to curry favor. It would do nothing for the economy and not much for most families.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 19, 2020, 12:06:39 PM
Whether one should mail out checks or not is certainly a debatable point.  I'd prefer, as per the 8th commandment, to put a better construction on it at the least.

But it does bring up a good point that goes beyond the health issues associated with this crisis.  There is no doubt that our national economy is going to take a huge hit.  With many businesses that depend on social gatherings of people (sports, restaurants, movie theaters, galleries, museums, etc.) shuttering their doors, there are going to be a lot of unemployed people out there very soon, if not already.  Add to this the show down/shut down of travel via the air and sea.  The list goes on.  We certainly can rebound from this, just as we have from other crises such as the Great Depression.  With regard to that historical event we know that the government infused a lot of money and resources into the economy to keep things afloat. The economies of the world are, to a large degree, interdependent.  So this will be a worldwide issue.  At the very least we will have to find ways to keep the most vulnerable of our society from falling between the cracks.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 12:55:33 PM
Pasgolf writes:
The Federal Government seems to be poised to send out checks to everyone.  Speaking only for myself, this is "found money" that I will not need for my personal health and wellbeing.

I comment:
True also for this humble correspondent. This “checks to everyone” at this time is a crass ploy to curry favor. It would do nothing for the economy and not much for most families.
Mailing everyone $1000 would do nothing for the economy? Okay, how would you stimulate spending and relieve economic stress on those living hand to mouth who can’t work during all this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 19, 2020, 01:06:52 PM
Pr Austin,  Unfortunately, you missed the direct point of my post.  I and others who do not need these funds for health and wellbeing have an opportunity for generosity that can do much good when targeted through the agency of the church to those who do have need. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 19, 2020, 01:14:15 PM
“Government infused a lot of money ...”. And where does that money come from?  From taxpayers.  The economy.  It is rather like taking from our household’s grocery fund to pay the electric bill.  In the end, such “government checks” are just income re-distribution.  Unless it is just borrowing on the future with no real hope of repaying the debt.  So let’s at least be honest about that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 01:15:02 PM
So, Peter, you are all of a sudden in favor of uncontrolled, massive federal help to individuals? And I am not? Wha’ happened?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
From the New York Times today, my emphasis added:
WASHINGTON — The outbreak of the respiratory virus began in China and was quickly spread around the world by air travelers, who ran high fevers. In the United States, it was first detected in Chicago, and 47 days later the World Health Organization declared a pandemic. By then it was too late: 110 million Americans were expected to become ill, leading to 7.7 million hospitalized and 586,000 dead.
That scenario, code-named “Crimson Contagion,” was simulated by the Trump administration’s Department of Health and Human Services in a series of exercises that ran from Last january to Ausgust.
The simulation’s sobering results — contained in a draft report dated October 2019 that has not previously been reported — drove home just how underfunded, underprepared and uncoordinated the federal government would be for a life-or-death battle with a virus for which no treatment existed.
The draft report, marked “not to be disclosed,” laid out in stark detail repeated cases of “confusion” in the exercise. Federal agencies jockeyed over who was in charge. State officials and local hospitals struggled to figure out what kind of equipment was stockpiled or available. Cities and states went their own way on school closings.
Many of the potentially deadly consequences of a failure to address the shortcomings are now playing out in all-too-real fashion across the country. And it was hardly the first warning for the nation’s leaders. Three times over the past four years the U.S. government, across two administrations, had grappled in depth with what a pandemic would look like, identifying likely shortcomings and in some cases recommending specific action.
In 2016 the Obama administration produced a comprehensive report on the lessons learned by the government from battling Ebola. In January 2017 outgoing Obama administration officials ran an extensive exercise on responding to a pandemic for incoming senior officials of the Trump administration.

The full story of the Trump administration’s response to the coronavirus is still playing out. Government officials, health professionals, journalists and historians will spend years looking back on the muddled messages and missed opportunities of the past three months, as President Trump moved from dismissing the coronavirus as a few cases that would soon be “under control” to his revisionist announcement Monday that he had known all along that a pandemic was on the way.
What the scenario makes clear, however, is that his own administration had already modeled a similar pandemic and understood its potential trajectory.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 19, 2020, 01:27:07 PM
So, Peter, you are all of a sudden in favor of uncontrolled, massive federal help to individuals? And I am not? Wha’ happened?

Could it be that Trump is on board with this, whoever first floated the idea, so since Trump is in favor of it, it cannot be good?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
So, Peter, you are all of a sudden in favor of uncontrolled, massive federal help to individuals? And I am not? Wha’ happened?
No, not at all. In general I oppose bailouts and massive deficit spending. But I don’t know how else to deal with this unprecedented, bizarre, sudden threat to the economy. So I’m willing to withhold judgment. It seems to have bipartisan support, with a few very fiscally conservative Republicans opposed. If anything, the Democratic leadership seems to be pushing for the checks to be larger. Apparently in your those Democrats are holding out for an even more shameless ploy.

If you have no idea what your dream president would do, or what you would do if you were president, or what you think Trump should do instead, then why comment? If someone had told me in January that the feds were thinking of mailing everyone a check, I would have opposed it and thought the idea somewhat silly. But here we are. When I don’t know what I would do or see done, I consent to be led, or at least try not to bite at the heels of whoever is leading.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 19, 2020, 02:02:47 PM
“Government infused a lot of money ...”. And where does that money come from? 


We're borrowing it from the Chinese communists.

spt+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: JEdwards on March 19, 2020, 02:47:47 PM
“Government infused a lot of money ...”. And where does that money come from?  From taxpayers.  The economy.  It is rather like taking from our household’s grocery fund to pay the electric bill.  In the end, such “government checks” are just income re-distribution.  Unless it is just borrowing on the future with no real hope of repaying the debt.  So let’s at least be honest about that.
I'm not an expert in economics, but I think the theory is that in this crisis situation, there may be millions of Americans who are actually good credit risks and simply need cash flow to get them through the next few months of uncertainty.  While each could individually try to arrange credit, the delay and uncertainty could lead to unnecessary financial disruption.  Like it or not, Uncle Sam is able to borrow money more quickly and easily than even the most creditworthy individuals, and time is of the essence.  In effect, Uncle Sam borrows on behalf of everyone for the sake of speed and predictability.  It does mean that some (maybe a lot) of money goes to people with no particular need, but it hopefully staves off the scenario of cascading defaults from a temporary interruption of cash flow.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 03:35:25 PM
Peter writes:
When I don’t know what I would do or see done, I consent to be led, or at least try not to bite at the heels of whoever is leading.

I comment:
Well, I do not always “consent to be led.” This might be a good idea, and I’m glad it has bipartisan support. I can still be suspicious about it, can’t I?
As for our leadership, Does his babbling, sometimes incoherent, “it’s all about me” performance at these news conferences give you any comfort? Do his potshots at certain people, which I think he means to be lighthearted, seem appropriate? Does he show any sign of grasping the real situation? He did have praise for some of his people this time, and that’s good. I could be led by some of the doctors I have heard from, but I don’t think I can be led by him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 03:40:48 PM
Peter writes:
When I don’t know what I would do or see done, I consent to be led, or at least try not to bite at the heels of whoever is leading.

I comment:
Well, I do not always “consent to be led.” This might be a good idea, and I’m glad it has bipartisan support. I can still be suspicious about it, can’t I?
As for our leadership, Does his babbling, sometimes incoherent, “it’s all about me” performance at these news conferences give you any comfort? Do his potshots at certain people, which I think he means to be lighthearted, seem appropriate? Does he show any sign of grasping the real situation? He did have praise for some of his people this time, and that’s good. I could be led by some of the doctors I have heard from, but I don’t think I can be led by him.
There is a big difference between being suspicious about something and declaring with certainty that it won’t do any good and is nothing more than a political ploy, which is what you did. Go ahead and be suspicious this plan, Trump, and his motives. But learn to be suspicious of your own motives, too. My guess is that some economic experts care up with the plan. If Trump overruled them, you’d see that as another sign of his reckless irresponsibility and disregard for the little guy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 03:44:13 PM
peter writes:
If Trump overruled them, you’d see that as another sign of his reckless irresponsibility and disregard for the little guy.

I comment:
No, I don’t need any more signs of his reckless responsibility, I’ve got plenty already.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 19, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
By order of the governor, the closure of all public and private schools in Indiana has been extended to May 1.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 19, 2020, 04:11:39 PM
This interesting reflection from Preet Bharara on the current situation. I know there are a couple of things in here that will make some of you say, "Well, he's a Democrat, why should I listen to him" but just skip that part. I think his analysis of how people are feeling and why is very much on point, and reflects much of the spiritual situation we have to deal with as pastors right now


Greetings from home isolation. No one in my family is sick or symptomatic, but like millions of Americans, we are doing our part to help stop the spread. I’ve barely left the house in five days, and then only to get food and provisions. I expect it to be so for weeks more – at least. Just ten days ago, this would have seemed an extreme overreaction. Now it’s just the way it is.

I know I’m not making a novel observation. The most common conversation I have with people lately is some version of “can you believe what it was like just seven days ago?” I’m sure you’re all thinking and saying the same kinds of things. Not long ago, we thought the pain might be short-lived. Not long ago, supplies were plentiful. Expectations and adaptations change hourly. By the time I write you next, we may be in a nationwide lockdown. That was unthinkable just last weekend.

People are drawing parallels between this crisis and some from the past. None of the modern brushes with pandemic disease seem to fit the bill. Not Ebola or swine flu or HIV. Others make comparisons to the financial crisis and recession of 2008. That doesn’t seem to fit either. Ben White, an economics correspondent for Politico, put it this way in a tweet last night: [Here he pasted in a tweet which didn't copy, but it says: "A person asked me if covering the 2008 crisis was this grim. No. It was awful. And scary. I left the NYT newsroom shaken on many nights. But this is far worse. A terrifying, world altering health crisis with a financial crisis strapped to its back and poised to explode."

Still others invoke the terrible period after 9/11. This analogy most matches my own feelings. I’ve asked myself when have I ever felt this uneasy and worried. Only 9/11 comes close. I was living in Manhattan, we had a four-month old daughter, and I was working at SDNY. For a long while, we awaited another mass attack, which never came.

I was anxious then, and I am anxious now. But this pandemic is different and, in a way, even more worrying. I’ve been trying to figure out why that is. How can this feel worse than the worst attack on American soil in history?

I have some preliminary thoughts. One difference is that back then we came together. We had resolve. Members of Congress, arm in arm, sang God Bless America on the steps of the Capitol. Love poured in from around the country (and world) to New York, Virginia, and Pennsylvania. There was shared loss and communal mourning. We had strong leadership; whatever you think of George W. Bush and Rudy Giuliani today, they said the right things in the right way in the aftermath of the terror attacks. Now our leaders are often bickering and belligerent, some states taking strong action while others are keeping their beaches open, and we have a mendacious, minimizing, narcissist presiding over the whole mess. We are fractured, not unified.

There is also the simplest of differences. After 9/11 we did a lot of hugging. In the age of coronavirus, you can’t even shake anyone’s hand. It is harder to come together when you have to socially distance. Feelings of isolation are natural given the need for literal isolation.

Another difference is the nature of the enemy. On 9/11 the enemy was human. You had the belief that evil people could be defeated by good people. You also could get angry and you had a target for your anger, the murderous members of al Qaeda. Maybe this is a reason, aside from deflection, that Trump may seek to twist our response in part into a battle against China, not just the disease.

It’s oddly comforting to be able to blame people. You could go to war and fight. I was not yet in the Organized Crime and Terrorism Unit at SDNY, but I had friends and colleagues who were investigating the attacks at a Command Center to bring the evil-doers to justice. That made me feel better too.

These are microbes, not men. The enemy is invisible and ominous. There’s not a lot of understanding about the disease yet. After 9/11, moreover, we knew there could well be another attack, but we could hope that the next plot could be stopped. Indeed, it never came. Here, the disease looms overhead, like a poisonous storm cloud. The doctors tell us what is inevitable, and they show us the math. We watch Italy, as astronomers might observe a nearby star, knowing that it is only 7 light-days away, and that country’s present is our future.

What this pandemic imposes is not so much terror as dread.

But I have plenty of hope. Millions of people’s attitudes and behaviors have changed on a dime. The remaining oblivious millions can yet come together and do the same. In the end, we are not being asked to go to war like the Greatest Generation was.  There will be widespread suffering as people lose incomes and fall sick, but the immediate asks of us are mostly mundane – wash your hands, shelter in place, don’t hoard goods.

And there are moments of grace and Zen all over. People are buying groceries for the elderly, making food deliveries, checking on their neighbors, and helping in any way they can. Even in Italy, the hardest-hit European country, there is spontaneous opera on balconies and dolphins are re-appearing in waterways.

Certain shortages have been overstated. It’s a small thing, but I can share that our family procured two bottles of hand sanitizer from the local CVS this morning, at the ordinary price, and there was toilet paper in our grocery store yesterday. A week ago, that’s what was unthinkable.

Like you, I am cooped up and fretful, but I have shared every meal the past week with my kids and for that I feel blessed and grateful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 19, 2020, 04:29:56 PM
Well said, with the exception of the, now apparently required, dig at our President. That did not help raise the conversation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 05:00:57 PM
Giuliani got his praise for his leadership after 9/11. President Bush got his praise, and then blew it when he declared “mission accomplished” too soon. In these big deal situations, the person with the top has to take a lot. Some of it may be undeserved, both praise and blame.
And the person at the top brings into the situation whatever baggage they were carrying before the situation began.
Beloved spouse and I are just back from a trip to the grocery store. There are no eggs. Found everything else we needed, and we don’t need a lot because if we like, meals are delivered to our residence from our Now-closed dining room.
We must find ways to continue some kind of social contact and the direction with people.
Work on that lies ahead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 19, 2020, 05:23:37 PM
Thanks for the descriptives, Peter - we're calling it the "four corner" offensive against the virus.  The few who attend will head to the four corners of the sanctuary where they can sit at six foot intervals.  9 of us last night conducted our FaceTime live Lenten service; congregants served as the choir and we just sang and sang between prayers and Scripture, enlisting those at home to do the same.

Our DP/Bishop has twice weekly Zoom meetings for pastors where we are learning some of the techniques that can be of use outside of the minimal in person gatherings.  With Zoom meeting, Google classroom, FaceTime, Facebook live, and then with the implementation of online giving it's possible to have a "congregation" of sorts.  But - workers are not working, the solutions to that, although being passed, are not implemented, the frail are isolated, and the pastoral needs are expanding exponentially.  Our "front line" pastoral and leadership efforts are to stay in touch with as many people in as many ways as possible for the purpose of prayer and the "mutual consolation and conversation of the brethren."  That little phrase from the Schmalkald Articles is listed as an article of the Gospel.  It's apparent to me more than ever that it was appropriately placed there.

