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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 11:05:46 AM

Title: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 11:05:46 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Lorna Halaas elected bishop of the ELCA Western Iowa Synod

CHICAGO (May 9, 2019) – The Rev. Lorna H. Halaas, Sioux City, Iowa, was elected May 4 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Western Iowa Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the Synod Assembly, held May 3-5 at Sioux City Convention Center.

Halaas was elected on the fifth ballot with 146 votes. The Rev. William Tesch, associate to the bishop and director of evangelical mission in the ELCA South Dakota Synod, received 112.

The bishop-elect has served as assistant to the bishop of the Western Iowa Synod since 2013. She served as interim pastor of Hope Lutheran Church in Sioux City and of Immanuel Lutheran Church in George, Iowa, from 2012 to 2013, and of First Lutheran Church in Hoople, N.D., from 2011 to 2012. Halaas served as pastor of Gloria Dei Lutheran Church in Williston, N.D., from 2009 to 2010.

Halaas received a Bachelor of Arts from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn., in 1978 and a Master of Divinity from United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities in New Brighton, Minn. (now located in St. Paul), in 2008. Concordia is one of 27 ELCA colleges and universities.

Halaas will be installed later this summer.

The Rev. Rodger Prois has served as bishop since 2013.

Information about the ELCA Western Iowa Synod is available at www.wisynod.org/.

https://elca.org/News-and-Events/7969

Bishop Prois came in third on the 4th ballot: Lorna Halaas 117; Bill Tesch 88; Bishop Rodger Prois 55.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 11:08:09 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Laurie Larson Caesar elected bishop of the ELCA Oregon Synod

CHICAGO (May 16, 2019) – The Rev. Laurie A. Larson Caesar, Portland, was elected May 11 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Oregon Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the Synod Assembly, held May 10-12 at the Graduate Hotel in Eugene.

Larson Caesar was elected on the fifth ballot, with 164 votes. The Rev. David Brauer-Rieke, bishop of the ELCA Oregon Synod since 2007, received 118.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Spirit of Grace Lutheran Church in Beaverton since 1996.

Larson Caesar received a Bachelor of Arts from Stanford University, Stanford, Calif., in 1988 and a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School in 1992.

Larson Caesar will be installed Dec. 14.

Information about the ELCA Oregon Synod is available at www.oregonsynod.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7970
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 11:20:43 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Michael Rinehart re-elected bishop of the ELCA Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast Synod

CHICAGO (May 17, 2019) – The Rev. Michael W. Rinehart was elected May 17 to serve a third six-year term as bishop of the Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 17-18 at Kinsmen Lutheran Church in Houston.

Rinehart was elected on the first ballot, with 145 votes. A total of 135 votes were needed for election. He was first elected in 2007.

Prior to becoming bishop, Rinehart served as pastor of Grace Lutheran Church in Conroe, Texas, from 1997-2007; Christ Lutheran Church in Charlotte, N.C., from 1994-1997; and St. Paul Lutheran Church in Davenport, Iowa, from 1988-1994.

Rinehart received a Bachelor of Music in organ performance from Valparaiso (Ind.) University in 1983 and a Master of Divinity from Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Columbus, Ohio, in 1988. Trinity is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Information about the ELCA Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast Synod is available at www.gulfcoastsynod.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7971

Election on the first (or second) ballot requires 75% of the votes cast. 

Election on the third ballot, which has the six highest vote-getters from the second, requires 2/3rds of the votes cast.  A fourth ballot would have the three top vote-getters and election requires 60%.  A fifth ballot has the top two, with a majority electing.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 18, 2019, 11:31:06 AM
The Bishop-elect in Iowa, it appears, has served only three parishes in different states, each for one year and one as an interim.  Then she became assistant to the bishop in that synod. She graduated from seminary 30 years after she graduated from college, and there’s no reference to what she did during that period. I find that a curious resume, but then I sometimes have weird opinions.
Can’t Read clearly between the lines on the “political” side of things, but I note that she ran against and unseated the bishop who, apparently as one of his first actions in office, chose her to be his assistant.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 11:38:11 AM
The following 21 Synods (with the current Bishop) are electing Bishops this year:

Northwest Washington (B. Kirby Unti)
Southwestern Washington (Richard Jaech)
Oregon (David Brauer-Rieke)
Montana (Jessica Crist)

Southwest California (R. Guy Erwin)
South Dakota (David Zellmer)
Northwestern Minnesota (Larry Wohlrabe)
Southeastern Minnesota (Steven Delzer)

Central States (Roger Gustafson)
Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast (Michael Rinehart)
Metro Chicago (Wayne Miller)
Western Iowa (Rodger Prois)

North/West Lower Michigan (Craig Satterlee)
Southern Ohio (Suzanne Dillahunt)
New Jersey (Tracie Bartholomew)
Metro New York (Donald McCoid, Interim)

Northwestern Pennsylvania (Ralph Jones)
Southwestern Pennsylvania (Kurt Kusserow)
Lower Susquehanna (James Dunlop)
Metro Washington, DC (Richard Graham)

Southeastern (H. Julian Gordy)

Note that some of the incumbents have indicated they do not wish to be elected to a new term.


Also the Churchwide Assembly will be electing a Presiding Bishop.  Elizabeth Eaton, the incumbent, has stated she is willing to be elected to another term.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 18, 2019, 11:56:44 AM
The Bishop-elect in Iowa, it appears, has served only three parishes in different states, each for one year and one as an interim.  Then she became assistant to the bishop in that synod. She graduated from seminary 30 years after she graduated from college, and there’s no reference to what she did during that period. I find that a curious resume, but then I sometimes have weird opinions.
Can’t Read clearly between the lines on the “political” side of things, but I note that she ran against and unseated the bishop who, apparently as one of his first actions in office, chose her to be his assistant.

I'm no expert at ELCA politics, but my impression is that due to the election process, all members a synod who would possibly be eligible to be synod bishop are initially considered candidates for the position. It is during the election process that the number of candidates are reduced and one finally elected.


Is it really reasonable to say that Rev. Halaas ran for the office against the incumbent who had appointed her his assistant?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on May 18, 2019, 11:59:12 AM
The following 21 Synods (with the current Bishop) are electing Bishops this year:

Northwest Washington (B. Kirby Unti)
Southwestern Washington (Richard Jaech)
Oregon (David Brauer-Rieke)
Montana (Jessica Crist)

Southwest California (R. Guy Erwin)
South Dakota (David Zellmer)
Northwestern Minnesota (Larry Wohlrabe)
Southeastern Minnesota (Steven Delzer)

Central States (Roger Gustafson)
Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast (Michael Rinehart)
Metro Chicago (Wayne Miller)
Western Iowa (Rodger Prois)

North/West Lower Michigan (Craig Satterlee)
Southern Ohio (Suzanne Dillahunt)
New Jersey (Tracie Bartholomew)
Metro New York (Donald McCoid, Interim)

Northwestern Pennsylvania (Ralph Jones)
Southwestern Pennsylvania (Kurt Kusserow)
Lower Susquehanna (James Dunlop)
Metro Washington, DC (Richard Graham)

Southeastern (H. Julian Gordy)

Note that some of the incumbents have indicated they do not wish to be elected to a new term.


Also the Churchwide Assembly will be electing a Presiding Bishop.  Elizabeth Eaton, the incumbent, has stated she is willing to be elected to another term.

The Rev. Paul Egensteiner was elected Bishop of the Metropolitan New York Synod yesterday. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 18, 2019, 12:07:55 PM
Pastor Fienen writes:
Is it really reasonable to say that Rev. Halaas ran for the office against the incumbent who had appointed her his assistant?

I comment:
Maybe and perhaps and probably. But once one allows one's name to be put in nomination and does not withdraw, one is running for the office. Furthermore, decades of experience with synod elections have indicated (although not proved) to me that certain candidates are "spotted," in advance, asked if they would consider it and then - by some mysterious work of the Spirit - word gets around.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peterm on May 18, 2019, 01:33:25 PM
Reasonable or not, that is what happened.  I was on the Western Iowa Synod election committee, and was there while it happened.  In my opinion it happened in part because now former Bishop Prois told the truth about the financial, and other challenges facing the synod, and there was a backlash against that.  There was also a letter writing campaign against him as well.

Those challenges remain unchanged and Lorna will have to deal with them too.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 18, 2019, 01:35:11 PM
I'm no expert at ELCA politics, but my impression is that due to the election process, all members a synod who would possibly be eligible to be synod bishop are initially considered candidates for the position. It is during the election process that the number of candidates are reduced and one finally elected.

Is it really reasonable to say that Rev. Halaas ran for the office against the incumbent who had appointed her his assistant?

According to the Constitutions, any rostered ELCA pastor (at our last election, the ELCA rep presiding over the election at least twice specifically mentioned retired pastors as included) is eligible for election as a Synod or Presiding Bishop and can be named on the first ballot of an election, which is effectively a nominating ballot.

The, uh, identification of particular pastors as likely "candidates" or nominees before a Synod Assembly works in several different ways in the various Synods.  One extreme includes Central/Southern Illinois, where any open discussion before the Assembly is actually very strongly discouraged.*   I noticed that South Dakota and NW Minn have on their websites lists of pastors whose names have been raised as possible nominees, and they've even filled out biographies.  (From those lists it appears the current Bishops do not wish to be elected again.)  In the past I've seen synod websites also post "identified" pastors' responses to questions.

I don't know Western Iowa's practice.  I did notice that both of the final two candidates' names, the Revs. Halaas and Tesch, have been "identified" in other nearby synods.

Pax, Steven+

* This is so strong that at the last election, the incumbent Bishop was below 50% after the 4th ballot, yet all of the pastors under call one might have thought as potential candidates ahead of time had immediately withdrawn their names, leaving for the 3rd ballot the Bishop, 2 retired pastors, one chaplain old enough to retire, and two young pastors each having less than 5 years since ordination.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on May 18, 2019, 01:50:41 PM
MNYS passed a resolution a number of years ago appointing a committee to study the election process [of the bishop].   This year pastors declared themselves candidates for bishop several months before the Assembly (but, I believe, still needed to have someone nominate them).  A bio was posted on-line as well as responses of the candidates to a number of questions.  There is a retired pastor in MNYS who attended the Assembly and sent a number of emails throughout the process.  While Pastor Egensteiner was not his first choice I will say that he was one of the few (perhaps two out of nine) who didn't use identity politics in his statement.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on May 18, 2019, 01:55:12 PM
Reasonable or not, that is what happened.  I was on the Western Iowa Synod election committee, and was there while it happened.  In my opinion it happened in part because now former Bishop Prois told the truth about the financial, and other challenges facing the synod, and there was a backlash against that.  There was also a letter writing campaign against him as well.

Those challenges remain unchanged and Lorna will have to deal with them too.

I have no idea how things happened, but I guess what I question, and perhaps you can answer, was whether Lorna herself campaigned against Bishop Prois and tried to get herself elected to replace him. I thought the system was set up to discourage pastors from such politicking.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: dkeener on May 18, 2019, 04:28:37 PM
The Bishop-elect in Iowa, it appears, has served only three parishes in different states, each for one year and one as an interim.  Then she became assistant to the bishop in that synod. She graduated from seminary 30 years after she graduated from college, and there’s no reference to what she did during that period. I find that a curious resume, but then I sometimes have weird opinions.
Can’t Read clearly between the lines on the “political” side of things, but I note that she ran against and unseated the bishop who, apparently as one of his first actions in office, chose her to be his assistant.

I also found her resume to be curious.  I looked up some of the statistics for the Western Iowa synod.  Membership and worship attendance has been in steady decline for years and it appears that about 70% of their congregations are either plateaued or in decline. It baffles me that in view of this the synod would elect a bishop who has almost no parish experience.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 18, 2019, 04:57:55 PM
dkeener, I have watched the election of synodical bishops since the beginning of the ELCA. “Baffled“ doesn’t begin to describe my reaction about 50% of the time.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: RPG on May 18, 2019, 05:45:08 PM
I'm no expert at ELCA politics, but my impression is that due to the election process, all members a synod who would possibly be eligible to be synod bishop are initially considered candidates for the position. It is during the election process that the number of candidates are reduced and one finally elected.

Is it really reasonable to say that Rev. Halaas ran for the office against the incumbent who had appointed her his assistant?

According to the Constitutions, any rostered ELCA pastor (at our last election, the ELCA rep presiding over the election at least twice specifically mentioned retired pastors as included) is eligible for election as a Synod or Presiding Bishop and can be named on the first ballot of an election, which is effectively a nominating ballot.

The, uh, identification of particular pastors as likely "candidates" or nominees before a Synod Assembly works in several different ways in the various Synods.  One extreme includes Central/Southern Illinois, where any open discussion before the Assembly is actually very strongly discouraged.*   I noticed that South Dakota and NW Minn have on their websites lists of pastors whose names have been raised as possible nominees, and they've even filled out biographies.  (From those lists it appears the current Bishops do not wish to be elected again.)  In the past I've seen synod websites also post "identified" pastors' responses to questions.

I don't know Western Iowa's practice.  I did notice that both of the final two candidates' names, the Revs. Halaas and Tesch, have been "identified" in other nearby synods.

Pax, Steven+

* This is so strong that at the last election, the incumbent Bishop was below 50% after the 4th ballot, yet all of the pastors under call one might have thought as potential candidates ahead of time had immediately withdrawn their names, leaving for the 3rd ballot the Bishop, 2 retired pastors, one chaplain old enough to retire, and two young pastors each having less than 5 years since ordination.
Here in South Dakota there is a two-term limit for the office of Bishop, so Bishop Zellmer is not eligible.  There are roughly 14 synods out of the 65 that have a two-term limit, and I think one synod has a three-term limit. An attempt was made to remove this bylaw at our 2018 synod assembly and was defeated. A similar attempt in Western North Dakota (also two-terms) was also defeated.

I believe Bishop Wohlrabe (NW MN) has stated his intention to retire.

RPG+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on May 18, 2019, 11:06:09 PM
Reasonable or not, that is what happened.  I was on the Western Iowa Synod election committee, and was there while it happened.  In my opinion it happened in part because now former Bishop Prois told the truth about the financial, and other challenges facing the synod, and there was a backlash against that.  There was also a letter writing campaign against him as well.

Those challenges remain unchanged and Lorna will have to deal with them too.

I have no idea how things happened, but I guess what I question, and perhaps you can answer, was whether Lorna herself campaigned against Bishop Prois and tried to get herself elected to replace him. I thought the system was set up to discourage pastors from such politicking.


At best, folks within a synod may ask someone they believe will be a good candidate if they would be willing to serve - and submit a biography. Seldom, do I believe that a candidate does politicking, but friends may encourage others to vote for their favorite. Or, like when Presiding Bishop Eaton was elected, there was talk in the hallways about the different candidates - especially with people who knew them. (I was a voting member at that assembly.)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peterm on May 20, 2019, 11:55:44 AM
Reasonable or not, that is what happened.  I was on the Western Iowa Synod election committee, and was there while it happened.  In my opinion it happened in part because now former Bishop Prois told the truth about the financial, and other challenges facing the synod, and there was a backlash against that.  There was also a letter writing campaign against him as well.

Those challenges remain unchanged and Lorna will have to deal with them too.

I have no idea how things happened, but I guess what I question, and perhaps you can answer, was whether Lorna herself campaigned against Bishop Prois and tried to get herself elected to replace him. I thought the system was set up to discourage pastors from such politicking.

She did not actively politic but neither did she decline the nomination.  I have no idea who nominated her.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on May 20, 2019, 12:32:50 PM
Reasonable or not, that is what happened.  I was on the Western Iowa Synod election committee, and was there while it happened.  In my opinion it happened in part because now former Bishop Prois told the truth about the financial, and other challenges facing the synod, and there was a backlash against that.  There was also a letter writing campaign against him as well.

Those challenges remain unchanged and Lorna will have to deal with them too.

I have no idea how things happened, but I guess what I question, and perhaps you can answer, was whether Lorna herself campaigned against Bishop Prois and tried to get herself elected to replace him. I thought the system was set up to discourage pastors from such politicking.

She did not actively politic but neither did she decline the nomination.  I have no idea who nominated her.


While folks may talk about possible candidates and get bios from possible candidates; at least in synods I've been in, the first ballot is still a blank sheet of paper. Every voting member can write in (i.e., "nominate") anyone on the ELCA roster of word and sacrament.


The following are rules for electing a bishop from the model constitution for synods.


S9.04. The bishop shall be elected by the Synod Assembly by ecclesiastical ballot.Three-fourths of the legal votes cast shall be necessary for election on the first ballot. If no one is elected, the first ballot shall be considered the nominating ballot. Three-fourths of the legal votes cast on the second ballot shall be necessary for election. The third ballot shall be limited to the seven persons (plus ties) who received the greatest number of legal votes on the second ballot, and two-thirds of the legal votes cast shall be necessary for election. The fourth ballot shall be limited to the three persons (plus ties) who receive the greatest number of legal votes on the third ballot, and 60 percent of the legal votes cast shall be necessary for election. On subsequent ballots a majority of the legal votes cast shall be necessary for election. These ballots shall be limited to the two persons (plus ties) who receive the greatest number of legal votes on the previous ballot.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 21, 2019, 05:49:44 PM
From ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Craig Satterlee re-elected bishop of the ELCA North/West Lower Michigan Synod

CHICAGO (May 21, 2019) – The Rev. Craig Alan Satterlee was elected May 18 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the North/West Lower Michigan Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 16-18 in Mount Pleasant, Mich.

Satterlee was re-elected on the fifth ballot, with 152 votes. The Rev. Bill Uetricht, pastor of First Evangelical Lutheran Church in Muskegon, Mich., received 113.

Prior to becoming bishop in 2013, Satterlee served as the Carlson Professor of Homiletics at Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago, one of seven ELCA seminaries. Satterlee also served as dean of the Doctor of Ministry in Preaching program for the Association of Chicago Theological Schools and as an adjunct professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame.

He served as pastor of Holy Nativity Lutheran Church in Endicott, N.Y., from 1990 to 1995 and as assistant pastor of Bethlehem Lutheran Church in Fairport, N.Y., from 1987 to 1990.

Satterlee received a Bachelor of Arts in political science and persuasive communication and rhetoric from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor in 1982 and a Master of Divinity from Trinity Lutheran Seminary at Capital University in Columbus, Ohio, in 1986. Trinity is one of seven ELCA seminaries. Satterlee earned a Ph.D in liturgical studies and homiletics from the University of Notre Dame in 2000.

Information about the ELCA North/West Lower Michigan Synod is available at www.mittensynod.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7972
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 21, 2019, 05:54:01 PM
From ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Paul Egensteiner elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod

CHICAGO (May 21, 2019) – The Rev. Paul T. Egensteiner, Brooklyn, New York, was elected May 17 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan New York Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the Synod Assembly, held May 16-18 at the Westchester Marriott in Tarrytown, N.Y.

Egensteiner was elected on the fifth ballot, with 250 votes. The Rev. Christopher Mietlowski, pastor of Gustavus Adolphus Lutheran Church in New York, received 198.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Emanuel Lutheran Church in Pleasantville, N.Y., since 1997. He served as pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church in Staten Island, N.Y., from 1984 to 1997.

Egensteiner received a Bachelor of Arts from Wagner College in Staten Island in 1979 and a Master of Divinity from Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 1984. Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Egensteiner will be installed Nov. 16 at The Cathedral Church of Saint John the Divine in New York.

The Rev. Donald J. McCoid has served as interim bishop since 2018.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod is available at www.mnys.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7973

I find it interesting that there's nothing in the ELCA News report about how MNYS has had an interim Bishop.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 21, 2019, 05:56:13 PM
More from ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Shelley Bryan Wee elected bishop of the ELCA Northwest Washington Synod

CHICAGO (May 21, 2019) – The Rev. Shelley Bryan Wee was elected May 19 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Northwest Washington Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).  The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 17-19 in Lynnwood, Wash.

Bryan Wee was elected on the fourth ballot, with 167 votes. The Rev. Deanna Wildermuth, pastor of Holy Trinity, Mercer Island, Wash., received 158 votes.

Bryan Wee has served as assistant to the bishop in the Northwest Washington Synod since 2017. She was pastor of Emmanuel Lutheran Church in Cheney, Wash., from 2016 to 2017 and campus pastor at Eastern Washington University in Cheney from 2009 to 2017. She served as pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Spokane from 1999 to 2009.

The bishop-elect received a Bachelor of Arts from Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma in 1988 and a Master of Divinity from Luther Northwestern Theological Seminary (now Luther Seminary) in 1993. Pacific Lutheran University is one of 27 ELCA colleges and universities, and Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Bryan Wee will be installed Nov. 2 at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle.

The Rev. Brian Kirby Unti has served as bishop since 2013 and will retire July 31.

