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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Norman Teigen on September 01, 2018, 09:34:26 AM

Title: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Norman Teigen on September 01, 2018, 09:34:26 AM
Senator McCain served his country in life and in death.  Watching the funeral proceedings with great interest. How sad that POTUS disrespected this hero.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Jeff-MN on September 01, 2018, 10:55:31 AM
A hour into the funeral, there was a brief reading as the casket was processed into the church. Other than that, nothing particularly Christian in this funeral.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Eileen Smith on September 01, 2018, 11:03:06 AM
Senator McCain served his country in life and in death.  Watching the funeral proceedings with great interest. How sad that POTUS disrespected this hero.

Well... yes and no.  The remarks of Trump as a candidate were disrespectful, so much so that disrespectful seems too tame a word.  Their battles between these men after Trump was elected were disrespectful in that Trump tends to battle as a bratty child utilizing name calling rather than facts.  But I am deeply disappointed in John McCain's legacy which, in this case, is holding a grudge.  Over the past few days I've read much of John McCain's faith and as I type this I'm watching his funeral, including his daughter's political address eulogy.   Some of her remarks were very out of place for such an event better suited to The View. 

McCain chose to follow protocol in many ways in his funeral and to not invite the president of the US is simply wrong.   One may not like the man, many don't -- he makes it awfully hard to -- but he is the president.  I recall a meeting in a church with conflict between congregation and pastor and a synod representative said, "You don't have to like him, you need to respect the office of pastor."  That holds here.  As well to not invite Sarah Palin was also a miss-step in planning.  This funeral is a political event as much as it is a religious rite.

As a war hero, a public servant, a Christian, all the attributes that have been ascribed to him over the last few days he could have used his death for healing by a simple invitation.   Rachel Maddow opined that Trump should have used this time to heal the nation.  I would hope we can agree that there is not a word that Trump could have said or done that would ever be considered healing, if only because it's Trump.  The controversy of the flag had him following protocol - a senator has a flag lowered on the day of death and the day after.  It is sad for the country that he chose not to plan his memorial as a time of healing but even more so for McCain taking a grudge to his grave.  A man who set so many good examples of living in how he lived his life set a bad example at the end.  For what greater legacy does one leave than a life lived as a child of God and as children of God we forgive.

This is not a defense of Trump but rather suggesting that we don't need to follow in Trump's footsteps. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Norman Teigen on September 01, 2018, 11:18:11 AM
America was always great.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 11:19:47 AM
Well stated, Ms. Smith. MccCain's daughter''s comments truly are sad. She has stated that she will not forgive President Trump, so, unfortunately, it is not surprising. May she find healing and peace.

So, Mr. Teigen, you use the death of an American hero to take a swipe at the President? And then follow it up with yet another? What is with you libs?

Want to use Aretha Frankin's funeral to take a cheap shot?  Join Michael Eric Dyson, Georgetown University professor:

"You lugubrious leech, you dopey doppelgδnger of deceit and deviance, you lethal liar, you dimwitted dictator, you foolish fascist."

All while in a church with "ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM" displayed before him.

I watch and read in amazement as those who called Senator McCain a warmonger and worse during his life now "lovingly" embrace him as their orwn for the purpose of taking shots at the President. I'm beginning to think that Trump Derangement Syndrome really does exist.   ::)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: James_Gale on September 01, 2018, 11:39:20 AM
I never understand why or how a Christian funeral service could include so many speeches--many by non-Christians--focusing on the person who has died and mostly ignoring the Christian understanding of life, death, the saving grace of Christ, and the glorious promise of the world to come.  If I were a pastor, I would do all I could to keep eulogies out of funeral services and reserved for some other time.


Ms. McCain's remarks struck me as particularly out of place at a funeral.  I am sad that as she mourns the loss of her father, she seems not so much sad as she is filled to overflowing with bitterness toward those she believes have wronged her father. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 01, 2018, 11:54:40 AM
A man who forgave his captors in Vietnam is not holding a grudge against the current president. Anyone want to float a guess as to why he also wasn't at Barbara Bush's funeral? Maybe the issue is President Trump and not the deceased nor their families.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 12:02:26 PM
A man who forgave his captors in Vietnam is not holding a grudge against the current president. Anyone want to float a guess as to why he also wasn't at Barbara Bush's funeral? Maybe the issue is President Trump and not the deceased nor their families.

M. Staneck

I thought that I recently read that, in his book, John McCain stated that he was unable to forgive his captors. [More specifically, "I still bear them ill will, not because of what they did to me, but because of what they did to some of my friends," McCain said. As to your statement about not holding a grudge against the President, perhaps you're writing in a Stoffregen manner, that yes, McCain IS not holding a grudge since he's dead.   ::)]

As for your implication about Barbara Bush's funeral, did not the White House give a valid reason? Perhaps the issue is about those who preach best construction except with the President show the issue is about them.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 01, 2018, 12:10:17 PM
Perhaps the issue is about those who preach best construction except with the President show the issue is about them.

I continue to marvel at conservative water carriers for a man who is exactly who he has always been - no matter the office he happens to currently hold.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: gan ainm on September 01, 2018, 12:12:25 PM
A man who forgave his captors in Vietnam is not holding a grudge against the current president. Anyone want to float a guess as to why he also wasn't at Barbara Bush's funeral? Maybe the issue is President Trump and not the deceased nor their families.

M. Staneck

I thought that I recently read that, in his book, John McCain stated that he was unable to forgive his captors. [I must have misread. Just read that he did. Perhaps it was his daughter I was thinking of. I am wrong.]

As for your implication about Barbara Bush's funeral, did not the White House give a valid reason? Perhaps the issue is about those who preach best construction except with the President show the issue is about them.

That is one of the most insightful statements I've read for a very long time.  Thank you. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 12:15:07 PM
Perhaps the issue is about those who preach best construction except with the President show the issue is about them.

I continue to marvel at conservative water carriers for a man who is exactly who he has always been - no matter the office he happens to currently hold.

M. Staneck

Yup, the Syndrome is real.   ;)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Eileen Smith on September 01, 2018, 12:25:27 PM
Perhaps the issue is about those who preach best construction except with the President show the issue is about them.

I continue to marvel at conservative water carriers for a man who is exactly who he has always been - no matter the office he happens to currently hold.

M. Staneck

That seems a bit strong.  My post suggested that in a Christian funeral such as this, carefully choreographed by the deceased and including many political figures both current and retired it would have spoken volumes about forgiveness - about grace - if he had made provision for the president of the country -- not for the man, for the office.  It seemed, and perhaps I'm wrong, that he was making a final statement - and it wasn't a healthy one.    As to Barbara Bush's funeral the only statement out of Trump's office was that he wasn't attending out of deference to the Bush family (given the animosity of the campaign, perhaps) and due to the disruption that would be caused by security.  Was he specifically asked not to attend?  We don't know for the Bush family tends to be respectful of the office (even if they can't respect the man) to publicly state whether or not he was invited so we will never know.

I have said repeatedly on this Forum that there is little good that one can say about Trump.  I have, obviously, never endured the suffering that McCain endured thus don't know how deep a wound it is when one's suffering is trivialized as we saw in the election campaign,  and yet there are some people I need to pray for forgiveness more often than I care to - for I believe it is tragic to live one's life in bitterness and to hold a grudge to one's death - even to the point of dictating actions after death. 

This isn't a political post, it is not in defense of Trump, Democrats, or Republicans - simply an opinion.   

We are at the point in the funeral where the mourners pray the Lord's Prayer... forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.  Sometimes there's a simplicity of faith that can't be ignored. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Marshall_Hahn on September 01, 2018, 12:30:58 PM
Actually John McCain did Trump a favor by saying he was not to be invited to his funeral.  Otherwise no matter what Trump had done he would have been excoriated - if he attended, he would have been accused of being a hypocrite.  If he had stayed away, he would have been accused of being unfeeling and petty.  It was a generous move on McCain's part to leave instructions that he not be invited.