Dave Benke
We added communion to our Lenten services and held them yesterday at 2:30 and 6:30 p.m. with 34 and 30 in attendance, respectively. I'm glad to say that the changes we made to the service allowed everyone to worship and commune without anyone violating civil guidelines. Nobody needed to touch any hard surface that had been touched by anyone else, nobody had to come within six feet of anyone else, and we had no more than ten to a large room, counting each large section of pews and the balcony as rooms.

The three doors into the sanctuary were kept open, the inner doors into the church were propped open, and a volunteer opened the out door for everyone so that nobody had to touch a door handle. People picked up their own bulletin rather than have an usher hand it to them, and they took the bulletins home or put them in recycling after the service so they wouldn't be reused. There were no hymnals, papers, or writing utensils in the pews, and no attendance pads. There were no hangers in the coat rack (since they would be a pain to disinfect between services) so everybody took their coats into the pews. We did one line of continuous communion with respectable space between each person in line. I wore protective gloves to distribute the host into the hands of each communicant. People took their own individual cup from the tray, and placed the empty cup in a bowl to either side of the table. Between services, volunteers helped disinfect and wipe down the pews, which didn't take long. I really don't think anyone who attended put themselves or anyone else at risk.   

With people seated in the narthex we could have about 60 at each service without even needing flexibility in the guidelines, which means we could serve 240 people if attendance were evenly distributed across the services. Still not nearly enough to meet the usual need, but getting close to the ballpark. If new mandates come down preventing people from leaving their homes at all, then of course this won't work and we'll have to figure something else out.
Trinity Lutheran Sheboygan WI (https://www.trinitysheboygan.org/covid-19-church-info) has scheduled a extensive number of additional Divine Services throughout the week limited to ten in attendance.  Quite a schedule ... even with 2 rostered pastors.
The pastor of the congregation I currently attend cut his family spring break vacation short in order to to assist with the first streamed Lenten Service last night.
May God continue to bless the pastors and their families who often sacrifice family time of the benefit of the Church.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 19, 2020, 05:33:09 PM
This interesting reflection from Preet Bharara on the current situation.....

Thank you for sharing this.  He captures well that sense of uneasiness, coupled with hope and gratitude that many of us have.  I am too preoccupied with local concerns to be caught up in the bigger political picture.  Suddenly the primaries have little interest. Like this person my world is largely reduced to the confines of my home and my laptop computer, with occasional walks over to an empty church and a brief trip to the store for provisions.  I am still trying to figure out the best way to minister in this new situation.  Yesterday I had my first "Facebook Live" session from my office.  I felt good being able, even in some limited way, to connect with my people, letting them see my face, hear my voice.  I shared my midweek Lenten homily and a brief version of Prayer at the Close of Day.  Today I again posted on our FB page encouraging my people to be in the Word and in prayer.  But I know this cannot be enough.  I heard ideas shared in a Zoom meeting with the circuit visitors, district president and presidium of my district.  It was good to see them as well.  It may be remote and virtual, but it's still better than mere words in an email. Each day is a day to brainstorm and think creatively about things I could not imagine even a week ago.  But I am grateful.  I have food. I am still well. My family is safe. And I am hopeful.  Just today I saw that the FDA may soon approve the use of Chloroquine, a drug used during WWII for malaria, to help combat this new virus.  It is a ray of sunshine in an otherwise cloudy horizon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 19, 2020, 07:13:18 PM
Thanks for the descriptives, Peter - we're calling it the "four corner" offensive against the virus.  The few who attend will head to the four corners of the sanctuary where they can sit at six foot intervals.  9 of us last night conducted our FaceTime live Lenten service; congregants served as the choir and we just sang and sang between prayers and Scripture, enlisting those at home to do the same.

Our DP/Bishop has twice weekly Zoom meetings for pastors where we are learning some of the techniques that can be of use outside of the minimal in person gatherings.  With Zoom meeting, Google classroom, FaceTime, Facebook live, and then with the implementation of online giving it's possible to have a "congregation" of sorts.  But - workers are not working, the solutions to that, although being passed, are not implemented, the frail are isolated, and the pastoral needs are expanding exponentially.  Our "front line" pastoral and leadership efforts are to stay in touch with as many people in as many ways as possible for the purpose of prayer and the "mutual consolation and conversation of the brethren."  That little phrase from the Schmalkald Articles is listed as an article of the Gospel.  It's apparent to me more than ever that it was appropriately placed there.

Dave Benke
We added communion to our Lenten services and held them yesterday at 2:30 and 6:30 p.m. with 34 and 30 in attendance, respectively. I'm glad to say that the changes we made to the service allowed everyone to worship and commune without anyone violating civil guidelines. Nobody needed to touch any hard surface that had been touched by anyone else, nobody had to come within six feet of anyone else, and we had no more than ten to a large room, counting each large section of pews and the balcony as rooms.

The three doors into the sanctuary were kept open, the inner doors into the church were propped open, and a volunteer opened the out door for everyone so that nobody had to touch a door handle. People picked up their own bulletin rather than have an usher hand it to them, and they took the bulletins home or put them in recycling after the service so they wouldn't be reused. There were no hymnals, papers, or writing utensils in the pews, and no attendance pads. There were no hangers in the coat rack (since they would be a pain to disinfect between services) so everybody took their coats into the pews. We did one line of continuous communion with respectable space between each person in line. I wore protective gloves to distribute the host into the hands of each communicant. People took their own individual cup from the tray, and placed the empty cup in a bowl to either side of the table. Between services, volunteers helped disinfect and wipe down the pews, which didn't take long. I really don't think anyone who attended put themselves or anyone else at risk.   

With people seated in the narthex we could have about 60 at each service without even needing flexibility in the guidelines, which means we could serve 240 people if attendance were evenly distributed across the services. Still not nearly enough to meet the usual need, but getting close to the ballpark. If new mandates come down preventing people from leaving their homes at all, then of course this won't work and we'll have to figure something else out.
Trinity Lutheran Sheboygan WI (https://www.trinitysheboygan.org/covid-19-church-info) has scheduled a extensive number of additional Divine Services throughout the week limited to ten in attendance.  Quite a schedule ... even with 2 rostered pastors.
The pastor of the congregation I currently attend cut his family spring break vacation short in order to to assist with the first streamed Lenten Service last night.
May God continue to bless the pastors and their families who often sacrifice family time of the benefit of the Church.

I'm doing that now, and will do that Sunday; however, there is no magic to the number ten.  That's just the various governors' magic number. 

We have found thus far that lots of singing of familiar songs, lots of prayer, and lots of pointed reflection on Scripture - with, by the way, the input of those who are watching and can text in their needs or thoughts - is well received.  My Hope is Built on Nothing Less, Abide with Me, reading a Psalm together, these are live-stream ways to bring folks together in word and prayer.  There's a song we ended with that we really like by Fernando Ortega - Jesus, King of Angels - that's like Now Rest Beneath Night's Shadows.  Evening services are great for heading folks toward a peaceful night's rest in the Lord.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 19, 2020, 07:18:00 PM
We did Bible studies today via Zoom. Interestingly, at our 7:30 men's Bible study, which normally meets at a local restaurant, we had a couple of folks who hadn't ever been in person. And a couple of people remarked at the end that they thought the conversation was better without the distraction of waitresses and ambient restaurant noise. (My breakfast order never came, however.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 19, 2020, 08:00:50 PM
In my role as software engineer I work with people in other countries.  A few days ago I was chatting via Skype for Business with someone in China (we work for the same company).  He mentioned that they are expecting to start working at work again on Monday.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 19, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
You want to go into a little more detail about the "distraction of waitresses"? No, you probably don't.
I am proposing that our book discussion group meet via Zoom, but there is a bit of a learning curve, I think. We shall see.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 19, 2020, 11:05:33 PM
Cali is now closed with "stay at home" order for 40 million people.  I don't think we're far behind in some shape or form. 

I'm a board member of the Council of Churches, City of New York in my retired/emeritus status.  That group is considering sending a letter to our state officials at all levels requesting that any relief funds designated to assist businesses include provision for houses of worship.  The losses of funds from worshipers across the board in congregations large and small is going to be staggering, especially with various holy seasons coming up during the shutdown time.  Of course there are the separation of church/state issues.   

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 20, 2020, 06:50:27 AM
David Brooks reflecting on our situation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/opinion/coronavirus-isolation.html

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: jtpless on March 20, 2020, 07:10:53 AM

Resources for preaching in pandemic:

https://www.1517.org/articles/pandemic-preaching?utm_source=Craft+of+Preaching&utm_campaign=15f115427a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_20_04_55&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7c35c56bdb-15f115427a-462710385&mc_cid=15f115427a&mc_eid=e4fc17eadb
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 20, 2020, 12:24:29 PM
New York is now going to stay home/shelter in place.  We're going to have a two or three person facetime/online option for prayer and song.  And communicate with everyone as often as possible by God's grace.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2020, 12:28:05 PM
New York is now going to stay home/shelter in place.  We're going to have a two or three person facetime/online option for prayer and song.  And communicate with everyone as often as possible by God's grace.

Dave Benke

As I said on another thread yesterday:

I have been amazed at how quickly, and with so little push-back, the government has taken control of everything.  It scares me (in an earthly sense) more than a little.  There is no known case of the virus anywhere near here -- the closest, I believe, is 250 miles away from my location.  Yet virtually every business has been shut down (many, I fear, will never re-open).  Corporate worship has been effectively eliminated.  Groups or gatherings greater than 10 more or less outlawed (effectively preventing opposition to current policy).  The economy devastated.  Life savings wiped out.  I am waiting for travel to be forbidden, food rationing to begin, and control of production/distribution of other necessities to be proclaimed -- all in the interest of public safety.

Graphs charting the projected spread of the virus have been widely shared, with the proverbial hockey-stick line.  Well, I think you could make a similar graph of freedoms/liberties lost.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 20, 2020, 12:38:02 PM
New York is now going to stay home/shelter in place.  We're going to have a two or three person facetime/online option for prayer and song.  And communicate with everyone as often as possible by God's grace.

Dave Benke

As I said on another thread yesterday:

I have been amazed at how quickly, and with so little push-back, the government has taken control of everything.  It scares me (in an earthly sense) more than a little.  There is no known case of the virus anywhere near here -- the closest, I believe, is 250 miles away from my location.  Yet virtually every business has been shut down (many, I fear, will never re-open).  Corporate worship has been effectively eliminated.  Groups or gatherings greater than 10 more or less outlawed (effectively preventing opposition to current policy).  The economy devastated.  Life savings wiped out.  I am waiting for travel to be forbidden, food rationing to begin, and control of production/distribution of other necessities to be proclaimed -- all in the interest of public safety.

Graphs charting the projected spread of the virus have been widely shared, with the proverbial hockey-stick line.  Well, I think you could make a similar graph of freedoms/liberties lost.

Here in NY, the closest case is 250 inches away.  I wasn't around in WWII, but I was here after 9/11, and the amount of "freedoms" we gave up in terms of staying home, not using bridges and tunnels, having every item of ID checked multiple times, was necessary, and particularly necessary for us in and around New York City.  Some of those restrictions on freedoms of movement, etc. lasted for weeks; others lasted for several years. 

I think, but without much more than a basic knowledge, that very much less densely populated areas are less likely to see initial infection, as you indicate.  I also think that taking the precautions we're taking now will make that a lasting situation for you.  If zero corona virus cases showed up in Crookston, MN, that would be a wonderful thing, thanks be to God and appropriate caution.

We have had school parents in to pick up materials today, and some of them are truly distraught as they face family illness and don't know what next steps to take.  We can and do pray for and with them.  It's just not fair of me to our members to bring them in to the building on Sunday for worship.  They'll hear from us and/or catch it on live streaming and it will be prayer and song.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 20, 2020, 01:21:43 PM
I know there are some who think we are overreacting, especially when we can't see the serious potential in our own areas.  We just had a recorded case less than an hour from my home, so I know it's getting closer, and I live in a rural area of northern Wisconsin.  It's only a matter of time before my community is hit. 

I watched this video of the situation in Italy, and it's sobering.  We can relax and take our chances, but Italy is the picture of what we could be if proper precautions are not taken now.

https://www.businessinsider.com/video-tour-coronavirus-icu-ward-bergamo-italy-worst-apocalyptic-2020-3?fbclid=IwAR25AS_jopYn3IISalehAIGPKfCBl_n16syrLPok5lFbVJHagAHsM0vAipQ (https://www.businessinsider.com/video-tour-coronavirus-icu-ward-bergamo-italy-worst-apocalyptic-2020-3?fbclid=IwAR25AS_jopYn3IISalehAIGPKfCBl_n16syrLPok5lFbVJHagAHsM0vAipQ)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on March 20, 2020, 01:51:19 PM
Indeed, Pr. Engebretson. Kind of reminds one of the comments by the irresponsible youth on the Florida beaches, demanding their freedom to party.

https://youtu.be/o_cImRzKXOs

BTW, Moorhead in Clay County is 69.3 miles from Crookston.

https://claycountymn.gov/DocumentCenter/View/9928/317-CCPH-1st-Confirmed-Case?bidId=

https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Keith Falk on March 20, 2020, 02:14:53 PM
Pasgolf writes:
The Federal Government seems to be poised to send out checks to everyone.  Speaking only for myself, this is "found money" that I will not need for my personal health and wellbeing.

I comment:
True also for this humble correspondent. This “checks to everyone” at this time is a crass ploy to curry favor. It would do nothing for the economy and not much for most families.


Feel free to mail me your check; I'm up the road from you. 


The reality is that "most families" could really use an extra $2500 (assuming 1000 per adult and an average of one child).  That's rent and groceries and utilities and some carry-out/delivery food orders for a month, with a bit to spare depending on how expenses fall.  That is greatly impactful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 20, 2020, 02:19:52 PM
You are right, Keith.  The way to use this money will vary from family to family.  Again, it presents an opportunity for generosity for those of us who legitimately do not need the extra cash. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: JDB on March 20, 2020, 03:01:52 PM
Just my two cents and it's just an opinion: I think we need to rethink what we are doing. According to reports I've read, while COVID-19 has a higher degree of communicability than other viruses, its not as lethal as many others. The vast majority of deaths are among the very aged or individuals with pre-existing conditions, such as heart disease, diabetes, respiratory problems. Indeed, a Bloomberg report states that 99% of those dying in Italy had pre-existent conditions. Only 0.8% had no known prior medical problems. Of the 7 people under 40 who died, all had major medical problems. The fact of the matter is that most people will experience only mild or moderate symptoms and then recover.

I think such statistics tell us that we need to rethink our approach. While those in high risks categories should take special care- and while we should all take care with those in such categories- I believe that for the most part we should go on living life, maybe going the extra mile to keep everything clean and sanitary and reducing visitors and activities where necessary- such as nursing homes and senior centers.