Information about the Northwest Washington Synod is available at www.lutheransnw.org.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7974
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 21, 2019, 09:43:05 PM
Steven writes:
I find it interesting that there's nothing in the ELCA News report about how MNYS has had an interim Bishop.
I comment;
 Me too, Steven, me too   
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on May 21, 2019, 10:19:46 PM
From ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Paul Egensteiner elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod



The Rev. Donald J. McCoid has served as interim bishop since 2018.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod is available at www.mnys.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7973

I find it interesting that there's nothing in the ELCA News report about how MNYS has had an interim Bishop.

Pax, Steven+

I am confused--has there been another Interim Bishop?  What am I missing?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 21, 2019, 11:07:48 PM
From ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Paul Egensteiner elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod



The Rev. Donald J. McCoid has served as interim bishop since 2018.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod is available at www.mnys.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7973

I find it interesting that there's nothing in the ELCA News report about how MNYS has had an interim Bishop.


I am confused--has there been another Interim Bishop?  What am I missing?

Bishop McCoid has been the Interim since Bishop Rimbo resigned.  Once upon a time, ELCA News would have acknowledged that sort of detail in a report like this.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 22, 2019, 12:22:46 AM
Steven writes:
Bishop McCoid has been the Interim since Bishop Rimbo resigned.  Once upon a time, ELCA News would have acknowledged that sort of detail in a report like this.
I comment:
Yes, that “once upon a time” was when people like the late Herb David Of the ALC or the late R. Marshall Stross of the LCA or Dan Cattau Of the Lutheran Council or Ann Hafften of the ELCA or this humble correspondent were handling Lutheran news.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on May 22, 2019, 07:37:22 AM
Steven writes:
Bishop McCoid has been the Interim since Bishop Rimbo resigned.  Once upon a time, ELCA News would have acknowledged that sort of detail in a report like this.
I comment:
Yes, that “once upon a time” was when people like the late Herb David Of the ALC or the late R. Marshall Stross of the LCA or Dan Cattau Of the Lutheran Council or Ann Hafften of the ELCA or this humble correspondent were handling Lutheran news.

There was no reason to acknowledge it.  It serves no purpose other than satisfying curiosity.  And you know what happened to the cat!
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 22, 2019, 09:49:56 AM
From the perspective of a news story, Eileen, yes, there was a reason to note why the Synod had an interim bishop. It’s the first question an editor would ask if a reporter submitted a story that said “interim,” without explaining why.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on May 22, 2019, 10:42:14 AM
From the perspective of a news story, Eileen, yes, there was a reason to note why the Synod had an interim bishop. It’s the first question an editor would ask if a reporter submitted a story that said “interim,” without explaining why.

I'm not convinced, in NY at least, that the Lutheran church is as high profile as we might wish.  We had two print media professionals on the synod communications commission and it was still like pulling teeth to get Stephen Bouman in the news.  When Rimbo resigned and McCoid took over as interim there was a presentation release. All of the congregations received it; it was up to the pastor if they were informed of his leaving.  Now almost two years later, I don't think it's  a story and I'm not convinced the beyond the church (and even within the church) many would even know what an interim is.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 22, 2019, 11:17:20 AM
Eileen writes:
Now almost two years later, I don't think it's a story and I'm not convinced the beyond the church (and even within the church) many would even know what an interim is.
I comment:
All the more reason to explain “interim” in the news story. As for getting Lutherans in the news, it has always been a bit of a roll of the dice in New York City. Nonetheless, any story we send out to the media should be journalistically solid.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 22, 2019, 01:06:35 PM
Steven writes:
Bishop McCoid has been the Interim since Bishop Rimbo resigned.  Once upon a time, ELCA News would have acknowledged that sort of detail in a report like this.
I comment:
Yes, that “once upon a time” was when people like the late Herb David Of the ALC or the late R. Marshall Stross of the LCA or Dan Cattau Of the Lutheran Council or Ann Hafften of the ELCA or this humble correspondent were handling Lutheran news.

Ann Hafften was one of perhaps half a dozen on the ELCA News staff before cuts in the last decade turned that department into a shadow of its first 2 decades.  People like John Brooks (News Director in the '00s) and Frank Imhoff (and others whose names I don't recall) were very good about frequent reports of news and events throughout the ELCA (and this was completely separate from The Lutheran, which did the same for a different audience). 

ELCA News and The Lutheran were professional news operations that didn't ignore the full story, which sometimes riled the ELCA's top leadership when not-good news or controversy were acknowledged as part of this church's story -- without sensationalizing it.  Leaving out the simple acknowledgement that Bishop Rimbo resigned before the end of his term or (as in the first reports I re-posted) a direct acknowledgement that an incumbent Bishop was defeated for re-election continues the pretense of the last decade that everything in the ELCA is hunky dory.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on May 22, 2019, 01:50:35 PM
And, Steven, it indicates that “public relations” in the bad sense of the word or ineptness at news writing is in play.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on May 22, 2019, 03:51:29 PM
And, Steven, it indicates that “public relations” in the bad sense of the word or ineptness at news writing is in play.

"PR" (in the worst sense) is my reaction, too. 

It's a "practical" 21st century version of distinguishing between theologians of glory and theologians of the Cross. 

spt+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on May 22, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
From ELCA News:

Quote from: ELCA News
Paul Egensteiner elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod

CHICAGO (May 21, 2019) – The Rev. Paul T. Egensteiner, Brooklyn, New York, was elected May 17 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan New York Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the Synod Assembly, held May 16-18 at the Westchester Marriott in Tarrytown, N.Y.

Egensteiner was elected on the fifth ballot, with 250 votes. The Rev. Christopher Mietlowski, pastor of Gustavus Adolphus Lutheran Church in New York, received 198.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Emanuel Lutheran Church in Pleasantville, N.Y., since 1997. He served as pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church in Staten Island, N.Y., from 1984 to 1997.

Egensteiner received a Bachelor of Arts from Wagner College in Staten Island in 1979 and a Master of Divinity from Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 1984. Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Egensteiner will be installed Nov. 16 at The Cathedral Church of Saint John the Divine in New York.

The Rev. Donald J. McCoid has served as interim bishop since 2018.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod is available at www.mnys.org/ (http://www.mnys.org/).


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7973 (https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7973)

I find it interesting that there's nothing in the ELCA News report about how MNYS has had an interim Bishop.

Pax, Steven+


Exactly the same statement was used in the report about the Grand Canyon Synod's election of a new bishop last year. "The Rev. Lowell G. Almen has served as interim bishop since 2017." No reason was given why we had an interim, although we in the synod knew. The former bishop told us in his synod newsletter article of March 20, 2017. (I decided to not try and weed through all of the ELCA News items to see if they reported his resignation to accept a call to a congregation.)


It may be that the ELCA news and The Lutheran have decided to give fewer details than in the past. I know that The Lutheran no longer gives causes of deaths in their lists.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Richard Johnson on May 23, 2019, 06:01:14 PM
It may be that the news office, like many synodical offices, finds it useful just to have templates where you can fill in the blanks. Saves so much time when you don't have to actually report on the news. In our synod, the announcements that come out (if they do) about the death of a pastor always say exactly the same thing. Doesn't matter if the pastor had served the largest church in the synod for 35 years, or just moved to California two months before his/her death. There's never a personal word included.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John_Hannah on May 23, 2019, 07:02:12 PM
It may be that the news office, like many synodical offices, finds it useful just to have templates where you can fill in the blanks. Saves so much time when you don't have to actually report on the news. In our synod, the announcements that come out (if they do) about the death of a pastor always say exactly the same thing. Doesn't matter if the pastor had served the largest church in the synod for 35 years, or just moved to California two months before his/her death. There's never a personal word included.

Move! Before they will do that to you.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 02, 2019, 01:31:24 PM
The ELCA's Southeastern Synod Assembly has elected Pr. Kevin Strickland as its new bishop.

https://www.elm.org/profiles/strickland/ (https://www.elm.org/profiles/strickland/)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 02, 2019, 11:49:53 PM
The ELCA's Southeastern Synod Assembly has elected Pr. Kevin Strickland as its new bishop.

https://www.elm.org/profiles/strickland/ (https://www.elm.org/profiles/strickland/)

Looks like I've got a really hard decision to pray over.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 12:29:12 AM
Mr. Erdner writes:
Looks like I've got a really hard decision to pray over.
I ask:
What is so hard? You pray for the health and well-being of the bishop that God and your fellow believers have chosen to lead your synod. Right?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 03, 2019, 11:27:37 AM
You are not that obtuse, Charles.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 11:32:31 AM
No, but I am that whimsical.
But if he is true to his previous individualistic religion, it shouldn’t matter to him who the bishop is, so long as the pastor in “his” church is OK.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 03, 2019, 11:38:34 AM
You are not that obtuse, Charles.

Yes, he is. Anyone who is as snarky as he is, and then pretends it's "whimsy", is most certainly obtuse. He's an excellent example of a Lutheran Pharisee.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 03, 2019, 11:59:25 AM
Any pastor on the ELCA Clergy Roster is eligible to be elected Bishop of any Synod.

The definition of eligibility for that roster was changed on August 19, 2009.  At that point the die was cast.

The threshold of electing a clergy under that expanded definition to the office of Bishop was crossed several years  ago on the west coast.

All that has happened in the Southeast Synod is more of the same. 

Nothing new under the sun.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Keith Falk on June 03, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
Any pastor on the ELCA Clergy Roster is eligible to be elected Bishop of any Synod.

The definition of eligibility for that roster was changed on August 19, 2009.  At that point the die was cast.

The threshold of electing a clergy under that expanded definition to the office of Bishop was crossed several years  ago on the west coast.

All that has happened in the Southeast Synod is more of the same. 

Nothing new under the sun.


I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 12:40:04 PM
Pr. Austin may refer to George's religion as individualistic, but I think it is better understood as a sensible personal piety. Without that it's impossible to thrive in the ELCA. The fact that George says he'll pray about this is a good sign. He'll be fine.

Let the scoffers scoff. George has got it right.

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 12:45:04 PM
I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.

Ask any ELCA participant on this forum. We are not the same church we were in 2007. That church is gone.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 12:47:35 PM
Pr. Austin may refer to George's religion as individualistic, but I think it is better understood as a sensible personal piety. Without that it's impossible to thrive in the ELCA. The fact that George says he'll pray about this is a good sign. He'll be fine.

Let the scoffers scoff. George has got it right.

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

We must also remember that CWA 2009 introduced such individualism or congregationalism into the ELCA.  We were told after that assembly that each congregation would be able to determine which of the four positions in HSGT it would in fact teach and confess.  "What does it matter to you?  You don't have to call a partnered homosexual if you don't want to," was the refrain from defenders of the decision.  In a similar manner, we were told that each individual would be able to hold his/her conscience bound position.

Those who introduced individualism and congregationalism ought to be consistent and encourage the same attitude in 2019, or admit they never really meant it.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 12:52:09 PM
 The church I was baptized in his gone. The church I was confirmed in is gone. The church I was ordained in is gone. And that’s the way it should be. Life moves on in new directions.
And that is the way God leads us. By leading us through changes.  The essentials remain the same. But many things that we mistakingly think are “church“ are gone.
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 01:10:24 PM
Since the Church is always changing and is never the same, it would help if there some identifying markers that would help people determine where the Church can actually be found.  In our day, even among Lutherans, there seems to be disagreement even over what those markers are.  I heard a member of this forum give a presentation where he suggested that 1) Scripture, 2) Confessions and 3) Common Liturgy were where we should look for unity as Lutherans.  Today it seems that we look for unity in terms of temporal power arrangements and common political advocacy.  I'm not sure that the Church can be sustained by the latter.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 01:15:26 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 03, 2019, 01:39:31 PM
Pr. Austin may refer to George's religion as individualistic, but I think it is better understood as a sensible personal piety. Without that it's impossible to thrive in the ELCA. The fact that George says he'll pray about this is a good sign. He'll be fine.

Let the scoffers scoff. George has got it right.

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

It took me a great deal of prayerful consideration to join a new ELCA congregation after leaving my previous one. I had no issue with being a permanent, full-time "visitor" and volunteer worship musician. I could have also done that at a congregation of any faith tradition that would have me. But it was very difficult for me to reconcile actually make a formal commitment to be affiliated with an ELCA congregation again. What convinced me was the newly called pastor at the church I was visiting for almost two years demonstrating that he was a confessional Lutheran, much like my former ELCA pastor. I came to understand that I could just ignore the antics of the ELCA's higher leadership, and just concentrate on my local congregation.

But this new development raises all the old issues over again. I'm seriously looking at a local LCMS congregation to see if I could serve as a volunteer musician and full-time "visitor". I'm also looking around at congregations from other faith traditions.

And any crusty old Lutheran Pharisee who wants to dismiss my valid spiritual concerns can stick his "whimsy" where the sun doesn't shine!
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 03, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.

From ejecting Schmeling to electing Strickland in a dozen years....definitely a rapid slide.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 04:10:09 PM
I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.

From ejecting Schmeling to electing Strickland in a dozen years....definitely a rapid slide.

I've mentioned this before, but for those who are new here, not one thing changed for Schmeling back then. He continued at his church without interruption and without any real consequence. On the other hand, Bp. Ronald Warren is no longer on the ELCA roster.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 03, 2019, 05:35:43 PM
The Southeastern Synod of the ELCA is composed of parishes in Georgia, Tennessee,
Alabama, and Mississippi.  Those states are not considered the breeding ground for liberals.
So this Synod elects as their Bishop a married homosexual pastor from Chicago.

Bottom Line:  This could be called "Out of the Closet Politics for The Old South"

Rev. Elizabeth Eaton was the first woman to become the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.
Should she be concerned that Rev. Strickland will someday replace her as the first married
homosexual Presiding Bishop of the ELCA???     




Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 06:09:22 PM
Why do you care? Why should anyone care?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: TERJr on June 03, 2019, 06:16:14 PM
The Southeastern Synod of the ELCA is composed of parishes in Georgia, Tennessee,
Alabama, and Mississippi.  Those states are not considered the breeding ground for liberals.
So this Synod elects as their Bishop a married homosexual pastor from Chicago.

Bottom Line:  This could be called "Out of the Closet Politics for The Old South"

Rev. Elizabeth Eaton was the first woman to become the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.
Should she be concerned that Rev. Strickland will someday replace her as the first married
homosexual Presiding Bishop of the ELCA???   

He went to Newberry and Southern and served two congregations in Tennessee. It’s not like he’s a carpetbagger. By all accounts, he’s a good pastor and a confessional Lutheran.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 03, 2019, 06:30:42 PM
Why do you care? Why should anyone care?
Presumably the people of the Southeastern Synod care since he is their bishop. Someday the people of the ELCA will care if he’s elected presiding bishop. Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?


Personally this new ELCA bishop doesn’t really effect me here in Michigan and in a different denomination that much. Except that we all share the name Lutheran and we’re told that we should be, if only we weren’t so persnickety and old fashioned, in some sort of fellowship. Doesn’t the ELCA claim to be in fellowship with all churches that confess the Augsburg Confession? Of course, in the evolving ethos of the ELCA perhaps adherence to positions 1 or 2 of HSGT is discouraged and fellowship with a body of adherents of positions 1 or 2 ot so important or desirable unless they see the error of their ways.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 06:49:46 PM
Pastor Fienen asks:
Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?
I comment:
Yes, but there’s nothing to indicate that there is anything to worry about at this particular Bishop-elect.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 03, 2019, 07:06:27 PM
Pastor Fienen asks:
Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?
I comment:
Yes, but there’s nothing to indicate that there is anything to worry about at this particular Bishop-elect.
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is. Unless those people don't count, of course.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:15:08 PM
I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.

Ask any ELCA participant on this forum. We are not the same church we were in 2007. That church is gone.


I’ve argued that the LCMS is not the same church as it was in 1970 when I attended one of the colleges. Many in the LCMS would say that it is a good change. Many in the ELCA would say that we’ve changed for the better.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:17:46 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:29:34 PM
Any pastor on the ELCA Clergy Roster is eligible to be elected Bishop of any Synod.

The definition of eligibility for that roster was changed on August 19, 2009.  At that point the die was cast.

The threshold of electing a clergy under that expanded definition to the office of Bishop was crossed several years  ago on the west coast.

All that has happened in the Southeast Synod is more of the same. 

Nothing new under the sun.


I think it is notable that a synod that made national new (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16694726/ns/us_news-life/t/gay-minister-could-be-barred-having-partner/#.XPVIo4hKiUk)s for starting proceedings to remove a partnered pastor in 2007 now has elected a gay married pastor.


The “synod” didn’t start the proceedings. The bishop did. A disciplinary hearing committee heard the charges and pronounced judgement against the accused. He was guilty according to the rules at that time. However, they wanted to delay removal until the churchwide assembly in a few months. The bishop appealed their decision. He won. While Pastor Schmeling was removed from the roster, the congregation did not remove him as their pastor. (The same thing was true of the other two pastors removed through the discipline hearing process for homosexual relationships - they were removed from the roster, but continued to serve as pastors of their congregations.)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:34:47 PM
The Southeastern Synod of the ELCA is composed of parishes in Georgia, Tennessee,
Alabama, and Mississippi.  Those states are not considered the breeding ground for liberals.
So this Synod elects as their Bishop a married homosexual pastor from Chicago.

Bottom Line:  This could be called "Out of the Closet Politics for The Old South"

Rev. Elizabeth Eaton was the first woman to become the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.
Should she be concerned that Rev. Strickland will someday replace her as the first married
homosexual Presiding Bishop of the ELCA???   


Bishop Strickland is not the first synod bishop to be in a same-sex marriage.
He was not the first married homosexual to have a leadership position at our ELCA Churchwide offices.



Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 07:36:25 PM
Pastor Fienen asks:
Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?
I comment:
Yes, but there’s nothing to indicate that there is anything to worry about at this particular Bishop-elect.
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is. Unless those people don't count, of course.

I may be missing something.  If he, was my bishop, which he isn't, I would expect two things in regard ELCA policy:

1.  That he is committed to applying the policies adopted in 2009 and keeping the promises made then.
2.  That he deals honestly and openly with all in his synod regardless of their theological position on sensitive matters.

Right now, the fact that he is married to his same sex partner makes him an old fuddy-duddy in the ELCA in which so many are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:38:32 PM
Pastor Fienen asks:
Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?
I comment:
Yes, but there’s nothing to indicate that there is anything to worry about at this particular Bishop-elect.
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is. Unless those people don't count, of course.


Yes, there is something to worry about: there can be problems for rostered people and congregations who do not respect the office of their bishop.


I imagine that’s also true in the LCMS. If a pastor continually bad-mouths his district president, he will have something to worry about.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 07:42:26 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?

The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Really?  Not in my synod.  According the the keynote speakers at recent synod assemblies, it is:

1.  Inclusivity instead of Forgiveness (Shauna Hannon)
2.  Justice instead of Forgiveness (Stephen Bouman)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 07:43:10 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:52:05 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?

The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Really?  Not in my synod.  According the the keynote speakers at recent synod assemblies, it is:

1.  Inclusivity instead of Forgiveness (Shauna Hannon)
2.  Justice instead of Forgiveness (Stephen Bouman)


A keynote speech is not a sermon. What happened in the worship services?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 03, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.


All are invited to have Jesus forgive their sins. Do you have a problem with that?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 08:04:13 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.


All are invited to have Jesus forgive their sins. Do you have a problem with that?

Only if you leave out the part about Jesus, forgiveness, and sins.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 08:26:59 PM
Pastor Charlton writes:
Right now, the fact that he is married to his same sex partner makes him an old fuddy-duddy in the ELCA in which so many are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory.
I ask:
Can you give me some examples of the “many” who are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory? Like names and places?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 08:47:02 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?

The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Really?  Not in my synod.  According the the keynote speakers at recent synod assemblies, it is:

1.  Inclusivity instead of Forgiveness (Shauna Hannon)
2.  Justice instead of Forgiveness (Stephen Bouman)

A keynote speech is not a sermon. What happened in the worship services?

The word "agenda" implies intentionality.  I'm not referring to what is done out of habit or tradition.  I'm referring to the theological vision of the mission of the Church.  That vision no longer makes forgiveness of sins for Jesus sake a priority.  When I listen to a keynote that focuses on Article 3, 4, and 5, I'll change my mind.  When I hear a keynote on preaching the Gospel, I'll change my mind, etc...  However, when in a keynote I am told that forgiveness of sins is not the Gospel for us today, but that "the Gospel of the Justice of Jesus" is, then I will conclude that the agenda of my synod has changed.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 08:48:35 PM
Pastor Charleston writes:
I may be missing something.  If he, was my bishop, which he isn't, I would expect two things in regard ELCA policy:
1.  That he is committed to applying the policies adopted in 2009 and keeping the promises made then.
2.  That he deals honestly and openly with all in his synod regardless of their theological position on sensitive matters.