Marshall Hahn
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 01:42:10 PM
Since no Lutherans die who are really famous... I guess the only church that we can trust to bring out the Gospel in any extensive manner in large public/civic funerals are Roman Catholics.  Thanks be to God.  And guess what... it is the Liturgy largely that carries the tune.  I was saddened that all Bible readings this week (few there be) were reduced to about two verses. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
my other thought was... and you have to know I hate patriotic songs and anthems... there are only about six (maybe I am being generous)... don't even those who demand and love them, get a bit tired of them... oh, well, maybe it is like my not getting tired of the Kyrie, Greater Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei.  Best re-construction.   
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 01:47:20 PM
and now our folks will for sure know that it is meet, right and dignified to do Sinatra and Danny Boy and offer all kinds of funny stories and remembrances of how I met, lived with and exchanged shots with the dearly departed ... 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 01:49:15 PM
By the way, I liked the speeches, just wished they could have been delivered on the Senate Floor or some such place... and televised too...
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 01, 2018, 01:54:24 PM
Meghan McCain, Joe Lieberman, George W. Bush, Barrack Obama, Henry Kissinger
were the famous people who gave eulogies.

Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art, America the Beautiful, Battle Hymn of the Republic,
Danny Boy were the featured songs

The ceremony had the vibrations of a political rally rather than a Christian funeral.

The Homily by the Jesuit Priest was an embarrassment and lacked any content of Jesus
Christ who died and rose again to give forgiveness and eternal life in heaven to all who believe in Him.
But hey, he only spoke for about 3 minutes at the most.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 01:56:29 PM
Dave, was the "preacher" a Jesuit priest?  He quoted Hopkins, whom he mentioned was a RC Priest... but I think he might have been on the staff of the Episcopal Cathedral.  Not sure.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dave Benke on September 01, 2018, 02:00:39 PM
Actually John McCain did Trump a favor by saying he was not to be invited to his funeral.  Otherwise no matter what Trump had done he would have been excoriated - if he attended, he would have been accused of being a hypocrite.  If he had stayed away, he would have been accused of being unfeeling and petty.  It was a generous move on McCain's part to leave instructions that he not be invited.

Marshall Hahn

I agree, with the proviso that I think McCain did that out of respect for the Office of the President, and for his country.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 02:19:02 PM
Since no Lutherans die who are really famous...

Oh, there have been a few. E.g., my neighbor, General John Vessey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and was a member of Shepherd of the Lake Lutheran in Garrison, MN. He's buried a few miles from where I am writing this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Vessey_Jr.

And Minnesota Governor J.A.O. Preus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._A._O._Preus

I am quite sure that the pure Gospel was proclaimed at both of their funeral services.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 01, 2018, 02:28:04 PM
but not on the level of the two recent funerals is what I meant, but of course you are, as always more correct...   
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 02:46:52 PM
but not on the level of the two recent funerals is what I meant, but of course you are, as always more correct...

No need to be snarky, Harvey. I thought your point was "... I guess the only church that we can trust to bring out the Gospel in any extensive manner in large public/civic funerals are Roman Catholics." That simply is not the case.

https://www.kare11.com/video/news/funeral-for-general-john-vessey/89-2348282

"You be sure to tell everybody about Jesus."

http://www.startribune.com/memorial-service-held-for-former-joint-chiefs-chair-vessey/391932141/

"[General Vessey] left explicit orders about his memorial service: that there be no eulogy and the officiant talk about the power of Jesus Christ."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: James_Gale on September 01, 2018, 02:47:28 PM
By the way, I liked the speeches, just wished they could have been delivered on the Senate Floor or some such place... and televised too...


Agreed.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 01, 2018, 03:34:09 PM
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 01, 2018, 03:38:19 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: John_Hannah on September 01, 2018, 03:46:53 PM
but not on the level of the two recent funerals is what I meant, but of course you are, as always more correct...

No need to be snarky, Harvey. I thought your point was "... I guess the only church that we can trust to bring out the Gospel in any extensive manner in large public/civic funerals are Roman Catholics." That simply is not the case.

https://www.kare11.com/video/news/funeral-for-general-john-vessey/89-2348282

"You be sure to tell everybody about Jesus."

http://www.startribune.com/memorial-service-held-for-former-joint-chiefs-chair-vessey/391932141/

"[General Vessey] left explicit orders about his memorial service: that there be no eulogy and the officiant talk about the power of Jesus Christ."

One report says he is buried at Ft. Snelling; the other at Little Falls. Do you know which one? I suspect it's Ft. Snelling. A friend sent me a picture of his tombstone and he's definitely in a National Cemetery. I don't think Little Falls has one. (I once lived in Royalton, 10 miles away.)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: James_Gale on September 01, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
Since no Lutherans die who are really famous...

Oh, there have been a few. E.g., my neighbor, General John Vessey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and was a member of Shepherd of the Lake Lutheran in Garrison, MN. He's buried a few miles from where I am writing this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Vessey_Jr (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Vessey_Jr).

And Minnesota Governor J.A.O. Preus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._A._O._Preus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._A._O._Preus)

I am quite sure that the pure Gospel was proclaimed at both of their funeral services.


Chief Justice Rehnquist was Lutheran.  As I recall, his Lutheran pastor presided over his funeral, which took place at St Matthew's Cathedral in Washington.  The Catholics were gracious enough to make the cathedral available.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 01, 2018, 03:57:12 PM
Especially since Rehnquist, knowing full well what they get up to at Nat Cat made it clear that he would rise from his coffin and smite those who arranged for a service there.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 01, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
but not on the level of the two recent funerals is what I meant, but of course you are, as always more correct...

No need to be snarky, Harvey. I thought your point was "... I guess the only church that we can trust to bring out the Gospel in any extensive manner in large public/civic funerals are Roman Catholics." That simply is not the case.

https://www.kare11.com/video/news/funeral-for-general-john-vessey/89-2348282

"You be sure to tell everybody about Jesus."

http://www.startribune.com/memorial-service-held-for-former-joint-chiefs-chair-vessey/391932141/

"[General Vessey] left explicit orders about his memorial service: that there be no eulogy and the officiant talk about the power of Jesus Christ."

One report says he is buried at Ft. Snelling; the other at Little Falls. Do you know which one? I suspect it's Ft. Snelling. A friend sent me a picture of his tombstone and he's definitely in a National Cemetery. I don't think Little Falls has one. (I once lived in Royalton, 10 miles away.)

Peace, JOHN

He's buried at the Minnesota State Veterans Cemetery in Little Falls, Minnesota. It's north of Little Falls (hometown of Charles Lindbergh) at Camp Ripley. Our place on Lake Shamineau is a few miles west of there. We can hear the soldiers on their two-week Guards training in the summer, playing with their .50 calibers.

https://mn.gov/mdva/memorials/stateveteranscemeteries/minnesota-state-veterans-cemetery-little-falls.jsp

Gen Vessey and his wife are buried there.