Jeff Berndt
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 20, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
Just my two cents and it's just an opinion: I think we need to rethink what we are doing. According to reports I've read, while COVID-19 has a higher degree of communicability than other viruses, its not as lethal as many others. The vast majority of deaths are among the very aged or individuals with pre-existing conditions, such as heart disease, diabetes, respiratory problems. Indeed, a Bloomberg report states that 99% of those dying in Italy had pre-existent conditions. Only 0.8% had no known prior medical problems. Of the 7 people under 40 who died, all had major medical problems. The fact of the matter is that most people will experience only mild or moderate symptoms and then recover.

I think such statistics tell us that we need to rethink our approach. While those in high risks categories should take special care- and while we should all take care with those in such categories- I believe that for the most part we should go on living life, maybe going the extra mile to keep everything clean and sanitary and reducing visitors and activities where necessary- such as nursing homes and senior centers.


However, 38% of those hospitalized are under 55. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/19/younger-adults-are-large-percentage-coronavirus-hospitalizations-united-states-according-new-cdc-data/


Younger folks who catch the disease still fill up our hospitals even if it isn't deadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Michael Slusser on March 20, 2020, 04:58:34 PM
Indeed, Pr. Engebretson. Kind of reminds one of the comments by the irresponsible youth on the Florida beaches, demanding their freedom to party.

https://youtu.be/o_cImRzKXOs

BTW, Moorhead in Clay County is 69.3 miles from Crookston.

https://claycountymn.gov/DocumentCenter/View/9928/317-CCPH-1st-Confirmed-Case?bidId=

https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html
As the last of those links reminds us and we Minnesotans heard again from Gov. Walz's news conference this afternoon, one reason so many counties record no known cases of COVID19 is that no one there has been tested yet. The medical authorities have reason to think that there are hundreds or even thousands of Minnesotans who have the disease in its incubation phase, when they probably aren't feeling symptoms but they are already contagious. That's behind the requirement that restaurants and other gathering places throughout the state close for now.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on March 20, 2020, 05:13:34 PM
Exactly! E.g., here in the Bemidji area, we had a few busloads of Red Lake students go down to the Twin Cities for a BB tourney a couple of weeks ago. Let's see what happens in the community.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: JDB on March 20, 2020, 05:35:31 PM

Brian Stoffregen wrote:
However, 38% of those hospitalized are under 55. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/19/younger-adults-are-large-percentage-coronavirus-hospitalizations-united-states-according-new-cdc-data/


Younger folks who catch the disease still fill up our hospitals even if it isn't deadly.
[/quote]

I reply:
First, the article is defining "younger" as under 65 at times, which I find disingenuous. Nevertheless, how many of these have pre-existing conditions? What percent of that 38% have heart conditions, high blood pressure problems, obesity, diabetes, respiratory issue, etc.? By age 50- even earlier- these issues arise. I would like to see how many normally healthy individuals are having to be hospitalized.

Jeff Berndt
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 20, 2020, 05:37:16 PM
The Governor of Illinois has now issued a stay-at-home order effective 5 pm Saturday through the end of day Tuesday, April 7.

The Chicago Tribune has lifted its paywall on https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-coronavirus-what-is-shelter-in-place-20200320-rvyzf7h24ff5tfnvve5kz6g6b4-story.html.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 20, 2020, 05:39:14 PM
Just my two cents and it's just an opinion: I think we need to rethink what we are doing. According to reports I've read, while COVID-19 has a higher degree of communicability than other viruses, its not as lethal as many others. The vast majority of deaths are among the very aged or individuals with pre-existing conditions, such as heart disease, diabetes, respiratory problems. Indeed, a Bloomberg report states that 99% of those dying in Italy had pre-existent conditions. Only 0.8% had no known prior medical problems. Of the 7 people under 40 who died, all had major medical problems. The fact of the matter is that most people will experience only mild or moderate symptoms and then recover.

I think such statistics tell us that we need to rethink our approach. While those in high risks categories should take special care- and while we should all take care with those in such categories- I believe that for the most part we should go on living life, maybe going the extra mile to keep everything clean and sanitary and reducing visitors and activities where necessary- such as nursing homes and senior centers.

Jeff Berndt

Uh-oh.  Now you've done it.  You will be compared to irresponsible spring-breakers who just want to party!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 20, 2020, 06:18:37 PM
I agree.  I also agree that churches should voluntarily agree to this shutdown of gathering, but should not be coerced into it.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/18/draconian-coronavirus-closures-of-restaurants-thre/?fbclid=IwAR1hFLtuWb-6Q-l8SV03yrSCNqtEqxpYA2taZrA6Qhq_j2Gl1AF70Zi2Kek
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2020, 08:20:17 PM
Apparently in response to advice from the Minnesota governor and department of health, all common areas on our ranch have been shut down. This means the pool, fitness center, card room, library, sun room lounge, lobby lounge and auditorium. for the past week, gatherings in those places have been limited to 4 or six people. Our dining room and pub have been shut for a week; and we can order "room service" delivered to our apartments. This may pass in a week or two depending upon how the bugs prowl the state.
This new order imposes an additional hardship, but - as I noted before - we are not where bombs are falling or in refugee camp tents.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on March 20, 2020, 08:26:28 PM
That pig just flew over the deck!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 20, 2020, 09:11:15 PM
And the sad news for today is that the administration had warning that we were not prepared for pandemic. Apparently the Obama administration ran some scenarios that determined that we were ill prepared for a pandemic. The results of these scenarios were reported to the Trump administration which, one report said, ran a similar scenario last year. So the administration knew we were not prepared.
Add to that the president’s refusal to take the situation seriously, until very recently, when he declared that he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else.
And rather than answering a serious question from a reporter today, he simply attacked the reporter. Others questioned him about his lighthearted approach to the situation and he said he had a “feeling“ that things were getting better. The doctor present, the only person there I would trust,  had to first bow down to the presidents words, but very carefully said he had to see the situation As a scientist, and would go by facts, not feeling.
The chaos in the White House, and this man’s egotistical, inept “leadership” is now costing lives and may ruin the lives of many people.
“The buck stops here.” Remember Harry Truman? He had that sign on his desk.
This guy? Nope.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 20, 2020, 10:20:45 PM
Two seminary classmates of mine, Bob and Kathy Eddy, live in Randolph, VT, and have recently been diagnosed with Covid-19. Bob wrote about in the Randolph Herald, for which he has worked for several years. Worth a read:  https://www.ourherald.com/articles/stuck-at-home-with-covid-19/ (https://www.ourherald.com/articles/stuck-at-home-with-covid-19/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 20, 2020, 10:42:41 PM
The Governor of Illinois has now issued a stay-at-home order effective 5 pm Saturday through the end of day Tuesday, April 7.


Ever think about switching to the Orthodox Pascha calendar?

Our Palm Sunday is April 12 this year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 20, 2020, 11:06:53 PM
One thing a quarantine is good for is movie marathons.

In The Two Towers, there is a famous scene in which Aragorn attempts to rally the ragtag band of peasants defending Helm's Deep against a massive siege of orcs. Make no mistake, those peasants have little, if anything, in common with Aragorn personally. He is a descendant of ancient kings, a friend to all royalty, and in general a big deal. They are a bunch of old men and young boys who may or may not have even been off the farm before being herded into a mountain fortress and given weapons and shields. 

At one point Legolas the Elf rebukes Aragorn for offering false security, for painting too rosy a picture, for not being realistic. He comes right out and says, "They're all going to die," to which Aragorn responds sharply, "Then I shall die as one of them!" Eventually, Legolas apologizes.

I think that's what many people see in Trump. He expresses solidarity with normal people. He isn't one of them, but he respects them rather than condescending to them. By conescending, I mean explaining to them that what they see as the problems are really problems with themselves, their worldview, their lack of intersectional sympathies, their rah-rah patriotism, their churches, etc. Many other politicians say all the right things about the working man's honor and greatness etc. but they don't think like those common people, which is the only solidarity that matters. The common person feels condescended to by a New York Billionaire like Mike Bloomberg, who offers nanny state solutions to solve all the poor blighters' problems. But they don't feel condescended to by a New York billionaire like Trump, who sings the poor blighters' tune and affirms that their gut instincts are correct. Listening to a regular, honorable tradesman go on a tirade about this or that, Trump would respond, "Damn straight!" A progressive would not say anything without giving the distinct impression they'd be apologizing to their friends later for any perceived solidarity with such people and their wretchedly wrong opinions.

The news today says that the DNC is preparing a social media campaign depicting Trump initially hemming and hawing about how serious this was before finally taking action. I predict that campaign backfires spectacularly and ends up amounting to paid advertising for Trump. Because the fact of the matter is that the normal American citizen is/was skeptical of overblown predictions but eventually goes along with it. So when normal people (as opposed to targeted groups who were always going to vote Democrat no matter what) see these ads, they're just going to think, almost subconsciously, that yep, Trump called it just like I would have called it. He did what needed to be done, but he never gave up his gut optimism about America and gut distrust of China, the NYT, and global demands for panic.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 21, 2020, 09:49:27 AM
As I prepare for my live streamed service tomorrow I realize that this is a unique experience in more ways than just the changed setting.  I am addressing my flock at a time of national crisis.  At this point our immediate area is not identified as being infected with the coronavirus.  But we know it's coming; it may already be here and we just don't know.  We hear the national reports.  We know cities and states are closing down in response to strict "shelter at place" orders.  Our state has incrementally limited our interactions and we know this is probably next. 

Tomorrow's Gospel reading in the three year series for Lent 4 is the healing of the man born blind in John 9.  While we do not want to manipulate the text to simply be a message directed to a national crisis, this story still has a message for such a time as this. It contains themes of how we choose to see God and his mercy or how we distort the picture of who God is.  The disciples begin by musing on the sin that could have caused God to specifically punish this man with blindness, even from birth.  The Pharisees and other Jews refuse to believe that the man had actually been blind and thus healed. They are blind to the work of God right in front of them. So they discipline the once blind man by expelling him from the synagogue, attempting to remove him from fellowship with God's people and from hearing God's word.  In stubborn unbelief they conclude that Jesus is no more than a common sinner.  The once blind man, however, not only has his physical eyes healed, he is given faith and worships Jesus. He is excluded in one way and included in another. Banished from the synagogue he is welcomed into the true Temple. The Lord concludes by noting that He has come into the world that the "blind will see and those who see will be blind."  The Pharisees cannot see their own spiritual blindness and thus their guilt remains. They close their eyes, both physical and spiritual, to what God is doing in Jesus.  They cannot see the mercy of God being played out before them, and see only a hollow and sterile law that condemns.

A crisis such as ours brings out fear in people, and in that fear they either turn in faith to the God who delivers and preserves, or they turn within themselves in denial and self-preservation.  We are seeing both as this drama unfolds.  Incredible acts of selflessness to ones neighbor, both in the epicenter of the hospitals as well as in communities responding to people's simple needs of food -  and deeply saddening acts of selfishness as people hoard and thus take from their neighbor.  The are blind to a God who is merciful even to sinners. 

As death looms over the future people may dread what is coming, even if it never arrives.  They desperately need to know that the God in the midst of this suffering is a truly merciful and loving God.  The man who is healed becomes the recipient of God's mercy, but that does not end his suffering.  He is removed from God's house of prayer by people who refuse to believe in the savior who delivered him.  He is confronted by hate and blind unbelief.  Yet, he does not appear bitter - or fearful.  He is amazed at the 'blindness' of his detractors.  How can they not 'see' what he now sees?  How can they not see the acts of a merciful God played out so clearly in his healing?  Why do they shut their eyes to this divine act of love?

In the midst of this crisis we need to continue to 'see' the work of our merciful God in faith, even if seemingly 'hidden' at times under pain and suffering and human indifference.  We must continue to see it as God comes to us through His Son in Word and Sacrament to feed us the Bread of Life for our salvation and strength of faith to endure.  Even remotely through artificial means of technology they will see our faces and hear our voices and know that God still speaks.  He is not silent.  He is not inactive.  He has not left us alone.  God is here and He remains merciful to sinners just like you and me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2020, 10:02:05 AM
As I prepare for my live streamed service tomorrow I realize that this is a unique experience in more ways than just the changed setting.  I am addressing my flock at a time of national crisis.  At this point our immediate area is not identified as being infected with the coronavirus.  But we know it's coming; it may already be here and we just don't know.  We hear the national reports.  We know cities and states are closing down in response to strict "shelter at place" orders.  Our state has incrementally limited our interactions and we know this is probably next. 

Tomorrow's Gospel reading in the three year series for Lent 4 is the healing of the man born blind in John 9.  While we do not want to manipulate the text to simply be a message directed to a national crisis, this story still has a message for such a time as this. It contains themes of how we choose to see God and his mercy or how we distort the picture of who God is.  The disciples begin by musing on the sin that could have caused God to specifically punish this man with blindness, even from birth.  The Pharisees and other Jews refuse to believe that the man had actually been blind and thus healed. They are blind to the work of God right in front of them. So they discipline the once blind man by expelling him from the synagogue, attempting to remove him from fellowship with God's people and from hearing God's word.  In stubborn unbelief they conclude that Jesus is no more than a common sinner.  The once blind man, however, not only has his physical eyes healed, he is given faith and worships Jesus. He is excluded in one way and included in another. Banished from the synagogue he is welcomed into the true Temple. The Lord concludes by noting that He has come into the world that the "blind will see and those who see will be blind."  The Pharisees cannot see their own spiritual blindness and thus their guilt remains. They close their eyes, both physical and spiritual, to what God is doing in Jesus.  They cannot see the mercy of God being played out before them, and see only a hollow and sterile law that condemns.

A crisis such as ours brings out fear in people, and in that fear they either turn in faith to the God who delivers and preserves, or they turn within themselves in denial and self-preservation.  We are seeing both as this drama unfolds.  Incredible acts of selflessness to ones neighbor, both in the epicenter of the hospitals as well as in communities responding to people's simple needs of food -  and deeply saddening acts of selfishness as people hoard and thus take from their neighbor.  The are blind to a God who is merciful even to sinners. 

As death looms over the future people may dread what is coming, even if it never arrives.  They desperately need to know that the God in the midst of this suffering is a truly merciful and loving God.  The man who is healed becomes the recipient of God's mercy, but that does not end his suffering.  He is removed from God's house of prayer by people who refuse to believe in the savior who delivered him.  He is confronted by hate and blind unbelief.  Yet, he does not appear bitter - or fearful.  He is amazed at the 'blindness' of his detractors.  How can they not 'see' what he now sees?  How can they not see the acts of a merciful God played out so clearly in his healing?  Why do they shut their eyes to this divine act of love?

In the midst of this crisis we need to continue to 'see' the work of our merciful God in faith, even if seemingly 'hidden' at times under pain and suffering and human indifference.  We must continue to see it as God comes to us through His Son in Word and Sacrament to feed us the Bread of Life for our salvation and strength of faith to endure.  Even remotely through artificial means of technology they will see our faces and hear our voices and know that God still speaks.  He is not silent.  He is not inactive.  He has not left us alone.  God is here and He remains merciful to sinners just like you and me.

