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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Matt Hummel on January 25, 2018, 10:09:00 AM

Title: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Matt Hummel on January 25, 2018, 10:09:00 AM
Christians have traditionally taught in regards to soteriology that only that which is assumed (by Christ) can be saved. We believe that Jesus is fully human.

So- at what point did the Divine Logos take on his full humanity? As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question. But I would be interested in what others, especially those who are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" would say.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: readselerttoo on January 25, 2018, 10:33:47 AM
In the Unaltered Augsburg Confession it states that the Son of God took on human flesh in the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary.   Kinda puts a case forward for pro-life IMO
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: David Garner on January 25, 2018, 12:01:41 PM
Christians have traditionally taught in regards to soteriology that only that which is assumed (by Christ) can be saved. We believe that Jesus is fully human.

So- at what point did the Divine Logos take on his full humanity? As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question. But I would be interested in what others, especially those who are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" would say.

I fear this leads us into one of those discussions where, before it's over, someone is going to be using a speculum on the Blessed Virgin to see where in the mechanical process we are.

But you are correct, the celebration of the Annunciation seems as reasonable a place as any to mark Christ's becoming human. 

For what it's worth, the Troparion and Kontakion for the Annunciation are as follows:

Troparion (Tone 4) –

Today is the beginning of our salvation,
The revelation of the eternal mystery!
The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin
As Gabriel announces the coming of Grace.
Together with him let us cry to the Theotokos:
Rejoice, O Full of Grace,
The Lord is with You!

Kontakion (Tone 8) –

O Victorious Leader of Triumphant Hosts!
We, your servants, delivered from evil, sing our grateful thanks to you, O Theotokos!
As you possess invincible might, set us free from every calamity
So that we may sing: Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!


Note:  "The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin AS Gabriel announces the coming of Grace.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Harry Edmon on January 25, 2018, 02:08:13 PM
Another example of Christ's "humiliation".   He starts His humanity as a one cell human being.  Can't get more humble than that!
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Matt Hummel on January 25, 2018, 02:56:04 PM
Another example of Christ's "humiliation".   He starts His humanity as a one cell human being.  Can't get more humble than that!

Harry- I am jealous of the power of your statement. Thanks!
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on January 25, 2018, 04:40:13 PM
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Harry Edmon on January 25, 2018, 04:58:58 PM
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on January 25, 2018, 05:36:40 PM
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.


The challenge is easily solved by pairing this Gerhardt text with the St. Theodulph tune commonly associated with All Glory, Laud, and Honor

"O Lord, How Shall I Meet Thee"
by Paul Gerhardt, 1607-1676


1. O Lord, how shall I meet Thee,
How welcome Thee aright?
Thy people long to greet Thee,
My Hope, my heart's Delight!
O kindle, Lord, most holy,
Thy lamp within my breast
To do in spirit lowly
All that may please Thee best.

2. Thy Zion strews before Thee
Green boughs and fairest palms,
And I, too, will adore Thee
With joyous songs and psalms.
My heart shall bloom forever
For Thee with praises new
And from Thy name shall never
Withhold the honor due.

3. I lay in fetters, groaning,
Thou com'st to set me free;
I stood, my shame bemoaning,
Thou com'st to honor me;
A glory Thou dost give me,
A treasure safe on high,
That will not fail or leave me
As earthly riches fly.

4. Love caused Thy incarnation,
Love brought Thee down to me;
Thy thirst for my salvation
Procured my liberty.
O love beyond all telling,
That led Thee to embrace,
In love all love excelling,
Our lost and fallen race!

5. Rejoice, then, ye sad-hearted,
Who sit in deepest gloom,
Who mourn o'er joys departed
And tremble at your doom.
Despair not, He is near you,
Yea, standing at the door,
Who best can help and cheer you
And bids you weep no more.

6. Ye need not toil nor languish
Nor ponder day and night
How in the midst of anguish
Ye draw Him by your might.
He comes, He comes all willing,
Moved by His love alone,
Your woes and troubles stilling;
For all to Him are known.

7. Sin's debt, that fearful burden,
Let not your souls distress;
Your guilt the Lord will pardon
And cover by His grace.
He comes, for men procuring
The peace of sin forgiven,
For all God's sons securing
Their heritage in heaven.

8. What though the foes be raging,
Heed not their craft and spite;
Your Lord, the battle waging,
Will scatter all their might.
He comes, a King most glorious,
And all His earthly foes
In vain His course victorious
Endeavor to oppose.