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/1970079/memorial-search?firstName=&lastName=Vessey&page=1#sr-152865826

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/168647269/john-william-vessey

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152865826/avis-claire-vessey
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Eileen Smith on September 01, 2018, 04:05:53 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: loschwitz on September 01, 2018, 04:44:36 PM
The event at the Cathedral was a political rally masquerading as a "memorial service." 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dave Benke on September 01, 2018, 04:53:26 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 01, 2018, 05:35:56 PM
Please look up a CNN story about McCain and his faith. He was a man of deep faith. That faith was tested and proven during his years of imprisonment.  According to the CNN story, he consistently refused to discuss it in anyway that could have been perceived as using it politically. Supposedly when he was imprisoned, he did not pray to be released, but he prayed that he be led to do the right thing. He and his prison mates were not allowed to have Bibles, so they did “Bible study“ by discussing versus if they had memorized or remember
 At yesterday‘s service in the Capitol rotunda, the benediction prayer closed with words something like this quote and we pray in the name of Jesus Christ who Senator McCain believed was his Savior.“
 I did not see much of the funeral today, as I am enjoying Minnesota’s lakes, but I do find much of the discussion upstream creepy. This is not “our“ funeral, it is his funeral. And who are we to say that it all to be conducted the way we would conduct a funeral? If there were kinder comments about the funeral upstream, I apologize for not seeing them before posting this. Reception in certain parts of the lake country is spotty.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: mariemeyer on September 01, 2018, 07:50:53 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 01, 2018, 09:21:07 PM
 That is indeed the article I cited just upstream.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: RevG on September 01, 2018, 09:45:56 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer

When it comes to John McCain all I have to go on are his words and actions. Those very things have never indicated to me a man who greatly valued Jesus of Nazareth; his way, his work.

If anything he was a faithful disciple of American civil religion, so much so that he almost gave up his life for it.  This is honorable in its own right, without a doubt. 

But these hagiographies that keep spilling out from the media are greatly misleading and cover over a rather typical career in Washington full of saying one thing and doing another.  His persona as a maverick was indicative of this.  He voted with Trump 83% of the time and voted for all of his nominees.  He was always ready and willing to bomb the crap out of any place for the sake of democracy and human rights all the while supporting regimes that were against democracy and huge human rights’ violators.  Saudia Arabia being but one example. 

If you want to know why Trump is the president look no further than a politician like John McCain and all the fanfare from the media that claims he was so great and honorable. He is a great representation of the establishment that so many were and are tired of. 

Former President Jimmy Carter once said that John McCain was a warmonger.  I believe he was accurate in this.  The things he said and did, the way he voted, indicate this much. His death does not somehow change that, no matter how much some might claim otherwise.

In Christ,
Scott+

 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 01, 2018, 10:14:32 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

That's helpful, thanks.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on September 01, 2018, 10:43:29 PM
An interesting juxtaposition verging on a contradiction:

Today, the 1st day of September, is the Feast of the Indiction (beginning of the Ecclesiastical Year) in the Orthodox Church, and the commemoration of the very ascetic Symeon the Stylite who spent decades of his life atop a 60+ foot pillar. 

The texts for the Indiction have much to say about religion in public life and certainly provide an appropriate lens through which to consider the ceremonies at the National Cathedral.

Quote
Apolytikion of Beginning of the Indiction
Second Tone


Creator of the universe, setting times and seasons by Your sole authority, bless the cycle of the year of Your grace, O Lord, guarding our rulers and Your nation in peace, at the intercession of the Theotokos, and save us.

Kontakion of Beginning of the Indiction
Fourth Tone


You who created all things in Your infinite wisdom, and set the times by Your own authority, grant Your Christian people victories. Blessing our comings and goings throughout this year, guide our works according to Your divine will.

Prokeimenon. Mode 4.
Psalm 146.5;134.3

Great is our Lord, and great is his power.
Verse: Praise the Lord, for the Lord is good.


The reading is from St. Paul's First Letter to Timothy 2:1-7

Timothy, my son, first of all, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Gospel Reading Luke 4:16-22

At that time, Jesus came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." And all spoke well of him, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Keith Falk on September 01, 2018, 10:49:48 PM
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 01, 2018, 11:04:03 PM
@Harvey Mozolak........Today, the homily at the National Cathedral was delivered
by Father Edward A. Reese, S.J. He was listed in the official program for John McCain
funeral.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Mark Brown on September 01, 2018, 11:48:49 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I wish I could find the link, but there was a story about McCain's faith in the past week.  If I am remembering right he was raised Episcopalian which makes sense for his social background.  One of the vignettes about the article was how he still remembered and used quite often the liturgical calls and responses I think is being something of a chaplain when he was a POW.  In his later years he reportedly had membership(?)/attended when in town (?) (It was unlcear) a big mega-church place.  The article I read, if I remember right not in a conservative press, painted his faith as authentic but more like the reserved faith of his elders.  Which of course conflicted completely with the idea of joining mega-church evangelicalism which seems so un-McCain.

I saw this comment about the events today which seemed to have it about right. "The National Cathedral is a safe place for megachurch and guitar-mass American Christians to thrill at order and ceremony. It's safe because the object of worship is America, which deserves dignity and order, and not God, Who apparently prefers soft rock and emotional anarchy."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Mark Brown on September 02, 2018, 12:07:48 AM
This wasn't the article I read, but it seems to copy(?) a whole bunch, or maybe the one I read copied from this, changing a couple of lines here and there.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/08/27/john-mccain-religion-beliefs-raised-episcopal-attended-baptist-church-prisoner-war-pow/1109643002/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/08/27/john-mccain-religion-beliefs-raised-episcopal-attended-baptist-church-prisoner-war-pow/1109643002/)

Ah, here it is, from the RNS.

https://religionnews.com/2018/08/27/sen-john-mccain-known-as-a-veteran-but-also-a-man-of-quiet-faith/ (https://religionnews.com/2018/08/27/sen-john-mccain-known-as-a-veteran-but-also-a-man-of-quiet-faith/)

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 02, 2018, 09:04:53 AM
thank you Dave, for the correction, I was wrong.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: mj4 on September 02, 2018, 12:19:31 PM
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/ (https://www.bcponline.org/)

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.


Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 02, 2018, 01:26:28 PM
I don't have my ole Episcopal and Anglican texts anymore...   

but if Rite II begins something like this:
Jesus is Resurrection and Life
and the Rite I begins something like this:
Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life

does it necessarily mean without the definite article that he is less definitely or only one of several forms/person of Resurrection and Life?  I don't think so.

if we say that Jesus is forgiveness and life... that is quite an ordinary and OK statement without an article before forgiveness even though theologically forgiveness in Christ is the only one that counts. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: peter_speckhard on September 02, 2018, 04:17:37 PM
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer

When it comes to John McCain all I have to go on are his words and actions. Those very things have never indicated to me a man who greatly valued Jesus of Nazareth; his way, his work.

If anything he was a faithful disciple of American civil religion, so much so that he almost gave up his life for it.  This is honorable in its own right, without a doubt. 

But these hagiographies that keep spilling out from the media are greatly misleading and cover over a rather typical career in Washington full of saying one thing and doing another.  His persona as a maverick was indicative of this.  He voted with Trump 83% of the time and voted for all of his nominees.  He was always ready and willing to bomb the crap out of any place for the sake of democracy and human rights all the while supporting regimes that were against democracy and huge human rights’ violators.  Saudia Arabia being but one example. 

If you want to know why Trump is the president look no further than a politician like John McCain and all the fanfare from the media that claims he was so great and honorable. He is a great representation of the establishment that so many were and are tired of. 

Former President Jimmy Carter once said that John McCain was a warmonger.  I believe he was accurate in this.  The things he said and did, the way he voted, indicate this much. His death does not somehow change that, no matter how much some might claim otherwise.

In Christ,
Scott+
McCain did indeed represent the kind of politics that uses the idea of being above the fray as a weapon in the fray. I think his kind of politics pushed the electorate toward the Tea Party and now the Democratic Socialists, i.e. the extremes. The extremes are far more honest and meaningful, if far less polished and civil.