Thanks for this, Don - we're in the same boat here in NY, with the same merciful God taking care of us on the highly overcrowded and infectious side of the ship.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2020, 11:29:11 AM
New York governor Cuomo for president! Here is a man who knows how to lead and who knows how to talk and inspire and inform people. Is it too late to get him to run?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 21, 2020, 11:59:20 AM
He's been on the news a lot lately, using many words to say very little.  He talks like he likes to hear himself talk. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2020, 12:08:59 PM
But did you listen to what he has to say? I doubt that you did. The governor was giving out considerable amount of information, and offering honest words of inspiration and warning.
BTW - Beloved spouse wonders why the president and vice president are even allowed to be in the same building together, let alone standing shoulder to shoulder. Shouldn’t they be completely separated?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 21, 2020, 12:12:14 PM
New York governor Cuomo for president! Here is a man who knows how to lead and who knows how to talk and inspire and inform people. Is it too late to get him to run?

With a daughter in New York, I've watched Cuomo as well; I still give higher marks to our California Governor Newsom. Cuomo seems to me a little too scoldy. Newsom is more winsome and encouraging. (And I repeat that I've never been a fan of his.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Agreed, but maybe we need a little bit of scoldy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 21, 2020, 12:39:31 PM
But did you listen to what he has to say? I doubt that you did. The governor was giving out considerable amount of information, and offering honest words of inspiration and warning.
BTW - Beloved spouse wonders why the president and vice president are even allowed to be in the same building together, let alone standing shoulder to shoulder. Shouldn’t they be completely separated?

Of course I listened to what he said.  He talks like he thinks he's our mommy.  Come to think of it, he ~would~ be the perfect Democrat nominee for president! 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 21, 2020, 12:50:32 PM
Beloved spouse also thinks the president should show solidarity with the people by quarantining himself in the residential part of the White House, no going out, no person to person meetings. He should be living as we are.
Pastor Preus, we need a mommy we need a father we need someone who truly cares about us and wants to keep us safe and tell us how to keep safe. People, especially young people, are doing idiotic things that do not help.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 21, 2020, 12:54:47 PM
Here in the center of the coronavirus storm, the citizenry is overwhelmingly happy with Governor Cuomo's response.  Our health care workers absolutely must have masks/gowns and equipment that protects them as they serve people who are infected hour by hour.  And right now, they are almost completely out of masks.  That can't happen - it's an order of magnitude 10 on a 10 point scale.  Next is the hospital overcrowding.  Yes - we will be forced off the streets for awhile.  But the streets are not safe.  That's not based on estimates or curves, but on people in the hospitals. 

Another crisis is that of mental and emotional health.  And that is only beginning to unfold.

Dave Benke

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pasgolf on March 22, 2020, 06:21:23 PM
https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-top-10-lies-about-president-trumps-response-to-the-coronavirus/

Check them out and come to your own conclusion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 22, 2020, 08:45:04 PM
Once an English major, always an English major, hence this small diversion.
On several occasions, William Shakespeare had to flee the plague, including one that closed all the theaters in London. It was a deadly bubonic plague, the kind that often ravaged Europe in those times.
So, with apologies to the bard, I have “appropriated” one of his most famous sonnets and turned the love-poem into a scorn-poem addressed to the COVID Virus. Some will recognize the sonnet - #18 – a love poem beginning “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?”  My feeble efforts preserve the meter and rhyme scheme of the classic Elizabethan sonnet, and most of his rhyming syllables.
He did not title the sonnets. I call this one,”To COVID”

Shall we compare you to a summer’s day?
No! You blow wild with heat intemperate.
Rough winds are yours and shake the buds of May
While summer’s breezes are a blessed fate.
With you too hot the eye of sickness shines
And often is our happy vision dimmed
As friendly commerce and good sport declines
To save us from your oft assailing whim.
But our deservéd summer will not fade
Nor lose the many gifts that God bestows.
Nor shall we always live in darkest shade
We search for truth and knowledge always grows.
     So long as we can breathe and eyes can see
     So long lives hope, and this hope sets us free. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 22, 2020, 10:25:51 PM
https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-top-10-lies-about-president-trumps-response-to-the-coronavirus/

Check them out and come to your own conclusion.

I've come to the conclusion that one here who constantly fear mongers and spreads several of the top ten lies, will likely not be changed.  It'll be business as usual.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 22, 2020, 11:39:59 PM
🥴 🙀🐊
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 23, 2020, 11:28:18 AM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 23, 2020, 12:22:52 PM
With all the concentration on the health affects of this virus, there is little to no real news about the coming economic fallout.  According to Goldman-Sachs they predict the US GDP will shrink 24% next quarter amid the coronavirus pandemic and that could therefore be 2.5 times bigger than any decline in history.  The economic effects could be just as jarring to our churches as the virus itself.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24 (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John_Hannah on March 23, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
Indeed, the economic impact on the nation (world) are likely to be profound. It's unimaginable in its breadth.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 23, 2020, 12:51:24 PM
With all the concentration on the health affects of this virus, there is little to no real news about the coming economic fallout.  According to Goldman-Sachs they predict the US GDP will shrink 24% next quarter amid the coronavirus pandemic and that could therefore be 2.5 times bigger than any decline in history.  The economic effects could be just as jarring to our churches as the virus itself.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24 (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24)
Indiana now on stay-at-home orders, but interpreted pretty loosely as not going out for any unimportant reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 23, 2020, 12:54:43 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

The Governors (and Hierarchs) fail to understand that not everyone has access to the latest technology, including access to broadband internet capable of supporting live-streaming.

The digital divide is greatest among the elderly and those living in rural areas.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Rob Morris on March 23, 2020, 01:03:13 PM
With all the concentration on the health affects of this virus, there is little to no real news about the coming economic fallout.  According to Goldman-Sachs they predict the US GDP will shrink 24% next quarter amid the coronavirus pandemic and that could therefore be 2.5 times bigger than any decline in history.  The economic effects could be just as jarring to our churches as the virus itself.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24 (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24)
Indiana now on stay-at-home orders, but interpreted pretty loosely as not going out for any unimportant reason.

Governor Lamont issued his list of Essential activities last night, and - thanks be to God - religious services (under 50 in size) is on the list! I was completely surprised, as up till now CT has followed NY's lead almost exactly.

So at least for now, the state of CT has agreed that religious services are essential (not words I thought I would ever type). And worshipping will not be a Class D felony after all(also not words I ever expected to type).

We thank God for our freedom of worship frequently in our congregational prayers, but I don't know if I have ever cheered out loud for it like I did last night when I read the governor's list.

For the rest of you for whom the news has not been so good, God grant you wisdom, courage, and comfort.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 23, 2020, 01:28:56 PM

Governor Lamont issued his list of Essential activities last night, and - thanks be to God - religious services (under 50 in size) is on the list! I was completely surprised, as up till now CT has followed NY's lead almost exactly.

So at least for now, the state of CT has agreed that religious services are essential (not words I thought I would ever type). And worshipping will not be a Class D felony after all(also not words I ever expected to type).


Even the more draconian Governors have allowed movement for food procurement and pharmacy.

I do not expect public officials to grasp the pharmacuetical value of the Eucharist as "the medicine of immortality" but even the simplest can understand that Christ's offering is "food indeed".
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 23, 2020, 01:40:10 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

The Governors (and Hierarchs) fail to understand that not everyone has access to the latest technology, including access to broadband internet capable of supporting live-streaming.

The digital divide is greatest among the elderly and those living in rural areas.

This is, indeed, a huge challenge for ministry.  It's one thing to try and connect with people 'virtually,' but another to reduce that to simply mailing them a copy of your sermon, or talking on the phone.  And talking on the phone is further complicated by the fact that some of my people have severe hearing loss.  One member, age 99, can read well, but really has a hard time hearing even when you are standing right next to him. His wife also has difficulty hearing and seeing.  At least in church they were physically connected with the body of Christ and the Bread of Life. 

**One point for those who have members who have access to a computer and the internet but do not do Facebook or have a Facebook account.  If you live stream your service through FB, simply copy the link address of that video and send it to the people who have access to the internet.  They do not have to have an account to access it. They should just paste it into the address bar and hit enter.

The link address should look like mine - E.g.: https://www.facebook.com/stpeterpolar/videos/1107346419607571/
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 23, 2020, 01:46:19 PM
With all the concentration on the health affects of this virus, there is little to no real news about the coming economic fallout.  According to Goldman-Sachs they predict the US GDP will shrink 24% next quarter amid the coronavirus pandemic and that could therefore be 2.5 times bigger than any decline in history.  The economic effects could be just as jarring to our churches as the virus itself.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24 (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/us-gdp-drop-record-2q-amid-coronavirus-recession-goldman-sachs-2020-3-1029018308?fbclid=iwar1yb-gcmj5x8rr11yczzrlj_thsbajovkv90yj3bsban5t2hjjujyewx24)
Indiana now on stay-at-home orders, but interpreted pretty loosely as not going out for any unimportant reason.

Governor Lamont issued his list of Essential activities last night, and - thanks be to God - religious services (under 50 in size) is on the list! I was completely surprised, as up till now CT has followed NY's lead almost exactly.

So at least for now, the state of CT has agreed that religious services are essential (not words I thought I would ever type). And worshipping will not be a Class D felony after all(also not words I ever expected to type).

We thank God for our freedom of worship frequently in our congregational prayers, but I don't know if I have ever cheered out loud for it like I did last night when I read the governor's list.

For the rest of you for whom the news has not been so good, God grant you wisdom, courage, and comfort.

That's a big differential.  We're in a middle zone, neither essential or unessential, but are discouraged from gatherings of over 10 and that's about to go down.  The real question, and we have experience of it here in the corona virus hub/epicenter, is whether it is wise or prudent to gather groups of say 40 or 50.  The answer here is a definite No. 

Our ecumenical/interfaith community organization met by Zoom this morning, and the stories of large gatherings being immediately called off because of those who are testing positive/quarantined/in the hospital were numerous.  Myself and our head trustee had to go to Home Depot this morning because of an immediate issue with our doors, and we waited on a six foot coned line in the rain in order to get in, and then self-checked out.  At the same time we were handling a lot of items, which still put us at risk.  So it goes today - every action leads to second guessing.  And prayer.

By the way, I did preach a bit yesterday on who's essential and non-essential to God.  And whether God is essential.  The Divine Service is an Essential Service in every possible way, so not conducting it is essentially hurtful.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 23, 2020, 02:20:22 PM

**One point for those who have members who have access to a computer and the internet but do not do Facebook or have a Facebook account.  If you live stream your service through FB, simply copy the link address of that video and send it to the people who have access to the internet.  They do not have to have an account to access it. They should just paste it into the address bar and hit enter.

The link address should look like mine - E.g.: https://www.facebook.com/stpeterpolar/videos/1107346419607571/

Need to be clear, though, that one not signed on to Facebook needs the exact URL of the live stream/video to see it.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 23, 2020, 02:26:49 PM

**One point for those who have members who have access to a computer and the internet but do not do Facebook or have a Facebook account.  If you live stream your service through FB, simply copy the link address of that video and send it to the people who have access to the internet.  They do not have to have an account to access it. They should just paste it into the address bar and hit enter.

The link address should look like mine - E.g.: https://www.facebook.com/stpeterpolar/videos/1107346419607571/

Need to be clear, though, that one not signed on to Facebook needs the exact URL of the live stream/video to see it.

Pax, Steven+

Steven,

Would my link in that form work?  Or do I need a different one?  If so, how might I go about determining it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Rob Morris on March 23, 2020, 02:38:40 PM

**One point for those who have members who have access to a computer and the internet but do not do Facebook or have a Facebook account.  If you live stream your service through FB, simply copy the link address of that video and send it to the people who have access to the internet.  They do not have to have an account to access it. They should just paste it into the address bar and hit enter.

The link address should look like mine - E.g.: https://www.facebook.com/stpeterpolar/videos/1107346419607571/

Need to be clear, though, that one not signed on to Facebook needs the exact URL of the live stream/video to see it.

Pax, Steven+

Steven,

Would my link in that form work?  Or do I need a different one?  If so, how might I go about determining it?

FWIW - YouTube is free, searchable, and the links always take you where you need to go. Also, if my experience is representative, you don't have to monitor the comments section nearly as much.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: D. Engebretson on March 23, 2020, 02:39:27 PM
I answered my own question.

To get the url address, right click on the video itself.  A popup window will appear with the option "Show Video URL."  I copied that and it is the same as the one I just posted. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 23, 2020, 02:41:18 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

So of course now businesses will declare themselves to be "essential" and stay open.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 23, 2020, 02:48:42 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

So of course now businesses will declare themselves to be "essential" and stay open.

Pennsylvania's order, issued last Monday, tightened on Thursday, and clamped down today included a very explicit list of what are deemed "life preserving" business.  The list is published on the Pennsylvania Department of Economic and Community Development website.

Some of it makes no sense.

Steel making and power plants are deemed "life preserving" but coal mining is not.

Paper production is deemed "life preserving" but timber and pulpwood production is not.

Unsurprisingly, by Sunday the Commonwealth had been flooded with over 10,000 requests from businesses seeking exemptions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on March 23, 2020, 05:30:43 PM
Here is a rough video we released to help our people practice social distancing and gather safely. It worked well on Sunday.

https://youtu.be/yERJ73hcj9c
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 23, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

So of course now businesses will declare themselves to be "essential" and stay open.

As I expected, the company I work for and the company my wife works for are both indicating that they are "essential".  I'll find out from my son when he gets home from work tonight if his is also "essential".

Still not as bad as it could be.  I've been working at home for over a week now and my wife has some banked time she's going to use.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 23, 2020, 07:36:30 PM
I challenge people to find any bits of truth in the words the president just spoke concerning the future of this pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 23, 2020, 07:43:38 PM
I challenge people to find any bits of truth in the words the president just spoke concerning the future of this pandemic.
I challenge people to find any bits of value in your persistent fact-free diatribes.


Hint:  There are none.



Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 23, 2020, 08:24:32 PM
I challenge people to find any bits of truth in the words the president just spoke concerning the future of this pandemic.
I didn't see it live, but the gist I gathered from a few articles and clips was that he was optimistic about the disruption being on the shorter rather than the longer end of the spectrum and said, "We're going to win this battle." Is it your opinion that we're going to lose? If anything, he and Cuomo sound like they say pretty much the same things, or at least try to adopt the same attitude by projecting confidence.