9. He comes to judge the nations,
A terror to His foes,
A Light of consolations
And blessed Hope to those
Who love the Lord's appearing.
O glorious Sun, now come,
Send forth Thy beams so cheering,
An guide us safely home.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on January 25, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
Since Orthodox Pascha falls one week later than Western Easter this year, the Great Feast of the Annunciation will not coincide with Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church, but rather with the Fifth Sunday of Great Lent which is normally devoted to Mary of Egypt.   

Mary of Egypt Sunday will be entirely suppressed for the Great Feast, however, her marvelous Vita set down by Patriarch Sophronios of Jerusalem will be read in its entirety in many parishes on the preceding Thursday (or Wednesday evening).

This incredible story of repentance and redemption can be read here:

http://www.antiochian.org/stmaryofegypt (http://www.antiochian.org/stmaryofegypt)

Troparion – Tone 8

    The image of God was truly preserved in you, mother,
    for you took up the Cross and followed Christ.
    By so doing, you taught us to disregard the flesh, for it passes away,
    but to care instead for the soul, since it is immortal.
    Therefore your spirit, holy mother Mary, rejoices with the angels!

There is much to ponder about this "Sunday of Two Marys" and the contrast between the repentant harlot and the Unwedded Bride.   For the Unwedded Bride, the Cross taken up was the sword which pierced her soul.  For the repentant harlot, it was the extreme mortification of her once-sinful flesh.

Yet in through this contrast there is an excellent portal into the great mysteries of our redemption which are essence of Holy Week.

Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Eileen Smith on January 25, 2018, 06:34:04 PM
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.

Lutherans for Life has a page of resources for the Annunciation.  https://www.lutheransforlife.org/article/the-annunciation-of-our-lord-march-25/ (https://www.lutheransforlife.org/article/the-annunciation-of-our-lord-march-25/)
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on January 25, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
So I wonder what a self-identified Christian who is also pro-abortion (or, if he or she prefers, pro-"choice") might do with the Annunciation? Just another fetus that Mary could have done away with if there had been a Roe vs. Wade back then?
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Charles Austin on January 25, 2018, 07:47:27 PM
Yeah, that's it, Pastor Gard, you got it. Those of us who do not oppose the current laws regarding abortion think that every pregnant woman has to consider abortion. Nice way to derail the discussion about our Lord's humanity and get in a few more whacks at people who do not agree with you.
Can anything be discussed for more than four comments before it turns into this kind of get-the-awful-liberals nastiness? I doubt it.

Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Matt Hummel on January 25, 2018, 08:17:42 PM
Yeah, that's it, Pastor Gard, you got it. Those of us who do not oppose the current laws regarding abortion think that every pregnant woman has to consider abortion. Nice way to derail the discussion about our Lord's humanity and get in a few more whacks at people who do not agree with you.
Can anything be discussed for more than four comments before it turns into this kind of get-the-awful-liberals nastiness? I doubt it.

Can you actually ever answer the question to hand and not take personal umbrage? If you  don't like the topic, don't comment. You have freedom of choice in this matter.

When do you think Jesus became fully human, or does the answer cause any problems for you?
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Matt Hummel on January 25, 2018, 08:45:44 PM
Well, with one apparent notable exception, there seems to be consensus as to when Jesus assumed full humanity. So then the next question is, when do we take on our full humanity? And what does that mean for the Church's witness in key issues?
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Steven W Bohler on January 25, 2018, 09:04:51 PM
Well, the Baby DID "threaten" her life: as an unmarried pregnant woman, whose fiancé was not the father of the Child, she could have been stoned to death, right?  So, under the arguments advanced by some here, Mary would have been justified in aborting the Child.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Charles Austin on January 25, 2018, 10:28:51 PM
Pastor Bohler, in the generation before ours, and well into the 1940s every pregnancy threatened the life of the mother. My father's first wife and their child died in childbirth in the 1930s, when as many as 1/4 of the women who delivered children either died in delivery or developed "childbed fever," a series of infections that were often fatal. It was the development of penicillin that helped alleviate this potentially deadly aspect of pregnancy.
And it does not matter whether the Blessed Mother would have been "justified" in terminating the pregnancy; because terminating a pregnancy is not automatically "justified." It is a choice which must be made; and we are already told in scripture that Mary, though astonished and presumably fearful, believed and said "let it be" to her pregnancy.
I do not see much of theological import or pastoral significance in back-and-forthing over when Jesus became fully human. We have no way of knowing much about that, and since we teach that the Word was the Word in the beginning and forever, maybe he was human even before there were humans.
We can know, I believe, that he was human when he walked the earth, taught, suffered, died and was buried.
C'est suffi, satis est.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: scott9 on January 25, 2018, 10:55:32 PM
...when as many as 1/4 of the women who delivered children either died in delivery or developed "childbed fever," a series of infections that were often fatal.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on January 26, 2018, 12:00:06 AM
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.