Oddly enough, McCain is the only politician I ever volunteered my time for. I never had much use for him politically, but thought the pro-life cause would be set back a lot by an Obama presidency. McCain was pro-life when it suited his goals, but really the only thing that made me think there would be any difference was the presence of Palin on the ticket. But I see she also was dis-invited from the funeral. McCain later said he wished he would have a chosen Joe Lieberman to be his running mate. Now try this for an intellectual exercise-- write a campaign commercial showing why it would be in the least bit important that a McCain/Lieberman ticket defeat an Obama/Biden ticket in 2008. How would the country be better off, heck, what would even be discernibly different today? Nothing relevant I can think of. Certainly I wouldn't have wasted three October Saturdays working for either ticket. And that is the point-- why would anyone? If asked why they bothered to support the GOP, the typical Republican in 2008 could only ever muster some vague, rhetorical equivalent of, "Because the R-belly sneeches have R's upon thars."   

Another interesting mental exercise is to consider how very little political contorting Hillary Clinton would have had to have done to be on the ticket with either McCain or Obama. Running against Obama in the '08 primaries she sounded almost exactly like a McCain/Lieberman ticket would sound. And running against Trump in '16 she sounded like she'd been on an Obama/Clinton ticket all along. Or think of it this way; if McCain ran with Lieberman and Obama ran with Biden, and then they decided to switch running mates, would anyone notice that suddenly it was McCain/Biden and Obama/Lieberman? Could Lieberman and Biden make their own ticket and run against Obama/McCain? 

So be it. I'm not saying centrists and career politicians can't do a competent job of managing the government. But in order to get elected without being open and up front about the fact that their own career is their platform (which would be a political liability indeed) they have to campaign as though it matters somehow that they and not the other guy win the election. But when it repeatedly turns out afterward that it likely didn't make one whit of difference that they and not the other guy won, the people who are actually passionate about the issues that always get campaigned on but never get governed on decide enough is enough. That has or is happening to both parties.

I doubt I'll ever volunteer for a campaign again, at least not a national campaign. In fact, the How to Think Like an Economist course from the Teaching Company makes the point that even bothering to vote is an irrational choice considered economically. That is, the amount of time and energy it takes even to fill out a ballot almost certainly exceeds the expected value of that vote. I'll still vote because I think I have a duty to do so, but I won't donate or volunteer; I have no such obligation. The thing is, you aren't working, and donating, and voting for a candidate; you're working, donating, and voting for the difference between that candidate and the other candidates on the ballot. That is where all the passion rightfully belongs.

I know a guy who considered running for congress this year. He is a centrist/moderate who was alarmed by the rise of Trump and thought it was time to do something concrete about it rather than join the chorus of griping about it. But an exploratory committee concluded he needed either more money or more name recognition/connections (for fund-raising appeal) to have a legitimate shot of winning. I don't think the issue is just money. A lot of the upsets on both Right and Left have been by people who were vastly outspent. The problem is that if you're going to run as a competent, moderate centrist, you'd better be running against a group of absolute lunatics if you want anyone in your district to think it would matter whether you or the other guy got elected. If your campaign is based on, "I'd be a good congressman, slightly better than my friend from across the aisle," well, people might vote for you, but in Chesterton's words, people aren't going to "go clad in gold and crimson for that." They aren't going to put themselves out there, go the extra mile, and really sweat to make sure the imperceptibly more competent candidate wins. They will for Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. They will for the Tea Party. If they see a potential difference concerning something they have genuine passion for, they might go door to door trying to make it happen. 

I have no doubt John McCain was a brave and honorable soldier and have no reason to think he wasn't a decent and honorable man. So are tons of people. It was as a politician that I knew him, and as a politician I will probably always remember him as the guy whose wishy-washiness and self-serving machinations cured me of caring so much. He's the only candidate I ever went clad in gold and crimson for, so to speak, by donating my days off to the effort to elect him, but he was embarrassed by people like me and didn't really care about the policies I was/am passionate about. In short, he was making a fool of me. Oh well. Lesson learned. I still care about politics. I won't volunteer for national campaigns; once was enough, and anyway all the stuff they had me doing-- delivering doorknob hangers, sorting mailings, making cold calls-- was stuff I find annoying when anyone does to me. But I'll still vote. Hopefully not for politicians like McCain, but at his funeral may the memory of the soldier and citizen outshine the politician.         
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Mark Brown on September 02, 2018, 04:43:13 PM
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/ (https://www.bcponline.org/)

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.

Rite 2 stems from a 1976 update that only gave the committee 6 hours to approve or edit the whole "Pastoral Rites" section.  They got up to Rite 2 when time ran out.  It was eventually rolled into the 1979 update to the BCP.  Funny, over on Twitter there is an Episcopal Priest arguing against a bodily resurrection as a fundamentalist figment.  One of the arguers against him is a VP of the LCMS.  I guess the definite article does have meaning.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.   
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: mj4 on September 02, 2018, 05:56:01 PM
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/ (https://www.bcponline.org/)

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.

Rite 2 stems from a 1976 update that only gave the committee 6 hours to approve or edit the whole "Pastoral Rites" section.  They got up to Rite 2 when time ran out.  It was eventually rolled into the 1979 update to the BCP.  Funny, over on Twitter there is an Episcopal Priest arguing against a bodily resurrection as a fundamentalist figment.  One of the arguers against him is a VP of the LCMS.  I guess the definite article does have meaning.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.   

I attended an Episcopal school during the late 70’s. It had an interesting religious culture. Our headmaster was from the Church of England, The chaplain was a Connecticut liberal. He wore a tweed coat with leather patches, and bow tie, of course. I remember him throwing a bible into a wall during a religion class. His point was to demystify the bible for us. I suppose he thought it would knock the reverence for the scriptures out of us. It had the opposite effect on me. The daily chapel services were a hodgepodge of the ’28 Prayer Book, the green Proposed Prayer Book, and photo copies of camp songs. Young Life was the most active Christian group on campus. The diocese was heavily influenced by the Charismatic Movement. Quite a time.

The church was transitioning out of “the Republican Party at prayer” faith of Gerald Ford, HW, and John McCain and into something … different.

By the way, the term “fundamentalism” is weaponized in the Episcopal Church. It’s meant to hurt and extinguish opposition. Marginalization at its finest.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 02, 2018, 08:46:50 PM
Peter, I too have trouble with all politics and flags and national anthems.  I wonder about a man who professes faith and has Danny Boy and Frank Sinatra as his funeral hymn choices.  But then again, my fellow pew sitters (now that I am retired) are not as holy, pious, and theologically astute as I used to think I was from time to time.  I used to get hints at weddings and funerals and if I kept my mouth shut longer than I wanted to and my ears open during Bible Classes there were indicators.  We evaluate that we have lost lots of ground but then sometimes I think we did not hold as much high ground with as many as we thought.  We run into a few indefatigable, humble, generous and gifted souls but the general population of those of us who will be dragged screaming and grumbling into heaven (extremely loose Lewis quotation) are not nice but forgiven creatures. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 03, 2018, 01:25:23 PM
The focus of a Christian Funeral is on what Jesus Christ, the Son of God has done for us.
He died on the cross and shed His blood to forgive our sins and reconcile us with God.
He rose from the grave to conquer death and give eternal life in heaven to all who believe in Him.

The focus of the Political Rally  was on what John McCain had done for his country.
Yet, John McCain will not get to heaven because he was a P.O.W.
He will not get to heaven because he was a U.S.Senator from Arizona.
Yes, he served and sacrificed for his country in wartime.  However, John McCain will only get
to heaven through faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 03, 2018, 05:40:55 PM

Mollie Tibbetts' father has pleaded that her death not be exploited to further positions on the immigration debate.  It may be true that her killer was here illegally and that with stricter controls he might not have been there to kill her and she would still be alive.  It is much less clear that his illegal status contributed to that death, or that stricter immigration controls would significantly reduce violent crime rates.  Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.


Sen. John McCain's daughter and others used his funeral to take veiled shots at Pres. Trump.  Was that any less deplorable to use his death and funeral to further political agendas or to take political shots at people that the senator, his family or friends disliked?  If it is deplorable for people to use Mollie Tibbetts to slam some people and score political points, why is it not also deplorable with Sen. McCain?