Hillaire Belloc once ran for the House of Commons and someone asked him whether he thought he could win as a Roman Catholic in his district. He answered by saying that if not, the people would have spared him the embarrassment of representing such a district. I think any leader worthy of the United States would be deeply, deeply humiliated at the thought of representing a constituency who says whiny, panicky nonsense like "We need a mommy" about the federal government.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 23, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Once again, Peter, different worlds, we live in different worlds.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 23, 2020, 08:34:46 PM
Governor Evers has issued his own "safer-at-home" order shutting down all non-essential services in the state of Wisconsin.  I knew it was only a matter of time and predicted it would happen this week after Illinois had their 'shelter-at-home' order.  Well, there went my little Friday morning Bible class.  The last part of my ministry that wasn't remote.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/23/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-issues-safer-place-order/2897821001/)

So of course now businesses will declare themselves to be "essential" and stay open.

As I expected, the company I work for and the company my wife works for are both indicating that they are "essential".  I'll find out from my son when he gets home from work tonight if his is also "essential".

Still not as bad as it could be.  I've been working at home for over a week now and my wife has some banked time she's going to use.

Sure enough, my son says he is still working.  I guess that means Lube Techs are essential.  (It's a summer job -- he says he's a grease monkey.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 23, 2020, 08:38:43 PM
Speaking of different worlds, here is an excellent article from First Things linked via realclearreligion

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/03/creation-fall-and-coronavirus
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 23, 2020, 08:40:51 PM
Once again, Peter, different worlds, we live in different worlds.
I guess so. In my world, people who need their political leader to be their mommy are unworthy of self-government. In yours, they are a voice of reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 23, 2020, 09:30:30 PM
Once again, Peter, different worlds, we live in different worlds.

So we're all going to die of the Kung Flu before Pentecost?

Even I was able to honestly say respectful things of our previous Presiding Bishop in 2009.  I am thankful, Charles, to not live in your tiny, hopeless world.

Christe eleison, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 23, 2020, 09:35:22 PM
Here in our part of Minnesota, Peter, we are learning from experience that the president’s cheery optimism, minimizing of the dangers, Speaking of a ‘treatment” are simply dangerous lies.
What the president said about what industries are doing is already been proven false.
At this time, Steven, when the number of deaths in spreading, you make a joke?
I am not at all hopeless. I’m one of the most hopeful people around. But I put no confidence in this president and his “leadership.” I see no reason to respect him. I do respect the scientists.
But I’ll try to sign off this discussion. You people with unquestioning and uncritical support the president is simply too disturbing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on March 23, 2020, 10:12:56 PM
Speaking of different worlds, here is an excellent article from First Things linked via realclearreligion

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/03/creation-fall-and-coronavirus

A very thought provoking article.

In Orthodox Orthros, as well as the Paraklesis and Salutations services we sing Old Testament Odes.  Odes Seven and Eight from the Book of Daniel are, of course, products of the Babylonian Exile.  C.C. Pecknold's descriptions of Babylon's falsehoods will be somewhere in the recesses of my mind on Wednesday morning as we reach those Odes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 23, 2020, 10:40:37 PM
One of the reasons that I am hopeful is that I am reminded by some smart people that, when it comes to fighting this virus, our foolish president is in many ways not in charge.
   The governors of New York and California have authority over larger segments of the economy than he does.
   The governors or county executives or mayors of our states and localities have more authority over how the population should or must respond than he does.
   The governors do not speak based on a "hunch" or their "feelings" or from some outer-space "I'm-a-smart-guy" position.
   The governors speak and act after listening to experts, after consulting scientists, after walking through their own territory, after talking to their people and they speak with experience, emphathy and honest concern for people rather than "the economy" or some vague concept of a "country" that is "not built to shut down."  (Our president would not say, when asked directly, whether he would follow the advice of his medical advisors.) We are hearing how the President's medical advisors have to tread lightly and diplomatically with their comments, rather than simply saying "No, Mr. President, that's wrong." Or when he says one thing at 5:14 p.m. and something contradictory at 5:22.
   China warned in December that they were treating a difficult, unknown virus. In January, we knew it was in this country. January 30, the WHO declared a world health crisis.
   Meanwhile, our president minimized the threat, spoke only of the economy, business, the stock market and took no action. He had a "hunch" that the projections of the CDC were wrong. (Some weeks later, he would say he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else.) But as noted above, this doesn't really matter because he doesn't control anything.
And the news tonight, on the television behind me as I type this, is the report that Republicans in Congress see this as an "economic crisis" not a "health crisis."
   The bill under discussion spends money on businesses - including, according to some, Trump businesses - as well as on the medical field. Discussion now underway is focusing on proper transparency and accountability for the funds allocated, so that it is not a fund that the President's toady Secretary of the Treasury can give away, and not even reveal who gets it until six months later.
   Hopeful, I am, and comforted I am, when I think that he is not really "in charge." Then why do I worry? Because he is the President and because many people listen to him and believe him. And if they follow his line of thought, they may die.
  P.S. And if the bill finally passed would give some assistance to a Trump business, the president should refuse that assistance. It would violate the law, I think, of a president earning money outside the presidency.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 23, 2020, 11:16:53 PM
Here in our part of Minnesota, Peter, we are learning from experience that the president’s cheery optimism, minimizing of the dangers, Speaking of a ‘treatment” are simply dangerous lies.
What the president said about what industries are doing is already been proven false.
At this time, Steven, when the number of deaths in spreading, you make a joke?
I am not at all hopeless. I’m one of the most hopeful people around. But I put no confidence in this president and his “leadership.” I see no reason to respect him. I do respect the scientists.
But I’ll try to sign off this discussion. You people with unquestioning and uncritical support the president is simply too disturbing.
Far LESS disturbing than your almost daily despicable screeds against the President and those with whom you disagree.


You admit you live in a different world than many of us.  NO one disagrees with you.  Share your dismay for the president with your wife ... unless she is more put off with your negativity than we are.


You refuse to listen to or believe that there are 'treatments' being tried with some success, but to refer to 'treatments' as "lies" is itself a despicable lie ... tragically you probably are aware of it .. yet continue to fiddle your tune.


Perhaps you should spend more time praying for rulers an all in authority than you spend on your countless endless screeds.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 23, 2020, 11:19:21 PM
Here in our part of Minnesota, Peter, we are learning from experience that the president’s cheery optimism, minimizing of the dangers, Speaking of a ‘treatment” are simply dangerous lies.
What the president said about what industries are doing is already been proven false.
At this time, Steven, when the number of deaths in spreading, you make a joke?
I am not at all hopeless. I’m one of the most hopeful people around. But I put no confidence in this president and his “leadership.” I see no reason to respect him. I do respect the scientists.
But I’ll try to sign off this discussion. You people with unquestioning and uncritical support the president is simply too disturbing.

That (your "signing off this discussion") did not last too long.  One hour and 5 minutes. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 23, 2020, 11:35:10 PM
Someone writes
You admit you live in a different world than many of us.
I comment:
Pay attention. I said I believe it I live in a different world than the one Peter lives in. With other folks here, I happily share turf.

Someone writes:
Share your dismay for the president your wife ... unless she is more put off with your negativity than we are.
I comment:
Hoo hah! Beloved spouse has always been more furious than I about the president and for considerably more reasons, not the least of which is his attitude towards and treatment of women. Do you want to hear a screed? You should hear what I hear from her.
Negativity? It’s not negativity to point out that the car you’re riding in is heading for a ditch.
And as noted upstream, this humble correspondent is considerably hopeful, and even happy. But not about everything.
P.S. I pray for the president every single day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 24, 2020, 12:03:03 AM
Strange how the governors or New York and California, both Democrats in deep blue states, have generally spoken positively about president's leadership in this, though not without nuanced disagreement. They must not know much about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 05:13:17 AM
One has to throw some compliment towards the White House to avoid the nasty Tweets and not feed the petulant, ego-driven anger of the beast.
If a 3-year old prone to tantrums starts hitting his sister or kicking the dog, one might say “Well, Donny, you did such a good job cleaning your plate at dinner!” While you gently remove the sister or the pooch away from his fists and feet.
Or you say “you know, Donny, I don’t think you’re the kind of boy who does that.” When you know he is. But, eager for attention, little Donny is distracted, and the situation improves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 24, 2020, 08:43:23 AM
One has to throw some compliment towards the White House to avoid the nasty Tweets and not feed the petulant, ego-driven anger of the beast.

Hmmm. Yet the governor of Illinois, another Democrat leading a large, blue state, does no such thing, but publicly derides the president's leadership in this. So you're saying he is foolish to do so?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 24, 2020, 09:02:14 AM
You people with unquestioning and uncritical support the president is simply too disturbing.

<sigh!>
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 10:07:11 AM
These are complicated times, Peter, and often the actions of individuals cannot be explained.
You seek cold logic and consistency. Those things do not always apply.
I keep pondering why some in this modest forum, whom I believe to be intelligent, sensible, perceptive people, hold opinions I find inconsistent, illogical and incomprehensible; and whose eagerness to defend The president and his actions I simply do not understand.
You are an exception, because, as I have said often, I do not believe we share the same planet.
A long phone conversation yesterday with another occasional participant in this forum suggests that I’m not the only one who feels that way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 24, 2020, 10:40:43 AM
Charles:

Please keep your promise and sign off on this discussion.  Most people are discussing.  You are not. 

The very fact that you post 4 times AFTER claiming you were going to sign off says it all.

I can't keep up with the half truths in everything you write, nor do I want to. 

As to "beloved spouse," sounds like you were MFEO, so screed away between the two of you.  I (and many here) are sick of hearing it.  I'll just go back to blindly defending everything the president does (at least in your eyes)  ::) ???

You people with unquestioning and uncritical support the president is simply too disturbing.

<sigh!>

well said.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Voelker on March 24, 2020, 10:41:24 AM
feels
Here's the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 11:38:17 AM
ok, James Eivan, but until I get some verification, I Still think it’s a phony name. And, based on some textual criticism, I even have some suspicions as to who you might be.
But carry-on. The diversion about this kind of deception is probably not worth the trouble unless we cared about keeping the forum truly open and honest and populated by people of integrity.
Hi, James Eivan! How is your quarantine going?  ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 24, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
These are complicated times, Peter, and often the actions of individuals cannot be explained.
You seek cold logic and consistency. Those things do not always apply.
I keep pondering why some in this modest forum, whom I believe to be intelligent, sensible, perceptive people, hold opinions I find inconsistent, illogical and incomprehensible; and whose eagerness to defend The president and his actions I simply do not understand.
You are an exception, because, as I have said often, I do not believe we share the same planet.
A long phone conversation yesterday with another occasional participant in this forum suggests that I’m not the only one who feels that way.
Eagerness to defend the president from attack in a time of crisis is much easier to explain charitably than eagerness to attack the president. I don't think anyone ever brings him up out of the blue except to respond to your almost maniacal obsession and hatred (just admit it, it is hatred) of him. Stop attacking him and no on will defend him. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 24, 2020, 11:43:11 AM
These are complicated times, Peter, and often the actions of individuals cannot be explained.
You seek cold logic and consistency. Those things do not always apply.
I keep pondering why some in this modest forum, whom I believe to be intelligent, sensible, perceptive people, hold opinions I find inconsistent, illogical and incomprehensible; and whose eagerness to defend The president and his actions I simply do not understand.
You are an exception, because, as I have said often, I do not believe we share the same planet.
A long phone conversation yesterday with another occasional participant in this forum suggests that I’m not the only one who feels that way.

Well Charlie, that may be the case. But you have this tendency to engage in behavior here that we know not to let by in the parish. “People are talking” “There have been complaints.”

Is part of your anger at POTUS the fact that you see in him that which you dislike in your own character-  a bully?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 24, 2020, 12:04:56 PM
ok, James Eivan, but until I get some verification, I Still think it’s a phony name. And, based on some textual criticism, I even have some suspicions as to who you might be.
But carry-on. The diversion about this kind of deception is probably not worth the trouble unless we cared about keeping the forum truly open and honest and populated by people of integrity.
Hi, James Eivan! How is your quarantine going?  ;)

You are one sick puppy.  Does he have to send you a copy of his drivers license?  Fingerprints?  Note from his mommy?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Linda on March 24, 2020, 12:06:33 PM
Oh January 14th, WHO tweeted that there was no clear proof of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus.  The Chinese government knew the virus was spreading before that tweet was sent. 

Linda
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 24, 2020, 12:14:41 PM

Someone writes:
Share your dismay for the president your wife ... unless she is more put off with your negativity than we are.
I comment:
Hoo hah! ...

I don't know if you emulate Donald Trump or if he emulates you.  But on this forum, your personas are so alike...

Kyrie eleison,
Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 12:18:33 PM
Pastor Bohler, I first went online in 1983. In those early days and ever since the presence in certain forums of people with phony identities has been a serious problem. And it has expanded in very extreme ways in recent years.
I can see a couple reasons for people wanting to remain anonymous. But anonymity should not be generally allowed in a forum such as this one. We are supposed to be fellow Lutherans, fellow Christians discussing our concerns in a brotherly and sisterly way.
But my views here do not prevail. I understand that. When necessary, I shall call that particular poster by the name posted.
Happy now?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 24, 2020, 12:42:52 PM
Pastor Bohler, I first went online in 1983. In those early days and ever since the presence in certain forums of people with phony identities has been a serious problem. And it has expanded in very extreme ways in recent years.
I can see a couple reasons for people wanting to remain anonymous. But anonymity should not be generally allowed in a forum such as this one. We are supposed to be fellow Lutherans, fellow Christians discussing our concerns in a brotherly and sisterly way.
But my views here do not prevail. I understand that. When necessary, I shall call that particular poster by the name posted.
Happy now?

No.  I know all about your dislike for anonymous posters and pseudonyms.  But that is NOT what I am talking about here.  I am talking about your obsession -- with NO evidence or reason that you have given -- with the notion that this particular poster is not using his real name.  I am talking about your basically calling that person a liar on this site, with no grounds.  And, when you are called on it, every time you refuse to admit that you have done anything wrong.  You just keep on doing it.  In fact, you have as much as told us that you are cyber-stalking this individual, seeking to "prove" his identity.  But you never reveal anything.  Yet you persist in your pursuit of the white whale.  It is the same thing we saw with the weird claims of a "Main Nag" and mobbing in the Church and attempts to link that to a person posting here.  As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 24, 2020, 02:15:37 PM
My mother gave us good advice as children: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."


I've since learned, this is essentially a command in rabbinic Judaism. "Slander," in their definition of the sin, is saying something that is true about a person and is not nice. Saying something that is not true about a person falls under the sin of "lying/bearing false witness."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 24, 2020, 03:02:12 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 24, 2020, 03:19:13 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.

So, just a wonderment...is the MN/ND nice really unkind and therefore a fake nice?  lol.   8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 24, 2020, 05:40:14 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.

So, just a wonderment...is the MN/ND nice really unkind and therefore a fake nice?  lol.   8)

Fake nice, yes, that's it.  When I retire, I think I'll write a book about Minnesota Nice, translating it into plain English.  For example, if Bill says something to Bob and Bob replies, "That's interesting," what he really means is, "I disagree," or put into New Yorkese, "You're an idiot!"
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Daniel Lee Gard on March 24, 2020, 05:45:31 PM
"Greater love has no man.............."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/coronavirus-italy-priest-respirator-dies
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 24, 2020, 05:49:08 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.