No, we'll move it from Palm Sunday.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on January 26, 2018, 12:37:32 AM
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.

No, we'll move it from Palm Sunday.

Recalling many conversations through the years of colluding with Dr. Philip Pfatteicher in preparing our separate calender manuscripts:

Western practice is to transfer to the first available weekday.   In contemporary Roman Catholic practice this would be Easter Monday, April 2.  Dr. Pfatteicher and I opted to follow traditional Anglican practice which treats Easter Week/Bright Week/Renewal Week with the same dignity and gravitas as Holy Week, meaning that the first available weekday would be Monday April 9.

In parish practice I did both.   The Easter Monday transfer always felt awkward.   Not so with the longer deferral.

Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: peter_speckhard on January 26, 2018, 08:19:47 AM
I think I've shared before that one of my favorite scenes in the classic movie Life is Beautiful is when a doctor, who is passionately into riddles and having riddle contests with his friends, is examining the Jewish prisoners while trying to figure out a mysterious riddle he hasn't been able to solve. The answer to the riddle is obviously "a duck." The main character in the movie is an old friend of the doctor, also a riddle hobbyist, and happens to be one of the prisoners being examined, and he tells the doctor as much. It is obvious. Lesser riddlers than the doctor could figure that out. But, the doctor says, he has been assured by the firend who sent him the riddle that the answer is not a duck, so now this riddle is driving him insane.

The great thing about the scene about the scene is that the doctor is struggling with this riddle while examining people whom he has been assured aren't people in the technical sense, which drives the underlying insanity of the whole movie. They obviously are people. Lesser lights than one with a medical degree could figure that out. The idea that they aren't, or only are in quasi-uman sense, is a prely agenda driven idea.     

Listening to people who think abortion should be a legal choice struggle to deal with basic questions about the nature of humanity gives me the same impression as watching the doctor. The answer is "a duck." The aborted thing is a person. Whoever assured you otherwise was wrong, blinded by an agenda, or just messing with your head. Don't let it drive you insane.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Coach-Rev on January 26, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
...when as many as 1/4 of the women who delivered children either died in delivery or developed "childbed fever," a series of infections that were often fatal.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

now, there you go again, letting facts ruin a good hysterical argument...
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Matt Hummel on January 27, 2018, 06:16:14 PM
I do not see much of theological import or pastoral significance in back-and-forthing over when Jesus became fully human. We have no way of knowing much about that, and since we teach that the Word was the Word in the beginning and forever, maybe he was human even before there were humans.
We can know, I believe, that he was human when he walked the earth, taught, suffered, died and was buried.
C'est suffi, satis est.

Charles- first, and before I say anything else, thank you for an honest response. Not that I would expect anything but, I just want to acknowledge that.

It is here that you and I must part ways. I see questions like this of utmost seriousness for pastoral reasons. An aptly named book of recent vintage sums up why. Its title is The Cruelty of Heresy. Spiritual laetrile has no business being peddled to God's children.

This particular issue is of interest for me because of a time I found myself in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament whilst still a Lutheran. I was unable to go to the March for Life that year with my family because I had a board meeting for a Social Service agency whose primary mission is to help the children and adults who are being extirpated by the lovely, progressive, informed socialists of Iceland and Denmark.

I looked at my Lord up there on the Altar  and I thought of how he took on our flesh. I thought of that moment of Mary's "Fiat" and I thought of what I had learned from Clarence Lee of blessed memory, that "Only that which is assumed can be saved." I thought of Jesus taking on our human nature, to use Henry's words- "He starts His humanity as a one cell human being.  Can't get more humble than that!"