After the Parkland shootings and many others, those deaths were exploited to score political points and push a political agenda.  Was that acceptable in a way that politicizing the death of Mollie Tibbetts is not?


My point is not that politicizing Mollie Tibbetts should be acceptable, far from it.  I have great sympathy for her father.  My point is that it is not just the Right or Conservatives or Republicans who are doing this.  A single standard of not using tragedies or the deaths of loved ones as political fodder I think would be far superior to a double standard where some deaths and some tragedies that lend themselves to support for political causes are fair game for exploitation and others, on the other side are not.


Let us mourn John McCain and honor his life, his courage and service.  Cashing in his death to score cheap shots at political opponents, even those he himself opposed, in unworthy of him and of those who honor his memory.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 03, 2018, 06:34:51 PM
Pastor Fienen writes (Re Miss Tibbetts):
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.

I comment:
I agree.

Pastor Fienen goes on:
Sen. John McCain's daughter and others used his funeral to take veiled shots at Pres. Trump.  Was that any less deplorable to use his death and funeral to further political agendas or to take political shots at people that the senator, his family or friends disliked?  If it is deplorable for people to use Mollie Tibbetts to slam some people and score political points, why is it not also deplorable with Sen. McCain?

I comment:
This is one time when the "yes-but-they-do-it-too" refrain from Pastor Fienen is wrong wrong wrong. Senator McCain was by choice a public figure. The shots at him were taken by a man running for the highest office in the land, in a way designed to further that man's career. There can be no comparison. None at all.

Pastor Fienen again:
After the Parkland shootings and many others, those deaths were exploited to score political points and push a political agenda.  Was that acceptable in a way that politicizing the death of Mollie Tibbetts is not?

Me again:
Yes, and it is deplorable that anyone would think otherwise.

Pastor Fienen:
A single standard of not using tragedies or the deaths of loved ones as political fodder I think would be far superior to a double standard where some deaths and some tragedies that lend themselves to support for political causes are fair game for exploitation and others, on the other side are not.
Me:
You cannot possibly be that naοve or really think that there is some "standard." But consider the cases based on what I cited upstream. One involves all public, political, civic figures. One does not. And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families.

Pastor Fienen:
Cashing in his death to score cheap shots at political opponents, even those he himself opposed, in unworthy of him and of those who honor his memory.
Me:
Are you serious? Are you thinking? It is those who "honor his memory" who brought those words into the setting in order to - wait for it - honor his memory. And by they way, if you will think more carefully, as I am sure you are able of doing, they were hardly "cheap shots." They were eloquent, tearful, heartfelt, laments on the situation.
Want to hear a cheap shot? Listen to the man who said these words: "I like people who weren't captured." (or any of several hundred other blurtings and tweets).
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 03, 2018, 06:55:59 PM

Perhaps I see your point, if Trump does it it is wrong, wrong, wrong.  If it is done against Trump or gun owners or advocates for defended boarders it is all meet, right and salutary, should even be mandatory.


Me:
You cannot possibly be that naοve or really think that there is some "standard." But consider the cases based on what I cited upstream. One involves all public, political, civic figures. One does not. And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families.

Pastor Fienen:

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 03, 2018, 07:46:11 PM
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 03, 2018, 08:01:43 PM
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.


I did a funeral for a 19-year old boy. One of the few things his divorced (and remarried) parents agreed on is that I should talk about the importance of wearing seatbelts. There son didn't. The driver of the car did. She had a sprained ankle. Is mentioning the importance of seat belts a political agenda? (For some it might be, like helmets for motorcyclists in some states - the government intruding into our lives and our freedoms.)


Our funeral liturgy includes this note (from the Leader's Edition) for after the Prayer of the Day and before the Scripture Readings:

The gathering may conclude with a time when relatives or associates of the deceased comment briefly in thanksgiving for and remembrance of the one who has died. These comments ought not overshadow the proclamation of the word of God that follows.
 
When family or friends speak, (if allowed,) we don't control what they might say. If there are such comments, I want them before the scriptures and sermon. I want the Word of God to have the last word.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Keith Falk on September 03, 2018, 09:51:28 PM
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?


I'm just grateful you didn't resort to name calling in your response.   ::)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 03, 2018, 11:00:35 PM
Apparently, expressing disagreement with our local humble correspondent is seen not as an invitation for discussion but an opportunity for invective, insult and disdain.  He does it so much better than I, I’ll leave him to it.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 03:23:49 AM
Pastor Fienen, my post had five responses, some of them wordy, to your comment.
Your response was "Well, you just think if Trump does it, it's wrong," plus some sarcastic snark.
You call that "discussion"?
Note to Pastor Falk.
Nowhere in my response did I do any name-calling. I even said I thought Pastor Fienen was capable of a better answer than the one he gave. Perhaps you think I called him a mugwump, but careful reading of my comment shows that I did not do that, but that I wondered whether he might be guilty of mugwumpery.
And I make no apology for being forceful. Readers know where I stand and why I stand there. This is a time of great concern for the corruption, venality, incompetence, lies and assaults on our constitution and our freedoms coming from the highest office in our land.
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.
What I often find insulting and deficient in this modest forum is extended Terpsichorean toe-dances full of "on-the-one-side-on-the-other-side" or "yes, but..." or "doesn't everybody do it?".
But we digress.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on September 04, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: mariemeyer on September 04, 2018, 09:52:52 AM
Back to John McCain:  What the cathedral service said about America, Christian funerals and John McCain the politician is open for discussion.

I would submit the funeral did say something about family. The men who spoke, including Lieberman, Bush and Obama, like John McCain, were men for whom family was a valued focus of their life. Adding to their family through adoption demonstrated the degree to which John and Cindy McCain valued children including children of color.

As in all areas of life John McCain was a flawed father and husband. At the same time ceremonies at the time of his death reflected the significance of fathers and husbands in the lives of their wives, sons and daughters.   

Marie Meyer 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: DeHall1 on September 04, 2018, 09:58:11 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.
I think Charles has put on the tinfoil hat that lets him say "I hate Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if he'd waited more than 4 hours and 23 minutes (minus the time it took him to read and minus the time it took him to type) before he put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe (or google) and his own brain might have given him something substantial to say.  Or maybe not.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 04, 2018, 10:50:44 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

Thank you, Steven.

Junior High civics, Charles. Perhaps some incorrect talking point that you read?   ::)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: John_Hannah on September 04, 2018, 11:04:30 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

True enough, Steven. But the Department of Justice is different than say Defense or State or any other Cabinet level department in that it is required to remain neutral and non-political in matters of justice (i.e., investigations and prosecutions).

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Mark Brown on September 04, 2018, 11:10:23 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?

What it largely says is that we just witnessed a week long propaganda effort by, for lack of a better term, the establishment.  Spengler gets is largely right.  http://www.atimes.com/article/a-funeral-for-a-world-that-never-was/ (http://www.atimes.com/article/a-funeral-for-a-world-that-never-was/)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 04, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 11:33:42 AM
Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral, and the President's comments would undercut that.
It is a diversion of attention, I believe, to consider whether Senator McCain was "worthy" or "important enough" to have that kind of memorial. Doesn't matter.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 11:44:27 AM
It is a diversion of attention, I believe, to consider whether Senator McCain was "worthy" or "important enough" to have that kind of memorial. Doesn't matter.

Is there a smacking my palm to my forehead emoji? Consider that inserted here.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 11:51:14 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.

Thanks for the list, Pastor Stoffregen. Clearly McCain is not the only potential outlier. Seems to me that an interesting study could be done on: to whom was the honor accorded and what might that reveal about the cultural moment at the time? And obviously, the family's wishes (which may or may not be on public record anywhere) would certainly factor in.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 12:11:27 PM
Maybe this only interests me, but running through all the names I would consider "outliers" (Robert Taft, Humphrey, Dirkson, Inouye, Pepper, et al), they do all share a few things: (1) a very long political career and (2) they died while still in office.