Never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota. However, the origin of the word "nice" are quite interesting (from New Oxford American Dictionary):


Middle English (in the sense ‘stupid’): from Old French, from Latin nescius ‘ignorant’, from nescire ‘not know’. Other early senses included ‘coy, reserved’, giving rise to ‘fastidious, scrupulous’: this led both to the sense ‘fine, subtle’ (regarded by some as the ‘correct’ sense), and to the main current senses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
Pastor Bohler, to me unfortunately:
As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Me:
Nice. I said something much less nasty earlier today, In response to a snotty remark about myself and my wife, and my post was deleted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 24, 2020, 06:30:25 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.


Never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota. However, the origin of the word "nice" are quite interesting (from New Oxford American Dictionary):


Middle English (in the sense ‘stupid’): from Old French, from Latin nescius ‘ignorant’, from nescire ‘not know’. Other early senses included ‘coy, reserved’, giving rise to ‘fastidious, scrupulous’: this led both to the sense ‘fine, subtle’ (regarded by some as the ‘correct’ sense), and to the main current senses.

A Norwegian American who has never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota?  Where are you from?  Washington State?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 24, 2020, 06:44:15 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.


Never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota. However, the origin of the word "nice" are quite interesting (from New Oxford American Dictionary):


Middle English (in the sense ‘stupid’): from Old French, from Latin nescius ‘ignorant’, from nescire ‘not know’. Other early senses included ‘coy, reserved’, giving rise to ‘fastidious, scrupulous’: this led both to the sense ‘fine, subtle’ (regarded by some as the ‘correct’ sense), and to the main current senses.

A Norwegian American who has never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota?  Where are you from?  Washington State?


Yes, I was born in Seattle (so was my mom). Dad's German family settled in Iowa. Serving in the Navy brought him to the west coast.

Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 24, 2020, 07:02:03 PM
Pastor Bohler, to me unfortunately:
As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Me:
Nice. I said something much less nasty earlier today, In response to a snotty remark about myself and my wife, and my post was deleted.
“One sick puppy” is a common phrase meaning nothing more than, “that’s messed up” or “you’re over the top” or some such. Certainly not nasty or anything to get worked up about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J.L. Precup on March 24, 2020, 07:11:40 PM
Pastor Bohler, to me unfortunately:
As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Me:
Nice. I said something much less nasty earlier today, In response to a snotty remark about myself and my wife, and my post was deleted.
“One sick puppy” is a common phrase meaning nothing more than, “that’s messed up” or “you’re over the top” or some such. Certainly not nasty or anything to get worked up about.

Merriman-Webster doesn't mention your definitions:

"Definition of one sick puppy
informal: a person who is crazy, cruel, or disgusting
Anybody who would do that has to be one sick puppy."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 24, 2020, 07:43:44 PM
Pastor Bohler, to me unfortunately:
As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Me:
Nice. I said something much less nasty earlier today, In response to a snotty remark about myself and my wife, and my post was deleted.
“One sick puppy” is a common phrase meaning nothing more than, “that’s messed up” or “you’re over the top” or some such. Certainly not nasty or anything to get worked up about.

Merriman-Webster doesn't mention your definitions:

"Definition of one sick puppy
informal: a person who is crazy, cruel, or disgusting
Anybody who would do that has to be one sick puppy."
“Messed up,” “over the top,” and “crazy” seem to me in context to be fairly interchangeable colloquialisms. As I said, nothing to get worked up about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
Then why did you get upset about my exchange with Pastor Cottingham, and his snotty remark about mE and my wife?
My response disappeared. So far as I know his insult stayed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 24, 2020, 08:50:54 PM
Pastor Bohler, to me unfortunately:
As I said, you are one sick puppy.
Me:
Nice. I said something much less nasty earlier today, In response to a snotty remark about myself and my wife, and my post was deleted.
“One sick puppy” is a common phrase meaning nothing more than, “that’s messed up” or “you’re over the top” or some such. Certainly not nasty or anything to get worked up about.

Merriman-Webster doesn't mention your definitions:

"Definition of one sick puppy
informal: a person who is crazy, cruel, or disgusting
Anybody who would do that has to be one sick puppy."

Their example of usage ("Anybody who would do that has to be one sick puppy.") is precisely what I am saying about Rev. Austin and what he is doing in regards to James Eivan.  Anybody who would continue to deny who he is, anybody who would cyber-stalk another IS one sick puppy!
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: DeHall1 on March 24, 2020, 09:02:04 PM
Then why did you get upset about my exchange with Pastor Cottingham, and his snotty remark about mE and my wife?
My response disappeared. So far as I know his insult stayed.

Snotty remark?   I read where he stated that it sounded like you and "beloved spouse" were meant for each other....Quite frankly, I found your remarks regarding "beloved spouse" more insulting than any other comments:
"Do you want to hear a screed? You should hear what I hear from her." 

Those are your words. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 24, 2020, 09:03:28 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.

So, just a wonderment...is the MN/ND nice really unkind and therefore a fake nice?  lol.   8)

Fake nice, yes, that's it.  When I retire, I think I'll write a book about Minnesota Nice, translating it into plain English.  For example, if Bill says something to Bob and Bob replies, "That's interesting," what he really means is, "I disagree," or put into New Yorkese, "You're an idiot!"

heh. heh.   ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 24, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
Having spent so much time within the decidedly unkind culture of "Minnesota nice" and "North Dakota nice," I recommend that we get rid of the word "nice" to talk about kindness and use the word "kind" instead.


Never lived in Minnesota or North Dakota. However, the origin of the word "nice" are quite interesting (from New Oxford American Dictionary):


Middle English (in the sense ‘stupid’): from Old French, from Latin nescius ‘ignorant’, from nescire ‘not know’. Other early senses included ‘coy, reserved’, giving rise to ‘fastidious, scrupulous’: this led both to the sense ‘fine, subtle’ (regarded by some as the ‘correct’ sense), and to the main current senses.

heh.  heh.     :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 24, 2020, 10:31:51 PM
OK everybody take a deep breath, eat a cookie, pet a cat.
Pastor Bohler has his opinion of this humble correspondent which he expresses in a forceful, if not very elegant and clever way. I have my opinion of him, which I have never fully expressed in any way.
Pastor Cottingham and I have a "history," and for some reason my comments fry some of his circuits. I have tried to be non-reactive, but I do not always succeed at not reacting.
The fact that I am a writer and my years in New Jersey and dealings with sometimes rough, foul-mouthed people and others whose "politesse" would not make them welcome in sedate tea rooms mean that sometimes I like to speak/post bluntly and with a bit of color. Some people here seem to be thin of skin when I do that.
But  to the more important topic, the real topic of this thread.
It is now predicted (but by only one person, I think) that there will be "thousands of suicides" if people do not go back to work soon. It is now predicted (but not by everyone) that "churches will be full" on Easter Sunday as quarantine restrictions are lifted.
Those who do not predict the full churches, predict that if that happens, there will be many thousands, maybe tens of thousands of deaths because people filled the churches.
Meanwhile, medical workers lack proper protective equipment (which they could have had if preparations had been made three months ago). Those in charge have not used federal power to force industries to manufacture and provide the necessary equipment. The Defense Production Act has been invoked, but apparently not used. The country's Department of Health and Human Services says we need billions of masks and respirators, and one might wonder why the nation's manufacturers are not called in and ordered to make them. (BTW, I think only the President can do that.) If we are in a "war," we need the tanks and planes.
Meanwhile the count is still rising in significant areas and based on what we know about the disease, that rise can go on for some time.
Meanwhile, there seem to be two approaches to the bill working its way through Congress. One says it's an economic problem and we have to shore up the economy and put people back to work (because they value their paychecks more than their lives?). The other says the prime need is aid for people affected by the absolute necessary of the current, and probably an expanded quarantine.
That bill seems to be on the way to approval; and I guess we can be grateful for that.
Anybody else got any other ideas?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 24, 2020, 11:04:21 PM
Yes and we can be grateful to the Democrats for their herculean efforts to include in the phase three bill such measures to help us deal with the Covid-19 crisis medically and economically as such medically necessary measures and measures to help people through the economic crisis as an appropriation for the Lincoln Center, same day voter registration, demanding that all states authorize and strongly encourage early voting, carbon neutral mandates for the airlines, and the like. Those measures will do so much to fight the pandemic, help people and businesses survive through the economic upheaval of the pandemic, and help ensure that there will be jobs still after things return to normalcy. 8)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 25, 2020, 02:11:03 AM
Yes and we can be grateful to the Democrats for their herculean efforts to include in the phase three bill such measures to help us deal with the Covid-19 crisis medically and economically as such medically necessary measures and measures to help people through the economic crisis as an appropriation for the Lincoln Center, same day voter registration, demanding that all states authorize and strongly encourage early voting, carbon neutral mandates for the airlines, and the like. Those measures will do so much to fight the pandemic, help people and businesses survive through the economic upheaval of the pandemic, and help ensure that there will be jobs still after things return to normalcy. 8)


How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 25, 2020, 02:25:33 AM
Charles:

Please keep your promise and sign off on this discussion.  Most people are discussing.  You are not. 

The very fact that you post 4 times AFTER claiming you were going to sign off says it all.

I can't keep up with the half truths in everything you write, nor do I want to. 

As to "beloved spouse," sounds like you were MFEO, so screed away between the two of you.  I (and many here) are sick of hearing it.  I'll just go back to blindly defending everything the president does (at least in your eyes)  ::) ???
<emphasis added>

Then why did you get upset about my exchange with Pastor Cottingham, and his snotty remark about mE and my wife?
My response disappeared. So far as I know his insult stayed. <emphasis added>
Really Rev. Austin  .... Rev.-Coach made a snotty remark about you and your wife ... MFEO (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MFEO) ...Made For Each Other ... snooty really?

Yet another example of your attempt to slander forum participants due to your stubborn refusal to correctly quote a fellow forum member.

PLEASE apologize to Rev-Coach for accusing him of making a snooty comment.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 25, 2020, 02:35:44 AM
Yes and we can be grateful to the Democrats for their herculean efforts to include in the phase three bill such measures to help us deal with the Covid-19 crisis medically and economically as such medically necessary measures and measures to help people through the economic crisis as an appropriation for the Lincoln Center, same day voter registration, demanding that all states authorize and strongly encourage early voting, carbon neutral mandates for the airlines, and the like. Those measures will do so much to fight the pandemic, help people and businesses survive through the economic upheaval of the pandemic, and help ensure that there will be jobs still after things return to normalcy. 8)
How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?
Perhaps he was listening to Senate debate on CSPAN when that information was released on the Senate floor. I know I heard that from the Senate floor ... and reported in the news media.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 25, 2020, 05:58:05 AM
Yes and we can be grateful to the Democrats for their herculean efforts to include in the phase three bill such measures to help us deal with the Covid-19 crisis medically and economically as such medically necessary measures and measures to help people through the economic crisis as an appropriation for the Lincoln Center, same day voter registration, demanding that all states authorize and strongly encourage early voting, carbon neutral mandates for the airlines, and the like. Those measures will do so much to fight the pandemic, help people and businesses survive through the economic upheaval of the pandemic, and help ensure that there will be jobs still after things return to normalcy. 8)
How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?
Perhaps he was listening to Senate debate on CSPAN when that information was released on the Senate floor. I know I heard that from the Senate floor ... and reported in the news media.

Being fair, it is Speaker Pelosi's bill.














So you have to pass it first to know what's in it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Terry Culler on March 25, 2020, 08:43:32 AM
Rolf: you forgot the large number of Norwegians who settled in the Fox River area of Illinois.  If I'm not wrong, that was the first center of Norwegian immigration to the US.  On another subject, the fellow that taught pastoral counseling when I was in the seminary (he was from Indiana) said that Minnesota nice was really classic passive aggressive behavior.  Still, I prefer it to the northeastern version.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 25, 2020, 10:24:17 AM
Yes and we can be grateful to the Democrats for their herculean efforts to include in the phase three bill such measures to help us deal with the Covid-19 crisis medically and economically as such medically necessary measures and measures to help people through the economic crisis as an appropriation for the Lincoln Center, same day voter registration, demanding that all states authorize and strongly encourage early voting, carbon neutral mandates for the airlines, and the like. Those measures will do so much to fight the pandemic, help people and businesses survive through the economic upheaval of the pandemic, and help ensure that there will be jobs still after things return to normalcy. 8)
How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?
Perhaps he was listening to Senate debate on CSPAN when that information was released on the Senate floor. I know I heard that from the Senate floor ... and reported in the news media.

Being fair, it is Speaker Pelosi's bill.

So you have to pass it first to know what's in it.
Yeah ... I thought of that ... but figured those of that ilk probably never benefited from knowing about that statement ... or are exercising selective memory. ;D
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: peter_speckhard on March 25, 2020, 10:44:13 AM
Then why did you get upset about my exchange with Pastor Cottingham, and his snotty remark about mE and my wife?
My response disappeared. So far as I know his insult stayed.
His insult, as I recall (or someone's) also disappeared. I deleted two posts. I can't find the insult you're referring to in this thread. You said going off on Trump was justified. You brought your wife into it by telling everyone that if they think your views on Trump are a screed, they ought to hear your wife. Then Pr. Cottingham said it sounds like you and your wife were made for each other, but in any event he was not interested in hearing more screeds about the president. Is that the insult?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RDPreus on March 25, 2020, 11:08:24 AM
Rolf: you forgot the large number of Norwegians who settled in the Fox River area of Illinois.  If I'm not wrong, that was the first center of Norwegian immigration to the US.  On another subject, the fellow that taught pastoral counseling when I was in the seminary (he was from Indiana) said that Minnesota nice was really classic passive aggressive behavior.  Still, I prefer it to the northeastern version.

I agree with the fellow who taught you pastoral counseling at the seminary. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 25, 2020, 11:15:04 AM
nothing of mine was removed.

I simply said (based on Charles' statement of his wife's "screeds" against the POTUS, as has been pointed out by others, that they were "Made For Each Other."

If that is an insult, then Charles and I have very different definitions of what an "insult" is. 

Pastor Cottingham and I have a "history," and for some reason my comments fry some of his circuits.

again a misrepresentation and/or overreaction to what I challenge you on.  You only THINK they "fry some of my circuits" because you can't figure out how anyone could disagree with you and come to completely different conclusions using the same facts.  Therein lies your problem.

Quote
sometimes I like to speak/post bluntly and with a bit of color.

Maybe you ought to reexamine this habit of yours.  Just saying.