I comment:
But hasn’t our experience in the past 10 years shown that it is the people who are opposed to same-sex marriage who cannot tolerate the presence in their pulpits of people who are in that committed marriage?  Where is their acceptance?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 03, 2019, 09:00:56 PM
No Christian is obligated to accept homosexual marriage.  Holy Scripture in the New Testament condemns
the sexual practice of two men committing sodomy.  So we now have married homosexual bishops in the
ELCA.  The exodus from the ELCA which begin in earnest after 2009 will continue in the future as the Synods
become more brazen in electing married homosexual bishops.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 09:04:38 PM
Pastor Charleston writes:
I may be missing something.  If he, was my bishop, which he isn't, I would expect two things in regard ELCA policy:
1.  That he is committed to applying the policies adopted in 2009 and keeping the promises made then.
2.  That he deals honestly and openly with all in his synod regardless of their theological position on sensitive matters.

I comment:
But hasn’t our experience in the past 10 years shown that it is the people who are opposed to same-sex marriage who cannot tolerate the presence in their pulpits of people who are in that committed marriage? 

Churls.  Oh, disingenuous one.  The policies adopted in 2009 recognize as legitimate the choice not to call a person in a same-sex marriage.  It also permits a congregation to choose to do so.  Those of us who remained the the ELCA have chosen to abide by those policies.  Those policies also promise to make room in all three expressions of the ELCA for people who hold any of the 4 approved position.  I am not aware of any traditionalist who remained in the ELCA who refuses to do that.  However, I am aware that two seminaries have purged all faculty and staff who hold traditional views.  I am aware that many synodical and churchwide officials speak and act as if position 4 is the only acceptable position.  I am aware of at least one conference where mobbing was used to harass a pastor who held traditional views while remaining in the ELCA.

Quote
Were is their acceptance?
 
Their acceptance is shown by their decision to remain in the ELCA.  Those who could not accept the new reality left.  You know that.

By the way, I don't think Bishop Strickland sexual orientation has anything to do with his integrity in regard to points 1 and 2 above.  The point was that if I was in his synod, I would be care more about his ability to act with integrity than is sexual orientation. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 09:14:35 PM
Pastor Charlton writes:
Right now, the fact that he is married to his same sex partner makes him an old fuddy-duddy in the ELCA in which so many are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory.
I ask:
Can you give me some examples of the “many” who are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory? Like names and places?

Nadia Bolz-Weber, LSTC, Naked and Unashamed, Clint Schnekloth and the ELCA Facebook Group, ELCA National Youth Gathering, Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries, the ELCA Church Council, etc...
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 09:17:45 PM
Peter writes (re the bishop-elect):
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is (in violation). Unless those people don't count, of course.
I ask:
Tell me how he is not in conformance with our policies.
10 years after we made certain decisions, it seems clear that our church is moving beyond the decisions made 10 years ago and into a new kind of understanding of certain things. It would seem that we are becoming a church where the majority of the people accept a certain aspect of the 2009 decisions. Hundreds of congregations who could not accept those decisions left us. I don’t think it is clear yet exactly where this is leading.
The episcopal church reached a time when it could no longer accommodate those who forever refused to accept women priests. I wonder if we will reach a time when we can no longer accommodate those who will not accept the ministries of a significant number of our ordained leaders.

P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 03, 2019, 09:22:19 PM
Pastor Charlton writes:
Right now, the fact that he is married to his same sex partner makes him an old fuddy-duddy in the ELCA in which so many are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory.
I ask:
Can you give me some examples of the “many” who are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory? Like names and places?

Do your own homework, Pr. Austin,...and try to get out more.

https://www.elm.org/2018/11/29/gods-infinite-love-a-reflection-on-being-poly-from-a-proclaim-member/ (https://www.elm.org/2018/11/29/gods-infinite-love-a-reflection-on-being-poly-from-a-proclaim-member/)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/510891588962312/?ref=group_header (https://www.facebook.com/groups/510891588962312/?ref=group_header)

http://mastmedia.plu.edu/2014/sex-positive-with-multiple-partners-polyamory/ (http://mastmedia.plu.edu/2014/sex-positive-with-multiple-partners-polyamory/)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 09:24:29 PM
P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.

Oh, whimsical one, please notice that I'm giving a backhanded compliment.  I think it is sufficient to show that Bishop Strickland is behind the times.  Same-sex marriage is so passe, so 2014. He is so Trustworthy Servants, with its marriage as the single standard for all pastors.  He is a fuddy-duddy.  He is a square. 

However, for the whimsy impaired, I'll state it in plain terms:  I respect him.  He is doing exactly what a pastor who believes that same-sex unions are in accordance with God's will should do.  He is married to his partner.  Its the people who refuse to avail themselves of marriage when it is available that frustrate me. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 03, 2019, 09:34:33 PM
Peter writes (re the bishop-elect):
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is (in violation). Unless those people don't count, of course.
I ask:
Tell me how he is not in conformance with our policies.
10 years after we made certain decisions, it seems clear that our church is moving beyond the decisions made 10 years ago and into a new kind of understanding of certain things. It would seem that we are becoming a church where the majority of the people accept a certain aspect of the 2009 decisions. Hundreds of congregations who could not accept those decisions left us. I don’t think it is clear yet exactly where this is leading.
The episcopal church reached a time when it could no longer accommodate those who forever refused to accept women priests. I wonder if we will reach a time when we can no longer accommodate those who will not accept the ministries of a significant number of our ordained leaders.

P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.
So, those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 03, 2019, 09:35:32 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.


All are invited to have Jesus forgive their sins. Do you have a problem with that?

Only if you leave out the part about Jesus, forgiveness, and sins.

Or the part about repenting. As I recall, and Chuck will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, or even if I'm not, when Jesus told the adulteress "Your sins are forgiven", He also said, "Now go, and sin no more." Jesus did not say, "Now go, and return to your life of adultery."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 09:40:45 PM
Peter writes (re the bishop-elect):
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is (in violation). Unless those people don't count, of course.
I ask:
Tell me how he is not in conformance with our policies.
10 years after we made certain decisions, it seems clear that our church is moving beyond the decisions made 10 years ago and into a new kind of understanding of certain things. It would seem that we are becoming a church where the majority of the people accept a certain aspect of the 2009 decisions. Hundreds of congregations who could not accept those decisions left us. I don’t think it is clear yet exactly where this is leading.
The episcopal church reached a time when it could no longer accommodate those who forever refused to accept women priests. I wonder if we will reach a time when we can no longer accommodate those who will not accept the ministries of a significant number of our ordained leaders.

P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.
So, those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?

If Pastor Augustine is correct, then "Moving Beyond Our Promises" should be the slogan of the ELCA. Or perhaps "Not Bound by God's Word or Ours" would better. 

I'm not surprised.  Some months ago, Pastor Austin refused to agree that the speaking the truth and keeping promises are essential to true community in the ELCA.  I don't think it is too much to expect the ELCA to keep its promises until such time as a CWA changes the policy adopted in 2009.  I believe that there are a few ELCA bishops who have the integrity to abide by the promises made in 2009. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Gary Hatcher on June 03, 2019, 09:43:13 PM
Peter writes (re the bishop-elect):
Except that according to officially endorsed doctrine of the ELCA, there is (in violation). Unless those people don't count, of course.
I ask:
Tell me how he is not in conformance with our policies.
10 years after we made certain decisions, it seems clear that our church is moving beyond the decisions made 10 years ago and into a new kind of understanding of certain things. It would seem that we are becoming a church where the majority of the people accept a certain aspect of the 2009 decisions. Hundreds of congregations who could not accept those decisions left us. I don’t think it is clear yet exactly where this is leading.
The episcopal church reached a time when it could no longer accommodate those who forever refused to accept women priests. I wonder if we will reach a time when we can no longer accommodate those who will not accept the ministries of a significant number of our ordained leaders.

P.S. to Pastor Charlton: If that is your only specific and broad sweeping response to my question, and if you think that answers my question asking you to provide the evidence needed to support your assertions, then you need to think again. But carry on. I see a dead end ahead.
So, those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?
That about sums it up in the ELCA.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 10:53:38 PM
Pastor Charlton writes:
Some months ago, Pastor Austin refused to agree that the speaking the truth and keeping promises are essential to true community in the ELCA.  I don't think it is too much to expect the ELCA to keep its promises until such time as a CWA changes the policy adopted in 2009.  I believe that there are a few ELCA bishops who have the integrity to abide by the promises made in 2009. 

I comment:
Well, the phrase "true community in the ELCA" requires considerable unpacking. Is there "true community" if a large number of our congregations refuse to accept the ministry of a large number of our pastors? If congregations refuse to accept the ministry of their bishop? If your synod, Pastor Charlton, were to elect a married gay or lesbian bishop; would your congregation welcome that bishop and spouse at your anniversary celebrations or other events? Would you and your congregation accept that bishop's ministry in synodical worship and other events?
   Perhaps we should set aside Church-wide Assembly "promises" or other actions and consider the reality. We are 10 years past those decisions. Many were so opposed that they could no longer be with us. They left, at least 700 congregations.
   Meanwhile the ELCA has expanded the number of married gay and lesbian pastors and bishops and - based on my observation at recent Churchwide Assemblies - the issue is not an "issue."
   Perhaps our efforts to accommodate those who disagreed with parts of the 2009 decisions have failed.
   I'm not sure what this will mean or how it will be played out.
   But I do believe that the large majority of people and parishes in the ELCA are preaching, teaching, celebrating, serving and building up the people of God all over the country. And a significant number of congregations are doing it with gay and lesbian pastors and in synods with bishops in same-sex marriages.
   I asked a couple of young people recently if the "gay issue" in their churches was a "thing." It isn't; and they - active Lutherans all - have no problem with it. According to them, neither do their friends and they can't even see why we are still talking about it.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 10:59:56 PM
And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 03, 2019, 11:06:57 PM
   But I do believe that the large majority of people and parishes in the ELCA are preaching, teaching, celebrating, serving and building up the people of God all over the country. And a significant number of congregations are doing it with gay and lesbian pastors and in synods with bishops in same-sex marriages.
   I asked a couple of young people recently if the "gay issue" in their churches was a "thing." It isn't; and they - active Lutherans all - have no problem with it. According to them, neither do their friends and they can't even see why we are still talking about it.

Summary:  Position 4--exclusively--is the "new normal".

In 2009 orthodoxy became optional.
A decade later it has become proscribed.

Kyrie eleison.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 11:07:42 PM
Perhaps we should set aside Church-wide Assembly "promises" or other actions and consider the reality. We are 10 years past those decisions.

Is that how you view your marriage vows?  "Oh, honey, that was ten years ago. You don't really expect me to keep those promises today?  Let's consider the reality today."

Its more likely that in the case of the 2009 promises, y'all never meant them anyway.  In other words, y'all lied in order to get your way. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 03, 2019, 11:20:12 PM
Well, the phrase "true community in the ELCA" requires considerable unpacking. Is there "true community" if a large number of our congregations refuse to accept the ministry of a large number of our pastors? If congregations refuse to accept the ministry of their bishop? If your synod, Pastor Charlton, were to elect a married gay or lesbian bishop; would your congregation welcome that bishop and spouse at your anniversary celebrations or other events? Would you and your congregation accept that bishop's ministry in synodical worship and other events?

I think we could.  On the other hand, if we had bishop who had the kind of contempt for promises that you have, we would have a problem.  Honest disagreement about theology is one thing. I don't think that a person who honestly believes that God sanctions same-sex marriage is evil.  I think a person who practices lying and manipulation is evil.  You with your casual contempt for promises might not be welcome.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Gary Hatcher on June 03, 2019, 11:23:45 PM
And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.
If by 'good faith' you mean pushing the LBGTQ et al in everything from youth gatherings, to Living Lutheran, to the most recent draft social statement, adding to that full acceptance of LBGTQ et al goals with no discussion, no resolutions and no vote at any Churchwide assembly.  Of course, that trajectory should have been clear in 2010 when we were told that no resolution to reconsider the 2009 decision would be allowed. If that is what you mean by 'good faith' I would not like to see what it would be like if the ELCA had acted duplicitously.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 03, 2019, 11:42:18 PM
Pastor Charlton:
Its more likely that in the case of the 2009 promises, y'all never meant them anyway.  In other words, y'all lied in order to get your way. 

Me;
Well, I’all never voted on anything, so....
   I spot some errors in the postings by Pastor Charlton and and Pastor Hatcher, but I suspect it would do no good to unpack them here.
   We can all see the trajectory of the events, and we have all been present how they have unfolded so far. I don’t know why people seem to be surprised at where we have ended up. But here we are.
   I know what I’m going to do. What are y’all going to do?
   
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 03, 2019, 11:53:11 PM
My wife and I were sent from our Congregation in Pittsburgh to the Synod Assembly where Bishop Kusserow was chosen. We were also sent from our congregation to a Southeastern Synod Assembly in 2010 or 2011, where no one was selected for anything. Clearly, as new members at our new church, there's no way either of us would have been selected for this year's Synod Assembly. But I still wonder about selecting who goes, just as I wondered back in 2009 if there was any sort of subtle movement to cherry-pick who was sent to the Assembly. The people who did go from our congregation weren't nominated from the floor and elected at a congregational meeting. I don't know, or care, how they were selected at my current congregation.

I can't help but wonder if there was any careful steering of who was sent and who wasn't to ensure that the people at the assembly were of like minds on key issues. I have the same curiosity about the other synods in the ELCA. And some of the posts in this thread about some Synods circulating the equivalents of candidate lists have me wondering if maybe each snod should first have the clergy create a candidate roster and circulate it, and then have congregation members submit their own names as candidates for attending the Assembly for election at a congregational meeting. Had I known that Strickland was among the candidates, then I would have placed my hat into the ring to be selected to go to the Assembly.

Of course, I realize that in the ELCA, it's not considered polite to suggest ideas for how things should be. One simply accepts things as they are and either keeps one's mouth shut and accepts it or one leaves.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 12:05:16 AM

Pastor Charlton:
Its more likely that in the case of the 2009 promises, y'all never meant them anyway.  In other words, y'all lied in order to get your way. 

Me;
Well, I’all never voted on anything, so....
   I spot some errors in the postings by Pastor Charlton and and Pastor Hatcher, but I suspect it would do no good to unpack them here.
   We can all see the trajectory of the events, and we have all been present how they have unfolded so far. I don’t know why people seem to be surprised at where we have ended up. But here we are.
   I know what I’m going to do. What are y’all going to do?

I made the mistake of replying to you.  You have no respect for truth or promises.  I have a family member who is a high finctioning sociopath.  I can be cordial, but no real relationship is possible because, like you, he has no problem lying or breaking his word.  I should have learned not to waste my breath.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2019, 04:20:31 AM
Pastor Charlton writes:
I made the mistake of replying to you.  You have no respect for truth or promises.
I comment:
Whoa! The "truth" is that the ELCA is becoming more and more accepting of gay and lesbian pastors.
   The "truth" is that I have always - always! - from 2009 and on urged people who disagree with part of the decisions to remain in the ELCA, support the ELCA and learn how to live with our differences. I have also said I understand if someone cannot do that and feels they must leave.
   You refer to "promises" as if they were marriage vows. The actions of 2009 were not that, they were neither "promises" nor were they "vows." They were decisions (and you would have readily changed them if possible, thereby breaking "promises" to a significant segment of the ELCA).
   They were a (possibly failed) attempt to create ways for people to live together despite their difficulties. They were not wedding vows or "promises." They were pastoral and policy decisions.
   As I noted upstream, when it decided to ordain women, the Episcopal Church made it possible for certain dioceses to avoid dealing with women priests. That "worked" until, a couple of decades or more later, it didn't work anymore.
   I believe the ELCA - as ELCA - and most of our synods have done what they can to implement the decisions of 2009 that would enable synod and congregations to deal with partnered gay and lesbian pastors. That means paving the way for gay and lesbian pastors; and you don't seem to like that. I believe there have also been efforts to keep those who opposed to such things within our family. Some may have worked, some may have not been successful.
   I am sorry that you feel that you have been trampled upon. I do not wish to get into another round and round and round discussion about synod or church-wide assemblies; but I have been at every ELCA Churchwide Assembly since 2009 and found the "issue" becoming less and less of a "problem." If you and people who agree with you were trying to change the decisions of 2009 or alter how they were being implemented, you had chances to do so. (Now Steven will chime in to say they were always shot down at the synodical level, and I will say there were complicated reasons why some actions were set aside, so let's not run through that maze again.)
   If a congregation doesn't want to have a gay or lesbian pastor, married or celibate, it doesn't have to call one. If a pastor does not want to officiate at same-sex ceremonies, that pastor does not have to do so. But the reality is it will become increasingly possible for members of the ELCA to go through decades of involvement with our part of the church without encountering partnered gay and/or lesbian pastors who are married, have adopted children, and who help others do so.

Pastor Charlton writes:
I have a family member who is a high finctioning sociopath.  I can be cordial, but no real relationship is possible because, like you, he has no problem lying or breaking his word.  I should have learned not to waste my breath.
I comment;
If I got you that upset, I am sorry. I am just trying to describe the reality of the ELCA today. In the congregations I know best and among the pastors I respect the most, there are more pressing issues than this one. You think the ELCA has replaced the Gospel with "justice." I disagree, but that is another discussion.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 07:09:41 AM
   Perhaps our efforts to accommodate those who disagreed with parts of the 2009 decisions have failed.

Quote from: Assembly Action: CA09.05.26 Yes-559; No-451
RESOLVED, that the ELCA commit itself to finding a way for people in such publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships to serve as rostered leaders of this church.


Compare and contrast...
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on June 04, 2019, 07:33:29 AM
My wife and I were sent from our Congregation in Pittsburgh to the Synod Assembly where Bishop Kusserow was chosen. We were also sent from our congregation to a Southeastern Synod Assembly in 2010 or 2011, where no one was selected for anything. Clearly, as new members at our new church, there's no way either of us would have been selected for this year's Synod Assembly. But I still wonder about selecting who goes, just as I wondered back in 2009 if there was any sort of subtle movement to cherry-pick who was sent to the Assembly. The people who did go from our congregation weren't nominated from the floor and elected at a congregational meeting. I don't know, or care, how they were selected at my current congregation.

I can't help but wonder if there was any careful steering of who was sent and who wasn't to ensure that the people at the assembly were of like minds on key issues. I have the same curiosity about the other synods in the ELCA. And some of the posts in this thread about some Synods circulating the equivalents of candidate lists have me wondering if maybe each snod should first have the clergy create a candidate roster and circulate it, and then have congregation members submit their own names as candidates for attending the Assembly for election at a congregational meeting. Had I known that Strickland was among the candidates, then I would have placed my hat into the ring to be selected to go to the Assembly.

Of course, I realize that in the ELCA, it's not considered polite to suggest ideas for how things should be. One simply accepts things as they are and either keeps one's mouth shut and accepts it or one leaves.

Subtle movement!   More like a well-oiled political machine that ensured its candidate.  ;)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 07:38:24 AM

   I believe the ELCA - as ELCA - and most of our synods have done what they can to implement the decisions of 2009 that would enable synod and congregations to deal with partnered gay and lesbian pastors. That means paving the way for gay and lesbian pastors;

What would have happened if someone had said this out loud before 21 August 2009?

 

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 08:02:51 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
R. Guy Erwin re-elected bishop of the ELCA Southwest California Synod

CHICAGO (June 3, 2019) – The Rev. R. Guy Erwin was elected May 31 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the Southwest California Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 30 – June 1 at California Lutheran University in Thousand Oaks.

Erwin was elected on the third ballot, with 208 votes. A total of 196 votes were needed for election. He was first elected in 2013.

Prior to becoming bishop, Erwin served as the Gerhard and Olga Belgum Chair in Lutheran Confessional Theology at California Lutheran, one of the ELCA’s 27 colleges and universities. He also served as part-time interim pastor of Living Faith Lutheran Church in Santa Clarita; St. Andrew’s Lutheran Church in West Los Angeles; and Faith Lutheran in Canoga Park, all in California.

Erwin received a Bachelor of Arts degree from Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., in 1980 and a doctorate degree at Yale University, New Haven, Conn., in 1990.

Information about the ELCA Southwest California Synod is available at www.socalsynod.org//.

 
https://elca.org/News-and-Events/7977

Note: My mother is a member of Faith Lutheran in Canoga Park.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 08:04:17 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Constanze Hagmaier elected bishop of the ELCA South Dakota Synod

CHICAGO (June 3, 2019) – The Rev. Constanze Hagmaier, Madison, S.D., was elected June 1 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the South Dakota Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 31 – June 1 at Our Savior’s Lutheran Church in Sioux Falls, S.D.

Hagmaier was elected on the fifth ballot, with 250 votes. The Rev. Bill Tesch, director for evangelical mission and associate to the bishop of the South Dakota Synod, received 247.

The bishop-elect has served as administrative pastor of Trinity Lutheran Church in Madison, S.D., since 2009. She was pastor of Salem Lutheran Church in Parkston, S.D., from 2004 to 2009 and of Our Savior’s Lutheran Church in Waubay, S.D. from 2001 to 2004.