Now, certainly many have died while in office who did not receive the honor. But it seems that if someone is currently serving a term, had a long career, and is pretty well-known (which goes hand-in-hand with having a long career), being lain in state becomes much more likely. And perhaps that's all there is to it.

That said, I think Spengler's piece (thanks, Pr. Brown), while a little too myopic, hits at much of what has been occurring to me. McCain in some ways typifies much mythology about US governance, much mythology that is very quickly being deconstructed. I think there's a lot more to it than just "Let's stick it to Trump." It seems like a lot of people saying: "McCain's the kind of guy we want." Which seems ironic, considering how many voted against him.

Anywho... enough from me.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: MaddogLutheran on September 04, 2018, 12:12:32 PM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.

Thanks for the list, Pastor Stoffregen. Clearly McCain is not the only potential outlier. Seems to me that an interesting study could be done on: to whom was the honor accorded and what might that reveal about the cultural moment at the time? And obviously, the family's wishes (which may or may not be on public record anywhere) would certainly factor in.

What that list doesn't tell us is the population of U.S. senators who died while still in office..  The last two, reasonably prominent, were Paul Wellstone (already mentioned here) and Ted Kennedy.  The former had not served long enough to deserve such an honor, while the latter had but also is associated with an unfortunate incident with a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island which may have had something to do with not receiving the honor.

Other senators to die in office of which I'm familiar are a couple of mine, John Heinz and Arlen Specter (plane crash and cancer respectively).  Neither of whose service to the country matched McCain.  Despite Trump mocking, I think being held as  POW for 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton earns a man some respect.  Even as I recognize the politicking at his funeral was approaching the Wellstone fever pitch, and I recognize that he might not have gotten such bipartisan kudos (from Democrats) if he had not been so notoriously anti-Trump.  Some people are useful idiots even in death.

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 04, 2018, 12:36:32 PM
Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral...

Indeed, like Robert Kennedy, Eric Holder, and Loretta Lynch.   ::)
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: MaddogLutheran on September 04, 2018, 12:57:38 PM
Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral...

Indeed, like Robert Kennedy, Eric Holder, and Loretta Lynch.   ::)
Very much indeed.  Obama's Justice Department refusing to defend the Bill Clinton's signed Defense of Marriage Act in court was courageous statesmanship.  Trump's Justice Department refusing to defend the Affordable Care Act against a lawsuit by state attorneys' general is an act of rank partisanship. 

I say this not to celebrate or excuse the Justice Dept. ACA inaction, but only highlight again that partisanship accusations are selective.  Personally I find it disgusting that some of the same public people lauding the late senator said some vile, awful things about him in 2008 (looking at you, Chuck Schumer).  When this happen often enough, the pattern is more than a coincidence.  None of this excuses Trump's petty behavior, but merely provides context.  I do believe that McCain acted consistently on his principles, if one bothers to look at what they were.  They just don't easily line up with what is considered acceptable to either the Resistance Left or Trumpkin Right today.

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 04, 2018, 01:08:04 PM
It was nicer when I did not know all your political views, fellow Forum-ites.  I might have guessed but could have been wrong.  I liked it that most in my parishes did not know where I stood at least in the range of blue to red.  And I knew that because they made wrong assumptions often as I listened patiently to things I wished I did not have to hear.  I have many pastoral weaknesses but I have some hope that it was a small strength when I was true to political neutrality.  Is this too free a place for at least this stuff?  Are we just ventilating... I hope.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Mark Brown on September 04, 2018, 01:55:19 PM
Maybe this only interests me, but running through all the names I would consider "outliers" (Robert Taft, Humphrey, Dirkson, Inouye, Pepper, et al), they do all share a few things: (1) a very long political career and (2) they died while still in office.

Now, certainly many have died while in office who did not receive the honor. But it seems that if someone is currently serving a term, had a long career, and is pretty well-known (which goes hand-in-hand with having a long career), being lain in state becomes much more likely. And perhaps that's all there is to it.

That said, I think Spengler's piece (thanks, Pr. Brown), while a little too myopic, hits at much of what has been occurring to me. McCain in some ways typifies much mythology about US governance, much mythology that is very quickly being deconstructed. I think there's a lot more to it than just "Let's stick it to Trump." It seems like a lot of people saying: "McCain's the kind of guy we want." Which seems ironic, considering how many voted against him.

Anywho... enough from me.

There is obviously some inflation on that list.  Let's draw the line after Eisenhower in 1969.  Almost as many after as before (pushing all the lists together), but the before is of much higher importance.  Although, Pr. Morris, I might argue that Inouye shouldn't be an outlier (and might explain McCain a bit).  Inouye was a Medal of Honor winner.  He was the first Representative from the State of HI.  He was also the first Japanese American in the congress which given the events of WW2, his honors made some nod of repair.  Like McCain I'd argue his big accomplishment came long before his time the Congress and like so much in this age it is more about what he represents than any worthy accomplishment in long legislative careers.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 04, 2018, 02:17:01 PM
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.


I did a funeral for a 19-year old boy. One of the few things his divorced (and remarried) parents agreed on is that I should talk about the importance of wearing seatbelts. There son didn't. The driver of the car did. She had a sprained ankle. Is mentioning the importance of seat belts a political agenda? (For some it might be, like helmets for motorcyclists in some states - the government intruding into our lives and our freedoms.)


Our funeral liturgy includes this note (from the Leader's Edition) for after the Prayer of the Day and before the Scripture Readings:

The gathering may conclude with a time when relatives or associates of the deceased comment briefly in thanksgiving for and remembrance of the one who has died. These comments ought not overshadow the proclamation of the word of God that follows.
 
When family or friends speak, (if allowed,) we don't control what they might say. If there are such comments, I want them before the scriptures and sermon. I want the Word of God to have the last word.

In the instance that you mentioned, the non-use of a seat belt, and that case mentioned by someone else of a loved one killed in a drunk driving accident, the cause being mentioned had a direct connection to the death.  And so as we remember the one who died and why, it is perhaps more appropriate to mention/warn against the contributing factor in that death.


Pres. Trump did not cause the death of Sen. McCain.  The comments at the funeral against Trump seem at best a settling of old scores or revenge.  That and "we've got the stage and sympathetic hearers, let's exploit the situation and the audience for our political agenda."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 04, 2018, 02:30:19 PM
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?

I'll admit that I do not have your journalistic credentials nor your experience as an ecclesiastical bureaucrat and statesman, Pr. Austin, so I've missed the experience to tell me that suggesting that my favored head gear involves tinfoil is an example of substantive discussion and respect. 


In your world of careful, thoughtful and substantive discussion, apparently anyone who wants to understand all sides of an issue and understand even the points that people you disagree with are making is a disgusting mugwump.  One picks a side and follows that side completely with no understanding for the other side at all.  Apparently you have never read the posts where I have criticized Pres. Trump and disagreed with him because since I do not join you in your visceral revulsion at anything Trump I "can't bear to have him criticized in any way?"  My point was not that Pres. Trump does not deserve criticism, but perhaps a funeral is not the best place to do it.



Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: David Garner on September 04, 2018, 02:42:25 PM
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?

I'll admit that I do not have your journalistic credentials nor your experience as an ecclesiastical bureaucrat and statesman, Pr. Austin, so I've missed the experience to tell me that suggesting that my favored head gear involves tinfoil is an example of substantive discussion and respect. 