PLEASE apologize to Rev-Coach for accusing him of making a snooty comment

It's "Coach-Rev!'   ;D ;)  (the name actually comes from my first call days where I was both the pastor of a two point parish and the HS Cross Country and Track Coach.  Since I always signed with the formal "Rev...."  the kids began to call me that.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 25, 2020, 11:16:01 AM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 25, 2020, 11:26:40 AM

How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?

I"m sure the reference is to the proposed House Bill, which has been made public by House Republicans, because of the outlandish things in it.  As many news sources are calling it "a Liberal Christmas wish list."
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 11:45:44 AM
Pastor Cottingham (my emphasis added):
I"m sure the reference is to the proposed House Bill, which has been made public by House Republicans, because of the outlandish things in it.  As many news sources are calling it "a Liberal Christmas wish list."
Me:
“Many”. I found four. Out of Dozens and dozens and dozens of media outlets, that’s not “many.“ And those I found, except for USA Today, were partisan media solidly in the president’s camp.  And the USA today piece was a guest column on the op-Ed page.
But you can say “many.” The rest of us can, if we wish, seek context.
And we remember that the republican version of the bill wanted billions of dollars in the hands of the White House and administration alone, without any transparency and accountability.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 12:00:26 PM
OK folks. I have a question for you.
What do the people in your congregations say? Do any of them run restaurants? Small businesses? Do any of them work in those places or in industries where their job and livelihood is in peril now? And what do your farmers say? Can they get their crops to market? Will there be a market? Will they be able to obtain what they need to even harvest their crops?
We can approach this from a “pastoral” or “theological” perspective, but how does it look for people who are really on the ground? And whose future now seems uncertain?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 25, 2020, 12:09:37 PM
There are more than a few of us on this forum who are on the ground here at the epicenter of the coronavirus in the US at this time, that is, New York City.  We are praying for and with one another parish by parish and area by area; we are worshiping through live streaming and other venues; we are praying in specific with and for our health care workers, who ave been overtaxed and are going to be in all statistical categories overwhelmed in the next month to six weeks; we are supporting one another with counsel and with solutions for those who are stuck and alone, and much more.  We live in a ghost town.  We have been declared unclean.  If we travel, we must notify.  When we arrive, we must self-quarantine - in Florida, New Yorkers are not allowed to arrive and stay with family members - we must stay segregated in hotels. 

Just now at the urging of Pope Francis I prayed the Lord's Prayer at noon as a united prayer to the Heavenly Father that we be delivered from evil.  We have written letters to our elected officials, large groups of religious leaders, to urge that churches be treated in this time of trial like small businesses and receive financial relief in the same manner as small businesses.
I've just come from a funeral service where we all violated the six foot separation rule; there weren't many of us but it was impossible not to touch the grieving family at the loss of their 21 year old son.  Now - for the first time in my life - that physical contact with a mourning mother, father or relative is considered high risk activity.

All of this throws into stark outline our utter dependence on God, our utter need for one another in the fellowship of the faithful, our deep and permanent understanding of the blessing received through the love and life of Christ in us.

We have been deeply impressed by the leadership of our governor and our mayor.  Whatever other underlying political differences I may have with them, they have been stellar in leadership in an hour of deep need in our state and city.

Keep us all in your prayers around the country, and those in other highly impacted areas.  The light of Christ continues to shine, brighter than ever.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 12:18:11 PM
Our son in New Jersey last week delivered a truck load of medical supplies to New York City hospital. He said it was real real spooky to cross the George Washington Bridge at 8:30 in the morning and not once to touch your brake pedal.
People in our former neighborhood are overrun with the virus, some testing positive, some sick.
Other friends are now out of work, Or will be out of work soon.
Our son spent more than 20 years in the restaurant and food service industry, and is thankful every day, he says, that is the longer in that industry.
We can talk politics and theology, but we must not forget the people on the ground, especially in areas where the virus rages like wildfire. Prayers for you, Dave Benke, and for the people around you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: mariemeyer on March 25, 2020, 12:38:54 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?
'

Is it possible to surface the entire RNS report?

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven W Bohler on March 25, 2020, 12:41:35 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole.  At the same time, you also left off the last part of his sentence in your quote: "...as far as I am concerned".  We also know that President Trump tends to view virtually everything through his own eyes/perspective (which is NOT unique to him, by the way!), so with that last part of the sentence included, it may well be true.  That is, as far as HE is concerned, that is going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion.

2. You are starting to sound like Rev. Austin, nitpicking every little thing President Trump says.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on March 25, 2020, 12:59:29 PM
OK folks. I have a question for you.
What do the people in your congregations say? Do any of them run restaurants? Small businesses? Do any of them work in those places or in industries where their job and livelihood is in peril now? And what do your farmers say? Can they get their crops to market? Will there be a market? Will they be able to obtain what they need to even harvest their crops?
We can approach this from a “pastoral” or “theological” perspective, but how does it look for people who are really on the ground? And whose future now seems uncertain?

Been in contact with the owner of KC Bier Co (a member of my congregation)- bierhalle and biergarten are closed, brewing bier is still going for deliveries to grocery and liquor stores though deliveries to restaurants have stopped so he has had to temporarily lay off the servers.  Brewers are on an A or B team that doesn't intersect.  He had sales at the brewery this past Saturday, with 100% of the sales going to a fund to support the workers.  All the food in the bier halle was given to the employees (sausages, pretzels, noodles, etc).

Two other church members have been temporarily laid off from their employment, but fortunately are not single so have spouses to assist.  I have encouraged the members of the congregation to consider how necessary the relief check will be, will it be "found money", will it be something that can be better utilized through some of our local relief agencies?  My wife and I didn't budget for this money, didn't count on it as part of our income.  So we will prayerfully see how it can be used as a blessing for others.  We'll give a portion of it to the congregation, to individuals that we know, to agencies that we know.  And yes, we like bier, so we'll buy bier and gift cards to local businesses (a greenhouse in particular to buy compost, plants, etc.)       

The families in our congregation are communicating with each other, seeing how we can help one another and the communities we live in- KC, Grandview, Lee's Summit, Belton, Raymore, even THOSE PEOPLE across the state line in KCK, Overland Park, Shawnee, Mission, Lenexa, Olathe.  The border war is still going for some folks. 

Jeremy
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: John H on March 25, 2020, 01:47:11 PM
As I understand it, A-B Saint louis is only running can and Bottle beer since kegs are not needed for the food industry at this time. they are also shifting to making hand sanitizer. Many of the local distilleries in STL are doing the same. On another note, talking to someone that had three jobs and is down to one and waiting for the other shoe to drop. My industry, security manufacturing, is exempt and we have been shipping hardware to hospitals as they rework usage in the facilities.
John
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 25, 2020, 01:56:17 PM

How do you know what's in the bill that hasn't been revealed yet?

I"m sure the reference is to the proposed House Bill, which has been made public by House Republicans, because of the outlandish things in it.  As many news sources are calling it "a Liberal Christmas wish list."


Sources I read said that the content of the bill would not be released until today.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Voelker on March 25, 2020, 02:29:32 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole.  At the same time, you also left off the last part of his sentence in your quote: "...as far as I am concerned".  We also know that President Trump tends to view virtually everything through his own eyes/perspective (which is NOT unique to him, by the way!), so with that last part of the sentence included, it may well be true.  That is, as far as HE is concerned, that is going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion.
That's a sensible read of this quote. The other way to read it is that he's signaling voters: "Vote for the Democrats, and the free exercise of religion in America is done," which may not be far from the mark.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: readselerttoo on March 25, 2020, 02:32:55 PM
As I understand it, A-B Saint louis is only running can and Bottle beer since kegs are not needed for the food industry at this time. they are also shifting to making hand sanitizer. Many of the local distilleries in STL are doing the same. On another note, talking to someone that had three jobs and is down to one and waiting for the other shoe to drop. My industry, security manufacturing, is exempt and we have been shipping hardware to hospitals as they rework usage in the facilities.
John

local distilleries of both vodka and whiskey are retooling some of their small business manufacturing for hand sanitizer.  This is a fine project in these times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
WJV:
The other way to read it is that he's signaling voters: "Vote for the Democrats, and the free exercise of religion in America is done," which may not be far from the mark.
Me:
The president cares as much about freedom of religion as I care about what color socks he wears on any given morning. So the Democrats are going to end freedom of religion? Comments like that are not only silly, they contribute nothing to the discussion. And they indicate a lack of faith in the checks and balances of our constitutional system and our republic. But hey! I am at times inclined to think that freedom of everything is going to be threatened if the Republicans win the November election. Or worry that because of the screwup’s in dealing with this virus, there may not be enough of us around to care.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 25, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole.  At the same time, you also left off the last part of his sentence in your quote: "...as far as I am concerned".  We also know that President Trump tends to view virtually everything through his own eyes/perspective (which is NOT unique to him, by the way!), so with that last part of the sentence included, it may well be true.  That is, as far as HE is concerned, that is going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion.
That's a sensible read of this quote. The other way to read it is that he's signaling voters: "Vote for the Democrats, and the free exercise of religion in America is done," which may not be far from the mark.

I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Voelker on March 25, 2020, 03:05:52 PM
WJV:
The other way to read it is that he's signaling voters: "Vote for the Democrats, and the free exercise of religion in America is done," which may not be far from the mark.
Me:
The president cares as much about freedom of religion as I care about what color socks he wears on any given morning. So the Democrats are going to end freedom of religion? Comments like that are not only silly, they contribute nothing to the discussion. And they indicate a lack of faith in the checks and balances of our constitutional system and our republic. But hey! I am at times inclined to think that freedom of everything is going to be threatened if the Republicans win the November election. Or worry that because of the screwup’s in dealing with this virus, there may not be enough of us around to care.
While Trump may not have much personal interest in the freedom of religion, he does care what voters think, and a sizable chunk of voters have that perception of the Democrats. Do you really think, given the attacks on civil liberties (and the sheer number of citizens cheering it on) in the last couple weeks, that the "checks and balances of our constitutional system and our republic" mean absolute squat to either party, when power and getting their way are only an emergency away? After all the fearmongering surrounding Trump these past few years, what has he actually done to take away the rights of citizens? Non-citizens may not be too pleased with him, nor citizens who seek to use non-citizens for their own ends, but he seems to have little interest in getting into people's lives, unlike the grand plans to dig into the nooks and crannies of everyone's business put forward and approved by the top tier of Democratic Candidate-for-President vote-getters. Not everything he says and does is a world-ending threat; put on some big-boy pants and cope instead of going into a tizzy whenever he breathes in public.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Voelker on March 25, 2020, 03:06:15 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole.  At the same time, you also left off the last part of his sentence in your quote: "...as far as I am concerned".  We also know that President Trump tends to view virtually everything through his own eyes/perspective (which is NOT unique to him, by the way!), so with that last part of the sentence included, it may well be true.  That is, as far as HE is concerned, that is going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion.
That's a sensible read of this quote. The other way to read it is that he's signaling voters: "Vote for the Democrats, and the free exercise of religion in America is done," which may not be far from the mark.

I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.
+++
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 25, 2020, 03:08:35 PM


Is it possible to surface the entire RNS report?

Marie Meyer

https://religionnews.com/2020/03/24/in-calls-with-faith-leaders-white-house-focuses-on-virus-as-well-as-election/ (https://religionnews.com/2020/03/24/in-calls-with-faith-leaders-white-house-focuses-on-virus-as-well-as-election/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 25, 2020, 04:09:15 PM
Regarding the desire to paint President Trump always in a negative light, in light of recent polling I find it revealing.  I don't mean here so much (though obviously it may be instructive here, too).  In my FB feed, I have a nonstop constant drubbing from certain quarters about how awful the President is and how awful his response to the pandemic is and how he's surely going to lose in November because gosh, isn't he so awful guys?

Meanwhile:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/politics/donald-trump-gallup-approval-polling/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1Pe00yNXSs_hWbpgF39YZOshhOvujPIQxPfH273Z-LXje8WZeQptPW5Wc

"What accounts for Trump's rise? Simple: His response to the coronavirus crisis.

In the Gallup poll, 60% of Americans approve of the job Trump is doing in handling the crisis while 38% disapprove of how he has done. Six in 10 independents approve of how Trump has done on the coronavirus as do more than 1 in 4 (27%) of Democrats. In the Monmouth poll, 50% say Trump has done a good job with coronavirus while 45% said he has done a bad job."

So what accounts for the constant drumbeat of negativity?  Simple.  Those folks are almost invariably Democrats.  And 75% of Democrats just won't give the President an ounce of credit no matter what he does.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dan Fienen on March 25, 2020, 04:19:41 PM
I also find the overall tone of the CNN article interesting.  My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: David Garner on March 25, 2020, 04:20:51 PM
I also find the overall tone of the CNN article interesting.  My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.

I'm impressed they acknowledge anyone is giving him credit at all.  Growth comes in stages.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Richard Johnson on March 25, 2020, 04:22:16 PM

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole. 

That's certainly a hypobole.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: aletheist on March 25, 2020, 04:31:43 PM
My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.
I have long observed that the public always gives the president much more credit (or blame) than he deserves, regardless of who he/she is or to which party he/she belongs.  This is evident from the fact that the single most reliable factor in predicting presidential elections historically is the overall state of the economy.  What bothers me these days is the obvious desire of the current president's opponents for him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  I say this as someone who did not and will not vote for him, since I have always considered him to be temperamentally unfit for the office.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: mariemeyer on March 25, 2020, 05:10:01 PM
From Religion News Service, re: a phone call the President had with "religious leaders" (any of you on it?)

Tony Perkins, president of Family Research Council, which organized the Friday call, wrote about it on the conservative Christian group’s website and included a link to the hourlong discussion that featured Pence and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson along with, Perkins said, 700 pastors.

Trump thanked the leaders for their prayers for the country. But when asked by Perkins, who hosted the call, what he most wanted pastors to pray for, the president sought petitions for the country’s health and strength and “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3.”

“It’s a big day, Nov. 3; that’s going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion, as far as I’m concerned,” the president said before Perkins asked for Trump’s prayer requests.


I certainly agree that we should pray that God's will be done on Nov. 3 (and every day). But really? "One of the biggest dates in the history of religion"?

1.  Well, we all know that President Trump is given to hyperbole.  At the same time, you also left off the last part of his sentence in your quote: "...as far as I am concerned".  We also know that President Trump tends to view virtually everything through his own eyes/perspective (which is NOT unique to him, by the way!), so with that last part of the sentence included, it may well be true.  That is, as far as HE is concerned, that is going to be one of the biggest dates in the history of religion.

2. You are starting to sound like Rev. Austin, nitpicking every little thing President Trump says.

IMO the above #2 is in appropriate in regard to Pr. Richard Johnson and Pr. Charles Austin. 