But then as well the insight of St. John Paul- that Christ came not only to show us the fullness of God, but the fullness of humanity- and that therefore all humans, like Jesus, receive their humanity in that wondrous moment when a new creation comes into being. If Christ is fully human from that moment, then so is every human. Even those terribly inconvenient. Even those disabled or deformed. Even those whose fathers are violent criminals, or predatory monsters.

That is why it is for people like me so important to ascertain why. Fungibility for Jesus' humanity allows for fungibility for everyone's humanity. And history has taught us that once some person or group's humanity is up for grabs, it is a question of when and not if, they will be marked for enslavement and death.

That is why I, at least, can not adopt your laissez faire approach to this issue.

My prayer is that one day you will be as foolish and as narrow minded as me.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Charles Austin on January 28, 2018, 05:29:02 AM
Mr. Hummel, I'm not sure mine is a laissez faire approach. I just do not feel the need to unpack, turn over, or poke at every single aspect of particular doctrines.
    My "revelation" or whatever into the depth of faith that I believe has sustained me all these years emerged slowly, beginning with my confirmation instruction and my involvement with "church" as a teenager. I went through the usual "struggles" - Bible, evolution, doctrine, "Lutheran," morality etc. etc. - and the faith held.
   Systematic theology in seminary - under Carl Braaten mostly - and the writings of Anders Nygren, Gustav Aulen, Paul Tillich, and a few others - took strong hold on me. Some tutelage by George Forell also helped.
   I found people in my parishes with strong faith, most of them knew the Bible, they knew Jesus, they knew prayer and the sacraments (although the liturgical movement of the 1960s was a huge help), and they were confident in their faith. We "unpacked" it in sermons, Bible studies and elsewhere, but we did not need to poke at it or tear off and chew on chunks of it. We certainly did see how the ways we express and practice our faith were evolving. It was not the "church" of my childhood, and that was a good thing.
   In my work in the secular world, the scene was a little different. It's a long story, and I had a great time taking all my "theological churchiness" into that realm.
   Today, perhaps I'm an "evangelical Catholic/Lutheran minimalist," that is, I preach, teach, and try to practice the faith and lead people in the faith as I see it and as the Church, both globally and as the ULCA, LCA, and ELCA have taught it to me. Some people see it "my" way, most see it "sort of" in line with the historic faith and Lutheranism, and some don't.
   I am cautious in dealing with the "don'ts," lest I make it too hard for them to believe or stay with the community that is the Body of Christ.
   And that last term, perhaps, prevails. We varied and imperfectfolks are the community, the fellowship, the sacramental "thing" that is the Body of Christ. He creates it, calls us to it, and sustains us in it.
   Jesus, too, still has work to do on all of us; and I just can't get too bent out of shape by those whose imperfections are different from mine. Nor can I nail down every plank in the doctrinal floor, or insist what color we have to paint every room.
   It's God's house, it is our Lord's Body, and neither the church Catholic nor the Lutheran confessions get it all right. I'm pretty sure we have the essentials right, and I'll express confidence in those essentials. I still like my tomes of systematics. But nothing in them is really forever.
   Because God is still at work. That's sometimes troubling, but it's also exciting.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Eileen Smith on January 29, 2018, 08:19:00 AM
Mr. Hummel, I'm not sure mine is a laissez faire approach. I just do not feel the need to unpack, turn over, or poke at every single aspect of particular doctrines.
    My "revelation" or whatever into the depth of faith that I believe has sustained me all these years emerged slowly, beginning with my confirmation instruction and my involvement with "church" as a teenager. I went through the usual "struggles" - Bible, evolution, doctrine, "Lutheran," morality etc. etc. - and the faith held.
   Systematic theology in seminary - under Carl Braaten mostly - and the writings of Anders Nygren, Gustav Aulen, Paul Tillich, and a few others - took strong hold on me. Some tutelage by George Forell also helped.
   I found people in my parishes with strong faith, most of them knew the Bible, they knew Jesus, they knew prayer and the sacraments (although the liturgical movement of the 1960s was a huge help), and they were confident in their faith. We "unpacked" it in sermons, Bible studies and elsewhere, but we did not need to poke at it or tear off and chew on chunks of it. We certainly did see how the ways we express and practice our faith were evolving. It was not the "church" of my childhood, and that was a good thing.
   In my work in the secular world, the scene was a little different. It's a long story, and I had a great time taking all my "theological churchiness" into that realm.
   Today, perhaps I'm an "evangelical Catholic/Lutheran minimalist," that is, I preach, teach, and try to practice the faith and lead people in the faith as I see it and as the Church, both globally and as the ULCA, LCA, and ELCA have taught it to me. Some people see it "my" way, most see it "sort of" in line with the historic faith and Lutheranism, and some don't.
   I am cautious in dealing with the "don'ts," lest I make it too hard for them to believe or stay with the community that is the Body of Christ.
   And that last term, perhaps, prevails. We varied and imperfectfolks are the community, the fellowship, the sacramental "thing" that is the Body of Christ. He creates it, calls us to it, and sustains us in it.
   Jesus, too, still has work to do on all of us; and I just can't get too bent out of shape by those whose imperfections are different from mine. Nor can I nail down every plank in the doctrinal floor, or insist what color we have to paint every room.
   It's God's house, it is our Lord's Body, and neither the church Catholic nor the Lutheran confessions get it all right. I'm pretty sure we have the essentials right, and I'll express confidence in those essentials. I still like my tomes of systematics. But nothing in them is really forever.
   Because God is still at work. That's sometimes troubling, but it's also exciting.