In your world of careful, thoughtful and substantive discussion, apparently anyone who wants to understand all sides of an issue and understand even the points that people you disagree with are making is a disgusting mugwump.  One picks a side and follows that side completely with no understanding for the other side at all.  Apparently you have never read the posts where I have criticized Pres. Trump and disagreed with him because since I do not join you in your visceral revulsion at anything Trump I "can't bear to have him criticized in any way?"  My point was not that Pres. Trump does not deserve criticism, but perhaps a funeral is not the best place to do it.

I went to the Antiochian Village last week for the St. Stephen Course residency, and had a lot of time on the plane, on the bus and in the room to talk to a friend of mine from Church.  One of the things we talked about was the press reaction to the Vigano allegations against the Pope (yes, I know there's a thread on this -- trust me, it's tangential to my point).  My take was the press is at odds with its own agenda here, because having spent as much time as possible chalking this up as "religion bad because pedophilia," it now has to confront credible allegations that this is more like "gay predation bad because institutional cover up," and that doesn't fit the narrative.

One of the things I said to my friend was the press has a real problem because of one thing:  "they know which side they're supposed to be on."

Sometimes, that's literally all that matters.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 04, 2018, 03:13:07 PM
Pastor Fienen writes (Re Miss Tibbetts):
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.

I comment:

I agree.


We agree, sort of.  From what else you've posted I have to wonder if your finding the using of her death to further a political agenda to be deplorable relates more to deploring the political agenda her death was being used to further (and who was using it) than the general idea of using the death of an individual to further a political agenda.  The political exploitation of a death for political purposes did not seem to bother you concerning the death of Sen. McCain and his funeral.

Quote
Pastor Fienen goes on:
Sen. John McCain's daughter and others used his funeral to take veiled shots at Pres. Trump.  Was that any less deplorable to use his death and funeral to further political agendas or to take political shots at people that the senator, his family or friends disliked?  If it is deplorable for people to use Mollie Tibbetts to slam some people and score political points, why is it not also deplorable with Sen. McCain?

I comment:

This is one time when the "yes-but-they-do-it-too" refrain from Pastor Fienen is wrong wrong wrong. Senator McCain was by choice a public figure. The shots at him were taken by a man running for the highest office in the land, in a way designed to further that man's career. There can be no comparison. None at all.


Yes, Sen. McCain was a public figure, a politician.  And yes, Candidate Trump's pot shots at him were deplorable.  To make retribution for those insults a feature of the funeral does not bring any sort of healing but simply serves to keep the feud and the hurts alive.  Also the politicking at the funeral went beyond simply striking back at Trump's deplorable comments.


You have a funny idea of what funerals are for if you consider a political rally an appropriate element for a church funeral.  If one is a public figure, does that mean that everything that they do, everything that is done for them must be political?


Quote
Pastor Fienen again:
After the Parkland shootings and many others, those deaths were exploited to score political points and push a political agenda.  Was that acceptable in a way that politicizing the death of Mollie Tibbetts is not?

Me again:

Yes, and it is deplorable that anyone would think otherwise.


Please explain why it is different to politicize the deaths in the Parkland shooting and to politicize the death of Mollie Tibbetts?  And that it is deplorable not to hold them as different.  The only difference that I see is that you approve of the political agenda being pushed after the Parkland shooting and do not approve of the agenda being pushed after the death of Mollie Tibbetts.


Quote
Pastor Fienen:
A single standard of not using tragedies or the deaths of loved ones as political fodder I think would be far superior to a double standard where some deaths and some tragedies that lend themselves to support for political causes are fair game for exploitation and others, on the other side are not.
Me:

You cannot possibly be that naοve or really think that there is some "standard." But consider the cases based on what I cited upstream. One involves all public, political, civic figures. One does not. And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families.


Perhaps I am naοve to hope that some reverence is left in our society, we see so little of it on the Right or on the Left.  "One involves all public, political, civic figures."  Am I to take that to mean that if one is a public figure one cannot expect to be remembered at just a funeral without it becoming a political rally?  Has it become mandatory that the deaths of public figures become political events and the human activities of remembrance and paying of respects be set aside for political theater?


"And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families."  I am trying to unpack this.  Guns were a proximate cause of the deaths at Parkland.  An illegal alien was allegedly a proximate cause of the death of Mollie Tibbetts.  Am I to take it to mean that if her father had chosen to use her death to raise awareness of illegal aliens and the need for stricter boarder controls that would have been fine and acceptable?  Or was it that you are totally in favor of stricter gun control measures that you find the use of the Parkland deaths to push for gun control good while the use of the death of Mollie Tibbetts to push for stricter boarder controls is unacceptable because you are totally against such controls?  Or is it that some of buzz about boarder controls came from "the man in the white house."  It wasn't just family and friends after Parkland that used those deaths to push a political agenda.


Quote
Pastor Fienen:
Cashing in his death to score cheap shots at political opponents, even those he himself opposed, in unworthy of him and of those who honor his memory.
Me:
Are you serious? Are you thinking? It is those who "honor his memory" who brought those words into the setting in order to - wait for it - honor his memory. And by they way, if you will think more carefully, as I am sure you are able of doing, they were hardly "cheap shots." They were eloquent, tearful, heartfelt, laments on the situation.
Want to hear a cheap shot? Listen to the man who said these words: "I like people who weren't captured." (or any of several hundred other blurtings and tweets).



There can be no question but what Pres. Trump is a master of the cheap shot.  And that is not to his credit.  Apparently he is to be held responsible for every cheap shot that he has uttered and everybody should castigate him for it.  The cheap shots uttered by others in politics, especially those who oppose Trump, are to be taken as business as usual. 


But that aside, is a church funeral, even of a politician, now to be an opportunity for a political rally, even for a cause that the deceased supported?  Maybe so, and I think that we as a nation are poorer for it.  Nothing is sacred anymore, from any side.  If the family and friends of Sen. McCain wanted to continue his political legacy or political feud with Pres. Trump, that is their privilege and their right.  But did they have to do it at his funeral?  One of the things that Sen. McCain was known for was reaching out across the aisle, reaching out to political opponents and rivals, and Trump.  Rather there was the sharpening of barbs and arrows and nurturing of grudges and feuds.  Few wounds were healed, rather salt was distributed to make sure the wounds would fester.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 04, 2018, 03:26:11 PM

Another observation.


We also had this past week the funeral of Aretha Franklin.  Given her prominence in the world of entertainment, and the number of figures from the world of entertainment paying their respects, it was inevitable that her funeral would become quite a production.  But it also became at times quite political, even from one of pastors involved.  In this case the politics was not exactly pleasing to her family.  Since she was a prominent public figure, should her family have expected politics to intrude?  Was it right and proper that it do so?


Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: peter_speckhard on September 04, 2018, 04:07:43 PM
Should the body of a slain enemy be paraded around the city? Why or why not?
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: TERJr on September 08, 2018, 06:26:37 PM
Should the body of a slain enemy be paraded around the city? Why or why not?
To avenge one’s gay lover, perhaps, but otherwise it’s right out of the question.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 08, 2018, 09:30:22 PM
The McCain family obviously loved their father/spouse very much. A short while ago a loudmouthed, craven bully who never did anything for his country made light of their loved one's sacrifice. And then an opportunity arose to pay that loud mouthed coward back. So they took it. Don't know about anyone else on this forum, but they send like my relatives.

POTUS needs to learn the great truth from MIB- "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 08, 2018, 10:09:03 PM
The McCain family obviously loved their father/spouse very much. A short while ago a loudmouthed, craven bully who never did anything for his country made light of their loved one's sacrifice. And then an opportunity arose to pay that loud mouthed coward back. So they took it. Don't know about anyone else on this forum, but they send like my relatives.