The bishop-elect received a Master of Divinity degree from Ruprecht Karl’s University in Heidelberg, Germany, in 1999, and she affiliated with Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minn., after emigrating to the United States in 2000. Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Hagmaier will be installed Sept. 7 at Gloria Dei Lutheran Church in Sioux Falls.

The Rev. David B. Zellmer has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the South Dakota Synod is available at sdsynod.org.


https://elca.org/News-and-Events/7978
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 08:06:30 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Kevin Strickland elected bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Synod

CHICAGO (June 3, 2019) – The Rev. Kevin L. Strickland, Chicago, was elected June 2 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Southeastern Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 30 – June 2 at the Chattanooga (Tenn.) Convention Center.

Strickland was elected on the fifth ballot, with 199 votes. The Rev. Tiffany Chaney, pastor of Gathered by Grace Lutheran Church in Montgomery, Ala., received 158.

The bishop-elect has served as assistant to the bishop and executive for worship with the ELCA churchwide organization in Chicago since 2014. He served as pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Nashville, Tenn., from 2011 to 2014, and of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Maryville, Tenn., from 2008 to 2011.

Strickland received a Bachelor of Arts from Newberry (S.C.) College in 2004 and a Master of Divinity from Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary in 2008. Newberry is one of 27 ELCA colleges and universities, and Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary of Lenoir-Rhyne University, Hickory, N.C., is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Strickland will be installed Oct. 5 at St. Philip’s Episcopal Cathedral in Atlanta.

The Rev. H. Julian Gordy has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Southeastern Synod is available at elca-ses.org.


https://elca.org/News-and-Events/7979
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 08:15:08 AM

   I believe the ELCA - as ELCA - and most of our synods have done what they can to implement the decisions of 2009 that would enable synod and congregations to deal with partnered gay and lesbian pastors. That means paving the way for gay and lesbian pastors;

What would have happened if someone had said this out loud before 21 August 2009?

I honestly believe that those people in the ELCA, lay and clergy alike, who favored the 2009 decision, would have still worked diligently behind the scenes to ensure that as many people who were sympathetic to the cause would be selected to attend the CWA. The 2009 decision passed by ONE VOTE. I truly believe that had the lay people people selected to attend the 2009 CWA had been selected purely at random, there wouldn't have been enough support. At the Synod Assembly my wife and I were picked for where Bishop Kusserow was elected, there were some pro homosexual issues on the table, but none of them passed. I thought little of it at the time. But looking back, those lay people who supported those early initiatives all knew each other despite not all belonging to the same congregation. There was a level of organization, and well-prepared statements made from the floor in favor of the initiatives. Those who spoke in opposition were obviously speaking extemporaneously. It is only looking back in retrospect that the degree of planning and coordination that went into the pro-homosexual contingent becomes apparent.

So, had it been said out loud before 2009, I doubt if it would have made any difference. When a sizeable bloc of the people doing the voting on an issue have been hand-picked and well-coordinated in their efforts, chances are that eventually they'll prevail over a random group of strangers.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Gary Hatcher on June 04, 2019, 08:56:12 AM
Pastor Charlton:
Its more likely that in the case of the 2009 promises, y'all never meant them anyway.  In other words, y'all lied in order to get your way. 

Me;
Well, I’all never voted on anything, so....
  I spot some errors in the postings by Pastor Charlton and and Pastor Hatcher, but I suspect it would do no good to unpack them here.
   We can all see the trajectory of the events, and we have all been present how they have unfolded so far. I don’t know why people seem to be surprised at where we have ended up. But here we are.
   I know what I’m going to do. What are y’all going to do?
 

Please, Charles, point out my errors. If I have given incorrect information I need to correct it We are accepting of LBGTQ et in the ELCA. There were no churchwide discussions, forums or debates. There was no churchwide vote. We voted to roster gay and lesbian clergy in committed relationships in 2009. We did not vote to roster any other sexual minority. The stance at official ELCA events and publications are promoting the LBGTQ et al goals and if the traditional understanding marriage has been supported I must have missed it. Pastors are being denied calls because they will not perform same-sex weddings, no other reason. We were told at the 2010 NE Iowa Synod assembly that any resolution to reconsider the 2009 passage of HSGT would be ruled out of order. Had HSGT failed to pass in 2009 we all know it would have come back again and again until it did pass. Please point out my errors.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 04, 2019, 09:25:20 AM
The interesting thing is to think back a decade and recall the conversations. Back then, everyone could see the trajectory (there is no denying that on either side) but anyone on the conservative side who pointed it out or factored it into the debate was told they were make uncharitable assumptions, that the decision was limited, that slippery-slope reasoning didn't apply, and all the warnings were just absurd, "the sky is falling" alarmism designed to scare people away from making bold progress. After the fact, though, when conservatives make any effort to prevent things from sliding down the (supposedly imaginary) slippery slope, the descent to the bottom is justified as, "Hey, this is water under the bridge, we knew where we were going when we made that decision, you need to get on board or get left behind, etc."

In short, yes, everyone knew, or should have known, in 2009, that the real vote was not on the text of the motion but over whether the church body would swallow an entire progressive worldview on sexuality, relationships and family. That is, what Nadia-Bolz-Weber is saying now, and the even more absurd things that will be said in ten years, were up for a vote in 2009. It was a vote over what road to go down, not a vote over some specific change in wording.

The mendacity by which progressives denied vehemently back then that that was the case, followed by the tenacity with which they made sure it was the case afterward, and the disdain by which they now look on those naive enough to have believed them when they said this current situation wasn't what they were voting on all along all add up to part of the reason so many conservatives are justifiably bitter and see no future in the ELCA.   

 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?
Peter, of course, puts the nastiest possible twist on what happened in 2009. And his riff on what “everyone knew” is pretty far off the mark. I was there, and I did not see it that way. I was working as a reporter, and talked to many people on both sides. The “conservatives” were of course the most upset.
I felt at the time that the “accommodation given to one side was shaky, but I did not see any ill will in offering it.
As I stated upstream, the accommodation was instantly rejected by hundreds of congregations. And many who did not leave at that time apparently rejected it also.
As for the constant comments about “that side” being “politically organized,” yes, that was the case. And the other side had exactly the same opportunity to organize themselves. And in many ways they did. They were as present at that assembly with their booths, their brochures, and their lobbying as any other side in the dispute.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
Maybe if we were honest and just said "homosexual" instead of that stupid euphemism Acronym we wouldn't have this problem.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 04, 2019, 10:06:02 AM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?


Given the current assault on traditional marriage and family these days, No, it can not just be assumed.  But you know that already, or you are wearing blinders, or galactically ignorant, or various combinations of the three.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 04, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?
Peter, of course, puts the nastiest possible twist on what happened in 2009. And his riff on what “everyone knew” is pretty far off the mark. I was there, and I did not see it that way. I was working as a reporter, and talked to many people on both sides. The “conservatives” were of course the most upset.
I felt at the time that the “accommodation given to one side was shaky, but I did not see any ill will in offering it.
As I stated upstream, the accommodation was instantly rejected by hundreds of congregations. And many who did not leave at that time apparently rejected it also.
As for the constant comments about “that side” being “politically organized,” yes, that was the case. And the other side had exactly the same opportunity to organize themselves. And in many ways they did. They were as present at that assembly with their booths, their brochures, and their lobbying as any other side in the dispute.
I'm pretty sure if I felt like wading through conversations in this forum from 9-11 years ago, I would find my analysis above-- that the slippery slope is denied until the vote, then assumed as something everyone should have known-- applied the around the time of the 2009 vote, and your predictable responses proving my point. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 10:28:09 AM
Pastor Charlton writes:
I have a family member who is a high finctioning sociopath.  I can be cordial, but no real relationship is possible because, like you, he has no problem lying or breaking his word.  I should have learned not to waste my breath.
I comment;
If I got you that upset, I am sorry. I am just trying to describe the reality of the ELCA today. In the congregations I know best and among the pastors I respect the most, there are more pressing issues than this one. You think the ELCA has replaced the Gospel with "justice." I disagree, but that is another discussion.

You misunderstand me.  This is personal.  You mock the notion of leaders keeping promises.  You mock the simple desire that leaders not have hidden agendas.  Conversation with such a person is pointless. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 10:29:35 AM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?
Peter, of course, puts the nastiest possible twist on what happened in 2009. And his riff on what “everyone knew” is pretty far off the mark. I was there, and I did not see it that way. I was working as a reporter, and talked to many people on both sides. The “conservatives” were of course the most upset.
I felt at the time that the “accommodation given to one side was shaky, but I did not see any ill will in offering it.
As I stated upstream, the accommodation was instantly rejected by hundreds of congregations. And many who did not leave at that time apparently rejected it also.
As for the constant comments about “that side” being “politically organized,” yes, that was the case. And the other side had exactly the same opportunity to organize themselves. And in many ways they did. They were as present at that assembly with their booths, their brochures, and their lobbying as any other side in the dispute.
I'm pretty sure if I felt like wading through conversations in this forum from 9-11 years ago, I would find my analysis above-- that the slippery slope is denied until the vote, then assumed as something everyone should have known-- applied the around the time of the 2009 vote, and your predictable responses proving my point.

The Law of Merited Impossibility: That will never happen, and when it does you will deserve it.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on June 04, 2019, 10:31:05 AM

   I believe the ELCA - as ELCA - and most of our synods have done what they can to implement the decisions of 2009 that would enable synod and congregations to deal with partnered gay and lesbian pastors. That means paving the way for gay and lesbian pastors;

What would have happened if someone had said this out loud before 21 August 2009?

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference. I think we had to see it play out.  A pastor in NY who was supportive of the 2009 measures and argued for years that there was no slippery slope with some of the previous decisions was a bit appalled at the MNYS assembly where a gay pastor answered a question as to why she should be bishop.  Among some obvious answers that one might give she said that she wanted to show that gay people can be bishop and it would be a 21st anniversary present to her wife.  I don't think people really understood what was coming.

As well, I don't think those who voted for it (and from comments I heard a lot of it had to do with, 'gosh, we need to love one another') realized that the G and L would ten years later be the alphabet it has become.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on June 04, 2019, 10:33:00 AM
The interesting thing is to think back a decade and recall the conversations. Back then, everyone could see the trajectory (there is no denying that on either side) but anyone on the conservative side who pointed it out or factored it into the debate was told they were make uncharitable assumptions, that the decision was limited, that slippery-slope reasoning didn't apply, and all the warnings were just absurd, "the sky is falling" alarmism designed to scare people away from making bold progress. After the fact, though, when conservatives make any effort to prevent things from sliding down the (supposedly imaginary) slippery slope, the descent to the bottom is justified as, "Hey, this is water under the bridge, we knew where we were going when we made that decision, you need to get on board or get left behind, etc."

In short, yes, everyone knew, or should have known, in 2009, that the real vote was not on the text of the motion but over whether the church body would swallow an entire progressive worldview on sexuality, relationships and family. That is, what Nadia-Bolz-Weber is saying now, and the even more absurd things that will be said in ten years, were up for a vote in 2009. It was a vote over what road to go down, not a vote over some specific change in wording.

The mendacity by which progressives denied vehemently back then that that was the case, followed by the tenacity with which they made sure it was the case afterward, and the disdain by which they now look on those naive enough to have believed them when they said this current situation wasn't what they were voting on all along all add up to part of the reason so many conservatives are justifiably bitter and see no future in the ELCA.   

 

Spot on.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 10:56:10 AM

   I believe the ELCA - as ELCA - and most of our synods have done what they can to implement the decisions of 2009 that would enable synod and congregations to deal with partnered gay and lesbian pastors. That means paving the way for gay and lesbian pastors;

What would have happened if someone had said this out loud before 21 August 2009?

I'm not convinced it would have made a difference. I think we had to see it play out.  A pastor in NY who was supportive of the 2009 measures and argued for years that there was no slippery slope with some of the previous decisions was a bit appalled at the MNYS assembly where a gay pastor answered a question as to why she should be bishop.  Among some obvious answers that one might give she said that she wanted to show that gay people can be bishop and it would be a 21st anniversary present to her wife.  I don't think people really understood what was coming.

As well, I don't think those who voted for it (and from comments I heard a lot of it had to do with, 'gosh, we need to love one another') realized that the G and L would ten years later be the alphabet it has become.

I think you're right.  Lay people, especially delegates to synod and churchwide assemblies, would not have been moved by that.  In fact, many of us warned the assemblies that we attended that the vote was not a both/and but an either/or.  Structured flexibility was not going to work.  In part that was because the ELCA couldn't have more than one policy at a time.  More importantly, it wouldn't work because the key players in the ELCA had no intention of making it work.  HSGT was a Trojan Horse that would enable the policy changes to be adopted.  Once the policy changes were adopted, HSGT would be set aside.

The average delegate to a synodical or churchwide assembly simply could not believe that the leaders of the ELCA would be so dishonest and manipulative.  When a representative of the synod or the ELCA said, "Believe me, this will work," they did believe.  In an ironic way, HSGT was right.  Trust was the foundation of whole proposal, but not in the way that it at first appeared.  Lay delegates were too trusting of their leaders to realize what was happening.

As far as congregations leaving the ELCA, I would say that this was the primary reason.  It wasn't the fear of sitting next to a gay or lesbian person.  It was the knowledge that key leaders were willing to win at any cost and the ultimate goal was the imposition of the whole LGBT agenda.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 11:11:26 AM
As well, I don't think those who voted for it (and from comments I heard a lot of it had to do with, 'gosh, we need to love one another') realized that the G and L would ten years later be the alphabet it has become.

Here's evidence of your own point, hidden in your post. G and L stand for "Gay and Lesbian". However, "Gay" refers to ALL homosexuals. Female homosexuals are "gay". The word "lesbian" simply describes a female gay person. So, the phrase "Gay and Lesbian" is similar to saying "Humans and women". There is no need to include lesbian or "L" when using the word "gay". It's redundant. But, it's one of those thoughtless habits we get into, just like using LGBTQRST or some other sequence of letters in an acronym deceives people into thinking that ALL forms of mutant sexuality or perversions are the same.

That's why I continually harp on the fact that if we're talking about homosexuals, we should be honest and spell out the entire word "homosexual". And, if for some reason that's just too many letters, let the word "gay" revert to it's proper English meaning of "happy", and use the first four letters of homosexual serve as the abbreviation. If it offends a homosexual to be called a homo, he (or she) needs to get their own minds into a better place, and just grow up.

On the one hand, as Christians, we shouldn't deliberately give offense. But on the other hand, Christian homos should learn to not take offense when none is intended. If homos don't want us to take offense at what they do to each other, then they shouldn't take offense at us using a perfectly adequate word to describe them.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 04, 2019, 11:20:41 AM
As well, I don't think those who voted for it (and from comments I heard a lot of it had to do with, 'gosh, we need to love one another') realized that the G and L would ten years later be the alphabet it has become.

Here's evidence of your own point, hidden in your post. G and L stand for "Gay and Lesbian". However, "Gay" refers to ALL homosexuals. Female homosexuals are "gay". The word "lesbian" simply describes a female gay person. So, the phrase "Gay and Lesbian" is similar to saying "Humans and women". There is no need to include lesbian or "L" when using the word "gay". It's redundant. But, it's one of those thoughtless habits we get into, just like using LGBTQRST or some other sequence of letters in an acronym deceives people into thinking that ALL forms of mutant sexuality or perversions are the same.

That's why I continually harp on the fact that if we're talking about homosexuals, we should be honest and spell out the entire word "homosexual". And, if for some reason that's just too many letters, let the word "gay" revert to it's proper English meaning of "happy", and use the first four letters of homosexual serve as the abbreviation. If it offends a homosexual to be called a homo, he (or she) needs to get their own minds into a better place, and just grow up.

On the one hand, as Christians, we shouldn't deliberately give offense. But on the other hand, Christian homos should learn to not take offense when none is intended. If homos don't want us to take offense at what they do to each other, then they shouldn't take offense at us using a perfectly adequate word to describe them.
The history of “homo” as a deliberate pejorative makes it very problematic in this context. I just don’t think reclaiming the original meaning of “gay” is worth the misunderstood that will inevitably result from the effort to use “homo” in a non-offensive way.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: David Garner on June 04, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?
Peter, of course, puts the nastiest possible twist on what happened in 2009. And his riff on what “everyone knew” is pretty far off the mark. I was there, and I did not see it that way. I was working as a reporter, and talked to many people on both sides. The “conservatives” were of course the most upset.
I felt at the time that the “accommodation given to one side was shaky, but I did not see any ill will in offering it.
As I stated upstream, the accommodation was instantly rejected by hundreds of congregations. And many who did not leave at that time apparently rejected it also.
As for the constant comments about “that side” being “politically organized,” yes, that was the case. And the other side had exactly the same opportunity to organize themselves. And in many ways they did. They were as present at that assembly with their booths, their brochures, and their lobbying as any other side in the dispute.
I'm pretty sure if I felt like wading through conversations in this forum from 9-11 years ago, I would find my analysis above-- that the slippery slope is denied until the vote, then assumed as something everyone should have known-- applied the around the time of the 2009 vote, and your predictable responses proving my point.

An observation I've made before is leftists invented gaslighting, only to feign outrage when they see others gaslighting.  It's one reason I've long said President Trump is more of a mirror to them than something observed from the outside. 

And it's why a friend of mine likes to say two things that I find apropos to your original point:

1). Anything a leftist accuses you of doing is something the leftist is doing right now, at this moment.

2). Before a leftist even begins to tell you that you are committing a slippery slope fallacy, another leftist has already slid all the way down the slope and is announcing "hey guys, it's not so bad down here after all!"
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 04, 2019, 11:33:33 AM

As a biased outsider who's observed the last decade of the ELCA mainly through conversations here on the Forum, this is my understanding. The resolutions passed at the CWA 2009 were proposed as a stated effort to allow both those whose conscience bound beliefs were that committed same sex sexual activity and relationships to be acceptable to God and God pleasing and those whose conscience bound beliefs were that such actions and relationships were inherently sinful and unacceptable to God to peacefully coexist in one church with mutual respect. Basically if you agreed that same sex activity and marriage were God pleasing, one could ordain and call such ministers and the door was open to perform same sex weddings. If a pastor or congregation did not agree they did not have to call pastors in same sex relationships, perform same sex marriages and their position would be respected.


At the time, the inherent difficulties of maintaining such a denominational relationship should have been, and were, apparent even if denied. Especially when dealing with each other in the church at large.


I find it disingenuous to complain that many who held positions 1 or 2 did not wait around but started to leave the ELCA, and that therefore since the ones who did not leave but nevertheless held those conscience bound positions and since they were then an even smaller percentage of the overall ELCA population no longer needed to be accommodated but should be expected to go along with the majority and accept homosexual pastors and same sex marriage.


I have no first hand experience to go by, so I ask in all sincerity and respect about the state of trying to accommodate all the positions laid out in HSGT.


*Are the wishes of congregations who specify that they do not want as interim pastors or called pastors who are in a same sex relationship honored?


*If a congregation specifies that they do not want an interim pastor or to call a pastor that will advocate for acceptance of homosexual relationships as God pleasing, will their choice be honored?


*Are men and women who are of positions 1 or 2 equally considered for faculty positions in ELCA universities, colleges, and seminaries?


*Are students at ELCA institutions of higher education discouraged from holding positions that disagree with the ordination of partnered homosexuals?


*In the publications and gatherings of the ELCA, including youth gatherings, are both positions, in favor of accepting same sex sexual relationships and opposed to same sex sexual relationship as God pleasing presented as viable and theologically acceptable positions in the teaching of the ELCA?


If in the broader activities of the ELCA, the conscience bound positions of those who disagree with the acceptance of same sex sexual relationships are not respected or treated as an accepted variation of the broad and inclusive nature of the ELCA how are those who do hold to positions 1 or 2 being accommodated? If not, were they ever supposed to be accommodated?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2019, 12:04:49 PM
Pastor Fienen asks a lot of questions, most of them, I suspect, leading to “gotcha!” answers.
Nothing is handled perfectly every time. In some cases, I’m sure the answer to his questions would be very favorable. In other cases, perhaps not. Life is complicated and there are many factors playing on each individual situation.
I again refer to the reality mentioned in other places. We are a denomination that is becoming more and more accepting of gay and lesbian same sex marriages.  I  honestly do not know what people who are totally, completely, biblically, morally, and personally opposed to this should do.
Silly comments about terminology, based on hatred of gay people, do not help.
Speculations on the mindset of the people who were making decisions in 2009 do not help. (But they do fan the flames in the hearts of those either in the ELCA or out of it who have despised us for some time.)
Within the ELCA, and in the congregations that I know best, this issue is not driving anything.
I don’t know what this means for the future.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 12:45:31 PM
As well, I don't think those who voted for it (and from comments I heard a lot of it had to do with, 'gosh, we need to love one another') realized that the G and L would ten years later be the alphabet it has become.