I do understand what you are saying here and, in some ways, agree.  I think of a Presbyterian woman who came from Pittsburgh to live with her daughter and became a member of our congregation.  After 90+ years in the Presbyterian church she admitted that she simply could not see the sacrament as anything but a symbol.  She wasn't beaten over the head until she 'got it.'  The pastor simply told her, "that's okay" and brought great comfort to this woman. 

I think what happens in the private conversation is a bit different than what is proclaimed from the pulpit.  I don't mean to suggest it throws the theology of the church out the window, but there is a certain grace that fits the situation, as shared above.

That being said, I think we need to be honest about our own church body.  I wish I had jotted down Marva Dawn's comment when she spoke to a gathering of ELCA and LCMS rostered leaders - something to the effect that the LCMS might have a little too much law while the ELCA might have a little too much love.  But please don't read 'love' as in the sense we should part ourselves on the back, for how could one love too much!  It was more a love that opens itself up to teachings contrary to scripture.

While there are some in the LCMS that might lean a little bit too heavily on pure doctrine, there are those in the ELCA that might lean a little too much on bending and twisting scripture until it reads as they wish it in order to support their agenda.  That is as dangerous if not more so. 

In diaconal studies I had many excellent instructors, but one surpasses - from the LCMS, David Benke.  He never equivocated - ever - but always with grace (and a bit of humor).   If both our judicatories could come a bit closer to the middle and emulate pastors such as Pastor Benke,  we would (both) be a stronger church.  I just hope he doesn't give up his day job for life as a basketball star!
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 29, 2018, 08:45:24 AM
Pastor Bohler, in the generation before ours, and well into the 1940s every pregnancy threatened the life of the mother. My father's first wife and their child died in childbirth in the 1930s, when as many as 1/4 of the women who delivered children either died in delivery or developed "childbed fever," a series of infections that were often fatal. It was the development of penicillin that helped alleviate this potentially deadly aspect of pregnancy.
And it does not matter whether the Blessed Mother would have been "justified" in terminating the pregnancy; because terminating a pregnancy is not automatically "justified." It is a choice which must be made; and we are already told in scripture that Mary, though astonished and presumably fearful, believed and said "let it be" to her pregnancy.
I do not see much of theological import or pastoral significance in back-and-forthing over when Jesus became fully human. We have no way of knowing much about that, and since we teach that the Word was the Word in the beginning and forever, maybe he was human even before there were humans.
We can know, I believe, that he was human when he walked the earth, taught, suffered, died and was buried.
C'est suffi, satis est.
As has been pointed out, your statistics are inflated.  While infant and maternal mortality rates were unacceptably high, they were not as high as you suggest.  Not only penicillin but improved hygiene brought those rates down.


What is even more unacceptable is that the maternal death rate in the United States during pregnancy, delivery and post-partem is the highest of the developed world and climbing.  There are serious problems with our health care system in this area.
Title: Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
Post by: Mike Bennett on January 29, 2018, 03:01:20 PM
Christians have traditionally taught in regards to soteriology that only that which is assumed (by Christ) can be saved. We believe that Jesus is fully human.

So- at what point did the Divine Logos take on his full humanity? As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question. But I would be interested in what others, especially those who are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" would say.

When (or the blink of an eye after) his mother said, "Let it be to me according to your word." Given December 25 as the day we celebrate his birth, I'm with you on March 25.