POTUS needs to learn the great truth from MIB- "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
I thought that the legacy of John McCain was better than don’t mess with John, we will repay every slight and insult.  Funeral = Payback Time?  Funeral = Settle Old Scores?  Wouldn’t a more fitting tribute have been to hold up the courage, sacrifice, service and the reaching beyond personal and political grudges and feuds to serve the country that graces and decorates Sen. McCain’s finest legacy rather than playing tit for tat payback time with the loudmouth craven bully that’s disgraced himself?
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on September 09, 2018, 12:04:38 AM
Other senators to die in office of which I'm familiar are a couple of mine, John Heinz and Arlen Specter (plane crash and cancer respectively).  Neither of whose service to the country matched McCain. 
As a fellow Pennsylvanian:  Neither of whose service to the Commonwealth they represented produced anything memorable.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Robert Johnson on September 09, 2018, 01:03:15 AM
The McCain family obviously loved their father/spouse very much. A short while ago a loudmouthed, craven bully who never did anything for his country made light of their loved one's sacrifice. And then an opportunity arose to pay that loud mouthed coward back. So they took it.

Cheap payback.  Crass.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 09, 2018, 04:53:04 AM
Or an expression of real pain and sorrow caused when the sacrifice of a beloved husband and father is crudely trashed by the president of the country for whom he suffered and sacrificed.
If you excuse or minimize the president's remarks, then one ought to have some compassion and understanding for what the family said.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: gan ainm on September 09, 2018, 06:01:20 AM
Sometimes being silent is the more dignified response.

(ESV) Mt 26:62 And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.

Mt 27:12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Terry W Culler on September 09, 2018, 08:12:05 AM
I voted for John McCain for president on 2 occasions.  He was an honorable man and worthy of our admiration, for the most part.  That is why I was so angry with the hype around his death and funeral, it demeaned McCain's life and work because it was really another anti-Trump exercise by the media and other leftwing hangers on.  Had McCain made peace with Trump his death would have been written off pretty quickly by the left as good riddance to bad rubbish. 
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Michael Slusser on September 09, 2018, 08:20:13 AM
Sometimes being silent is the more dignified response.

(ESV) Mt 26:62 And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.

Mt 27:12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.

Your point is seconded by Pope Francis with his refusal to answer back to the public attacks against him.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Steven W Bohler on September 09, 2018, 08:23:24 AM
The McCain family obviously loved their father/spouse very much. A short while ago a loudmouthed, craven bully who never did anything for his country made light of their loved one's sacrifice. And then an opportunity arose to pay that loud mouthed coward back. So they took it. Don't know about anyone else on this forum, but they send like my relatives.

POTUS needs to learn the great truth from MIB- "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."

I am assuming that you are referring to President Trump with your "loudmouthed, craven bully" comment.  And, if that is correct, I reject your claim that he has done nothing for our country.  He paid taxes.  His building projects employed a number of people.  As president, his policies have added to the wealth of many citizens.  One could go on, but I think that is sufficient to rebut your claim.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 09, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
Pastor Bohler writes:
I could go on, but I think that is sufficient to rebut your claim.

I comment:
No, it isn’t. Not even close. But there would be no point in discussing that.
McCain’s opposition to the president was the last great and noble thing he did in his life. Therefore, continuing it at his funeral is perfectly appropriate. And it appears that you still remain crassly insensitive to the pain the president caused to McCain’s family And, by extension, to all those who have been prisoners of war.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 09, 2018, 03:10:01 PM
The McCain family obviously loved their father/spouse very much. A short while ago a loudmouthed, craven bully who never did anything for his country made light of their loved one's sacrifice. And then an opportunity arose to pay that loud mouthed coward back. So they took it. Don't know about anyone else on this forum, but they send like my relatives.

POTUS needs to learn the great truth from MIB- "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."

I am assuming that you are referring to President Trump with your "loudmouthed, craven bully" comment.  And, if that is correct, I reject your claim that he has done nothing for our country.  He paid taxes.  His building projects employed a number of people.  As president, his policies have added to the wealth of many citizens.  One could go on, but I think that is sufficient to rebut your claim.

Really? You are going to compare Trump's payment of taxes, after his attorneys and accountants make sure they are at the lowest, with McCain's life of service? That's the best you can muster? The only decent thing that can be said about the current occupant of the Oval Office is that he is not HRC.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Charles Austin on September 09, 2018, 03:20:38 PM
Furthermore, we don’t know whether Trump paid his taxes or at what cheapskate level, because he won’t release his returns.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 09, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
Furthermore, we don’t know whether Trump paid his taxes or at what cheapskate level, because he won’t release his returns.

Well, I was going to refrain from putting that particular boot in, but yeah. And let's be honest, the start of his "fortune" was made sucking up to the government teat with various programs. He isn't a Randian ubermensch.

He is best described by a quote from the original and far superior House of Cards UK. He has "absolutely no informing principle but the will to survive, just a plump little bag of squirming appetites!"

Does it say nothing to you that two men who often violently disagree on matters political and theological seem to be of one accord on this?

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Coach-Rev on September 10, 2018, 09:03:57 AM
I'm not a moderator here, (but I play one on TV?), however I would respectfully request that this thread be closed, as it has most definitely run it's course and has taken the usual ugly turn that so many threads on here do.  (yes, I've been guilty of contributing to that in the past as well).

Thank you, all, for illustrating just how deep the divide continues to be and how few are willing to acknowledge anything at all about the "other side."
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 10, 2018, 02:16:18 PM
Does it say nothing to you that two men who often violently disagree on matters political and theological seem to be of one accord on this?

Yes, it says that Trump Derangement Syndrome is not discriminatory.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Linda on September 10, 2018, 03:05:08 PM
What can God be thinking using such a man as Trump -- guilty of adultery, intemperate speech, awful family man, extravagant w/ his money.....

Linda
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 10, 2018, 03:27:46 PM
You realize don’t you that Trump  Derangement Syndrome is nothing new.  There was Obama Derangement Syndrome (although much more on the right then), Bush, Clinton, going back at least to Reagan.  The Trump outbreak does seem a more virulent strain than with his predecessors.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: gan ainm on September 10, 2018, 06:25:03 PM
You realize don’t you that Trump  Derangement Syndrome is nothing new.  There was Obama Derangement Syndrome (although much more on the right then), Bush, Clinton, going back at least to Reagan.  The Trump outbreak does seem a more virulent strain than with his predecessors.

Organisms develop resistance to pesticides, antibiotics, and trolls such as we experience on this forum that display rabid TDS.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 10, 2018, 07:29:51 PM
Does it say nothing to you that two men who often violently disagree on matters political and theological seem to be of one accord on this?

Yes, it says that Trump Derangement Syndrome is not discriminatory.

The fact that since the late 1980s I have had the full measure of the Mamzer in Chief does not mean I have TDS. It means I was in the Metro NY area when he placed an ad that pretty well called for the judicial lynching of 5 men of color for the rape and assault of a white woman. It would have been pretty egregious if the men in question had been guilty. Given the fact that they were innocent, makes it even worse. Trump is no better than Al Sharpton who has still to repent of the Tawana Brawley case. 30+ years on, and Trump still wants them dead. THIS is your morally upright political leader?

We will, God willing, get one or perhaps two (maybe three?) Supreme Court justices, who seem to be excellent candidates despite, not because, of Trump. I can live with that. And I can live with the fact that alternative would have been in many ways far worse. Just please don't tell a New Yorker who has experienced the man that he is anything other than a schmuck.

And yeah- the cheap shot about an aviator POW rankles hard. It's why I detest Al Gore and Dan Quayle and the way they treated VADM Stockdale during the Vice Presidential debate.

Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 10, 2018, 08:42:57 PM
Yes, but he's our schmuck. And he's accomplishing good things.
Title: Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on September 10, 2018, 11:02:48 PM
God used King Cyrus of Persia to return the Jews from their Babylonian exile.  I doubt that he was of stellar character.

Even David, the ancestor of Christ according to the flesh was quite fleshly minded and was described as "a great lover of women."