Here's evidence of your own point, hidden in your post. G and L stand for "Gay and Lesbian". However, "Gay" refers to ALL homosexuals. Female homosexuals are "gay". The word "lesbian" simply describes a female gay person. So, the phrase "Gay and Lesbian" is similar to saying "Humans and women". There is no need to include lesbian or "L" when using the word "gay". It's redundant. But, it's one of those thoughtless habits we get into, just like using LGBTQRST or some other sequence of letters in an acronym deceives people into thinking that ALL forms of mutant sexuality or perversions are the same.

That's why I continually harp on the fact that if we're talking about homosexuals, we should be honest and spell out the entire word "homosexual". And, if for some reason that's just too many letters, let the word "gay" revert to it's proper English meaning of "happy", and use the first four letters of homosexual serve as the abbreviation. If it offends a homosexual to be called a homo, he (or she) needs to get their own minds into a better place, and just grow up.

On the one hand, as Christians, we shouldn't deliberately give offense. But on the other hand, Christian homos should learn to not take offense when none is intended. If homos don't want us to take offense at what they do to each other, then they shouldn't take offense at us using a perfectly adequate word to describe them.
The history of “homo” as a deliberate pejorative makes it very problematic in this context. I just don’t think reclaiming the original meaning of “gay” is worth the misunderstood that will inevitably result from the effort to use “homo” in a non-offensive way.

To be totally honest, the main thrust of my post, the important part of my post, was to stop using any abbreviations, euphemisms, or acronyms, and simply refer to homosexuals as "homosexuals". If using "homo" offends you, maybe "queer" would be better. It is, after all, that's what the Q in LBGTQ stands for. Or, if that abbreviation for homosexual is offensive, then don't use any abbreviation and spell the whole word out. Honesty is still the best policy, or so I've been told.

What is so difficult about referring to homosexuals as "homosexuals"? What's the problem?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 12:54:08 PM
It's amazing how things have changed since I was in confirmation class back in the ULCA, and then the LCA. One of the fundamentals we were taught was that the church wasn't about what we wanted. It was about what God wanted. Questions that congregations were to decide on were about issues like what color carpets should go in the sanctuary. God never spoke about carpet colors in Scripture. When it came to things revealed in God's Word, what God said was what we were supposed to do.

How did that understanding get so twisted and perverted?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John Koke on June 04, 2019, 01:10:33 PM
It's amazing how things have changed since I was in confirmation class back in the ULCA, and then the LCA. One of the fundamentals we were taught was that the church wasn't about what we wanted. It was about what God wanted. Questions that congregations were to decide on were about issues like what color carpets should go in the sanctuary. God never spoke about carpet colors in Scripture. When it came to things revealed in God's Word, what God said was what we were supposed to do.

How did that understanding get so twisted and perverted?

In theory, nothing changed.  What changed was what some people said was actually revealed in God's Word.    :(
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 04, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
As far as congregations leaving the ELCA,... It wasn't the fear of sitting next to a gay or lesbian person. 

We all know this is the case. Pr. Austin continues to frame the issue in terms of traditionalist's fear or lack of acceptance, but we all know he does this just to irritate. It has no basis in reality.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 04, 2019, 02:04:28 PM
When it came to things revealed in God's Word, what God said was what we were supposed to do.

How did that understanding get so twisted and perverted?

In theory, nothing changed.  What changed was what some people said was actually revealed in God's Word.    :(

Things began to get perverted when the twisted serpent asked the question "Did God really say.....?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:12:00 PM
   Perhaps our efforts to accommodate those who disagreed with parts of the 2009 decisions have failed.

Quote from: Assembly Action: CA09.05.26 Yes-559; No-451
RESOLVED, that the ELCA commit itself to finding a way for people in such publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships to serve as rostered leaders of this church.


Compare and contrast...


But also consider CA09.05.27   Yes: 667; No: 307 boldface added
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America call upon its members to commit themselves to respect the bound consciences of those with whom they disagree regarding decisions on the call and rostering of individuals in publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships, in this church and with churches ecumenically and globally; and be it further
RESOLVED, that this church, because of its commitment to respect the bound consciences of all, declare its intent to allow structured flexibility in decision-making regarding the approving or disapproving in candidacy and the extending or not extending of a call to rostered service of a person who is otherwise qualified and who is living or contemplates living in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America make provision in its policies to eliminate the prohibition of rostered service by members who are in publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America make provision in its policies to recognize the conviction of members who believe that this church should not call or roster people in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the appropriate churchwide unit(s) be directed to develop, in consultation with the Conference of Bishops, and the Church Council be directed to approve, appropriate guidelines for a process by which congregations, synods, and the churchwide organization could hold people publicly accountable in their relationships who are in or contemplate being in lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships and who seek to be on the rosters of this church; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Committee on Appeals be directed to develop, in consultation with the Conference of Bishops, and the Church Council be directed to approve, appropriate amendments to “Definition and Guidelines for Discipline” and the Vocation and Education program unit be directed to draft, in consultation with the Conference of Bishops, and the Church Council is directed to approve, appropriate amendments to the “Vision and Expectations” documents and the Candidacy Manual to accomplish the intent of this resolution; and be it further
RESOLVED, that additional policies be developed, as necessary, so that those whom this church holds responsible for making decisions about fitness for rostered ministry in general and for call to a particular specific ELCA ministry may discern, and have guidance in discerning, the fitness for ministry of a member living in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship; and be it finally
RESOLVED, that this church continue to trust its established processes and those to whom it has given the responsibility to discern who should and should not be rostered or called to public ministry in this church.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John Koke on June 04, 2019, 02:15:27 PM
When it came to things revealed in God's Word, what God said was what we were supposed to do.

How did that understanding get so twisted and perverted?

In theory, nothing changed.  What changed was what some people said was actually revealed in God's Word.    :(

Things began to get perverted when the twisted serpent asked the question "Did God really say.....?

Yup.  The pastor who taught my confirmation class was apt to point out "Did God really say ... ?" is the beginning of every sin.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:17:14 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.


Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:19:39 PM
Why do you care? Why should anyone care?
Presumably the people of the Southeastern Synod care since he is their bishop. Someday the people of the ELCA will care if he’s elected presiding bishop. Do you care about the personal and private morality of those who are our leaders?


Personally this new ELCA bishop doesn’t really effect me here in Michigan and in a different denomination that much. Except that we all share the name Lutheran and we’re told that we should be, if only we weren’t so persnickety and old fashioned, in some sort of fellowship. Doesn’t the ELCA claim to be in fellowship with all churches that confess the Augsburg Confession? Of course, in the evolving ethos of the ELCA perhaps adherence to positions 1 or 2 of HSGT is discouraged and fellowship with a body of adherents of positions 1 or 2 ot so important or desirable unless they see the error of their ways.


Yes, we claim to be in fellowship with you. You, even with a position 1 or 2 on homosexual relationships, would be welcome to worship and commune in our congregations - or synod and churchwide assemblies if you wished to attend their wonderful worship services.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:34:05 PM
Pastor Charlton writes:
Right now, the fact that he is married to his same sex partner makes him an old fuddy-duddy in the ELCA in which so many are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory.
I ask:
Can you give me some examples of the “many” who are now rejecting marriage in favor of polyamory? Like names and places?

Nadia Bolz-Weber, LSTC, Naked and Unashamed,


Maybe. She is now divorced. So, there's one possible example.


Quote
Clint Schnekloth and the ELCA Facebook Group,


I've been part of his groups since they started. There no indication that he is in a polyamorous relationship or that he supports them. I don't consider him an example.


Quote
ELCA National Youth Gathering,


Who at the national youth gathering talked about being in a polyamorous relationship?


Quote
Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries,


The link you provided didn't go anywhere.


Quote
the ELCA Church Council,


Please cite decisions that support polyamory relationships.


You've listed one possible example of an ELCA person who is in polyamorous relationships and supports them. You have to do much better.


Having forums about sexual relationships at a Lutheran college doesn't mean that they are involved in or promoting polyamory.


Encouraging teenagers to be more open in talking about sex and sexual relationships is not necessarily supporting polyamory. To admit that people will fall in love with many different people; or that there are different types of love: the commitment types that looks for a life-long partner; the "crush" type that falls in lust with another person for a short time; the "philos" type that exists between siblings and close friends.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:35:35 PM
And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.
If by 'good faith' you mean pushing the LBGTQ et al in everything from youth gatherings, to Living Lutheran, to the most recent draft social statement, adding to that full acceptance of LBGTQ et al goals with no discussion, no resolutions and no vote at any Churchwide assembly.  Of course, that trajectory should have been clear in 2010 when we were told that no resolution to reconsider the 2009 decision would be allowed. If that is what you mean by 'good faith' I would not like to see what it would be like if the ELCA had acted duplicitously.


Many of us see such acts as pushing Jesus' command to love one another as he loved us.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:42:23 PM
Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?


Given the current assault on traditional marriage and family these days, No, it can not just be assumed.  But you know that already, or you are wearing blinders, or galactically ignorant, or various combinations of the three.


The assault on marriage began long before this issue. About half of marriages ended in divorces long before 2009. Consider our current president's faithfulness in marriage - or the affairs of some previous presidents.


I believe that our 2009 statement with an emphasis on monogamous and life-long were words supporting the traditional understanding of marriage.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 02:44:04 PM
When it came to things revealed in God's Word, what God said was what we were supposed to do.

How did that understanding get so twisted and perverted?

In theory, nothing changed.  What changed was what some people said was actually revealed in God's Word.    :(

Things began to get perverted when the twisted serpent asked the question "Did God really say.....?

Yup.  The pastor who taught my confirmation class was apt to point out "Did God really say ... ?" is the beginning of every sin.


On the other side is the Pharisaical unchangeable belief: "This is what God really said" (and what Jesus said and did was blasphemous to what God really said).
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 03:17:59 PM
Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

Are you speaking about the dinner table for a meal, or the Lord's Table for Holy Communion? What God revealed to Paul, who wrote it down in the Epistles, is clear. We aren't supposed to share Holy Communion with those who worship Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Mithras, or any other god spelled with a lowercase "g". Only those with whom we share a common confession, ie. only all Baptized Christians, are supposed to share the Lord's table.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 03:20:02 PM
And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.
If by 'good faith' you mean pushing the LBGTQ et al in everything from youth gatherings, to Living Lutheran, to the most recent draft social statement, adding to that full acceptance of LBGTQ et al goals with no discussion, no resolutions and no vote at any Churchwide assembly.  Of course, that trajectory should have been clear in 2010 when we were told that no resolution to reconsider the 2009 decision would be allowed. If that is what you mean by 'good faith' I would not like to see what it would be like if the ELCA had acted duplicitously.


Many of us see such acts as pushing Jesus' command to love one another as he loved us.

And back in the 1960's, many of us interpreted "love one another" with meaning "engage in eros with one another, as often and with as many partners, as possible."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 03:23:53 PM
On the other side is the Pharisaical unchangeable belief: "This is what God really said" (and what Jesus said and did was blasphemous to what God really said).

The difference is that what the Pharisees said was wrong. One party's error doesn't prove someone else's truth is also an error.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 04, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
And the real church, Jesus, and gospel and sacraments are still here.

Are they though? Or are the words still here but their meanings redefined so as to accommodate our own agenda?


The “agenda” of forgiving sins in Jesus’ through and sacrament is still present.

Are you sure? At my church we have a "welcoming table" where all are invited. You would think we were talking about refreshments during the coffee hour.


Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.   1 Corinthians 11:23-32
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 04:03:40 PM
Maybe. She is now divorced. So, there's one possible example.

Has dishonesty become a badge of honor among ELCA loyalists?  You know she just published a book advocating polyamory.  You know that she has publicly talked about her extra-marital sexual relationship with her current partner.  You also know she is a signatory of Naked and Unashamed.  Finally, you know that she is celebrated throughout the ELCA.

You know that Clint Schnekloth was one of the leaders of the group that demanded Trustworthy Servants be rejected for many reasons, including its expectation that sexual relations take place in marriage. 

You know I did not post a link to ELM, but you also know from the link that another person posted that ELM now celebrates polyamorous relationships.

You know that the ELCA Church Council was so cowed by ELM and the ELCA Facebook mob that they couldn't even affirm marriage as a standard for ministers.

You know all of these things but pretend that you do not.  If Bishop Strickland upholds marriage as the single standard for heterosexual and homosexual pastors, and I have no reason to believe he won't, he will be considered one of the oppressors.  Hopefully he will have more courage than PB Eaton and the Church Council and will publicly reaffirm this standard in the face of those who now reject it. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 04, 2019, 04:06:03 PM

Quote
Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries,


The link you provided didn't go anywhere.

https://www.elm.org/2018/11/29/gods-infinite-love-a-reflection-on-being-poly-from-a-proclaim-member/ (https://www.elm.org/2018/11/29/gods-infinite-love-a-reflection-on-being-poly-from-a-proclaim-member/)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 04, 2019, 04:16:50 PM
RESOLVED, that this church, because of its commitment to respect the bound consciences of all, declare its intent to allow structured flexibility in decision-making regarding the approving or disapproving in candidacy and the extending or not extending of a call to rostered service of a person who is otherwise qualified and who is living or contemplates living in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship; and be it further [/color]

You know that the Church Council nixed structured flexibility before CWA 2009 had even begun.  There is no structured flexibility in the candidacy process.  There is no structured flexibility at the synodical or churchwide level.  The only thing that remained of "structured flexibility" after the policy resolutions were passed was that a congregation can choose to call or not call a pastor. 

Advocates of HSGT pretended that this was a magnanimous gesture, but it wasn't.  It was simply the assertion of a policy that had been in existence since the formation of the ELCA.  It has always been the case that a congregation cannot be forced to call someone they don't want to call. 

Advocates of HSGT touted structured flexibility even while knowing that the Church Council had rejected structured flexibility.  Another instance of brazen dishonesty. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 04, 2019, 05:07:01 PM
Advocates of HSGT pretended that this was a magnanimous gesture, but it wasn't.  It was simply the assertion of a policy that had been in existence since the formation of the ELCA.  It has always been the case that a congregation cannot be forced to call someone they don't want to call. 

"Forced"? No, they cannot be forced. "Placed under serious pressure to either accept the candidate the Bishop's office sends for consideration or 'make do' with an unending stream of interims"? That can happen. It doesn't always happen. As I understand it, that is a rare occurrence. But "rare" isn't the same as "never". To be forthright about this, I've only heard of this from former ELCA Lutherans who mentioned that as one of their reasons for transferring to a different part of the Great Big Lutheran Church.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 04, 2019, 05:35:26 PM
Hundreds, maybe thousands of pastoral transitions in any given year, but of course if on “rare” occasions a candidate seems to be supposedly “forced”  on a congregation, we better be sure to mention that as another reason why the ELCA is so terrible.
Here’s another hard truth that people do not like to hear. Sometimes the synod knows better than the congregation itself what kind of Pastor ought to be called.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 04, 2019, 06:02:49 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Regina Hassanally elected bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Minnesota Synod

CHICAGO (June 4, 2019) – The Rev. Regina M. Hassanally, Goodhue, Minn., was elected June 1 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Southeastern Minnesota Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 31 – June 1 at the Mayo Civic Center in Rochester, Minn.

Hassanally was elected on the fifth ballot, with 237 votes. The Rev. Emily Carson, the synod’s director of communications, received 206.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of St. Luke Lutheran Church in Goodhue since 2012, and as director of shared ministry at St. John’s Lutheran Church in Northfield, Minn., from 2008 to 2012.

Hassanally received her Bachelor of Arts in biology–health professions from Northwestern College in Orange City, Iowa, in 2005, and her Master of Divinity degree from Palmer Theological Seminary in Wynnewood, Pa., in 2008. Her Lutheran year was spent at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn., in 2011. Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Hassanally will be installed Sept. 14 at St. John Lutheran Church in Owatonna, Minn.

The Rev. Steven H. Delzer has served as bishop since 2013 and will retire Aug. 31.


Information about the Southeastern Minnesota Synod is available at semnsynod.org/.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: TERJr on June 04, 2019, 07:06:45 PM
Hundreds, maybe thousands of pastoral transitions in any given year, but of course if on “rare” occasions a candidate seems to be supposedly “forced”  on a congregation, we better be sure to mention that as another reason why the ELCA is so terrible.
Here’s another hard truth that people do not like to hear. Sometimes the synod knows better than the congregation itself what kind of Pastor ought to be called.

That has been true and in many cases may still be true but demonstrated duplicity erodes trust and rebuilding trust takes a very long time and presumes no further perceived betrayal.
A further and ironic complicating factor is that the behavior of many who loudly decry “the patriarchy” is paternalistic.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 04, 2019, 07:08:22 PM
You are correct.  it began long before 2009.  2009 was just the (then) culmination of it.  And many of us see "life long" and "Monogamous" in your context as exactly the sort of assault I referred to earlier. 

Just a brief comment, before I move on to the more important events of the day.
Does the “traditional” view of marriage needs “support”? Or could it just be assumed that  the vast majority of marriages in our congregation would be heterosexual?


Given the current assault on traditional marriage and family these days, No, it can not just be assumed.  But you know that already, or you are wearing blinders, or galactically ignorant, or various combinations of the three.


The assault on marriage began long before this issue. About half of marriages ended in divorces long before 2009. Consider our current president's faithfulness in marriage - or the affairs of some previous presidents.


I believe that our 2009 statement with an emphasis on monogamous and life-long were words supporting the traditional understanding of marriage.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 07:31:14 PM
Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

Are you speaking about the dinner table for a meal, or the Lord's Table for Holy Communion? What God revealed to Paul, who wrote it down in the Epistles, is clear. We aren't supposed to share Holy Communion with those who worship Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Mithras, or any other god spelled with a lowercase "g". Only those with whom we share a common confession, ie. only all Baptized Christians, are supposed to share the Lord's table.


In those early days there wasn't much difference. Holy Communion was part of a potluck meal of the church family. There was also a point where the unbaptized were dismissed from the worship and couldn't participate in the meal section.


At the same time, Paul also argued that those other gods don't exist, so those whose conscience is clear about that can go to pagan temples and eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 07:39:28 PM
And no, Pastor Fienen, it is not true that "those who stayed after CWA 2009 believing the assurances that there was room in the ELCA for those who held all four positions were what naive, simply being given time to change their conscience bound beliefs?" That is one of your gotcha scenarios. And it assumes chicanery and duplicity on the part of our churchwide assemblies and leaders. Not good.
I believe that we acted in good faith to try to accommodate those of the "minority" opinion. I'm not sure we did it well but those 700 congregations that left didn't even give us a good chance to try.
A decade has passed. Much has changed. We may be at a new turning point. And people may have to make complicated decisions.
If by 'good faith' you mean pushing the LBGTQ et al in everything from youth gatherings, to Living Lutheran, to the most recent draft social statement, adding to that full acceptance of LBGTQ et al goals with no discussion, no resolutions and no vote at any Churchwide assembly.  Of course, that trajectory should have been clear in 2010 when we were told that no resolution to reconsider the 2009 decision would be allowed. If that is what you mean by 'good faith' I would not like to see what it would be like if the ELCA had acted duplicitously.


Many of us see such acts as pushing Jesus' command to love one another as he loved us.

And back in the 1960's, many of us interpreted "love one another" with meaning "engage in eros with one another, as often and with as many partners, as possible."


And back in the 1960's, many of us were part of the Jesus movement. We interpreted "love one another" to mean "as Jesus loved us." The 60's were the beginning of the charismatic movement in the Episcopal church. Maranatha Music out of Costa Mesa, CA, introduced a new type of music into Christianity.


Perhaps the licentious behaviors of some back then helped strengthen the believers to more boldly confess and live their faith in opposition to what was happening around us.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 04, 2019, 08:02:19 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Regina Hassanally elected bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Minnesota Synod

CHICAGO (June 4, 2019) – The Rev. Regina M. Hassanally, Goodhue, Minn., was elected June 1 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Southeastern Minnesota Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 31 – June 1 at the Mayo Civic Center in Rochester, Minn.

Hassanally was elected on the fifth ballot, with 237 votes. The Rev. Emily Carson, the synod’s director of communications, received 206.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of St. Luke Lutheran Church in Goodhue since 2012, and as director of shared ministry at St. John’s Lutheran Church in Northfield, Minn., from 2008 to 2012.

Hassanally received her Bachelor of Arts in biology–health professions from Northwestern College in Orange City, Iowa, in 2005, and her Master of Divinity degree from Palmer Theological Seminary in Wynnewood, Pa., in 2008. Her Lutheran year was spent at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn., in 2011. Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Hassanally will be installed Sept. 14 at St. John Lutheran Church in Owatonna, Minn.

The Rev. Steven H. Delzer has served as bishop since 2013 and will retire Aug. 31.