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 05:19:02 PM
The "public," sad to say, also has a short memory and seems to not be able to consider several things at the same time. The president bollixed up the initial response to the virus. He was inactive, dismissive, and casual about it. Earlier and more decisive action would have put us in a much better condition today.
And he gets no credit for what is happening now, except for, I suppose, not tweeting it to death. He wasn't negotiating with Congress. He had no specific plans. Those came from elsewhere, and he stood and took credit.
If it's "the economy" that matters, the president can have little direct effect on it.
The public can now look at what's being done, but it cannot remember what was not done, and - while looking at what's being done - cannot grasp the four or five other things going on that matter. We are easily distracted; and those among us who want to like him find an easy focus. Those of us like aletheist, who consider him "temperamentally unfit for office" cannot seem to pull people way from those other "easy focus" items.
We are also lacking honest, open, debate and support from the Republican party, as those in office seem to be in thrall to the president. The party is nothing but Him.  Privately, we hear, they shake their heads, but in public...  My uncharitable suspicion is that most think speaking too much opposition would cost them votes, and to me this makes them moral cowards and the worst kind of political opportunists.
The fact that, when asked about what to pray for in these troubled, deadly times, he has the chutzpah to include requests for prayer for his own re-election goes on this humble correspondent's now painfully long list of statements indicating his immorality, incompetence and unfitness for office.
OTOH if we pray as he asked “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3," and if God is merciful and just....
(BTW, Pastor Bohler, it is not "nitpicking" to point out lies and inconsistencies on matters of life and death.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 25, 2020, 06:06:59 PM
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.


Well, the leftist sexual politics are now the laws of the land. Same-sex couples can get married and live together. If folks are not on board with the laws of our country, what should happen?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 25, 2020, 06:12:44 PM
My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.
I have long observed that the public always gives the president much more credit (or blame) than he deserves, regardless of who he/she is or to which party he/she belongs.  This is evident from the fact that the single most reliable factor in predicting presidential elections historically is the overall state of the economy.  What bothers me these days is the obvious desire of the current president's opponents for him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  I say this as someone who did not and will not vote for him, since I have always considered him to be temperamentally unfit for the office.


Why should be we believe that his way of dealing with the crisis is the correct way when the medical experts continually disagree with much of what he has said?


I'm sure that a majority of Christians want to believe that they can hold Easter services, so they will support him in what he said; but the scientists and the graphs I've seen of the time the virus spreads until the number of new cases starts decreasing doesn't agree with the President's time-line.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 07:20:56 PM
David Garner:
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.
Me:
That is, of course, ridiculous and wrong. Show me where anyone has said that. What we have said is it if you are going to engage in public commerce, you have to obey the law. Now you tell me what’s wrong with that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 25, 2020, 07:40:38 PM
David Garner:
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.
Me:
That is, of course, ridiculous and wrong. Show me where anyone has said that. What we have said is it if you are going to engage in public commerce, you have to obey the law. Now you tell me what’s wrong with that?


Let me put it as bluntly as possible. If a baker believes his faith means he cannot bake a cake for a gay wedding, . . . then that Baker needs to face the full force of the law.


The fact that you want to change the law and hammer the baker with it is beyond chilling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 25, 2020, 08:21:02 PM
The "public," sad to say, also has a short memory and seems to not be able to consider several things at the same time. The president bollixed up the initial response to the virus. He was inactive, dismissive, and casual about it. Earlier and more decisive action would have put us in a much better condition today.
And he gets no credit for what is happening now, except for, I suppose, not tweeting it to death. He wasn't negotiating with Congress. He had no specific plans. Those came from elsewhere, and he stood and took credit.
If it's "the economy" that matters, the president can have little direct effect on it.
The public can now look at what's being done, but it cannot remember what was not done, and - while looking at what's being done - cannot grasp the four or five other things going on that matter. We are easily distracted; and those among us who want to like him find an easy focus. Those of us like aletheist, who consider him "temperamentally unfit for office" cannot seem to pull people way from those other "easy focus" items.
We are also lacking honest, open, debate and support from the Republican party, as those in office seem to be in thrall to the president. The party is nothing but Him.  Privately, we hear, they shake their heads, but in public...  My uncharitable suspicion is that most think speaking too much opposition would cost them votes, and to me this makes them moral cowards and the worst kind of political opportunists.
The fact that, when asked about what to pray for in these troubled, deadly times, he has the chutzpah to include requests for prayer for his own re-election goes on this humble correspondent's now painfully long list of statements indicating his immorality, incompetence and unfitness for office.
OTOH if we pray as he asked “that we make the right choice on Nov. 3," and if God is merciful and just....
(BTW, Pastor Bohler, it is not "nitpicking" to point out lies and inconsistencies on matters of life and death.)

I've never cared for Donald Trump.
I think he is a clown and worse.
I did not vote for him in the 2016.
I do not expect to vote for him this time either.
However, you're sure doing a good job of making me think twice about that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James S. Rustad on March 25, 2020, 08:22:03 PM
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.


Well, the leftist sexual politics are now the laws of the land. Same-sex couples can get married and live together. If folks are not on board with the laws of our country, what should happen?

We should work to change the laws?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 08:25:52 PM
Thread drift. Let's let this go, it's a rutted road to nowhere.
I favor following the laws of public accommodation. Others think those laws should be changed. Others want various exceptions.
This is not the time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: RogerMartim on March 25, 2020, 08:43:20 PM
Trump at first thought that the reports of a pandemic was a hoax with most all of the  Fox News entertainers slavishly saying the same.
Now Trump says that he knew that it was going to be a pandemic long before anyone else. Again, Fox News abruptly went from it all being a hoax to it now being a pandemic.
No matter how anyone tries, there is no smooth sailing from hoax to pandemic. (One of the Fox programs had to be taken off the air because of inaccurate reporting.)

And I'm supposed to trust Trump?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Coach-Rev on March 25, 2020, 08:51:17 PM
https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-top-10-lies-about-president-trumps-response-to-the-coronavirus/

Check them out and come to your own conclusion.

I've come to the conclusion that one here who constantly fear mongers and spreads several of the top ten lies, will likely not be changed.  It'll be business as usual.

I'm sorry to see that my conclusion was well founded, since we just got this:

...The president bollixed up the initial response to the virus. He was inactive, dismissive, and casual about it. Earlier and more decisive action would have put us in a much better condition today.
And he gets no credit for what is happening now...

Specifically, look at numbers 7, 5, and 4. 

But keep on living in your own land of make-believe, Charles, where "orange man is bad."

RogerMartim, I suggest you do the same.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: J. Eriksson on March 25, 2020, 09:10:38 PM


Dear ALPB

I started this thread Feb 28 when the island of Hokkaido had 66 confirmed cases in a population 5.2 million people.   Schools were closing, Christian worship was cancelled and people were told to avoid gathering, etc. a State of Emergency had been declared.(meanings vary as to what a state of Emergency is).   I have not followed and don't have the same level of confidence about other areas of Japan.

The Catholic diocese has extended the period of no liturgical services until April 4th.  Anglicans are encouraged not to attend but the rectors show up for empty buildings.  4 Sundays without worship.

There are as of Wednesday  evening March 25nd,  167 confirmed cases, in Hokkaido with 1 case each in 2 of our 4 neighboring municipalities.  About 2000 people have met the criteria to be tested for the virus. More tests could be run but I think, tests kits are being saved for when and if they are needed and tests are not done on people with no symptoms and no known exposure.  Much work is being done to trace the contacts of people who do test positive.   We have had 6 deaths and about 75 reported recoveries(people testing negative)

In the first week of state of emergency :  Feb 29-March 6, 24 new cases were reported,  The second week March 7th to 13th -46 new cases.  The third week March 14 -20th only reported 21 new cases.  March 21-25 reported only 9 new cases.    What this suggests to me is that there are / were not a lot of carriers with no symptoms spreading the virus in the general population.   2,3,4 weeks starts the curve moving in the right direction.   This will be different in places with Ports of Entry as people returning home will continue to test positive

The church's kindergarten is closed but a small handful of children with working parents go to it and other 'day care' facilities.   We are fearful,  we don't want the church or the kindergarten to be the vector that brings the virus into our community.   This society has a way of punishing businesses and institutions.  My wife reports that 1 kindergarten mother who is Chinese has quit her job, and pulled her child from kindergarten for fear of social stigma.   All the stores that Ive been to have been open.  there is lots of food in the supermarkets and fewer shoppers.   toilet paper, hand sanitizer, face masks are in short supply.   People go to work, but avoid each other and non-essential things.  Restaurants have been open.

2 of my brothers in Canada are self isolating and 1 of them can't be with his in-laws as his FIL(Rev. Ron. Weatherington) passed away with a stroke last week.

May our Loving God continue to look out for all of you

James
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: aletheist on March 25, 2020, 09:25:43 PM
My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.
I have long observed that the public always gives the president much more credit (or blame) than he deserves, regardless of who he/she is or to which party he/she belongs.  This is evident from the fact that the single most reliable factor in predicting presidential elections historically is the overall state of the economy.  What bothers me these days is the obvious desire of the current president's opponents for him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  I say this as someone who did not and will not vote for him, since I have always considered him to be temperamentally unfit for the office.
Why should be we believe that his way of dealing with the crisis is the correct way when the medical experts continually disagree with much of what he has said?
Please read more carefully.  I said nothing whatsoever about whether anyone should "believe that his way of dealing with the crisis is the correct way."  I said that his opponents quite obviously want him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  The question that I would ask them is this:  If the best possible outcome of the current pandemic (however that is defined) happens to include Donald Trump's reelection, are you okay with that?  If the answer is no, then it confirms my suspicion that they are literally seeking his removal from office at all costs, including both loss of lives and economic hardship.  I find that unconscionable, my personal dislike of the president notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James J Eivan on March 25, 2020, 09:44:39 PM
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.
Well, the leftist sexual politics are now the laws of the land. Same-sex couples can get married and live together. If folks are not on board with the laws of our country, what should happen?
The Biblical admonition of Acts 5:29 “We ought to obey God rather than man” rings clear and true though your perverted exegesis that claims that faithfulness to your wife is not a biblical requirement will lead you to some convoluted contrary conclusion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Matt Hummel on March 25, 2020, 09:49:07 PM
One wonders if the Democrats, who knew that the Senate would not convict Trump, had foregone the impeachment debacle and instead looked at the developments in China, and had encouraged the White House to do the same, would we be in the situation we are in now? But Pelosi & Schumer had to have their way.

And so here we are with the  country in a mess. It will be interesting to see what history has to say.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on March 25, 2020, 10:11:09 PM
That is, of course, ridiculous and wrong. Show me where anyone has said that. What we have said is it if you are going to engage in public commerce, you have to obey the law. Now you tell me what’s wrong with that?

You have said so.  Repeatedly.  Of anyone who wants to go about their business without, for religious or other reasons, giving honor to same-sex "marriages." 

Kryie eleison, Steven+
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Charles Austin on March 25, 2020, 11:49:41 PM
No, Steven, nobody has to “honor” any kind of marriage. But our laws of public accommodation say you cannot discriminate against classes of people that you don’t happen to like. As noted upstream, this is thread drift. Why does this little item about obeying the law have to come up under every single discussion? Save it. This is not the place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Voelker on March 25, 2020, 11:56:13 PM
No, Steven, nobody has to “honor” any kind of marriage. But our laws of public accommodation say you cannot discriminate against classes of people that you don’t happen to like. As noted upstream, this is thread drift. Why does this little item about obeying the law have to come up under every single discussion? Save it. This is not the place.
You've been caught with your own words. Own up to them for once. And it's not off-topic, by any means: we have to consider what the aftermath of all this will look like, and what the various power-seeking groups are planning to do with the unsettled state we're going to be in for a while. Easily transmissible diseases, such as COVID-19, have real-world political ramifications, and you're seeking to quash discussions of such. I wonder why.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: James_Gale on March 26, 2020, 12:28:30 AM
No, Steven, nobody has to “honor” any kind of marriage. But our laws of public accommodation say you cannot discriminate against classes of people that you don’t happen to like. As noted upstream, this is thread drift. Why does this little item about obeying the law have to come up under every single discussion? Save it. This is not the place.


This issue does not implicate public accommodation laws.  At all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 26, 2020, 02:43:12 AM
My impression of the underlying theme is that the public is giving Trump much more credit than he deserves.
I have long observed that the public always gives the president much more credit (or blame) than he deserves, regardless of who he/she is or to which party he/she belongs.  This is evident from the fact that the single most reliable factor in predicting presidential elections historically is the overall state of the economy.  What bothers me these days is the obvious desire of the current president's opponents for him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  I say this as someone who did not and will not vote for him, since I have always considered him to be temperamentally unfit for the office.
Why should be we believe that his way of dealing with the crisis is the correct way when the medical experts continually disagree with much of what he has said?
Please read more carefully.  I said nothing whatsoever about whether anyone should "believe that his way of dealing with the crisis is the correct way."  I said that his opponents quite obviously want him to fail this enormous test, rather than rooting for him to succeed for the good of the nation and its people.  The question that I would ask them is this:  If the best possible outcome of the current pandemic (however that is defined) happens to include Donald Trump's reelection, are you okay with that?  If the answer is no, then it confirms my suspicion that they are literally seeking his removal from office at all costs, including both loss of lives and economic hardship.  I find that unconscionable, my personal dislike of the president notwithstanding.


You make it sound like his opponents caused the pandemic to make him look bad.


The pandemic happened. He looked bad. No one caused him to look bad. He did it himself. Some of his policies and restructuring hindered our response to the pandemic. Although, not as much as some critics have claimed.


I am hopeful that congress's actions will help the economic hardship. It has been governors on the front lines of trying to contain or slow the spread of the virus. Our son in Seattle called tonight. He will have to carry papers to show officials that he is authorized to go to work because it is deemed essential. Otherwise, people are pretty much limited to going out of their houses to get food or medicine. The president had no role in that decision.


Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on March 26, 2020, 02:49:37 AM
I mean, people here on this religious board have actually said that if you aren't on board with leftist sexual politics, you should not be allowed to engage in commerce.  I'd say it's pretty close to the mark.
Well, the leftist sexual politics are now the laws of the land. Same-sex couples can get married and live together. If folks are not on board with the laws of our country, what should happen?
The Biblical admonition of Acts 5:29 “We ought to obey God rather than man” rings clear and true though your perverted exegesis that claims that faithfulness to your wife is not a biblical requirement will lead you to some convoluted contrary conclusion.


I've never argued against faithfulness to one's wife. The Old Testament is clear that some faithful men had more than one wife; and they also had children with slaves and concubines.


To return to this topic, should Christians gather on Sunday in obedience to our Christian understanding of remembering the Sabbath day and Jesus' command to "do this," or should we respect the advice of science and remain secluded so that we neither catch the virus nor spread it if we have it? Is canceling worship services disobeying God?
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on March 26, 2020, 08:23:43 AM
No.
Title: Re: Coronavirus news
Post by: Dave Benke on March 26, 2020, 09:01:01 AM
No.

Totally agree.  I am sitting in a room in a home in the county and borough of Queens, NY.  Queens is the center of the ce