Information about the Southeastern Minnesota Synod is available at semnsynod.org/.

So, this bishop-elect has been a pastor for like 10 years?  Or is it less (not sure what a director of shared ministry is/does)?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 04, 2019, 08:03:59 PM
Maybe. She is now divorced. So, there's one possible example.

Has dishonesty become a badge of honor among ELCA loyalists?  You know she just published a book advocating polyamory.  You know that she has publicly talked about her extra-marital sexual relationship with her current partner.  You also know she is a signatory of Naked and Unashamed.  Finally, you know that she is celebrated throughout the ELCA.


I cannot comment on a book that I haven't read. The reviews I've read did not mention polyamory; but that doesn't mean it's not in the book. As I recall, the relationship she had with her present partner was before she was married.

Quote
You know that Clint Schnekloth was one of the leaders of the group that demanded Trustworthy Servants be rejected for many reasons, including its expectation that sexual relations take place in marriage. 

I also know that he does not represent the ELCA. I know that some of the opposition to the document was not because of what was in it, but because of the process used to create it. Those most affected by it were not consulted as they were expected to be.

Quote
You know that the ELCA Church Council was so cowed by ELM and the ELCA Facebook mob that they couldn't even affirm marriage as a standard for ministers.

Please show me where they have done this. As I recall reading the guidelines for candidacy committees not long after 2009, same-sex marriages was seen as the norm for making the relationship publicly accountable in those states where it was legal. In states where there were other legal same-sex relationships, they were expected of the candidates.

Quote
You know all of these things but pretend that you do not.  If Bishop Strickland upholds marriage as the single standard for heterosexual and homosexual pastors, and I have no reason to believe he won't, he will be considered one of the oppressors.  Hopefully he will have more courage than PB Eaton and the Church Council and will publicly reaffirm this standard in the face of those who now reject it.


For now, we are still under the guidance of the 2010 Vision and Expectations. The draft for Trustworthy Servants was not adopted, but sent back to the committee be reworked. I don't know what it will say.


What I do know is that our children and grandchildren are likely to engage in sexual relationships outside of marriage. It is the norm of the following generations. One couple, both grew up active in Lutheran congregations; both graduated from a Lutheran college, told me that if you don't sleep with someone before you're married, how can you know that you want to marry them? Nearly all of the marriages I've done were with couples who were already living together.


That is the mindset of many of the folks who will be in our churches - if we get any of that generation. That's the mindset of many who will become candidates for ordination - if we get any of them.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 04, 2019, 08:48:20 PM
Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

Are you speaking about the dinner table for a meal, or the Lord's Table for Holy Communion? What God revealed to Paul, who wrote it down in the Epistles, is clear. We aren't supposed to share Holy Communion with those who worship Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Mithras, or any other god spelled with a lowercase "g". Only those with whom we share a common confession, ie. only all Baptized Christians, are supposed to share the Lord's table.


In those early days there wasn't much difference. Holy Communion was part of a potluck meal of the church family. There was also a point where the unbaptized were dismissed from the worship and couldn't participate in the meal section.


At the same time, Paul also argued that those other gods don't exist, so those whose conscience is clear about that can go to pagan temples and eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols.
Paul’s discussion in 1 Corinthians is more nuanced than you suggest. Temples in Corinth were complexes with several areas. There were priestly areas and also ritual areas where only initiates and those being initiated into the temple mysteries would gather for rituals which may include meals. But there were also more public areas where anyone could that would only be loosely connected to temple worship and leftovers from offerings could be sold or served for general consumption. Paul warned against becoming involved in temple worship and ritual even though the public areas could be OK. Under no circumstances were the Corinthian Christians to be involved in nonChriatian worship rituals.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 05, 2019, 12:13:43 PM
Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

Are you speaking about the dinner table for a meal, or the Lord's Table for Holy Communion? What God revealed to Paul, who wrote it down in the Epistles, is clear. We aren't supposed to share Holy Communion with those who worship Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Mithras, or any other god spelled with a lowercase "g". Only those with whom we share a common confession, ie. only all Baptized Christians, are supposed to share the Lord's table.


In those early days there wasn't much difference. Holy Communion was part of a potluck meal of the church family. There was also a point where the unbaptized were dismissed from the worship and couldn't participate in the meal section.


At the same time, Paul also argued that those other gods don't exist, so those whose conscience is clear about that can go to pagan temples and eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols.
Paul’s discussion in 1 Corinthians is more nuanced than you suggest. Temples in Corinth were complexes with several areas. There were priestly areas and also ritual areas where only initiates and those being initiated into the temple mysteries would gather for rituals which may include meals. But there were also more public areas where anyone could that would only be loosely connected to temple worship and leftovers from offerings could be sold or served for general consumption. Paul warned against becoming involved in temple worship and ritual even though the public areas could be OK. Under no circumstances were the Corinthian Christians to be involved in nonChriatian worship rituals.


I agree. The issue is more nuanced as you indicate.


By an extension: what does it indicate when Lutherans refuses to be involved in the Christian sacrament of Holy Communion? Are they subtly indicating that they consider it a nonChristian worship ritual?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Keith Falk on June 05, 2019, 03:19:08 PM
Yes, Jesus invites all. I can't recall any time Jesus did not welcome people to eat with him: the 5000 and 4000; tax collectors and sinners. He even ate with Pharisees and disbelieving disciples. What makes you think that Jesus would exclude people from his table?

Are you speaking about the dinner table for a meal, or the Lord's Table for Holy Communion? What God revealed to Paul, who wrote it down in the Epistles, is clear. We aren't supposed to share Holy Communion with those who worship Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, Mithras, or any other god spelled with a lowercase "g". Only those with whom we share a common confession, ie. only all Baptized Christians, are supposed to share the Lord's table.


In those early days there wasn't much difference. Holy Communion was part of a potluck meal of the church family. There was also a point where the unbaptized were dismissed from the worship and couldn't participate in the meal section.


At the same time, Paul also argued that those other gods don't exist, so those whose conscience is clear about that can go to pagan temples and eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols.
Paul’s discussion in 1 Corinthians is more nuanced than you suggest. Temples in Corinth were complexes with several areas. There were priestly areas and also ritual areas where only initiates and those being initiated into the temple mysteries would gather for rituals which may include meals. But there were also more public areas where anyone could that would only be loosely connected to temple worship and leftovers from offerings could be sold or served for general consumption. Paul warned against becoming involved in temple worship and ritual even though the public areas could be OK. Under no circumstances were the Corinthian Christians to be involved in nonChriatian worship rituals.


I agree. The issue is more nuanced as you indicate.


By an extension: what does it indicate when Lutherans refuses to be involved in the Christian sacrament of Holy Communion? Are they subtly indicating that they consider it a nonChristian worship ritual?


No.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 05, 2019, 09:55:38 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Regina Hassanally elected bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Minnesota Synod

CHICAGO (June 4, 2019) – The Rev. Regina M. Hassanally, Goodhue, Minn., was elected June 1 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Southeastern Minnesota Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 31 – June 1 at the Mayo Civic Center in Rochester, Minn.

Hassanally was elected on the fifth ballot, with 237 votes. The Rev. Emily Carson, the synod’s director of communications, received 206.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of St. Luke Lutheran Church in Goodhue since 2012, and as director of shared ministry at St. John’s Lutheran Church in Northfield, Minn., from 2008 to 2012.

Hassanally received her Bachelor of Arts in biology–health professions from Northwestern College in Orange City, Iowa, in 2005, and her Master of Divinity degree from Palmer Theological Seminary in Wynnewood, Pa., in 2008. Her Lutheran year was spent at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn., in 2011. Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Hassanally will be installed Sept. 14 at St. John Lutheran Church in Owatonna, Minn.

The Rev. Steven H. Delzer has served as bishop since 2013 and will retire Aug. 31.


Information about the Southeastern Minnesota Synod is available at semnsynod.org/.

So, this bishop-elect has been a pastor for like 10 years?  Or is it less (not sure what a director of shared ministry is/does)?

I have to admit, I'd never heard of Palmer Theological Seminary. I looked it up. Here's what their website says:

We believe that Jesus Christ commanded us to be baptized and to partake of the Supper in his name. We believe that baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, signifying redemption through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ together with the believer’s death to sin and resurrection to newness of life. We believe that the Lord’s Supper is a commemoration of the Lord’s death until he returns.

There was a time when candidacy committees were very skeptical of candidates whose MDiv was from any non-Lutheran seminary, but they would make occasional exceptions for candidates from Yale or Princeton or Harvard (and some others). But a nearly unknown Baptist school? Could a "Luther year" possibly correct the deficits in such a student's theological education? And then to elect her bishop after fewer than a dozen years in ministry? Astonishing.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 05, 2019, 11:10:55 PM
If the ELCA is truly facing a crisis, I believe that it is a crisis of leadership. There is surely a doctoral thesis in church history that could be written on how ELCA synodical bishops are elected, their education (or lack of it), their pastoral experience (or lack of it), and their writings, along with how they handled their synods.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 05, 2019, 11:53:06 PM
Could a "Luther year" possibly correct the deficits in such a student's theological education?

It's hard to say. Frankly, it's surprising how many non-Lutheran faculty you find at our Lutheran seminaries.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 06, 2019, 12:38:50 AM
Palmer Theological Seminary is the former Eastern Baptist Seminary, home of the American Baptist professor of sociology, author, and speaker, Tony Campolo.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 06, 2019, 01:12:45 AM
More from ELCA News:

Quote
Laurie Jungling elected bishop of the ELCA Montana Synod

6/5/2019 10:50:00 AM

​CHICAGO – The Rev. Laurie A. Jungling, Butte, Mont., was elected June 1 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Montana Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held May 31 – June 2 at the Heritage Inn in Great Falls, Mont.

Jungling was elected on the fifth ballot, with 143 votes. The Rev. Jason Asselstine, associate to the synod bishop, received 138.

The bishop-elect has served as interim pastor of Gold Hill Lutheran Church in Butte since 2018. As intentional interim pastor for the Montana Synod from 2016 to 2019, Jungling served at Hope Lutheran Church in Powell, Wyo.; St. Paul Lutheran Church in Cut Bank, Mont.; and Redeemer Lutheran Church in Great Falls. After serving as pastor of Buffalo (S.D.) Lutheran Parish from 1996-1999, she was professor of religion and ethics at Augustana University in Sioux Falls, S.D., from 2008-2016. Augustana is one of the ELCA's 26 colleges and universities.

Jungling received a Bachelor of Science degree from Montana State University in Bozeman in 1989. She received a Master of Divinity degree in 1996 and a Master of Theology degree in 2001 from Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minn. The bishop-elect received a doctorate degree from Graduate Theological Union at Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary of California Lutheran University in Berkeley, Calif., in 2007. Luther and Pacific are two of seven ELCA seminaries. California Lutheran University is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities.

Jungling will be installed Sept. 21 at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Jessica R. Crist has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Montana Synod is available at montanasynod.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7981
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 06, 2019, 01:38:59 AM
Could a "Luther year" possibly correct the deficits in such a student's theological education?

It's hard to say. Frankly, it's surprising how many non-Lutheran faculty you find at our Lutheran seminaries.


Even those who are Lutheran often get their Ph.D. (or equivalent) at non-Lutheran schools. Some of the graduate degrees of professors I had came from Claremont (Methodist), Princeton (Presbyterian), Aquinas (Roman Catholic). We also had some who got their doctorates in Germany, a couple who had spent years on the mission field in Africa. This wide variety of training and experiences offered us a much broader education than having professors all coming from the same graduate school.

In an entirely different subject, when a nephew went to get his Ph.D. he was advised not to seek it at the same school as his B.S. & M.S. He should have different professors, see the subject from other points of view. Then when he went for his post-doc fellowship, again he was advised to seek it at another university to experience other professors, to try and get the broadest range of teachers possible in his field.


Why shouldn't a broad range of Christian education be good?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 06, 2019, 07:42:14 AM
There is a big difference between formal education and spiritual formation. One the big advantages of residential seminaries is the chance to combine the two. But if the teachers don’t believe and live the faith in a Lutheran community, that chance is lost and you’re back to just having a graduate school, most of which can be done online.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 06, 2019, 08:00:58 AM
Peter:
...you’re back to just having a graduate school, most of which can be done online.
Me:
Without the daily personal in-The-classroom exchange between students and professors? What a dumb idea!
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 06, 2019, 10:02:35 AM
Why shouldn't a broad range of Christian education be good?

Broad is good as long as a Lutheran student eventually gets to study Lutheran theology. There is a Methodist seminary not far from where I live. On occasion a Lutheran graduate from there will preach at the church of which I am a member. Sometime it's alarming how much Methodist theology gets thrown in with a muddled understanding of Lutheran theology. I would trust that our esteemed and discerning moderator, Pr. Johnson, as a former Methodist and now learned Lutheran would navigate the Lutheran/Methodist issues brilliantly, but this is clearly not case with the graduates of this seminary.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Coach-Rev on June 06, 2019, 10:02:55 AM
Austin, stop prooftexting others' quotes.  If you'd bothered to actually quote the entire thing, or even read it, Pr. Speckhard's statement takes on a whole different meaning, and actually parallels what you said. 

There is a big difference between formal education and spiritual formation. One the big advantages of residential seminaries is the chance to combine the two. But if the teachers don’t believe and live the faith in a Lutheran community, that chance is lost and you’re back to just having a graduate school, most of which can be done online.

Peter:
...you’re back to just having a graduate school, most of which can be done online.
Me:
Without the daily personal in-The-classroom exchange between students and professors? What a dumb idea!

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 06, 2019, 11:02:15 AM
There is a big difference between formal education and spiritual formation. One the big advantages of residential seminaries is the chance to combine the two. But if the teachers don’t believe and live the faith in a Lutheran community, that chance is lost and you’re back to just having a graduate school, most of which can be done online.


A large part of "living the faith" is having different parts of the body coming together as one. A gathering of like-minded individuals is a social club, not a church.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 06, 2019, 11:04:13 AM
Why shouldn't a broad range of Christian education be good?

Broad is good as long as a Lutheran student eventually gets to study Lutheran theology. There is a Methodist seminary not far from where I live. On occasion a Lutheran graduate from there will preach at the church of which I am a member. Sometime it's alarming how much Methodist theology gets thrown in with a muddled understanding of Lutheran theology. I would trust that our esteemed and discerning moderator, Pr. Johnson, as a former Methodist and now learned Lutheran would navigate the Lutheran/Methodist issues brilliantly, but this is clearly not case with the graduates of this seminary.


The ELCA, LCMS, WELS can't even agree on Lutheran theology.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 06, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
Whether the "graduate school" is for theologians, botanists, psychologists, beekeepers or brain surgeons, I do not see how one can learn, question, be challenged in one's mind or grasp the dynamics of the theological, botanical, psychological, apiarian or neurological worlds and disciplines without long-term, constant, daily interaction with others in those fields, especially with the others who know more than you do.
Hence my skepticism about "distance learning," except for certain things and in certain circumstances.
That OK with you, Pastor Kimball?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Pastor Ken Kimball on June 06, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Whether the "graduate school" is for theologians, botanists, psychologists, beekeepers or brain surgeons, I do not see how one can learn, question, be challenged in one's mind or grasp the dynamics of the theological, botanical, psychological, apiarian or neurological worlds and disciplines without long-term, constant, daily interaction with others in those fields, especially with the others who know more than you do.
Hence my skepticism about "distance learning," except for certain things and in certain circumstances.
That OK with you, Pastor Kimball?
I understand you are usually in a situation of disagreement and back and forths with a number of different posters across a variety of threads, so I also understand that occasionally you lose track of with whom you are having a discussion/disagreement.  I would just point out that I am not in opposition to you on this particular topic.  And I would add that I agree with you on the value of in-person learning and give and take in close physical proximity and that something is lost in distance learning.  And that I am in agreement with you and Pastor Speckhard on the value and importance of seminarians learning within community and from those wiser and more learned than they are (with Pr. Speckhard's caveat about the professors actually being believers). Seminary education needs to be more than just the learning of particular facts (not less than facts but more than facts). 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dadoo on June 07, 2019, 10:17:26 PM
A quick word from the Southern Ohio Synod, ELCA: This morning the assembly reelected Suzanne Dillahunt on 1st ballot with 87% of the votes going her way; the highest amount of votes for anyone else was 4 (yes, four).

The assembly had no idea how to act after that outcome since in 30 years we never had a bishop's election that did not go to 5 ballots.

I am not sure what is in the air, Pastor Tibbetts, but that is how it went in Springfield, Ohio, June 7th, 2019
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 07, 2019, 11:18:22 PM
The New Jersey Synod reelected It’s bishop on the first ballot by a huge majority.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 07, 2019, 11:23:51 PM
The New Jersey Synod reelected It’s bishop on the first ballot by a huge majority.

Such elections had been the pattern in the Central Penn Synod (LCA)/Lower Susquehanna Synod ELCA until 2007.

And there was a sense of an "indelible charism" of the episcopacy:  The sitting Bishop always recognized Pr. Howard J. McCarney from the dais as "Bishop McCarney".
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 08, 2019, 08:16:44 AM
Sometimes, on their retirement, bishops are given the honorific “bishop emeritus,” which gives them the title.
But, as was shown in our discussions about the ministry, many in the ELCA still have a problem with the idea of a bishop for life, or the idea of the bishop as anything but a pastor with a different call.
Some of us continue to refer to bishops who no longer serve in that capacity as “bishop.”
But in our ELCA polity, they are not.
 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 08, 2019, 09:16:56 AM
Sometimes, on their retirement, bishops are given the honorific “bishop emeritus,” which gives them the title.

That title was bestowed on Bishop Guy S. Edmiston, Jr., upon his retirement.

To the best of my knowledge that was not done for Bishop McCarney because his tenure was during the final days of the LCA.

FWIW, Lower Susquehanna gained only one ALC congregation through the merger.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 08, 2019, 09:41:37 AM
The following resolution was defeated by over 2/3 by the Florida-Bahamas Synod Assembly.  It was the third resolve that was the problem, although one speaker objected to the word creature and to the notion that we become children of God in Baptism, rather than at birth.


Whereas the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has a Social Statement on Abortion, adopted at the second biennial Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, meeting in Orlando, Florida, August 28-September 4, 1991.

Whereas the Social Statement on Abortion does not address the use of abortion for the purposes of limiting or eliminating genetic conditions such as Down’s Syndrome.

Whereas the Social Statement on Genetics, Faith and Responsibility, adopted at the twelfth biennial Churchwide Assembly on August 18, 2011, at Orlando, Florida, “rejects beliefs, goals and policies” that “use genetic information for discrimination in employment, health care or insurance coverage”

Whereas news reports indicate that several countries have adopted policies and practices that encourage prenatal genetic testing for and the abortion of children who test positive for Down Syndrome

RESOLVED, that the Florida-Bahamas Synod Assembly memorialize the 2019 Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to . . .

Affirm that people with Down Syndrome are creatures of God who bring gifts and blessings to their families, congregations, the larger church and the world.

Affirm that through Holy Baptism people with Down Syndrome become children of God and full members of the Body of Christ.

Reject the use of genetic testing and abortion for the purpose of limiting or eliminating Down Syndrome births.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Keith Falk on June 08, 2019, 10:08:13 AM
The following resolution was defeated by over 2/3 by the Florida-Bahamas Synod Assembly.  It was the third resolve that was the problem, although one speaker objected to the word creature and to the notion that we become children of God in Baptism, rather than at birth.


Whereas the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has a Social Statement on Abortion, adopted at the second biennial Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, meeting in Orlando, Florida, August 28-September 4, 1991.

Whereas the Social Statement on Abortion does not address the use of abortion for the purposes of limiting or eliminating genetic conditions such as Down’s Syndrome.

Whereas the Social Statement on Genetics, Faith and Responsibility, adopted at the twelfth biennial Churchwide Assembly on August 18, 2011, at Orlando, Florida, “rejects beliefs, goals and policies” that “use genetic information for discrimination in employment, health care or insurance coverage”

Whereas news reports indicate that several countries have adopted policies and practices that encourage prenatal genetic testing for and the abortion of children who test positive for Down Syndrome

RESOLVED, that the Florida-Bahamas Synod Assembly memorialize the 2019 Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to . . .

Affirm that people with Down Syndrome are creatures of God who bring gifts and blessings to their families, congregations, the larger church and the world.

Affirm that through Holy Baptism people with Down Syndrome become children of God and full members of the Body of Christ.

Reject the use of genetic testing and abortion for the purpose of limiting or eliminating Down Syndrome births.


That's appalling, though, I suppose, unsurprising.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 08, 2019, 11:50:53 AM
Actually the choice of nouns differentiating pre and post Baptism is very Orthodox, and I use the upper case "O" deliberately.

In the Orthodox Church a child not yet Baptized is referred to in prayers as a "creature of God".

Only after Baptism is s/he Commemorated in the Great Entrance  and identified as the "servant of God" (m) or "handmaiden of God" (f).
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 08, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
My guess is the real, unspoken objection had nothing to do with the verbiage and everything to do with not wanting risk making anyone feel guilty for having aborted a baby with Down syndrom and not wanting to appear disloyal to progressivism. Plus, once you pass something like that, you’ve validated the logic that leads to all kinds of anti-abortion places. After all, regular babies, even unwanted ones, are also creatures/children of God and blessings to lots of people.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 08, 2019, 03:19:36 PM
My guess is the real, unspoken objection had nothing to do with the verbiage and everything to do with not wanting risk making anyone feel guilty for having aborted a baby with Down syndrom and not wanting to appear disloyal to progressivism. Plus, once you pass something like that, you’ve validated the logic that leads to all kinds of anti-abortion places. After all, regular babies, even unwanted ones, are also creatures/children of God and blessings to lots of people.

Yep.  There's a patriarch behind every tree.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 08, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
The Lower Susquehanna Synod is reporting on its "Live at Synod Assembly" page that Bishop James Dunlop has been elected to a second term.  Pastor Steven Herr, Christ, Gettysburg, was the leading challenger.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 08, 2019, 04:50:22 PM
Peter writes:
My guess is...
I comment:
Your “guess”, Peter, is quite presumptuous and arrogant, since I’m guessing you don’t know anybody involved on any side of those particular decisions. But isn’t it easy to stereotype people who do certain things? Is it easy, especially if you have a hardline ideology, to wrap complex things up in tight little packages? Is it easy to decide from afar why people did something, especially it enables you to put them down because they are “progressives.”?
I have strenuously avoided trying to characterize hardline conservatives as certain types of people. I have avoided trying to characterize those who support the current president as redneck yahoos. I have avoided trying to characterize all Lutheran conservatives as little more than anti-intellectual Baptist fundamentalist, although I think that’s what some of them are.
But of course we all know that anything any progressive does is simply to protect any abortion at any time. Good grief.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 08, 2019, 05:08:54 PM
I have strenuously avoided trying to characterize hardline conservatives as certain types of people. I have avoided trying to characterize those who support the current president as redneck yahoos. I have avoided trying to characterize all Lutheran conservatives as little more than anti-intellectual Baptist fundamentalist, although I think that’s what some of them are.

I think you need to look up the words "strenuously" and "avoid," and contrast -- rather than compare -- them with the phrase "go out of my way to."

 >:(
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 08, 2019, 05:18:49 PM
The following resolution was defeated by over 2/3 by the Florida-Bahamas Synod Assembly.  It was the third resolve that was the problem, although one speaker objected to the word creature and to the notion that we become children of God in Baptism, rather than at birth.

This is ghastly.  Alas, I can too easily imagine what it feels like to among a Synod Assembly's minority after such a discussion and vote.

 :'(
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 08, 2019, 06:09:17 PM
Peter writes:
My guess is...
I comment:
Your “guess”, Peter, is quite presumptuous and arrogant, since I’m guessing you don’t know anybody involved on any side of those particular decisions. But isn’t it easy to stereotype people who do certain things? Is it easy, especially if you have a hardline ideology, to wrap complex things up in tight little packages? Is it easy to decide from afar why people did something, especially it enables you to put them down because they are “progressives.”?
I have strenuously avoided trying to characterize hardline conservatives as certain types of people. I have avoided trying to characterize those who support the current president as redneck yahoos. I have avoided trying to characterize all Lutheran conservatives as little more than anti-intellectual Baptist fundamentalist, although I think that’s what some of them are.
But of course we all know that anything any progressive does is simply to protect any abortion at any time. Good grief.

Peter has never met me in person, but he knows me from this forum.  I was the author of the resolution, which was presented in 2018, but ruled out of order because 2018 was not a business assembly.  I resubmitted the resolution at the request of my congregation.  I really didn't want to resubmit it, but I did.

You, Pastor Austin, provided part of the motivation for the resolution.  You often say that those of us who don't like the direction of the ELCA should put up or shut up.  "Write a resolution," you say.  So I did. 

I can tell you the motivation of the author:

The resolution arises in response to the reports that in Iceland and Denmark it is now considered the medical standard of care to do prenatal testing for genetic defects and, when Down Syndrome is identified, to abort.  The only Down Syndrome babies born are those not identified during prenatal testing. 

I knew a couple in my last congregation who had a Down Syndrome daughter.  When she was born in the early 60's, her parents were warned that they could not raise such a child.  The best thing, they were told, was to institutionalize her.  They refused, and raised her.  Over time they helped start the group home movement in Detroit against opposition from many.  Their daughter would visit, but always wanted to return to her home.  Their daughter was a person of kindness, dignity and grace.  It saddens me that in just 60 years, we have gone from saying a Down Syndrome person should be institutionalized to saying he/she should be aborted. 


That was my motivation.

Now I can't tell you why most people opposed the resolution, but several indicated that they thought my resolution was part of a ruse and that my real motivation was to control women's bodies.   Others opposed it because they thought it was unnecessary, since our social statements already cover the issue, or because they thought it was two politically divisive. 

But, just to be clear, I obeyed your command to put up or shut up. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Matt Hummel on June 08, 2019, 07:44:08 PM
David-
When two strangers show up suggesting it's time to leave the Synod & ELCA, you may want to listen. I grieve for your loss, and for the triumph of the culture of death within the ELCA. The fun will come when the "gay" gene is found. Will they find their voice then?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 08, 2019, 09:10:54 PM
So, Pastor Charlton, you did a good and right thing. I’m glad about that. But your synod did not approve of the effort the way you presented it. You can always work on gaining support and try again.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 08, 2019, 09:51:16 PM
So, Pastor Charlton, you did a good and right thing. I’m glad about that. But your synod did not approve of the effort the way you presented it. You can always work on gaining support and try again.
But of course, the whole point, as you know, is how obscene it is that a group professing the Christian faith could not agree to condemn the practice of aborting babies due to Down syndrome.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 08, 2019, 09:53:57 PM
That may be your point. I’m not speaking about that. I am commending Pastor Charlton for trying, and urging him to try again. These things can take time.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 08, 2019, 10:00:48 PM
So, Pastor Charlton, you did a good and right thing. I’m glad about that. But your synod did not approve of the effort the way you presented it. You can always work on gaining support and try again.
But of course, the whole point, as you know, is how obscene it is that a group professing the Christian faith could not agree to condemn the practice of aborting babies due to Down syndrome.

There are many, many excuses that a church body can use to justify making a terrible decision. Far too many possible excuses, truth be told. But of all the despicable excuses for failing to do what is right, blaming errors in following picayune rules has to be one of the worst. Imagine if there really was a judgement day when God went through His book of who did what, and someone had to stand before Him and answer for why he allowed hundreds or thousands of babies to be murdered in the womb. Can you imagine the reaction if the excuse for allowing the innocents to be murdered was, "We didn't approve of the way objections to the murders was presented to us."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 09, 2019, 02:47:17 AM
Sometimes, on their retirement, bishops are given the honorific “bishop emeritus,” which gives them the title.

That title was bestowed on Bishop Guy S. Edmiston, Jr., upon his retirement.



It's a ridiculous title, one borrowed from academia, which has no logic, purpose or utility in the church.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 09, 2019, 03:38:54 AM
One humorist suggested somewhere that "emeritus" came from two Latin words, one meaning "out," the other meaning "ought to be."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 09, 2019, 07:30:19 AM
Sometimes, on their retirement, bishops are given the honorific “bishop emeritus,” which gives them the title.

That title was bestowed on Bishop Guy S. Edmiston, Jr., upon his retirement.



It's a ridiculous title, one borrowed from academia, which has no logic, purpose or utility in the church.

Still, there are a surprising number of congregations in that Synod, from some of the largest to some of the very smallest, who have awarded that title to former Pastors who entered into retirement from that call.

In most cases such naming occurred long before the Synod took the parallel action with Bishop Edmiston; in short, the title, ridiculous or not, seems to have arisen bottom up.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 09, 2019, 04:10:37 PM
Sometimes, on their retirement, bishops are given the honorific “bishop emeritus,” which gives them the title.

That title was bestowed on Bishop Guy S. Edmiston, Jr., upon his retirement.


It's a ridiculous title, one borrowed from academia, which has no logic, purpose or utility in the church.

I agree.

What would be so wrong with letting a retired bishop keep the title of Bishop but without any of the ontological baggage? He (or she) could still assist when called upon for an occasional parish visit or ordination. If they have that charism, let them exercise it if they are still willing and able.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 09, 2019, 04:55:13 PM
What would be so wrong with letting a retired bishop keep the title of Bishop but without any of the ontological baggage? He (or she) could still assist when called upon for an occasional parish visit or ordination. If they have that charism, let them exercise it if they are still willing and able.

What's so wrong about letting an ex-bishop keep the title even if he no longer has the charism?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on June 09, 2019, 05:06:42 PM
concerning emeriti or emeritae some of the issue may be whether or not a pastor without a call is indeed a pastor... those who have a more limited view or practical view of ordination might favor the fact that a retired pastor is a retired layperson... a higher view of ordination might say other... and some may see the title as something by which a parish merely notes that their former pastor is still a pastor (at least to them or maybe more) or some pastor may see it as an affirmation of their continuing office which may or may not have interims, fill-in preaching and celebrating and other things local pastors might ask them to do in various parishes.  Recently our new Mission District paper work noted that deans may be pastors with calls or retired pastors... not included were retired lay people for this particular office.    Does someone know whether the term has always only until recently been used in academic circles or does it have a long history of ecclesial usage.  Wikipedia says, "Emeritus in its current usage, is an adjective used to designate a retired chairman , professor, pastor, bishop, pope, director, president, prime minister, rabbi, ..."   And there is nothing more current than Wikipedia, right. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 09, 2019, 05:23:43 PM
What would be so wrong with letting a retired bishop keep the title of Bishop but without any of the ontological baggage? He (or she) could still assist when called upon for an occasional parish visit or ordination. If they have that charism, let them exercise it if they are still willing and able.

What's so wrong about letting an ex-bishop keep the title even if he no longer has the charism?

Is that a rhetorical question? I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with allowing a bishop to keep their title.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 09, 2019, 05:28:00 PM
In the LCMS pastors when they retire can remain on the clergy roster indefinitely and can still perform pastoral acts such as preside at communion. They  may no longer hold a regular parish call, but neither do they become laymen. They can do substitute preaching and presiding (in many areas much in demand) serve vacancies, many serve as interim pastors, and they can be selected as circuit visitors (head pastor for a circuit).
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 09, 2019, 05:46:25 PM
In the LCMS pastors when they retire can remain on the clergy roster indefinitely and can still perform pastoral acts such as preside at communion. They  may no longer hold a regular parish call, but neither do they become laymen. They can do substitute preaching and presiding (in many areas much in demand) serve vacancies, many serve as interim pastors, and they can be selected as circuit visitors (head pastor for a circuit).

Makes sense. So you can see how the role of bishop could be exercised by a retired bishop, or district president.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 09, 2019, 06:05:05 PM
What would be so wrong with letting a retired bishop keep the title of Bishop but without any of the ontological baggage? He (or she) could still assist when called upon for an occasional parish visit or ordination. If they have that charism, let them exercise it if they are still willing and able.

What's so wrong about letting an ex-bishop keep the title even if he no longer has the charism?

Is that a rhetorical question? I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with allowing a bishop to keep their title.

Semi-rhetorical. There are some who would (correctly) see using the title "Bishop" as an honorific for an ex-Bishop. There are others who see using the word "Bishop" as "too Catholic", and that office should be called "President" or something else. Look at the disagreement on whether "pastor" and "minister" are synonyms or if "pastor" can only apply to someone with a call as pastor of a parish. I think it's much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:09:57 AM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:12:16 AM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Susan Candea elected bishop of the ELCA Central States Synod

CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. Susan Candea, Overland Park, Kan., was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Central States Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 6-8 at the Marriott Kansas City-Overland Park.

Candea was elected on the fifth ballot, with 223 votes. The Rev. David Whetter, pastor of Salem Lutheran Church in Lenexa, Kan., received 131 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as assistant to the synod bishop since 2013 and director for evangelical mission since 2016. She served as pastor of King of Glory Lutheran Church in Loveland, Colo., from 2006 to 2013, as pastor of Our Saviors Lutheran Church in Topeka, Kan., from 1989 to 2006, and co-pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church, Wakeeney, Kan., from 1983 to 1989.

Candea received a Bachelor of Arts from California Lutheran University in Thousand Oaks in 1979, and a Master of Divinity from Wartburg Theological Seminary in Dubuque, Iowa, in 1983. California Lutheran is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities and Wartburg is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

She will be installed Oct. 20 at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Roger R. Gustafson has served as bishop since 2013 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the Central States Synod is available at css-elca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7985

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:14:11 AM
More from ELCA News:

Quote
William Tesch elected bishop of the ELCA Northwestern Minnesota Synod

CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. William T. Tesch, Sioux Falls, S.D., was elected June 9 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Northwestern Minnesota Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-9 at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn.

Tesch was elected on the fifth ballot, with 265 votes. The Rev. Genelle Netland, pastor of Calvary Lutheran Church in Bemidji, Minn., received 161.

The bishop-elect has served as director for evangelical mission with the ELCA South Dakota Synod since 2009. He served as assistant to the synod bishop from 2007 to 2009, as pastor of Messiah New Hope Lutheran Church in Sioux Falls, S.D., from 1992 to 2007, and as pastor of St. Peter Lutheran Church in Madison, S.D. from 1989 to 1992.

Tesch received a Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Wisconsin in Madison in 1984 and a Master of Divinity from Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn., in 1989. Luther is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Tesch will be installed Sept. 8 in Moorhead.

The Rev. Lawrence R. Wohlrabe has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Northwestern Minnesota Synod is available at nwmnsynod.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7986[/size]
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:15:56 AM
More from ELCA News:

Quote
Tracie Bartholomew re-elected bishop of the ELCA New Jersey Synod

CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. Tracie L Bartholomew, Lawrenceville, N.J., was elected June 7 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the New Jersey Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 6-8 at the Hyatt Regency in New Brunswick, N.J.

Bartholomew was elected on the second ballot, with 298 votes. A total of 267 votes were needed for election. She was first elected in 2013.

Prior to becoming bishop, Bartholomew served as assistant to the synod bishop from 1998 to 2013. She served as pastor of Abiding Presence Lutheran Church in Ewing, N.J., from 1993 to 1998, as pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Lexington, Va., from 1991 to 1993, and as associate pastor of St. Mark Lutheran Church in Roanoke, Va., from 1989 to 1991.

Bartholomew earned a Bachelor of Science degree in political science from James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., in 1985, and a Master of Divinity degree from Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary, Columbia, S.C., in 1989. The seminary is one of seven ELCA seminaries.
 
Information about the ELCA New Jersey Synod is available at njsynod.org/.

 
https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7987
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:20:13 AM
And this from ELCA News:

Quote
James Dunlop re-elected bishop of the ELCA Lower Susquehanna Synod

CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. James S. Dunlop was elected June 8 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the Lower Susquehanna Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 6-8 at Messiah College in Grantham, Pa.

Dunlop was elected on the fourth ballot, with 319 votes. The Rev. Stephen R. Herr, pastor of Christ Evangelical Lutheran Church in Gettysburg, Pa., received 141.

Prior to becoming bishop, Dunlop served as pastor of St. John’s Evangelical Lutheran Church in Littlestown, Pa., from 2005 to 2013.         

The bishop-elect received a Bachelor of Arts degree from Gettysburg College in 1978 and a Master of Divinity degree from Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg (now United Lutheran Seminary) in 2005. Gettysburg College is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities. United is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Information about the ELCA Lower Susquehanna Synod is available at lss-elca.org.


 

https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7988
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:53:16 AM
ELCA News writes:

Quote
Richard Jaech re-elected bishop of the ELCA Southwestern Washington Synod
 
CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. Richard E. Jaech was elected June 7 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the Southwestern Washington Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Hilton Hotel in Vancouver, Wash.

Jaech was elected on the first ballot, with 170 votes. A total of 161 votes were needed for election.

Prior to becoming bishop, Jaech served as pastor of Beautiful Savior Lutheran Church in Vancouver, Wash., from 1987 to 2013. He served as pastor of St. Mary and St. Martha Lutheran Church in San Francisco, Calif., and director of Lutheran Latino Ministries of San Francisco from 1975 to 1986.

Jaech earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Ind., in 1971, and a Master of Divinity degree from Christ Seminary–Seminex in 1975.

Information about the ELCA Southwestern Washington Synod is available at lutheranssw.org.


 
https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7989
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 15, 2019, 11:55:06 AM
From ELCA News:

Quote
Suzanne Darcy Dillahunt re-elected bishop of the ELCA Southern Ohio Synod

CHICAGO (June 13, 2019) – The Rev. Suzanne Darcy Dillahunt was elected June 7 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the Southern Ohio Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at Wittenberg University in Springfield, Ohio.

Dillahunt was elected on the first ballot, with 252 votes. A total of 215 votes were needed for election.

Prior to becoming bishop, Dillahunt served as assistant to the synod bishop from 1996 to 2013. She served as co-pastor of Grace Lutheran Church in Eaton, Ohio, from 1994 to 1996, as associate pastor of Peace Lutheran Church in Gahanna, Ohio, from 1990 to 1994, as co-pastor of Faith in Christ Lutheran Church in Springfield, Ohio, from 1988 to 1990, and as pastor of Christ Lutheran in Springfield from 1987 to 1988.

Dillahunt received a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Arizona in Tucson in 1981 and a Master of Divinity from Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Columbus, Ohio, in 1986. Trinity Lutheran Seminary at Capital University is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Information about the Southern Ohio Synod is available at www.southernohiosynod.org.


 

https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7990
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 15, 2019, 12:18:30 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984

Another one that appears to have been a pastor for less than a decade being elected as bishop?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 15, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984

Another one that appears to have been a pastor for less than a decade being elected as bishop?
I was just going to note the same thing. M.Div in 2013 and bishop in 2019?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John_Hannah on June 15, 2019, 02:07:10 PM
ELCA News writes:

Quote
Richard Jaech re-elected bishop of the ELCA Southwestern Washington Synod
 
CHICAGO (June 12, 2019) – The Rev. Richard E. Jaech was elected June 7 to serve a second six-year term as bishop of the Southwestern Washington Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Hilton Hotel in Vancouver, Wash.

Jaech was elected on the first ballot, with 170 votes. A total of 161 votes were needed for election.

Prior to becoming bishop, Jaech served as pastor of Beautiful Savior Lutheran Church in Vancouver, Wash., from 1987 to 2013. He served as pastor of St. Mary and St. Martha Lutheran Church in San Francisco, Calif., and director of Lutheran Latino Ministries of San Francisco from 1975 to 1986.

Jaech earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Ind., in 1971, and a Master of Divinity degree from Christ Seminary–Seminex in 1975.

Information about the ELCA Southwestern Washington Synod is available at lutheranssw.org.


 
https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7989

Probably the son of a former District President (Bishop) of the Northwest District (Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Alaska).

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 15, 2019, 03:26:32 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984

Another one that appears to have been a pastor for less than a decade being elected as bishop?
I was just going to note the same thing. M.Div in 2013 and bishop in 2019?
Similar pattern for Lower Susquehanna Synod Bishop Dunlop--served his only parish 2005 - 2013, then won his first election.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 15, 2019, 04:58:39 PM
Bishop James Dunlop is about 63 years old.  He was also the interim counselor during
the United Seminary of PA fiasco over an elected Seminary President who at one time
was against homosexual pastors.  She was then replaced.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 15, 2019, 07:56:48 PM
Bishop James Dunlop is about 63 years old.  He was also the interim counselor during
the United Seminary of PA fiasco over an elected Seminary President who at one time
was against homosexual pastors.  She was then replaced.

During that Interimship Bishop Dunlop took a leave of absence from his Synodical duties and entrusted most of the functions of his office to the Secretary of the  Synod.

Yes, most of his adult/working years have been spent in fields other than Ordained ministry.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: RayToy on June 15, 2019, 09:59:01 PM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984

Another one that appears to have been a pastor for less than a decade being elected as bishop?
I was just going to note the same thing. M.Div in 2013 and bishop in 2019?
Similar pattern for Lower Susquehanna Synod Bishop Dunlop--served his only parish 2005 - 2013, then won his first election.

    Well, he appears to have been the lay leader of a special population congregation and was going to seminary while leading this congregation.  Notice the different title from 2007-2012.  Still, that is only 12 years.


Ray
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 16, 2019, 11:47:06 AM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Yehiel Curry elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod

CHICAGO (June 11, 2019) – The Rev. Yehiel Curry, Chicago, was elected June 8 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Chicago Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 7-8 at the Tinley Park (Ill.) Convention Center.

Curry was elected on the fifth ballot, with 258 votes. The Rev. Heidi Torgerson, director for mission personnel and leadership formation, ELCA Global Mission, received 226 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Shekinah Chapel Lutheran Church in Riverdale since 2013. He served as mission developer of Shekinah from 2007 to 2012.

Curry received a Bachelor of Arts from Lewis University in Romeoville, Ill., in 1995 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago in 2013. The Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

He will be installed in October at a location to be determined.

The Rev. Wayne N. Miller has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the ELCA Metropolitan Chicago Synod is available at mcselca.org/.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7984

Another one that appears to have been a pastor for less than a decade being elected as bishop?
I was just going to note the same thing. M.Div in 2013 and bishop in 2019?
Similar pattern for Lower Susquehanna Synod Bishop Dunlop--served his only parish 2005 - 2013, then won his first election.

    Well, he appears to have been the lay leader of a special population congregation and was going to seminary while leading this congregation.  Notice the different title from 2007-2012.  Still, that is only 12 years.


Ray

And a lay leader is not a pastor.  Perhaps he is extremely gifted by God, and the convention recognized that.  Still, I would be a bit uncomfortable with a bishop who is (in relative terms) a new pastor.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 16, 2019, 12:10:07 PM
Given your history, I would suspect that those of you in the Missouri Synod would be uncomfortable with a bishop who is any kind of Bishop.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 16, 2019, 01:24:05 PM
Given your history, I would suspect that those of you in the Missouri Synod would be uncomfortable with a bishop who is any kind of Bishop.

While I suspect that your response was just to take another shot/dig at the LCMS, I will answer:

1. There are some in the LCMS who long for bishops; we have a number who post here on this very site who openly state that is their preference.

2. Polity is an adiaphoron: the Church may adopt whatever polity she wishes (within reason, of course).

3. The LCMS does not have bishops but rather district presidents for a very good reason.  I agree with that decision/polity as being the best, at least for our current setting.

4. I used the title of bishop in my post above simply because the ELCA does have bishops, and THAT is the church body which is under discussion.  My suspicion is that had I spoken of district presidents instead of bishops, that too would have elicited a negative reaction from you.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: mj4 on June 16, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
So would any of you like to venture a response to the question in the subject of this thread? Is there something discernible "in the air"? Are there any reemerging themes or patterns? We've already mentioned young bishops. Anything else?
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on June 16, 2019, 05:40:39 PM
This is certainly noteworthy although not part of a larger trend:  Rev. Beth Schlegel, STS, has been elected Secretary of the Lower Susquehanna Synod.

To the best of my knowledge she is the first STS subscriber to hold such a position of ELCA Synodical leadership.

Pastor Schlegel was one of the original 27 signers of the Rule of the Society of The Holy Trinity in September of 1997 and has remained very active in that ministerium, holding the position of Dean of the Susquehanna Chapter for a period of time (although she is not presently Dean).

For more than a decade a group of Lutheran clergy (with some occasional laity and folks from other traditions) have been gathering nearly every Tuesday morning during the academic year at Pastor Schlegel's congregation to share Morning Prayer followed by coffee, colloquy, and conversation.  At first this group was purely ELCA but as time went on it became a pan-Lutheran gathering including NALC and LCMC.

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 16, 2019, 05:54:19 PM
So would any of you like to venture a response to the question in the subject of this thread? Is there something discernible "in the air"? Are there any reemerging themes or patterns? We've already mentioned young bishops. Anything else?

My question came to mind when, on the first weekend of Synod Assembly season, two of the three Bishops available for re-election were not re-elected.  The next weekend it went to the fifth ballot before the (one eligible for election) Bishop was re-elected.  But since then, only one needed to go beyond the third ballot for re-election.

Of the 21 elections for Bishop this year, 10 were to elect a successor to retiring Bishops, and one was filling a vacancy. 

Of the 13 new Bishops-elect, 8 (including this weekend's elections) are women.

Pax, Steven+


Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Richard Johnson on June 16, 2019, 10:10:32 PM
This is certainly noteworthy although not part of a larger trend:  Rev. Beth Schlegel, STS, has been elected Secretary of the Lower Susquehanna Synod.

To the best of my knowledge she is the first STS subscriber to hold such a position of ELCA Synodical leadership.



Perhaps true, though I held a similar position for seven years before STS was born. It isn't really a very powerful position, but one gets a lot of opportunitird to vote "no."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: DCharlton on June 16, 2019, 11:34:08 PM
This is certainly noteworthy although not part of a larger trend:  Rev. Beth Schlegel, STS, has been elected Secretary of the Lower Susquehanna Synod.

To the best of my knowledge she is the first STS subscriber to hold such a position of ELCA Synodical leadership.



Perhaps true, though I held a similar position for seven years before STS was born. It isn't really a very powerful position, but one gets a lot of opportunitird to vote "no."

Rev. Ken Blyth, STS, is Secretary of the Florida-Bahamas Synod.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 17, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
From ELCA News:
Quote
Kurt Kusserow re-elected bishop of the ELCA Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod

CHICAGO (June 17, 2019) – The Rev. Kurt F. Kusserow was elected June 13 to serve a third six-year term as bishop of the Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 13-15 at California University of Pennsylvania in California, Pa.

Kusserow was elected on the second ballot, with 232 votes. A total of 219 votes were needed for election.

Prior to becoming bishop in 2007, Kusserow served as pastor of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Latrobe, Pa., from 1997 to 2007, and as pastor of the Westmoreland Unit of Town and Country Lutheran Ministry, serving Faith Lutheran Church, Apollo (Oklahoma Boro), Pa., and Hebron Lutheran Church, Avonmore, Pa., from 1989 to 1996.

Kusserow received a Bachelor of Arts from Thiel College in 1985 and a Master of Divinity from Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Columbus, Ohio, in 1989. Thiel is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities and Trinity is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Information about the Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod is available at swpasynod.org.



https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7992

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 19, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Leila Ortiz elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod

CHICAGO (June 18, 2019) – The Rev. Leila M. Ortiz, Washington, D.C., was elected June 15 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 14-15 at the College Park (Md.) Marriot and Conference Center.

Ortiz was elected on the fifth ballot, with 150 votes. The Rev. Jeanette D. Leisk, pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Alexandria, Va., received 121 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as assistant to the synod bishop for mobility and candidacy since 2016. She served as associate pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Gaithersburg, Md., from 2014 to 2016, and pastor-in-residence at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Herndon, Va., from 2013 to 2014.

Ortiz received a Bachelor of Psychology from Wagner College in Staten Island, N.Y., in 2005 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia (now United) in 2009. She is currently a doctoral candidate at United. Wagner is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities, and United is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Ortiz will be installed Oct. 12 at National Presbyterian Church in Washington, D.C.

The Rev. Richard H. Graham has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod is available at metrodcelca.org.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7993
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 19, 2019, 09:15:23 AM
ELCA News reports:

Quote
Leila Ortiz elected bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod

CHICAGO (June 18, 2019) – The Rev. Leila M. Ortiz, Washington, D.C., was elected June 15 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 14-15 at the College Park (Md.) Marriot and Conference Center.

Ortiz was elected on the fifth ballot, with 150 votes. The Rev. Jeanette D. Leisk, pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Alexandria, Va., received 121 votes.

The bishop-elect has served as assistant to the synod bishop for mobility and candidacy since 2016. She served as associate pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Gaithersburg, Md., from 2014 to 2016, and pastor-in-residence at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Herndon, Va., from 2013 to 2014.

Ortiz received a Bachelor of Psychology from Wagner College in Staten Island, N.Y., in 2005 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia (now United) in 2009. She is currently a doctoral candidate at United. Wagner is one of 26 ELCA colleges and universities, and United is one of seven ELCA seminaries.

Ortiz will be installed Oct. 12 at National Presbyterian Church in Washington, D.C.

The Rev. Richard H. Graham has served as bishop since 2007 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Synod is available at metrodcelca.org.


https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7993
This is another awfully thin resume. Bishop might possibly be a good fit, but the problem is that it is a position, presumably, of real executive authority and accountability, unlike the positions she held prior. But she's been in charge of mobility and candidacy in her synod, so she probably has some relationship with most of the pastors, which could explain her ability to survive the ballots as a lot of people's second choice.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 19, 2019, 09:19:11 AM
Bachelor of Psychology?  Never heard of that degree before.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 19, 2019, 09:27:57 AM
There seems to be a bit of a trend for electing Bishops who have around a decade of pastoral experience. It also means that often they are younger pastors, especially if they aren't second career. Is this perhaps not so much a trend toward less experienced pastors as Bishop but rather younger pastors. Presumably fresh ideas and perhaps more energetic. Or even a generational thing, looking to a new generation for leadership. Interesting trend.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Eileen Smith on June 19, 2019, 09:42:38 AM
I assume this is the Pr. Ortiz elected bishop.  https://www.leilamortiz.com/about-me (https://www.leilamortiz.com/about-me)  From the site: 

"The Rev. Leila Michelle Ortiz is a_Luthercostal; an inspired preacher, teacher, and speaker who was raised in the Pentecostal Church and addressed by the Gospel anew in the Lutheran Church. Given her spiritual formation and theological liberation, Leila dares to work with the Spirit as She restores a fractured church and heals wounded souls. Leila has a heart for serving God’s people in practical and pastoral ways. Leila is called to preach and teach in communities that wrestle with their complicity in the unjust systems present in the church and in society. She is  especially interested in co-creating sacred space with people who:"  (To know with whom she wishes to create sacred space you will need to read "About Me."   ;)

In reading this I agree with George - church leaders need to speak in everyday language.

I agree that her resume is thin as to pastoral (congregational) experience.  I wish bishops would take on more seasoned clergy as assistants if, indeed, this will serve as a path to bishop. 
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: D. Engebretson on June 19, 2019, 09:50:20 AM
I realize this thread primarily concerns ELCA issues, but looking even at my own synod I often wonder if laypeople, in particular, vote in candidates that they know have extensive pastoral experience?  My sense is they do not.  Because of our more democratic system it is hard to have people who are more qualified for such positions placed there.  If the ELCA is anything like the LCMS in this regard we simply do not have a system that determines real eligibility for such pastoral supervisory positions.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on June 19, 2019, 11:25:25 AM
It could be that the more established pastors are quite comfortable in their positions. In some cases, being elected to the bishop's office would mean a pay cut - and much more travel; and likely more headaches.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: peter_speckhard on June 19, 2019, 11:54:23 AM
Just to finish up the list of people Bishop-elect Ortiz wants to partner with, from her "about me" page, she specifies people who:

believe the church is “BS,” but know that God isn’t

·      have been hurt by toxic theologies

·      are enduring spiritual trauma

·      may feel spiritually homeless

·      are fierce followers of Jesus and

·      are intimately familiar with the movement of the                 

       Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: TERJr on June 19, 2019, 12:39:35 PM
Just to finish up the list of people Bishop-elect Ortiz wants to partner with, from her "about me" page, she specifies people who:

believe the church is “BS,” but know that God isn’t

·      have been hurt by toxic theologies

·      are enduring spiritual trauma

·      may feel spiritually homeless

·      are fierce followers of Jesus and

·      are intimately familiar with the movement of the                 

       Holy Spirit.


She could be describing confessional Lutherans in the ELCA in the bullet points but somehow I doubt that’s who she means.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 19, 2019, 01:10:18 PM
Bachelor of Psychology?  Never heard of that degree before.

It's pretty much a stepping stone degree. Here's info I found about it. I had never heard of it myself, but I knew of people with Bachelor's degrees who had majored in psychology, so I figure it must have existed.

https://www.psychology.org/degrees/bachelors/ (https://www.psychology.org/degrees/bachelors/)
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 19, 2019, 02:44:56 PM
Bachelor of Psychology?  Never heard of that degree before.

It's pretty much a stepping stone degree. Here's info I found about it. I had never heard of it myself, but I knew of people with Bachelor's degrees who had majored in psychology, so I figure it must have existed.

https://www.psychology.org/degrees/bachelors/ (https://www.psychology.org/degrees/bachelors/)

I am aware of Bachelor degrees in psychology, but those were either BS or BA degrees.  This, as written, is not that.  Perhaps it is merely a journalistic or editorial error, and her degree is of the BS or BA variety.  I was wondering if there was an actual Bachelor of Psychology degree.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: pearson on June 19, 2019, 05:06:57 PM

I was wondering if there was an actual Bachelor of Psychology degree.


No.  Not at any accredited college or university in the U. S.

Tom Pearson

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dave Likeness on June 19, 2019, 05:30:01 PM
A Bachelor of Psychology is not an academic degree, but a mental state of mind for unmarried men.

That great theologian Oscar Wilde once spoke on the subject of bachelorhood.
He said, "Bigamy is having one wife too many.  Monogamy is the same."
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 19, 2019, 06:45:08 PM
Wagner College offers several academic programs through its Psychology Department, and confers both a BA and a BS in Psychology (https://wagner.edu/psychology/major/psychmajor/).

spt+
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on June 19, 2019, 06:48:06 PM
This concludes the ELCA News releases on Bishop's elections:

Quote
Michael Lozano elected bishop of the ELCA Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod

CHICAGO (June 19, 2019) – The Rev. Michael L. Lozano, Sharon, Pa., was elected June 15 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 13-15 at Thiel College in Greenville, Pa.

Lozano was elected on the fifth ballot, with 71 votes. The Rev. William Coleman, pastor of Luther Memorial Lutheran Church in Erie, Pa., received 61.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Christ Lutheran Church in Sharon, Pa., since 2014. He was pastor of Gethsemane Lutheran Church in Gainesville, Fla., from 2005 to 2007; Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mount Holly Springs, Pa., from 1996 to 2005; and St. Paul Evangelical Lutheran Church in Catawissa, Pa., from 1993 to 1996. An active U.S. Army Reserves chaplain, he served this call full time from 2008 to 2014.

Lozano received a Bachelor of Science from Mansfield (Pa.) University in 1988 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia (now United) in 1992. United is one of seven ELCA seminaries. He received a Master of Strategic Studies from the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., in 2015.

Lozano will be installed Oct.13 at location to be determined.

The Rev. Ralph E. Jones has served as bishop since 2001 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod is available at nwpaelca.org.

 

https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7994

Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Dan Fienen on June 19, 2019, 07:56:48 PM
I have variously characterized my second Masters as a Masters in the Humanities and more often a Masters in Religious Philosophy.  Thecnically it was listed as a Masters of Arts in the Humanities. MAs are standard, the other designations are more descriptive.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 19, 2019, 08:56:19 PM
I have variously characterized my second Masters as a Masters in the Humanities and more often a Masters in Religious Philosophy.  Thecnically it was listed as a Masters of Arts in the Humanities. MAs are standard, the other designations are more descriptive.

Yes, but you used the word "in" while the news release used the word "of".  Like Bachelor OF Arts, or Bachelor OF Science (even capitalizing Psychology, as is done with Arts or Science).  So, I wondered if there was such a degree as Bachelor OF Psychology.  Apparently, there is not and it was merely sloppy writing/editing.  Not a big deal one way or the other, just was curious if a new type of Bachelor's degree was available.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: George Erdner on June 20, 2019, 12:14:53 AM
Wagner College offers several academic programs through its Psychology Department, and confers both a BA and a BS in Psychology (https://wagner.edu/psychology/major/psychmajor/).

spt+

I believe the issue is extreme nitpicking over calling the sheepskin of someone with a BS in Psychology or BA in Psychology a "Bachelor of Psychology". When that issue is resolved, we can then debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And regardless of what anyone says, it depends on whether they're engaged in ballroom dancing or square dancing.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John_Hannah on June 20, 2019, 09:36:59 AM
This concludes the ELCA News releases on Bishop's elections:

Quote
Michael Lozano elected bishop of the ELCA Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod

CHICAGO (June 19, 2019) – The Rev. Michael L. Lozano, Sharon, Pa., was elected June 15 to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The election took place during the synod assembly, held June 13-15 at Thiel College in Greenville, Pa.

Lozano was elected on the fifth ballot, with 71 votes. The Rev. William Coleman, pastor of Luther Memorial Lutheran Church in Erie, Pa., received 61.

The bishop-elect has served as pastor of Christ Lutheran Church in Sharon, Pa., since 2014. He was pastor of Gethsemane Lutheran Church in Gainesville, Fla., from 2005 to 2007; Evangelical Lutheran Church in Mount Holly Springs, Pa., from 1996 to 2005; and St. Paul Evangelical Lutheran Church in Catawissa, Pa., from 1993 to 1996. An active U.S. Army Reserves chaplain, he served this call full time from 2008 to 2014.

Lozano received a Bachelor of Science from Mansfield (Pa.) University in 1988 and a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia (now United) in 1992. United is one of seven ELCA seminaries. He received a Master of Strategic Studies from the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., in 2015.

Lozano will be installed Oct.13 at location to be determined.

The Rev. Ralph E. Jones has served as bishop since 2001 and will retire Aug. 31.

Information about the Northwestern Pennsylvania Synod is available at nwpaelca.org.

 

https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7994


It is interesting that this synod elected a graduate of the U.S. Army War College. I find it encouraging. Bishop-elect Lozano still serves as a chaplain in the U.S. Army Reserve (i. e., part time). Is that politically correct?

Full disclosure: I met him years ago serving together at the U.S. Army Chaplain School; later I attended his wedding.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Charles Austin on June 20, 2019, 11:32:26 AM
Actually, I think that learning strategy at the army’s war college might be pretty good training for a bishop.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John_Hannah on June 20, 2019, 11:37:58 AM
Actually, I think that learning strategy at the army’s war college might be pretty good training for a bishop.

I certainly agree as an alumnus. The experience enhances one's leadership qualities and it's good for any calling - military, civilian, secular, or ecclesiastical.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Pr. Luke Zimmerman on June 20, 2019, 12:23:01 PM
Actually, I think that learning strategy at the army’s war college might be pretty good training for a bishop.

I certainly agree as an alumnus. The experience enhances one's leadership qualities and it's good for any calling - military, civilian, secular, or ecclesiastical.

Peace, JOHN

Continuing the slight detour from the topic of Synod Assemblies:

My congregation has certainly benefitted by having LCMS members in the Armed Forces attend during their stay at the US Army War College. (Calvary in Mechanicsburg, PA is the nearest LCMS congregation to Carlisle, PA.) We've had at least one LCMS family from the War College for eight of the eleven years of my pastorate; some years we've had two or three families. That type of rate has also been seen in the congregation's past. Some students have been chaplains, including a man who just graduated and will be helping a vacant congregation prior to deploying in the new year. We've also had War College staff members attend. Each of these families bring their talents and gifts during their year at the institution.

I can't speak for the ELCA congregations in the area, but I'd hope that they have similarly benefitted. And I would definitely think that some of the training Rev. Lozano received will help in his administrative duties for the NW PA Synod.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on June 20, 2019, 12:44:59 PM
Wagner College offers several academic programs through its Psychology Department, and confers both a BA and a BS in Psychology (https://wagner.edu/psychology/major/psychmajor/).

spt+

I believe the issue is extreme nitpicking over calling the sheepskin of someone with a BS in Psychology or BA in Psychology a "Bachelor of Psychology". When that issue is resolved, we can then debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And regardless of what anyone says, it depends on whether they're engaged in ballroom dancing or square dancing.

Mr. Erdner,
 Perhaps you need to remember that not everything posted here is a big deal.  I asked about what sounded like a novel degree, simply because it intrigued me.  if you are not interested in such things, ignore them as your own tagline suggests.  I find many posts, even threads, here uninteresting.  But that does not mean they are not so to others.
Title: Re: 2019 Synod Assembies: Something in the Air?
Post by: John_Hannah on June 20, 2019, 03:59:16 PM
Actually, I think that learning strategy at the army’s war college might be pretty good training for a bishop.

I certainly agree as an alumnus. The experience enhances one's leadership qualities and it's good for any calling - military, civilian, secular, or ecclesiastical.

Peace, JOHN

Continuing the slight detour from the topic of Synod Assemblies:

My congregation has certainly benefitted by having LCMS members in the Armed Forces attend during their stay at the US Army War College. (Calvary in Mechanicsburg, PA is the nearest LCMS congregation to Carlisle, PA.) We've had at least one LCMS family from the War College for eight of the eleven years of my pastorate; some years we've had two or three families. That type of rate has also been seen in the congregation's past. Some students have been chaplains, including a man who just graduated and will be helping a vacant congregation prior to deploying in the new year. We've also had War College staff members attend. Each of these families bring their talents and gifts during their year at the institution.

I can't speak for the ELCA congregations in the area, but I'd hope that they have similarly benefitted. And I would definitely think that some of the training Rev. Lozano received will help in his administrative duties for the NW PA Synod.

A classmate was pastor at the LCA (>ELCA) congregation in Carlisle and found exactly what you describe.

By the way the U.S. Army Chaplain School was in Carlisle Barracks for a few years following WW II. Arthur Carl Piepkorn was commandant during part of that time.

Peace, JOHN